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keg in kc
05-09-2001, 07:02 PM
No comments of my own yet, but after seeing Donald's commentary on Conservatism, I'd be interested in seeing what people have to say concerning racism, but in a more...neutral forum or vein (i.e. non political). We have white racism, black racism, classism, xenophobia and so many other things, and I know what I believe and I'd be interested in hearing about the experiences and beliefs of others.

This is not intended to be a thread to pass judgement on anyone or their beliefs, by the way, I just think it might be a good subject for some open discussion, especially in the football-soft month of May. So, hopefully some people will come out and post openly and honestly.

47mack
05-09-2001, 07:46 PM
I think that racism is the most over used term in our society. It is to the point that no one is allowed to tell anyone no for fear of a law suit.

oleman47
05-09-2001, 07:58 PM
Good luck on the nice approach. However, after a few months of holding back and overlooking the obvious, and crucified for the slightest deviations of orthodoxy, I said to myself I was selling out for what. A bunch of apes.

Brock
05-09-2001, 08:06 PM
Is that Dennis Hopper line from "Blue Velvet"?

ExtremeChief
05-09-2001, 08:37 PM
I grew up in a town of 1400. Through high school, there was not one single minority in the town, with the exception of one Iranian exchange student (he prefered to be called Persian, since he was here during the Iran Hostage Crisis). It was a typical small farming community, not much excitement.

In 1994 a facility was built that brought about 700 jobs to this small town. People were glad to have jobs here, as most HS seniors were moving to other areas since this community lacked opportunity. I moved as well, in 1988. When this facility was built, questions were asked about how they could fully staff this facility. The idea was put across that people would move here, and build homes, therefore bolstering the community and local economy.

What actually happened is that this company put up a sign just south of El Paso advertising jobs. They brought up Hispanics to fill vacant positions. I understand this is not a new concept, but I can say it was definitely new to the residents of this small community.

I can honestly say that there is a lot of hatred here now. Race wars, from verbal to violent, are commonplace here now. We now have an overpopulated school, and haven't been able to pass a bond issue, mainly because alot of residents here don't want to pay for the "Mexicans" to go to school. While I disagree with that viewpoint, since I see it as all the kids need a new school, I can understand where they are coming from. Many of the "new" members of the community are government subsidies, and live 10 or more in one dwelling. Therefore, not much revenue is raised from them from taxes.

As far as racism, I don't think they are any less people than I am. They are just coming to work, like most of us. But the hatred here is incredible, and nothing like the friendly community I grew up in. Change is hard, and the jury is still out here on whether or not it's good or bad...

ExtremeChief
05-09-2001, 09:20 PM
From a personal standpoint...

I do think something should be done to crack down on illegal immigrants coming into the US. Not because I feel they are taking jobs away from anyone else though. I just don't think its fair for our tax dollars to help someone who didn't come here legally. I also think that learning English should be a priority. Speaking English can only help an immigrant find work and succeed in this nation of ours.

I disagree with Ebonics, Affirmative Action, etc. I don't think anyone should get a job or pass high school because of ethnicity. While I am not blind to the problems minorities face in the world, I think these programs are going overboard. I also believe there are just as many racists who have a skin color that isn't white, as there are that do have white skin. I don't judge people based on there race, but feel like a lot of minorities think that all whites do.

I do think we've come a long way since the 60's, but still have a long way to go. I don't think more govt. is the answer though. I wish I new what was.

Archie F. Swin
05-09-2001, 11:42 PM
It seems white people have the narrowest margin of error.

BIG_DADDY
05-10-2001, 11:35 AM
I think that MOST racism is total BS. Race just becomes an issue when you already don't like someone for any given reason. I will use Extremechief's situation as an example. You take all of these guys that say they hate the mexicans and offer them a stunning senorita who will love them and they will take her every time. That being the case, anytime we don't like someone we will focas on anything that makes them different. From another country, has blue eyes, came from wealth, ect. We do NOT need the goverment to address these issues other than what they would already do for any human being. The government screws this up just like they screw up everything else. They put fuel on the fire by concentrating on what makes us different instead of what makes us the same. (affirmative action, ebonics ect.)

Lightning Rod
05-10-2001, 11:39 AM
Why hate groups of people when they give you so many reasons to do it on an individual basis?

Gaz
05-10-2001, 12:44 PM
Racism is laziness. Rather than get to know a person or educate yourself about an issue, you just make a decision on an easy criteria.

I know several people who are racist when discussing entire groups, but are very good friends with individual members of those same groups. “_______ is different,” they say, “he’s not like the rest of them.”

The NAACP is just as racist at the KKK. Each takes positions on issues based solely on race.

“Racist” has become a club with which to beat down those who question preferential treatment. If I do not like Affirmative Action, then I must be a racist. If I promote curbs on illegal immigration, I must be a racist. If I want folks to learn the common language of our country, I must be a racist. Blatant extortion.

The overuse of this cheap extortion has weakened the battle against real racism. I have heard the “racist” tag used so often for such outrageous purposes, then legitimate complaints of racism now must make it past my “here we go again” filter.

If you tell me you want to fight discrimination, I am firmly on your side. Point out the guy or organization who is discriminating against you and I will support punishing him/her/it to the full extent of the law. When you tell me your particular special interest group [race, religion, physical needs, sexual orientation, so forth] needs preferential treatment, I am 100% opposed to you.

xoxo~
Gaz
Not like the rest of the SQUABMEs.

AustinChief
05-10-2001, 02:49 PM
Well... I would give my thougts.. but Gaz stole them.
Darn mechanical engineers... a software engineer would never do that! ;)

--Kyle

LD for KC
05-10-2001, 03:00 PM
I grew up on Prospect, Trust, Holmes streets in Kansas City. Those of you who live there, know that this was later called a Ghetto, by the "buzz word merchants" of that time. Never really knew it as anything but the "neighborhood". I like most kids went and joined the military, or waited to be drafted.

I spent two tours in Viet Nam. I learned there are really only two kinds of people in the world. Those that walk the walk, and those that, only talk the talk. For me there were whites who you could not trust, and blacks that you could. The reverse was true as well. One of the most brave NON HERO men I ever knew was Filipino.

Now that I am in my "middle years" I look back on my life and am angered by the many times I have not been hired, or did not get the promotion, because someone says I must feel guilt for what my grandfather may have done. And that there is a racial quota that must be met.

But I have my honor to face, and can't ignore the debt I may have for my once "BROTHERS" I can't let lesser men make me a racist by their deeds, because they have no worth by comparison.

So am I a racist, I like who I like, I hate who I hate, I love who I love. I maybe when I answer to my maker I will find out, or maybe it just won't matter.

LD for KC

58Forever
05-10-2001, 03:09 PM
I still live in the so called "ghetto" and I wouldn't trade for anyting less than a mansion by the ocean...

I love the diversity the inner city offers. In my area there are everything from professionals, lawyers, etc, black, white and hispanic to the lowest homeless person...

Kids actually play in the street and they are all colors...i get to go the the store and shop with whites, blacks, hispanics, asians you name it...

And because of this I have come to know their cultures better and am not threatened by them at all...

