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keg in kc
05-13-2001, 11:27 PM
Attached is the latest digital pic of my dogs, if anyone would like to see. ;)

The "puppy" (8 months old...) on the left is Sheba, pure German Shepherd, and Tashi is on the right. She's a half labrador/half pointer.

Rick Stephens
05-13-2001, 11:46 PM
That's a mighty fine pair of dogs that you have there Keg. I have a pure bred black and white Cocker Spaniel and it is amazing how attached we get to our pets. Mine sleeps on the bed at night behind my head. He thinks he runs this household. Truth is he probably does.

Mark M
05-14-2001, 07:05 AM
Cute "kids" you got there.

The Mrs. and I just got a 4 month old puppy about, well, four months ago named Karma. Took her forever to housetrain and she still chews on damn near everything (trash, lighters, compact discs, anything made of paper, the little "helicopters" from our maple trees ... pretty much anything she can get a hold of). Hve you had a problem with this? Anyone? We kennel her during the day, but even when we're home she'll get a hold of stuff.

Good thing she's cute. Now if the white one would just teach her the ropes ...

Here are Karma and Shadow (black and white, respectively. And notice who has all of the toys):

Bob Dole
05-14-2001, 09:11 AM
Bob Dole feels the need to jump into the fray...

Attached is Bob Dole's recently acquired bundle of poop...er, ahem, joy.

BIG_DADDY
05-14-2001, 09:40 AM
Great lookin dog's there Keg. I wish I was out in the country so I could have something a little bigger too.

BIG DADDY

Loves his english bulldog though.

ExtremeChief
05-14-2001, 10:10 AM
While on the dog subject. I recently lost my lab to an overzelous 4X4. My lack of training, along with excessive speed on my gravel road, cost my buddy his life. While I always tried to be logical about it, knowing it would happen someday, and say, "Labs were meant to run, if he dies running, he dies happy." It doesn't seem to help much now that it happened. It's amazing how close we get with our pets.

Anyhoo, has anyone out there tried these "electronic fences"?? I am considering purchasing one (after I got to the humane society and get a couple of dogs) and was wondering how well they work. I don't want to clutter up my yard with a wood fence or metal panels. Just wondered if anyone had experience with using these.


trying to prevent it from happening again...

seclark
05-14-2001, 10:36 AM
my buddy has the buried hot fence and it works pretty good now that his chocolate lab realizes something's there...the first few time he ran thru the thing, it freaked him out and we had to drag him back to the yard. he's used to it now, though.

my turn for a dog question...pit bulls. never had one and never wanted one. however, my sons came home friday and gave a puppy to their mother for mothers day. they said it had been abandoned and they picked it up off the road. i took it to the vet, and he says it's a pit bull and way too young to have been taken away from it's mother. i'm very concerned about this.

anybody out there w/experience with pit bulls? it gets along great w/the labs.

thanks,
sec

ck_IN
05-14-2001, 10:39 AM
Don't have such a fence myself but I've known people that swear by them. Basicly they work by negitive re-enforcement. When the pooch goes too far a chip in his collar gets a signal from the fence and gives him a little shock. Before long he learns where the good vs bad areas are. I went for a chain-link to keep things out as well as in.

Good call on the humane society. Save a dog and get a bud, all at the same time.

Rick Stephens
05-14-2001, 10:52 AM
Mark M,

Good looking pair of "Kids.

My Cocker Spaniel loves to chew up paper also. He is 5 years old and I still can't break him of the habit. He will pull anything paper from my pockets and run with it and will then tear it into little bitty pieces. One evening while I was watching tv, he came running from the bathroom to the kitchen with toilet paper trailing behind him and and then he comes and gives me one of those look what I did looks, good thing he is cute and lovable or he would have gotten more than a swat from the fly swatter. I have tried everything to break him of this habit and still he does it and I haven't figured out how to put a stop to it. His other habit I can't break is he loves to eat flowers and I can't break that one either. Wish I knew how to break these bad habits.

