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Taco John
07-25-2007, 09:16 PM
Birth of clean town: Ave Maria

By Mary Beth Marklein, USA TODAY
AVE MARIA, Fla. — Ten years ago, Domino's Pizza founder Tom Monaghan had a vision to create a "fresh, faithful voice" in Catholic higher education. Now he has both a university and a brand-new town to put it in.
On Saturday, the town will open its doors to the public. Next week, Ave Maria University will move from its cramped quarters in Naples to a permanent campus here, which sits on what used to be about 1,000 acres of tomato plants.

Ave Maria has not been without controversy. The Florida American Civil Liberties Union has threatened to sue if the town bans birth control, as Monaghan suggested in a speech. Catholic educators say he could have found better ways to reach out than to create a town where single-family home prices range from $256,900 to $481,900.

Monaghan, 70, remains steadfast. "Everything I do I think I do for the right purposes," he says. "I only have to answer to my God."

The town and university will operate independently but the Catholic influence is hard to miss. Streets bear names like Assisi and Annunciation. The town center holds a cathedral-size chapel based on a design Monaghan sketched himself. Atop it is a 13-foot-high cross, the highest point in the town.

FIND MORE STORIES IN: Catholic | College | Diocese | Domino's Pizza | Ave Maria | Tom Monaghan
The seeds for this $400 million enterprise were sown in 1998, the year Monaghan sold his pizza business for $1 billion and founded Ave Maria College, a liberal arts school in Ypsilanti, Mich. (It closed this year.) By 2000, he had founded Ave Maria School of Law in Ann Arbor,Mich.; it is set to relocate to Florida in 2009.

In 2002, real estate development company Barron Collier offered to donate 1,000 acres of southwestern Florida farmland for Monaghan's dream university. He partnered with the company to create a town to support it. He has committed more than $200 million to build the university and invested $100 million to develop the town. Profits from that investment will go to the university.

Monaghan dismisses questions about whether the town will tolerate non-Catholic views. But he created a stir last year when he was quoted as having said in a speech to a Catholic men's conference that pharmacies wouldn't be allowed to stock condoms or birth control pills and that cable TV would show no pornography.

Monaghan has since said he misspoke. Project manager Donald Schrotenboer says the town will obey all local ordinances, but officials "would prefer" that businesses sell only products consistent with a family-friendly environment.

That hasn't appeased the ACLU of Florida, which says it will continue to monitor the town. Monaghan's "comments on the record give us legitimate concerns about the community he's creating," says Executive Director Howard Simon. Although many religious groups, from the Amish to Hasidic Jews, have their own communities, "constitutional issues arise when the religious group wants to act as if it also has governmental authority."

The USA already is home to more than 200 Catholic colleges and universities. But Monaghan and his administrators say Ave Maria's campus will reflect a faithfulness to Catholic teachings that they do not see elsewhere. The campus will have single-sex dorms, for instance. And every residence hall will have a chapel.

"We make no apologies for seeking to uphold Catholic moral teachings," particularly when it comes to relations between men and women, Ave Maria University President Nicholas Healy says. "We would not approve of or facilitate something that is very common, I'm told, on college campuses today, hooking up and sleeping around, and … binge drinking."

Such talk has not endeared Monaghan, who dropped out of college when his pizza business took off, to Catholic educators.

"This is his dream, fueled by his money and his vision. There are people who admire him … and others who feel he ought to have more humility about it all," says Richard Yanikoski, president of the Washington, D.C.-based Association of Catholic Colleges and Universities. "He comes across as, 'I know best how to educate Catholics at the college level.' "

Monaghan's relationship with the Diocese of Venice, whose boundaries include the town of Ave Maria, remains undefined. Campus priests can celebrate Mass in the oratory, but need permission from the bishop to perform sacraments.

"The bishop has spiritual and pastoral responsibility" for Catholics in the new town, as for any who move into the diocese, says diocese spokeswoman Adela Gonzales White.

Monaghan hopes that will change in time. Overall, he's content with where things stand. "If they buried me now, I'd be satisfied."

