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View Full Version : Grbac calls out Dick Vermiel...


DaWolf
05-14-2001, 11:30 AM
I probably should not be bringing up Elvis again, and some of this stuff I'm sure we've read before, but I did find this article interesting. It's basically a piece that looks into critisisms of Grbac and tries to put Ravens fans at peace. Sort of like the type of articles we got when he first signed with us. Interesting to see the perspective we have on him now vs when he first signed (sort of like how SF looked at him when he left) and comparing it to the perspective Ravens fans are taking right now with him...

Grbac is a composite of past Ravens quarterbacks: the loner tendencies of Vinny Testaverde, the swagger of Jim Harbaugh and the long-ball touch of Tony Banks.

Now, can he play?

That's the $30 million question. After first pursuing Brad Johnson as a replacement for inconsistent Trent Dilfer, the Ravens signed Grbac as a free agent on March 8 to a five-year, $30 million contract.

But unlike in his previous stops in San Francisco, where he was asked to replace former league MVP Young, or Kansas City, where he had to act as a buffer between dynamic defensive stars and an underachieving offense, Grbac has a different role in Baltimore.

That's a good thing, because Grbac comes with some NFL baggage.

In four years at Kansas City, the Chiefs went to one playoff game despite having some of the best defensive talent in the league.

What happened?

A broken left clavicle forced Grbac, 6 feet 5, 240 pounds, to miss six games in 1997. He was 6-2 as a starter. Then he separated his right shoulder, which forced him to miss four games in 1998.

He escaped the injury bug the past two seasons, but faced serious questions about his ability in two areas essential for any NFL quarterback: running a two-minute offense and providing leadership.

Chiefs fans will remember Grbac throwing a lot of dump passes in the middle of the field in the final two minutes against San Diego in a 21-14 loss in 1999 instead of trying to march the team down the field. They will never forget the 30-24 loss to New England last year when Grbac, with no timeouts and 12 seconds left in the game, threw a 5-yard pass in the middle of the field to tight end Tony Gonzalez, who was tackled as time expired.

But maybe Grbac's worst moments in Kansas City came after a 20-13 loss to the Pittsburgh Steelers in 1998. Grbac publicly criticized several of his teammates, including Gonzalez, fullback Tony Richardson and running back Donnell Bennett. He later apologized, but those remarks and his quiet demeanor have led to doubts about his leadership.

"The one negative that I hear from other players is that he wasn't the kind of guy to take blame," ESPN analyst Ron Jaworski said. "It was always someone else's fault. So I think, from a maturity standpoint, Elvis is going to have to step up to the plate when things go wrong. Even if it's not his fault, it's got to be his fault."

Grbac and the Ravens deny a leadership problem. Before the Ravens signed Grbac, they talked with Washington Redskins assistant coaches Jimmy Raye and Richard Mann, who were Chiefs assistants when Grbac was in Kansas City. Ozzie Newsome, Ravens vice president of player personnel, said several of the Ravens were impressed with Grbac at the Pro Bowl in January.

"A lot of this stuff is from Dick Vermeil," Grbac said of the new Chiefs coach. "I like Dick, I respect him and heard a lot of good things about him. But what I sense out there is a lot of frustration on the organization's part.

"Why did Dick come out of retirement? He sensed he had a pretty good offense, tight end, quarterback, offensive line and only a couple of pieces were missing. Then his quarterback leaves. Someone has to be the scapegoat. Why not put it on the person who left? Talk to Tony Richardson, Tony Gonzalez, ask them if I tried to step in there and do everything I could to help the team win. You'll get a totally different message."

Richardson said: "I thought he was a great leader and has the potential to lead a team to the Super Bowl. Unfortunately the fans, not all of them, never backed him, never supported him. They put all of the offensive problems on his shoulders. But I saw the work ethic, the way he approached practices and games. He was a pro. As for the two-minute drills, he didn't get the one in New England, but how about the one he worked in Minnesota where we won? Everything always gets pinned on a quarterback. It was unfair."

Redskins coach Marty Schottenheimer, who was Grbac's head coach for his first two seasons in Kansas City, said Grbac had to go through growing pains.

"I think he has become a good leader in the last couple of years because he has developed the ability to overcome his mistakes," Schottenheimer said. "Like a lot of players early in their careers, if he made an error, he would become defensive. I don't think his leadership is an issue in my mind at all."

