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Ugly Duck
07-11-2007, 11:49 PM
This is way too early. Americans should have waited for him the secure the nomination before we frag the guy. Here's a 13-minute video made by NYFD called "Guiliani: Urban Legend"

http://rudy-urbanlegend.com/

Cochise
07-12-2007, 12:03 AM
To be fair, this is not FDNY, it's the International Association of Firefighters Political Action Committee... which is AFL-CIO.

Certainly what everyone has to say should be judged on its merits, but the source and its/their motivations should be considered too.

recxjake
07-12-2007, 12:51 AM
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recxjake
07-12-2007, 12:52 AM
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HolmeZz
07-12-2007, 12:56 AM
Jake fanning the flames.

Mr. Kotter
07-12-2007, 02:22 AM
East Coast Labor Union/Firefighters union....

CRITICIZING a Republican??? :spock:




I'm utterly flabbergasted---in total shock! :eek:








:rolleyes:

dirk digler
07-12-2007, 08:24 AM
East Coast Labor Union/Firefighters union....

CRITICIZING a Republican??? :spock:




I'm utterly flabbergasted---in total shock! :eek:








:rolleyes:

Does the fact they are a union somehow make what they are saying less true?

Mr. Kotter
07-12-2007, 08:30 AM
Does the fact they are a union somehow make what they are saying less true?

It depends. Truth isn't always as simple as black and white.

Regardless, at a minimum....it goes to the issue of credibility. Bias inhibits one's ability to be objective.

The "Swiftboaters" bias, and motives, certainly became part of that discussion, as it should have. This is no different.

dirk digler
07-12-2007, 08:37 AM
Yes.

What bugs me is that we have huge Giuliani support Fire Fighter support in Iowa... but they don't get heard. This attack is being run by the same people that endorsed Kerry for President.

Why? From what I understand alot of these guys were there during 9/11 that lost alot of friends and saw things that made them not like or trust Rudy.

Do you think they are liars?

Cochise
07-12-2007, 08:38 AM
Does the fact they are a union somehow make what they are saying less true?

Usually.

dirk digler
07-12-2007, 08:44 AM
It depends. Truth isn't always as simple as black and white.

Regardless, at a minimum....it goes to the issue of credibility. Bias inhibits one's ability to be objective.

The "Swiftboaters" bias, and motives, certainly became part of that discussion, as it should have. This is no different.

I agree

StcChief
07-12-2007, 09:12 AM
AFL-CIO propaganda machine. with ~10-20% of labor force in US... I really don't get them as credible

go bowe
07-12-2007, 09:29 AM
Yes.

What bugs me is that we have huge Giuliani support Fire Fighter support in Iowa... but they don't get heard. This attack is being run by the same people that endorsed Kerry for President.attack?

none of the posts (so far) appear to attacking rudy; in fact, they seem quite supportive if not flattering to rudy...

Frazod
07-12-2007, 09:32 AM
Jake fanning the flames.

Yeah, but the good news is, since he stopped pimping GM, their sales are up 17%.

BucEyedPea
07-12-2007, 09:33 AM
Jake fanning the flames.
You just used Ad Hominem!!!! AGAIN! :harumph:

Taco John
07-12-2007, 10:13 AM
All I care to know is whether or not these guys are lying. Eventually, in the swiftboat ordeal, it became clear that they didn't have a consistent story and that several of them were flat liars.

We'll see if this is the case here. What I really care to know is whether the claim is true that they found the gold and quit looking for human remains once that happened, with torsos later being found in the wreckage that went to the city dump. If that's true, that's inexcusable.

recxjake
07-12-2007, 10:14 AM
This is way too early. Americans should have waited for him the secure the nomination before we frag the guy. Here's a 13-minute video made by NYFD called "Guiliani: Urban Legend"

http://rudy-urbanlegend.com/

Learn how to spell Giuliani.

Adept Havelock
07-12-2007, 10:53 AM
Learn how to spell Giuliani.

Learn how to make an argument that doesn't involve mere cutting and pasting. :Poke:

dirk digler
07-12-2007, 11:54 AM
All I care to know is whether or not these guys are lying. Eventually, in the swiftboat ordeal, it became clear that they didn't have a consistent story and that several of them were flat liars.