And Renee Beckner of Naples, who with husband Alan plans to open a jewelry store and build a home in Ave Maria, says she was impressed by the "vision God had given him."

"I don't see why there's such a fuss about having a community (where) the values are based on faith and family and religion," she says.

Contributing: The News-Press in Fort Myers, Fla.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-07-18-ave-maria_N.htm

ChiefaRoo
07-25-2007, 09:21 PM
Birth of clean town: Ave Maria

By Mary Beth Marklein, USA TODAY
AVE MARIA, Fla. — Ten years ago, Domino's Pizza founder Tom Monaghan had a vision to create a "fresh, faithful voice" in Catholic higher education. Now he has both a university and a brand-new town to put it in.
On Saturday, the town will open its doors to the public. Next week, Ave Maria University will move from its cramped quarters in Naples to a permanent campus here, which sits on what used to be about 1,000 acres of tomato plants.

Ave Maria has not been without controversy. The Florida American Civil Liberties Union has threatened to sue if the town bans birth control, as Monaghan suggested in a speech. Catholic educators say he could have found better ways to reach out than to create a town where single-family home prices range from $256,900 to $481,900.

Monaghan, 70, remains steadfast. "Everything I do I think I do for the right purposes," he says. "I only have to answer to my God."

The town and university will operate independently but the Catholic influence is hard to miss. Streets bear names like Assisi and Annunciation. The town center holds a cathedral-size chapel based on a design Monaghan sketched himself. Atop it is a 13-foot-high cross, the highest point in the town.

FIND MORE STORIES IN: Catholic | College | Diocese | Domino's Pizza | Ave Maria | Tom Monaghan
The seeds for this $400 million enterprise were sown in 1998, the year Monaghan sold his pizza business for $1 billion and founded Ave Maria College, a liberal arts school in Ypsilanti, Mich. (It closed this year.) By 2000, he had founded Ave Maria School of Law in Ann Arbor,Mich.; it is set to relocate to Florida in 2009.

In 2002, real estate development company Barron Collier offered to donate 1,000 acres of southwestern Florida farmland for Monaghan's dream university. He partnered with the company to create a town to support it. He has committed more than $200 million to build the university and invested $100 million to develop the town. Profits from that investment will go to the university.

Monaghan dismisses questions about whether the town will tolerate non-Catholic views. But he created a stir last year when he was quoted as having said in a speech to a Catholic men's conference that pharmacies wouldn't be allowed to stock condoms or birth control pills and that cable TV would show no pornography.

Monaghan has since said he misspoke. Project manager Donald Schrotenboer says the town will obey all local ordinances, but officials "would prefer" that businesses sell only products consistent with a family-friendly environment.

That hasn't appeased the ACLU of Florida, which says it will continue to monitor the town. Monaghan's "comments on the record give us legitimate concerns about the community he's creating," says Executive Director Howard Simon. Although many religious groups, from the Amish to Hasidic Jews, have their own communities, "constitutional issues arise when the religious group wants to act as if it also has governmental authority."

The USA already is home to more than 200 Catholic colleges and universities. But Monaghan and his administrators say Ave Maria's campus will reflect a faithfulness to Catholic teachings that they do not see elsewhere. The campus will have single-sex dorms, for instance. And every residence hall will have a chapel.

"We make no apologies for seeking to uphold Catholic moral teachings," particularly when it comes to relations between men and women, Ave Maria University President Nicholas Healy says. "We would not approve of or facilitate something that is very common, I'm told, on college campuses today, hooking up and sleeping around, and … binge drinking."

Such talk has not endeared Monaghan, who dropped out of college when his pizza business took off, to Catholic educators.

"This is his dream, fueled by his money and his vision. There are people who admire him … and others who feel he ought to have more humility about it all," says Richard Yanikoski, president of the Washington, D.C.-based Association of Catholic Colleges and Universities. "He comes across as, 'I know best how to educate Catholics at the college level.' "

Monaghan's relationship with the Diocese of Venice, whose boundaries include the town of Ave Maria, remains undefined. Campus priests can celebrate Mass in the oratory, but need permission from the bishop to perform sacraments.