The past two seasons have been the best in Grbac's career. He threw for 3,389 yards in 1999 and another 4,169 last season. Both years he completed nearly 60 percent of his passes, and last season he finished with a quarterback rating of 89.9.

"Looking at Elvis Grbac on tape through the years, there is no question that this is a tremendously talented guy," Jaworski said. "It has always surprised me that he isn't more consistent. It seems every year that there are a couple of games where he doesn't play up to his potential. He has a clunker.

"But I look at him and see a big, strong, physical specimen who can move in the pocket and is a good deep-ball thrower. He is very accurate downfield. I think he is a real good fit for the style of offenses that Brian [Billick] likes to run."


http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/football/bal-sp.grbac13may13.story?coll=bal%2Dsports%2Dfootball

Baby Lee
05-14-2001, 12:41 PM
In four years at Kansas City, the Chiefs went to one playoff game despite having some of the best defensive talent in the league.

Can anyone say that is an accurate assessment of the Chiefs' defense in the last three years?

Further, you call this article "Grbac calls out Vermiel. It could just as easily be called "Richardson disses the fans [not all of them]."

47mack
05-14-2001, 12:44 PM
Where did you all go. I used to make one bad comment about Grbac and get 5 pages of response telling me I am was idiot. Now, no one defends him....SELL OUT BAND WAGONERS


He will be a waste of money, just as he was in KC. He will still make high School mistakes and find someone else to blame for it.

I can't wait for the day we play against him and he is losing in the last two minutes.....it will be an easy win.

DaWolf
05-14-2001, 12:44 PM
I think we had some very good talent on defense (some of the best is very debatable though). However, the coaches who were coaching those defensive players left a lot to be desired the last three years (see Kurt, Willie, and the ever pathetic Dave Adolph)...

Baby Lee
05-14-2001, 12:55 PM
That's the conundrum, some people on the Chiefs performed well below their potential for varying stretches in the past 3-4 years [McLockton, [P]Rison, all RBs, Edwards, Patton, DT [RIP, but its true], The Secondary [although they are young, still underachieving, IMO], Grey, Morris [both of them], Williams, etc.]. But none of them get the grief that the guy who [again, IMO] shattered expectations in the past two years.

Its kinda like saying thge worst thing about the movie Armageddon was that Liv tyler was an unattractive actress. there were a LOT of problems with that movie, and Liv Tyler is not the best actress in the world. But [once again, IMO] she is a hotty and was the highlight of the movie.

BCD
05-14-2001, 12:59 PM
Mack - I used to defend EG. Hes not a Chief anymore, so whats the point! This certainly does not make me a SELL OUT BAND WAGONER.

What about thoes pathetic dreamers who couldn`t let go of Gannon!

Pitt Gorilla
05-14-2001, 01:04 PM
Mack
I support the Chiefs' players win or lose. Once they are no longer with the club, why should I support them? I'm not sure talking badly about people solves ANTHING.

DaWolf
05-14-2001, 02:08 PM
Mack,
I still feel Elvis was unfairly critisized for many things here and I do not regret defending a Chiefs player in moments where I felt critisism was not justified. In the same right, I did critisize him in moments where he definitely needed to be critisized, IE the New England game. IMO I do not find it productive to rip players on a team unless it is warranted. Elvis got a lot of flak last year for not taking us to the playoffs, but people were forgetting the real problems (coaching, defense, no running game).

Now that he is not a Chief, I still don't find a need to attack him. But I do take a more humorous approach to him when discussing him and his problems, and I don't wish him well in Baltimore, especailly with the remarks he feels he keeps needing to make about the organization.

I just hope Trent Green is a QB we can all get behind. I'm tired of these stupid QB factions...

Pitt Gorilla
05-14-2001, 02:24 PM
Well said, Wolf.

milkman
05-14-2001, 04:51 PM
I second Pitt, well said, Wolf.

I always believed the primary reason that Grbac never really developed into not only a talented QB, but a smart QB as well, is because KC, under Marty, and Gun, never had the coaching that he needed. I still maintain that.
I think he will start to become a better QB in all aspects of the game now that he is playing for a coach that actually understands offense and the QB position.

TCB
05-14-2001, 09:34 PM
There are still those out there who won't let go of gannon!

