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View Full Version : Why does it seem everyone is trying to give Marvcus Patton the boot?


jAZ
04-25-2001, 12:11 PM
So why does it appear that everyone is down on Marvcus? Is it a facination with Maz or something else? I just don't get it...

Some interesting comments from his KCChiefs.com 2000 bio...
* Ranked second on the team with 143 tackles (112 solo), two forced fumbles, a fumble recovery, 1.0 sack, six passes defensed, five QB pressures and two INTs, including a 24-yard TD return
* Anchored the Chiefs defense from his middle linebacker post and earned the club’s Derrick Thomas Award in ’99, a honor given annually to Kansas City’s Most Valuable Player
* Infused the Arrowhead locker room with his professionalism and commitment to being the very best
* Incredibly, saw duty on all of Kansas City’s 1,078 defensive snaps from his middle linebacker post a year ago
* Can play any linebacker position, but is most comfortable on the inside

I don't want this guy off the field ever!

ExtremeChief
04-25-2001, 01:09 PM
I think the main factor may be age...I think he will still be with us next year, and maybe the new system will let him flourish. It would be nice to have more youth at linebacker though. He won't be around forever, and it would be nice to have a strong backup.



now bush on the other hand...

keg in kc
04-25-2001, 01:53 PM
He's 34 and has lost more than one step.

He has not shown up for preseason workouts.

He was a Washington Redskin. I hate all things associated with the Redskins, so I will be forever biased against him (the same can be said for Trent Green, too, I'm just keeping it under much better control)


* Ranked second on the team with 143 tackles (112 solo), two forced fumbles, a fumble recovery, 1.0 sack, six passes defensed, five QB pressures and two INTs, including a 24-yard TD return

Tackle stats must be considered with a grain of salt. They are not an official NFL stat and are calculated only by individual teams. KC attributed more than 150 tackles to Donnie Edwards last season, as well, which I find equally hard to believe. He may have been second on the team, but this also ignores factors like tackles at, behind or beyond the line of scrimmage, and I have a feeling the lion's share of his tackles were past the line of scrimmage.

* Infused the Arrowhead locker room with his professionalism and commitment to being the very best

How could you possibly know this...


* Incredibly, saw duty on all of Kansas City’s 1,078 defensive snaps from his middle linebacker post a year ago.

That's impossible since according to the Chiefs, he had a long string of consecutive starts broken when we started the Rams game with a defensive package which had 6 d-backs.


* Can play any linebacker position, but is most comfortable on the inside

I'd be happy if he played one position well, instead of flourishing in mediocrity all over the field.


I want a young lion, not an old, toothless house cat.

ct
04-25-2001, 01:57 PM
His 2000 stats:

88 tackles
71 solo
23 assists
0 FF
1 sack
4 passes defensed
2 INT
1 TD

Big drop off, appeared slow on run coverage, missed out on many
plays he made the year before. Fear is he has hit the wall.
Has he? Got me, but I'm interested in seeing Maz start in the middle,
to see what he can really do. Unfortunately, that leaves Marv as
the odd man out of the middle.

ct

old_geezer
04-25-2001, 02:49 PM
Patton had a good 1st year for us but slumped badly last year. It seemed like anyone who wanted to run on us could last year. Not exactly a ringing endorsement for a MLB.
I wouldn't mind bringing him into camp to see if he had anything left, but I'd rather count on him as a backup at most.

Clint in Wichita
04-25-2001, 02:56 PM
It's time for Maz to get a shot.

Patton is too old & too light in the arse to play for my defense!!

If Clemons shows nothing in training camp, I say plug in Beisel as well. The guy was an animal at K-State, and his measurables are crazy. Clemons appears to be just another lazy end with a boiler.

KCWolfman
04-25-2001, 05:49 PM
Patton is still a tackler - something our team is sorely missing. In his career (including last year) he is ALWAYS in the top three in total tackles. To waste him is foolish.

KCWolfman
04-25-2001, 05:50 PM
Ouch! After the loss to the Kings, I'd better change my .gif

morphius
04-25-2001, 08:32 PM
Until someone can prove to me otherwise I'm going with the fact that Kurt's stop the pass first philosophy put our LB's in situations that were not advantagous to stopping the run, and from the look of most of the lineup's not very good at stopping the pass either.

Both Edwards and Patton are the type of players that like to attack and react, not sit back and react. If anyone remebers when Patton first came to the Chiefs he said he liked the way we played D more because it fit his style of attacking more. Last year the coaches felt that we needed to back off and not play that style, and both Edwards and Patton stopped being the playmakers they once were. Doesn't seem like an odd coincidence to me.

