Wow, I'm at a loss.

[ChiefaRoo]

http://www.startribune.com/587/story/1386023.html

The Idaho Republican arrested June 11 in an MSP restroom entered a guilty plea Aug. 8.

By Mark Craig, Star Tribune

Last update: August 27, 2007 – 9:27 PM

U.S. Sen. Larry Craig, an Idaho Republican, pleaded guilty to disorderly conduct in Minnesota this month after being arrested by a plainclothes police officer investigating complaints of lewd conduct in a men's restroom at the Minneapolis-St. Paul International Airport.
Craig denied the police account of what occurred and said he erred in pleading guilty.

"At the time of this incident, I complained to the police that they were misconstruing my actions," he said in a statement Monday afternoon. "I was not involved in any inappropriate conduct.

"I should have had the advice of counsel in resolving this matter. In hindsight, I should not have pled guilty. I was trying to handle this matter myself quickly and expeditiously."

Craig was arrested at the airport on June 11, according to Roll Call, a Capitol Hill newspaper. According to police reports, Craig kept watching the undercover police officer through a crack in the bathroom stall, Roll Call reported. Craig then entered the next-door stall and placed his luggage against the opening under the stall door.

"My experience has shown that individuals engaging in lewd conduct use their bags to block the view from the front of their stall," said the officer, Sgt. Dave Karsnia.

The report continued: "At 1216 hours, Craig tapped his right foot. I recognized this as a signal used by persons wishing to engage in lewd conduct. Craig tapped his toes several times and moves his foot closer to my foot. ... The presence of others did not seem to deter Craig as he moved his right foot so that it touched the side of my left foot which was within my stall area."

The report said that Craig swiped his hand beneath the stall divider several times and that Karsnia showed his police identification under the stall.

Roll Call reported that Craig was detained about 45 minutes and questioned by officers at the Airport Police Operations Center. At one point, police reports said, Craig handed the arresting officer a business card that identified him as a U.S. senator and said, "What do you think about that?"

Roll Call reported that a Craig spokesman said the incident is a "he said/he said misunderstanding." Craig denied any lewd intentions and told police he has a "wide stance" in the bathroom and reached down to pick up a piece of paper from the floor.

"It should be noted that there was not a piece of paper on the bathroom floor, nor did Craig pick up a piece of paper," Karsnia wrote in the police report.

According to the report, Minneapolis airport police have made "numerous arrests regarding sexual activity in the public restroom."

Craig's arrest was confirmed by Nancy Peters, a spokeswoman for the Hennepin County courts. Peters confirmed the Roll Call report that said Craig pleaded guilty Aug. 8 to a misdemeanor disorderly conduct charge. Craig was fined $1,000 and sentenced to 10 days in jail, Peters said. However, the 10-day sentence was stayed for a year, meaning that Craig avoids jail time unless he is rearrested on a similar charge within a year.

Peters said Craig paid $575 of the fine and won't have to pay the $425 balance as long as he meets the terms of his year-long probation, which will be unsupervised.

Craig, 62, is married and in his third term in the Senate. Craig hasn't said if he plans to run for a fourth term in 2008.

Craig has been one of Republican presidential candidate Mitt Romney's top Senate supporters, serving as a Senate liaison for the campaign since February. As word spread of Craig's guilty plea, a Romney campaign spokesman, Matt Rhoades, said in a statement: "Senator Craig has stepped down from his role with the campaign. He did not want to be a distraction and we accept his decision."

[Mr. Kotter]

Hey, Larry was just "lonely" on a business trip.... :shrug:

:Lin:

:shake:

[patteeu]

WTF? Is it disorderly conduct these days to make contact with your shoes and wave your hand under a stall wall? Is that what I just read?

[Mr. Kotter]

WTF? Is it lewd conduct these days to make contact with your shoes and wave your hand under a stall wall? Is that what I just read?

You REALLY are NOT going to try to defend THIS....are you? :spock:

Any guy comes near me or my hand, in a stall....that doesn't recoil in disgust....wants more then my "hand"....sorry.

Man Law #6 or #7, IIRC.... :hmmm:

Give it up, Patty.... :shake:

[banyon]

WTF? Is it lewd conduct these days to make contact with your shoes and wave your hand under a stall wall? Is that what I just read?


You must be kidding. If he's innocent, then why did he plead guilty?

[patteeu]

You must be kidding. If he's innocent, then why did he plead guilty?

I didn't say he's innocent. At least not in terms of what he was thinking. It sounds to me like he was doing exactly what the officer said he was doing. But was he really doing anything that ought to be considered illegal? It's not like he was caught in any lewd act or anything. He was caught tapping his toe and waving his hand under the stall. Is that illegal?

I think he was foolish to plead guilty and it looks like he's come to the same conclusion.

BTW, I'd say the same thing if this was a democrat.

[BucEyedPea]

He was caught tapping his toe and waving his hand under the stall. Is that illegal?
I laughed at first...but come to think of it, I have done that when my stall has no tp and I need someone to get me some from theirs.
:hmmm:

[patteeu]

I laughed at first...but come to think of it, I have done that when my stall has no tp and I need someone to get me some from theirs.
:hmmm:

I tap my foot all the time. It bugs my wife, especially in church. I never knew about this "signal" thing. I wonder if I've ever given someone the wrong impression.

[BucEyedPea]

I tap my foot all the time. It bugs my wife, especially in church. I never knew about this "signal" thing. I wonder if I've ever given someone the wrong impression.
I know you don't go to church for the message...are you saying you go for the priests? And aren't consciously aware of it? What would Freud say? :hmmm:

[ChiefaRoo]

I don't know guys. These plain clothes vice cops are trained to know what to look for in these kind of situations. I'm guessing these kinds of actions are part in the what to look for handbook.

[Cochise]

"I don't have a square to spare!"

[BucEyedPea]

I don't know guys. These plain clothes vice cops are trained to know what to look for in these kind of situations. I'm guessing these kinds of actions are part in the what to look for handbook.
That sounds like you speak from experience. :hmmm:

[banyon]

I didn't say he's innocent. At least not in terms of what he was thinking. It sounds to me like he was doing exactly what the officer said he was doing. But was he really doing anything that ought to be considered illegal? It's not like he was caught in any lewd act or anything. He was caught tapping his toe and waving his hand under the stall. Is that illegal?



It's only illegal depending on the intent behind the actions. The prosecution would have to prove that at trial.

[banyon]

I laughed at first...but come to think of it, I have done that when my stall has no tp and I need someone to get me some from theirs.
:hmmm:

Yeah...guys don't do that.

[ChiefaRoo]

That sounds like you speak from experience. :hmmm:

Pea. Please. First of all I like girls exclusively. Second of all I like them in places other than a dirty public bathroom. Have you been drinking with Logical tonight? It seems like everyone is going nuts tonight.

[Mr Luzcious]

It's only illegal depending on the intent behind the actions. The prosecution would have to prove that at trial.

Except he plead guilty...

[banyon]

Except he plead guilty...

Yeah. I meant the p/a would have to prove that (if he hadn't pled guilty).

[BucEyedPea]

Roo, I'm just havin' fun with this thread...joking around.

[Adam]

Geez, why does it always seem to be a Republican?

:banghead:

[Cochise]

Yeah...guys don't do that.

They don't play footsie with the guy next to you who's taking a dump either :shake:

What would I do if there were no paper...