"The bishop has spiritual and pastoral responsibility" for Catholics in the new town, as for any who move into the diocese, says diocese spokeswoman Adela Gonzales White.

Monaghan hopes that will change in time. Overall, he's content with where things stand. "If they buried me now, I'd be satisfied."

And Renee Beckner of Naples, who with husband Alan plans to open a jewelry store and build a home in Ave Maria, says she was impressed by the "vision God had given him."

"I don't see why there's such a fuss about having a community (where) the values are based on faith and family and religion," she says.

Contributing: The News-Press in Fort Myers, Fla.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-07-18-ave-maria_N.htm
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Taco John
07-25-2007, 09:23 PM
I'm not sure what to think about this story.

What happens when people start to build towns based on race? Or, what happens when New-Baghdad pops up in some remote desert that some Shiehk bought in Texas?

ChiefaRoo
07-25-2007, 09:26 PM
I'm not sure what to think about this story.

What happens when people start to build towns based on race? Or, what happens when New-Baghdad pops up in some remote desert that some Shiehk bought in Texas?

I think Ned handled it just fine.

BucEyedPea
07-25-2007, 09:44 PM
"I don't see why there's such a fuss about having a community (where) the values are based on faith and family and religion," she says.
I don't know what to think about it either, but when I read this line, it reminds me of the Amish doing the same thing.

I heard about this town a few years ago.
The prices of the homes, for that area....OUCH!

Adept Havelock
07-25-2007, 09:59 PM
What happens when people start to build towns based on race?

My thought as well.

We've come a long way from the civil rights movement, back when it was the fashion to try to bring people together. :shake:

BucEyedPea
07-25-2007, 10:03 PM
'Good fences make good neighbors'—Robert Frost

I'm beginning to think it's naive that we can bring people together in all things.
That's why we have different cultures, states etc. I think it's just as important to give space and repect to different peoples instead of enforcing uniform standards and everything being the same to the point of absurdity.

Adept Havelock
07-25-2007, 10:18 PM
'Good fences make good neighbors'—Robert Frost

I'm beginning to think it's naive that we can bring people together in all things.
That's why we have different cultures, states etc. I think it's just as important to give space and repect to different peoples instead of enforcing uniform standards and everything being the same to the point of absurdity.

I have no problem with giving space and respecting different people. I have a serious problem with the increasing belief in this country that our differences are far more important than our common humanity. IMO, this is a clear example of it. I don't see any difference in this than I do in building a massive community devoted to a single race. I have a hunch we will disagree on this, so be it.

For the record, I'd think it was just as idiotic if it was done by a bunch of hedonistic athiests.

Though I'd be a bit more tempted to visit. :p

ChiefaRoo
07-25-2007, 10:20 PM
I have no problem with giving space and respecting different people.

I have a serious problem with the increasing belief that our differences are far more important than our common humanity.

IMO, this is a clear example of it. I don't see any difference in this than I do in building a massive community devoted to a single race.

For the record, I'd think it was just as idiotic if it was done by a bunch of hedonistic athiests.

Though I'd be a bit more tempted to visit. :p

According to Ned they are a bit hedonistic :)

PunkinDrublic
07-25-2007, 10:24 PM
Child Molestorville.

Pitt Gorilla
07-26-2007, 12:10 AM
Will the food in town be mandated to taste like cardboard?

Pitt Gorilla
07-26-2007, 12:11 AM
Child Molestorville.Is that what they meant by "family-friendly?"

|Zach|
07-26-2007, 12:17 AM
One of my favorite compositions. Ever.

Franz Biebl's Ave Maria as performed by Chanticleer.

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Ebolapox
07-26-2007, 12:45 AM
feh, worked out well for the mormons.

wait.....

Ultra Peanut
07-26-2007, 04:18 AM
Better than Scientologyville, also known as Clearwater, I guess.

BucEyedPea
07-26-2007, 07:51 AM
I have no problem with giving space and respecting different people. I have a serious problem with the increasing belief in this country that our differences are far more important than our common humanity. IMO, this is a clear example of it. I don't see any difference in this than I do in building a massive community devoted to a single race. I have a hunch we will disagree on this, so be it.

For the record, I'd think it was just as idiotic if it was done by a bunch of hedonistic athiests.

Though I'd be a bit more tempted to visit. :p
It's not a country. It's one little town.
It doesn't force anybody to live there. So it doesn't force anybody to follow their ways. They are not harming anybody.
It's freedom of religion, an American thing and a protected right.

Doing it on race is not the same. I doubt it would be legally protected.
On the other hand, blacks get to hold Black Miss America or some such.

If this was dominant across the country I'd have a problem with it.
The fact is we are not all the same even if we're the same in other ways.

So you think the Amish should not be allowed to do the same?
Should the Castro District in SF be broken up?
And what about nudist colonies?

Jenson71
07-26-2007, 09:53 AM
I'm packing my bags!

;)

ChiefaRoo
07-26-2007, 03:00 PM
feh, worked out well for the mormons.

wait.....

The Mormons don't have sexual hang ups. They want as many kids to be born as possible and they have no dating hangups. Putting a man in a position of power and telling him he can't have sex ever as a set of rules is well, stupid. It's going to attract pedos by definition.

BucEyedPea
07-26-2007, 04:08 PM
The Mormons don't have sexual hang ups. They want as many kids to be born as possible and they have no dating hangups. Putting a man in a position of power and telling him he can't have sex ever as a set of rules is well, stupid. It's going to attract pedos by definition.
You do know that it was only 2% of priest involved in pedophilia...man boy sex that is. It's supposed to be 1 and 4 that are gay priests per certain RC's and some priests say it's as high as 50%. Seems to me if this is true they could just have sex with each other than children. So I don't see the logic especially if it's only 2%. ( based on actual cases). The problem is attributable to the RCC allowing a more liberal policy beginning in the 50's and 60's of allowing gays in the priesthood. There is far more pedophilia in the teaching profession. I'd say based on child porn sting, which uncovered numerous persons in positions of authority over children like teachers, counselers even other ministers that pedos are attracted to wherever they can be in a position to exploit children...not just the RC priesthood where chastity is part of their vows.

ChiefaRoo
07-26-2007, 04:54 PM
You do know that it was only 2% of priest involved in pedophilia...man boy sex that is. It's supposed to be 1 and 4 that are gay priests per certain RC's and some priests say it's as high as 50%. Seems to me if this is true they could just have sex with each other than children. So I don't see the logic especially if it's only 2%. ( based on actual cases). The problem is attributable to the RCC allowing a more liberal policy beginning in the 50's and 60's of allowing gays in the priesthood. There is far more pedophilia in the teaching profession. I'd say based on child porn sting, which uncovered numerous persons in positions of authority over children like teachers, counselers even other ministers that pedos are attracted to wherever they can be in a position to exploit children...not just the RC priesthood where chastity is part of their vows.

The place is Pedo magnet. I don't know how you can quote a percentage. There is no way an accurate census of pedo priests in the catholic church has been done. In fact, the church has covered it up and moved pedos from parish to parish.

BucEyedPea
07-26-2007, 05:54 PM
The place is Pedo magnet. I don't know how you can quote a percentage. There is no way an accurate census of pedo priests in the catholic church has been done. In fact, the church has covered it up and moved pedos from parish to parish.
Of course there is, that's based on the number of legal cases and complaints brought to date. The reason it seems like so many ( 1500 ) is because each priest molested numerous boys. The statistic on school teachers is from the AMA. That's 13%.

It's not being covered up anymore, as they put out a survey to try and uncover more situations. Per that RCC survey, that I read on a RC site, they are now willing to admit it may be as high as 4% to cover any unreported. The other numbers on gays in the RCC are from actual books written by priests who served.

The reason for the cover up is some of the higher ups were gay, didn't want that known or were also involved. Another reason is that Pope John Paul didn't believe the charges because when he lived in Poland under communism, it was a common communist ploy to accuse priests of being gay.


I'd say it's more a homo magnet as there's lots of men available living together. Pedophilia, even out of that, is still a small percentage. Not saying there is no validity in what you say I just disagree with how much emphasis you give it. Pedos go where there are children...in this case alter boys.

Hold on....I'll get those links if still available.

noa
07-26-2007, 06:01 PM
Of course there is, that's based on the number of legal cases and complaints brought to date. The reason it seems like so many ( 1500 ) is because each priest molested numerous boys. The statistic on school teachers is from the AMA. That's 13%.

It's not being covered up anymore, as they put out a survey to try and uncover more situations. Per that RCC survey, that I read on a RC site, they are now willing to admit it may be as high as 4% to cover any unreported. The other numbers on gays in the RCC are from actual books written by priests who served.

The reason for the cover up is some of the higher ups were gay, didn't want that known or were also involved. Another reason is that Pope John Paul didn't believe the charges because when he lived in Poland under communism, it was a common communist ploy to accuse priests of being gay.


I'd say it's more a homo magnet as there's lots of men available living together. Pedophilia, even out of that, is still a small percentage. Not saying there is no validity in what you say I just disagree with how much emphasis you give it. Pedos go where there are children...in this case alter boys.

Hold on....I'll get those links if still available.

I don't know a lot about this so I'm confused. How would the church adopt a liberal policy that allows gay priests? I mean, shouldn't their policy be no gays and no heteros either? You must be asexual. Also, what does it mean for a celibate priest to be gay? Does it just mean he thinks certain thoughts, or are the statistics you've read indicating that the priests acted on their homosexual desires? Just curious.

BucEyedPea
07-26-2007, 06:09 PM
I don't know a lot about this so I'm confused. How would the church adopt a liberal policy that allows gay priests? I mean, shouldn't their policy be no gays and no heteros either? You must be asexual. Also, what does it mean for a celibate priest to be gay? Does it just mean he thinks certain thoughts, or are the statistics you've read indicating that the priests acted on their homosexual desires? Just curious.
I don't know. You'll have to ask them. Seems like psychology to me. This is religion and is in the real of spiritual things...ya' know like Buddhist monks or nuns. I just know some of the history being raised as a RC....and viewing a video in the mid 80's about how more gay priests had entered. Plus, some of what I said is in a few books written by priests.

ChiefaRoo
07-26-2007, 06:19 PM
My central point (and hypothesis) is that it is unhealthy for men or women to be celibate their entire lives. It's unnatural and if a profession like the priesthood advocates it then it is basically asking for a higher than average percentage of sexually screwed up people (in denial) to join who in later years act out.

BucEyedPea
07-26-2007, 06:19 PM
Catholic bashing and pedophile priests (http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=26955)

Michael Medved
The author is Jewish. Irrelevant? Well at least it's not a RC being defensive.

As the platoons of political correctness pile on regarding priestly pedophilia, it's important to keep in mind another "p" word: perspective.

An objective analysis of the situation suggests, first, that the Catholic church is no worse than others when it comes to the incidence of child molesters in its ranks. Second, whatever the failings of the Catholic hierarchy in dealing with this appalling problem (and they are legion), those sins pale in comparison to the blatant hypocrisy of the Church's enemies on this issue.

In fact, some of those adversaries inadvertently assist the process of placing the scandal in context. Sylvia Demarest, a Texas lawyer, won a $119 million jury award on behalf of former altar boys abused in Dallas, and tracked allegations against priests in every part of the country. She told the Washington Post that her updated list of priests who stand accused of molesting children will reach 1,500 names – representing about 2 percent of the 60,000 priests who have served in the United States since 1984. Even this modest percentage may overstate the problem, since no one would suggest that every member of clergy who stands accused of pedophilia is actually guilty of the crime.

Ms. Demarest's numbers conform with estimates by Thomas Plante, a California psychologist at Santa Clara University who treats priests who have molested minors. "The best data we have is that approximately 5 percent of priests have a predilection toward minors," he declared. "That seems consistent with other clergy who are not priests (such as Protestant ministers or rabbis)." Moreover, Plante cites research suggesting that among the general population, 8 percent feel sexually attracted to children – a higher percentage than among priests or other clergy. Such numbers, or course, reflect those who feel sexually drawn to contact with kids, rather than indicating the percentage who actually act upon this inclination.

The Washington Post, an establishment liberal journal with no reason to whitewash the church, approvingly cites Gary Schoener, a psychologist in Minneapolis whose Walk-In Counseling Center has consulted with more than 1,000 victims of sexual abuse by clergy. He also affirms that the percentage of abusers among Catholic priests is no higher than among Protestant ministers.



Why, then, the disproportionate focus on problems within the Church? In part, that emphasis stems from a few truly horrifying high-profile cases and multi-million dollar legal settlements, like the example of Boston's John Geoghan who personally molested more than 130 children.

Then there is also the status of the Catholic Church as the most visible, powerful religious institution in the world: General resentment of organized religion will often focus on the Church of Rome, the most centrally organized and hierarchical faith on earth.

Finally, many attacks center on the tradition of priestly celibacy, in a spasm of trendy Catholic-bashing that reflects the basest sort of inconsistency. Gay activists and establishment opinion leaders unequivocally insist that homosexual identity is innate and inborn as blue eyes or left-handedness. These same enlightened thinkers then turn around and say that celibacy in the priesthood pushes prelates to pedophilia. If only priests were allowed to marry, the conventional wisdom declares, then they wouldn't even feel tempted to molest little boys.

This proposition contradicts basic liberal assumptions about gay identity: If a priest is congenitally gay due to factors utterly beyond his control, how could marriage ever re-wire his orientation? This might work only if the Church sanctioned same-sex marriage for its priests, a radical demand that few critics of celibacy dare to advance.


Meanwhile, the tragic experience of child-molesting priests undermines another pillar of politically correct thinking. Gay activists repeatedly insist that pedophilia has no connection to homosexuality – that straight people are just as likely to abuse children as gay people. That contention flies in the face of statistics and experience: Consider the prominent public fascination with underage boys in gay pornography, and even in some of the ads in "mainstream" gay publications. Heterosexuals display no comparable obsession with little girls in their fantasies.

Moreover, nearly all victims of child-molesting priests turned out to be little boys, not little girls. If celibacy caused this problem, rather than homosexuality, why wouldn't straight priests laboring under the same sexual restrictions abuse girls at least as frequently as their colleagues ravished boys?

This uncomfortable question touches another illogical position of those who want to use this scandal as an excuse to attack a traditionalist church. The same people expressing the most strident condemnation of gay priests molesting young boys, also demand public pressure to force the Boy Scouts to embrace gay scout masters – insisting that such leaders present no danger to our sons.

As a non-Catholic, I feel confident that the Church will eventually clean house and deal with the problems of its clergy. But leftwing critics of the Church may never come to grips with the obvious internal contradictions in their own irrational ideas.

BucEyedPea
07-26-2007, 06:22 PM
My central point is that it is unhealthy for men or women to be celibate their entire lives. It's unnatural and if a profession like the priesthood advocates it then it is basically asking for a higher than average percentage of sexually screwed up people (in denial) to join.

By this logic, Christ, his Apostles and mother were sexually screwed up.
Yet, you worship Him. I do believe you're a Christian right?

ChiefaRoo
07-26-2007, 06:27 PM
By this logic, Christ, his Apostles and mother were sexually screwed up.
Yet, you worship Him. I do believe you're a Christian right?

Are you telling me the apostles and mary never had sex in their entire lives? BS. If so, I feel sorry for Joseph.

Christ? Heck he was a supernatural being born as a human. He doesn't count IMO. Regardless, just because there is no record of it didn't mean it didn't happen.

noa
07-26-2007, 06:27 PM
By this logic, Christ, his Apostles and mother were sexually screwed up.
Yet, you worship Him. I do believe you're a Christian right?

Were the Apostles celibate?

noa
07-26-2007, 06:29 PM
Also, as for Jesus, there is a possible alternate explanation for his celibacy. This might come across as offensive, but its just some cultural perspective. If Jesus was born out of wedlock, which is how it would appear like to general society, then he wouldn't be allowed to marry according to the law of the time.
He might not have been celibate on principal, but out of necessity.
Just one possible explanation...

BucEyedPea
07-26-2007, 06:34 PM
Are you telling me the apostles and mary never had sex in their entire lives? BS. If so, I feel sorry for Joseph.
Presumably. She was a virgin. The Apostles, the married ones, most likely until they traveled with Christ. Missionary work took them away from home too often and far away which was a hardship on families. One reason why the RCC maintains "tradition" as in how the Apostles and Christ lived.

Christ? Heck he was a supernatural being born as a human. He doesn't count IMO. Regardless, just because there is no record of it didn't mean it didn't happen.
Isn't that what you're striving for?
Or is it supernatural stud? :p
I have to wonder after some of things you post in the Lounge. ROFL

BucEyedPea
07-26-2007, 06:37 PM
Were the Apostles celibate?
See above post to Cheifaroo.

Also, as for Jesus, there is a possible alternate explanation for his celibacy. This might come across as offensive, but its just some cultural perspective. If Jesus was born out of wedlock, which is how it would appear like to general society, then he wouldn't be allowed to marry according to the law of the time.He might not have been celibate on principal, but out of necessity. Just one possible explanation...

That may be. I have no opinion. I'm just going by what a certain religion believes. It has to right to it's beliefs.

I do disagree with the out-of-wedlock point though, as people just up and married. It wasn't like today with liscenses and all.

noa
07-26-2007, 06:40 PM
I do disagree with the out-of-wedlock point though, as people just up and married. It wasn't like today with liscenses and all.

Well, that's what society would have assumed if a baby was born to a woman and there was no father around to take credit.

BucEyedPea
07-26-2007, 06:43 PM
Well, that's what society would have assumed if a baby was born to a woman and there was no father around to take credit.
According to that belief, the Father is in heaven. Joseph was his stepfather....I believe per the RCC. Not sure.

noa
07-26-2007, 06:45 PM
According to that belief, the Father is in heaven. Joseph was his stepfather....I believe per the RCC. Not sure.

No, I'm just talking about the society into which Jesus was born. They didn't believe that he was the son of God. That took a little convincing. The average Jew of the time would have just assumed he was born out of wedlock, not that his mother was impregnated by God. That's why I'm speculating that he could have been unable to marry because the Jewish law of the time forbade bastards (for lack of a better term) to marry other Jews.

BucEyedPea
07-26-2007, 06:50 PM
No, I'm just talking about the society into which Jesus was born. They didn't believe that he was the son of God. That took a little convincing. The average Jew of the time would have just assumed he was born out of wedlock, not that his mother was impregnated by God. That's why I'm speculating that he could have been unable to marry because the Jewish law of the time forbade bastards (for lack of a better term) to marry other Jews.
Frankly I don't know of any evidence that suggests that. He also brought the New Testament which emphasized other things than the Old and He ran aground with them on things. Then you have those who say he never existed or that he was secretly married to Mary Magdelan. Once the Apostles set out on their missionary work they didn't take their wives with them, to my knowledge. It is this tradition that the RCC follows.

Cochise
07-26-2007, 07:11 PM
No, I'm just talking about the society into which Jesus was born. They didn't believe that he was the son of God. That took a little convincing. The average Jew of the time would have just assumed he was born out of wedlock, not that his mother was impregnated by God. That's why I'm speculating that he could have been unable to marry because the Jewish law of the time forbade bastards (for lack of a better term) to marry other Jews.

It would have been unusual for him not to be married, but he was unusual in many ways, after all.

It was not unheard of for a man to remain single by choice, however. He mentioned himself that some people of the day remained single by choice for the purposes of doing spiritual work, and that not everyone could accept this, but for some people it was their calling. If he considered it at least valid that some would remain unmarried to devote their life to service to God, it seems plausible that he would have chosen the same path.

noa
07-26-2007, 07:13 PM
It would have been unusual for him not to be married, but he was unusual in many ways, after all.

It was not unheard of for a man to remain single by choice, however. He mentioned himself that some people of the day remained single by choice for the purposes of doing spiritual work, and that not everyone could accept this, but for some people it was their calling. If he considered it at least valid that some would remain unmarried to devote their life to service to God, it seems plausible that he would have chosen the same path.


Thanks for the response. I was just floating one theory I've heard from a skeptic.

BucEyedPea
07-26-2007, 07:19 PM
noa,
I just tried googling about bastard children not being able to marry under Jewish law. Unfortunately, I had to take a ld call from my daughter, and only had time to look at one. But all I got from that was that there were no bastard children under Jewish law...all children were a good thing and a gift. It also said that it was not uncommon for Jews to have sexual relations before marriage with a very real possibility of pregancy. Just something to think about.

SLAG
07-26-2007, 07:43 PM
I find it interestesting that The Catholic Town Thread turns into a Priest Bashing Thread..

MOST of these priests are good men working hard to save souls as they are called by God

Growing up I wanted to be a Priest until my first girlfriend, at the time a Monsignor I knew told me that the Seminarys are just Hide outs for Molesters, they intentionally seek out the Seminarys... its not always the churches fault at first... the Celebacy is not what causes the problems... In fact most would not know that the enitre group Eastern Catholics have married Priests.

Celebate Priests is not Catholic Dogma or doctrine but simply the current and long standing Practice.

Catholic Down is a great Idea, I think i will make my own

BucEyedPea
07-26-2007, 09:34 PM
I find it interestesting that The Catholic Town Thread turns into a Priest Bashing Thread..
Isn't it amazing how this seems to usually happen despite it being the same in other denominations. Speaks volumes. It's okay for the press to point out when RC's have an issue inside on it....but not others.

Celebate Priests is not Catholic Dogma or doctrine but simply the current and long standing Practice.

True. It's tradition not dogma.


Other excellent points too Slag.I forgot about the Eastern rite churches.
Did you know Maryland was originally founded as a RC colony to escape persecution...hence "Mary" in Maryland?

patteeu
07-27-2007, 09:23 AM
You do know that it was only 2% of priest involved in pedophilia...man boy sex that is. It's supposed to be 1 and 4 that are gay priests per certain RC's and some priests say it's as high as 50%. Seems to me if this is true they could just have sex with each other than children. So I don't see the logic especially if it's only 2%. ( based on actual cases). The problem is attributable to the RCC allowing a more liberal policy beginning in the 50's and 60's of allowing gays in the priesthood. There is far more pedophilia in the teaching profession. I'd say based on child porn sting, which uncovered numerous persons in positions of authority over children like teachers, counselers even other ministers that pedos are attracted to wherever they can be in a position to exploit children...not just the RC priesthood where chastity is part of their vows.

I don't really see the logic either. I can accept that the Priesthood may attract more than it's share of people with sexual hangups because of it's celibacy requirement, but I'd think that pedophiles would be more attracted to teaching or coaching youth sports than to the priesthood.

BucEyedPea
07-27-2007, 09:46 AM
I don't really see the logic either. I can accept that the Priesthood may attract more than it's share of people with sexual hangups because of it's celibacy requirement, but I'd think that pedophiles would be more attracted to teaching or coaching youth sports than to the priesthood.
You're bringing up the youth sports issue reminds me of when my daughter was in Daisies/Brownies. I went on one of the camping trips, to assist troop leaders. One morning when the girls were not around, one of the troop leaders who was a counselor/therapist told some horror stories confessed to her by some grown men who had been BoyScouts. Things like being forced to give a BS troop leader a bj etc. So it definitely goes on, around these activities and is kept secret. She also said it was not all that uncommon an admission in therapy. It just blew me away.