Russ - I have felt to bad to say anything about the wings, I'm still in shock that they lost after those first 2 games. What kind of playoffs is it when the Av's and the wings don't go at it? Of course the fact that it was an Av's player that sunk you was kind of nifty.

Morphius
Somehow started using words like nifty...

NaptownChief
04-25-2001, 08:41 PM
Being that we didn't address the postition at all in the draft, Patton is probably our best option at this point...He is not what he once was and would be best suited as a back up but he still has a little bit left in the tank...We could do much worse....

ExtremeChief
04-25-2001, 09:08 PM
Profile, then edit options, change avatar. You will have to unselect no at the top and choose yes...then you can put in a url for the avatar (gif.) or upload it from your comp. I had a hard time finding one that was 50x50 pixels (the limit). Most avatars are 48X60. Hence, the alienhead.


doesn't know the truth is still out there...

jAZ
04-25-2001, 09:08 PM
so where do you go to change your .gif? I made the mistake of not adding one when I set up my account, and I couldn't find it under "Profile"...

If anyone can give me the link sequence, I would appriciate it.

Chiefnj
04-25-2001, 09:19 PM
I rarely agree with Russ, but here I will. Much of the criticism thrown at Patton is undeserved. None of our LBs excelled last year. Donnie Edwards has fantastic speed and had zero sacks, that is an indictment of piss poor coaching. All of our LB's were forced to play back and defend the pass first because of our inexperienced secondary.

We need veteran leadership. He is a good role model, works hard, keeps himself in great shape. I think he is still an asset.

Phobia
04-25-2001, 09:58 PM
I totally agree. Our LB corps was handicapped by the sceme last year. EVERYONE's numbers were off and it cost Edwards the pro-bowl. Patton will be back next year. Maz, Patton, & Edwards will be one of the more spectacular LB corps in the league. Mark my words!

jAZ
04-25-2001, 10:42 PM
Originally posted by ExtremeChief
Profile, then edit options, change avatar. You will have to unselect no at the top and choose yes...then you can put in a url for the avatar (gif.) or upload it from your comp. I had a hard time finding one that was 50x50 pixels (the limit). Most avatars are 48X60. Hence, the alienhead.


Thanks for the info.

FYI, the image i wanted was larger than 50x50, but I was able to open it up in PhotoShop and resize it down to an allowable size. Suprisingly easy even having not used PhotoShop much.

ChiefGator
04-26-2001, 04:46 AM
Marvcus did have a slump in the beginning of the year and middle, but his play improved as soon as you pulled out Lew Bush and put Maz in his place. With Maz entreanched at OLB (pleez no Bush), and the exit of the Stooges, I think he will have a great year again.

And I have to jump to the defense of Clemons. He started only 12 games last year, and had 7.5 sacks. Also, 75 tackles, 11 for a loss. He was one of the few in our DL that would rush the QB, but would notice the RB running by him with the ball and tackle him in the backfield. He is certainly not the problem with our D-Line.

KC Jones
04-26-2001, 09:40 AM
I also noticed a slump in Patton's play and fear he may have hit the wall regarding age. However, all of our LBs sucked last year with the occasional exception of Maz making a great play. I lay some of that blame at the feet of our DTs and at our scheme. The rule of the land for our D-line was penetrate and wreak havoc. You can make some big plays that way, but you're bound to give up big plays too. That type of DL philospohy especially allows for OGs and the C to get downfield and seal off the LBs. Time and again I watched Patton, Maz, Bush, and Edwards facing off with a linemen from 3-5 yards past the LOS trying to get to the ball carrier.

If we deploy more of a gap responsibility defense we should see remarkably improved play from the LBs. Not too mention we should see better defense of misdirection plays and screens.

Packfan
04-26-2001, 10:33 AM
His first year was decent, but there arent a lot of 34 year old linebackers making an impact in the NFL. As far as the Chiefs linebackers sucking last, you guys are right, but its hardly because of coaching. Number one, they missed their best linebacker (Thomas). Number two, Edwards is overrated, and number three, Lew Bush was Lew Bush. He sucked with the Chargers, why would he be any better with the Chiefs?

I love reading some of the explainations as to why the Chiefs were bad last year. None of it EVER revolves around talent. Its always the coaching. One of the better ones on this thread was the idea that the coaches had the linebackers playing the pass because the secondary was so weak. You mean the linebackers were helping cornerbacks cover wide receivers last year??

I should find a Royals board and see if the same fans are blaming coaching for all of the Royals failures over the last decade. The Royals have marginal talent. Just like the Chiefs. Thats the main reason why they dont win. Its amazing to me that so many fans on here continually point fingers at the coaching staff, no matter who it is.