Racism is not going away but I won't tolerate it...I mean, you can move to an area that is all white or all black or all mexican, but unless you stay in your home all the time, you will always have to come in contact with another race....we all have to live on the same planet, why not try it together....:)

Otter
05-10-2001, 05:26 PM
Racism is alive and well and its certainly not going anywhere anytime soon, and unfortunately, there is nothing any one of us could do to get rid of the overall problem. Its human nature nature to guard your own.

But its also human curiosity which allows us to learn and explore outside of our own little comfort zone. I think if more people, including myself, could take the time to learn about someone before making a judgement instead of making the judgment and then have to be proven otherwise, the world would be a little bit better for it.

I get angry when the word racism is thrown around and used as an excuse for sloth, greed and hatred.

And before I go into another rambling, I'll quote Forest Gump in saying: "that's all I have to say about that".

otter
~not too many nice things to say

oleman47
05-10-2001, 07:38 PM
I think the skinhead is honest and I deal with that ok. I just consider them part of the bell curve of creation, some are born with five toes. What gets me worked up is those who say I am not a racist, it is just a matter of states rights, or they brought on themselves, or whatever the subterfuge. And I really dislike a political party to do this for this gives the green light to the wink and nod. The smug comraderie really sets me off.

On the other side, to cry racist to achieve political gains is repulsive as well. I have found when an individual complains, if not a politician, it is usually true once all the facts are known.

But the new game in town is racial profiling, which has the joy of being half true sometimes but omits the whole story. Selective statistics can kill. It is happening every day.

Chiefs Pantalones
05-10-2001, 09:13 PM
I am totally against racism. WE ALL are created equal. Everyone is different, but we are all people, and everyone should be treated the same.

Its a shame that racism is still an issue. But it is in this messed up world.

CG

will always be against racism

morphius
05-10-2001, 09:23 PM
Simple, don't hate someone because of their color or their culture, there are enough reasons to hate everyone as an individual.

Gaz
05-11-2001, 08:06 AM
How is profiling racism?

If the vast majority of a particular crime is committed by a certain race or religion or political persuasion or body type, why is it "ist" to use that information when attempting to prevent that particular crime? This is simply the application of known parameters to narrow down the field.

If, for example, most slide-rule related crimes were committed by squat, middle-aged, balding Mechanical Engineers, then the police would be correct to scrutinize SQUABMEs carrying slide rules. "Hands agains the wall, Gaz, you know the routine."

The furor over "racial profiling" is exactly the racism that I abhor. The statistics clearly show a trend, yet certain groups howl racism rather than face the unpleasant fact of that trend.

xoxo~
Gaz
Thinks racism is ugly, no matter who perpetrates it.

Iowanian
05-11-2001, 08:54 AM
Where I grew up, the "trend" was that teenage males in trucks or jacked up cars tended to have beer in their posession on weekend nights....and most week days....How strange it was that the city yolkels tended to pull into the lots that we "loitered" or gathered to BS, strolled around, looked in vehicles, impounded beer and sometimes issued a ticket.....

It probably wasn't "racial profiling" but I'm guessing they didn't look in the trunk of every grandmother they pulled over....

The Trend was that we had beer, barked tires, occassionally engaged in "fisticuffs" as one officer put it.....so thats exactly what we were watched for.....and the magistrate list in the paper illustrated it clearly.

Its the same thing except in some areas they look for persons in baggy pants, who "tend" to have drugs or wepons in some areas....

ExtremeChief
05-11-2001, 09:31 AM
I don't quite agree with you Gaz...while I can understand your point as far as trends, that doesn't justify police pulling people over simply because of their ethnicity.

I can understand police using more caution when making a stop due to race, based on your trends...but race shouldn't be used for "probable cause".


Maybe the problem is in definition alone...as long as stops are being made due to violations, and not due to skin color only, I can live with that.

Gaz
05-11-2001, 09:45 AM
ExtremeChief-

If the criterion used is simply skin color, then the profiling is being misused.

If the criteria are “black male, under twenty-five years, affecting a certain style of dress or wearing gang colors, driving very slowly in an area known for drug trade,” then that represents a real trend. In that case profiling is a legitimate tool.

If the criteria are “Hispanic male, traveling one-way ticket from a destination known to be a transit port for drugs, no luggage, sweating profusely,” then that represents a real trend. In that case profiling is a legitimate tool.

Profiling is based on established, real tendencies. That is not racism. In fact, it is racism to object to profiling simply on the basis of the race of the “profilee.” . Racism is not white Vs black, it occurs any time a decision or opinion is based solely on race. That is the very definition of racism.

Now, if we want to discuss why young black males are so disproportionately represented in the drug trade, then we can discuss the cultural and industrial racism that makes the drug trade a more attractive option than competing in the job market. That is an entirely different discussion.

There is racism that makes it harder for a young black male to succeed in the work force.

There is also racism that objects to the use of legitimate tools for enforcing the law.

Both types are bad, IMO.

xoxo~
Gaz
Holding all racists to the same standard.

yoswif
05-11-2001, 10:41 AM
Whatever racism did exist in the past, does exist now, or will exist in the future, government sponsored race based solutions like quotas and preferences will only make things worse not better. When government bureaucrats (census takers) are standing on my front porch demanding to know my race, we've gone way over the line, IMO. How much did it cost the taxpayers for that census taker to stand on my porch for a half hour and try to browbeat me into filling out an outrageously invasive form.

And a couple PS's. I've lived on an Indian Reservation virtually my entire life. My closest neighbor is an Indian and a big Chiefs fan. And they are American Indians, not Native Americans. My more radical Indian friends belong to the Amercan Indian Movement, not the Native American Movement. And when I go by the Indian store (owned by the tribe) and I see Indian taco's advertised on the signboard, you can understand why I laugh when I see or hear someone use the term Native American.

ExtremeChief
05-11-2001, 11:16 AM
I agree with you on those two examples. But that doesn't justify the businessman in a suit, or teacher that gets pulled over for no reason at all other than skin color.

I guess the difference is "racial" profiling and just "profiling". What makes it hard is deciding whats over the line. It's just another issue that makes it harder to be a police officer in today's world.

I don't see how either one of your examples are racial profiling, I would assume that both would be questioned regardless of skin color. Those aren't typical of what I would call racial profiling. Again, it's more of a definition problem.

LD for KC
05-11-2001, 11:17 AM
We are knocking around the American version of the term "Racist" like we have an exclusive on the this mind set. I would think that a Croatian for example would trade his definition for ours any day.

Point here is we are not alone in this "sin", and certainly not the occupants of "glass houses."

I agree that our govt. spends a lot of it's efforts playing us off against each other. I think I will go with "all men are created equal", and everyone should be the chance to go as far as their talents will let them. So the question begs, who is stopping this from happening?
And can such a concept exist in the real world?

LD for KC

Iowanian
05-11-2001, 11:54 AM
2 of my brothers, my dad, an uncle and a cousin have all been pulled over in the last 2 months for "no license plate illumination"...2 during the day.

everyone knows it is a friggin' scam to check seatbelts, registration, or give a guy a breathalizer if its dark...