This is an airport bathroom, so the coast will probably not be clear to switch stalls when no one is around. Maybe you could carefully go get a fistful of paper towels? I dunno, whatever you do you can't really go sit on a plane with swamp ass.

Of course it goes without saying that asking the guy next to you is right out.

[patteeu]

I know you don't go to church for the message...are you saying you go for the priests? And aren't consciously aware of it? What would Freud say? :hmmm:

I go for my wife (who is a believer) and for my kids (because we both think it's good to give them a chance to be believers and it's always easier to go from believer to nonbeliever than it is to go the other way). As a side benefit, my mother is happy that I returned to church and she fools herself into thinking I did it for personal reasons instead of for the reasons I mentioned. But I'm happy that she's happy about it anyway.

I'm usually daydreaming when the Priest is talking, but nobody but God knows (and now you) know that. ;)

[HolmeZz]

How do you go into a stall without seeing how much TP there is? That's like the first thing I check for.

[BucEyedPea]

Yeah...guys don't do that.
But he was in a stall!!! You mean not even in a stall? Grrrrrroooosssssss!
Guess this handles my question about men using those toilet seat liners.

[BucEyedPea]

How do you go into a stall without seeing how much TP there is? That's like the first thing I check for.
Hey it happens! Not everybody is that methodical.

[Adam]

But he was in a stall!!! You mean not even in a stall? Grrrrrroooosssssss!
Guess this handles my question about men using those toilet seat liners.

They make liners?

[banyon]

But he was in a stall!!! You mean not even in a stall? Grrrrrroooosssssss!
Guess this handles my question about men using those toilet seat liners.

LOL, yeah Cochise's post is pretty much the line of thinking I would go through also to avoid asking anyone else for help.

What would I do if there were no paper...

This is an airport bathroom, so the coast will probably not be clear to switch stalls when no one is around. Maybe you could carefully go get a fistful of paper towels? I dunno, whatever you do you can't really go sit on a plane with swamp ass.

Of course it goes without saying that asking the guy next to you is right out.

:thumb:

[patteeu]

It's only illegal depending on the intent behind the actions. The prosecution would have to prove that at trial.

If I were on a jury, I'd never convict on a set of facts like these.

[HolmeZz]

Who amongst us can honestly say they've never solicited sex in a men's restroom?

[BucEyedPea]

They make liners?
Apparently the men's rooms don't have those either?
They're tissue paper...the kind you see in a bakery or a donut shop when they grap your selection so their hand's don't touch the goods. In some ladies rooms, they have them on one of the walls, usually the back ( unless you're using the handicap person stall, which I usually do because they're more luxurious.) Anyhow, they're in the shape of the toilet seat with a hole in the middle. You use it to line the seat so you don't have to make contact with it. My mom taught me how to make my own when I was a kid out of tp...but now it's great because they're already premade. Very convenient! Cool 'eh?

[banyon]

If I were on a jury, I'd never convict on a set of facts like these.

We don't even have all of the facts that they would use to get intent. They probably had some corroborating witnesses to his prior behavior at the restroom, or at least could've found them before trial. That's probably why he pled so early, to keep the really disgusting stuff from getting out.

[WoodDraw]

If I were on a jury, I'd never convict on a set of facts like these.

I, along with the rest of the sane word, join you in not wanting to convict people based on a short news article. Absent anything other than your speculation, I'll trust the prosecution and original guilty plea though.

[Cochise]

But he was in a stall!!! You mean not even in a stall? Grrrrrroooosssssss!
Guess this handles my question about men using those toilet seat liners.

That's a good point. If there were ass gaskets lying around, you could make do with one of those.

[patteeu]

We don't even have all of the facts that they would use to get intent. They probably had some corroborating witnesses to his prior behavior at the restroom, or at least could've found them before trial. That's probably why he pled so early, to keep the really disgusting stuff from getting out.

Yeah, if there was additional evidence, that could change my opinion, but it would have to be convincing. For example, if someone saw him fondling another guy, I'd be more receptive to charges. The officer's testimony would have to be supporting evidence rather than the heart of the case I think.

[ChiefaRoo]

Roo, I'm just havin' fun with this thread...joking around.

Ok, whew. I thought I was taking crazy pills. Logical is over in the lounge going coo coo for cocoa puffs and then I come over to the nice safe DC board and find Pea making gay jokes. :)

[ChiefaRoo]

Geez, why does it always seem to be a Republican?

:banghead:

It isn't. It's power hungry Pols. who have let the power corrupt them. Bill Clinton stuck cigars .... well you know where.

PS - I don't like the fact that he whipped out his Senator bus. card and basically told the cop how do you like me now. If that's true the guy is an arrogant jerk at best.

[HolmeZz]

...if someone saw him fondling another guy, I'd be more receptive...

Sig material if I've ever seen it.

[Cochise]

Yeah, if there was additional evidence, that could change my opinion, but it would have to be convincing. For example, if someone saw him fondling another guy, I'd be more receptive to charges. The officer's testimony would have to be supporting evidence rather than the heart of the case I think.

You certainly wouldn't think they would try to tack him with those charges based on some foot movement and hand under the stall wall... but if he plead to it... you have to figure that something was going on.

What would be worse IMO than all this business is the bit about the business card. I don't care if he is a pickle smoocher, but trying to use his influence to extricate himself like that is pretty low, if true.

[patteeu]

I, along with the rest of the sane word, join you in not wanting to convict people based on a short news article. Absent anything other than your speculation, I'll trust the prosecution and original guilty plea though.

I've avoided speculating to come to my conclusion about the strength of the case as described. You're the one speculating when you "trust the prosecution and the original guilty plea" whatever that means. I'm not arguing with the guilty plea. If he pled it, he earns the conviction whether he could have beat it or not.

[patteeu]

Sig material if I've ever seen it.

LMAO Yeah, I guess it was a poor choice of words.

[Ugly Duck]

Wow, I'm at a loss.

Why? Neocon regime Republicans have been getting popped up one side and down the other for all types of perversion & corruption. How is this any different than the rest of the BushCo parade of criminals?

[ClevelandBronco]

They don't play footsie with the guy next to you who's taking a dump either :shake:

What would I do if there were no paper...

This is an airport bathroom, so the coast will probably not be clear to switch stalls when no one is around. Maybe you could carefully go get a fistful of paper towels? I dunno, whatever you do you can't really go sit on a plane with swamp ass.

Of course it goes without saying that asking the guy next to you is right out.

Off the top of my head, I'd have to say that if found myself in that situation (no TP) in a crowded airport men's room, I'd swallow my pride and announce in my loudest voice what my predicament was. The purpose of virtually screaming for pity would probably preclude anyone from thinking that I was up to anything immoral and/or illegal.

I'd suggest in my plea that someone could drop something from above rather than handing it underneath as well. I wouldn't just want to assume that my rescuer wasn't a pervert.

[BucEyedPea]

Off the top of my head, I'd have to say that if found myself in that situation (no TP) in a crowded airport men's room, I'd swallow my pride and announce in my loudest voice what my predicament was. The purpose of virtually screaming for pity would probably preclude anyone from thinking that I was up to anything immoral and/or illegal.

I'd suggest in my plea that someone could drop something from above rather than handing it underneath as well. I wouldn't just want to assume that my rescuer wasn't a pervert.