I too am finding a little more humour in some of the things that he says and does now that he is no longer a Chief.

I was a huge supporter of EG and now wish him well in his new home but don't feel the need to waste time discussing him know that he is gone.

Tomahawk 11
05-14-2001, 09:56 PM
Mack,

I don't think he is going to screw up out there in Baltimore. He wasn't the problem here either.

How come you don't make 10 million posts about Gonzo "sucking" because he drops the ball quite a bit? And he has dropped the ball quite a bit. (making a point here, I don't think Gonzo sucks).

BCD
05-15-2001, 02:07 AM
Well, I think we can all agree on one thing about Green. He has enough vowels in his name.

Alton deFlat
05-15-2001, 07:05 AM
Band Wagoner?? Just the opposite. We're all still Chiefs fans. If we had moved our allegiance to Baltimore with Elvis, or became Bronco fans (God forbid), when Neil Smith left KC, then we might be considered Band Wagoners.

Clint in Wichita
05-15-2001, 07:16 AM
Grbac is now showing what a b_tch he really is...this is why I HATED the guy for the last 2-3 years.


I can't believe how many of you faithfully backed that stupid ho through thick and thin, and actually admitted that you were "Grbackers" (What a stupid word) & proud of it...you should all be ashamed of yourselves for associating your name with a puckered sphincter like Grbac.

KCTitus
05-15-2001, 07:54 AM
Yeah, I still want to know what happend to the homer who said this:

Anything over 4,000 yards would put Grbac in a small and VERY elite group of QBs...most are Hall of Famers.

Baby Lee
05-15-2001, 08:05 AM
Clint - just knowing classy guys like you are out there is what leads to the urge to cover my mouth and mutter 'Chff's Fnn' when asked, instead of shouting the name of my favorite team from the rooftops.

stevieray
05-15-2001, 08:15 AM
Grbac's biggest drawback was the two minute drill. Say what you want, but the current SB Champs came calling on his services. It wouldn't surprise me if he was successful, because that seems to be the norm for Ex-Chiefs. Gannon, Traylor, Smith, Horn....

Clint in Wichita
05-15-2001, 08:34 AM
Awwww, Johnny, did my mean widdle words offend you?

Maybe the PMRC can start slapping labels on BB posts.

Baby Lee
05-15-2001, 08:42 AM
I'm not offended becuase you used 'bad words.'

I don't got that bad of a mouth, do I?
**** **** *** ***** ****, shooby-de-doo-wop (what?)
Skibbedy-be-bop, a-Christopher Reeves
Sonny Bono, skis horses and hittin some trees (HEY!)


I'm embarassed because you're an idiot.

Like it or not, to the rest of the NFL, aside from Gonzo, Grbac was the closest thing the Chiefs had to a 'bright spot' since DT died and the rest of the team went into the crapper. And when people like you focus all of your scorn on one of the few good things on the team, people get the impression that Chiefs fans don't know a lot.

cdcox
05-15-2001, 11:59 AM
THE FACTS: Right now, Grbac is in about the top-half to top-third of the starting QBs in the league. He still carries some baggage, no doubt. His 2-minute drill needs some work, but it got better last year compared to the season before. If he pulls that together, there won't be any quesitons about his leadership, and he will be one of the best QBs in the league. Will this happen? I don't know. But, no way am I happy that he went to Baltimore at this point in his career.

THE ANALYSIS: I thought Carl did the right thing in keeping Elvis and dumping Gannon right up to the moment Elvis left the building. Carl stuck with Elvis because he believed he would be the best choice for the Chiefs, and it was beginning to look as if that decision was the right one. That all changed when Elvis left town. Now the investment of 4yrs sticking with Elvis turned out to be wasted. The Chiefs didn't get to reap the fruit of their patience. We didn't get to use our 1st round draft choice on Duece McCallister or a defensive stud. The decision to bring Elvis to KC and the decision to stick with him for 4 yrs failed.

THE EMOTIONS: Who to blame?

Carl? If Elvis busts in Baltimore then, yes you could say Carl blew it when evaluating Grbac's talent and potential back in '96. Right now, you have to say Carl showed good judgement and patience in developing a good and still- improving QB.

Elvis? Yeah, I still carry a grudge. The guy bailed on us. That decision and his bad-mouthing of KC after his departure show a weak character and a lack of class that I had overlooked so long as he wore the R&G. Maybe I am wrong and these character flaws will keep him from ever realizing his full potential.