Rick Stephens
05-14-2001, 11:10 AM
seclark,

A friend of mine married a gal who had a blond Cocker Spaniel. He got a pitbull puppy and it was raised with the Cocker. When the pitbull got to be about two years old it killed the Cocker Spaniel.
I have another friend who raised another pitbull from a puppy and she attacked a packmule. To make a long story short the mule ended up killing the dog.
I love dogs but I don't think that I would want a pitbull. They are too unpredictable.
Here in California it seems that about once a week you read where one has attacked someone. A lot of homeowners insurance companies here will raise your rates if they know that you have a pitbull. They say the liability is much greater due to dog bites.

Mark M
05-14-2001, 11:47 AM
sec--
There is a saying that there are no bad dogs, just bad owners. I have found that true more often than not ... but pit bulls are an exception to that rule. They are bred for one thing: killing. What makes them so dangerous is that they have incredibly powerful jaws and the jaws lock. Once they get a hold of something they will not let go. I would suggest you either take the dog to a no-kill shelter or get it trained ... and trained well. Otherwise, you will have problems with it and other dogs, strangers and children.

Rick--
You're the third person who has told me that once a dog has a thing for paper, they always will. I tried spraying the paper in the trash can with some sour apple spray. No luck. Tried chilli powder. No luck. I'm going to use Ceyenne pepper next. The scary thing is that she will chew ANYTHING. She destroyed a Metallica cd (case, disc, everything was in little pieces) and has almost chewed through 2 lighters. She's part Corgi (thus the big ears and little legs) and they are not supposed to be so bad. The vet thinks that she was weaned too early, thus the oral fixation. She also spent the first four months of her life in a shelter (we saved her a week before she was to be put down) and they let her chew on stuff.

I guess we'll just have to keep an eye on her. You know, we never realized how good Shadow (the white one) was until we got her. Of course, he's picking up some of her bad habits.

Still better than kids (and much less expensive). ;)

MM
~~Treats his dogs better than he treats most people.

seclark
05-14-2001, 11:53 AM
thanks for your input guys...i dont have a very good feeling about the whole thing. cute puppy, but there's too many bad things that can happen.
i'm afraid i'm going to have to be the a-hole and say no to this pup. the wife and i both work, and to leave that type of dog unattended is a disaster waiting to happen.

thanks again,
sec

ExtremeChief
05-14-2001, 12:10 PM
Thanks for the help on the fence...

As far as paper chewing, my lab never seemed to chew up anything. He knew which toys were his, and didn't screw with anything else. I do believe that may be due to breed. Labs are supposedly easier to train than other breeds, the only thing I had trouble with was my labs "selective hearing". If he was outside, he went deaf.

Don't know much about pit bulls...but you sure do hear about more attacks by them than any other breed. It would be a risk I wouldn't be willing to take.


my fiancee says I have "selective hearing"...

seclark
05-14-2001, 02:00 PM
my oldest lab will chew the top off a beer can and drink/lap up just about every drop. she can open my cooler too.
sec

keg in kc
05-14-2001, 02:37 PM
sec, Sheba (the German Shepherd) will drink any alcohol. Hmm, kinda like me... She loves beer and she'll even drink straight liquor if she can. I don't let her have much (she's too wild without it...) but it is pretty funny. ;)

She's the first, and only, dog I've ever gotten from a different source than the humane society. We looked for weeks to get a dog to spend time with Tashi, at every place in KC, and just didn't find what we were looking for. Then one day we walk into a Petland to get some bedding for her hamsters, and this cute little solid black German Shepherd (my favorite dog...) is there staring through the glass. I would never have considered buying a pet from a mall pet store (and still wouldn't...) but Tracy convinced me to let her out of the cage and play with us, and, well, you all know how that story goes...

She's been a great dog, but like some of you guys' stories, she just chews on anything, although she seems to have a thing for fabric and plastic. She tears up dog beds and carpets, especially, so her kennel has to have the plastic cover bare, but she seems okay with it. But if she can reach anything, watch out...