Good choice of words. Gonna have to admit I did resort to this at least once...loud voice no screaming. Because it was a huge restroom and most of the stalls to the left and the right were empty. It worked. We ladies are helpful that way with no suspicions.

BTW do they diaper changing stands in the men's rooms?

[patteeu]

Off the top of my head, I'd have to say that if found myself in that situation (no TP) in a crowded airport men's room, I'd swallow my pride and announce in my loudest voice what my predicament was. The purpose of virtually screaming for pity would probably preclude anyone from thinking that I was up to anything immoral and/or illegal.

I'd suggest in my plea that someone could drop something from above rather than handing it underneath as well. I wouldn't just want to assume that my rescuer wasn't a pervert.

I briefly considered going to the OrangeMane to post a thread explaining that the way to signal that you need more toilet paper if you're ever in a crowded public restroom is to tap your foot and reach under the stall wall, but then I realized that all Broncos fans probably already know what this means so I wouldn't be fooling anyone. :p

[ClevelandBronco]

Good choice of words. Gonna have to admit I did resort to this at least once...loud voice no screaming. Because it was a huge restroom and most of the stalls to the left and the right were empty. It worked. We ladies are helpful that way with no suspicions.

BTW do they diaper changing stands in the men's rooms?

In very many places they do. Depends on when they were built/remodeled.

[ChiefaRoo]

Why? Neocon regime Republicans have been getting popped up one side and down the other for all types of perversion & corruption. How is this any different than the rest of the BushCo parade of criminals?

Don't get carried away dummy. That Jefferson guy down in Louisiana got popped for taking bribes. Bill Clinton was/is a pervert and he was President, JFK screwed around all the time, Barney Frank basically ran an all male brothel out of his DC condo and one of the Kennedy's got so drunked and drugged up he ran his car into a barrier near the capitol building in the middle of the night just last year.

There is plenty of excess and perversion to go around. My point is people in power can and do get corrupted. We should vote these types of people out of power and we most certainly should not trust them with the socialization of medical care or any other intrusion into our lives.

[patteeu]

Good choice of words. Gonna have to admit I did resort to this at least once...loud voice no screaming. Because it was a huge restroom and most of the stalls to the left and the right were empty. It worked. We ladies are helpful that way with no suspicions.

BTW do they diaper changing stands in the men's rooms?

Men don't change diapers, women do. :p

But yes, for some reason they have diaper stands in men's restrooms these days. Lord only knows what kind of public restroom sex takes place on them though.

[BucEyedPea]

In very many places they do. Depends on when they were built/remodeled.
Wow! Who woulda thought.

[ClevelandBronco]

I briefly considered going to the OrangeMane to post a thread explaining that the way to signal that you need more toilet paper if you're ever in a crowded public restroom is to tap your foot and reach under the stall wall, but then I realized that all Broncos fans probably already know what this means so I wouldn't be fooling anyone. :p

Damn, it's good to be back to football season.

[ChiefaRoo]

Men don't change diapers, women do. :p

But yes, for some reason they have diaper stands in men's restrooms these days. Lord only knows what kind of public restroom sex takes place on them though.

They're for Jaz. He's all woman.

[Ugly Duck]

Don't get carried away dummy. That Jefferson guy down in Louisiana got popped for taking bribes. Bill Clinton was/is a pervert and he was President, JFK screwed around all the time, Barney Frank basically ran an all male brothel out of his DC condo and one of the Kennedy's got so drunked and drugged up he ran his car into a barrier near the capitol building in the middle of the night just last year.

There is plenty of excess and perversion to go around.

Oh, no way Roo! You're gonna lose that argument with your wimpy tiny little old list of libs... Republicans are by far the kings of corruption and perversion!

Republican County Constable Larry Dale Floyd was
arrested on suspicion of soliciting sex with an 8-year
old girl.

Republican judge Mark Pazuhanich of Wilkes Barre,
Pennsylvania pled no contest to fondling a 10-year old
girl and was sentenced to 10 years probation.

Republican Party leader Bobby Stumbo of Floyd County,
Kentucky was arrested for having sex with a 5-year old
boy.

Republican teacher and former city councilman John
Collins of Asbury Park, New Jersey pled guilty to
sexually molesting 13 and 14 year old girls.

Republican campaign worker Mark Seidensticker of
Nashua, New Hampshire is a convicted child molester.

Republican Mayor Philip Giordano of Waterbury,
Connecticut is serving a 37-year sentence in federal
prison for sexually abusing 8 and 10-year old girls.

Republican Mayor John Gosek of Oswego, New York was
arrested on charges of soliciting sex from two 15-year
old girls.

Republican County Commissioner David Swartz of
Richland County, Ohio pled guilty to molesting two
girls under the age of 11 and was sentenced to 8 years
in prison.

Republican Speaker of the Puerto Rico House of
Representatives Edison Misla Aldarondo was sentenced
to 10 years in prison for raping his daughter between
the ages of 9 and 17.

Republican Committeeman John R. Curtain of Monroe
County, Pennsylvania was charged with molesting a
teenage boy and unlawful sexual contact with a minor.

Republican anti-abortion activist Howard Scott
Heldreth of Kannapolis, N.C., is a convicted child
rapist in Florida.

Republican zoning supervisor, Boy Scout leader and
Lutheran church president Dennis L. Rader of Witchita,
Kansas pled guilty to performing a sexual act on an
11-year old girl he murdered.

Republican anti-abortion activist Nicholas Morency of
Camden, New Jersey pled guilty to possessing child
pornography on his computer and offering a bounty to
anybody who murders an abortion doctor.

Republican campaign consultant Tom Shortridge of
Soputhbay, California was sentenced to three years
probation for taking nude photographs of a 15-year old
girl.

Republican racist pedophile and United States Senator
Strom Thurmond of South Carolina had sex with a
15-year old black girl which produced a child.

Republican pastor Mike Hintz of Des Moines, Iowa, who
George W. Bush commended during the 2004 presidential
campaign, surrendered to police after admitting to a
sexual affair with a female juvenile.

Republican legislator Peter Dibble of New London,
Connecticut pled no contest to having an inappropriate
relationship with a 13-year-old girl.

Republican advertising consultant Carey Lee Cramer of
Arizona was charged with molesting his 9-year old step
daughter after including her in an anti-Gore
television commercial.

Republican activist Lawrence E. King, Jr. and
Republican lobbyist Craig J. Spence both of
Washington, D.C. organized child sex parties at the
White House during the 1980s.

Republican Congressman Donald “Buz” Lukens of
Columbus, Ohio was found guilty of having sex with a
female minor and sentenced to one month in jail.

Republican fundraiser Richard A. Delgaudio of Burke,
Virginia was found guilty of child porn charges and
paying two teenage girls to pose for sexual photos.

Republican activist Mark A. Grethen of Colorado
Springs. Colorado was convicted on six counts of sex
crimes involving children.

Republican activist Randal David Ankeney of El Paso
County, Arizona pled guilty to attempted sexual
assault on a child.

Republican Congressman Dan Crane of Illinois had sex
with a female minor working as a congressional page.

Republican activist and Christian Coalition and South
Carolina Republican leader Beverly Russell admitted to
an incestuous relationship with his step daughter.

Republican Judge Ronald C. Kline of Orange County,
California was placed under house arrest for child
molestation and possession of child pornography.

Republican congressman and anti-gay activist Robert
Bauman of Maryland was charged with having sex with a
16-year-old boy he picked up at a gay bar.