The fans? Yeah, I'm still mad about the boo birds and Gannon lovers. If Grbac succeeds in Baltimore, I will never, to my dying day, get over the feeling of "what might have been" had some stupid "fans" not known when to keep their pie hole shut. The guy had talent. He was the best shot at a legitimate star QB since Dawson. And all some people could do was carp about his failures from the day he got here. If he succeeds in Baltimore, I will have the comfort of knowing I was right, but that will not ease the pain of seeing him loft the Lombardi over his ugly mug. If he collapses in Baltimore, then I will enjoy a little revenge against that traitor, and will finally admit I was wrong about him all along.

THE HOMER: The King is dead, long live Trent Green!

DaWolf
05-15-2001, 12:18 PM
Elvis is definitely a better QB at this point for BMore than he was when he arrived here. I'd say if we were signing him right now we'd be getting a pretty good QB. The sad part is, he basically came here and developed, made a bunch of stupid mistakes, etc, and now he takes all those lessons with him to Baltimore, (of course it remains to be seen if he actually learned anything from those lessons or not) basically bailing on us after he was ready to actually be a good QB, taking the easy route out because he was unwilling to stick around and build a team. That last part really told me all I needed to know about Elvis. I was hoping he was a fighter and was loyal, after going through all the stuff he went through and having Carl stand by him. Guess not.

As far as Trent Green, will the locker room and huddle be better off with him here? Probably. Is the community better off with a guy who is making the move full time to Kansas City? Definitely. Do we have ourselves a better quarterback? I'll get back to you after the season. He needs to score TD's, he needs to get the ball to Gonzo, and he needs to perform in the clutch. As far as winning games, I won't lay that all on him. The talent level and coaching around him will determine that...

47mack
05-15-2001, 12:32 PM
You guys take my words too personal. My point is this....many people are critisizing Grbac everyday for is uncontrollable mouth and flaws as a QB. Do you think this all started after he left? NO! I am all about supporting the Chiefs and their players, but I am not all about supporting a jack@ss. IMO, that is a weak excuse.

T-11
I wouldn't expect anything else from you. You loved Elvis through good and bad....mostly bad (I respect you for standing strong). Your Gonzo remark is pathetic. Why don't you go back and watch some tapes of his drops. I'll bet you will find many passes from Grbac that were either terrible throws or Gonzo was double/triple covered. Better yet, why don't you look at some catches by Gonzo and many other receivers. I bet you will see many great catches that the receivers got very little credit for.

Elvis throws in to double coverage and Gonzo drops it...Gonzo is terrible.

Elvis throws in to double coverage and Gonzo catches it....Elvis has pin point accuracy.

ChiTown
05-15-2001, 12:33 PM
I think these things can be said about Grbac:

Good
1. He was an avg. to above avg. QB over the course of his Chiefs tenure.
2. He had a strong arm
3. Seemed to have the respect of his OL and receivers
4. Coaches whom he played for backed him 100%
5. Has more potential to be a star than anyone we currently have in our system

Bad
1. Seemed to lack desire, and appeared to be indifferent at times
2. Fans (many) never took to him and he never made a galant attempt to endear himself to the fans.
3. Looked horribly lost at times, which lead to a lot of poor decision making
4. Threw horrific, telegraphed floating out-passes
5. Did not appear to be a good field general when his team needed leadership.

In general, I think he was a nice QB, but not the QB I personally desire. The big thing for me is leadership and decision making. I personally think Elvis lacked both, and in a way, he knew he couldn't carry this team with his talent alone. He'll be successful in Baltimore, as they have a stellar defense and excellent receivers and RB's. The focus will not be on Elvis in Baltimore as it was in KC.

ChiTown
~seeking Greener pastures

DaWolf
05-15-2001, 12:53 PM
ChiTown,
I think the reason Elvis can be considered a "good" quarterback is because there aren't too many good QB's out there. The talent level at the position in the league is overall mediocre right now. My assertion was always that Elvis is good enough to win ballgames for us, but only if he had a good team around him. He was no Elway, and he was never going to become an Elway. He was a decent QB with flaws, but due to the lack of talent in the league at the position, he was a valuable commodity. Last year may have been a career year for him in numbers. In BMore, I anticipate more wins, but more modest numbers, because the Ravens are going to use the gameplan of build a lead early, and then let the D and ground game take over.