Its complete crap, but its not "racial profiling".....because we belong to the only group in which a color is "UM-Kay" to single out without the PC Nazi's screaming and filing lawsuits....Redneck.

redskin-bad
redneck-ok

I've come to believe that Bad crap happens to everyone. I come from a small rural environment and live in a town that is a "mecca" for black folks getting out of the Detroit Ghetto......I like and often drink with a few of these fellows....but some of them are just plain thugs.....and my boys will be the first to tell you to put your wallet in your pocket when the "younguns" come in....

I don't fault people for getting knocked down...I don't respect those who don't get back up.....I'm not sure who said that, but i like it....black, white, red, green, blue, yellow....and whitetrash rednecks....same rules for everyone...

oleman47
05-11-2001, 12:09 PM
Gaz and others
Fail to see your argument that racial profiling does not involve race. Which was my point. Iowain brought up "baggy" pants profiling as probable cause which is where this is heading. I bet baggy pants is not treated the same at the local all white Christian Academy as it in the inner city.
There is the argument that it is stereotyping, and allows actions by the authoritarians to incarcerate and harrass based not on ones individual actions but what a person like you might do. You might not be reaching for a wallet so I will kill you.

oleman47
05-11-2001, 12:14 PM
Profiling is not good for cops either. Walking up to a profile of the non-threatening stereotype and getting their head blown off.

oleman47
05-11-2001, 12:23 PM
Profiling is not good for cops either. Walking up to a profile of the non-threatening stereotype and getting their head blown off.

Gaz
05-11-2001, 12:43 PM
oleman47-

I did not say that profiling does not involve race. In fact, race was included in the examples I listed in my post. I said that it is not “racism” to include race in the profile.

In fact it is racism to object to a profile simply because it does include race. That is an objection based solely on the race of the subject. That is blatant racism.

It does not matter if you are racist in favor of or against a person, it is still racist and is a weak foundation for an opinion, IMO.

Certainly some officers abuse their power. Certainly some of them use race as the sole determining factor. They are just as racist as the person who objects to profiling because it includes race. Both are wrong, IMO.

You do not abandon a useful tool simply because some folks will abuse it [lawn mower, chain saw, automobile, slide rule, profiling, so forth]. Nor do you abandon a tool simply because some folks do not like the very existence of the tool because of the hard, unpleasant truths it shoves in your face.

Profiling is a valid tool for law enforcement. If you do not like the fact that young black men fit the profile for drug dealer, then you should look at why that is happening. Do not blame profiling for their disproportionate representation in the profile.

xoxo~
Gaz
Cares more about what profiling reveals and is used than how folks feel about it.

Iowanian
05-11-2001, 01:48 PM
profiling should be eliminated....I guess that when dead prostitutes start disappearing, or children being kidnapped the FBI and other groups should stop using profilers to tell them to look for white males age 25-35 with histories of animal cruelty, etc.....

Cereal killers are profiled based on trends and facts.
Kidnappers are profiled" " """""""
Drug Dealers are profiled" " " " " " " "
Sex offenders are profiled " " " " " " "


In the town in which I currently live, If something is stolen from a car or house, more often than not it ends up being one of the kids walking around with pants 10 sizes too big, wife beater shirts in the summer, hooded starter coats in the winder, bandanas on the head, earings in their ear, littering and dropping cigarette butts on the sidewalk...and cussing at cars while they are jaywalking.....and they are usual of cacasion persuasion.........but if something is missing from my house.....am I stupid to start looking there.....no.

~its why and how I get my stuff back.

I suppose it wasn't racial when the blacks were burning out the Koreans during the LA riots and telling them to "GO back where you come from, get out of OUR neighborhood"

oleman47
05-11-2001, 02:18 PM
Gaz
Seems to be semantical problem. I don't feel I said "just" in the sense you state it, and you feel I misquoted your meaning.

A black being stopped because he is driving a BMW, is to me, racist. Even black Republican congressmen are complaining.

There is profiling of various criminal tendencies and there is racial profiling. Where race is the key starting point of the profile, so that all else may be only secondary to the racial element. AS I STATED BEFORE, there is the statistical and true element of a racial profile but it fails to reveal the whole story. This is being abused under the umbrella of profiling. Further, I do not in anyway regard that as me being racist.

Pitt Gorilla
05-11-2001, 02:31 PM
By definition, anytime you think of or refer to somone by their race, you are a racist.

Gaz
05-11-2001, 02:32 PM
oleman47-

Of course there are abuses. Those who abuse the tool should be shown the error of their ways. That does not invalidate the tool itself.

I cited examples in a previous post of the proper use of profiling that includes the race of the individual. That is not racism.

Unless there is a statistical correlation between a black man driving a BMW and a specific crime being targeted, then “black man in BMW” would not be a valid profile, IMO. If, however, a significant percentage of crimes in an area are committed by black men in BMWs, then it is legitimate, even if it is insulting to those who are not involved in crime.

By the way, I did not call you a racist. I said that an attack on profiling based solely on the fact that blacks are disproportionately represented is making a judgment based solely on race. That, by definition, is racism.

xoxo~
Gaz
Waiting for a valid condemnation of profiling, rather than anecdotal horror stories.

oleman47
05-11-2001, 02:49 PM
Gaz
I guess we have different tolerance levels for such an imperfect tool.

Gaz
05-11-2001, 03:00 PM
I choose to correct those who abuse the tool, instead of throwing the tool away.

xoxo~
Gaz
Keeping his chainsaw, despite misuse by Leatherface.

Gaz
05-11-2001, 03:04 PM
My foundation belief is making any judgment based solely on one criteria [race, hair color, dress, shoe size, so forth] is lazy and sloppy thinking.

Suppose I made decisions about people based on the length of their hair? All men with long hair are lazy, worthless hippies and all women with short hair are overly-masculine lesbians.

Clearly ludicrous, yes?

Only because we have come to accept varying hair length. It did not happen overnight, and those foolish conclusions I listed above would have been all too prevalent a few years ago.

Thus with racism.

You cannot [and should not, IMO] regulate how people feel. In fact, I must defend a person’s right to be a racist, even though I disagree with this perspective. A person has the right to be as racist as they please, provided they do not abuse another person’s rights. It is easy to defend Dr. King’s speech, but it ain’t so easy defending Farrakahn or Duke. But the right of each of them to free and unfettered speech must be defended, like it or not.

The only way racism will die out is via attrition. You will not legislate it out of existence. You can only object to it when you hear it and hope that you make an impact on the person espousing those views. I have caused a few awkward scenes during discussions by pointing this out and may not have made one whit of difference. But the effort should be made, IMO.

xoxo~
Gaz
Going to have to wait for racism to die on its own.

Gaz
05-11-2001, 03:11 PM
KKK? Racism.

Affirmative Action? Racism.

Is one worse than the other?

xoxo~
Gaz
Finds all racism offensive.

Gaz
05-11-2001, 03:13 PM
I am outta here, folks, but I will be interested to see your honest responses to my question.

xoxo~
Gaz
Meeting up with Mrs. Gaz.

AustinChief
05-11-2001, 03:25 PM
Gaz,

Hard to say.

One demeans minorities, looks only at the color of the skin and presents constant hurdles to self-improvement... and the KKK can be pretty bad too.

--Kyle

keg in kc
05-11-2001, 03:31 PM
Suppose I made decisions about people based on the length of their hair? All men with long hair are lazy, worthless hippies and all women with short hair are overly-masculine lesbians.

Boy, Gaz, you'd have a real problem with me and my future wife: I have shoulder-length hair (and 5 earrings - 3 in the left, 2 in the right) whereas Tracy has hair giving her the appearance of a peac-THWAP!! "sorry honey, I was just describi-" THWAP!! "Yes, dear, sorry, dear. Shutting up now."

Zebedee DuBois
05-11-2001, 06:12 PM
Originally posted by Gaz
KKK? Racism.

Affirmative Action? Racism.

Is one worse than the other?

Well, I understand your point, but cannot equate these two orginazations/schools of thought.

One has a history of violence, and while they may not openly preach violence now, the KKK still seem to revel in their murderous history.

The other has not preached violence, but is trying to better the lives and oppurtunities of peoples that have been unfairly treated in the past by the means of Jim Crow laws and olemans' wink and a nod.

I agree that each has a right to their opinions and that right shall be unabridged, but when opinion leads to action that denies another american their rights - that is evil.
I think Afirmitive action is a necessary evil needed to at least try to even the balance. I also think it has about run its' course and should be phased out.

Otter
05-11-2001, 06:42 PM
Racism Bad, Beer Good

MMMMmmmm...Beerrrr

NaptownChief
05-11-2001, 06:45 PM
This is probably the most frustrating topic that I could talk about...

I realize my world is probably a bit different from some, but I was born and raised in Bloomington, IN...If it weren't for the university the demographics would be almost exclusively white. But fortunately with Indiana University in town there was a tremendous amount of diversity and I grew up from day one with kids of all makes and models...Those kids had origins from all over the world and were generally products of highly educated parents that came to Bloomington to teach and or study at the University. So my exposure was to primarily top of the line examples of very educated, highly productive, classy people...

So from a very early age it was ingrained in me that people are people, and we just look different. Still to this day I consider myself completely color blind. Regardless of skin color you have everything ranging from class to complete trash. My judgement is exclusively based on character...But due to the sensitivity that has developed from the P.C. movement it forces me to have to be "color sensitive"... For example, if I see a white person that I despise because they are complete trash I am free to call them trash. But if I see a minority that falls into the same category, I have to refrain from comment because 9 out of 10 people that would hear me make that same comment would attack me as a racist...

I hate that we live in a world that isn't color blind, I hate even more that we live in a world that doesn't allow me to treat everyone the same...

BigMeatballDave
05-11-2001, 06:46 PM
I believe Affirmative Action looks good on paper. I just think it should be the best person for the job.

TheFly
05-11-2001, 07:28 PM
"Cultural Diversity" = Politically Correct Bigotry

NaptownChief
05-11-2001, 09:31 PM
Originally posted by TheFly
"Cultural Diversity" = Politically Correct Bigotry

Fly,

I'm not sure I follow you...To me, diverse means different. Cultural diversity means you have people of multiple backgrounds, religions, upbringing etc.etc...

The fact that I can see a word and see nothing more than a definition that means to be different and you can view the exact same word and find things such as bigotry shows that you and I together would create a great example of cultural diversity cause we clearly view things different based on our background...

AustinChief
05-11-2001, 09:45 PM
jl80,
...just a guess here... but I think Fly meant the <b>term</b> "cultural diversity" stressing the quotes...

as in... when it is a forced issue and attempted to be brought about in hypocritical and damaging ways or when it is used to excuse certain groups from culpability or when a lack of is automatically associated with "racism"...

I could go on...

You're definition is accurate... but I think it was the context that it is used as a "catch-phrase" that was at issue...

--Kyle (again just guessing...)

tommykat
05-11-2001, 09:46 PM
Kyle,
Unfortuntely, people do look at people with long hair and especially with an earring or more as a problem. Hum, maybe because I do hair I just don't see that in people as others do. But living in Springfield, MO. we don't have a lot of black people here so I haven't really been around many. But the ones I have met are just like me. There is white trash and black trash. Not just putting these as the only people. I just happen to live in a very conservative city. But from my experiences from traveling, I have met many people from different countries and haven't met any odd balls I guess would be a good word. But, the Candanians sure do party..LOL. As do the Jamacians.


______________________________________
Back when I drank I tried to keep up with the islanders and all I did was run into a palm tree and many other things..true BLONDE~
Diet coke please...:D

keg in kc
05-11-2001, 10:17 PM
Tommycat, I've never had any problem from anyone because of either my hair or my earrings. I may look like the most encouragable fat, bearded, long-haired, ear-pierced redneck ever to set foot on god's green earth, but as soon as I open my mouth people seem to know otherwise. I'm a walking, talking example of why you can't always judge people based soley on appearances...

My fiance is black by the way, and my joke to Gaz was referring to the fact that I have long hair and she has short hair, so we're completely polar opposites to what he sees as "normal".

oleman47
05-11-2001, 10:22 PM
Had no idea that the phrase, "cultural diversity" had so many shades of meaning. That its use denoted bigotry. I know cultures are diverse, ie there are diverse cultures. "You sir! are a diverse culture!" "Hey, what's wrong with, you belong to a diverse culture." " Man your're culture is sure diverse." "Monolithic culture good."

tommykat
05-11-2001, 10:24 PM
So Gaz what's the deal? You think because Kyle is marrying someone that is black is wrong? The only problem I have with this is the children. They just don't seem to fit with the white or black crowd. That is tough on them. But it is up to the individual as to what they choose. If I meet a black guy and fell in love it wouldn't bother me in the least. NOW, my parents however would KILL me. They are very much the bigots. I was even told when I was able to date if I ever thought about that NOT TO. Oh well, at 42 if I did they would have to respect me or not see me. I like to believe the first would happen.

_________________________________

But my Parents know I am very strong willed and do as I will....:eek: which scares them to death~

TheFly
05-11-2001, 10:30 PM
Kyle was pretty close to what I was getting at...

For example, I came across a couple who happened to have a Mexican culture. Now the guy was *****-slapping his wife. When I told him he was out of line, he and his wife told me it was their culture and that made it okay.

So cultural diversity to me is seen as an excuse to continue bad practices and prejudices with a very "acceptable" term...

keg in kc
05-11-2001, 10:32 PM
I don't know where that came from tommycat, Gaz didn't say anything regarding that - it was the long haired hippy men and the short haired dykish women, not a black and white thing...

And there's no 'black crowd' or 'white crowd' that our kids would have to fit into, and they won't have any difficulty in life. Mixed couples are not unusual in any way, shape or form any more, and beyond that is the fact that we're all of mixed ancestry and likely from African descent anyway (quite a stir about this in the scientific community yesterday).

My question is this. If white people hate black people so much, than why do people try to get tans? ;)

AustinChief
05-11-2001, 10:38 PM
Other Kyle,

What's particularly funny is there have been some studies done on genetics that more or less prove that as more genetically disparate groups get together... the outcome is a healthier and stronger human race... a prime example being America... I live in Europe right now and America (in my opinion) is a much better place genetically speaking because of racial diversity and the intermingling that occurs.

Stressing here that these are my opinions based loosely on past genetic research on the matter.

Oh and the fact that some of the hottest babes I've ever met were of recently mixed racial ancestry.
Pretty girls are always a plus.

--Kyle

tommykat
05-11-2001, 10:39 PM
My mistake in the reading. I thought Gaz was just making a statement. Sorry to you and to Gaz. :o

Not like me to come off the way it seemed to.

chieffanphil
05-11-2001, 11:57 PM
I think to much is being made of racism in this country today , if the media would drop all this talk about racism it might make things better .Yes racism is bad and its not just the white people , it is also black people too. But it isn't just a black or white thing , as long as we are here on this earth there will be people who treat other people bad . White people treat other white people bad as do black people other black people . Discrimination comes in all colors , sizes and sex , men discriminate against women , rich against poor ( might be the biggest problem of all in my opinon) country against country , non christians against christians and this could go on and on . There will be some of you who will criticize me or call me a racist because i am from the state of Mississippi . Yes racism is a problem and we should all love each other , but there are a lot more problems in the world that are worse than this but the media does love to talk up trouble on this subject . How about the killing of millions of unborn babies in this country . Where is the media when their rights are discussed . As long as we are on this earth in these mortal bodies we will have discrimination of all kinds .

California Injun
05-12-2001, 02:24 AM
I hate the Oakland Raiders!

I dislike their organization and everything is stands for.

When I see a fan sporting a Raiders hat or jacket I immediately assume he is a low class loser.

Now my question.

Am I "profiling" or does this qualify for "racism"?

Otter
05-12-2001, 02:31 AM
Cali,

We are talking about human beings here.

Get with the program! :D

Gaz
05-12-2001, 08:23 AM
Zebedee DuBois-

It seems that we agree that both the KKK and Affirmative Action are racism, yes? A position based solely on race.

The "necessary evil" part is interesting. Affirmative Action is racism and discrimination in action. We accept this evil in the name of redressing another evil? I cannot agree with that. Affirmative Action is just as wrong as Jim Crow laws. It is discrimination and cannot be justified by "noble" intent.

If someone is discriminated against for a facet of their life [race, so forth], I an on their side in opposing the discriminator. If someone asks for preferential treatment because of that facet, I am firmly opposed to them.

I defend the right of any individual to be prejudiced. If he/she prefers to associate with people of the same hue, gender, religion, so forth, that is okay with me. I will choose not to associate with that person, but I have no interest in forcing him/her to change that view.

However, I object to attempts by any group to force their particular prejudice on me. That applies equally to the KKK, the NAACP, NOW or any other group requesting special treatment due to some parameter [race, gender, sexual orientation, team affiliation, so forth]. I do not discriminate when it comes to discrimination.

xoxo~
Gaz
Equal-opportunity offender.

oleman47
05-12-2001, 09:01 AM
Racism is the concept that one race is inferior to another. The KKK endorses this view, while affirmative action is a denial of the policies that have permeated society from its racism.

While there should be no law against you thinking others are inferior, there should be laws against you using the prejudice to the detriment of others.

Gaz
05-12-2001, 09:09 AM
Racism is the concept that one race is inferior to another.

No. Racism is discrimination on the basis of race.

Affirmative Action is racism, because it discriminates on the basis of race. You can argue that your purpose is noble, but you are still discriminating on the basis of race. You can try to pretty it up with horror stories of injustice, but it is discrimination, plain and simple.

xoxo~
Gaz
Not accepting that convenient definition.

Zebedee DuBois
05-12-2001, 09:41 AM
..we may be differing on definitions. I would agree that affirmative action is discrimination. I do not know that I would say all discrimination is racism.
Discrimination is making a choice of A over B, Racism is believing B is just inferior to A.
Perhaps you could use your tool analagy (from the profiling thread) to this situation. AA is a tool to correct a situation that was deliterious to the greater good. Not a tool to be used for all time, but also not a tool to never be used.

oleman47
05-12-2001, 09:45 AM
Discrimination is one of the results of racism but is not the definition.

The basic argument against women's rights has been their inferiority. When our nation was born, blacks were not regarded as completely human more like property, ie more like women. Discrimination followed.

Hitler's whole spiel about the master race and the worry to keep it pure from Jews led to the holocast. It is the superiority, the meritoriousness of birth, which excuses the discrimination and crimes against others for they are not deserving for they have no standing.

Gaz
05-12-2001, 09:45 AM
So discrimination based solely on race is not racism?

xoxo~
Gaz
Looking for a definition.

Gaz
05-12-2001, 09:51 AM
Of course all discrimination is not racism.

Discrimination on the basis of age is "ageism." Discrimination on the basis of sex is "sexism." Discrimination on the basis of weight would be "weightism," I guess. Discrimination of the basis of education might be called "eliteism." Discrimination on the basis of social class is "classism" [or Hinduism].

But discrimination on the basis of race is not racism?

How convenient.

xoxo~
Gaz
Wondering how many other special exceptions are allowed.

Gaz
05-12-2001, 09:58 AM
Refusing a position to the most qualified applicant because he is 70 years old is discrimination called ageism. That is bad.

Refusing a position to the most qualified applicant because she is a woman is discrimination called sexism. That is bad.

Refusing a position to the most qualified applicant because he is Hispanic is discrimination called racism. That is bad.

Refusing a position to the most qualified applicant because he is white is discrimination called Affirmative Action. That is okay.

Even though the decision was made entirely based on his race, it is not racism in this case? It is okay to discriminate as long as you do not feel "superior?"

Are you really going to defend that standard?

xoxo~
Gaz
Interested to hear this justification.

oleman47
05-12-2001, 10:05 AM
once heard a prosecutor who had put an innocent person in jail and after his innocence was established argued that "we should not go around letting criminals out of jail".

You can be a racist and not discriminate for fear of reprisal. You can discriminate and not be a racist, just stupid. Discrimination is an indication of racism, possibly a result of racism, but racism is much broader and more inclusive of many concepts and actions, than just discrimination.
This would be a great example for boolean rings. As you later said. People are not just scum they are also good. Here the concept people is bigger than just a single, or even broad multiples of their possible actions.
So it is with racism. Thus any attempt to make the case for reverse racism based on restricted definition of discrimination is logically flawed and in actual life is a cruel misrepresentation of what is going on.

Gaz
05-12-2001, 10:15 AM
oleman47-

Discrimination does not have to be an outgrowth of racism.

A landlord might discriminate against college students because he had a bad experience with drunken parties. A taxi driver might discriminate against men in business suits because he thinks they are bad tippers. A manager might discriminate against a man because his current staff is all female and he does not want the distraction. A restaurant owner might discriminate against a guy wearing a Raiders tee shirt because he thinks they are all criminal wannabees.

And a company might discriminate against a worker because of his/her race.

Regardless of the race, it is a discrimination based on race and that is racism.

You can dress it up in a good cause, you can cite historical precedent of prior discrimination in the other direction and you can try to re-define the term to make this case acceptable, but it is still blatant racism.

xoxo~
Gaz
Probably would side with the restaurant owner on this one.

oleman47
05-12-2001, 10:29 AM
Cpmpetely agree that discrimination can occur for many reasons which I alluded to, stupidity being one. Just like racism there is more in the concept of discrimination than racism but there is an intersection of concepts. Discrimination does not result in racism, but racism often results in discrimination, as I stated.

Blacks per capita commit more crimes.

I won't hire a black for it is more likely to be a criminal.

I am against welfare to those who don't work.

Those who can't work or get welfare tend to commit crimes.

All of the above statements can be true and put in a certain order give a circular argument which in the premise is fact but leads back to itself.

Gaz
05-12-2001, 10:39 AM
"If two equally-qualified candidates apply for the same job, I will hire the white one."

Discrimination? Yes.
Racism? Yes.

"If two equally-qualified candidates apply for the same job, I will hire the black one."

Discrimination? Yes.
Racism? Yes. But it is okay because it is called Affirmative Action?

Affirmative Action says it is okay to discriminate in favor of a black man [or Hispanic woman or Nordic hermaphrodite].

If you want to eliminate discrimination, you have to apply the rules equally in ALL cases. Discrimination is discrimination, regardless of your motives. If you discriminate on the basis of race, that is racist discrimination. Affirmative Action discriminates on the basis of race.

But that is different…

xoxo~
Gaz
Still illustrating the double standard.

oleman47
05-12-2001, 11:08 AM
One of the other circular arguments.
Its not racism it is just diverse cultures. Culturism. If they were like our culture then they would be accepted.

When they attempt to join the culture through affirmative action the culturists cry foul. Now not that way, do your own thing. Of course, their own thing is their culture.

Gaz
05-12-2001, 11:26 AM
When they attempt to join the culture through affirmative action

Nope.

Affirmative Action has nothing to do with “joining a culture.” That is bogus.

You can join any one of my “cultures” by reading comics or bowling or cheering for the Chiefs or touring Victorian houses.

Affirmative Action is about granting special privilege to a specific group based on race, sexual preference, physical disability, or whatever the disadvantaged group du jour happens to be.

Discrimination solely on the basis of race is racism. Affirmative Action is discrimination solely on the basis of race. You do the math.

xoxo~
Gaz
Welcomes all comers to his culture.

oleman47
05-12-2001, 12:04 PM
Gaz
I am really not into the politics of the affiirmative action debate one way or the other.

I saw first hand for many decades what seperate but equal really meant, states rights, and all the other little nice sounding slogans defending the freedom to be racist and discriminate.

We are only a few years into trying to address the damage that has been done. And the damage is blamed on the victim. Most of the arguments I hear against affirmative action is the same old misdirection of the past. It is unfair to whites to help blacks. Reverse discrimination is a joke. Because it isolates the act from the context of history and its goals.

Another circular

The Confederate flag is not a racist symbol, it represents a Southern Heritage

The Southern Heritage is the Civil War.

What was the Civil War about?

States Rights

States rights about what.

Slavery

47mack
05-12-2001, 12:35 PM
Originally posted by Brock Landers
Is that Dennis Hopper line from "Blue Velvet"?

Of course

What a classic, huh?

47mack
05-12-2001, 12:56 PM
Originally posted by Cody Goldizen
I am totally against racism. WE ALL are created equal. Everyone is different, but we are all people, and everyone should be treated the same.

Its a shame that racism is still an issue. But it is in this messed up world.

CG

will always be against racism

I would like to agree, but is is hard to. Racism isn't as bad as people and the press would like to think it is. The problem is that crime sometimes happens by one race to the other...automatically making it racism. That is horse$hit. Just because a white man kills a black man doesn't mean he is racist...and the same goes for the other way around. Just because a white police officer happens to arrest a black criminal, doesn't mean he is racist nor is he profiling.

Prime example....here in Houston, a black man tried to rob a Dillards store in a wealthy area of the city. The security, which consisted of white off duty Houston Police Officers, caught the guy. The man proceeds to put up a fight, even begins to bang is own head on the concrete. The security officers hog tie the man to get him under control. A couple days later the man dies in the hospital...believed to be a heart attack. The black groups here in Houston start a boycott of the Dillards store saying they are racist towards black customers and won't hire black employees. HORSE$HIT!!!

Now, how does a man trying to rob a store turn into the store is racist towards black people?

Answer....because he was black and the officers were white. It also didn't help that the press gave the black organization all the airtime they wanted. They even went as low as to tell the viewers on the 6 and 10 o'clock news exactly what time to be at Dillards for the protest. WOW!

Racism....sure it exists, but it is far from being as bad as minorities want it to be.

Gaz
05-12-2001, 01:38 PM
oleman47-

Most of the arguments I hear against affirmative action is the same old misdirection of the past.

I have given you my reason for opposing Affirmative Action. It is discrimination. Plain and simple. No misdirection. No smoke. No mirrors. Just a fundamental insistence that all people be treated equally.

It sounds like discrimination is okay with you as long as it is discrimination against whites. Your justification for that is that whites wronged other races in the past, therefore it is okay to wrong whites now. That is unacceptable.

You do not redress those wrongs by punishing the descendents of the wrongdoers. Simply do not allow it to exist anymore. Seek out discrimination, haul it into the light and punish those who use race, sex, or any other irrelevant parameter as the criteria for hiring, housing, lending, so forth.

Instead, you advocate more discrimination.

ALL discrimination is bad, not just that aimed at blacks or Orientals or outback aborigines.

Discrimination is bad no matter who the victim is, or what color his skin is or what religion he espouses or what gender he likes to have sex with. You cannot excuse it by saying “he did it first.”

Affirmative Action is discrimination. It is not “reverse” discrimination or “retrograde” discrimination or “payback” discrimination. It is simply discrimination.

xoxo~
Gaz
Still waiting for a credible justification of the double standard that is Affirmative Action.

Luzap
05-12-2001, 01:41 PM
Outstanding post Gaz...

Luz
it's a simple concept...

Gaz
05-12-2001, 01:47 PM
Thank you, Luz.

xoxo~
Gaz
Blushing.

KCWolfman
05-12-2001, 01:59 PM
<B>ANY</b> form of racism based hiring is unacceptable, period.

Only a fascist would see otherwise. And only a devious fascist would attempt to use Adolph Hitler as an example of bad racism while defending his own as good.

Zebedee DuBois
05-12-2001, 02:11 PM
Originally posted by Gaz
"If two equally-qualified candidates apply for the same job, I will hire the white one."

Discrimination? Yes.
Racism? Yes.

"If two equally-qualified candidates apply for the same job, I will hire the black one."

Discrimination? Yes.
Racism? Yes. But it is okay because it is called Affirmative Action?

The problem being people tend to unconciously think that the person most like themselves is the better qualified candidate. I agreed that AA is discriminatory, and I understand that because the basis of the discrimination is race, that you want to call it racism. My Westers' defines racism as: "A belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race." Based on this I think that discrimination on basis of race is not alway racism as defined above. AA discrimination is not about "inherent superiority" but about increased opportunity for members of that race.
I agree that AA is an unfair practice, but I think it is a tool that has needed to be employed. Say you have a tower (say of Pisa) and forces have been steadily been pushing on one side so as to cause it to be "out of whack", and you desired in your dreams of a perfect tower, that it be perfectly "in whack". In your perfect world the forces on both sides of the tower would be equal. But equal forces on either side will not return the tower to pefect perpendicularity. You have to push from the other side for a while. Let me be clear that my opinion is that AA should be phased out. It is a tool that was necessary, but not to be used permanently.

I think the point you made comparing AA to the KKK got to me a little. My grandfather (1st generation american) was threatened on his farm in Oklahoma by the KKK. I was up for a promotion where AA came into play. ...but I did not feel the need to take my family into the fields for the night for fear of their lives as my gandfather did. I do not see these ideas (KKK and AA) as equal.

AustinChief
05-12-2001, 02:12 PM
One thing that hasn't really been addressed...


Doesn't anyone see Affirmative Action as demeaning to minorities? I sure as heck wouldn't want a job if I wasn't the most qualified person, but instead was being hired as a "token" whatever.

The same thing was observed in California with Police and Fire Departments... but this time it was the inability to fill their quota for female recruits. The problem was that the physical standard was too demanding and most didn't qualify based on height and strength requirements.

So of course their response was to lower the standards.
One female activist actually stated that it wasn't important that a firewomyn be able to actually <b>carry</b> a person from a second story building to safety... instead she offered that they could <b>drag</b> the person to safety... (down the stairs and all!!!)

If we keep lowering standards to "help" out special groups... we'll end up as backwards as Europe ;)

--Kyle

KCWolfman
05-12-2001, 02:21 PM
Zee - While the KKK and AA both use different methods, they both achieve the same results - biased forced infused cultures based on color of skin. The KKK uses physical force, AA uses legal force.

I also disagree on your equating candidates. I never take the color of skin into account when I interview potential employees. I have a staff of 20-23 depending on the time of year. I work in midtown KC. I currently have 5 white, 13 black, one black asian, and 3 hispanic employees. I believe that is probably pretty close to the percentage of population in the KC area.

stevieray
05-12-2001, 02:21 PM
And all races have racists. It's name is really pride. Man has been putting himself above others since the beginning of time.

Frazod
05-12-2001, 02:25 PM
Good point about the firemen (or firewomen, as it were). Some people just aren't qualified to do some jobs, and that's just the way it is.

Is a man in a wheelchair qualified to work construction? NO.

Is a 90 pound woman qualified to work hauling 100 bags of concrete? NO.

My personal experience story for the day with an unqualified government worker: several years ago, I filed for unemployment - the only time I had to do so. I went down to the unemployment office knowing nothing about what would happen next. Anyway, the government worker I talked to was severelly handicapped and had a terrible speech impediment. I could barely understand anything he was saying, but the impression I came away with was go home, the check will be in the mail. I repeated this to him, and he nodded in agreement. So I went home. A couple of weeks went by, and no check showed up, so I went back to ask why. This time (and it took awhile) I held out for one of the few people there who seemed to actually have a grasp of the English language and speaking it (and a f#cking clue, for that matter). He told me - big surprise - that I had to fill out a form, send it in, and then get the check! OOPS. So from that point, I would have had to wait another couple of weeks. This was very, very bad.

When I finally found a job (a couple of days later) I had $5.00 left to my name. Never got a dime from unemployment. I've sure paid a lot for other people to get unemployment, though.

Now, I understand this handicapped guy has a right to a job - BUT COMMUNICATING IMPORTANT LIFE INFORMATION TO PEOPLE WHEN HE CAN BARELY SPEAK? That's bullsh!t! This idiot was as utterly unqualified to work with the public as I am to be a friggin ballerina.

Gaz
05-12-2001, 02:25 PM
Zebedee DuBois-

The KKK and AA both discriminate on the basis of race. Please do not take that as an apology or excuse for the KKK. Both are reprehensible to me.

I understand that you do not see AA as racist even though you concede that it is discrimination and that it is based on race. I think that is splitting of semantic hairs. The fact that is discrimination in favor of a specific race cuts no ice with me. That is still a decision made solely on the basis of race. That is racist.

The reason for it is immaterial to me, as I do not believe there is ever an acceptable justification for discrimination. The most qualified person gets the job, loan, house, apartment, so forth.

Regardless of the sins perpetrated in the past, you are not going to sell me on the concept that discrimination is okay for this group, but not for that group. Apply the rules equally across the board. No special favors, no set asides, no quotas. No discrimination of any kind, not even “good” discrimination.

xoxo~
Gaz
Does not believe in “good” discrimination.

KCWolfman
05-12-2001, 02:27 PM
*Hates Gaz's eloquence after my own lame thoughts on the same subject*

Knowing I am not an equal candidate for a speech job against Gaz.

But betting I can beat him in any insult job offered.
(tic)

Gaz
05-12-2001, 02:31 PM
KCWolfman-

I can juggle, too.

xoxo~
Gaz
New-Age Übermensch.

KCWolfman
05-12-2001, 02:33 PM
Only Gaz could get away with the word Ubermensch on a topic about racism and still come out clean.

AustinChief
05-12-2001, 02:33 PM
fraz,

The funniest part about the firewomyn fiasco was that the people MOST upset about the lowering of the standards were the firewomen who DID qualify on the MUCH harder standards of the past.

--Kyle

Zebedee DuBois
05-12-2001, 02:34 PM
Perhaps we must agree that we disagree.

One last metaphor. You have an arm that is wounded by a bullet (past racial discrimination). What do you do? 1.) remove the bullet. and 2.) apply bandages and medicine (AA).
When the wound is healed, you quit applying medical care.

keg in kc
05-12-2001, 02:34 PM
I think the difficulty in the KKK v AA argument is the fact that the KKK has a long history of violence and criminal activity. You're really arguing apples and oranges here, IMHO, and might be better served to find another group to associate with AA. I do agree that AA is racist and I am opposed to it in the form we see it, but I do not agree that it is in any way comparable to the level of pure hatred and legacy of violence wraught by the KKK.

(That would be like comparing Chiefs followers to Raider fan in making an argument that all NFL fans are idiots... ;))

Maybe discussing how AA is racist in its own right is enough, and there's no real need to make the "clan" part of the equation...

Just my humble opinion, in trying to keep the issue from getting clouded.

KCWolfman
05-12-2001, 02:36 PM
Zee - The problem with your analogy is that their are much too many doctors that will decide on when the wound is healed, and all with a different time frame and expected recoupment.

Time alone is the healer of all wounds.

Gaz
05-12-2001, 02:41 PM
Zebedee DuBois-

However, I must take issue with your analogy.

You have a wound that is injured by a bullet [racial discrimination]. First you remove the bullet [put an end to the discrimination], clean the wound [punish the discriminators], make it clear to all that further shootings will be dealt with in a similar manner [public awareness] and then you strengthen the arm to help it recover from the damage [education].

Shooting someone else [Affirmative Action] is hardly a solution to the problem, is it?

That, IMO, is a better analogy for the situation.

xoxo~
Gaz
Does not want to be shot for someone else’s sins.

Zebedee DuBois
05-12-2001, 02:52 PM
I think we agree more than disagree.

Must head in to inner Doodah to see my kids perform in the River Festival. I'll be turning from pasty white to a brilliant Chiefs red by evening.

Go Chiefs! (something we can all agree on!)

Gaz
05-12-2001, 02:54 PM
Another harsh day at the war plant...

Mrs. Gaz and I are off to enjoy a picnic and this lovely weather.

Go Chiefs! (something we can all agree on!)

Amen and goodbye, y'all.

xoxo~
Gaz
Zoomin'

NaptownChief
05-12-2001, 09:26 PM
Speaking of the media creating racial issues and gross double standards...

I doubt a single one of you heard a word about this issue that happen last Saturday night here in Indianapolis...A guy that I worked with was out at the bar, got all liquored up...He gave his keys to a friend so that he wouldn't end up driving home drunk...Later that night he got separated from his friend and walked home without his keys...To get into his apartment without his keys he had to go through the window. A neighbor saw him go through the window and called the police. About 30 mins later the guy is asleep in his bed when the police show up...They see the open window and break into the apartment. The guy hears someone break into his apartment and (allegedly)grabs a hunting knife that he has beside his bed. The police officer shot him four times and killed him on the spot...

The guy I worked with was white. One of the cops were black. He was shot and killed in his own apartment all because he was doing the right thing and not drinking and driving....

Can you imagine if you reversed those skin colors? The City of Indianapolis would have been burnt to the ground...Every single one of you would have heard all about this "horrific racial" incident...Instead, it barely got coverage in our own city....

I for one suspect that they shot and killed him...Realized their mistake and then planted the hunting knife on him to desperately attempt to validate their story....

I don't really think you need to shot a person with a hunting knife four times to halt or slow him down....

Obviously this was just a tragic accident and had nothing to do with race, but if the shoe was on the other foot their would be nothing left of this city except ashes after the national media did everything in their power to ignite the black community....

DRfroggE
05-12-2001, 09:53 PM
I don't think racism is good. All societys have racist individuals, but I don't like racist people.

47mack
05-13-2001, 04:45 AM
jl80

Interesting story. It sounds very familiar from the other standpoint.

Just another example of how the press controls this country.

oleman47
05-13-2001, 09:03 AM
On the politics of affirmative action.

I think the Jesse Helms ad and similar arguments in the political arena are part of the "southern strategy", the appeal to racists for votes.

The attempt is to narrow the discussion to whites losing opportunity versus unqualified blacks. Inferior if you will.

The larger argument is much like killing someones father, sparing you, then saying since I did not kill you, I am no longer responsible for my actions. Leave me alone.

Thus, you have a larger picture and a narrower picture.

NaptownChief
05-13-2001, 10:38 AM
Oleman,

You have been arguing you side of this for many post and despite some very good arguments against your opinion you haven't swayed in the slightest so I am sure that nothing any of us could say will change that....But since we are using analogies, let me throw one out...

Your point is that because people of white skin color have unfairly treated many people of black skin color in the past that it is still the responsibility of whites who had nothing to do with the wrong doing to pay damages to blacks who for the most part weren't the ones who were the victims...

How bout this....If a black gang banger were to kill some innocent white kids walking down the street for no other reason than skin color, should every person in the white community have the right to go to any and all law abiding black people and demand reparations? Since they share the same skin color as the gang banger does that somehow make them responsible? Under your theory it does....Do they owe me reparations even though those white kids that were senselessly murdered weren't my own and for that matter I probably didn't even know them? Under your theory they do....

Racial issues have no chance of disappearing as long as we have a government that mandates people be treated differently because of gender and skin color...Crutches are to help aid for weakness...As long as we keep giving people crutches to function then we will continue to send the message to everyone that they are a weaker class or gender and they can't function without them....That is wrong, they aren't a weaker class or gender and the government needs to quit treating them as such....

oleman47
05-13-2001, 11:21 AM
Ji80
What you and others using the past is over argument is wrong in two ways.
A. There still is racism being practiced.
B. There has been actual damage.

47mack
05-13-2001, 11:25 AM
oleman

So when will my ancestor's faults finally be re-paid and fininshed?

NaptownChief
05-13-2001, 11:25 AM
Oleman,

There is still gang bangers killing white people everyday.

There is actual damage....

oleman47
05-13-2001, 11:51 AM
Ji80
Just a black killing a white or vice versa is not a hate crime. And as for killing, the law is fairly expicit on this with or without a hate crime bill. Otside of cops, most killing is not racial regradless of the race doing the killing.

Somehow you think I am for someone paying, or some sort of revenge, or reparation. Whatever. No.

In my example if you kill the father you should help the children to get established. Some affirmative action on your part.

NaptownChief
05-13-2001, 11:55 AM
In your example you are paying reparations to the children that are directly involved....With AA you are paying blanket repartations based on skin color whether they were involved or not...Which mirror images my example...

47mack
05-13-2001, 12:02 PM
Originally posted by oleman47
Ji80
Just a black killing a white or vice versa is not a hate crime.

Unfortunately, the press sees any "white killing a black" as a hate crime.

chieffanphil
05-13-2001, 02:04 PM
why are there hate crime laws anyway ? A murder is a murder either way it goes , the punishment should be same regardless . Why should there be a law for the killing of a black or gay man , isn't it just as bad if someone kills a white man who works at a 7-11 store in the process of robbing him ? When you take a life , unless it is an accident or unless you are defending yourself or others then it is murder is it not . When a person comes up for a promotion if he or she deserves the job they should get it not because they are male or female , black or white , gay or straight , but because they are the best .

NaptownChief
05-13-2001, 03:00 PM
The reality is that when you intentionally kill someone for any other reason than self-defense you can rest assured that the person is doing it out of hate...Whether it is out of hate for the particular person or out of hate for mankind, regardless it is done out of hate...There absolutely should be no difference...But we live in a society that we are all created equal and have equal opportunity except for when it is convenient to say otherwise...People like Oleman spend a lot of their time talking out of both sides of their mouth fighting for causes such as AA and hate crime law...I am sure many of them do with good intentions and often times it comes from the heart, but most of the judgement comes from emotion and not logic....

It is ridiculous that we live in a country that still legislates based on color but the whole political correctness movement has gotten so out of control that it has become a emotional, illogical monster that is very tough to stop...

oleman47
05-13-2001, 03:07 PM
you can rest assurred if I am for a hate crimes law I will say so, you need not infer any belief system to me other than what I will most willing and as forcibly as I can expouse.

aturnis
05-14-2001, 10:22 AM
Whats in color?

Lightning Rod
05-14-2001, 10:49 AM
The entire reparation concept is ludicrous. Were the Native Americans done wrong? Of course should we give North America Back? What if I’m ¼ Native American? Should I cut off my Legs and leave them here while shipping my other parts back to Scotland, England and Germany? If I can prove some of my ancestors were killed because “they” thought slavery was immoral am I due compensation? Who from? The exception to this that I can think of would be the Japanese American citizens still living that were rounded up on the West Coast during WWII. They have IMO a legitimate case.

In regards to hate crimes- if someone kills a loved one of mine it makes no difference what their motivation was.