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oleman47
05-09-2001, 03:28 PM
I think that the core concept of the new conservaticism is racial profiling. The outgrowth of the successful policy called the "southern strategy" to appeal to racism and stereotypes has worked to an amazing degree. To see the crap on this BBS is sick. This is not a matter of "culturism" this is blatant, core value racism. What is sad is the almost univeral acceptance by those opposed and the proponents.

aturnis
05-09-2001, 03:44 PM
Well.......I like boobies, they are nice! :)

Lightning Rod
05-09-2001, 03:45 PM
Are there people on this BB that are racist? With the # of people on here, logically one would have to assume so. To assume someone is a racist because they are Conservative, Liberal, Agnostic, Black, White or Christian is simply ignorant. This is the same kind of stereotyping that you are complaining about. If you think a statement by someone is racist in nature, by all means ask that person for an explanation. The constant cries of bigotry, sexism, etc. have become so common that they have lost their impact. To many people crying wolf muddies the waters.

HC_Chief
05-09-2001, 04:23 PM
My goodness ole, aren't we the pot calling the kettle black? You just applied a stereotype to an entire group of people - ignorantly labeling them something you do not know them to be.

The irony... the hypocrisy...

oleman47
05-09-2001, 04:37 PM
I am profiling. I am stereotyping. I am pointing to what I consider the bedrock of the new conservaticism. It is based mostly on personal interaction with conservatives. My world has been almost all conservative. Stocks, Repubs, suburbs, good life. A white, German, what is there to doubt. What has turned me off is the stupid supply side economics which will kill us and the idea that consumers are the enemy. Then to add to this, is the concept of superiority so evident under facism. You guys may class me as liberal, but for me I embody all that is good, and what the framers were really talking about. I have been were many of you are, I simply out grew it, and also found it to be BS.

Gaz
05-09-2001, 04:37 PM
This is perhaps the most monstrous display of hypocrisy it has ever been my misfortune to read.

xoxo~
Gaz
Disgusted.

oleman47
05-09-2001, 05:09 PM
Gaz
When someone called me a socialist pinko, and I retorted he was a facist. You called me out for my remark but nothing about the attacker. You also said that you may not reply to my posts thereafter.

old_geezer
05-09-2001, 05:18 PM
Have you been hitting the sauce lately oleman? You seem particularly morose today. Don't let the joy of us conservatives get you down. Hope you're feeling better tomorrow. :D

LapDog
05-09-2001, 05:23 PM
oleman47-

My earlier agreement with the 'culturism' perspective was based on personal experience. I wasn't trying to say that racism doesn't exist. I just believe that true racism is much rarer than people think it is, especially blacks who feel they are being unfairly treated. They don't know what whites are thinking. They assume it's their skin color. In many cases it's not. Keep in mind, I'm talking about whites who don't remember the 60's, not people who are somewhere around 50 or older. Younger people just haven't been exposed to the racist attitudes to the same degree as the people who actually remember when there were 'black restaurants' and 'white restaurants'.

Here's where I got my perspective. This will sound like a cliche, but bear with me for a minute. I am white, my best friend is black. We've known each other for over twenty years. In high school, we hung out together. We went to the mall to check out chicks together. We grew up in the same neighborhood; a totally white, suburban area. There were only a handfull of blacks (3-6) in the entire high school population of 1500 people. Nobody ever gave my friend any **** for being black. Nobody ever gave me any **** for hanging out with him. The reason: he fit right in.

To this day, he has never felt that he was on the receiving end of a racist remark or racist behavior. He takes responsibility for himself and his family. He educated himself and has a good job. He speaks proper English and toes the line to get ahead, just like we white people do. For all intents and purposes, he is a product of white culture, but his skin is black. How is it that a black man in his mid-30's can go his entire life without a single racist incident?

It is his, and my, firm belief that the reason for this is that he doesn't have anything to do with the 'urban' culture and it's obvious to anyone who meets him that he is a decent, law-abiding citizen who contributes to society.

Now let me talk about my own personal perspective. I have nothing but respect and admiration for my black friend. But, I've made borderline comments about black people to him, forgetting that he himself is black. He never takes offense, usually because he agrees with my perspective. If I meet a black man in an office environment who speaks English and acts like the rest of us, I don't think twice about it. I'm aware that he's black when I meet him, but I soon forget the distinction (if there is one) because he comes to work, does his job, and goes home like the rest of us.

But, if I meet an unshaven black man with a gold tooth, saying "day is" instead of "there are" and "it's one over there" instead of "there's one over there", I react pretty negatively. He fits the stereotype, so I tend not to be fair minded toward him. The black men described above don't fit the stereotype, so I think of them like I do anybody else. In no case do I treat the one who fits the stereotype badly. I do however remain more gaurded in his presence and it will take him longer to gain my trust.

Those examples illustrate my point that, for me, some black people are no different than anybody else and other black people fit the stereotype. For the latter, I watch them and guard my exposure, just in case, until they prove to me that they are good people. In other words, it's not their skin color, it's the way they present themselves to me. That determines what I think about them.

Now before everybody goes attacking me, look at yourself. I'm honest about who I am. Are you?

Furthermore, if I see a white person on Jerry Springer emulating black culture, "talk to the hand", wagging their fingers and shaking their head, I react almost as negatively as I would if it were a black person. It's a slightly different feeling, but it's still very negative. This slight difference tells me that there's some racism in there, but it's minor. The primary reaction is to the cultural communication style.

Again, don't attack me for being honest with you and myself. Look in the mirror.

This last example is another illustration that it's the culture that I have a problem with. I don't trust that white person on Jerry Springer any more than I would a black person who acted the same way.

I grew up with a neighbor who'd have nothing to do with blacks. That neighbor is over 70 now. I think it's different for previous generations, but racism in people under 40 just isn't nearly as powerful or prominent as it was for older people.

I realize I'm not everyone. I'm sure there are many whites like me. I'm sure there are some others who are truly racist, because I met one. He was nothing but hate incarnate, and I won't have anything to do with him.

Finally, I think many blacks are jumping to conclusions about whites. I'd like to point out that even if a white man is giving a black man a hard time while using racial epithets, that doesn't mean that the white man is judging the black man on skin color. It's more likely that he's judging him based on dress and behavior. Again, it's JMO.

I have one final thought on the subject. It's probably inflammatory, but it's not meant to be. I have to say it because I believe in full disclosure. It is my opinion that, comparing blacks to whites, a higher percentage of the black population is racist. Many black people are too busy accusing white people of racial hatred. They seem unwilling to take a step back and look inside themselves. They seem unwilling to step outside themselves and look at the world, and 'racial' incidents, from an objective point of view. I believe if they did, more constructive dialog could occur, and many Americans could come together and see that there doesn't have to be so much hate between us.

I'm interested in your perspective on this, oleman47.

LapDog

Frazod
05-09-2001, 05:24 PM
[i]I embody all that is good[/B]

That's nice. Perhaps we should take up a collection and have you sainted.

But before we start passing the tray around, I would interject that your being a sniping, pompous, self-righteous gasbag does NOT mean you embody anything that is good.

I will give you credit, though - you actually managed to offend Gaz. That took some doing.

keg in kc
05-09-2001, 05:29 PM
By all means consider me prejudiced for saying it, but I would be more prone to label a dyed-in-the-wool conservative a racist than I would either a moderate like myself or even someone of a more liberal tilt.