Mack,
Jackass is relative. Elvis could be a jackass at times, yes. In reality, I never really had much love for the guy. My defense of him mainly came due to a reaction to the excessive, and at times unfair critisism I felt he got, and in response to the IMO "jackasses" who kept harping about Gannon, and it just built from there. Example, 1999-2000 regular season finale. Elvis drives us in position for a relatively easy game winning FG, despite the fact that our defense sucked all day long and couldn't tackle a thing. "Pressure Pete" misses. Who gets ripped after the game on the BB? Grbac. I always responded to those people who kept saying "Well Gannon is a winner and Grbac is a loser" with, hey, if "Pressure Pete" does his job, then Grbac is a division winner and hosting a playoff game, while Gannon is sitting at home with a 7-9 record. In order to win, everyone has to do their jobs. you can't heap it all on one guy.

So that, in essence, is where my so called "support" came from. I didn't see any reason to rip a guy for stuff he was not responsible for. I'm not for supporting jackasses. But I'm also not for being a jackass when it comes to examining the real overall problems on a football team. Scapegoats are always easy to make...

Baby Lee
05-15-2001, 12:57 PM
having Carl stand by him.

True, Carl stood by him for a long time. But if I had to guess, I'd say Grbac took one look at his new 'daddy,' Dick Vermiel, sitting there with Trent Green's jizz still dripping from his chin and figured the days of Carl's support was over. And since the fans weren't behind him, and the coach wasn't behind him, and the GM had gone and composed a new 'playing circle,' AND the SB champs were courting him, he just figured 'eff-it, I'm out.' Can't blame him for that.

PS - that's DV with the jizz chin, not EG.

DaWolf
05-15-2001, 01:31 PM
Of course if that were true, it would make no sense to offer him the contract that they did, which was a better contract than what he got from BMore.

Now, do Vermiel and Saunders prefer Green over Grbac? I think that's a safe assumption to say yes, because they know how he performs in the system. But OTOH, the advantage you keep with Grbac is he knows and has timing with the recievers and TE's, and you could have a QB and keep your first round pick and give him a Deuce McAllister. So keeping Elvis would have had it's attractiveness to the Vermiel regime. I think this was basically a choice Elvis made, otherwise the Chiefs give him that 7 year contract and he's sitting in Cleveland studying Vermiel's playbook.

But I do think Trent Green coming here is an interesting twist to this Dick Vermiel return. In a sense, he gets to play out the scenario of "What if Trent Green hadn't gotten injured in St Louis." Who knows? If it's enjoyable for him and we start winning, he may stick around longer than 3 years...

Gaz
05-15-2001, 01:33 PM
sitting there with Trent Green's jizz still dripping from his chin

Come on folks. Is this kind of stuff really necessary? Can you please make your points without the juvenile shock value? It is tasteless, crude and unnecessary.

Perhaps I am a prude, but I really don't want to read this kind of stuff on the BB. Can we not aim for a slightly higher plane?

Thanks for listening.

xoxo~
Gaz
Evidently led a sheltered life.

BowtieGuy
05-15-2001, 01:39 PM
Cdcox,

Please explain how you climbed inside my head and pulled out my thoughts and feelings on Grbac and then, more eloquently than I could have done, placed them on the BB?

Confused, but pleased.

BowtieGuy
05-15-2001, 01:43 PM
Gaz,

DITTOS, DITTOS, DITTOS!!!!

However, Gaz, you must realize that some people lack your level of intellect and vast vocabulary and must therefore, fall back on what metephores they have available.

~very glad I don't have to think with JC's brain...yuk!

Baby Lee
05-15-2001, 01:48 PM
C'mon Gaz -

First, the description is absolutely apt. Not only did DV run Grbac off, but he sits there calling veteran FAs 'stop-gaps' knowing it would pi$$ them off and further limit our options. Then he gives similar back-handed compliments to just about every Qb in the draft. Lo and Behold, his 'life partner' is the only guy left to talk with us.

Second, Clint's slinging the "b!itches, hos, and puckered schincters" all the livelong day, and you wait 'til now to weigh in? I'm not complaining about the language, merely pointing out that the tone of this thread had already been set.