JOhn
04-26-2001, 10:42 AM
Originally posted by Packfan
Its amazing to me that so many fans on here continually point fingers at the coaching staff, no matter who it is.

No more amazing thn you blaming CP for everything.

jAZ
04-26-2001, 10:43 AM
Originally posted by Packfan
I love reading some of the explanations as to why the Chiefs were bad last year. None of it EVER revolves around talent. Its always the coaching. One of the better ones on this thread was the idea that the coaches had the linebackers playing the pass because the secondary was so weak. You mean the linebackers were helping cornerbacks cover wide receivers last year??

Interesting how the only example you give of your criticism contradicts your point. Calling a secondary "weak" sure sounds like a criticism of the talent.

ChiefGator
04-26-2001, 10:59 AM
And yes, the linebackers were actually assisting in coverage. More often than not it seemed the linebackers started plays by back-pedaling. Not my idea of attacking linebackers. Hopefully GR has them forward pedalling. Donnie almost NEVER rushed the passer.

Just because you lose your star player (DT #58) doesn't mean you should totally change your philosophy. And that is exactly what we did. No more LBers wheeling around the tackles to get to the QB.

Of course, our D-Line really stepped up in that category at least. But, yes, there were coaching issues involved.

As for talent level, I don't think anyone in this thread has defended the talent level of Lew Bush.

Mark

Phobia
04-26-2001, 11:08 AM
1. DT was NOT our best LB any longer - he was our best pass rusher but Edwards had been ouplaying him for a while before untimely demise.

2. WTF games were YOU watching last year, Packfan? You didn't see our LB's 6-8 yards off the ball? How many times did any of them rush the passer? How many times was the scheme's weakness documented in the Star & elsewhere.

You are just being disagreeable to ruffle feathers this morning. You are transparent as hell. Did Big Mean Mr. Busdriver try to touch your peepee loading you on the EZload again this morning?

KC Jones
04-26-2001, 11:13 AM
Originally posted by Packfan


I love reading some of the explainations as to why the Chiefs were bad last year. None of it EVER revolves around talent. Its always the coaching.

All offense intended packfan, but your head is so far up your carl peterson hating @#$ you wouldn't know when the sun was out if you had 3rd degree sunburns. I specifically state that I do fear Patton has turned the corner regarding age. I also imply rather directly that the defensive scheme is only part of the problem. No where do I deny that talent is an issue or that Patton is somehow expected to be great.

My 7 month old son shows more knowledge of football and semantics than you.

Mark M
04-26-2001, 11:43 AM
You mean the linebackers were helping cornerbacks cover wide receivers last year??

Yes. It's called a two-deep zone. If you knew anything about football you'd know that.

MM
~~Getting tired of the troll.

Packfan
04-26-2001, 12:37 PM
Chief fans,

Oppossing teams ran on the Chiefs and they passed on the Chiefs. It didnt matter where your linebackers were. Teams were able to do this, in part, because your linebackers stink.

End of story.

Gaz
04-26-2001, 12:48 PM
Teams were able to do this because our Linebackers were way back in the secondary, where the Stooge put them.

End of story.

xoxo~
Gaz
Once again has to correct a Packfan misstatement.

Packfan
04-26-2001, 12:50 PM
Gaz,

Then why was the Chiefs pass defense so horrible?

jAZ
04-26-2001, 01:44 PM
Originally posted by Packfan
Teams were able to do this, in part, because your linebackers stink.

End of story.

How can you say our problem is LB talent "in part" and have that be the "End of story". What happened to the other part of the story? I hate bad cliffhangers.

~Continuing the storied tradition of self contradiction...

Phobia
04-26-2001, 01:55 PM
pappa -

Word to the wise:

It's not difficult to catch patchfan contradicting himself. Eventually, you will tire of doing so because he'll just skip over your post as though it's not there.

He's kinda fun though. We keep him around. I think of him as a friendly mascot. Just pet him every once in a while and throw him a treat and you'll learn to love him as we do.

Packfan
04-26-2001, 03:45 PM
Phobia,

Thanks for keeping me around and throwing me a bone every now and then.

Contradicitons??? Hardly. I have been quite consistent in what I have been saying. I think you know that.

Gaz
04-26-2001, 04:06 PM
Packfan-

The pass defense was terrible because Schottenheimer had everyone dropping back into that soft zone and teams completed passes at will against us. You should know this is you watched film as you said on another thread.

xoxo~
Gaz
Wondering if this was a rhetorical question.