Republican Committee Chairman and attorney Jeffrey
Patti of Sparta, New Jersey was arrested for
distributing a video clip of a 5-year-old girl being
raped.

Republican activist Marty Glickman of Florida (a.k.a.
“Republican Marty”), was taken into custody by Florida
police on four counts of unlawful sexual activity with
an underage girl and one count of delivering the drug
LSD.

Republican legislative aide Howard L. Brooks of Quartz
Hill, California was charged with molesting a 12-year
old boy and possession of child pornography.

Republican Senate candidate John Hathaway who had
relocated to Maine from Huntsville, Alabama after
having been accused of having sex with his 12-year old
baby sitter and withdrew his candidacy after the
allegations were reported in the media.

Republican preacher Stephen White of West Chester,
Pennsylvania, who demanded a return to traditional
values, was sentenced to jail after offering $20 to a
14-year-old boy for permission to perform oral sex on
him.

Republican talk show host Jon Matthews of Houston,
Texas pled guilty to exposing his genitals to an 11
year old girl.

Republican anti-gay activist Earl “Butch” Kimmerling
of Anderson, Indiana was sentenced to 40 years in
prison for molesting an 8-year old girl after he
attempted to stop a gay couple from adopting her.

Republican Party leader Paul Ingram of Thurston
County, Washington pled guilty to six counts of raping
his daughters and served 14 years in federal prison.

Republican election board official Kevin Coan of St.
Louis, Missouri was sentenced to two years probation
for soliciting sex over the internet from a 14-year
old girl.

Republican politician Andrew Buhr, also of St. Louis,
was charged with two counts of first degree sodomy
with a 13-year old boy.

Republican politician Keith Westmoreland of Kingsport,
Tennessee was arrested on seven felony counts of lewd
and lascivious exhibition to girls under the age of 16
(i.e. exposing himself to children).

Republican anti-abortion activist John Allen Burt of
Pensacola, Florida was found guilty of molesting a
15-year old girl.

Republican County Councilman Keola Childs of Hawaii
County, Hawaii pled guilty to molesting a male child.

Republican activist John Butler of Cass County,
Illinois was charged with criminal sexual assault on a
teenage girl.

Republican candidate Richard Gardner of Clark County,
Nevada admitted to molesting his two daughters.

Republican Councilman and former Marine Jack W.
Gardner of Lancaster, Pennsylvania was convicted of
molesting a 13-year old girl.

Republican County Commissioner Merrill Robert Barter
of Boothbay, Maine pled guilty to unlawful sexual
contact and assault on a teenage boy.

Republican City Councilman Fred C. Smeltzer, Jr. of
Wrightsville Borough, Delaware pled no contest to
raping a 15 year-old girl and served 6-months in
prison.

Republican activist Parker J. Bena pleaded guilty to
possession of child pornography on his home computer
and was sentenced to 30 months in federal prison and
fined $18,000.

Republican parole board officer and former Colorado
state representative, Larry Jack Schwarz, was fired
after child pornography was found in his possession.

Republican strategist and Citadel Military College
graduate Robin Vanderwall of Virginia was convicted in
Virginia on five counts of soliciting sex from boys
and girls over the internet.

Republican city councilman Mark Harris of West Bend,
Wisconsin, who has been described as a “good military
man” and “church goer,” was convicted of repeatedly
having sex with an 11-year-old girl and sentenced to
12 years in prison.

Republican director of the “Young Republican
Federation” Nicholas Elizondo of Bakersfield,
California molested his 6-year old daughter and was
sentenced to six years in prison.

Republican president of the New York City Housing
Development Corp, Russell Harding, pled guilty to
possessing child pornography on his computer.

Republican benefactor of conservative Christian
groups, Richard A. Dasen, Sr. of Kalispell, Montana,
was found guilty of raping a 15-year old girl. Dasen,
62, who is married with grown children and several
grandchildren, has allegedly told police that over the
past decade he paid more than $1 million to have sex
with a large number of young women.

[ChiefaRoo]

You've dug nice and deep. Why don't you be honest with me and the rest of the board and give us the link to the site you referenced for this material and also why don't you post the list of Democrats at all these different levels who are corrupt or are perverts. Listen, this isn't a political thing. This is about how power corrupts human beings. We are all potentially flawed creatures. My point is for our country to work well we have to vote out of office those who have abused their power. I'm a conservative and a traditionalist. Hell if I was just a blind Kool-Aid drinker I would not have posted this thread to begin with.

[Taco John]

I'm having a hard time determining what the crime is here.

[ChiefaRoo]

I'm having a hard time determining what the crime is here.

Read the article about Senator Craig. The cops are quoted as him admitting to lewd conduct in a men's bathroom in Minneapolis.

[Taco John]

But I don't understand what the lewd conduct was. Did they catch him beating the meat in there? What was his crime, and who was it against?

I don't get it.

[ChiefaRoo]

But I don't understand what the lewd conduct was. Did they catch him beating the meat in there? What was his crime, and who was it against?

I don't get it.

I don't know I wasn't there. Seems like they accused him of these charges based on playing footsie with the undercover cop, looking between the gaps in the stall door before he went into his stall and then "waving" his hand underneath the stall with the cop he was playing footsie with. Hell, I don't quite understand it but I can tell you that when I'm in the public toilet firing out a mud puppy I'm not touching, talking or waving to anyone. In fact, I want to be left alone.

[trndobrd]

You've dug nice and deep. Why don't you be honest with me and the rest of the board and give us the link to the site you referenced for this material and also why don't you post the list of Democrats at all these different levels who are corrupt or are perverts. Listen, this isn't a political thing. This is about how power corrupts human beings. We are all potentially flawed creatures. My point is for our country to work well we have to vote out of office those who have abused their power. I'm a conservative and a traditionalist. Hell if I was just a blind Kool-Aid drinker I would not have posted this thread to begin with.


http://recoveringliberal.com/?page_id=765

[ChiefaRoo]

http://recoveringliberal.com/?page_id=765

Where's the list of Dem's?

[trndobrd]

Where's the list of Dem's?



Do your own work!

Typical liberal mentality, expecting everything to be handed to you. :shake:

[Cochise]

Oh, no way Roo! You're gonna lose that argument with your wimpy tiny little old list of libs... Republicans are by far the kings of corruption and perversion!


Are we really devolved around here to attempting to determine the party affiliation of anyone who does anything and using it as a gotcha?

[Radar Chief]

Are we really devolved around here to attempting to determine the party affiliation of anyone who does anything and using it as a gotcha?

“Devolved” would tend to imply that UD had some form of integrity to begin with. ;)

[Brock]

* Voted YES on constitutional ban of same-sex marriage. (Jun 2006)
* Voted NO on adding sexual orientation to definition of hate crimes. (Jun 2002)
* Voted NO on expanding hate crimes to include sexual orientation. (Jun 2000)
* Voted YES on prohibiting same-sex marriage. (Sep 1996)
* Voted NO on prohibiting job discrimination by sexual orientation. (Sep 1996)

[the Talking Can]

so many Republicans, so few glory holes....

[Ugly Duck]

so many Republicans, so few glory holes....

Oh great... now TC is devolving...

[BucEyedPea]

Hell, I don't quite understand it but I can tell you that when I'm in the public toilet firing out a mud puppy I'm not touching, talking or waving to anyone. In fact, I want to be left alone.

Have to concentrate that much huh? I know a guy that reads magazines. You might wanna try multi-tasking it sometime. It's more efficient.

[Cochise]

* Voted YES on constitutional ban of same-sex marriage. (Jun 2006)
* Voted NO on adding sexual orientation to definition of hate crimes. (Jun 2002)
* Voted NO on expanding hate crimes to include sexual orientation. (Jun 2000)
* Voted YES on prohibiting same-sex marriage. (Sep 1996)
* Voted NO on prohibiting job discrimination by sexual orientation. (Sep 1996)

I don't understand why having teh ghey tendencies means you have to support those causes. It's entirely possible to be attracted to men and not think that those are good social policy.

[Chief Henry]

Why is it that people in high positions keep
thinking they can do stuff and get by with it ?

An f'n US Senator should have brains enough to
not do this !!!!

What a dunce and hypocrite.


Maybe he figured that if Ted Kennedy can drive off a bridge and kill a young female staffer, he can
try and get gay sex in an airport bathroom.

Why would any guy want to smoke a pole anyway?
eeeccccckkkkkk

[Fat Elvis]

Apparently the men's rooms don't have those either?
They're tissue paper...the kind you see in a bakery or a donut shop when they grap your selection so their hand's don't touch the goods. In some ladies rooms, they have them on one of the walls, usually the back ( unless you're using the handicap person stall, which I usually do because they're more luxurious.) Anyhow, they're in the shape of the toilet seat with a hole in the middle. You use it to line the seat so you don't have to make contact with it. My mom taught me how to make my own when I was a kid out of tp...but now it's great because they're already premade. Very convenient! Cool 'eh?

One of the funniest graffiti's I've ever seen was a liner dispenser where someone wrote, "Republican National Convention Party Hats."

[BucEyedPea]

I don't understand why having teh ghey tendencies means you have to support those causes. It's entirely possible to be attracted to men and not think that those are good social policy.
Well see, here's the difference:
A certain type liberal Democrat would just make such things legal. That way everybody's good and there's no wrongdoing. If a certain type liberal Dem was caught they'd claim they weren't doing anything really wrong. Whereas a Pub would admit it and then resign in shame. So knowing it is wrong and doing it on a scale of one to ten is a tad, just a tad, better than nothing being right or wrong.

[Fat Elvis]

Republican zoning supervisor, Boy Scout leader and
Lutheran church president Dennis L. Rader of Witchita,
Kansas pled guilty to performing a sexual act on an
11-year old girl he murdered.

If this is all they are singling out about Dennis Rader, then the list, unfortunately, loses a lot of credibility. The guy is the BTK serial killer after all....

[Radar Chief]

If this is all they are singling out about Dennis Rader, then the list, unfortunately, loses a lot of credibility. The guy is the BTK serial killer after all....

“Serial killer”, pfft. He’s a freak’n Republican for god sakes! ;)

[Cochise]

Well see, here's the difference:
A certain type liberal Democrat would just make such things legal. That way everybody's good and there's no wrongdoing. If a certain type liberal Dem was caught they'd claim they weren't doing anything really wrong. Whereas a Pub would admit it and then resign in shame. So knowing it is wrong and doing it on a scale of one to ten is a tad, just a tad, better than nothing being right or wrong.

Supporting that legislation is not necessarily making a moral judgement on that lifestyle. It just means that you feel it's good social policy.

You could for example enjoy using coke, and maybe you even do it every New Year's or something, and still not think that legalizing hard drugs would be a good idea. Does that maybe you hypocritical, I guess in some sense it does. Endorsement or opposition to a policy is just that... a position taken related to the policy.

[patteeu]

Well see, here's the difference:
A certain type liberal Democrat would just make such things legal. That way everybody's good and there's no wrongdoing. If a certain type liberal Dem was caught they'd claim they weren't doing anything really wrong. Whereas a Pub would admit it and then resign in shame. So knowing it is wrong and doing it on a scale of one to ten is a tad, just a tad, better than nothing being right or wrong.

I agree with what Cochise just said. There's no reason to think that Sen. Craig thinks there is anything wrong with gay sex or even with gay sex in a public restroom, although it's possible that he does (and IMO probable in the latter case).

But there's nothing inconsistent between having a live and let live attitude about gays (or even being gay yourself) and being opposed to things such as gay marriage, expanding hate crimes laws, and telling employers that they can't make their own choices on who to hire. Not that you are saying there's an inconsistency here or anything.

I'm about as pro-gay as a straight guy can be and with the exception of the fact that I favor gay marriage or gay unions of some sort, I agree with all of those votes (including the generic notion of a constitutional amendment to prevent judges from imposing gay marriage).

[BucEyedPea]

I agree with what Cochise just said. There's no reason to think that Sen. Craig thinks there is anything wrong with gay sex or even with gay sex in a public restroom, although it's possible that he does (and IMO probable in the latter case).

But there's nothing inconsistent between having a live and let live attitude about gays (or even being gay yourself) and being opposed to things such as gay marriage, expanding hate crimes laws, and telling employers that they can't make their own choices on who to hire. Not that you are saying there's an inconsistency here or anything.
Huh?! Maybe I'm taking your posst wrong, but I don't disagree with Cochise's point nor with what you say here.

There are many people who aren't anti-gay on a personal level who also do not support gay marriage and/or treating it as a public civil right whereby they can enforce their values on employers, restaurant owners, insurance companies via law suits or other means of coercian. They have to live and let live too.

In fact, Justin Raimondo who is gay and a right-libertarian is also in this camp.
My former gay roomate felt the same way. No doubt there are gays that feel the same. It's the militant ativists who want to social-engineer society to a certain paradigm that feel otherwise.

[patteeu]

Huh?! Maybe I'm taking your posst wrong, but I don't disagree with Cochise's point nor with what you say here.

There are many people who aren't anti-gay on a personal level who also do not support gay marriage and/or treating it as a public civil right whereby they can enforce their values on employers, restaurant owners, insurance companies via law suits or other means of coercian. They have to live and let live too.

In fact, Justin Raimondo who is gay and a right-libertarian is also in this camp.
My former gay roomate felt the same way. No doubt there are gays that feel the same. It's the militant ativists who want to social-engineer society to a certain paradigm that feel otherwise.

Yeah, I wasn't trying to say you disagreed with him. It just wasn't clear to me that you interpreted his post the way he intended it. I see now that you must have been just using his post to springboard into a different point, which I can also agree with. We've got a lot of agreement going on here.

I don't think neo-isolationists should be allowed to marry each other though. :D

[Cochise]

I don't think neo-isolationists should be allowed to marry each other though. :D

Well, you know they wouldn't reproduce. They'd have a couple of twin beds Ward and June cleaver style, so that they could stay safely across the room without risk of getting drawn into in any regional activities.

[patteeu]

Well, you know they wouldn't reproduce. They'd have a couple of twin beds Ward and June cleaver style, so that they could stay safely across the room without risk of getting drawn into in any regional activities.

LMAO Yep, don't want to risk any blowback. :)

[BucEyedPea]

Ya' know when someone's position is indefensible when they resort to such comparisons.

[patteeu]

Ya' know when someone's position is indefensible when they resort to such comparisons.

How?

[BucEyedPea]

Don't have time to school you today. It would take much too long and most likely it won't take. It was posted for those who get the idea more.

[DanT]

Damn near the definition of a victimless crime...playing footsie with an entrapping police officer. If there were lewd conduct going on in that bathroom, all the cop would have had to do to stop it would be to walk into the bathroom and announce in a loud voice "Knock it off, you cocks*ckin' bastards." Come to think of it, they ought to have a different citizen do that every day in the Senate Chambers, anyway, especially when lobbyists are present.

[Cochise]

Ya' know when someone's position is indefensible when they resort to such comparisons.

:deevee:

[BucEyedPea]

Awe, dont' cry. Here's a tissue.

[patteeu]

Damn near the definition of a victimless crime...playing footsie with an entrapping police officer. If there were lewd conduct going on in that bathroom, all the cop would have had to do to stop it would be to walk into the bathroom and announce in a loud voice "Knock it off, you cocks*ckin' bastards." Come to think of it, they ought to have a different citizen do that every day in the Senate Chambers, anyway, especially when lobbyists are present.

Yeah. I wouldn't call it entrapment in the legal sense of the word, but unless there's a smoking gun left out of the story, this is several steps beyond those cases where they lure the internet perv to a rendezvous with what he thinks is a horny, underage keyboard pal. At least in those cases, they usually collect some pretty specific statements from the suspect about his intentions before they bust him. Tapping your foot and waving your hand under the stall aren't exactly in the same league in terms of unmistakable indicators. And in this case there's absolutely no reason to think that the suspect has his sights set on someone underage so there isn't the pressing concern about protecting our kids that might make aggressive enforcement techniques attractive to some people.

[ChiefaRoo]

Yeah. I wouldn't call it entrapment in the legal sense of the word, but unless there's a smoking gun left out of the story, this is several steps beyond those cases where they lure the internet perv to a rendezvous with what he thinks is a horny, underage keyboard pal. At least in those cases, they usually collect some pretty specific statements from the suspect about his intentions before they bust him. Tapping your foot and waving your hand under the stall aren't exactly in the same league in terms of unmistakable indicators. And in this case there's absolutely no reason to think that the suspect has his sights set on someone underage so there isn't the pressing concern about protecting our kids that might make aggressive enforcement techniques attractive to some people.

I'll admit. I don't really understand all of the "signs" the cops are talking about. I am just assuming they have some sort of "playbook" that they go off of when the train the officer on what to look for. It's a very strange story.

[patteeu]

I'll admit. I don't really understand all of the "signs" the cops are talking about. I am just assuming they have some sort of "playbook" that they go off of when the train the officer on what to look for. It's a very strange story.

Let's assume that he was going through all the right signs to pick up a gay guy in a bathroom and lets further assume that in most cases that type of "connection" results in illegally lewd public bathroom sex. That doesn't mean that the Senator couldn't have been trying to identify a willing partner that he would have asked to come back to his hotel room with him for legal private sex. I just don't think this level of behavior ought to constitute a crime and, in the absence of some additional facts (e.g. a verbal solicitation), I don't think there's enough to show intent beyond a reasonable doubt.

They don't arrest prostitutes for asking if you want some company even when they are serial offenders.

Having said that, I think this guy is toast politically. Based on what I heard on the radio and in Sen. Craig's statement, it sounds like it could be a left-wing gay activist hit job.

[DanT]

I'll admit. I don't really understand all of the "signs" the cops are talking about. I am just assuming they have some sort of "playbook" that they go off of when the train the officer on what to look for. It's a very strange story.

I've used bathrooms all over the country and, apparently, I know all that I need to know about whatever the "signs" are. I know, for example, not to put my foot near the neighbor's foot and I damn sure know to move my foot if it makes contact with the neighbor. I sure have never seen anybody waving their hands under my stall divider. As far as I'm concerned, if gay cruisers have developed "signs" that keep them from bothering me, then any cops acting in bizarre ways to snare gay cruisers are wasting time. I want to know what the cop did when Sen. Craig supposedly touched the cop's foot with his foot. I also want to know how close the two men's feet were when Sen. Craig was tapping his toes. It could easily be the case that the cop sent signals to Sen. Craig that wouldn't have been sent by anyone not looking for a hookup.

This, to me, sounds like a perfectly ridiculous example of cops making up problems.

[DanT]

It would be funny if Senator Craig were to come out in support of Rep. Paul's Presidential campaign now that he's left Sen. Romney's campaign. I bet Ron Paul isn't interested in policing nonexistent problems.

[HolmeZz]

What exactly are we defending here if he pled guilty?

[patteeu]

It would be funny if Senator Craig were to come out in support of Rep. Paul's Presidential campaign now that he's left Sen. Romney's campaign. I bet Ron Paul isn't interested in policing nonexistent problems.

I bet he isn't either. I bet he also isn't very interested in a radioactive supporter who was subject to those misdirected policing actions.

BTW, I'm a neo-isolationist when it comes to my bathroom stall practices.

[DanT]

BTW, I'm a neo-isolationist when it comes to my bathroom stall practices.

ROFL

[mlyonsd]

Craig denied any lewd intentions and told police he has a "wide stance"I wonder if he has quick foot work. How old is the guy? Maybe Herm should try him at LT.

Seriously, you can't make this stuff up.

[BucEyedPea]

BTW, I'm a neo-isolationist when it comes to my bathroom stall practices.

Obviously, I'm not. I'm an interventionist so long as it's in my personal interests.

[Taco John]

What exactly are we defending here if he pled guilty?



I'm not trying to defend anything. I'm trying to understand what he did that was a lewd act. Apparently, it was some sort of solicitation.

I think he's a moron for pleading guilty to this thing. He apparently wanted it to go away quickly, so whatever it is, he's acting guilty.

[HolmeZz]

I'm not trying to defend anything. I'm trying to understand what he did that was a lewd act. Apparently, it was some sort of solicitation.

I think he's a moron for pleading guilty to this thing. He apparently wanted it to go away quickly, so whatever it is, he's acting guilty.

From what I've been hearing on the internets, there is a kinda gay code in the bathroom for finding out if a guy is interested. Apparently Senator Craig knew exactly what he was doing.

[patteeu]

I'm not trying to defend anything. I'm trying to understand what he did that was a lewd act. Apparently, it was some sort of solicitation.

I think he's a moron for pleading guilty to this thing. He apparently wanted it to go away quickly, so whatever it is, he's acting guilty.

Yep. Same.

[patteeu]

From what I've been hearing on the internets, there is a kinda gay code in the bathroom for finding out if a guy is interested. Apparently Senator Craig knew exactly what he was doing.

Is "on the internets" gay code for "in the bathhouses" by any chance? Just checking. :Poke:

[HolmeZz]

Is "on the internets" gay code for "in the bathhouses" by any chance? Just checking. :Poke:

Nah, but I know a few of teh gheyz. They knew about all this kinda stuff. It's like when Jeep owners wave to each other when they see a fellow Jeepster on the road, except only less gay.

[patteeu]

Nah, but I know a few of teh gheyz. They knew about all this kinda stuff. It's like when Jeep owners wave to each other when they see a fellow Jeepster on the road, except only less gay.

A few years ago, I read a top 10 list of gay vehicles on a website and a Red Jeep Wrangler was #1. The Mazda Miata was #2. Coincidentally, or maybe not so coincidentally, the two gay men I know best (I know what you're thinking, haha) drove those two types of cars. Maybe those drivers' waves are more than meets the eye.

[banyon]

BTW The Dems timed this perfectly for the election campaign, right?...Er, oh I guess not. :huh:

[Taco John]

Larry Craig won't survive this scandal in Idaho.

[banyon]

Larry Craig won't survive this scandal in Idaho.

I know that, I was referring, perhaps too obliquely to some posts in the Mark Foley threads a while back.

[Hydrae]

Damn near the definition of a victimless crime...playing footsie with an entrapping police officer. If there were lewd conduct going on in that bathroom, all the cop would have had to do to stop it would be to walk into the bathroom and announce in a loud voice "Knock it off, you cocks*ckin' bastards." Come to think of it, they ought to have a different citizen do that every day in the Senate Chambers, anyway, especially when lobbyists are present.


I would pay money to see that!

[Taco John]

http://cbs13.com/video/?id=24308@kovr.dayport.com

[Adept Havelock]

Having said that, I think this guy is toast politically. Based on what I heard on the radio and in Sen. Craig's statement, it sounds like it could be a left-wing gay activist hit job.

:hmmm:

As the original article states:

Craig was arrested at the airport on June 11, according to Roll Call, a Capitol Hill newspaper. According to police reports, Craig kept watching the undercover police officer through a crack in the bathroom stall, Roll Call reported.

I guess the 9/11 conspiracy nuts had a spare tinfoil hat for you. Wear it with pride.

[Ugly Duck]

Craig kept watching the undercover police officer through a crack in the bathroom stall

Was the cop doing something to attract the Republican's attention? Dangling some kinda bait or something to get the Republican to peek?

[Adept Havelock]

Was the cop doing something to attract the Republican's attention? Dangling some kinda bait or something to get the Republican to peek?

ROFL

Oh, I'm sure he was just checking...and re-checking...and re-re-checking if the stall was occupied or not.

[Ultra Peanut]

Closeted Republicans are why the right has such a bad impression of gay people.

[Laz]

Closeted Republicans are why the right has such a bad impression of gay people.
thinking that Gay people are evil sinners sent by satan to corrupt mankind is why the right has such a bad impression of gay people.

[Ultra Peanut]

A vicious cycle.

[jettio]

Damn near the definition of a victimless crime...playing footsie with an entrapping police officer. If there were lewd conduct going on in that bathroom, all the cop would have had to do to stop it would be to walk into the bathroom and announce in a loud voice "Knock it off, you cocks*ckin' bastards." Come to think of it, they ought to have a different citizen do that every day in the Senate Chambers, anyway, especially when lobbyists are present.

Now that you planted that seed, it is going to be real hard not to say that whenever going into an airport bathroom or the senate.

Thanks a lot.

[Ugly Duck]

Just heard on CNN: "Craig comes out swinging"

[CRONUS]

That Senator might have a case for entrapment but seems like his conduct also is questionable for a public restroom.

[HolmeZz]

Dateline: To Catch a Senator.

[Ultra Peanut]

<object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/0_Vs5570pKw"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/0_Vs5570pKw" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>

[ChiefaRoo]

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m13/buyingguy/clintonGermany1.jpg

[Ugly Duck]

What if... what if Republican Congressman Mark Foley (R) and Republican Senator David Vitter (R) and Republican Senator Craig (R) and Republican evangelist Ted Haggart (R) all get the same jail cell? They just might request to do extra time....

http://thepriceoflife.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/08/Mugshot.jpg

http://thepriceoflife.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/08/pimpin.jpg

[Saggysack]

That Senator might have a case for entrapment but seems like his conduct also is questionable for a public restroom.

Entrapment? For the catch all offense of Disorderdly Conduct, against a police officer no less. Not a chance in hell.

[Saggysack]

But I don't understand what the lewd conduct was. Did they catch him beating the meat in there? What was his crime, and who was it against?

I don't get it.

You don't have to exhibit lewd behavior to be charged and convicted of Disorderly Conduct.

[Saggysack]

I'm not trying to defend anything. I'm trying to understand what he did that was a lewd act. Apparently, it was some sort of solicitation.

I think he's a moron for pleading guilty to this thing. He apparently wanted it to go away quickly, so whatever it is, he's acting guilty.

I don't think you exactly understand what Disorderly Conduct is. It is a catch all offense. Here is the stature for Minnesota.

609.72 DISORDERLY CONDUCT.
Subdivision 1. Crime. Whoever does any of the following in a public or private place,
including on a school bus, knowing, or having reasonable grounds to know that it will, or will
tend to, alarm, anger or disturb others or provoke an assault or breach of the peace, is guilty of
disorderly conduct, which is a misdemeanor:
(1) Engages in brawling or fighting; or
(2) Disturbs an assembly or meeting, not unlawful in its character; or
(3) Engages in offensive, obscene, abusive, boisterous, or noisy conduct or in offensive,
obscene, or abusive language tending reasonably to arouse alarm, anger, or resentment in others.
A person does not violate this section if the person's disorderly conduct was caused by
an epileptic seizure.
Subd. 2.[Repealed, 1969 c 226 s 1]
Subd. 3. Caregiver; penalty for disorderly conduct. A caregiver, as defined in section
609.232, who violates the provisions of subdivision 1 against a vulnerable adult, as defined in
section 609.232, may be sentenced to imprisonment for not more than one year or to payment of a
fine of not more than $3,000, or both.
History: 1963 c 753 art 1 s 609.72; 1967 c 242 s 1; 1971 c 23 s 71; 1988 c 689 art 2 s 236;
1991 c 279 s 34; 1994 c 636 art 2 s 46; 1995 c 229 art 2 s 7

[Taco John]

I don't see which part of that he broke. But he pled guilty to it, nonetheless.

If they wanted to nab the guy for solicitation, they should just nab him for solicitation.

[Saggysack]

I don't see which part of that he broke. But he pled guilty to it, nonetheless.

If they wanted to nab the guy for solicitation, they should just nab him for solicitation.

I'm sure playing tootsie in a bathroom stall with someone in the next stall, who doesn't welcome the idea of it, perfectly fits (3) in Subdivision 1. But like I said, Disorderly Conduct is a catch all offense. I'm willing to bet the majority of us could be charged with it on a daily basis.

[Saggysack]

My feelings on Craig is, I don't really care if he likes man lovin. That's his personal choice. I do however think he is a hypocrite. Be the person who you are and don't feel ashamed about it. I will agree with him on one thing, he isn't gay. He is a sexually repressed bi-sexual in denial.

[patteeu]

:hmmm:

As the original article states:

Craig was arrested at the airport on June 11, according to Roll Call, a Capitol Hill newspaper. According to police reports, Craig kept watching the undercover police officer through a crack in the bathroom stall, Roll Call reported.

I guess the 9/11 conspiracy nuts had a spare tinfoil hat for you. Wear it with pride.

As if that quote from the article is relevant to my comment. :rolleyes:

[patteeu]

I'm sure playing tootsie in a bathroom stall with someone in the next stall, who doesn't welcome the idea of it, perfectly fits (3) in Subdivision 1. But like I said, Disorderly Conduct is a catch all offense. I'm willing to bet the majority of us could be charged with it on a daily basis.

That's a problem, IMO. When laws are so broad that almost anything can be considered illegal, it's a problem.

[Amnorix]

That's a problem, IMO. When laws are so broad that almost anything can be considered illegal, it's a problem.

There's a rule of general application that prevents that. It's called "void for vagueness".

Any law that is so vague that a person of ordinary intelligence doesn't know what is prescribed will be void. The point is that a person needs to be a chance to read/understand the law and know what he can/can't do.

