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Carlota69
08-24-2007, 09:52 AM
Interesting take on the Vick situation. I still despise Vick, but she has got a great point.


Beat a Woman? Play On! Beat a Dog? You're Gone
By Sandra Kobrin

National Football League superstar Michael Vick is in trouble, serious trouble. Federal prosecutors charged the Atlanta Falcons' quarterback with animal abuse for his role as the alleged leader of a dog-fighting ring and, after denying it for months, Vick pleaded guilty on Monday. He faces stiff sentencing.

He's in big trouble with the NFL too, which has said he might never play professionally again. According to Gene Upshaw, executive director of the NFL's Player Association, "the practice of dog-fighting is offensive and completely unacceptable."

I just wish the NFL had the same outrage toward spousal abuse and other forms of domestic violence. But they don't. Not by a long shot.

Scores of NFL players as well as players from the National Basketball Association and Major League Baseball have been convicted of domestic abuse, yet they play on with no fear of losing their careers. Most pay small fines, if that, and are back on the field immediately.

The message is clear. Beat a woman? Play on. Beat a dog? You're gone.

What could possibly account for this bizarre situation?

Part of it is that it's the dog days of August -- the notoriously silly season for news -- so the Vick story has attracted tremendous press attention. But it's been all over TV as well during the past four months, since Vick's indictment in April.

Animal Lobby Attacks

The anti-animal abuse lobby, meanwhile, is going after Vick with all four paws.

PETA, People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals, which received almost $30 million in contributions last year, according to its Web site, and other animal rights organizations are demanding a boycott of companies that continue to sponsor Vick and are bombarding the NFL with letters demanding a no-tolerance policy when it comes to cruelty to animals by football players.

On blogs, the outrage continues on sackvick.net and other sites, with comments like "lets give #7, 7 to life," or "lets make Michael Vick into dog food."

A cottage industry of anti-Vick merchandise is out there. You can buy a chew toy for your dog in with a likeness of Vick, a "hang Vick" hat or even an eye-for-eye justice T-shirt that says "Stick Vick in the Pit."

Vick has already lost most of his sponsorship deals worth millions of dollars and he deserves to lose a whole lot more.

But the disproportionate punishment of Vick -- while athletes who commit violence against women are let off the hook -- has to be wondered at.

Might it be that domestic violence and spousal abuse is so pervasive in sports that it's simply too costly for leagues to suspend so many men? What would happen after all if those poor dear teams couldn't fill their rosters?

Numbers Are Astounding

The number of athletes arrested for domestic violence or spousal abuse is astounding.

A three-year study published in 1995 by researchers at Northwestern University found that while male student-athletes are 3 percent of the population, they represent 19 percent of sexual assault perpetrators and 35 percent of domestic violence perpetrators.

There are even Web site chronicles that treat the steady stream of offenders as if it were a joke. Check out badjocks.com or playersbehavingbadly.com. Maybe then again, don't. It's enough to make you sick.

Roger Goodell, the new NFL commissioner, has made it his mandate to crack down on athletes who misbehave.

In April Goodell introduced a new conduct policy that stiffens penalties and holds franchises responsible when their players get into trouble.

Just recently Goodell suspended the Tennessee Titans' troubled player Adam "Pacman" Jones for the 2007 season.

Jones had been arrested five times since he was drafted by the NFL in 2005 and has been involved in 11 separate police investigations. Most recently, during what amounted to a brawl at a strip club, he grabbed a stripper and banged her head into the ground. He will not be paid during his suspension and must apply for reinstatement.

Spousal Abuse Gets a Pass

But no one has been suspended in the NFL for spouse abuse or domestic violence, even though they've been arrested and convicted.

The NFL Players Association's Upshaw said in a statement: "We believe the criminal conduct to which Mr. Vick has pled guilty today cannot be condoned under any circumstances."

I say the NFL's indifference to the acts of domestic violence by other players cannot be condoned under any circumstances.

Major League Baseball, meanwhile, isn't any better in punishing spousal abusers.

Last summer Philadelphia Phillies' pitcher Brett Myers assaulted his wife on a public Boston street and was charged with assault and battery. Major League Baseball did not penalize him, shrugging it off as an off-field incident. Are they saying a player needs to abuse his spouse during a game to get sanctioned? If so, just how does that work?

Don't expect anything better from the National Basketball Association.

Jason Kidd of the NBA's New Jersey Nets pleaded guilty to spousal abuse in 2001.

Was he punished by the NBA? No.

The Sacramento Kings' Ron Artest was suspended last season for 72 games for fighting in the stands. In March he was arrested for domestic violence. For that he got what amounted to a hand slap; an immediate two-game suspension and a $600 fine for a player who makes several million a year.

Artest pled no contest to the domestic violence charge and was sentenced 100 hours of community service, a 10-day work project and mandated extensive counseling. The NBA did nothing here too. Maybe if he had committed the transgression on national TV -- as with the fan brawl -- more would have happened.

Maybe if he'd hurt a dog he would have been benched for the season.

Chief Chief
08-24-2007, 09:56 AM
Well, all I've got to say is..

There are bitches, and then there are BITCHES!!

wutamess
08-24-2007, 09:58 AM
Maybe if these journalist/columnist had lives They'd stop comparing apple's to oranges and realize you probably wouldn't get fined from a normal job for something as personal as domestic abuse charges.

Really reaching here :rolleyes:

HonestChieffan
08-24-2007, 10:01 AM
Sad....a person should be fired in both cases.

Arrowhead Pride
08-24-2007, 10:02 AM
Well Vick didn't "beat on" dogs for one. He electrocuted and killed them. Very different.

I can understand why "beat" works for her column. It just isn't true though.

wutamess
08-24-2007, 10:02 AM
Sad....a person should be fired in both cases.

That's dumb.
You have no idea what the circumstances are of domestic abuse.
You know the circumstances of dogfighting or killing a dog.

Extra Point
08-24-2007, 10:03 AM
Good post. Goodell is making progress in bringing back class in the NFL. The NFL is our national pastime, and cleaning it up by levying fines and suspensions, for on- and off-field behavior, will do a lot more in athletes setting good examples for kids. I like what Herm's doing, too, in promoting Chiefs' class. We're not perfect, but the banners showing what our players do for the community, makes me more proud to be a Chiefs fan.

Carlota69
08-24-2007, 10:04 AM
Well Vick didn't "beat on" dogs for one. He electrocuted and killed them. Very different.

I can understand why "beat" works for her column. It just isn't true though.

Well, according to the indictment, he did slam the dogs into the gorund. Thats was one of hte ways they tortured the dogs.

And whose to say a domestic abuser doesnt torture their spouse with more than their fists?

HonestChieffan
08-24-2007, 10:04 AM
So there are times when domestic abuse is cool?

What?

ENDelt260
08-24-2007, 10:06 AM
Dogs don't talk back.

chagrin
08-24-2007, 10:07 AM
Abuse on anyone/anything is a crime.

Murder and brutalization of animals, i.e. electrocuting, drowning, shooting etc. FOR ENTERTAINMENT doesn't compare to a shove.

Of course, a beat down on a woman should also get a guy jail time of some sort.

wutamess
08-24-2007, 10:08 AM
So there are times when domestic abuse is cool?

What?

I knew you'd take it there.

No there's never a reason to beat a spouse (not just a woman but a male spouse either). having said that...

Exhibit A your honor:
You and your wife are walking to your car after a night on the town... she spots you looking at another chicks ass and starts to go ff on you. You push her off but in the process push her too hard to where she fell and hit her head or face on a nearby car.

She claims you beat the shit out of her.

SHOULD YOU BE FIRED?

On the other hand...
Exhibit B your honor:
You and your wife are walking to your car after a night off your Pit Bulls losing their matches for the night... Witnesses spot you dragging your Pit's home by your car as you their punishment.

SHOULD YOU BE FIRED?

chagrin
08-24-2007, 10:08 AM
The system needs to be reconfigured for sure.

Carlota69
08-24-2007, 10:10 AM
So there are times when domestic abuse is cool?

What?

Never, but I think what that poster is saying is...sometimes couples like to fight and then make up. Its a sick dynamic where the woman is just as involved and they both get off on the chaos. Then of course, the big guy gets in trouble and she looks like the victim. Its a game these idiots play. I know a couple like that. Its gross. In some cases, you dont know the dynamics. regardless, its so not cool.

HonestChieffan
08-24-2007, 10:11 AM
Justifiable abuse....an approach we need to see.

To your point...I would not and could not shove my wife...thats just wrong.

wutamess
08-24-2007, 10:12 AM
Justifiable abuse....an approach we need to see.

To your point...I would not and could not shove my wife...thats just wrong.

I don't give a shit about what you would/could do to your wife.
It happens.
Should the perp be fired?

Braincase
08-24-2007, 10:14 AM
I'll go completely medievel if anyone lays an unkind hand on Carlotta.

HonestChieffan
08-24-2007, 10:19 AM
If he worked for me and it was abuse...you can bet your ass. If its what you described, no, but he would go under the gun and Id fire his ass in a heartbeat if it happened again.

Cochise
08-24-2007, 10:21 AM
It would be a good comparison if he had executed a long line of girlfriends the first time they underwhelmed him at something.

wutamess
08-24-2007, 10:23 AM
If he worked for me and it was abuse...you can bet your ass. If its what you described, no, but he would go under the gun and Id fire his ass in a heartbeat if it happened again.

That's my point. You don't know the circumstances.
And since most cases are the woman against the man's word and the systems sides with the woman. The man can be easily screwed.

Just leave it alone there's no way that can be compared to something as blatant as killing a dog or dogfighting.

HonestChieffan
08-24-2007, 10:24 AM
So he can tell all his buds he got screwed and fired.

Baby Lee
08-24-2007, 10:24 AM
If the late Johnnie Cochran taught us anything, it's that rhyming distortions of the issues are very effective.

Wile_E_Coyote
08-24-2007, 10:42 AM
How about we take bets on wife beating? I got $10 that says Warren Moon slaps the shit out of his wife if she doesn't polish his golf clubs by Saturday

Mr. Kotter
08-24-2007, 10:44 AM
Somebody should slap this writer-Ho....

:rolleyes:

Mr. Laz
08-24-2007, 10:45 AM
i'm pretty sure if a NFL player put a woman in a rape cage, used electro shock,beat them and then drown them they wouldn't be playing anymore.

memyselfI
08-24-2007, 10:59 AM
As a woman, I find this argument to be ridiculous and simplistic. Everyone sick of the NFL looking the other way while it's players live above the law should be rejoicing that Michael Vick has been held to a higher standard. Correction, ANY standard.

To advocate injustice because of previous injustice is wrong. I look to Michael Vick as a turning point. If the writer wants to make the point AFTER Vick then they'd be justified in doing so. But to compare his stiff punishment (by society, Lindsay, Nicole Ritchey and OJ standards) to previous injustices is a waste of time. Michael Vick's of the past would not have suffered punishment for their deeds. See OJ. If a future OJ is allowed to walk after Michael Vick than the writer has a valid point but I am hopeful that will not happen.

There is a sea change happening here and hopefully Michael Vick is leading the way. Hopefully whatever forces bullied, cajoled, and forced Michael Vick into any sort of accountability will be the same forces that will force future Vick's into doing the same until one day there is some level of accountability for celebs and athletes.

One other point regarding the spouse abuse...

if any of those athlete's spouses live in locked cages then the writer's point is valid. They were unable to be free and had no recourse other than to suffer at the hands of their spouse. If that is true, then the writer has a a valid point. If not, then unlike the dogs, there are two parties responsible for what is happening in that marriage. The women married to those abusers are victims but unlike the dogs they are not HELPLESS victims.

Baby Lee
08-24-2007, 11:02 AM
Michael Vick's of the past would not have suffered punishment for their deeds. See OJ.
Yeah, I couldn't believe it when the Bills didn't cut him.

wutamess
08-24-2007, 11:07 AM
And there she (this thread) goes.
26-100 in less than an hour.
NICE!

ksushark
08-24-2007, 11:31 AM
"I just wish the NFL had the same outrage toward spousal abuse and other forms of domestic violence. But they don't. Not by a long shot."

So I can't get to badjocks.com from here but I took the writer's advice and went to playersbehavingbadly.com and the only clip I found about an NFL player that was currently not on suspension was Chad Johnson racing a horse. While it was a stupid attempt for media attention it was a far cry from domestic violence. So what did that have to do with Vick, domestic violence or the lenient NFL policy?

IIRC the Pacman Jones, etc. suspensions were the result of a recently implemented policy to help clean up the NFL's image. How does a 3 yr. study from 1995 prove that the NFL's current policy does not treat spousal abuse on the same level or above other infractions?

I think what Vick did was deplorable but the public outcry over the situation has been comical... and I think I understand the point the writer is trying to make but she did a poor job of it.

HonestChieffan
08-24-2007, 11:38 AM
I got her point, yours was?

ksushark
08-24-2007, 11:48 AM
My point was she said that the NFL doesn't show the same outrage towards domestic violence yet I don't see anything in the article that actually backs up that statement.

savchief
08-24-2007, 12:17 PM
Link?

RedNeckRaider
08-24-2007, 12:25 PM
My point was she said that the NFL doesn't show the same outrage towards domestic violence yet I don't see anything in the article that actually backs up that statement.
Larry Johnson has a well noted history of beating women, yet he is cheered as a hero. The NFL has turned a blind eye to this type of abuse for years.

meStevo
08-24-2007, 12:32 PM
I'd like to see someone get away with killing 6-8 women, and betting on women fighting to the death.

jjchieffan
08-24-2007, 12:39 PM
Justifiable abuse....an approach we need to see.

To your point...I would not and could not shove my wife...thats just wrong.

I used to agree with you, never under any circumstances, raise a hand to your wife, until a few years ago. My wife, (who outweighs me by about 80 lbs), suddenly started slapping me when we argued. I put up with it for a couple of weeks. I started warning her to stop, or I would slap her back. She continued, and one day she slapped me, and I slapped her back, hard. She went berzerk. She couldn't believe I hit her. I literally had to wrestle her to the ground and pin her to calm her down. When I let her up, she went crying to her mama, and the whole family blamed me. She did not call the police, fortunately, but had she, I am sure I would have been arrested. Just saying, sometimes you need to hear both sides.
BTW... she has NEVER slapped me again.

Lono
08-24-2007, 12:45 PM
I in no way think what Vick did is right, but some of you are saying dont compare beating dogs to beating women. That is fine, however you cant come back and use the argument about someone killing 6-9 women. I personally hold humans lives more dear than animals. Should he get in trouble for what he did yes. But its a freaking dog, not a human. We send rapest to prison for less time than vick will get and that is sad.

meStevo
08-24-2007, 12:49 PM
If the whole thing he was involved in was just 6-8 dogs I'd agree, but he was doing this for 5 years, and all we REALLY know about are a few of the fights over that 5 years, and some of the more recent testing and killing of animals.

There's a much higher standard in the NFL right now for anything, I'd like to see someone get away with doing anything to a woman at this point, it just isn't going to happen.

Carlota69
08-24-2007, 12:50 PM
As a woman, I find this argument to be ridiculous and simplistic. Everyone sick of the NFL looking the other way while it's players live above the law should be rejoicing that Michael Vick has been held to a higher standard. Correction, ANY standard.

To advocate injustice because of previous injustice is wrong. I look to Michael Vick as a turning point. If the writer wants to make the point AFTER Vick then they'd be justified in doing so. But to compare his stiff punishment (by society, Lindsay, Nicole Ritchey and OJ standards) to previous injustices is a waste of time. Michael Vick's of the past would not have suffered punishment for their deeds. See OJ. If a future OJ is allowed to walk after Michael Vick than the writer has a valid point but I am hopeful that will not happen.

There is a sea change happening here and hopefully Michael Vick is leading the way. Hopefully whatever forces bullied, cajoled, and forced Michael Vick into any sort of accountability will be the same forces that will force future Vick's into doing the same until one day there is some level of accountability for celebs and athletes.

One other point regarding the spouse abuse...

if any of those athlete's spouses live in locked cages then the writer's point is valid. They were unable to be free and had no recourse other than to suffer at the hands of their spouse. If that is true, then the writer has a a valid point. If not, then unlike the dogs, there are two parties responsible for what is happening in that marriage. The women married to those abusers are victims but unlike the dogs they are not HELPLESS victims.


I hope you are right, becasue its true, it is pointless to cry over spilled milk. Goodell has been busy changing the way things are handled and maybe he will change the policy regarding domestic abusers if found guilty of it.

However, when I was in my twenties, I spent some time at a womens and childrens shelter. In some cases, these women cannot escape their abusers, easily. Their abusers threaten to kill them, stalk them, beat them down so bad for years that the women didint even know how to balance a checkbook (a basic need for survival). One of the things we taught them was basic survival needs becasue they were so far out of the world of reality, due to years of emotional and physical abuse, and having no financial means.

Granted, when Whitney Houston was screaming abuse, I was like shut up bitch. She had the financial and emotional support she needed to get out. Not all women do.

wutamess
08-24-2007, 12:59 PM
I used to agree with you, never under any circumstances, raise a hand to your wife, until a few years ago. My wife, (who outweighs me by about 80 lbs), suddenly started slapping me when we argued. I put up with it for a couple of weeks. I started warning her to stop, or I would slap her back. She continued, and one day she slapped me, and I slapped her back, hard. She went berzerk. She couldn't believe I hit her. I literally had to wrestle her to the ground and pin her to calm her down. When I let her up, she went crying to her mama, and the whole family blamed me. She did not call the police, fortunately, but had she, I am sure I would have been arrested. Just saying, sometimes you need to hear both sides.
BTW... she has NEVER slapped me again.

Great example and that was my point.

Sully
08-24-2007, 01:02 PM
So there are times when domestic abuse is cool?

What?
Depends...


...is she hot?

Otter
08-24-2007, 01:05 PM
I hope you are right, becasue its true, it is pointless to cry over spilled milk. Goodell has been busy changing the way things are handled and maybe he will change the policy regarding domestic abusers if found guilty of it.

However, when I was in my twenties, I spent some time at a womens and childrens shelter. In some cases, these women cannot escape their abusers, easily. Their abusers threaten to kill them, stalk them, beat them down so bad for years that the women didint even know how to balance a checkbook (a basic need for survival). One of the things we taught them was basic survival needs becasue they were so far out of the world of reality, due to years of emotional and physical abuse, and having no financial means.

Granted, when Whitney Houston was screaming abuse, I was like shut up bitch. She had the financial and emotional support she needed to get out. Not all women do.

Slightly off topic and maybe naive but...

How do people find themselves in an abusive relationship? I can only imagine that an abusive personality, be it emotional or physical, doesn't just pop up one day like someone all of a sudden wanting to watch Seinfeld on Thursday nights. There HAS to be early signs.

Why not get out when the writing is on the wall?

Again, I'm not being a smart ass and I have no experience with the subject but it just seems like one of those things that would be pretty easily avoidable.

ksushark
08-24-2007, 01:11 PM
Larry Johnson has a well noted history of beating women, yet he is cheered as a hero. The NFL has turned a blind eye to this type of abuse for years.

Larry Johnson has a well noted history of domestic violence accusations. I don't believe he was ever convicted. If you want to say that our society is too light on domestic violence then I'd agree, but how can you expect the NFL to penalize a player that wasn't convicted unless they had overwhelming evidence?

Also, I don't diasgree that this has been a serious issue in the past and very well could be an issue today. I'm just looking for something to back up the writer's claim that is more recent than a study that was published 12 years ago.

chasedude
08-24-2007, 01:25 PM
I used to agree with you, never under any circumstances, raise a hand to your wife, until a few years ago. My wife, (who outweighs me by about 80 lbs), suddenly started slapping me when we argued. I put up with it for a couple of weeks. I started warning her to stop, or I would slap her back. She continued, and one day she slapped me, and I slapped her back, hard. She went berzerk. She couldn't believe I hit her. I literally had to wrestle her to the ground and pin her to calm her down. When I let her up, she went crying to her mama, and the whole family blamed me. She did not call the police, fortunately, but had she, I am sure I would have been arrested. Just saying, sometimes you need to hear both sides.
BTW... she has NEVER slapped me again.

Excellent point... spousal abuse does happen to men too.

Redrum_69
08-24-2007, 01:27 PM
I used to agree with you, never under any circumstances, raise a hand to your wife, until a few years ago. My wife, (who outweighs me by about 80 lbs), suddenly started slapping me when we argued. I put up with it for a couple of weeks. I started warning her to stop, or I would slap her back. She continued, and one day she slapped me, and I slapped her back, hard. She went berzerk. She couldn't believe I hit her. I literally had to wrestle her to the ground and pin her to calm her down. When I let her up, she went crying to her mama, and the whole family blamed me. She did not call the police, fortunately, but had she, I am sure I would have been arrested. Just saying, sometimes you need to hear both sides.
BTW... she has NEVER slapped me again.


LOL you got owned

wutamess
08-24-2007, 01:35 PM
Slightly off topic and maybe naive but...

How do people find themselves in an abusive relationship? I can only imagine that an abusive personality, be it emotional or physical, doesn't just pop up one day like someone all of a sudden wanting to watch Seinfeld on Thursday nights. There HAS to be early signs.

Why not get out when the writing is on the wall?

Again, I'm not being a smart ass and I have no experience with the subject but it just seems like one of those things that would be pretty easily avoidable.

I hate comments/statements like this.
Short answer... people's emotions get involved. They think people can change.

Otter
08-24-2007, 01:37 PM
I hate comments/statements like this.
Short answer... people's emotions get involved. They think people can change.

Then avoid them, I've never dealt with it and was asking Carlota. I'd lose any emotional attachment pretty damn quick if anyone starts being abusive.

No, really.

Bob Dole
08-24-2007, 01:42 PM
Bob Dole once set up a match between two of his women and made them fight until one submitted, and called all his buddies over to bet on the fight. Bob Dole subsequently strung the loser up by her neck, attached a set of jumper cables to her nipples, and cranked the ignition until she died.

It ruined Bob Dole's NFL career.

Carlota69
08-24-2007, 02:12 PM
Slightly off topic and maybe naive but...

How do people find themselves in an abusive relationship? I can only imagine that an abusive personality, be it emotional or physical, doesn't just pop up one day like someone all of a sudden wanting to watch Seinfeld on Thursday nights. There HAS to be early signs.

Why not get out when the writing is on the wall?

Again, I'm not being a smart ass and I have no experience with the subject but it just seems like one of those things that would be pretty easily avoidable.

There are many reasons, I'm sure I wont be able to explain all, but, one of the main culprits is being raised in an abusive home. Maybe the women (we'll assume its a female for argument sake), watched her mother get beat and was raised to beleive that that was how love was expressed. She was raised with major self-esteem issues becasue of the abusers powere over her. Also, raised to beleive that she should "obey' her husband, stay home and raise babies adn never really gets into the financial responsibilities of the household. Therefore, not able to balance a checkbook and not have the ability to take care of herself. Also, abusers isolate their spouses so they have no where to go when she tries to leave. And people dont want to get involved in other peoples marital problems. So, she cant financially take care of herself, she has nowhere to go, and no one wants the abuser busting down their door looking for his wife. No one wants to be in the middle of that drama.


I know it seems archaic, and I'm sure the numbers are down as women, and the thinking has progressed in the last couple of decades, but the problem still exists.


For some, not all, its tough to get out when you can't even read the writing on the wall. Does that make sense?

Skip Towne
08-24-2007, 02:16 PM
Bob Dole once set up a match between two of his women and made them fight until one submitted, and called all his buddies over to bet on the fight. Bob Dole subsequently strung the loser up by her neck, attached a set of jumper cables to her nipples, and cranked the ignition until she died.

It ruined Bob Dole's NFL career.
Well, that and lack of talent.

Jayhawkerman2001
08-24-2007, 02:32 PM
they didnt just beat the dogs, they beat them to death... if somebody does that to a woman, yah, they're going to get in trouble... this has to be one of the most uninformed articles ive ever read....

Otter
08-24-2007, 02:46 PM
There are many reasons, I'm sure I wont be able to explain all, but, one of the main culprits is being raised in an abusive home. Maybe the women (we'll assume its a female for argument sake), watched her mother get beat and was raised to beleive that that was how love was expressed. She was raised with major self-esteem issues becasue of the abusers powere over her. Also, raised to beleive that she should "obey' her husband, stay home and raise babies adn never really gets into the financial responsibilities of the household. Therefore, not able to balance a checkbook and not have the ability to take care of herself. Also, abusers isolate their spouses so they have no where to go when she tries to leave. And people dont want to get involved in other peoples marital problems. So, she cant financially take care of herself, she has nowhere to go, and no one wants the abuser busting down their door looking for his wife. No one wants to be in the middle of that drama.


I know it seems archaic, and I'm sure the numbers are down as women, and the thinking has progressed in the last couple of decades, but the problem still exists.


For some, not all, its tough to get out when you can't even read the writing on the wall. Does that make sense?

In a theoretical way, yes it does.

Thanks for not getting irate over the question, it was a sincere one. Like I said I've been lucky enough not to have to deal with it directly. I've had my share of problems, that just wasn't one of them which makes it easy to sit back and say "why doesn't she just leave" but while I won't pretend to understand thoroughly I'm a little bit wiser than I was yesterday. The growing up with the problem and it following you into later life makes alot of sense.

As usual, you are the bomb.

Bob Dole, just think, if you would have gotten rid of the evidence you could be operating the JUGS football thrower for the Lions right now. :D

DTLB58
08-24-2007, 03:16 PM
they didnt just beat the dogs, they beat them to death... if somebody does that to a woman, yah, they're going to get in trouble... this has to be one of the most uninformed articles ive ever read....

Exactly :clap:

KCChiefsMan
08-24-2007, 03:23 PM
sometime bitches deserve it, dogs never do though. JUST KIDDING

memyselfI
08-24-2007, 03:46 PM
I hope you are right, becasue its true, it is pointless to cry over spilled milk. Goodell has been busy changing the way things are handled and maybe he will change the policy regarding domestic abusers if found guilty of it.

However, when I was in my twenties, I spent some time at a womens and childrens shelter. In some cases, these women cannot escape their abusers, easily. Their abusers threaten to kill them, stalk them, beat them down so bad for years that the women didint even know how to balance a checkbook (a basic need for survival). One of the things we taught them was basic survival needs becasue they were so far out of the world of reality, due to years of emotional and physical abuse, and having no financial means.

Granted, when Whitney Houston was screaming abuse, I was like shut up bitch. She had the financial and emotional support she needed to get out. Not all women do.

I understand the problem with domestic violence and I completely agree with you that the problem is not as easy as just leaving sometimes...

However, in relation to THIS ARTICLE and the point the author was making, the women she was comparing to helpless dogs are NOT helpless women. They are usually beautiful women who have married wealthy athletes and have options that those same women you speak of do not.

That is why the article is so damn pretentious and irritating. It's trying to make a point about two very serious things, animal and human abuse, and in trying to do so cheapens both. The woman is doing no woman any favors by making her shrill diatribe and, in fact, is feeding into the ignorance that has allowed both types of abuse to be tolerated too long.

See some of the responses, albeit 'joking', that are on this thread...

BigMeatballDave
08-24-2007, 03:55 PM
The league doesn't care about the animal abuse, its the gambling they don't like.

memyselfI
08-24-2007, 03:57 PM
The league doesn't care about the animal abuse, its the gambling they don't like.

I agree with you to a point. I think it's one of those ugly things the league rather would not deal with. By itself they wouldn't but coupled with the gambling allegations they get to act like they care about BOTH.

Carlota69
08-24-2007, 04:02 PM
I understand the problem with domestic violence and I completely agree with you that the problem is not as easy as just leaving sometimes...

However, in relation to THIS ARTICLE and the point the author was making, the women she was comparing to helpless dogs are NOT helpless women. They are usually beautiful women who have married wealthy athletes and have options that those same women you speak of do not.

That is why the article is so damn pretentious and irritating. It's trying to make a point about two very serious things, animal and human abuse, and in trying to do so cheapens both. The woman is doing no woman any favors by making her shrill diatribe and, in fact, is feeding into the ignorance that has allowed both types of abuse to be tolerated too long.

See some of the responses, albeit 'joking', that are on this thread...


Absolutely. The women, typically, married to pro athletes, I would imagine are in a better place than the women I saw at the shelter or the stereotypical statistic. True. And my point was more about the leaving part--not relating to the article. The article is a little extreme, and what Vick did is sadistic and premeditated. Big Diff for sure. I thought the same about the jokes, just perpetuates things. But the jokers dont, and probably wont, get that.

BIG_DADDY
08-24-2007, 04:05 PM
I understand the problem with domestic violence and I completely agree with you that the problem is not as easy as just leaving sometimes...

However, in relation to THIS ARTICLE and the point the author was making, the women she was comparing to helpless dogs are NOT helpless women. They are usually beautiful women who have married wealthy athletes and have options that those same women you speak of do not.

That is why the article is so damn pretentious and irritating. It's trying to make a point about two very serious things, animal and human abuse, and in trying to do so cheapens both. The woman is doing no woman any favors by making her shrill diatribe and, in fact, is feeding into the ignorance that has allowed both types of abuse to be tolerated too long.

See some of the responses, albeit 'joking', that are on this thread...

You are for killing all pits. Good god this is the equivilent of PETA condemning Vick. You make Vick look Christ like you stupid gunt.

ChiefaRoo
08-24-2007, 04:05 PM
I like girls.

stevieray
08-24-2007, 04:12 PM
beat women
kill dogs

both are wrong...if the Rams and Falcons want perpetrators on their team...that reflects on them as enablers..I think 20 years ago there wouldn't even be a debate about this, because our standards have dropped so low, and athletes have been "forced" into position of playing role model...it's hard to admit we are turning a blindeye after the damage has already been done.

Uncle_Ted
08-24-2007, 04:22 PM
they didnt just beat the dogs, they beat them to death... if somebody does that to a woman, yah, they're going to get in trouble... this has to be one of the most uninformed articles ive ever read....
Appropriate you think that way, because your comment is one of the most uninformed that I've read on this BB in a while.

Do you really think that the only reason Vick is in trouble is because he killed some dogs? He owned some animals and then he killed them? If that's the only analytical framework that you are using, then hunters are in that same boat too, as are all vets, farmers, dog pound workers, meat-packing plant workers, etc.

Obviously it's not that simple. I'm not going to argue that Vick did not commit a crime by doing what he did. It was not only illegal, but morally worthy of punishment.

But I agree with the gist of the original article, which is questioning why Vick's crime merits the NFL equivalent of the "death penalty" in the minds of many commentators (and possibly the mind of the commissioner), yet other NFL players that have committed "worse" crimes (as in actual crimes against human beings) are still allowed to keep their NFL careers (even when they involve or result in loss of life - like Leonard Little).

The author wasn't necessarily proposing a policy prescription for how the NFL should handle spousal abuse; she was questioning the NFL's methodology (assuming that one even exists beyond the whim of the commissioner) in deciding appropriate penalties for illegal conduct.

meStevo
08-24-2007, 04:27 PM
Oh you're right, he only ran an illegal business with his NFL earnings for 5 years. Certainly doesnt warrant being kicked from... the NFL.

memyselfI
08-24-2007, 06:30 PM
yet other NFL players that have committed "worse" crimes (as in actual crimes against human beings) are still allowed to keep their NFL careers (even when they involve or result in loss of life - like Leonard Little).

The author wasn't necessarily proposing a policy prescription for how the NFL should handle spousal abuse; she was questioning the NFL's methodology (assuming that one even exists beyond the whim of the commissioner) in deciding appropriate penalties for illegal conduct.

Other NFL players committed worse acts and went un/under punished under the pansy azzed former commissioner. Hopefully a new day has dawned and this case will be a heads up and a red flag to the rest of the spoiled brat criminals in the league to get their personal lives in order or their professional lives will suffer.

Iowanian
08-24-2007, 06:43 PM
Duh.....Dogs are Man's best Friend.

Broads take half their money, give them herpes.....and act like Dunce.

Logical
08-24-2007, 07:47 PM
Carlotta has brought an important point forward but the NFL is all about men. This is a woman's view and will therefore probably not register with the NFL. After all NFL used to stand for Not For Ladies, well back in the olden days anyway.

Skip Towne
08-24-2007, 07:53 PM
Carlotta has brought an important point forward but the NFL is all about men. This is a woman's view and will therefore probably not register with the NFL. After all NFL used to stand for Not For Ladies, well back in the olden days anyway.
Wade Phillips told a ref it stood for "Not For Long".

Skip Towne
08-24-2007, 07:55 PM
Wade Phillips told a ref it stood for "Not For Long".
The players say it means "No Fun League".

Extra Point
08-24-2007, 07:57 PM
Wade Phillips told a ref it stood for "Not For Long".

You're mixing him up with June Phillips, who coached the Falcons, too, but it was neither. It was Jim Glanville.

stevieray
08-24-2007, 08:00 PM
You're mixing him up with June Phillips, who coached the Falcons, too, but it was neither. It was Jim Glanville.

jerry glanville?

Extra Point
08-24-2007, 08:04 PM
Yeah, that's it! Thanks for getting it right.

Logical
08-24-2007, 08:09 PM
jerry glanville?Finally someone got it right, even if you left the caps out.

Bob Dole
08-24-2007, 10:01 PM
Bob Dole would like to clarify that the gambling part of Bob Dole's earlier example was fictitious, and was only included to make a point.

listopencil
08-24-2007, 11:38 PM
Rae Carruth. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rae_Carruth)

listopencil
08-24-2007, 11:42 PM
Sam Brandon (http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_6362668)

listopencil
08-24-2007, 11:44 PM
Those are two cases right off the top of my head showing two extremely different sets of circumstances. This writer is an idiot.

RedNeckRaider
08-27-2007, 12:07 PM
Larry Johnson has a well noted history of domestic violence accusations. I don't believe he was ever convicted. If you want to say that our society is too light on domestic violence then I'd agree, but how can you expect the NFL to penalize a player that wasn't convicted unless they had overwhelming evidence?

Also, I don't diasgree that this has been a serious issue in the past and very well could be an issue today. I'm just looking for something to back up the writer's claim that is more recent than a study that was published 12 years ago.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2160514
A plea bargain is a guilty plea, however I understand your point.