Packfan
04-26-2001, 04:11 PM
Gaz,

If the three linebackers dropped into the secondary like you and other claim, than passing on the Chiefs shouldnt have been so easy.

You and some of these other guys are looking for scapegoats (coaching) instead of admitting that MAYBE the talent isnt what it needs to be.

Its always coaching. That why this team hasnt won a playoff game in 8 years. Coaching.

Wake up Gaz, you are better than this. Sports teams win because of talent first and foremost. Coaching is very important, but if you dont have the players, forget it. Vince Lombardi couldnt get this team a playoff victory because it doesnt have the talent.

keg in kc
04-26-2001, 04:28 PM
If ignorance is bliss, peckerfan is the happiest man on the face of the earth right now.

Let's take a look at your pathetic LB roster:

45 Donte Curry (Who)
59 Na'il Diggs (was a decent rookie, we'll see)
41 London Dunlap (...)
57 Chris Gizzi (...)
55 Bernardo Harris (finally, someone who's played a little...)
51 Torrance Marshall (rookie)
56 Eugene McCaslin (...)
53 Mike Morton (hey look!! it's special teamer #5...so far)
54 Nate Wayne (yet another unproven player...)
50 K.D. Williams (do any of your LBs actually play anything but special teams?)

Yeah, with that group of "horses" I can sure see why you're so down on the KC linebacker corps...

Gaz
04-26-2001, 04:41 PM
Packfan-

As I said already, teams passed underneath the dropping LBs. It was a fairly simple concept to grasp, although Schottenheimer never did figure it out.

You mentioned watching film of the Chiefs games. How is it that you did not see this ugly phenomenon unfolding?

xoxo~
Gaz
Pretty sure passengers in commercial jets could see it and wonders why Packfan did not.

ExtremeChief
04-26-2001, 04:42 PM
Sports teams win because of talent first and foremost. Coaching is very important, but if you dont have the players, forget it.



If this is the case, what happened to the Redskins this past year??? Or the 90's Raiders, who most will agree were one of the most talented teams on paper.


thinks you need a good mix...

keg in kc
04-26-2001, 04:48 PM
Give me a well-coached group of average athletes over a poorly-coached group of superstars any day of the week...

Of course, I would prefer a well-coached group of superstars, but that doesn't seem to be an option in the peckerfan world, since anyone who plays in Kansas City sucks by default.

WisChief
04-26-2001, 05:08 PM
Originally posted by Packfan

Sports teams win because of talent first and foremost. Coaching is very important, but if you dont have the players, forget it. Vince Lombardi couldnt get this team a playoff victory because it doesnt have the talent.

Hey Ken, riddle me this....

How many players from OU (thats the University of Oklahoma ;) ) were drafted this year into the NFL? Now after you find that number, how many from Kansas? What about other schools THAT DID NOT WIN A NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP THIS YEAR? Yea, I thought so....

You're wrong - Bob Stoops and his staff got the most out of that team and those players and it even happened at this **** hole in GB. Ray Rhodes took essentially Mike Walrus' team and flushed it down the crapper. Wake up Ken, "your better than that".

HC_Chief
04-26-2001, 05:10 PM
Why do you guys insist on feeding the trolls? Are you <i>that</i> bored?

ExtremeChief
04-27-2001, 06:44 AM
HC-Chief,

Yes!!

yoswif
04-27-2001, 10:06 AM
When we load up on big, physical cornerbacks and then sit back in a soft zone instead of getting our big, physical cornerbacks in the faces of wide receivers at the line of scrimmage would seem to be a coaching misuse of personnel, not a lack of talent.
When we put attacking type players like Edwards and Wesley in read and react roles, that would seem a coaching misuse of personnel, not a lack of talent.
Poor tackling and stupid penalties have more to do with poor coaching than lack of talent.

HC_Chief
04-27-2001, 11:30 AM
<i>Poor tackling and stupid penalties have more to do with poor coaching than lack of talent.</i>

Agreed. These mistakes point towards a breakdown in fundamentals and lack of concentration. That's a coach's job: make sure players execute and ensure they are focused! If they do NOT execute, show them what they are doing wrong... if they are not focused, park their arse on the bench for a bit (sends a strong message). Our coaching staff had lost the ability to do these things - not since '97 has the D played solid, fundamentally sound, <i>focused</i> football.


SIDE NOTE: I too, would like to know why everyone keeps trying to write-off Patton! The guy is a baller! Sure, his SACKS were down, but he was still a solid contributor. With Patton at LLB and Maslowski playing MLB, Edwards is free to exploit his athleticism - roaming either into coverage(where he excels), or attacking the QB. Maz + Patton = two solid run-stuffers at the LB position.