Mark M
05-14-2001, 02:39 PM
extreme--
LOL!!! I think I suffer from the same thing.

sec--
Shadow loves Guiness. Whenever I have one, all I have to open it. As soon as he hears the "whoosh" of the widget (if you've had Guiness in a can, you know what I'm talking about) he's right there. My wife doesn't see the humor in it.

ExtremeChief
05-14-2001, 02:46 PM
just got a phone call from my fiancee...she picked up 2 10 week old Lab/hound mix pups at the humane society. They gave her 2 $5 off coupons for neutering/spading. Got one male and one female. Black with "big feet, and white on their feet and bellies"

If I get some pics I'll post them.

She also got 1000' of electronic fence for me to bury...hopefully it will keep them out of the road. I definitely don't want to bury another for awhile.



my life's goin to the dogs AGAIN...

ExtremeChief
05-14-2001, 02:50 PM
sec,

my lab would bark at beer in a bowl cause the bubbles tickled his nose...by the way, your not far from me, I live in Milan (you now know why I put BFE in my profile)

We found a toy called "kong" it was red and hard rubber, he never could destroy it. I think we got it at a pet warehouse in KC. If we got him the ropes or anything like them he would destroy them in a day. Tennis balls seem to last a long time too.



beer tickles my nose too, but I'm getting used to it...

cathyb
05-14-2001, 06:40 PM
Mark M is absolutely right-- dogs were originally bred for specific purposes and that's why pit bulls, chows, dobermans, and other guard dogs can be sooo unpredictable. I would NEVER have a PB in my home period, double never with kids around. The 'no bad dogs, just bad owners' thing just doesn't apply to some breeds.
Paper chewing.... negative reinforcement needs to be a suprise sometimes so the dog doesn't associate getting in trouble with YOU. Example.. a dog that gets in the trash.... get a soda can and fill it half way with pennies or bb's or something that will make a lot of noise. (cover the hole with tape or something) When the dog goes near the trash, throw it at the can (not the dog) to startle it. The dog isn't smart enough to know you threw the can and will associate getting a hell of a startle from the trash can and will learn to stay away. Same could apply to chewing on paper... throw the can near the dog when chewing something inappropriate, and give praise and a treat when chewing on a chew toy. See?
my .02

keg in kc
05-14-2001, 07:08 PM
Cathyb is right on, but the trick is catching the dog in the act. You can't do it five minutes later because the dog won't make the connection. You can't yell at the dog about the trash on the floor because the dog won't understand. You can't pick up a chewed-up (whatever is chewed-up...) and show it to the dog and expect the dog to understand what you're doing. You HAVE to catch the dog IN the trashcan and startle him/her. You have to catch the dog with the paper IN his/her mouth and make a ruckus. Any punishment after the fact won't abate the activity you're trying to stop and may actually cause other negative behavior. It will take a lot of attention and a lot of patience, but you can fix the behavior.

Just remember, this is the most important thing about training dogs: don't punish after they've done something - you have to punish while they're actually doing something. It's the only way they'll understand because they have absolutely no attention span.

And when I say "punish" I'm using that term loosely- I don't mean beat your dog, I mean startle your dog in the way Cathyb described. Rolling up a newspaper and hitting it on something makes a good, scary noise too.

Now me, since I have a dog that's unaffected by that, I have to just yell at her. She has learned to associate a certain tone of voice with "oh crap, I shouldn't be doing this", but that's a last resort...

DanT
05-14-2001, 07:18 PM
Keg's post reminds me of a fond memory I have of my sweetheart's two Samoyeds. One day I left them in them in her kitchen but didn't relocate the kitchen trashcan into the living room, where they couldn't get to it. We'd always confine them to the kitchen whenever we would leave for the day. Anyway, as I was walking down the street, I realized I had forgotten something and needed to go back. When I got to the front door, I had a clear line-of-sight to the kitchen and saw that both dogs were already at the trash can, working together trying to get the cover off of it.

That's when I realized that the little fiends were actually partners in crime, despite the show of non-cooperation they put up when the humans are around! :)

Rick Stephens
05-14-2001, 08:46 PM
I understand what all of you are saying about a dog getting into the trash. My Cocker Spaniel doesn't get into the trash. He likes to tear up paper. He will grab a piece of the newspaper and run around with it and then start tearing it into little bitty pieces. He will go into bathroom grab the toilet tissue and take off and run through the house unrolling it. I have to keep the bathroom door closed but if someone forgets my living room looks like a snowstorm hit it. How do I break him of this type of paper chewing? He has more toys than a lot of kids have and he knows right from wrong. Also my son collects hot wheels cars.If he leaves one where Gizmo can get it he will chew up the package, the paper part of it but doesnt chew up the car.

keg in kc
05-14-2001, 09:16 PM
Rick, it's the exact same context, and I'll break it down into a few steps for you just to make it a little clearer:

1) Don't leave anything within reach. Do everything you can to keep any paper/plastic/whatever out of the dog's line-of-sight. It's a pain in the arse, but it's the first step...

2) Don't ever just leave something there once the dog gets it (this is a big problem of mine...). A lot of times I'd have a tendency to say, "well crap, she already got it" and then just let Sheba/Tashi (they both did/do this) keep tearing into whatever she had. Not smart...

3) It's hard to watch all the time, but it's kind of like a young kid - know what the dog is doing as much as you can. Bad behaviors are usually learned when you're not looking, so look as much as you can.

4) When you see the dog doing something, react immediately. Don't sit and watch and don't try to sneak up on it. Make some sort of noise - throw something (not at the dog, but around the dog to startle), slap a wall or your leg - anything you can do to startle the dog.

5) Conversely to #4, when you don't see the dog do something (i.e. you find it later) there's no point at all in trying to punish the dog. He/she just won't understand why you're waving that toilet paper like that and will probably try to play, which generally p!sses me off even more. Just pick it up and try to catch them next time...

There's all sorts of things you can try, but I've found that most of the sour-tasting sprays don't work (the dog gets used to the flavor) and the same is true for cayanne pepper. So you have to respond directly to the behavior.

Also, we have a crate/kennel for our puppy (the big dog). It's a place you can leave her while you're away or if you don't want the dog sleeping on you for a night, and you'll know it's not getting into anything. Dogs actually like having a small enclosed space, so it serves as sort of an indoor dog house. And although you don't want to make it a punishment thing exactly, you can put the dog in there as sort of a "time out" when it's being wild.

And, finally, the best thing we ever did with our dogs was take them to a dog obedience course at a local breeder/kennel (we kinda slacked off toward the end, but it was still good). You'll find out in the end that it's really you that needs training, and not the dog. That was hard for me to swallow at first, but I got over it, and both dogs are much better behaved now than before, and I believe it was only about 100 bucks for an 8 week course - and although they still have a little ways to go, it was a good move.

Rick Stephens
05-14-2001, 10:32 PM
Keg,

Thanks for the tips. I usually try to keep a pretty good eye on him. When I see him doing this unacceptable behavior I scold him right then. The thing that makes me mad is he will look me directly in the eye, grab a piece of the paper, run to the other side of the table, tear it up and then run from me, to him its a game. I too have a big pet carrier that is like an indoor doghouse that I put him in for punishment. I try to keep things that he likes to chew up out of sight but he will climb to get things.

keg in kc
05-14-2001, 10:44 PM
Hmm, you have a hardcase dog. Lemme see what I can dig up for you...

cathyb
05-14-2001, 11:23 PM
Rick- you're not gonna like this one but here's another option that is helpful when potty training a dog and might help with your 'paperboy'. Try tethering the dog to you for a couple of days, like over a weekend that you know you'll be home. It's a pain in the butt, however, the dog can't get far enough away to get in trouble without you being able to give an immediate correction.
I'd try to refrain from using the crate as a punishment if you can. Like Keg said, most dogs enjoy their crates and sorta view them as their 'den'. (they're pack animals with the heirarchy and the den instinct and all that stuff) I use mine for potty training young pups and keeping our cocker in when we're gone. If I say 'go to your room, she'll happily go to her crate 'cause it's her space and she doesn't associate it with me being angry with her. (my big dogs have the run of the basement- crates take up too much room!) just a suggestion!

Mark M
05-15-2001, 07:09 AM
Well, last night was one of the most stressful I've ever had.

First, when I got home, Karma (the little black spaz) had escaped the corral I just paid $80 for (she got too big for her kennel). She ate a number of things, including my wife's only two Packers hats (and if you've ever met a Packers fan—not to be confused with Packfan—you can imagine how upset she was).

Second, the white dog, Shadow, was yelping everytime he moved. We had no idea why. He has had his front leg broken before my wife got him and I thought that was the problem. Well, it wasn't. And everytime Karma wanted to play with him, he would run away yelping.

Third, I went and got a new crate for Karma. It was a metal wire one with a plastic bottom tray that was about 1/2" thick. Very tough plastic. Remember this.

Fourth, we wound up taking Shadow to the emergency vet (he's going to our regular one today). Turns out that, in the vets estimation, our little guy had slipped a disc or had a herniated disc. The cause? Well, when he and Karma play, she has a tendency to run at him full bore and sideswipe him. It's actually funny to watch, but it turns out she threw his back out.

Fifth, when we took Shadow to the vet, we locked Karma up in her new cage. When we got home an hour later, she had somehow destroyed the plastic tray ... half of it was torn into little pieces and she even got a hold of the carpet underneath it. We put her two favorite bones in there, but she didn't even touch them. Oh yeah, she won't get anywhere near the Kong I spent $10 on ... she hates it.

I AM AT MY WITS END WITH THAT LITTLE BLACK DOG!! Not only did she hurt Shadow, but she will not go into her crate. When you try to put her in, she just rolls over and submissive pees all over the place. She won't even go after a treat that is thrown into it. I've dressed up her "cage" so that it is covered by some towels, thus not looking like the cage she was in at the shelter.

Now, I've been thinking about giving her up. My wife won't let me take her to a shelter ... Karma spent the first four months of her life in a shelter which probably explains why she is mentally behind where she should be. But I just can't take it anymore.

The only things holding me back are:
1. We've spent an awful lot of $$ on the dog.
2. She loves me more than anything in the world (she even waits next to the tub when I'm in the shower).
3. She really is a sweet little dog. She's just a pain in the f*cking a$$.

I realize that she will get over it if we were to find her a new home. She's a dog and will love anyone who treats her nice. At this point, I don't even care ... I almost just let her out the front door in the hopes she would just run away. I'm that stressed out and frustrated.

Any suggestions?

MM
~~Can't handle a puppy ... and people wonder why he doesn't want children.

seclark
05-15-2001, 09:32 AM
milan, huh? that's about the area this pup came from. my sons were coming home from school in trenton and picked him up on the road(they say).

my tailgate group always goes thru milan on our way to the chiefs games.

nice to meet you neighbor!
sec

ExtremeChief
05-15-2001, 11:29 AM
Sec,

Nice to meet you too...


As far as cages go, I used the cage for my dog for punishment, but he still liked to go in there on his own. If he was being punished, I would shut the door. He usually slept on a pillow in our room, and roamed free through the house during the day. The 2 pups I just got look like they are going to chew the $hit out of things. I will leave them in their crates during the day while I'm away, and let them run free while I'm there.

The most important thing about training is time...you need to spend hours with your pet. It's a pain in the *** sometimes, but the more time you spend, the less likely they will be to do something stupid while your gone. Hopefully in a few months, I'll be able to let these dogs roam the house while we are gone. I like something inside barking while I'm away.



jumping back into puppydom...

Mark M
05-15-2001, 12:41 PM
Did you guys know they make a puppy Prozac to help with separation anxiety?? :eek:

Just got some for Karma ... it'll take a few weeks to be effective, but the $21 for the perscription is better than having to replace half of the things in our house.

And Shadow has a slipped disc in his back. Poor guy ... :( He should be better soon.

Now if I can just work about ... 60 hours of overtime to pay for the bills ($250 in the last two days).

MM
~~Should've got a goldfish.