I personally believe that racism is no less prevalent in society than it has been in the past, and furthermore believe that the "PC revolution" has resulted in a sort of hidden racism where other labels are applied to people while the feelings within have not changed. When I see someone talking about "those inner city people" and "lazy-*** no good people on welfare with 80 kids" I believe that to be loosely-veiled racism in a time where people are simply too PC to say what they really mean, at least around strangers. Maybe people are trying to convince themselves and others that they're something that they really are not. Maybe things are said behind closed doors that I don't know about. And maybe I'm completely wrong. In the end, I really don't know the answer, and I know some people will take offense to my thinking on the matter.

Racism is a farce anyway. The real barriers in this country are not between black and white. It's all about the greenbacks baby.

oleman47
05-09-2001, 05:36 PM
Lapdog!
What a marvelous reply. We all are human, and this was a absolutely great example. By instinct we greet the new or unkown by wariness and forboding from milleniums of conditioning. But this is not what I am talking about.
The conscious, blatant use of the above for political gain and power. It is the wink and nod factor, not the honest give and take of society.

oleman47
05-09-2001, 05:41 PM
Keg
Exactly, underneath the rhteroic is the wink and nod, you know what I really mean. I hope this is what you said.
What I see is double entendre. Who me a racist? I am just against lazy bums. Can I help it if they are all black. They sure aren't like me.

ExtremeChief
05-09-2001, 05:43 PM
Oleman,

I'm just curious...I've read your posts over the last few weeks, responded to some of them, and I just can't figure something out.

Why do you feel the need to label everyone??? You use the word "conservative" like some of us use the word "a$$hole". You have no problem calling anyone who disagrees with you a conservative, but seem angered when you are called liberal.

What exactly are you searching for??? I don't see the need to have a label for everyone, and, as a matter of fact, think it's complete BS to use labels anyway.

To call all conservatives racist is utterly intolerable and frankly, offensive. And I don't even consider myself a conservative. As a matter of fact, I tend to lean to the left.

From now on I will remember to skip your posts since all you seem to want to do is start a rediculous argument. That is your right.




I'm not prejudice, I hate everyone the same...

keg in kc
05-09-2001, 05:53 PM
Oleman, that's similar to what I'm saying, but there's more to it. I am not saying that all conservatives are racist, but I sincerely believe that a number of right-leaning folks are.

Lapdog, speaking only for myself, I would classify you as being racist. I understand what you are saying, or trying to say, but there is a definite anti-black prejudice underlying everything you said, in my opinion. Which is your right, actually, so long as no actions you take infringe upon the rights of other people. In other words, as far as I'm concerned you can believe what you want, so long as you don't violate the law or the constituation. It's not my place to tell you what to believe or to try to change the course of your own personal history which has developed your persona and your beliefs. Kind of hard to explain what I'm trying to say - in other words you have a right to think like a racist, because there is no government mandate on personal beliefs...

I may have a unique slant on all of this because I'm a 27 year old white male from rural (and very racist) West Virginia who is soon to be married to a 25 year old black woman from near Washington DC. I have a great deal of experience with both "white culture" and "black culture" and have an unusual perspective on a lot of things from this personal experience. I actually do agree with some of what you said, especially conserning so-called 'ebonics', but there are a lot of good black people who wouldn't fit your profile as such. And the same can be said for white people. I tend to be wary around obvious white 'rednecks' (since I'm generally with my black future wife...), and, frankly, I just despise anyone driving a minivan, but that's a story for another day.

There is a lot to be discussed here. Racism in white culture. Racism in black culture. Why racism exists. And so forth. I don't really think I can get into everything, and I think that I haven't really explained my own feelings on the matter very well because of that fact...

oleman47
05-09-2001, 05:54 PM
Extreme Chief
Sorry, I just got fed up with the BS. I am a conservative. I am not a conservative as defined by this BSS. Yes, I am fed up with the subliminal racism and pure economic crap. So I spoke out. You have every right to dislike me and not to even respond. So what.

You youngsters got to realize, there is not much that is going to hurt me that I already don't know about. ,You to will face it.

Raiderhader
05-09-2001, 07:06 PM
Red necks, bigots, racists, religious zealots, homophobes, sexists, ect, ect.

Any of that sound familiar? It is what liberals have to say about Conservatives. This from the party of tolerance? HUH! Every time a lib starts preaching to me about tolerance, or calls me a racist, I want nothing more than to slap their hypocritical faces inside out.


Let's talk about real racism now, liberalism. Liberalism tells the black man/woman that he/she can't get along in this world with out the government helping them. Why can't they? Because they have a different color of skin? That is racial profiling isn't? And that is racist. Whereas a Conservative says that you are a human despite your skin color, and are just as capable as I am of making a happy and prosperus life for yourself. And you know, this attitude of the left doesn't just apply to minorities, how about when the government takes money from your paycheck (with out your consent might I add) to start a retirement fund for you because you are too stupid to know how to save for yourself. That can be applied to all taxes actually, "we here in the government know better than you how to spend your money, so we are going to take as much of it as we can and leave you with as little as possible". So liberalism is bigoted towards mankind period. It takes the stance that we, as people and not government officials i.e. gods, are to stupid to run our own lives. Which of the two major idealogues is the more racist and bigoted? I would have to say liberalism. But this is coming from some "hate filled" Conservative, so I guess it just shows my own hypocrisy, right?

LapDog
05-09-2001, 07:08 PM
keg-

Appreciate your honesty. I knew some would think me racist on the basis of my post. As I said, I think I have a stereotype. I'm not happy about it, but it's there. I just think we all have them. Maybe it's 'jock', 'geek', or 'freak'. A person's stereotype doesn't have to be black/white, but I believe it's part of human nature to have stereotypes. Mental modeling, and placing new experiences into those models, is how the human brain works. You can't avoid it. And, like oleman said, we all fear the unknown. That contributes to the stereotype to give it the negative internal response.

It sounds like one of your stereotypes is 'redneck'. Frankly, I don't get along with stereotypical rednecks too well either. They have a tendency to think I'm a wussy-boy because I have an intellectual bent, drink microbrews, and would rather bring people together than fight. You being wary of rednecks (with probable cause) is the same behavior as me being wary of the stereotypical black that I was describing in my last post. It really is essentially the same thing. The difference is, if I'm a white who's wary of rednecks, I'm not a racist. If I'm a white who's wary of blacks, I'm a racist, and some would go so far as to call me a hate-mongerer, which is obviously entirely off-base.

The point to all of that was, if your negative stereotype crosses racial boundaries, the current political atmosphere seems to say' "You are a hate-filled, racist scumbag", but only if you are white. At the same time, if you are white and your negative stereotype is 'redneck', which still includes a racial component, it's somehow ok and isn't based on race or hate. These two stereotypes are really only differentiated by the fact that one has a long controversial history in our country and the other doesn't. The one also has a convenient label that is easily used imply hate and agression. I should also point out that one can be, and is frequently, used for political gain. I'm sure there are many reading who think that you are a great guy for looking beyond race who also think I am a racist loser, when in fact there isn't a whole lot of difference in your perspective and mine.

In my mind, the key is for everyone to recognize their own stereotypes. I recognize mine. If you see your stereotypes, you can use that knowledge to improve who you are, how you behave, and how you think. You can also monitor your stereotypes to make sure they don't evolve into hate. When you do something borderline, you can examine your motives to see if you are being fair, and then change your behavior if appropriate. I just really despise the racist term because it implies hate. Most of today's racists don't hate, they just fear. The term also separates stereotypes into acceptable and unacceptable categories. To me, all stereotypes are equally acceptable/unacceptable.

I agree with your comments on 'thinking' versus 'acting', when it comes to the legal arena. I was trying to convey that in my last post as well. However, morally, speaking, I think we don't have any business using stereotypes to justify our behavior. Stereotypes are dangerous in that they can lead to hate. We need to seek out our flaws and destroy them. If we can't destroy them, we need to be aware of them, so they don't impact our behavior. We also need to recognize that everyone's human. We shouln't hate somebody who hates. We should find a way to get them to stop hating. It's better for everyone that way.

One point of clarification: In my previous post, I was trying to communicate that even though I have stereotypes, I don't place people into a category beyond hope of redemption. Everyone is different and I can be friends with anyone who's going to respect me. Unfortunately, for now, it will be harder for some than others to gain my trust. But as you say, I've met several people who seemed to fit the 'ebonics' stereotype, but when I got to know them I recognized that, like me, they were just good people trying to get through life.

To those who would attack such an easy target, again I say look inside yourself. Why don't you confess your fatal flaws and see how you fare? (Assuming you even know what they are.)

LapDog

Cannibal
05-09-2001, 07:11 PM
Originally posted by LapDog

[B]To this day, he has never felt that he was on the receiving end of a racist remark or racist behavior. He takes responsibility for himself and his family. He educated himself and has a good job. He speaks proper English and toes the line to get ahead, just like we white people do. For all intents and purposes, he is a product of white culture, but his skin is black. How is it that a black man in his mid-30's can go his entire life without a single racist incident?

This paragraph by itself is racist and offensive. Just because the guy was brought up in a white culture, he speaks "proper" english and has taken responsibility for himself. But if he was brought up in a black culture, he would be ignorant, stupid and totally disregard his resposibilities. Completely false.

Also, I don't believe for one second that he's never experienced racism. That is a flat out lie, or else you speak out of ignorance. White people make up 80% of the population in this country. Blacks make up about 12%. Every black person in this country has experienced racism before at some point in time, I guarantee that.

LapDog
05-09-2001, 07:16 PM
Originally posted by Cannibal
Also, the I don't believe for one second that he's never experienced racism. That is a flat out lie, or else you speak out of ignorance. White people make up 80% of the population in this country. Blacks make up about 12%. Every black person in this country has experienced racism before at some point in time, I guarantee that.



This paragraph by itself is racist and offensive. Just because somebody is white, doesn't mean they are a racist.

oleman47
05-09-2001, 07:17 PM
Is just saying I am not a racist but..... give me a break.

Cannibal
05-09-2001, 07:19 PM
I didn't say, or insinuate that "all" whites are racists. You however, insinuated that just because your "friend" was brought up in a white culture he is educated and "speaks proper english". But if he had been brought up in a black culture, he'd be unintelligent and inarticulate.

That is offensive and completely false.

Mark M
05-09-2001, 07:36 PM
Okay, I've read this entire thread and my head hurts.

FWIW, here's what I see:

oleman--
As a past stoner, let me write that sometimes its better to just say no.

LapDog--
You sound like my father in law: he always says that there are black people, and there are n------. I'm sorry, but if you say that then they are all n------ (sorry, but I won't even type that word. I find it perhaps the most incredibly powerful word of hate in the history of language.). I do agree that everyone has some sort of "racism" although "calssisim" or "educationalsim" may be better terms. So I do see your point ... somewhat. The reason your Af.-Am. friend (sorry for the PCism ... they're from Africa 1st and America second, so ... ) never got any grief is because he acted like a white person. To me, that's passive-agressive racism.

People are people folks. Whether the people you hate are black or white, republican or democrat, rich or poor, pray in a church or a synagogue, it's all bad juju. But we all hold some kind of hatred toward some classification of people.

Me? ... I hate Raider's fans (although hawaiiboy is pretty cool. Sometimes he even acts like a Chiefs' fan.)

MM
~~Hates to hit and run, but has dinner on the table. Will check in the a.m.

keg in kc
05-09-2001, 07:38 PM
Lapdog, you misunderstand.

First of all, talking about "rednecks", well, I'm a redneck by stereotype. Long hair. Fat. Bearded. Southern drawl (when I want one...). I've got it all. I grew up amidst rednecks and I have lived much of my life amongst rednecks. I'm perfectly comfortable around the culture, for the most part, and was not speaking of them in a negative context, and I certainly don't hate them.

My point there was exactly what you seem to be trying to say: I don't judge people based soley on race. If someone looks unscrupulous, black or white, I'm wary. Someone flying a confederate flag on his truck is someone I'm wary of, the same as I'm wary of someone walking down the street in front of my house wearing gang markings. It's not a racial thing...

However, every point you made in your original post clearly stated you have the very normal, very human fear of people who are different from you, from outside your sphere of understanding. You stated repeatedly how the environment you grew up in is superior to the black inner-city culture. You explained how you were friends with a black man - a black man who doesn't fit the stereotype and who fits into your image of how the world should be. All of that shouts "racism" and I'm not making a judgement on it, it's simply human nature. You're not "wrong" for thinking that way, because it's a product of your life experiences, like religion or political philosophy.

And your point about ebonics is generally correct in my experience. It's generally something that is switched on and off depending upon the circumstances, something I just dont' grasp yet (and neither does my fiance, who is guilty of it from time to time).

Raderhader, you make some valid points, albeit somewhat violently. I think welfare is racist, I think job quotas are racist, I think giving anyone a 'leg up' due to their ethnicty is racist, so perhaps I was off-base on my earlier conservative comment. Racism is not just on the right, it's everywhere.

However, I'll say it again, racism is just a smokescreen. Classism is the real story. Wealth and greed is everything in America (not that I'm against wealth mind you, I want mine too...). Color doesn't really matter, it's whether you're a "have" or a "have not".

Raiderhader
05-09-2001, 07:43 PM
Raderhader, you make some valid points, albeit somewhat violently.


Kyle,
could you please explain that? I don't remember being violent, except the part where I said that I wanted to slap some hypocritical faces inside out. Is that what you are talking about, or something else?

keg in kc
05-09-2001, 08:17 PM
Maybe "aggressive" is a more appropriate word than "violent," hader. It wasn't meant as a value judgement on my part; you were responding to the anti-conservative gauntlet that had been thrown down, so your vehemence in defending yourself or your "side," if you will (for lack of a better word), is understandable.

Racism, prejudice, whatever you want to label it is like everything else, it isn't simple to understand and it supercedes political affiliation.

Raiderhader
05-09-2001, 08:19 PM
Thanks for the clarification. I didn't think you were being judgemental, I just wanted to know what you saw that constituted violent.

LapDog
05-09-2001, 08:20 PM
oleman47-

I couldn't make any sense out of that last post of yours. Been taking some nips from that whiskey again? :)


Cannibal -
Well... you didn't insinuate that "all whites are racists" just like I didn't insinuate that "all blacks are ignorant, stupid and totally disregard their resposibilities". If I'm a racist for what I said, you are a racist for what you said. If you aren't a racist for what you said, then neither am I. That's pretty obvious to the objective eye.

On the education thing, I see now where the implication is. That was unintended. I was really just trying to say that he took responsibility for his life so he went to college so he could get a good job.

Also, at no point did I state or imply anything about intelligence or the lack thereof. I also don't see anything in my post that implies ignorance.

The lack of responsibility implication was intentional. That's part of my stereotype about black culture. If you read the rest of the post, my whole point was that most racism isn't about skin color, it's about cultural attitudes and behavior. In fact, even if I had implied all of the other things you accused me of, it still would have been targeted toward black culture, not black people.

As far as proper English goes, Ebonics is not proper English. I do strongly associate Ebonics with black culture. (I'm not saying 'all blacks speak Ebonics', so don't even go there.) I'm not saying there's anything wrong with Ebonics if you want to call it a different language. However, as English, it is simply grammatically incorrect. If you can't see that it is grammatically incorrect, you are undereducated.

Here's another quote from my original post. "[Many blacks] seem unwilling to step outside themselves and look at the world, and 'racial' incidents, from an objective point of view."

Think about it
LapDog

oleman47
05-09-2001, 08:32 PM
Lapdog
I think I have been temporarily banished from Planet heaven. It began with trying to correct the post you found whiskey laden, and an follow up to MM.

MM
I wrote a great story about my disco and race relations which failed to post.

What I fail to understand when I get back on is how much has been posted when I cannot post.

LapDog
05-09-2001, 08:34 PM
MM -
I agree about that word. It and the 'c' word for women are the two most offensive to me personally.

keg-
I didn't misunderstand. I thought you were a redneck, too. It's come out in some of your other posts. (no offense intended Kyle, I have no problem with you) On the superiority thing, I certainly prefer my culture, and I probably do think of it as superior. However, again, it isn't a judgement on black people. It's a judgement on black culture and it's something that I have to work on. I tend to be unaware of that attitude so I'll have to watch for it in the future. Finally, I've known people who could switch Ebonics off and on, but didn't think it was common. Perhaps I'm wrong on that point. Anyway, I really appreciate your reasonable attitude. I'll probably be a better person for it.

raiderhader-
I agreed with a lot of what you said, but was afraid to say it because you did come across pretty strongly. Didn't want to give others even more opportunity to attack me.

oleman47-
I was banished from the board for some time too. It can be frustrating. I compose in Notepad now, so I don't lose my work.


Everyone-
Again... my whole point was that everyone screams 'racism' but it is 'culturalism'. Or maybe keg is correct and it's really 'classism'. Is it that hard to understand or are people just too brainwashed to think of it in any terms other than racism. Everybody is debating whether I am a racist or not, but nobody is talking about my original point. This is exactly why the racist label is bad. It diverts the discussion from constructive avenues. We need to stop labeling people and start listening to their perspectives.

Doesn't anybody (besides keg) have their eyes open?
LapDog

ExtremeChief
05-09-2001, 08:35 PM
As much as I would like to continue to let you think it's just you...it's not. Raderhader and myself have also been having problems...



how much for a T1???

Joe Seahawk
05-09-2001, 08:36 PM
It's not just you oleman...

The planet is not working normally tonight...


There is no vast right wing conspiricy to keep oleman's liberal views off the planet...

So you can relax now....:)

ExtremeChief
05-09-2001, 08:39 PM
Originally posted by LapDog We need to stop labeling people and start listening to their perspectives.




thank you, thank you, thank you....




couldn't have said it better himself...

sun
05-09-2001, 09:37 PM
anytime you say anything with these blanks filled in: all _______ are ________, it is a racist statement.......so, oleman when you say all conservatives are rasists, you sir are also a racist.........btw......my daddy can beat up your daddy

oleman47
05-09-2001, 10:02 PM
All women are beautiful.

sun
05-09-2001, 10:06 PM
thats just plain wrong........lol

oleman47
05-09-2001, 10:07 PM
Sun
I didn't just say conservatives, I said new conservatives which goes to other threads and posts. I think the southern strategy of the Repubs is basically racial profiling which in turn I believe is racist. My dad was a story teller, not a fighter. Your dad would have loved him.

LapDog
05-09-2001, 10:27 PM
oleman-

Oh, well that's a different thing, then.

Not ALL conservatives, just all of the Republicans in the south.
;)

LapDog

sun
05-09-2001, 10:33 PM
my opinion is explained in my sensitive thread.......i dont care what kind of conservatives you think they are, i just dont want to have to hear anyone's drivel about it

Phobia
05-09-2001, 10:51 PM
I composed a lengthy response as the first post on this topic and I see that the bits never made it through cyberland....

Oh well.

I have a LOT of thoughts on this topic and am an admitted reformed racist. I used to use the N word in my younger days and I'm not proud of it. Suffice it to say, I was ignorant and misguided and thrown into a bad situation.

I grew up in a small Iowa town of 8000 people. Essentially, there was one black family and I had the honor of being in the same class as one of their children. He was raised in a white culture but embraced the urban stereotypes. He had a car that you can imagine many urban black kids had in the mid-80's. Until I joined the Marine Corps, that was basically my only experience with black folks. When I got to my duty station, I was placed in a barracks with Service Company people on one side (legal assistants, computer people, and administrative). On the other side was a Communications Company. These were the people that pulled the cables for phones & other things on base and when deployed, in the field. Not nearly the "glamorous" desk jobs the Service Company people had. For some reason, these Cable Dogs (as they called themselves) were 80% black. Many were your urban blacks and as you can imagine, I was immediately turned off.

To make a long story not quite as long as it could be, I struggled with my racism until I had children of my own and decided that it wasn't a very good example for them so I made an effort to get past it and educate myself. I no longer consider myself a racist but have been labeled one many times for my views - especially on the KC.com BB. I don't care what anyone else thinks of me. I know my heart and I'm fine with my attitude towards people that are different than me. FWIW, I am not quite as at ease with black folks as I'd like to be but I experience the same problem with other cultures such as goth kids, rednecks, hispanics, asian, filthy rich whites, dirt poor whites, lawyers, etc. Everyone has a certain level of discomfort with people that aren't the same as they are. Once one is able to accept that without labeling, one will feel more in tune with reality.

FWIW, I most identified with LapDog's comments on this topic. I look forward to clarifying anything that may be misconstrued from my post....

Good day!

Rausch
05-10-2001, 12:38 AM
I think a lot of our problems with PC and this new sensitivity is that people like to ignore their own unfavorable weaknesses.

I'm almost 100% german ancestry. And am I stubborn, you bet. Bad. It's a terrible weakness of mine. Do I have a bad habbit of holding grudges? Yep. Unfortunately, guilty. Do I eat like a horse and drink like a fish? Guilty.

THe only sterotype I AM NOT as far as being german, is that of the Nazi germany evil. Some in my extended family are racist. BAD. I am not. Thankfully, I have convinced my grandparents against it. They no longer are.

But the ugly truth is, 7 of 10 times sterotypes ARE true. THAT'S WHY ITS A STEROTYPE, MOST PEOPLE OF ONE religon/gender/nationality behave or act in certian ways. I am your sterotypical german, minus the racism and bigotry...

The force behind the pc garbage is that MANY people try to OVERCOME those weaknesses, those weaknesses that are either genetic or taught shortly after birth. Then after the strugle to improve yourself, someone falsely labels you a (fill in the black.) Is it enough to make you screaming mad? Yeah, it is..

But is it true? Yeah, a lot of the time, for a lot of people, it is....


I can't speak for anything other than midwestern germans, and those I've talked with, but I know that most germans in my area are 75% the stereotypical German. Stubborn, easily angered, and determined. THose aren't necessarily good qualities all the time, and putting a mirror in front of some people makes them uneasy. Which is a GOOD thing...

LapDog
05-10-2001, 12:43 AM
Brad,

ditto! That echos many of my points. I didn't think of the "that's why their stereotypes" comment, although my friend and I have discussed it in the past.

Midwestern German here too, but none in my family are blatant racists. Maybe your family immigrated more recently than mine or something. Stubborn, yep. Not so easy to anger any more, probably due to age, but man when I'm pissed, watch out!

LD

keg in kc
05-10-2001, 12:45 AM
Lots of us Germans here (the "G" in "Kyle G." is for "Geiger").

Good to know I'm not the only heavy-drinking fatass bastard on the board.

Of course I'm also Cherokee, Dutch, British, French and some other things, too.

Rausch
05-10-2001, 12:51 AM
My great grandparents left Germany before WW I, due to their disagreement with (sound familar?) the country's reasoning for the war.

Me and my grandparents had a long struggle with racism.Why? My family was poor, humble, and Catholic. They had little, but they had morals. What they failed to realize was that due to where we lived, not only the Black people, but ALL the people around us were worhtless trash. NOn-caring, stealing, scum of society.

Somehow, when its YOUR color you seem to see them in a kinder light. Luckily, I brought a black friend of mine to their house one Easter. He hated BBQ, he was SUPER intelligent, and not in the least athletic. Everything the exact OPPOSITE of the black sterotype. And they got to the point they said: "Those damned n....! Well, of course, except for CHarles.."

THen they finally got to realize, if Charles wasn't the sterotype, might be that MANY people aren't what you think they are. Thank God they lost a terrible character flaw, but it took them 70 years to do so...

Have hope, the biggots of today may not be tommorow. Forgiveness is a virtue. And people learn more from an outstreatched hand, than a closed fist.

Again, most people don't see their own ugly, that's why they fight the sterotype. Then again, some sterotypes are just lies and wishfull thinking of biggots.

Rausch
05-10-2001, 12:55 AM
LMAO!!! A German writer, who drinks, and eats like a horse? Man, we have NO HOPE!


I'D LOVE to be a published novellist/poet one day. Of course, no one will like ANY of my work, then I'll die poor and alone. Then, like clockwork, 200 years later I'm a genious! They'll teach my writings in Lit class!

Bastiches!!!! LOL

LapDog
05-10-2001, 12:56 AM
Brad,
Funny thing.

The older neighbor that I mentioned in a post was pretty racist, but the first time she saw my black friend, her comment after the fact was, "Well, he's not that black". She now treats him as she would any of my other friends. It's funny how a good example from reality can change people's attitudes.

My great-grandparents were also immigrants, but I'm older and generations in my family tend to be 30 yrs. apart. Both sides of my family came over in the 1880's or so.

LD

keg in kc
05-10-2001, 01:02 AM
Ain't that the truth Brad.

I need to publish a novel so I can afford to keep eating barbecue and drinking every alcoholic beverage known to man.

The saddest thing is, I've written exactly one poem. That's it. The sum total of months of work (err, months of thinking about work...) And now it's published. So I'd guess I can call myself 100%, but 1 for 1 isn't much to brag about, hehe.

My question is this: Do I drink because I'm German or am I German because I drink.

Rausch
05-10-2001, 01:04 AM
It's good to hear people openly admit being German when all you see is evil on "the Hitler Channel" (History channel) and all the movies that are out, german Nazis are the bad guys. It makes other peoples leary of people with German ancestry.


We may all be stubborn as an ox and hold a grudge, but most AREN'T biggots and racists..

Hell, my grandfather had to fight against his third cousins in WWII...His own uncle was in one battle AGAINST the US, against his will...


It's hard sometimes, but that's what makes America what it is. It's the constant infusion of LEGAL immigrants who strive to create a better life that make this country so great. The dream of a better tommorow, not the ugly of today.

LapDog
05-10-2001, 01:06 AM
brad,

My uncle tells me that we had family on both sides of the war too. Even in Germany, some memebers of the family were against the Nazis, but others weren't. It's a pretty humbling thing to know.

LD

Rausch
05-10-2001, 01:07 AM
DOn't feel bad, I've written over 2,000 pages, poetry alone, and have one published. In a rag by "www.poetry.com". Terrible....


I have 9 short stories, one novella, and countless poems. You are doing better than me!

THe major thing is, even if it seems like garbage, keep writing. You may think it crap, but keep the engine running. You'd be surprised where the inspiration and the ideas come from! :-)#



Too poor to drink, too stupid to quit!

keg in kc
05-10-2001, 01:09 AM
I'm 19th Century German I believe, long gone before Hitler was even born. Most of note was the fact that I can say that I had relatives on both sides of the Revolution and (I believe, not certain on this though) both sides of the Civil War. I had a slave owner ancestor and an ancestor who was an indentured servant (basically a white slave...). I had an ancestor who fought for France in the French and Indian war and I have a Cherokee ancestor.

And I wonder why my life is chaotic sometimes...

keg in kc
05-10-2001, 01:15 AM
Yep, Brad, I remember your poetry.com publication...

I found out a few weeks ago that they're publishing what amounts to my only work in their latest anthology of every poem written ever. Something about being a finalist in some competition or the other, but I figure everyone gets that, too, so no real excitement over that...

At least you got published in a rag. My poem is in a coffee table book and is one of the 3 bajillion poems they currently have on line.

If you have a free ten seconds sometimes, go to poetry.com and do a search on my name. Read my "legacy" for yourself.

Just don't blink, or like my home town, you might miss it...

Rausch
05-10-2001, 01:21 AM
You REMEMBER it? Wow, it sucked. I sent in 40 (yeah, i was desperate) and guess what got published? MY LEAST favorite one...I swear, not a single literary scholar in their number!


That's garbage, but I'll give ya my email and if you'd like, we could trade works, and honest(sometimes TOO honest) opinions of each others work!

:-)#

keg in kc
05-10-2001, 01:25 AM
I never saw your poem, actually, I just remember you talking about it on the Star board. I don't think you even said what it was published in, as a matter of fact, you just mentioned it was related to poetry.com in some way or another.

I'm not particularly proud of my work either. I just decided one night I was going to write a poem and submit it, and, well, I did.

And dammit! I can't take it back now...

Look at it this way, we should be happy to be in (non self-published) print. ;)

Rausch
05-10-2001, 01:39 AM
Actually, i DO plan to self-publish. Cost is $1,200 for 650 coppies, hardback.

It is a small price to pay for my PURE and UNTAINTED work in true print. It will be mine, as I dreamed it, and NO ONE will ever be able to take that away. Plus, all works published by company x get a FREE copywright. This is also good...


I want to be published. YOu buying it is a plus, but not essential to the equation! :-)#

A writer dreams of being a appreciated, but dreams MORE of seeing a book, with his name, on his mantle...




THat dream WILL be realized. By Random House, or by generic company x....

LapDog
05-10-2001, 01:42 AM
Brad,

I'm assuming you mean a REGISTERED copyright. Anybody can copyright their work for free. All they have to do is put a label on it saying "(c)Copyright 2001 MyWork.com". The (c) has to be the official circled c, not two parens and a c.

LD

keg in kc
05-10-2001, 01:44 AM
Registering a copyright can be a pain in the ***. I dealt with that in my days as a composer of music. Classes in copyright law that I slept through would probably be of some benefit to this discussion. ;)

Rausch
05-10-2001, 01:51 AM
alright ya' bum! You're ruining my perfect world!

lol

:-)#

LapDog
05-10-2001, 01:56 AM
BC,

My pleasure! I wasn't very clear before. There are two types of copyright. One is registered so somebody somewhere has a record that the material is yours. That one costs money. They may have done that for you. I think it's easier to prove the work is yours in this case.

The other kind is the kind I described. It gives you legal rights, but you might have a harder time proving that the work is yours.

LD

Misplaced_Chiefs_Fan
05-10-2001, 07:08 AM
Brad/Lap Dog/KEG

Being a self-publisher of comic books, I can sympathize with what you're going through. I'm working on my latest project, which will be a 48 page one-shot (probably a trade paperback), which I'm using as publisher bait. I'd rather not get back into self-publishing full time right now, but I don't mind doing the occasional one-shot just to keep my hand in.

The good part about self-publishing is control... you decide what the cover art will look like, the content, who prints it, etc.

The bad part is, when I'm on the phone with retailers, distributors, printers, Fed-Ex, etc., I'm not writing, which is what I prefer to be doing.

So, there's a trade off, as always. If you want control, then you get all the headaches that come with it. Some people thrive on it, some get overwhelmed, the majority are like me, we <b>can</b> do it, we just would <b>rather</b> not.

_________________________
Writing Credits: (as if anyone cares ;))

Chronicles of the Sea Dragon -- Nightwolf Graphics (self-published comic coming in January)
Troubleshooters Incorporated -- Nightwolf Graphics (self-published comic)
"Assault on Avenger's Mansion" in the Ultimate Hulk Antology -- Byron Preiss/Marvel Comics (short story)

Mark M
05-10-2001, 10:43 AM
I, too, am an aspiring writer, although I stay away from trying poetry. I had 6 semesters in college and never wrote a single good poem. I mean not a one ... they all sucked. I'm just too long winded.

As a married guy with a house that needs some work, I find it difficult to find the time to write. How do you guys do it? I've got some absolutely great ideas, but have never really started any of them.

Also, I would love to check out some of your guys' work.

MM
~~Has won the Nobel prize in literature about a dozen times in his mind.

Misplaced_Chiefs_Fan
05-10-2001, 11:10 AM
Mark,

Working on comics, I tend to write in stages. What I do first is page breakdowns, sort of like a movie script, without the words. I tell the artist what should (and I repeat should...darn artistic temperments) appear on each page, empahsising specific panels (scenes) and items that I will be refering to. I'll also provide character descriptions for specific characters and pertenant background information.

Once I get the pages back, then I have to go back through and add in the dialogue, matching up <b>MY</b> idea for the story with the artists. If you have a good team, it's pretty easy. If you've got a bad team, it can be a <b>MAJOR</b> chore. Luckily, on my newest project, Bill Bryan and I have hit it off and we share the same basic vision with the story.

I do most of my writing at night, being a night owl. When I was in the service, I used to do a lot of my writing when I was on 24 hours duty. The hours between midnight and five a.m. are usually pretty slack, so besides having to do my rounds and keeping my driver awake, I could get some quality writing in.

When I'm not actually writing, I'm doing research. Since my current project is a swashbuckling fantasy, I'm doing copious amounts of research on piracy, privateering, types of ships used, political structures both in the Carribbean and in Europe (although it's my own world I'm writing about, I think modifying reality is easier than creating something completely new.) Plus, with my degree in Medieval History, I tend to want to make it as realistic as possible. I think fantasy works better when it's more like our history. If you make it too "fantastic", it's much more difficult for the reader to relate, and therefore accept. I think that's what made the "Twilight Zone" or "Night Gallery" so effective. They were fantasies, but they were close enough to reality to draw you in for that "zinger" at the end.

With running my own publishing company, it helps by getting the wife involved. She's not 100% certain she approves of this "venture" of mine, but she's willing to let me chase my butterflies, as long as I don't get too carried away.

keg in kc
05-10-2001, 12:51 PM
As a married guy with a house that needs some work, I find it difficult to find the time to write. How do you guys do it? I've got some absolutely great ideas, but have never really started any of them.

Mark, as a soon-to-be-married guy with a house that needs a lot of work, I understand your difficulties...

My problem is that I'm not doing it, and I really need to buckle-down and get my arse in gear. I am in the position to write as much as I want, yet I am not, and that's just not the way it needs to be.

As for great ideas, I've not had one yet, so I must be overdue. ;)

Mark M
05-10-2001, 01:16 PM
keg--
If I were you, I'd be writing like a mad man.


My problem is what Mi refers to ... those wee hours of the night is when I do my best writing also (between 11pm and 4 am ... must be a leftover from college). I just find it hard to get up at 4:30 am, drive an hour to work, work for 9-10 hours a day, drive an hour (or more) home and then stay up writing. Also, the Mrs. and I only spend about 4 hours a day together (not counting sleeping). That may be too much time 20 years from now, but for right now it is not nearly enough (our 1st anniversary is in 17 days). She supports me wholeheartedly and loves my work, but it's just so darn difficult.

I guess I need to make time to write. Either that or get a government grant/win the lottery ...

MM
~~So many ideas ... so little time.

Misplaced_Chiefs_Fan
05-10-2001, 01:31 PM
Mark,

One thing I've found handy is I bought a micro-recorder and I take it with me on trips. Sometimes I get the best ideas for stories while I'm driving, especially any distance. I have found that keeping the recorder handy is much more reliable than my memory.

Since you're driving an hour or more each way, there's two hours where you could at least free associate ideas, plots, etc. (along with swearing at drivers and other entertaining rush hour activities). If you get in the habit of doing that, and then maybe taking some time on Saturday or Sunday to transcribe things, you might be able to "rough out" your story. Once you get it started, then it's just a matter of "polish, polish, polish". That, and getting someone you really trust to edit it for you.

<b>NEVER</b> rely on yourself for the final edits! You know the story <b>too</b> well. Always have someone who doesn't know the story read it for gaps. I've found that immensely helpful, plus another opinion is never a bad thing to solicit.

keg in kc
05-10-2001, 01:38 PM
Driving is great for me, too, but a lot of time I enjoy listening to audio books in the car.

Reading is important too. Read a lot if you can.

Mark, I have the same problem you do, I'm most comfortable working in the wee hours of the night, but I'm making a concerted effort to have the same sleeping schedule as my fiance (we just celebrated our 4th anniversary living together, not married until October 6, though).

I really have no excuse though. Nothing is holding me back but me, and I don't know why. Probably that little voice in my head telling me "you can't write, loser" or the other one reminding me how much I hate failure.

Raiderhader
05-10-2001, 04:15 PM
raiderhader-
I agreed with a lot of what you said, but was afraid to say it because you did come across pretty strongly. Didn't want to give others even more opportunity to attack me.


LapDog,
sorry I wasn't able to respond last night. The Planet kept kicking me off. Surely it wasn't that bad was it? I mean that is reasonably mild for me. I left out the expletives I normally use. I didn't tell any one to kiss my @$$. And I didn't throw around the word hypocrite as much as I usually do. Between you and Kyle I fell like a mugger or something.


You shouldn't be afraid to voice your opinion because of what people will think/say about you. Fear is the number one tool of the left, don't let them silence you.

keg in kc
05-10-2001, 04:23 PM
Well, hader, like my mama always says, "it's easier to get someone to swallow something sweet than something sour".

(actually, my mother never said anything like that, I just thought it sounded like something someone's mom would say)

Maybe it's just me, but I tend to give more weight to the people who are calm, cool, collected and level-headed, and sometimes firey words just don't impress me the same way (although I too, of course, get pretty hot, too, sometimes...). Then again, like I said then, you probably felt like the cornered animal trying to fight his way out, so your ferver was understandable. I don't disagree with what you said, I just probably would have said it a little differently. When tempers start to flare, I begin to see people on both sides of the line as extremist fanatics, because that's what they sound like to me, the dude in the middle...

But then, you're you and I'm me, and we do things differently.

Otter
05-10-2001, 04:50 PM
To all prospering writers:

I will most likely never be a writer outside of high-level language code, user-manuals and trouble shooting scripts. I'm so left brained it hurts sometimes.

But when I was in college and did have to write creative papers I always found I did best if I removed myself from my home, apartment, dorm...whatever it may bay.

When I tried to work at home it always seemed I'd wind up playing with the dog, receiving a call, turning on the TV, talking to roommates or when I was really desperate to procrastinate, I cleaned.

Try a under a shady tree or the local library to work. That's what I had to do more often than not.

Just a thought!

Raiderhader
05-10-2001, 04:50 PM
Kyle,
I know I have a problem with tact. I always have. I don't like to beat around the bush or sugar coat things. It takes time and is just hard for me to do because I like it straight. I want it as blunt as possible. Let's not waste time, I'm a big boy I can handle it, and if I can't then I have no place being in any kind of opionated discussionsm (especially political) . That is how I look at it anyway. I know that doesn't work for most people, you have to sweet and kind, use a gentle voice, and blah blah blah. I know I don't win anyone over with my abrupt style, but that is the only way I know (my Dad is the same way, but with time he has trained himself to be more tactful). And in this day and age, most people could use a dose of cold hard reality.

But this is what I don't get, I was a little upset at the fact that Conservatives were once again being lied about, but no where near steaming and ready to boil over. That post was straight forward, but didn't seem all that harsh to me (except for the fact that it is taboo to say something like that about liberals). But that just may be because it was toned down compared to what I usually say.

Raiderhader
05-10-2001, 04:51 PM
Another thing,
when trying to cut through lies that have become basic belief, you have to be a little bit louder and straight forward, or you'll never make it.

keg in kc
05-10-2001, 04:57 PM
I get you hader, and I don't have a problem with it, I just say that there is a difference between "tact" and "sugar coating". I hold the opinion that you must keep a calm head and have a certain degree of respect for the people you're dealing with.

I guess it depends on the circumstances - I usually debate to get other opinions and understand what people are thinking and consider whether they're right or not, because different people have different experiences. I think I can learn from anyone and everyone, in other words.

But a calm discourse is paramount for me in that case...

I guess I'm unique in that I participate in things like this more to pick people's brains and understand how they work than to defend my own position or try to convince people of what I believe, although that does, of course, happen from time to time (usually more in football than in politics...).

Probably part of being a writer, because the only way I can understand my own characters is to try to understand how real people think and work...

LapDog
05-10-2001, 05:11 PM
raiderhader-

No. It wasn't bad at all. However, having just been in a major altercation with Taco John, followed by some very honest posts about my attitudes toward black culture, I was feeling VERY exposed to attack. Backing a strongly worded opinion might have given the appearance that I'm actually an extremely unreasonable person who's pretending to be calm, sort of like Taco started doing in the other thread last night.

Didn't mean to make you second guess yourself. After rereading the post, it seems fine.

LapDog

LapDog
05-10-2001, 05:14 PM
raiderhader-

BTW, you're winning me over with the blunt direct style. That's my style, too, and I really appreciate the rare individuals who value true honesty over honey-coated words and political correctness.

LD

Raiderhader
05-10-2001, 06:05 PM
Kyle,
I understand what you are saying. I like to try and figure out why people think what they do, but generaly in a different discussion. When I am on the warpath I like to focus on nothing but that. Although understanding why people belive what they do can really help when attacking their beleifs (notice to all who think I am a "mean spirited Conservative", I said their beliefs, not them personally).



LapDog,
trust me, you didn't make me second guess myself. I was just curious how the both of you saw that post as really tough. Again, it was somewhat mild for me.

I am glad to hear that you also are tell it like it is guy. I agree that you don't get enough of it these days. I could never be an advocate for PC even if I was a liberal. I have no problems calling a retard a retard. Heck, it's not like they know if it is insenseitve or not, and I don't mean it to be, it's just the way I talk (Ahh, I can hear the shouts and cries of anger at me right now, and it is music to my ears). You can call me the Rush Limbaugh of the Planet, I say what's on my mind when it is on my mind. The only difference, he articulates his beliefs much better than I.

LapDog
05-10-2001, 07:00 PM
Originally posted by raiderhader
Heck, it's not like they know if it is insenseitve or not

oh man...
I'm still laughing...
not sure if you meant to do that or not, but I'll stand on the sidelines and watch the onslaught!

Raiderhader
05-10-2001, 07:11 PM
He!! yes I meant to say it! I am surprised that i haven't been raked over the coals for it already. Glad you got a good laugh out of it.

old_geezer
05-10-2001, 07:34 PM
Hader

Can't I leave you alone in the room for even a minute without you getting in deep water with the PC crowd again?
If I haven't said it yet I'll say it now. Don't change. We need less BS and more people who aren't afraid to express their own opinions. :cool:

keg in kc
05-10-2001, 07:38 PM
You might want to review the thread there, Geezer. Hader hasn't gotten in any trouble with anyone in this thread that I can see, certainly not any mythical "pc crowd".

I don't believe anyone even disagreed with anything he said, at least not so far.

Raiderhader
05-10-2001, 07:48 PM
Geezer,
:) no worries, I don't plan on giving the liberals what they want.;)


Kyle,
trust me, there are plenty who disagree with me. My guess is they either don't want to give me the satisfaction, or they don't care to get into a protracted argument with me. Just my guess anyway.

old_geezer
05-10-2001, 07:55 PM
Kyle

Hader and I have battled the forces for the liberal agenda on other threads and BB's. I was just joking with him. We always seem to be on the same side.

Raiderhader
05-10-2001, 07:59 PM
And how glad I am of it.:) (I believe that this is what Donko John would call a good old fashioned back slappin' fest)

keg in kc
05-10-2001, 08:01 PM
Funny, hader, but the impression I've gotten over the past three months is that this board is predominantly moderate and to the right of there, with a few left leaning people thrown in for good measure. I haven't seen anyone other than Donald (oleman) on this thread who could even be remotely be said to be argumentative on this topic, and he's no liberal by any stretch of the imagination. I think you're nipping at shadows, at least on this thread.

My question to you is what "liberal" is? Are you talking in terms of the actual political affiliation or do you refer to anyone who disagrees with you as being "liberal" out of hand I ask this because I often get that label when talking with conservatives, even though I'm not even remotely close to being a liberal, and now I see you calling out "liberals" on this thread where not a single one has made even a brief appearance?

Just curious, because it doesn't seem to me that there's been a very strong liberal presence on the board for quite some time now...

keg in kc
05-10-2001, 08:02 PM
I know Geezer, I'm just bored so I'm trying to stoke the fire... ;)

I'm really, really bored actually.

Wish my girl would get home.

Raiderhader
05-10-2001, 08:13 PM
Kyle,
I don't call people who disagree with me liberals unless they are. I have been in many discussions with people, who at the very least lean to the left, on issues such as this before. CRP claims to be a lib, I don't know if Cannibal does or not, but we have crossed paths on this very issue, Mark M and I have had discussions along similiar lines, and there have been a few others. But all of the people I mentioned still post here, and unless I am unaware of it, still cling to the same beliefs. Libs are evry where, there like a bad rash you can't get rid of.:D

Rausch
05-10-2001, 08:31 PM
I loved comics as a kid, and every now and again still pick up the occasional book. I read the Hulk into college, but when David left, so did the storytelling.

I'm a night owl myslef, and the only major work I've done is more of a short novel that is starting to seem better off as a script.


I love to wright, and I do MAKE time...Quite often I'll be drinking many beers at the computer and then "BAM"! Good idea, i write it all down..

Next day, it's a bunch of crap, but with one GREAT idea buried in there...Strange, but sometimes the occasional drinking does seem to get me started.

And being an insomniac, yeah, I'm a night owl myself. I'm still trying to decide which childhood dream to keep, comics writer or sports columnist.......Choices choices.....BOth jobs of course being a great victory in the battle to never grow up! :-)#

Rausch
05-10-2001, 08:39 PM
I loved comics as a kid, and every now and again still pick up the occasional book. I read the Hulk into college, but when David left, so did the storytelling.

I'm a night owl myslef, and the only major work I've done is more of a short novel that is starting to seem better off as a script.


I love to wright, and I do MAKE time...Quite often I'll be drinking many beers at the computer and then "BAM"! Good idea, i write it all down..

Next day, it's a bunch of crap, but with one GREAT idea buried in there...Strange, but sometimes the occasional drinking does seem to get me started.

And being an insomniac, yeah, I'm a night owl myself. I'm still trying to decide which childhood dream to keep, comics writer or sports columnist.......Choices choices.....BOth jobs of course being a great victory in the battle to never grow up! :-)#

old_geezer
05-10-2001, 08:56 PM
I think Brad may have hit the wrong thread :confused:

Kyle, I'll try to answer what I consider a liberal but it's really tough to put something like that in a neat little box.

My opinion of a liberal mindset: Wants more taxes for more government spending - believes government can spend my money for programs I don't want to support. The NEA is a great example. Tax money should not be spent to promote X-rated art. And before you start, I believe the majority of us know X-rated art when we see it.
Believes more government is better. I want the government as small and unobtrusive as I can get it.
Believes government should confiscate handguns from law-abiding citizens.
These are just a few things off the top of my head. And yes, I believe there are liberals in both the Democratic and Republican partys.
Last but not least, I am a bible-believing, born-again Christian, and whatever your religion - it is (or should be) a major part of your life and it should not be hidden at home and never brought out in public. Liberals seem to think that you should never profess your faith in public. (Not much use for that kind of faith).

Rausch
05-10-2001, 09:03 PM
I don't know how the hell this happened, but instead of my post getting posted where it should have, it NOT ONLY started a new thread I had to delete, but then posted in on this topic instead...




WTF???

oleman47
05-10-2001, 09:22 PM
There is a great liberal tradition in this country beginning with those who revolted against religious tyranny and a other restraints of the British colonialists.
It continued with those who fought to free the slaves, oppose Germany twice. There has been a consistent thread of liberalism throughout our history, the sanctity of the individual. Now there is another opponent, the corporation.

oleman47
05-10-2001, 09:25 PM
Bear with me, just learning to be a liberal, only a few hours into this. I feel liberated already.

DanT
05-10-2001, 09:35 PM
Hey Kyle,

I'm one of the few liberals on this board. There aren't many of us. Human nature being what it is, people aren't inclined to hang out in places where the name for one of their demographic traits is used by locals as a multi-purpose pejorative. ;)

DanT

oleman47
05-11-2001, 04:57 AM
Heck, I didn't even know I was liberal until these BBS's. Beginning to enjoy it.

yoswif
05-11-2001, 08:37 AM
There was a marxist/socialist demagogue in the '30's who believed he "embodied all that was good". His name was Adolf Hitler.

What policy is more racist than our marxist/socialist socialist security system which has stolen trillions of dollars from low and lower middle income minorities whose life expectancy is short and funnelled it to upper middle class white's who have a much longer life expectancy?

What policy is more racist than the marxist/socialist establishment taxing, regulating, and litigating all of our good paying manufacturing and natural resource based jobs, jobs traditionally held by less educated and skilled minorities, either out of existence or out of the country?

Logical
05-11-2001, 06:04 PM
DanT,

I really do not consider you a liberal as you are too inconsistent to be labeled. I feel you do not have the traditional conservative proclivity to hate all things related to big government, yet you are fiscally conservative, you follow logic with your arguments almost always (not a liberal trait), you rarely base your arguments on emotion (I believe a conservative trait), and you tend to be able to see both sides of many if not most issues, if there was ever a true independent I view you in that category.

Hope you view this as praise.

DanT
05-11-2001, 07:05 PM
Logical,

I appreciate your comments. I'm not exactly sure what the current definition of liberal is; I consider myself a liberal in the traditional, centuries-old sense of that label. I'm proud to belong to a tradition that values individual rights and that respects rule by popularly-elected deliberative bodies more than it respects rule by kings, oligarchs or theocrats.

For what it's worth, the speakout.com site scored me a "moderate libertarian liberal". I do have some strong conservative tendencies (especially a respect for the received wisdom of previous generations of my countrymen in matters of law and policy and a strong dislike of any loss of American sovereignty) and I have some tendencies in economic matters that could be labelled either liberal or conservative depending on context (e.g. internationally, my preference for free trade and free market is considered "liberal"). I'm a civil libertarian of the variety that feels that citizens need to be able to own their own guns in order to protect themselves from tyrants.

My dislike of corruption and of partisan politics means that I'm comfortable with the label "independent". Within either major party, though, I think my views would tend to put me in what historically has been the "liberal" wing.

DanT
05-11-2001, 07:17 PM
An example of a loss of American sovereignty that bothers me are the bodies that have been set up to arbitrate trade disputes among the parties to a free-trade agreement. In other words, I like the principles behind NAFTA, GATT, and such; I don't like it, however, that, for example, laws from Mexico's historically corrupt government could prevail over American laws on matters of the safety of our food supply.

DanT
05-11-2001, 07:43 PM
Hey Logical,

One more thing. In looking over the longwinded self-absorption of my last coupla' posts here, I realized that I share one truly nonpartisan trait with all of Congress: not knowing how to get to the point and then shutting the F' up! :)

Sorry about that!