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View Full Version : NFBT Bush and teacher abuse.


oleman47
05-07-2001, 04:39 PM
Bush is supporting bill to restrict the right of a parent to sue a teacher or school system for physically abusing their child. The Supremes had previously ruled that since parents could sue that "cruel and unusual punishment" did not apply to schools. What do you conservatives think about some teacher smacking your kid around and you losing your right to sue or seek any redress?

LapDog
05-07-2001, 04:56 PM
:D
Looking for a fight?

I'm done fighting today. But, do you know which bill it is? House or Senate?

LapDog

oleman47
05-07-2001, 05:39 PM
It is called the Teacher Protection Act, and NYT says it is before Congress so I assume the House first. The New York Times opinion is as of 5-7-2001. I did not quote what they said so as not to promote a fight!

Tomahawk 11
05-07-2001, 08:40 PM
I'm not a conservative, but....

I think that corporal punishment could be useful in schools again. It was being phased out in my early years at elementary school. I remember it kept eveybody scared for the most part. From time to time there would be someone that wouldn't care, but you'll get that with anything.

The old fashioned rule back then was that whatever you got at school you got double at home. I don't think that parents these days will do that. It seems like the majority of them want more than anything to be good friends with thier kids instead of holding them accountable.

I used to work at a DYS facility in the KC area. I was a youth specialist, not a teacher. But often times I was at work in a school setting. It was the whole "tough love" approach. The kids were held accountable for thier mistakes.

There was no beating that went on at any time. If a kid would refuse to do things, or would become out of control I could put my hands on him/her and direct him. You can't do that in public schools and I think teachers should be able to.

Teacher's are threatened with law suits for holding a kid by the arm and moving them to where they need to be moved to these days.

That's my non-conservative/non-liberal answer.

Cannibal
05-07-2001, 09:05 PM
Some of these teachers are literally dumber than some of the students they teach.

I wouldn't want some stranger laying a hand on my kid (if I had one).

The responsibility lies w/ the parents, people seem to keep forgetting that.

Pitt Gorilla
05-07-2001, 11:16 PM
Originally posted by Cannibal
Some of these teachers are literally dumber than some of the students they teach.

Is that dumber in aggregate knowledge, including experience, or is it IQ? Seriously.

Clint in Wichita
05-07-2001, 11:28 PM
If teacher touches my kid, I'll wipe the bottom of my shoe on their pancreas.

Pitt Gorilla
05-07-2001, 11:38 PM
Clint,
What a wonderful example you're setting for your child. I'm embarrassed for you.

Clint in Wichita
05-07-2001, 11:47 PM
If you want to let a teacher do your job for you, be my guest.

I thought conservatives DIDN'T want government assistance. I guess I was wrong.

DaWolf
05-07-2001, 11:49 PM
I agree, it isn't the teacher's job to do what the parents should be doing...

oleman47
05-07-2001, 11:54 PM
In Texas, 80,000 students were disciplined physically, mostly with paddles. Would you prefer to have the right to redress if an over zealous teacher whacked in anger?. Or would you prefer not to have this opportunity?
The point here is not so much a discussion of teacher abuse but the parents right to redress. This act is part of tort reform to block so-called frivolous legal action.

As a libertarian, less law is good. But as parent of many kids my faith in teachers is not enough to give up a legal right. There are laws against murder with which I agree and my less law, ie less gov't, I overlook for a just and more perfect society.

Those that are pro-life can use my argument of a just and more perfect society for these concepts are different for different people. However, the pro-lifer cannot say that less law,ie less gov't, is good and destroy free chioce.

What I see is a conflict of reason for both liberals and conservatives. (I did not frame the issue for liberals, since they are an endangered species on this BBS. Not enough mouths to make a thread.)

Pitt Gorilla
05-07-2001, 11:54 PM
Clint,
I'm not a conservative. I am working on my phd in education. Are you really DUMB enough to assault someone? What sort of infantile rage of idiocy overwhelms you enough to "wipe the bottom of my shoe with their pancreas?" Maybe, when confronting the problem, you should look deeper, and closer, for the answer.

Clint in Wichita
05-08-2001, 12:06 PM
Do you have kids? Probably not.

If you want to let some half-wit public school teacher physically discipline your kid, go ahead.

Pitt Gorilla
05-08-2001, 12:36 PM
Clint,
First of all, you're avoiding my questions. Secondly, I don't see where I stated any sort of position on the matter, let alone wanting "to let some half-wit public school teacher physically discipline my kid." Finally, I don't have kids. However, if I did, I would certainly try my best to set a good example for them, whether that be in my everyday actions or even in a public forum. I'm not sure how you can expect your children to grow up when you refuse to do so yourself.

HC_Chief
05-08-2001, 12:45 PM
I do not support corporal punishment - that's the parent's job/responsibility.

I DO support giving teachers the right to boot troublesome kids out of their classes - for any reason. The teacher is the authoritative figure in the classroom and deserves to be respected as such. If a kid misbehaves or is a nuisance and detriment to the learning of his/her fellow classmates, then the teacher should have every right to rid himself/herself of that problem. Detain the problem kid (principal's office or security office) and notify the parents. If the problem persists, kick the kid out of school <i>indefinitely</i>.

Make problem kids the parent's responisibility - force them to deal with it. Let teachers <b>teach</b>.

Clint in Wichita
05-08-2001, 01:09 PM
Pitt Gorilla,

You are simply a jerk. When I say "wipe my boot on their pancreas", are you so ignorant that you take my words literally?

When you have a kid, come back and continue this debate. Until then, you are not qualified in any way to give an intelligent opinion on this topic.

Gaz
05-08-2001, 01:12 PM
HC_Chief just gave you the correct solution. If a kid disrupts class, kick his butt out. Let the parents handle the discipline, the teacher's job is to teach. If an unruly student is an obstacle to teaching, remove the obstacle. The rest of the students in class should not suffer due to the antics of one bad apple.

xoxo~
Gaz
Weeding out the bitter fruit.

Lightning Rod
05-08-2001, 01:15 PM
This is a bit of a moral quandary for me, well sort of. On the original topic I am clear. I donít like ceilings on how much one can sue for. I donít like no-tolerance laws. As much as I find that common sense has become anything but common I prefer discretion be left to individuals and out of the hands of our congressmen. Let me make one additional thing clear I donít want some teacher spanking my kid, ever.

This is my area of personal confusion and it regards the use of corporal punishment by parents. I on occasion spank my kids. I really donít like to do so but, it is quick, immediate, and effective. I am currently evaluating if this is something I will continue to do. I am not sure that it morally correct nor am I sure that it sends the correct message. To physically punish any member of our society other than a child is a serious crime. There are certainly ways to discipline your child other that swatting them on the butt, but is making them sit in the corner any less harmful?


HC-
I can find nothing in your post that I can disagree with.

Pitt Gorilla
05-08-2001, 03:28 PM
Maybe it is ignorance, maybe it is understanding the letter of the law. Once again, I haven't really given an opinion on the topic. Being an education researcher, I'm naturally concerned with children in general, including yours. If calling people names is commonplace in your home, then there's nothing I can do to help; I just fail to see how it accomplishes anything. And, yes, I am qualified to set school policy.

HC_Chief
05-08-2001, 03:34 PM
Instead of debating whether or not teachers should be allowed to use corporal punishment, our congress should be debating whether to give teachers a 2x, 2.5x or 3x pay raise!

I swear to all that is holy, our government really pisses me off at times! (sad thing is, you won't find a better one anywhere...)

Pitt Gorilla
05-08-2001, 03:42 PM
Great point, HC. Sadly, though, it will never happen. I helped out a collegue who did a study on how to lure bright, young, effective teachers into our area. What we found out was that a lot of the bright, young, effective teachers were hanging them up after a year or so to persue careers in industry where they could make the ammounts that you suggested. By maintaining the current standards of pay, we are only increasing the amount of teachers that Clint fears. However, when the amount of money is calculated that it would take to fund a raise like that, it was found that a tax base could never afford it, and that is if they wanted to; In most cases, tax payers have a hard time accepting a 5% raise in pay.

BIG_DADDY
05-08-2001, 03:51 PM
hc,
I agree with you that physical punishment should be left up to the parents and they should just boot the student. I would also agree that our teachers need more money but not 2-3x the amount. They are still only working 9mo.

BIG DADDY

P-R-I-V-A-T-I-Z-E B-A-B-Y

HC_Chief
05-08-2001, 04:10 PM
Well, my mother was a Special Education teacher - has a Masters in Special Education(now a director for Kansas Neurological Institute), and my sister has a Bachelors in the same field.

I was incredibly lucky to have grown up in a family which holds education in the highest regard - I have several family members who studied abroad, have multiple degrees from MIT, Stanford, etc. If you're using a PC with an Intel chipset, you can thank -in part- one of my uncles - he helped develop the x86 architecture back in the early 70s (when Intel produced chips for ICBM guidence systems - the reason he left to become a professor at U of Wisc). Doctors, lawyers, scientists and professors abound in my family - all thanks to a solid foundation in hard work, dedication, and <i>education</i>.

If you can read this post, thank a teacher!

BIG_DADDY
05-08-2001, 04:19 PM
HC,

I was certainly was not referring to education as anything other than VERY important. Sounds like like you have a pretty great family.

BIG DADDY

Just clarifying.

HC_Chief
05-08-2001, 04:22 PM
I didn't intend that at all, BD! Please accept my sincerest apologies if I came off that way :)

Just trying to express how important I think a good education is. (BTW - I <i>do</i> have a great family - thanks for noticing! Oh, and FYI: the lawyers are all by marriage heh heh)

LapDog
05-08-2001, 09:13 PM
Originally posted by HC_Chief
the lawyers are all by marriage heh heh)

This still doesn't speak well for your family. If they're marrying lawyers, it sounds like they're a bunch of intellectuals without any common sense! :)