We'll see if this is the case here. What I really care to know is whether the claim is true that they found the gold and quit looking for human remains once that happened, with torsos later being found in the wreckage that went to the city dump. If that's true, that's inexcusable.

Yep I agree. We already know that during the cleanup process because he wanted it rushed and because of that bones and body parts were mixed in and used for street repair.


http://www.nydailynews.com/news/2007/03/24/2007-03-24_911_remains_fill_potholes_worker_claims.html
The pulverized remains of bodies from the World Trade Center disaster site were used by city workers to fill ruts and potholes, a city contractor says in a sworn affidavit filed yesterday in Manhattan Federal Court.

Eric Beck says debris powders - known as fines - were put in a pothole-fill mixture by crews at the Fresh Kills landfill on Staten Island, where more than 1.65 million tons of World Trade Center debris were deposited after the Sept. 11 attacks.

"I observed the New York City Department of Sanitation taking these fines from the conveyor belts of our machines, loading it onto tractors and using it to pave roads and fill in potholes, dips and ruts," Eric Beck said.

Beck was the senior supervisor for Taylor Recycling, a private contractor hired to sift through debris trucked to Fresh Kills after the trade center attacks. Before the arrival of Taylor's equipment at Fresh Kills in October 2001, the debris was sifted manually by workers using rakes and shovels.

Beck's affidavit was filed by lawyers for the families of 9/11 victims who are suing the city in hopes of creating a formal burial place for debris that they say contains human remains.

"It's devastating," Norman Siegel, an attorney representing the families, said of Beck's statement. "When the 9/11 families found about this, they were wiped out."

HolmeZz
07-12-2007, 12:43 PM
You just used Ad Hominem!!!! AGAIN! :harumph:

That's not a god damn ad hominem. Will you please just look up what it f*cking means? You've shown you have no grasp of the concept.

Perhaps you should look at most of the other posts here. Like the ones discrediting them because they're a union or because they supported Kerry last election. That is an ad hominem. I wasn't discrediting Jake. I was commenting on his diligent posting efforts to squash this stuff.

BucEyedPea
07-12-2007, 12:48 PM
That's not a god damn ad hominem. Will you please just look up what it f*cking means? You've shown you have no grasp of the concept.

Perhaps you should look at most of the other posts here. Like the ones discrediting them because they're a union or because they supported Kerry last election. That is an ad hominem. I wasn't discrediting Jake. I was commenting on his diligent posting efforts to squash this stuff.
You Did not address content!
You addressed the poster personally.
You're an ad hominem poster.

HolmeZz
07-12-2007, 12:54 PM
You Did not address content!
You addressed the poster personally.
You're an ad hominem poster.

You have to be discrediting someone to commit an ad hominem.

BucEyedPea
07-12-2007, 01:07 PM
I was discrediting someone!!!

HolmeZz
07-12-2007, 01:12 PM
:| No I wasn't. I made a comment about what Jake was doing. That's not a friggin' ad hominem.

BucEyedPea
07-12-2007, 01:18 PM
1 noun: attacking an opponent's character rather than answering his argument.
dictionary.com

2 adj: Appealing to personal ( as it comes from Latin meaning " to the man") considerations rather than to logic or reason: Debaters should avoid ad hominem arguments that question their opponents' motives.
American Heritage Dictionary

Just keepin' it simple...I know there's various kinds of ad hominem including abusive, circumstantial etc. But it's about your opponent, who you're debating, it's not a politician or an author or an idea whose character you may be debating especially when their character may have relevancy to an issue.

HolmeZz
07-12-2007, 01:19 PM
1 noun: attacking an opponent's character rather than answering his argument.
dictionary.com

2 adj: Appealing to personal ( as it comes from Latin meaning " to the man") considerations rather than to logic or reason: Debaters should avoid ad hominem arguments that question their opponents' motives.
American Heritage Dictionary

Just keepin' it simple...I know there's various kinds of ad hominem including abusive, circumstantial etc. But it's about your opponent, who you're debating, it's not a politician or an author or an idea whose character you may be debating especially when their character may have relevancy to an issue.