That said, my intent was to shock, but not offend, Gaz. I have seen much worse around here. And this issue really gets me wound up. Call it 'spending time behind enemy lines' living from 94-00 in St.L. Now forced to watch my beloved Chiefs buy wholesale what I once mocked.

Baby Lee
05-15-2001, 01:50 PM
Bowtie - due to my limited intellect, I fear I have no idea what a 'metephore' is.

Regard the beam in thine own eye.

Gaz
05-15-2001, 02:10 PM
JC-Johnny-

I have "weighed in" on this subject before.

I do not condone Clint's "style" of conversation. There is simply no point in asking Clint to clean up his act. We have done so and gotten nothing but abuse in return. When Clint goes too far, I ask the Moderator to step in. I did so recently when Cannibal posted some offensive stuff to the 1st Lady.

I simply hoped that pointing out my reaction to your post might make you rethink the need for shock tactics. It was simply a request. I have no way of enforcing my will upon you, nor would I do so if I could. I can only point out what I found to be comments way outside the realm of acceptable and ask that you temper such comments in the future.

xoxo~
Gaz
Can only ask, not compel.

DaWolf
05-15-2001, 02:14 PM
But Johnny, those veteran free agents WERE stopgaps. Beuerlein even admitted as much after getting released, hoping he could "lach on somewhere and start for 1 or 2 more years, and then slide back into being a backup." And I'm sure Trent Dilfer didn't take any offense to being called a stopgap considering he's having a hard time finding a job as a backup. The reality of the situation is there were 3 options for us to get a veteran QB who would not be a stopgap: A) Resign Grbac. He decided he didn't want to accept our contract offer and wanted BMore. B) Sign Brad Johnson. Unfortunately Johnson elected to take the contract with his homestate Bucs before visiting us. C) Trade for Green.

Any other veteran out there either sucked or was a stopgap. I'm just happy he didn't have a hardon (or, to be more refined, a Viagra induced reaction) for Tony Banks like our Lambs fans buddies were predicting he would.

And as far as the draft, he said Brees wasn't worth a 12th rounder. Maybe he'll turn out to be wrong, but apparently 31 other teams felt he wasn't worth a first round pick either.

So we'll see. Once Grbac left, it was apparent that they wanted Green. Could Vermiel have smokescreened it more? Maybe. But looking at the QB market place, there wasn't enough wood out there to start a fire to produce any smoke in the first place...

Baby Lee
05-15-2001, 02:25 PM
It can be clear for all the world that so-and-so is a 'stop-gap.' but if you're gonna call on him to lead your team, you don't call him that. Particularly someone like Flutie who has battled second-banana status all through his career.

I'm not saying anyone better was out there, or would have otherwise come here. But it is so clear that DV would accept NO ONE else, including Grbac, that I have to credit Carl for getting ANY concessions out of the Rams.

Tomahawk 11
05-15-2001, 06:09 PM
47--

I knew the Gonzo comment would strike a nerve with you. To tell you the truth it struke a nerve with me too. I am not saying that the recievers were all terrible. I am quite sure that Grbac did some stupid stuff. No problem with agreeing with that. My point is that just as many mistakes were made by recievers and runningbacks as were made by Grbac. I have seen Gonzo make some rediculous drops. And no, not all of them were in heavy coverage.

As far as being double and triple covered. You got somewhat of a point. The NFL rule I have always heard is that if you can touch the ball you should have caught it. I certainly couldn't live up to that standard. That is why I am typing about the NFL instead of playing in it.

Am I against the guy? When he is playing against the Chiefs and my beloved Packers, you bet. If he is playing against some other team, I guess it is on a case by case basis. HE DOESN'T SUCK THOUGH.

How's my MOKER Nephew anyway?

47mack
05-15-2001, 07:28 PM
The nephew is good. We received a package today, wonder who it was from???

cdcox
05-16-2001, 09:12 AM
BowtieGuy:

I have had these thoughts rattling around in my head since Elvis Left the Building. Only now, have I been able to distance myself from the situation enough to put my thoughts down in a semi-coherent fashion. I'm sure many former backers have had the same reaction.

Now the weird part is how someone who drives a Yellow '94 F150, straight-six, 5-speed, no radio, no-ac, no-carpet, pick-up could think so much like a guy who goes by Bowtie Guy?:eek: