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Armyofme
04-29-2001, 06:29 PM
But, you see, these are the views of the christian faith. Are you telling me that if someone never knows the concept of jesus and that he died for us, blah, blah, blah...that that person would not be accepted? Isn't that a bit narrow-minded? Another example... A newborn dies after lets say two hours after being born. That baby wouldn't even begin to understand the concept to accept him...does the baby go? Or, lets say that someone has severe disabilities and in the same way can't begin to understand the concept...do they go? The whole concept is a bit weak...

oleman47
04-29-2001, 06:32 PM
President Bush, then Gov, in 1994 said when faced with the question said Jews did not go to heaven. His brother, defended basketball player Charlie Ward and his anti-Jewish comments. Prescott Bush financed Hitler.
Bushwatch.com

This is not just a theological question. I guess the question should have a subset, if your neighbor is not going to heaven should he have equal rights.

Lightning Rod
05-02-2001, 09:57 AM
Sorry looks like I lost the topic somehow.

Christianity Question

This question was brought up this morning in a discussion between two friends of mine. One is a devout Christian and one is an Atheist. Gotta love this stuff on a slow day. Before I ask this question I want to just say that I’m not trying to piss anyone off or belittle his or her beliefs.
OK this is the scenario as put forth this morning

Part 1. Adolph Hitler minutes before his death has a moment of clarity and realizes the error of his way. He repents his sins, and accepts Jesus Christ as his savior.

Part 2. A Jewish man lives his life in a saintly manner. Follows all the 10 commandments, basically lives a life we would all be proud of. Being Jewish he does not accept Christ as his savior. It is in the same time period as part 1 of the equation so he is rounded up with the other Jews and put to death.


Who goes to heaven? Who does not?

Phobia
05-02-2001, 10:04 AM
It depends which denomination you are, Rod. Some religions believe all you have to do is accept Jesus Christ and you are going to heaven. Others scoff at that idea. I don't think there is a right or wrong answer to your question. One would hope the Jewish man would go. The way you apparently believe, NO Jews will be in heaven. I just can't see that. Jews were God's chosen people.

King_Chief_Fan
05-02-2001, 10:08 AM
The way I see it, and was taught, and I believe, that regardless of the behavior of people (good/bad), the only way to get to heaven is through Christ.

Baby Lee
05-02-2001, 10:13 AM
It really depends on the denomination, and I've found considerable difference between even people who have gone to the same church for most of their lives [misconceptions of official position, etc.].

Some evangelical sects believe that it is incumbent on those bestowed with the knowledge of God's love to introduce that knowledge to all they come in contact with. knowledge of His "truth" is viewed as a gift to be shared with all.

Those who are presented 'the truth' and reject it cannot countenence God, but those who have not been presented the truth, are presented an opportunity to learn, then accept or reject [kind of an extension of the innocence of a child]. Those who knew 'the truth' and were contemporaries of one not exposed to it have to answer for their evangelical failings.

ROYC75
05-02-2001, 10:16 AM
If thou shall believe in The Lord,Jesus Christ,thou shall be saved ! This is true,regaurdless of your sins providing you repent before death! Some might disagree with this,but not repenting is a sin. Your past sins has nothing with the present! Once you are saved,past is no more...the present till death is how you will be judged.

Many non-believers will have a hay day with your question....

Good Luck !

Clint in Wichita
05-02-2001, 10:22 AM
So Hitler would go to heaven, and the Jewish man would burn in hell for all eternity.

Nice.

Baby Lee
05-02-2001, 10:23 AM
"What good is it, my brothers, is a man claims to have faith but has no deeds ? Can such faith save him ? Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to him, 'Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed,' but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it ? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. But someone will say, 'You have faith; I have deeds.' Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do. You believe that there is one God. Good ! Even the demons believe that - and shudder. You foolish man. do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless. Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar ? You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. And the scripture was fulfilled that says, 'Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,' and he was called God's friend. You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone. In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction ? As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead."

Raiderhader
05-02-2001, 10:24 AM
Roy hit it right on the head. The Bible clearly states that you must accept Christ as your saviour if you are to go to heaven. That being the case, Hitler goes to heaven, the Jew doesn't.


Here is another one for ya to think about, what about the Jews who lived before Christ?

BIG_DADDY
05-02-2001, 10:30 AM
RCG,

It's not how you play the game
It's if you win or lose
You can choose
Don't confuse
Win or lose
It's up to youuuuuuuuuuuu

OZZY OSBOURNE

BIG DADDY

Yea, I have a problem with that amoungst many other things in the bible. However it is still a very good book with many GREAT points.

Phobia
05-02-2001, 10:31 AM
So, Roy, Rod, & Raiderhater,

Will there be NO Jews in heaven?

oleman47
05-02-2001, 10:34 AM
Now you can see why separation of Church and State is a good thingy.

ChiefGator
05-02-2001, 11:18 AM
KCJ,

Okay, I'll bite... what is that quote from? St. Augustus?

Mark

Mark M
05-02-2001, 11:28 AM
You all knew it wouldn't be long before I chimed in. ;)

Even though I do not believe there is a god, and thus no heaven in hell, here is my take if I were to believe in an all-powerful being:

If you believe there is a heaven, and you believe that you belong to be there, then that is it. You could've killed 6 gazillion people but, if you believe you are doing god's work, then you will be accepted into what you believe is heaven.

Make sense? Kinda confusing, I know, but here's the my point: If a Rastafarian believes that heaven is a place for those who praise god for putting weed on the planet, and heaven is a big smoke fest, then that is their heaven. If a Christian believes they will spend an eternity with Jesus, that is their heaven. If a Jew believes he will get away from his pestering mother-in-law for all eternity, that is his heaven. Etc. etc. Heaven is whatever you want it to be as long as you are content with yourself and your actions when you die.

Just my take. Like I said, I believe that when we die we just rot and turn to dust. Depressing? Maybe for some. But for me that's what the facts have currently shown me.

Not really answering the question with the above, so here I will: In true Christianity, as long as Hitler in his heart accepted Jesus, he's in. The Jew is not.

Gotta go now. I'll check this later tonight.

MM
~~Aeitheistic hethen.

ROYC75
05-02-2001, 11:30 AM
KPhobia.....

Been having trouble getting back to this site....have you ?

My reply to your ?'s is...it is my belief that Some Jews,along with other denominations will be chosen for the pearly gates.....I for 1 can't judge any of them.

One must not do good deeds to get to heaven,but rather will be awarded in heaven by his good deeds. However if he has never accepted Christ,good deeds will get him nothing but a " Hot Time in Eternity "

duncan_idaho
05-02-2001, 11:38 AM
The Jews before christ atoned for their sins by making sacrifices to God... those that did so with a whole heart will be accepted into heaven.

I believe that the "righteous" Jews who fail to accept Christ will be given a second chance to do so... but I am not positive.

oleman... don't see how this could prove that seperation of church and state is a good thing. what's your thinking there?

Lightning Rod
05-02-2001, 11:38 AM
Phil
I have not made any indication of my beliefs on this topic. This was an interesting Religious discussion that I was did not participate in this morning.
If any of you have taken this as me being anti-Semitic you are mistaken. Part of my children’s family tree is Jewish. Maybe enough to have them exterminated had they grown up in Nazi Germany.

I just thought this might stir up an interesting debate.

yvettesvoice
05-02-2001, 11:41 AM
Speculation can lead to condemnation.
Christians are supposed to judge not, lest ye be judged.

Jews have a heavenly concept called Olam Haba. Which means "the world to come". And if I'm not mistaken, Hindu's believe in Nirvana. A nothingness?

A Christians concept of heaven is not a Jew's. And the Bible is not their bible. So when it comes down to it...it doesn't matter to anyone except those who speculate on anothers eternity. And I thought that only God knows that.

ROYC75
05-02-2001, 11:44 AM
Mark M....

Knew this was up yur alley to join in on.....Got to admit your take on it is wide open !

oleman...how do you get this ? Seperation of church and state ?

Tomahawk 11
05-02-2001, 11:47 AM
I always liked these two questions:

Can God do any and everything?

If so, can God make a rock so big he can't move it?

I always thought that no matter how "good" or saintly you were, you were still not without sin. So I guess no one can go. Or can everyone go.

Phobia
05-02-2001, 11:51 AM
Sorry Rod - made an assumption based on what you posted.

Lightning Rod
05-02-2001, 12:05 PM
Ok,

This is one of the problems I have with a literal interpretation of the Bible. Under the same scenario a person could be born on a desert island live as perfect life as any human could. But since he/she never heard of Christ it would not be possible accept him as their savior. Too bad but not this person would be accepted into Heaven.

This is my take on this.
To be honest and fair I must admit I am an Agnostic. I am not an Atheist, and yes there is a difference.

My thoughts are this: if this is the true requirement to get into the club, not only will I not be let in but I would not want to join in the first place. I believe a person is defined by their actions not by their words.

Lightning Rod
05-02-2001, 12:23 PM
Phil
No problem

Baby Lee
05-02-2001, 12:26 PM
The quote is from the Book of James in the New Testament.

RCG - according to some, the 'castaway' would be as an innocent, as a child, blameless, and entitled to a period of learning in the afterlife, at which time is his opportunity to accept or reject.

While I don't go all-in for Mark M's heaven of your own making. [Seems like the logical extension of that is a specially constructed heaven of young boys for John Wayne Gacy to molest and bury in the cellar of his 'heaven house'], I do agree, conversely do not beleive in the eternal agony laid our so vividly by James in 'portrait of the artist as a young man.' Just as that portion of the heavenly host that found Satan an attractive leader, I think that those condemned to 'hell,' insofar as they have consciously rejected God, will not find that existence as horrid as will those 'with' God viewing it from the outside.

LapDog
05-02-2001, 12:44 PM
Originally posted by raiderhader
The Bible clearly states that you must accept Christ as your saviour if you are to go to heaven.

I'd be interested in knowing which passage 'clearly states' that.

To me, an Agnostic, if the way to heaven is through Christ, that DOESN'T mean that I must believe in Christ and accept him as my savior. He provided the means to allow all mankind into God's presence in the afterlife. I don't believe he would deny those means to me, simply because my limited human faith and intellect couldn't let me fully trust that he is the son of God. He would have mercy on me, and give me passage anyway, with the knowledge that I tried to believe, but just couldn't fully buy in.

The scenario is similar to this. A poor man (you and me)is about to die from some medical condition. A multi-millionaire (Jesus) sees the poor man's affliction and anonymously deposits a huge sum of money into the poor man's bank account. The poor man can choose to use the money or not. Either way, it is there. BUT, he doesn't have to believe or disbelieve ANYTHING about the millionaire who deposited the money. Jesus deposited money into all of our bank accounts. It is up to us to use it. Believing Jesus is the son of god, in my opinion, is NOT required. (Of course, by using his money, you are implicitly acknowledging his existence)

Yeah, I know. I sound like a believer, but I'm not. It is my opinion that no one can fully know the truth on these matters. Just like we can't prove God exists, we can't prove that God doesn't exist. In my mind, Atheists are as blindly faithful as Christians are.

oleman47
05-02-2001, 12:45 PM
There are a multitude of good reasons for having seperation of Church and State. The one for this thread is that without it you could not have such a thread. Even with this concept, there has been a struggle to reduce the laws against blasphemy.
I was enjoying the thread and our freedom.

Lightning Rod
05-02-2001, 01:01 PM
JC
It would be pretty easy to accept God if you found yourself a ?????? Sprit, soul, whatever and were sitting face to face with the almighty but, it seems contrary to Christian philosophy that the souls of people would be condemned for things that they have no control over.

I am a strong believer in the Judeo Christian concept of morality. In a nutshell treat others, as you would wish to be treated if the roles were reversed. I have some real problems with some of the interpretations of the Bible.

Are you suggesting, (as I understand the Mormons to do) that there are different levels of Heaven and or hell?

Rod- by no means a theologian but finds the topic fascinating when discussed in a rational and civil manner. Though this is not typically what happens. I tip my hat thus far.

ROYC75
05-02-2001, 01:05 PM
Lapdog.....

Read the bible......it is clear ! But you must believe it to recieve it !

Mark M
05-02-2001, 02:51 PM
ROY--
You like that? :) I just find it hard to believe that there is only one way. Of course, to quote one of my favorite authors:

"He hoped and prayed that there wasn't an afterlife. Then he realized there was a contradiction involved here and merely hoped that there wasn't an afterlife."
-Douglas Adams

MM
~~Hoping ...

Raiderhader
05-02-2001, 07:15 PM
Lap Dog,


John 3:16 -
"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life."


John 14:6 -
"Jesus answered, ' I am the way and the truth and the life. No man comes to the father except through me' ".


Romans 6:23 -
"For the wages of sin id death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."



Romans 10:9 -
"... That if you confess with your mouth, 'Jesus is Lord,' and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved."



These are a few pasages that say the only way to heaven, or eternal life (pleasently) as the scriptures put it, is through Jesus Christ. Hope that helps.

Otter
05-02-2001, 07:42 PM
I was raised Christian. Went to private Christian School from grade 1 to high school graduation and I no longer practice the religion so I'm even more doomed than Mark M. ;)

Some of the ugliest people I've ever met in my life I met through my ties with the church. While I'm not about to mention any of my examples on a public BB I've seen alot of pain and humiliation inflicted on people in the name of Christianity and that’s what drove me away: finally being able to comprehend the ugliness I've witnessed over the years.

If immoral people go to heaven because they accepted a religion and I go to hell after leading a good life but not accepting that religion then guess what: heavens a fraternity, not a resting place for the virtuous.

NaptownChief
05-02-2001, 07:54 PM
The only thing for certain is that we all will end up taking a dirt nap 6 feet under....

Men of the cloth say it is your "soul" that moves on to heaven or hell....Well the question that I always ask is "Do I currently have a soul?" and they respond "Well of coarse..." So if we all currently have a soul then I ask you how is your soul today? My soul is just fine cause the environment around my physical body is pleasant....Some will argue that your soul is your state of mind...Well if that is correct, since how I control my state of mind then I control where my soul is upon death...However, it appears to me that peoples happiness or lack-there-of is influenced by the environment in which they exist. Thus I ask you that since we will all be sharing the same physical environment when we are put 6 feet under then it is highly likely that most of our "souls" will share the same feelings regardless of what brand of cult rally that you attend on Sunday's....

Sound whacky? So does a boat made of gopher wood carrying two of every animal and not having the predator type animals destroy all the other animals on the boat...They must have had Seigfried and Roy train them before entering the boat....

old_geezer
05-02-2001, 07:58 PM
I just got back from church so I'm a little late jumping into this discussion. What I can't understand is where so many people seem to believe that there will be no jews in heaven.
As stated earlier, jews under the old covenant offered sin offerings (sacrifices) to God for atonement.
Jesus ushered in the new covenant. He was our once and perfect sacrifice. Many jews have accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior and many more are accepting Him every day. Rest assured, they will be with Jesus in heaven.

Zebedee DuBois
05-02-2001, 08:16 PM
We are all God's children here. Every Jew, Muslim, Taoist, agnositc, and Mark ;) Gods' house has many rooms. There are 12 gates to the kingdom.

I think it is pretty presumptuous to say "our" way is the only way. A rightous man will be judged by God, whether or not he has heard of Him in the same way we heard about Him. I believe God will gladly take that righteous man into heaven. Those of us judging others may have a harder time.

chieffanphil
05-02-2001, 08:31 PM
Raiderhater has presented it clearly there is only one way to Heaven and that is through Jesus Christ the son of God

Luzap
05-02-2001, 08:58 PM
Gentlemen, I feel compelled to weigh in on this issue.

I have a feeling that I am older than most that are posting here ~ which means nothing other than that I’ve had more time to make mistakes in my life.

I do know, though, that most of the mistakes I’ve made have been because I came to conclusions with incomplete data ~ usually because I was too lazy to research the issue properly.

I would suggest that this is an issue that deserves more research than any other issue ~ after all, what are the stakes?

The answer to EVERY question I have seen in this thread is in Revelations. It can be a hard read without help. I recommend ‘Revelation Unveiled’ by Tim LaHay.

Why be ignorant about this? Can you make a judgement on a theology without understanding it first?

Many claiming the faith have dishonored it; many that mock it have misinterpreted it; many that ignore it don’t understand it; most that judge it have never read it.

If even one of you decides to make a short study of this one book of the Bible, I will feel that I am serving in the way meant for me.

BTW, I consider myself an amateur on the Bible, but I would be happy to aid anyone in further research.

Luz
It’s a whole new world boys ~ and it all makes sense…

Zebedee DuBois
05-02-2001, 09:07 PM
is a compassionate, loving God. He loves all His little children, all the children of the world.
My God is an awesome God for Whom all things are possible, not a capricious God standing at heavens' gate, saying " Well it says here in my ledger, that you grew up in South Pacific Islands, and tended the weak, aided the poor, and loved your neighbor as you would yourself... but you never heard of Me, so...Huh uh..too bad... no heaven for you! Tell Satan I said "Hey!"."

Mark M
05-02-2001, 09:09 PM
Okay ... how did I become the poster boy for those who don't believe? Oh yeah ... I guess with my past and present posts I am, aren't I? ;)

Luz--
I have read and studied the Bible a bit, as well as the history behind it, which is why I don't believe. To paraphrase Ambrose Pierce:

Faith: believing in unprovable words written by the unknowledgable about the unbelievable.

But I guess we all have to believe in something ... I believe I'll have another beer.

MM
~~Has faith in himself ... and that is all he needs.

Zebedee DuBois
05-02-2001, 09:12 PM
Mark, I was just razzin' ya.
Cautionary note: with your belief system, you could grow a gut, or wake up to skags! :D

Otter
05-02-2001, 09:30 PM
Mark,

Just like misery, eternal damnation loves company.

Ya don't think I wanna be down there shoveling all that coal by myself do ya?

And as I end yet another work night I beleive I'll follow the best advice I heard so far: "I beleive I'll have a beer".

Zebedee DuBois
05-02-2001, 09:36 PM
I'm pretty sure there is a separate heaven for Baptists. Otherwise it would be hell for everybody.
LOL :D

Raiderhader
05-02-2001, 09:46 PM
Originally posted by Zebedee DuBois
I'm pretty sure there is a separate heaven for Baptists. Otherwise it would be hell for everybody.
LOL :D


LOL! That holds special meaning to me. Great one Zeb.

(Nothing personal against the Baptist)

kcfanintitanhell
05-02-2001, 10:29 PM
So.....do dogs get into heaven? I don't think I could have an acceptable afterlife without my dogs.

tommykat
05-02-2001, 10:51 PM
Has anyone heard of THE ROMAN ROAD?
Just take note and maybe read this....

Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God. All have sinned.

Romans 5:8
But God commendeth his love towrd us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us....All are love now, just as they are.

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death. But, the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. The payoff of sin is death, seperated from God forever. But, salvation is a gift. It is free! It only comes through Jesus and not by works or church or just baptism. Just Jesus.


Romans !0: 9, 10
That if thou shalt confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and will believe in your heart you shall be saved. For with the heart man believes in righteusness and confessing with your mouth you shall have salvation. All it boils down to is believing and recieving.

Romans 10:13
For WHOSOEVER should call upon the name of Jesus will BE SAVED.

This isn't a thought. It is truth. I'm 42 and have been to my school of hard knocks. But in 1981 I turned my life over to HIM. It isn't a cake walk trying to live in this world, living for Jesus. People think it's an easy way out. I promise you it is very hard to walk the straight and narrow. Shoot, it's a lot easier to walk the way of the world than to walk in God's path. But you choose. For me, I choose to go with God and walk with him. I fall like a child often.
Imagine this picture..being a dad or mom if your child would fall off a bike or whatever, wouldn't you run out and pick your child up and hug them and tell them, it's OK baby, daddy is here. It's just a little boo boo? So that is what my Father does for me when I make mistakes daily. Just a thought to ponder...:cool:<< that is how I see it.

Armyofme
05-02-2001, 10:57 PM
always get people stirred up?

I'm actually surprised (and quite impressed) how the "non-believers" are not getting bashed here. This is why I feel it is at least semi-safe to express an opinion =) I like to think of myself as a "keep it to myself" kinda person...doubly so when speaking of religion, but here goes...

The people that blindly quote the bible and accept everything that is written in those pages as fact really scare me. Especially when they state it with such conviction. How is it that christians can say with such certainty that because you accept jesus as your savior before you die that they automatically go to heaven? To say that the Jew, Muslim or member of any flakey cult out there would not get into heaven because they don't accept jesus is arrogance, plain and simple.

Christianity is a cult that took off... I do believe that Jesus was an influential man in his day, a great speaker, nothing more. Stories travelled, embellishments with each telling grew the tales beyond belief and many years later, the books were written. The books were written in such a metaphorical sense that taking words, sentences, etc. at THE truth is just bizarre to me. I could go on and on listing the reasons why I don't think christianity has much of a leg to stand on besides the droves of people that believe in it (btw, the Muslim religion has more followers), but I won't. Does pure numbers make Windows a better operating system than other alternatives? No, but the ones who have allowed others think for them will defend it to the death. More wars are fought because of religion than anything else...silly, don't you think.

I have two young daughters and I am of the mind that one shouldn't "decide" one way or another until you are old enough to research, understand, and debate within yourself spiritually. Children should be taught to be good people first and the rest will follow. Yes, I went to church, listened to the preacher, and I tried to believe it, but it just never made sense to me. I would look at the little bible clones being quizzed on the bible and reciting verses back...freaky...do you think they chose to learn it with that much zest, or were their parents prodding them? Borderline brainwashing if you ask me. My daughters know what I believe and I have encouraged them to, when they are ready (and only they will know when that is), to research religion, see what makes them tick...if one hits you right, go for it. Who would I be to tell them what is right or wrong spiritually? Spirituality is a personal thing, not something you have to gather with hundreds of people on Sundays and give your offering to achieve.

Wow, I have written a book here. I hope I haven't crossed any lines here...this isn't meant to anger anyone, just show a different point of view, I guess.

<Godless and feels quite comfortable with it, thank you>

Rausch
05-02-2001, 10:59 PM
I totally agree, I just wasn't about to get the hornets buzzing! :-)


Of course, I own a Mac and any fellow non-windows user deserves a little support anyway!

tommykat
05-02-2001, 11:06 PM
Armyofme
You don't offend me at all. Everyone is entitled to their opions. But I have a question for you. Dod you read what I wrote? Then you would know that just believing isn't the right way. You have to confess Jesus with your mouth and not just say I am a good person or I believe. If a true believer is real I promise you, it shows on your face.
Children have an age of accountablity. When they are old enough to understand Jesus they will have questions. Are you ready to help them with the truth? As you, I don't like to step on toes, but I will when it comes to my faith in Jesus...:D

Rausch
05-02-2001, 11:15 PM
I was born and raised Catholic, and was required to read the bible in its entirity twice. I didn't memorize it as others have, but the general idea is there.

And from first hand experience in my area(and 12 years of Catholic schooling) us Catholics are some of the biggest hypocrites around. In one church your priest tells you one thing, another at another church, and I've gone on for 6 churches all to different answers AND different lectures on what the "Official doctorine of the Catholic Church" says...

It seems as diverse as the areas who build Churches. Religon is faith, which is a good thing. I have faith in many things, that does not make them true. I have faith that my girlfriend will not cheat on me when she goes out with friends, that does NOT mean that she won't. Or hasn't.

Faith is good, blind faith is not. At least I can admit my opinion of what "IS" can be wrong. I've never died, I don't know. I may be way off, you may as well. But I'm sure as spit not gonna' argue and tell you that you're wrong. Who knows?



I just take my vitamins, play well with others, and not support the Raiders...

tommykat
05-02-2001, 11:24 PM
Brad I will agree with your remark about the Raiders..LOL.

But I have a question for you as a Catholic. Why does this faith believe in prayer to the Mother Mary to go to Jesus? I know Catholics believe in Jesus, but why not go right to HIM instead of thinking you have to go to His Mother first? God choose her for a very special reason. But, we should go to HIM first and not through someone else. Just asking. I know my opion, just curious why you think this way.

Armyofme
05-02-2001, 11:37 PM
Yes, I read what you wrote...you started off with quotes from the bible...if there is one thing for me that will automatically classify someone as having blind faith (as Brad put it), quoting the bible is top on the list. You could see it on my face, huh? I had a person come up to me once and ask me if I had accepted the lord jesus christ as my personal savior because they felt like I had...it was just something about me that told him that I was a christian...a glow. PULEEAASE... recruiter... Eeww, I just got the willies thinking about it.

When you ask me if I will be ready to help my children with the "truth"... who's truth? My truth, your truth, Rev. Fallwell's truth? Noone knows the truth, the only person who can decide what is or isn't the truth is yourself. I am glad that you have found your version of the truth and I hope it serves you well, but to say that one religion is the truth is again, arrogant.

tommykat
05-02-2001, 11:48 PM
Armyofme
:) Thank you for calling me arrogant. That is cool with me. You didn't mean it as a compliment, but I will take it as one.

As far as quoting the Bible or scriptures as you said. It's just the Roman's Road to salvation. You can read your Bible and it does say this. But may I assume you think the Bible is just another book of sorts? What would you compare it to? Sci fi? Just wondering.

Armyofme
05-03-2001, 12:09 AM
To be completely honest, I wasn't meaning for it to come out as calling you specifically arrogant, just someone who believes that their way is the right way, no if's and's or but's. Now, if that is the way you believe, then yes, I guess I am calling you that ;)

<You can read your Bible and it does say this.>

You assume I have a bible? Hehe, no, no bible here... But yes, it would be placed in the fiction section of my library if I had one. No, not Sci-Fi, that is where I would place the Book of Scientology =) To me, the bible is based VERY loosly on historical events, and is interesting to see how people might have looked at life in that day in age. Do you see it as every word as fact? I'm not sure how anyone could with how many things being expressed metaphorically. That is why there are so many versions of the bible... each sect wants to interpret those metaphors to suit their agenda/views.

tommykat
05-03-2001, 12:32 AM
Armyofme
Since you have no Bible in your home, would you consider at least taking what I wrote and looking it up to read? You sound like an intellengent person, so why not just take the steps I wrote and and least read them? See if they don't make some sense to you. That seems fair doesn't it?

LapDog
05-03-2001, 12:48 AM
Man this is a great thread. Everyone here deserves a huge compliment for having such strong beliefs and presenting them so reasonably. I've always been impressed by most folks on this board. Now I'm almost dumbfounded. I haven't given futbol fans enough credit in the past (until I became one!).

LapDog
kudos to all

tommykat
05-03-2001, 12:51 AM
LapDog,
Sounds like you and Tommykat can get along well! Hang in..it only gets better..:D

Phobia
05-03-2001, 12:53 AM
Lapdog,

This board has lacked flame wars from the beginning! We have some friendly smackdowns and the token Packfan aboard but everyone is most civil - that's what I like about this place. It's not because we have strict mods looking over everyone's shoulder either - just a lot of classy members.

LapDog
05-03-2001, 12:56 AM
Otter-

The experiences you had with religion were an argument of mine for a long time. You should take a look at the book <I>People of the Lie</I> by M. Scott Peck. Ask yourself the question "If I were evil, how would I hide my true nature?". Most evil people (and politicians) go to church. It is part of the disguise they take on to fool society and possibly themselves. Just because many evil people go to church, does not mean that all church-goers are ugly hate-mongers. The evil ones just pay lip service and will even twist words to make good sound evil and vice versa. (Kind of like Liberals!:)). But many are sincere, honest and real. Take a sampling from the professed Christians on this board. They are good, reasonable people.

LapDog
still an Agnostic, to his Christian friends' consternation

LapDog
05-03-2001, 12:58 AM
Tommy and KPhobia,

Wow! I assumed nobody was still up. I've actually been lurking on this board since the beginning, and the Star before that. The Star was always too heated/rude/immature for my taste.

I have so many responses to people, I'm going to be typing for another hour!

Armyofme
05-03-2001, 01:05 AM
tommykat,
I'm not, but lets just pretend that I belonged to a group that believed that Hitler was jesus reincarnated and there was a book that followed his life. That book went on to explain how he was our savior, explained away all of the killing he was responsible for as sacrifices to God and made it seem as if he eventually died for us (hmmm...I may have just started a new religion :))... I know that is going to an extreme, but it is to make a point... Would you read some hand picked passages that I would have for you to take a look at? With an open mind that is... I'm not so sure. The bible holds about as much water, factually, as a book like this. Some of the parts are there, but the truth has been twisted to mean something completely different. If a religion of that sort were to blossom, 1000 years from now, people might take the words written as fact even though we all know it is bunk. Ahh, what I would give for a time machine...

So, the answer to your question is, reading your passages would do nothing to help me believe or make me a better person... I have read enough of it to know what it is all about. It is a lesson in morality, a good one at that, but I don't need the bible to teach me morality. I am already quite moral, thank you ;)

tommykat
05-03-2001, 01:08 AM
LapDog,
LOL..well I'm off tomorrow is the reason I'm still playing. But I do have a question for you. You sound like you don't believe, but in your typing and wording you do sound hungry for truth. That I am thankful for..:)I think there are many people here that believe as I and Kphobia do. Wait till the weekend when people are really online. Me?<<lol....just about ready to hit the ole bed. I'll check one more time to see if you have something to say. If not, take care and see you around the Planet~

Armyofme
05-03-2001, 01:11 AM
There is that "truth" word again :P

LapDog
05-03-2001, 01:19 AM
tommykat-

You're right. I am hungry. I have several Christian friends with differing perspectives who discuss, answer questions, and encourage. I'm sure they worry about me and are frustrated by my obstinance. My problem is that I have little faith in humans, including those who wrote the Bible, because I've been lied to over and over again. So, even though I want to believe, I'm afraid to do so.

Like I tell my friends, I won't be saved ahead of time. I'll be on the earth during the tribulations. Hopefully there will be enough evidence and fulfillment of prophecy, that I won't be able to intellectualize it away. Hopefully, in those times, I'll have faith and be able to take a leadership role in bringing others into the fold. In the mean time, I can only learn and seek faith.

LapDog
a believer who isn't willing to admit it!

tommykat
05-03-2001, 01:23 AM
Armyofme
First let me say that you could read the Bible a thousand times over and each time something that you have read would jump out at you again. Reading it one time or two won't give you what you need or are searching for. But if you think this, then it is up to you. However, I never stated anything about morality. Those are your words and not mine. I haven't/nor would I judge you. That is not my place. But believe it or not someone someday will. I just pray you are ready for that..:)

LapDog
05-03-2001, 01:27 AM
raiderhader-

Thank you for the quotes. It's what I was looking for.

One thing I didn't make clear in my analogy was that Jesus is the ONLY multi-millionaire who could deposit the money. So, in my original scenario, Jesus would still be the only way, but it wouldn't necessarily require belief that Jesus is the Son of God.

However, the first and fourth quotes seem to counter my perspective. I'll have to watch for more evidence like that when I'm looking at the Bible. The other two quotes you gave me only say that Jesus is the only way. They don't say you must believe; they only say that Jesus is the way.

I'm not entirely convinced yet, but I acknowledge that your comments weren't unfounded. Good work.

<corrected grammar error, how embarrassing>

tommykat
05-03-2001, 01:30 AM
LapDog,
Have you read the series of books Left Behind? If not, they are super easy and fun reading. That might help you out some. Email me if you would like to and we can talk.
Tommykat399@cs.com
Always glad to visit.
Take care and think on this some~

LapDog
05-03-2001, 01:39 AM
tommykat-

I've read the first four (maybe five). I'm particulary interested in the prophecy aspect of the Bible because I believe it is my only path to faith.

They are OK but probably a little too light for me. I find them a little frustrating because there isn't a commentary pointing out which parts are fiction and which are biblical.

One of the other posts mentioned a different book by LaHaye that sounded good, but I'm not convinced that LaHaye is interpereting Revelations the way I would (if I had more knowledge)

LapDog
05-03-2001, 01:46 AM
Originally posted by kcfanintitanhell
So.....do dogs get into heaven? I don't think I could have an acceptable afterlife without my dogs.


I sure hope so!

LapDog

LapDog
05-03-2001, 02:02 AM
Brad C and Armyofme,

I know what you mean about quoting the Bible. Most Christians just don't seem to understand that many non-Christians view the Bible as a totally dubious source, more of a fable or legend or political proganda than anything.

In more recent years I've come to believe that the Bible is a relevant and important historical document. A friend recommended the book <I>The Case for Christ</I> by Lee Strobel. It convinced me of many things regarding religion. It attempts to PROVE that Jesus was the son of God, was crucified, was reborn, ascended, and so on. It goes a long way.

If you decide to read it, give it a chance. He seems to leave holes in his arguments, but many times will address the logic flaws in following chapters. Also, he portrays himself as being 'independent' and 'intellectually honest', but it seemed to me that he didn't really understand the non-believers perspective any more. Don't let that turn you off, because his arguments are mostly valid.

Anyway, it still didn't convince me that the Bible contains the word of God or that Jesus is a deity. I can still think of some scenarios that he didn't adequately address.

LapDog
05-03-2001, 02:11 AM
Luzap-

Thanks for the book recommendation. I've agreed with many of your opinions in the past, so I'll have to check it out, despite the fact that LaHay has turned me off a little bit with his Left Behind series. Revelations is one of the most interesting books in the Bible to me, but I can't even begin to understand it. Maybe this book can clarify a few things for me.

Mark M
05-03-2001, 05:59 AM
For the non-believers out there (and even the believers), you might wanna check out: http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/robert_price/fiction.html

Quite interesting. Just read and draw your own conclusions.

LapDog--
The civility that is present on this board is why this is the only BB I post on. What's funny is that we argure more about the one thing we all have in common (the Chiefs) than we do about our differences (religious and political). Kinda funny, eh?

And since I've been a quoting fool lately, here's another one that I find hilarious (and after 5 hours of sleep, I need some humor):

I still say a church steeple with a lightening rod on top shows a lack of confidence.
-Doug McLeod

MM
~~Sleepyhead

ROYC75
05-03-2001, 07:51 AM
Armyofme.....

As for reading the bible....One must be willing to take into his heart what he reads or he just reads words. If you have no faith in the words you read,you just read words.

If one has never surrendered his life to Jesus,he does not have him in his heart. You won't feel the inner peace and joy of the Lord living inside you to know the difference. As a non-believier....you won't feel the difference until youhave experenced the difference.

God is willing to come to you,but you must be willing...you can't fool God...he knows your heart and when you are truthful......Keep in mind you can be a honest and truthful person to everybody and not with God ! You must be willing and want to be part of his fold to accept him.

Quoting scriptures will not lead you if you are not willing to take to heart....just being curious will not get you anywhere but a "Hot Time in Eternity ".

oleman47
05-03-2001, 08:22 AM
How to get to heaven, theology, has many mansions. Even among Christians there is much disagreement. To me the idea that my way is the only way limits the whole definition of God. It is difficult to believe that God is as unresourceful, retarded, obscure, mean, whatever as many paint the picture. Historically, the terrible things done supposedly with God's blessing is mind boggling and is not different now. You see the same rigidity now as then. But then there was not a wall between church and state and more and more countries are adopting this concept. It is scary when someone implies we need SDI to protect ourselves from the non-Christians as a local letter writer proposed. "Rogue nation" I didn't realize has a subcontext. It is just a small step from excluding most of the world from going to heaven with your theology then painting them as an enemy.

Lightning Rod
05-03-2001, 09:10 AM
First off I again offer my compliments to the BB members for their mature and civil tone that has been exhibited throughout this topic. If society could act with this degree of respect the world wold be a much better place.
Blah blah blah anyhow, as I’ve mentioned the truth of the matter is that I’m agnostic as such I am unsure as to the origin and extent of the universe. While many of us non-believers (Atheists and Agnostics) have a tendency to see Religious people as naive I have some envy of their inner peace. How much simpler life would be if one truly believed that our life was nothing more than a preseason game and we need not do anything other than believe and everything will be fine.
Sadly, I find this hard to swallow. As has been pointed out and quoted from the Bible if one takes a literal interpretation of the Bible only those who believe and accept Jesus are allowed into heaven. So in my original post Hitler makes it to Heaven but the kindly old Jew would not. This is contrary to my sense of morality And I find it an unacceptable component to any faith I could subscribe to. As arrogant and ridiculous as it sounds, I would have ask God for an explanation if we were to meet face to face.

ROYC75
05-03-2001, 09:30 AM
RCGChief..........

your quote............................As arrogant and ridiculous as it sounds, I would have ask God for an explanation if we were to meet face to face.


With a little paitence....you will meet God ...FACE TO FACE......I just pray that it is not to late for you to benefit from it !

Lightning Rod
05-03-2001, 11:11 AM
ROYC75
Thanks for your concern.
Just noticed your signature any fan of The Who can't be all bad:)

Armyofme
05-03-2001, 11:32 AM
It is funny how christians, in particular, assume that everyone else is lost and they are looking for someone to "elighten" them, to show them the way to accept christ into their heart. Christianity is not the only game in town. If they had been born in India, chances are that they would be Hindu. Does that make them any less likely to go to heaven? How can someone preach that with a straight face? Arrogance... I guess arrogance is the American way =)

Jews, on the other hand, are very passive with the way they go about practicing. They believe what they believe, and if you feel another way, they respect that and go on practicing without another thought. Very respectful people - in my experiences anyway. If I had any indication of believing in "God", I would probably be Jewish for that simple fact.

I have looked at other religions with an open mind and would have to say that the one that makes the most sense to me (which is all that really matters) is Buddhism. The premise is simple... The way to enlightenment is through being the best person that you can be... to strive for personal perfection. Take credit for being a good person, succesful person or an outstanding athlete. Why do you need to give thanks to anyone but yourself for your hard work and perseverance? That drives me crazy when athletes thank god for winning a game. Are you saying that god thinks that his/her team had the most believers on it, therefore he gave the game to them?

That is all I have time for right now... good discussions all.

Wrasse
05-03-2001, 11:56 AM
There is only one way to our salvation.

*raises his hands*

Only one way for our weary souls to get some much-needed rest! Only one way to the promise land!

*looks to the heavens and closes his eyes*

*Prays aloud, "Dear god...give the Chiefs strength on defense. Please find us a good FA OLB. Let us happen upon a large and fast CB. ...and throw in a defensive linemen or two!"*

For you are so big...so large...you are oh so very huge and powerful and stuff...whomever you are.

Can I get an amen!?!

Wrasse
05-03-2001, 12:11 PM
There is only one way to our salvation.

*raises his hands*

Only one way for our weary souls to get some much-needed rest! Only one way to the promise land!

*looks to the heavens and closes his eyes*

*Prays aloud, "Dear god...give the Chiefs strength on defense. Please find us a good FA OLB. Let us happen upon a large and fast CB. ...and throw in a defensive linemen or two!"*

For you are so big...so large...you are oh so very huge and powerful and stuff...whomever you are.

Can I get an amen!?!

Otter
05-03-2001, 12:52 PM
I can't beleive this thread is where it was last night at 2am!

Lapdog,

Like I said, I had the Christianity forced on me for twelve long years. I've heard that one and probably anything else you could give me.

I wouldn't doubt if I knew the background and philosiphies as well as you or Tommykat.

Its not for me. Its too contradicting and blind.

You think I'm wrong and I think your wrong. We don't all have to agree.

This is my last input to this topic, but before I'm done let me say kudos to the posters for keeping such a combustable topic civil.

otter
~not interested in re-visiting the pre-college years

Alphaman
05-03-2001, 01:54 PM
Wow!! What a topic. I'll try to be brief. By no means am I an expert, but I am an ordained minister.

To answer the original question...Hitler definitely goes to heaven if his repentance was sincere. God judges the heart and only HE will know the sincerity. As for the Jew, I am not sure on this issue. It is true that the only way to Heaven is through accepting Jesus Christ as one's Lord and Saviour. It is also true that the Jews (or Children of Isreal) were/are God's chosen people. I do know that there are Jews today who have accepted Jesus as the Messiah that was promised. Others have not and are still waiting on the promise. I honestly do not know how God will handle this. I do know that God CANNOT LIE and that he is SOVEREIGN. Somehow HE will work this out and it will be right. HE is the only one that can do so.

Many have stated or implied that they can't get with or understand the concept of Jesus as Savior or salvation only through him. I can understand that. Left to our brains and intellect to comprehend that issue, it would be nearly impossible. It is truly a FAITH issue. To accept that Jesus was the Son of God, born of a virgin, lived without sin, crucified on the cross and resurrected from the dead is not easy to accept. By FAITH I believe it all to be true.

Yes the Jews did sacrifices to atone for sin. Why? Because the only atonement for sin is blood. Jesus died on the Cross to be the final sacrifice or atonement for us. His blood has perfected us (or atoned us) to enter into the presence of God. If we choose not to accept that atonement, that is our choice, but we won't be able to claim that God sent us to Hell, but rather we chose to go ourselves.

While God calls us to live "Holy" lives, being a good person will not get us into Heaven. How good is good? The only entrance into Heaven is through Jesus Christ.

NaptownChief
05-03-2001, 06:32 PM
Another great read for believers and non-believers alike is called the Christ Conspiracy....

Good eye opener for everyone and a pretty good mind opener also for those whose aren't calcified shut.

LapDog
05-03-2001, 06:38 PM
Otter-

Thanks for posting. I hope I didn't offend you. I don't think you are wrong. I was just trying to give you more information to think about. I should have realized when you said '12 years' that you probably had already thought about these things.

Keep in mind I'm not a true believer. I'm just looking for answers and have done some research on the topic.

Peace to you and yours
LapDog

AustinChief
05-03-2001, 07:16 PM
Like Otter said,

I would like to add my appreciation (and amazement) that everyone posting on this topic has kept it so civil and above board. It is hard to find people who can have intelligent discussions anymore...

...a further testimony to Chiefs fans!

--Kyle

oleman47
05-03-2001, 07:29 PM
Don't quite understand how Hitler can go to Heaven after killing 6 milllion Jews and Jews cannot go to heaven. ( Bush said Jews couldn't go to heaven but Billy Graham said he should not be a preacher just be a governor, and Bush flipped. Or pleaded ignorance.) Actually, just going by the Bible you can do what you will if you have a good sales pitch at the end. Or you can lead a good life and take your chances? I can see a certain popular appeal here.

NaptownChief
05-03-2001, 07:34 PM
oleman,

That is the philosophy that I am taking...Live the life that I want, spend my Sunday worship on the couch watching football and when I get old I will do the cramming for a final approach that most old people do...

I think it is all hocus pocus as do many but just in case it is not, we all go through that last minute desperation change and sell it with sincerity...

oleman47
05-03-2001, 07:44 PM
Ji80
By George W. I think you got it!

HolyHandgernade
05-03-2001, 07:54 PM
jl80:

That is a great book. If you haven't already, do a search on Joseph Wheless. He is a bit wordy but his research and observations are incredible.

I'm a Deist and a Platonist and I don't subscribe to the ideas of Original Sin, blood atonements, and judgement by faith. I believe every person is entitled to their belief and that a relationship with God (or the rejection of such a relationship) is personal and can only be defined by the two persons involved, ie God and you.

That being said, although I don't agree with how Van Gundy of the Knicks handled the situation, I can understand his frustration. If someone else wants to believe, what I consider an elaborate fariy tale, that is their business. But, and it seems like Christians are the main practicers of this, it seems wherever one goes there is a bumper sticker, or fish decal, a knock on your door, or someone inquiring if you've found God yet.

You don't see a preponderance of Krishna bumper stickers, or crescent moon and star decals, or questions if I think I'm coming back as a lower or higher life form, or a knock with someone asking me if I'm upset whether or not the teach the caste system in the classroom.

I think a lot more restraint needs to be exersized so religious preferances don't spill over into laws and political candidates that are supposed to represent al the people. I know majority rules, but that doesn't mean religious values should be thrust on an unwilling citizen. Same for public spotlights. I don't think sports forums should be used to promote one religion or the other.

kcfanintitanhell
05-03-2001, 08:22 PM
Alphaman-In regard to your very last sentence of your last post, maybe you should have rephrased that as "only through Jesus Christ can one get into "my" heaven." God has given us all the ability to be unique, so maybe there is the possibility that heaven exists on different levels or planes.
And forgive me if I can't imagine that anyone that lost their lives defending our right to have this type of dialogue would be totally left out because they didn't accept Christ into their lives while they lay dying on the battlefield.

Herzig
05-03-2001, 08:40 PM
Only God is fit to sit in judgement of any human. We cannot try to walk in His shoes and make His judgements for Him.

Maybe I need to remind people that Jewish people believe in the entire Old Testament as their Scripture.

We as humans are not fit to speculate on the Salvation or Condemnation of our brothers and sisters whether they are Christians or not.

Multi1
05-03-2001, 08:41 PM
Hi All,

I don't know what will happen for sure to those that don't accept Jesus. I don't know what will happen to me after I die; however, I do have the hope of eternal life through Jesus Christ.

There are some that do not believe. Intellect can make you believe that you know what is true and what is not.

As for a young child that dies and knows nothing of "religion". There is an age of accountability, before that time all are returned to the father.

When time is no more, there will be those of us in heaven and those of us in hell. I sure hope that I'm in the heaven category. No mater what denomination of religion you subscribe to the alternative to Heaven is not good.

For those agnostics and atheists: I grieve for you for you have no hope. If you reject God........

kcfanintitanhell
05-03-2001, 08:54 PM
I have serious doubts about the human race coming even close at this point in our evolution to have the intellect necessary to be able to ascertain without a doubt as to what lies ahead in the afterlife. We can't even take care of the planet that we call our current home, let alone look ahead to our next.

Zebedee DuBois
05-03-2001, 08:55 PM
well said Grieg!

LapDog
05-03-2001, 09:10 PM
Tom-

Agnostics do not reject God. They merely aren't sure that he's there. Equally, they aren't sure that he isn't there. They are merely acknowledging that it is impossible for us here on Earth fully know the truth in these matters. By the dictionary definition, many Christians are also agnostics, because they recognize that despite their faith, they don't have enough emperical evidence to PROVE they are correct.

No need to grieve for us just yet. To say we have no hope is premature. Some or many of us may come to [your] faith later, hopefully before it's too late.

Even if we don't come around, there are a lot of people who have just as much faith, with just as much convincing evidence, who believe differently. In my mind, they are as likely to be correct as you are.

Who are you (or I) to state so emphatically and matter-of-factly that Agnostics and Atheists are doomed beyond all hope? Are you trying to SCARE us into agreeing with you or are you just trying to permanently depress us?

I'm sure you weren't judging us. I'll even agree that it may be appropriate for you to privately pray for us and publicly express concern for us.

But please, lighten up on the gloom and doom. We are all obviously taking the subject matter seriously and recognize it as something worthwhile to research, discuss, and study.

LapDog

tommykat
05-03-2001, 09:42 PM
LapDog can understand this..One of the easiest ways to understand God..or for me is this.

Imagine one of your children just fell off his/her bike or whatever. What do you do? Run out and pick them up and hold them right? Don't you tell them I love you and it's OK Mommie or Daddy is here? It's OK baby it's just a boo boo you are going to be OK. So after you hold them and kiss the boo boo they fell safe and love you. And off they go again. Only to know that they will have another boo boo happen and you will do the same thing for them as many times as it takes won't you?

This is how I see my Father taking care of me. Very simple explantion but it is true. Not talking different religions or Jewish people or whomever. Just a very simple way to understand how Jesus takes us in his arms when we sin (boo boo and fall down) and says, it's OK. I love you and we go on again.

Remember...KISS<<and I think you all know what that means don't you?

Blessings to all~;)

Luzap
05-03-2001, 11:04 PM
Without question, the biggest obstacle I had to overcome on my journey to faith was (and continues to be) my own pride.

Intellectually, I cannot fathom that I am a construct of a being so powerful that He could and does shape my entire universe, existence, and ultimate fate. Intellectually, this concept seems to make me a bit of a puppet and that is near impossible for my ego to accept.

Over the years, however, I have learned to question my ego. I can’t seem to remember too many situations where my ego has lead me to truth. Would religion be any different? I finally had to ask myself then, is my ego preventing me from feeling the truth of God?

This was not a short journey for me (and it continues to this day), but I have found that things I used to scoff are now making more sense to me. For example, to realize that a book that I used to consider totally allegorical has many different authors, has portions (books) that were written hundreds and even thousands of years apart, that many of these same books were written in totally different languages, that it contains thousands of details… and yet it all fits. Prophesies are realized, historical events are confirmed, details correspond, and the message remains clear (for those that are willing to hear it).

It has become obvious to me that this is much more than a simple historical document. There is power there.

All that I can tell any of you is that once I reached the point of asking God to help me with my faith, my life changed.

I cannot describe the difference in my heart, my attitude, my confidence, my sense of wholeness ~ Before, I never knew what I didn’t have.

LapDog, I think you will enjoy the book ‘Revelation Unveiled’ by Tim LaHay. I am not sure that I agree with every interpretation that he makes, but he gives his reasoning as well as opposing views and I find that it helped me in my understanding.

Luz
i can no more say that my belief in Jesus is just ‘my’ truth than some of you can say that the atomic weight of hydrogen is just ‘your’ truth. i know what I know…

Tomahawk 11
05-03-2001, 11:45 PM
I really tried to avoid this thread.

Tommycat, that was a cool example. I am a preacher's boy. Everyone shut up, I can hear you all saying "man PK's are the worst!" The sermon of my dads that I remember the most is one that he gave around Christmas time.

He talked about an old farmer who didn't believe in Jesus, but his wife did. His wife rounded up the kids every Sunday and went to church without her husband. One year on Christmas eve the woman rounded up her kids to go to the Christmas eve services and had been trying to get her husband to go. He refused.

It was cold and snowy out. The man used the excuse that he needed to stay and watch over the farm and keep the fire warm for when they got back. After they left he sat down to read the paper and enjoy his time by himself. Pretty soon he heard a loud thumping at the back window of the house. He went back there and turned on a light and could see birds flying right at the window trying to get in where it was warm. He decided to go out and lead the birds to the barn with a trail of bread crumbs, but they wouldn't follow. He tried for hours and hours to get them to go to the barn and they wouldn't go.

He finally gave up and went back to reading his paper. He couldn't help but continue to think about the birds. He then thought, "if I could just become one of them I could lead them." That is of course condensed, but you get the whole point anyway.

I am going to be getting married in September and we are in the process of finding a pastor other than my father to do the pre-marital counseling (my dad is doing the wedding though). I have heard a lot of people give advice about marriage, but the one thing that I seem to hear more often than not is that you need faith to keep your marriage together.

I have gone to church all of my life and I still have many questions and doubts. The whole belief that you have to go to church on Sunday in order to get to heaven gets me. I feel closer to God (whoever he/she is) when I am on a ski trip, in nature, and stuff. I don't think God minds the questions, I think he welcomes them and wants you to seek an understanding for yourself.

As far as whether other religions will make it into heaven, I think yes. When I had a class in college over the religions of the world, I found how extremely similar alot of the different religions are in the world. It's like they have a different route to the same town or something. It seemed like all the stories were pretty much the same, just the names were changed. I guess as long as you believe in something. I HOPE WE ALL GO! And I do mean ALL, even the people I totally despise (Broncos and Vikings).

LapDog
05-04-2001, 12:38 AM
Luz-

Forgive me for saying it, but you are a wise and intelligent man. I've been wanting to say that for a long time. This latest post is a prototypical example of why I appreciate your posts the most.

For me, pride and trust are the obstacles to faith. I keep thinking that I have control over my situation and everything that comes to me is a result of my actions. Even when I feel motivated to let go of that pride and put it in the hands of God, the inability to trust interferes.

I think it's really just a matter of time for me.

LapDog
wishing he could say it without giving the appearance of sucking up to a moderator

Luzap
05-04-2001, 01:10 AM
LapDog,

Your words to me mean more than I can express.

Thank you.

As to your journey... you may be closer than you think.

Luz
we'll keep the light on for ya...

Alphaman
05-04-2001, 05:37 AM
kcfanintitanshell,

Hey I live in Nashville or Titan Town. Is that where you live?

I don't have a heaven that people can go to.

If we believe that in heaven we will be in the presence of God, then how good is good enough to be in His presence. Is dying on a battlefield for the freedom of a country good enough. God said that ALL have sinned and come short of the Glory of God. God being perfect, pure, and Holy cannot allow ANY sin or impurity into His presence. That person or thing would immediately be consumed and die. So then NONE of us make it in, right? NO. Because there is a "cleansing" that comes from the blood of Jesus (i.e. an atonement). When we stand in the presence of God covered with the blood of Jesus we have been "purified" to enter his presence. How good is good enough? There is not enough good to qualify. Qualification comes only by accepting Jesus as Lord and Saviour.

For those who choose to live as they choose and then repent during old age or on their death bed, that is quite a risk to take. For many, death strikes quickly. What if there is not time to repent? Secondly, Jesus said that He came that we might have life and that more abundantly. There is an abundant life through Jesus Christ here on earth that many will for go. God as the creator, has a specific purpose for every person that He created. Only through him can we find that purpose.

tommykat
05-04-2001, 08:51 AM
I just want to say that I am very impressed with what I just read from the last couple of people.

LapDog, I too believe you are on the right road in your journey to God. Just continue to follow that light. It shines bright whether it is day or night. When you have followed that light and come close to the end, you will know and understand that light. He is Jesus. Have a great day all. Be back on tonight.

Iowanian
05-04-2001, 09:23 AM
First, I am a Catholic(hearing the gasps) and have struggled for a while. I believe the concepts and have strong Faith in general, but don't agree with everything the Church says....

I've got my own little "Iowanian concept of religion" and have posted this in the past. When you step back and study other religions, I think you can see many similarities in most...with some minor differences that are made into big issues....


I view religion in general as an old "wagon wheel"...with the hub being heaven and the spokes differnent paths to get there...I don't believe that there is only 1 path. We're all headed to the same place, just taking different paths to get there....

In football terms, We're all trying to get to Arrowhead on Sunday; some of us come down I35 while others come in from I-70...with a common destination..If we take the right turns, we'll all be there for kickoff.....Only this is the Superbowl.

Armyofme
05-04-2001, 09:32 AM
TomCash wrote:

"For those agnostics and atheists: I grieve for you for you have no hope. If you reject God........"

You have just turned a civil conversation into condemning a group of people who believe a different way than you. You have just crossed that line as far as I am concerned...

C'mon, are you that vein?

Please, take me off of your "grieving" list. I wouldn't want to take up any of your valuable worship time on little ole me...

Iowanian
05-04-2001, 09:59 AM
army,

I'm a gambler. I choose to look at this like I would a Blackjack game. I've got a 20 showing and the dealer has the ace up....I'm not "sure" what he has under, but I'll just assume its a 10.

with church, I'm buying insurance so I can stay in the game after this hand...When I die, and if your beliefs are correct, I'll never know it. When you pass on, and find that there Is a God,...You're the one who has to pay the pitboss...

~play your card how you see em'...but its a mighty risky bet.

Brock
05-04-2001, 10:06 AM
On the other hand, if the Jews are right, you Christians are in for a big surprise.

Baby Lee
05-04-2001, 10:38 AM
armyof me - where do you get comdemnation out of grieving?

And on a more general theme [ie., not specific to you army], this is the one that has always gotten me. How can someone who states that are atheist give a rats a$$ if someone else believes that they are gonna face retribution in the afterlife? If I say [and I never have to anyone] "you are damned to eternal hellfire for your non-belief," wouldn't your non-belief mandate that this pronouncement merits no more than a shoulder shrug?

I think those who do not believe attribute a lot of baggage to the message of Christianity. It is available to anyone, anywhere, anytime with the simple act of belief, the pronouncement of faith. If a believer grieves the non-acceptance of another, if should be because he loves that person and wishes to see him in eternity. Judgment should not be imputed to him, and if it turns out that he is indeed judging you, he now has his own spearation from God [in the form hubris, the very trait that cast Satan down] to deal with.

Armyofme
05-04-2001, 10:39 AM
Iowonian,

So, what you are saying is that you believe because you a scared of the alternative? Good reasoning... Do you think that god would see through that? Hmmm...if he is what they say he is, I think so. Do you think he would want you to believe simply out of dread for the consequences? Maybe in the old testement, but in the new...doubtful.

Armyofme
05-04-2001, 10:46 AM
JC,

It is not the grieving "word" that was at issue... it was the whole sentence, mainly the "for you have no hope" part. Sounds a bit condemning to me.

It doesn't bother me that someone says I am going to hell, it bothers me when I see someone of the human race be so completely idiotic as to tell me I have no hope because I believe differently. Who are they to judge me?! Really?

Baby Lee
05-04-2001, 10:49 AM
Believing with all your heart and hoping with all your heart that others believe as well is quite different from judging others. However, I agree that it is often difficult to tell which someone is doing.

Iowanian
05-04-2001, 10:50 AM
Fear doesn't have anything to do with it....I would say the exact opposite. I am thankful during good days and find "comfort" during trying times due to my faith and belief...

My main point was that by being a person of faith(although, not as devout as others) I have absolutely nothing to lose in believing..whereas a nonbeleiver has everything to lose. If I spend my life believing In GOD and doing the things that I'm told will allow me into heaven....if nothing else..it makes me a good neighbor...I help others in need, don't steal, don't rape pillage or plunder....basic moral pricipals(and I'm not suggesting that a non-believer isn't moral--right mark;) )

When a religous person finds themselves in a trying situation such as in a hospital waiting room, or scared...they have the option to pray for assistance which usually gives them comfort.....what harm can come from that....I think God answers all prayers...the answer is just "no" sometimes.

~I'm every bit as convinced that there is a god as I am that grass is green and the sky is blue.

Baby Lee
05-04-2001, 10:52 AM
I can't speak for Tom, but his statement "for you have no hope" can be interepreted as "I love you and wish for you the hope I have through Christ" as opposed to your reading of "I pity you for you don't have what I have"

oleman47
05-04-2001, 11:08 AM
Brock!
Great post!

Lightning Rod
05-04-2001, 12:12 PM
Iowan- I had read your wagon wheel concept before and must admit I find it far more palatable than most of the rest.

Additional questions- again not put forth to offend just curious as to the answers I will get.

Let us just take as fact for the sake of this scenario that God created Heaven and Earth and that the main parts of the Bible happened as they are generally said to have. Do any of the believers whom follow a literal interpretation of the Bible worry that since it was written by humans, translated from one language to another to another worry about human error? There are sites on the web that one can type a sentence in English and get a translation to another language. If you take a sentence translate it to Spanish then to say, German and then back to English the sentence will not be the same as the one you started with.

LapDog
05-04-2001, 12:33 PM
Oh, great....
A burning folder...
Does this mean we are all going to burn in hell?


Army - I like the way you think.

JCJohnny - Tom's "no hope" statement really rubbed me the wrong way, too. That wasn't an expression of concern. It was more akin to a typical hellfire and brimstone approach that attempts to put the fear of God into people. It's the stick designed to scare people away from Satan. The carrot approach would be the love and salvation of Jesus Christ.

Iowanian - I loved the wagon wheel idea, even though I'm not sure I agree with it.

LapDog

Iowanian
05-04-2001, 12:36 PM
rcg,

I'm definitely no Biblical scholar, and as a matter of fact, many of the popular religions think I'm the Debil for being Catholic...

If you read, I admit to having some issues...your interpretation question is one of my issues...I really don't think the main concepts are incorrect, but language translations are different...

It reminds me of a joke about the pope dying, going to heaven and ST Peter asks him what he wants to do first...he asks to read the original bible text...after weeks of reading heaven is awoken to a shrill scream....they run into see what the matter is and the pope's response is "IT says celeBrate!!!!"

All I know is that I know what I beleive, and I'm not trying to push my views on anyone...I just know what I beleive and that there is no question in my mind as to the existance....and like I said..If I'm wrong...I'll never know...but I truely do think I am not.

Brock
05-04-2001, 12:50 PM
Iowanian, you keep saying if you are wrong you will never know it. I submit to you once again that if the New Testament is invalid, you will know you were wrong.

Iowanian
05-04-2001, 12:51 PM
Brock,

Please elaborate....What I am speaking about is the actual "existance" that some of you dispute...

~not an old testament scholar either.

Brock
05-04-2001, 12:56 PM
If the God of the Old Testament is in fact THE God, and the New Testament is a made-up scam, then you have been following a false messiah and engaging in false worship. Based on what I know about the OT God, the ramifications for you won't be pleasant. Thus, you will be quite aware that you were wrong. If you are wrong.

Gaz
05-04-2001, 01:01 PM
Good point, Brock-

The OT God is kinda scary when he waxes wroth.

xoxo~
Gaz
Hunkering down.

Iowanian
05-04-2001, 01:04 PM
Brock,

I understand your angle better now....I can't sit here and quote verses like so many can. My response is mearly that a large majority of my religion is based on the NT....the life/resurection angle.....

When I talk about "IF I'm wrong"....I really am not promoting(my) one religion...I mearly mean that IF I were wrong and upon my death there wasn't a GOD...than my life would simply extinguish like a turned off light switch...

I'm a little more liberal in my general beliefs....I know that many religions don't agree with some points of mine...MOF, the grandmother of a gal I'm dating doesn't think much of me mearly because I'm Catholic...

I guess thats where my disagreement lies....I don't beleive that "MY Religion, ie..catholic" will be the only ones in Heaven.....I think all good, Believing people will have their day of judgement....hopefully I can make it in the gate, and my Earthly deads will be considered....ex. changing the old ladies tire in the rain etc...

Brock
05-04-2001, 01:04 PM
Just pointing out that if Iowanian is truly a betting man, he should play the percentages and convert to Judaism. They are given a free pass.

Armyofme
05-04-2001, 03:23 PM
OMG (just an expression...) Brock! I love that playing the odds stuff! The Jews have it made, huh?

Alphaman
05-04-2001, 07:02 PM
Brock,

Here's the problem with the bet. The Old Testament in fact points to Jesus in the New Testament. Beginning with the conversation after Adam sinned, when God told the serpent (Satan) that he would bruise the heel of the woman's seed, but the seed would crush the head of the serpent (Satan), all prophesy in the Old Testament proclaimed the coming of Jesus Christ.

That's a sucker bet that cannot be won.

kcfanintitanhell
05-04-2001, 08:14 PM
My allergies in this Tenn climate are really kicking my butt tonight, so I may be a bit slow in the uptake-but that is exactly what I find amazing about the bible: one can take a phrase like, what was it?-the bruised heel of a seed?-and somehow that becomes the prophecy for the coming of Christ? I'm sorry, but I don't get it at all. Someone else may be able to take the same phrase and make it into just about anything they want. And to me, that's the beauty and danger of the bible-because people have been doing that for a long time-twisting and turning its contents to make their interpretations fit their agenda. There is a book by Alan Watts called "The Most Dangerous Book Ever Written" (not real sure about the title-been a long time since I read it) that chronicles and documents exactly that.









A-man - in response to your question a few posts ago, I am a transplanted Chiefs fan, living in Antioch.

tommykat
05-04-2001, 08:18 PM
Most prophesy is in the Old Testament. Daniel, Isaiah, Ezekiel.....more all the way through. For some reason people are always frightened by Revelation. I was before I became a Christian. But when you read it, after Chapter 3 the Church as we know it is not mentioned again. That is because the church (believers) are taken out, then the tribulation begins. This is when the ones that didn't believe in Jesus will go through hell on earth. No espcaping. You can't kill yourself even though you would give anything to do so. Not to bring anyone down. Just a little explanation....:)

Brock
05-04-2001, 09:42 PM
Brock,

Here's the problem with the bet. The Old Testament in fact points to Jesus in the New Testament. Beginning with the conversation after Adam sinned, when God told the serpent (Satan) that he would bruise the heel of the woman's seed, but the seed would crush the head of the serpent (Satan), all prophesy in the Old Testament proclaimed the coming of Jesus Christ.

That remains to be seen. The Jews are still awaiting their messiah, so your interpretation of Old Testament prophecy is hardly universal. The only prophecy I can glean from the OT which has inarguably been fulfilled is that the Kingdom of Israel would be resurrected, as happened directly after WW2. Interesting to note that this is an OT prophecy from Isiah I think, or maybe Daniel.

Luzap
05-04-2001, 10:54 PM
I will admit to being a little frustrated here. So far, just about every question raised IS addressed in the Book of revelations.

I guess now I know how my 10th grade English teacher felt when we had discussion on Shakespeare and nobody in the class had bothered to read it.

Please understand that I am not condemning anybody hear ~ IMO Revelations is the hardest Book in the Bible to understand. Like other parts of the Bible, you have to be able to distinguish when John is discussing events in Heaven from events on Earth. Likewise, you need to know when he is relating allegorical symbols as compared to real-life observations.

Unless you become very aquatinted with the Bible, you have no realistic way to make these distinctions ~ and therefor, no real way to make an evaluation.

What I’ve just stated is logical and real. For those of you that have any portion of your being undecided, doesn’t it make sense to check it out?

Don’t you want to know the answers to your questions (or challenges)?

I assure you, the answers exist.

Again, I recommend ‘Revelation Unveiled’ by Tim LaHay.

Luz
What kind of man refuses elucidation???…

HHandgernade II
05-05-2001, 09:47 AM
I don't see the continuity in the Bible that was posted of earlier. I mean you start with one account of creation, "In the beginning" and then it completely contradicts itself a few chapters later with "In the day". In the new testament, Matthew gives his ancestry of Jesus, and later Luke completely contradicts him with his in names and number (I've heard the Mary's lineage apology, it is rather weak).

But, the most disturbing aspect is that the NT "editors" completely twisted every so called "prophecy" from the OT so that it appears as though it points to Jesus. Because not to many people read and understand Hebrew (that are Christians, that is) they are not even aware of it. Take the "virgin birth" prophecy in Isaha related in Matthew. The most striking thing about this passage in the Hebrew scriptures is that it is written in the PAST tense. It is not a virgin SHALL conceive and SHALL call his name Immanuel. It is a woman DID conceive a CALLED his name Immanuel. Also, there are two different words for "virgin" in the Hebrew vocbulary. The more traditional one meaning not known by man is not the one used. It is instead the one used to describe a young woman of child bearing or marrigable age. Also, this "sign" had its purpose in an event of that OT time. It refers to a war being waged by Azah the King of Judah against the Kings of Israel and Syria. It has nothing to do with a Messiah.

If you want the full scoop, do a search for Joseph Wheless. His book, "Is It God's Word" is available on line. Go to chapter XIII, The "Prophecies" of Jesus Christ. He goes through each prophecy from each gospel and explains what it actually said in the Hebrew Bible and what it refers to. This is why the Jews don't believe in this religion, they took their scriptures and made it fit what is essentially a Pagan tradition.

HHandgernade II
05-05-2001, 09:56 AM
As for Revelations, it is mostly astrological in nature. It is describing planets, the sun, and the constellations. It is actually a takeoff of earlier Mystery Cults, and it was fiercely debated whether or not it would make the cut for the "canonized" Bible. A lot of what is supposedly written about Jesus has many parallels in what is written about Krishna. The whole rider on a white horse with a sword thing. How does one vote what is "inspired" and what is not anyway?

Zebedee DuBois
05-05-2001, 10:11 AM
HH II,
You make a good point about the books that are included in our Bible, being debated on - for inclusion. A political process. Mans' politics comes into play all the time. There were reportedly as many as 17 "gospels" written in the early days after Jesus' death, and only four made the cut. One of the more known was the Gospel of Mary, which I think XFiles refered to as heritical earlier this season or last. According to one of the accepted Gospels, the ressurected Jesus first appeared to Mary, who went and told Peter. Peter ran to the grave and found nothing. You might think that this would indicate that Christ favored Mary, yet her gospel was not included in the Bible.

HHandgernade II
05-05-2001, 10:18 AM
Yeah, there is also The Gospel of Thomas, The Gospel of Phillip (which has one of my favorite lines "Become not a Christian, but a Christ..."), The Gospel of Valentinus, etc. There is a book called "The Other Bible" that reprints these gospels and more including the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Kablah.

tommykat
05-05-2001, 03:53 PM
May I ask where you got........reportedly as many as 17 "gospels" . That's a new one to me. And how only 4? and the rest got cut?? Sounds like a team cutting players. Just curious.

LapDog
05-05-2001, 04:05 PM
tommykat,

I hope I'm not insulting you here; don't mean to.

One of the reasons many question the Bible is because it's really a collection of many books. There are many other books, not just Gospels, that weren't included. The early church decided which books to include and which not to include. Some people say that the early church was politically motivated and by choosing some books and rejecting others, they manipulated what people believe.

LapDog
not an expert, please correct me if I'm wrong

Zebedee DuBois
05-05-2001, 04:08 PM
Many of Jesus contemporaries,(disciples and friends) wrote their own recollections about Jesus, and these books are refered to as gospels. Some were written several decades after the death of Christ.

At some latter point in the early church, it was decided to make a collection of these stories and other writtings about Jesus (like Pauls letters) and combine them into a book we now call the Bible. Only the gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John made the cut (to use a football term).

Now it has been many years and many beers since I took those bible courses in school, so I am open to correction, but I think the book of Revelations was one book that was on the bubble, but made it in.

HolyHandgernade
05-05-2001, 05:56 PM
Tommycat,

At a former Christian site called Nab Harambi in Egypt, they unearthed a "Christian Library" containing many scrolls that circulated about the Christian faith. Here are some:

The Gospel of Truth, The Gospel of Thomas, The Gospel of the Ebinoites, The Secret Gospel of Mark, The Apocryphon of James, The Gospel of Bartholomew, The Gospel of Nicodemus, The Gospel of Hebrews, The Acts of John, The Acts of Peter, The Acts of Paul, The Acts of Andrew, The Acts of Thomas, The Ascension of Isaiah, The Apocolypse of Peter, of Paul, of Thomas, Christian Sibyllines, and The Mystical Theology of Pseudo-Dionysius.

Chruch fathers said they chose four to represent the four winds described in the OT. In reality, it was probably the four dominate sects of Christianity that got their version in. This all occured at the Council of Nicea in the fourth century if your interested.

kcfanintitanhell
05-05-2001, 06:15 PM
I remember reading a long time ago (seems most things happened a long time ago) about reincarnation being one of Christ's original doctrines, and after his death was phased out by his disciples as being too much of a "hard sell" for a fledgling religion to deal with. The only thing I remember was the passage where Christ was asked something to the effect that "must a man be born again...?"
To which Christ replied, "Verily, verily." How many ways can that be interpreted?

HolyHandgernade
05-05-2001, 08:20 PM
Actually, it wasn't because it was a hard sell. Most of the higher thinking church fathers were Greek and learned in Platonic thought. Platonic thought discusses the transmigration of souls. Origen was one who tried desperately to combine Christianity with Plato.

In the fourth century, after the council of Nicea, a young Christian named Arian began a brew-ha-ha when he posed a question. Unless the soul is reincarnated, it would infer that Jesus is not the same as the Father because the Father begat the Son. Thus, they were not equal. If the soul transmigrates, however, you could make an argument that Adam was the first human incarnation of the soul that was Jesus.

This did not sit well with the opposition, who maintained that God makes all souls and that there is a great chasm between the Divine and the physical. That Jesus, God, and The Holy Spirit were one and the same, and thus equal. (This is by the way, where the Holy Trinity theory came from. This is interesting because Matthew, supposedly completed before this time, gives the Jesus seal of approval to preach to the gentiles with 'Go and preach unto all nations, baptising in the name of the Father, the Son, and The Holy Spirit'. Before, Jesus had always said 'In the name of the Father') Even though Constantine was said to favor the position of Arian, he left it to the Church to decide. The opposition won, and from that point on, reincarnation or transmigration was considered heretical by church decree.

It should be noted that almost every other religion or philosophical theory on afterlife considers the idea of reincarnation or transmigration of the soul to be the most logical (outside of the Biblical three). A physical resurrection allows for no depth in the spiritual context and allowed the Church to set itself up as the great interpreter for God's plan for the afterworld. It is no coincidence that the "Dark Ages" coincided with the rise of the "Great Light of Christianity".

tommykat
05-05-2001, 09:00 PM
First off let me say that nothing will offend me. Your opions are yours and mine are mine. All I try to do is help people see the way to Jesus.

Now, questions.....At a former Christian site called Nab Harambi in Egypt...I looked this up and found what it is. Do you have a link to show what you are talking about? That is always helpful. Also, my link will be the Bible and you can go to Blue Bible.com and it will show you Hebrew, Greek, most all you want to know.

So what is the logic you are trying to convey about reincarnation again? Also, the verily, verily comes out of Matthew 18:3 talking to the people about being born again. No you can not go back into the womb as he thought. But Jesus sat a child down and said unless you turn from your sins and become as little children in your thinking you will never get into the Kingdom of Heaven.


Example: I have used this, but try to read and think..
If you are a father or mother and your child falls off a bike or gets a sidewalk burn, wouldn't you go running out and pick them up and kiss them saying "I love you, it's OK I'm here"? Humans would. Same as with Jesus. When I fall down, he is always there to pick me up and tell me it's OK. Believe me.....I have been to the school of hard knocks many times! Not fun, but still smiling..:)

kcfanintitanhell
05-05-2001, 09:01 PM
Interesting, Mr HH. Have you ever noticed in your reading that most of the philosophers and experts in the Eastern religions easily find correlations with their beliefs and Christianity, while the opposite, to my somewhat limited knowledge, never occurs?

kcfanintitanhell of Antioch (Tennessee, that is)

tommykat
05-05-2001, 09:20 PM
HH...
May I ask where you have done all your studying?

kcfanintitanhell
05-05-2001, 09:36 PM
HH-Have you ever checked out the book "Urantia"? A difficult read-I gave up after 500 pages or so, but would love to read the cliffnote version.

HolyHandgernade
05-05-2001, 09:40 PM
Tommycat,

Sorry, I was trying to draw off memory and I did so badly, the correct spelling is Nag Hammadi. A thousand pardons. I wasn't referrancing a site, just what I have read. It was discovered in 1945 in Upper Egypt and included many of the Secret Gospels.

kc,

I'm not sure exactly what you are trying to say. It is true that most eartern religions are very tolerant of other beliefs, one can be a Hindu Christian, Taoist Buddhist, or a Confucian Hindu. Christianity is very intolerant, however, believing it to be "right". There is no other "way".

The point of the argument was whether our souls are of God, in other words, we are all "sons of God", or whether we are not divine until we accept God. I don't believe there is "one" way, and I don't care if Christians want to believe in theirs. But keep it your personal philosophy. If you really believe Jesus is coming back and will reestablish his kingdom here, wait til he does, don't try and build it for everyone else. I'm not imposing my religion on the rest of the population, Christians should operate likewise. Just love your neighbors as you would have them love you and defer judgement to God when he comes. I have no problem with this, and believe if everyone followed it, there would be few problems in this world. This does not mean everyone should be Christians, almost every religious/philosophical thought incorporates the "golden rule". I'm not saying I know with absolute certainty that I am "right" and you are "wrong" or vise versa. I'm saying, that with the reason God gave me to discern this world that is governed by reasonable laws of physics and nature, Christianity makes little reasonable sense TO ME. For you, it may make perfect sense, and that's fine. But, for those of us who don't buy it, give us the opportunity to develop our own relationship with God.

I promise I won't make any bumper stickers, decals, or knock on your door to tell you about it.

HolyHandgernade
05-05-2001, 09:52 PM
I was a History major at KU before I ran out of money my junior year! Most of my study is independant, though, I hear lectures from Pierre Grimes on Platonic Thought, www.openingmind.com if your interested in browsing. I've read alot, from both sides of the argument. I believe people who follow what Christ was saying are great people. I consider myself to have a "Christ Consciousnes". I don't subscribe to the dogma or mythological aspects but I can accept the moral teachings.

I haven't read "Uantia". What is the subject matter? Sometimes authors get a little too wordy even though the subject material is good. Wheless is like that, but his research is first rate. I really enjoyed Brian Green's book on Superstring Theory, "The Elegant Universe". He explains some very complicated physics in easy to understand fashion. But, when trying to describe theoratical mathematics, it can't help but to get a little dizzy!

HolyHandgernade
05-05-2001, 09:54 PM
My wife is calling me to bed and it isn't even bed time, so I gotta go. Talk back at ya tomorrow, enjoyed the conversation.

Peace.

LapDog
05-05-2001, 10:00 PM
&lt ... as St. Peter scribbles a note ... &gt

HH considers carnal pleasures to be a higher priority than learned holy discourse. This shall not pass without mention.

;)

Zebedee DuBois
05-05-2001, 10:07 PM
LOL snort, LapDog, you dog...
Hey, your avatar is spinning, it wasn't doing that before!
Of course, I had a couple of margaritas this evening.
Happy Cinco de Mayo!

kcfanintitanhell
05-05-2001, 10:14 PM
HH- "Urantia" is a book written by souls the Hindus call "helpers", spirits from the lesser planes, definitive "ghost writers", if you will. It is over 5000 pages long, and attempts to convey just what God is, and what God is all about. Urantia is actually the real name for planet Earth. Like I said, it's a tough read-a lot of rambling punctuated by some real poignant moments. Basically, in my reading less than a tenth of it, I got: 1) God is very busy-because it's a huge universe; 2)God, as powerful as he is, cannot be everywhere in the universe at once, but he will be back eventually to see how we're doing, and see if we have utilized what he left us with the last time he was here. And as far as I got into the book, the Bible was not mentioned as the thing he left us with the last time he was here. But I guess that's not to say that the Bible wasn't mentioned on page 501.

tommykat
05-05-2001, 11:01 PM
HH...

Nothing personal, BUT let's not go where no man has gone before....:D

Again, nothing personal, just not into what you are. Nor do I think most are.

HolyHandgernade
05-06-2001, 08:24 AM
Deferrance to St. Peter duly noted...

Thanks for the info on the boof, sounds daunting. My birthday was last April, my wife threw me a surprise party and gave all the attendees a suggested book list, so my unread library is pretty full right now! I will look into that book, though. I don't know how familiar you are with Brahmic time, but it is measured in multi-millions of years. Creation goes in cycles in Hindu thought, and we are supposedly (surprise, surprise) near the end of one such cycle.

We may believe different things, but at least we all follow the one true religion of Chiefs football! ;-) Hope your way always leads to the most positive outcomes.