There was no debating. I didn't engage Jake in any kind of argument. I didn't say Jake was or wasn't justified in his reponses to the attacks.

There was no 'logic to consider'. I just said what he was f*cking doing.

BucEyedPea
07-12-2007, 01:19 PM
:| No I wasn't. I made a comment about what Jake was doing. That's not a friggin' ad hominem.
So? It's still about what Jake is doing and it implies a character flaw.

HolmeZz
07-12-2007, 01:21 PM
So? It's still about what Jake is doing and it implies a character flaw.

And what flaw is that?

I didn't say he was right or wrong in trying to justify why Giuliani was being attack. There was no debate or argument.

BucEyedPea
07-12-2007, 01:23 PM
Blowback! :evil:

dirk digler
07-12-2007, 01:38 PM
Blowback! :evil:

I think you like the word blow... :)

BucEyedPea
07-12-2007, 02:17 PM
:redface:

picasso
07-13-2007, 01:05 AM
To be fair, this is not FDNY, it's the International Association of Firefighters Political Action Committee... which is AFL-CIO.

Certainly what everyone has to say should be judged on its merits, but the source and its/their motivations should be considered too.

Uh the majority of the speakers in this piece are family of fallen firefighters.
I do find it odd that not 1 police officer was killed - don't you?

ChiefaRoo
07-13-2007, 01:32 AM
I think the attack by this FF Union is bogus. That being said I don't think Rudy would be the best choice for President. He's too one dimensional and socially liberal for me. I've heard him speak personally twice and I think he's a solid Pol. I'd like to see him in the Senate from NY or perhaps Gov. of NY.

go bowe
07-13-2007, 01:56 PM
did you say senator from ny?

i don't know if could beat hillary for her seat...

same with schumer...

governor of ny would be a good spot for rudy...

orange
07-13-2007, 07:14 PM
...

Certainly what everyone has to say should be judged on its merits, but the source and its/their motivations should be considered too.


Fred Thompson: Thompson said, "I have the greatest respect for Steve and his organization and what they're doing."

At a press conference with Long, Thompson said he and Cassidy "talked about where they have been, what they have done . . . They're obviously on the front line. They've paid a terrible price. They sacrificed for all of us.

http://www.nypost.com/seven/07132007/news/regionalnews/fred_meets_with_rudys_fire_foes_regionalnews_maggie_haberman_and_frankie_edozien.htm

You right-wingers hash this out. LMAO

patteeu
07-14-2007, 09:59 AM
Does the fact they are a union somehow make what they are saying less true?

Is what they are saying true in the first place?

Ultra Peanut
07-14-2007, 11:51 AM
Yes.

What bugs me is that we have huge Giuliani support Fire Fighter support in Iowa... but they don't get heard. Because they're IN ****ING IOWA.

HolmeZz
07-14-2007, 12:24 PM
I think if anybody can speak to Giuliani's experience handling crises, it's firefighters in Iowa.

Ultra Peanut
07-14-2007, 12:33 PM
Well, it's true that it generally speaks very well to someone when he's more well-liked the farther you get from his place of work.

HolmeZz
07-14-2007, 12:40 PM
Well, it's true that it generally speaks very well to someone when he's more well-liked the farther you get from his place of work.

Or even his home.

Hoover
07-14-2007, 12:51 PM
I think Giuliani is in trouble, especially now that someone is attacking him directly in his area of great strength, his 9-11 celebrity. Politics is a sport, and presidential politics is the big leagues. One of the most basic strategies in politics is taking your opponents strengths and turning it into a weakness. That is exactly what this group is doing.

Recxjake claims that Rudy has “support Fire Fighter support in Iowa,” but I question it. Rudy doesn’t have much going on in Iowa, and if he doesn’t change his tactics he is going to get his butt kicked in the caucuses in January. Giuliani has repeatedly visited the Des Moines and Cedar Rapids areas, and while those are the two largest communities in the state, his team must remember this is a caucus state, not a primary state.

It is good to see that he is going to visit Western Iowa in mid July, but it will be interesting to see if he takes questions and if Iowa’s conservative caucus goers are willing to overlook his pro choice, pro gay rights stances. It will also be interesting to see if Rudy is on time. He has a history of making Iowans stand around for an hour before he shows up. That doesn’t go over well here in Iowa.

Simply put, the Giuliani team needs to understand that they are running for the Republican nomination, not running a presidential re-election campaign. John McCain’s team made that mistake and look where it got him.

Hoover
07-14-2007, 01:43 PM
I know, thats why I said it was good to see that he is going to western Iowa. I think you guys have a ton of work to do if you guys want to win in January.

Hoover
07-14-2007, 01:46 PM
I agree.

Are you going to any of these events next week?

Nope, it doesn't work with my schedule

Hoover
07-14-2007, 01:56 PM
I'm not convinced that Fred Thompson really wants it. I think he needs to act soon or else people, espeically activist will grow tried of his act. If you are going to run, throw down and do it.

That said I think Iowa and New Hampshire will come down to a battle between Romney and Rudy, huge advantage to Romney since his team will have thousands of pre identified supporters who have helped him with the Straw Poll. You guys will have to hope your people are willing and able to turn out on a cold January night.

Hoover
07-14-2007, 02:43 PM
I agree, but noboby is giving him a run for his money here in Iowa. This is the main reason I thought Rudy should play in the Straw Poll, so that Romney doesn't steal the show.

Adept Havelock
07-16-2007, 02:15 PM
Wow Jake. An Op-Ed from the NY Post. That's as unbiased a paper as the NY Times.

Logical
07-16-2007, 10:05 PM
Truth is what I care about.... and this group wants nothing to do with it.

If truth is what you care about quit reading the NY Post. Seriously, look into its ownership and what it has been all about since he owned it. Not good and not unbiased.

HolmeZz
07-16-2007, 10:11 PM
Truth is what I care about...

AND WHATEVER I IGNORE IS FICTION

Fishpicker
07-16-2007, 10:36 PM
This is way too early. Americans should have waited for him the secure the nomination before we frag the guy. Here's a 13-minute video made by NYFD called "Guiliani: Urban Legend"

http://rudy-urbanlegend.com/

we're saving the old "Rudy married his second cousin" bit for that occasion.

Adept Havelock
07-17-2007, 10:58 AM
we're saving the old "Rudy married his second cousin" bit for that occasion.


I'd think that would help his campaign down South.

Mr. Kotter
07-17-2007, 11:25 AM
If truth is what you care about quit reading the NY Post. Seriously, look into its ownership and what it has been all about since he owned it. Not good and not unbiased.

Same could be said for many papers--including the LA Times and the NY Times. :)

go bowe
07-17-2007, 11:51 AM
Same could be said for many papers--including the LA Times and the NY Times. :)i think the moonies own the washington times...

are those papers owned by the moonies, too?

Mr. Kotter
07-17-2007, 11:52 AM
i think the moonies own the washington times...

are those papers owned by the moonies, too?

Nah. But given the credibility issues that have arisen for both over the course of the past decade or so.....they've lost a lot of their former luster.

HolmeZz
07-17-2007, 01:05 PM
I'd think that would help his campaign down South.

JOKE INFRINGEMENT

http://chiefsplanet.com/BB/showpost.php?p=3778417&postcount=3

Adept Havelock
07-17-2007, 04:03 PM
JOKE INFRINGEMENT

http://chiefsplanet.com/BB/showpost.php?p=3778417&postcount=3

Heh. Something tells me neither of us is really the first to make that observation, but if it makes you happy:

.
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HolmeZz
07-17-2007, 04:12 PM
You're forgiven.

noa
07-21-2007, 12:30 AM
There's a guy named Jeff Bagwell on that list.

HolmeZz
07-21-2007, 12:45 AM
Rudy and South Carolina firefighters go way back.

Calcountry
07-21-2007, 01:29 PM
This is way too early. Americans should have waited for him the secure the nomination before we frag the guy. Here's a 13-minute video made by NYFD called "Guiliani: Urban Legend"

http://rudy-urbanlegend.com/ :shrug: It could get worse, just wait until they "Bork" Hillary. That just sounds wrong, doesn't it.