Just because a law is widely violated on a daily basis doesn't make it improper. Witness speeding laws, etc.

The law in question is a standard one involving public conduct, and has generally been upheld as far as I know. It is, of course, broad, but it's designed to be a catch-all for improper behavior in public. You can't have a law that details EVERY little thing that might be improper.

[PunkinDrublic]

Wow Foley, Haggard and now this guy. But keep whining about Clinton. More leading by example by the morals and values crowd.

[DanT]

I'm sure playing tootsie in a bathroom stall with someone in the next stall, who doesn't welcome the idea of it, perfectly fits (3) in Subdivision 1. But like I said, Disorderly Conduct is a catch all offense. I'm willing to bet the majority of us could be charged with it on a daily basis.

You're missing on the key fact that the guy in the next stall did welcome the idea of it. The entire reason for the cop being there was to play footsie or otherwise signal to the other guy that escalation was welcome. The cop created a bogus situation and then wants folks to act like the situation was different from what it is. If Senator Craig had played footsie with a man in an adjacent stall, I'd bet that it was because the man in the adjacent stall behaved in a manner that Senator Craig construed as welcoming.

[DanT]

Just hazarding a wild guess here, I doubt that someone could get elected Senator in Idaho, cruise for gay sex and be absolutely clueless as to what is or isn't an indication from a stranger that advances would be welcome.

[patteeu]

There's a rule of general application that prevents that. It's called "void for vagueness".

Any law that is so vague that a person of ordinary intelligence doesn't know what is prescribed will be void. The point is that a person needs to be a chance to read/understand the law and know what he can/can't do.

Just because a law is widely violated on a daily basis doesn't make it improper. Witness speeding laws, etc.

The law in question is a standard one involving public conduct, and has generally been upheld as far as I know. It is, of course, broad, but it's designed to be a catch-all for improper behavior in public. You can't have a law that details EVERY little thing that might be improper.

Laws that use a "we'll know it when we see it" principle are inherently vague and provide opportunities for abuse, IMO. And in this case, I doubt that the police officer gave Craig any reason to believe his advances were unwanted or would cause him to be "disturbed." I know this is common legislative practice, but my problem is with the fact that we have built up such a web of laws and layered them with these catch-all laws to the point that most people, arguably, break one law or another without even realizing it every day. I have no problem considering it criminal to actually going through with the sex act in the public bathroom or harassing someone who you have reason to believe isn't willing, but I have a problem with the applicability of this statute in this case (based on our limited view of the facts in the article).

I don't know the gay signal system that is apparently in place, but I'd imagine that if they've worked out a set of signals for the guy in Senator Craig's position to use to make an advance, they've probably worked out a response signal for the "target" to use if he's interested. The article doesn't mention it, but I wouldn't be surprised if the police officer reacted receptively to the initial signal. IMO, that should take this kind of conduct out of the vague catch-all statute in question. If my theory is correct, I'd argue that Senator Craig didn't have any reasonable grounds to expect his advance to alarm, anger or disturb anyone. Now if he were to actually proceed to engage in a sex act in the public restroom, that would be a different story.

[jettio]

Maybe the original citation was for lewd conduct and the plea bargain offer was disorderly conduct.

If he made a knowing plea of guilty to a charge that he thought was going to sound more acceptable and the details would not be made public, he would have trouble making a case that he was wrongfully charged with disorderly conduct.

He could file a motion to set aside his guilty plea and, under these circumstances, you would have to expect that the judge would grant it, and if he missed a deadline for filing the judge would probably allow the late filing.

If he sincerely has misgivings about his plea, he should file the motion to set aside.

[Ugly Duck]

Wow Foley, Haggard and now this guy. But keep whining about Clinton. More leading by example by the morals and values crowd.

Don't forget Republican Pervs Vitter & Cunningham & that Republican swinger with the Star Trek wife.

[penchief]

Don't forget Republican Pervs Vitter & Cunningham & that Republican swinger with the Star Trek wife.

Or that administration plant in the White House press room that was running his own website. Or that cross-dressing Rudy.

Now that you mention it, just what is going on with the superior morals crowd?

[patteeu]

I sense a lot of repressed gay hate coming from the left here. Oh well, I guess it's better to get it out here than to have you guys losing control and going out to find gay men in business suits to beat up. Carry on.

[PunkinDrublic]

Or that administration plant in the White House press room that was running his own website. Or that cross-dressing Rudy.

Now that you mention it, just what is going on with the superior morals crowd?

Heckofa job protecting marriage.

[Ultra Peanut]

I sense a lot of repressed gay hate coming from the left here. Oh well, I guess it's better to get it out here than to have you guys losing control and going out to find gay men in business suits to beat up. Carry on.I love this tactic. "Laughing at hypocrites? YOU HATE GAY PEOPLE WHERE IS YOUR TOLERANCE NOW!!!!!" LMAO

[patteeu]

I love this tactic. "Laughing at hypocrites? YOU HATE GAY PEOPLE WHERE IS YOUR TOLERANCE NOW!!!!!" LMAO

I love this tactic, pretend to be laughing because you've detected hypocrisy but be sure not to laugh at all kinds of hypocrisy, only that coming from the other side and particularly that which involves TEH GHEY!!!!

[Adept Havelock]

As if that quote from the article is relevant to my comment. :rolleyes:

:rolleyes:

Based on what I heard on the radio and in Sen. Craig's statement, it sounds like it could be a left-wing gay activist hit job.

Well, I'm trying to figure out how this was a "Gay Activist Hit Job" as you suggested it might be, when the police statement clearly states Craig was scoping out the officer through the crack between the door and frame. This, well before any "misinterpreted actions".

I'd say that made it quite relevant.

As UD suggested, I wonder what "bait" this radical Leftist Gay-Activist Police Officer was using to entrap the (no longer quite as) Distinguished Gentleman from Idaho.

Ah yes, when all else fails, play the homophobia card. Good patteeu. Have a cookie. It'll go well with your tinfoil hat.

Personally, I find it rather sad McCain, Coleman and others are already asking him to resign. I'd think the GOP would want to take this opportunity to show what a "big tent" party they have become. I also note they are calling for him to resign, but not Vitter for the prostitution bit. Perhaps the fact the Louisiana has a Dem Governor and Idaho a Repub is more of a concern for them than the "morals" they claim are the basis for their request. Either that, or they believe it's worse because of the "OMG teh Ghey!!!!!" factor. :shrug:

[patteeu]

:rolleyes:



Well, I'm trying to figure out how this was a "Gay Activist Hit Job" as you suggested it might be, when the police statement clearly states Craig was scoping out the officer through the crack between the door and frame. This, well before any "misinterpreted actions".

I'd say that made it quite relevant. :shrug:

As UD suggested, I wonder what "bait" this radical Leftist Gay-Activist Police Officer was using to entrap the (no longer quite as) Distinguished Gentleman from Idaho.

Ah yes, when all else fails, play the homophobia card. Good patteeu. Have a cookie.



As I implied with my previous response, I think your logic is weak/nonexistent here. Your explanation doesn't change my mind. I don't think the reported fact that Craig was scoping out the officer before entering the stall in any way precludes the idea that a hit job took place. That's what makes your quote irrelevant, IMO, and I still believe that to be the case.

And I didn't say a hit job actually took place, I said that one could have taken place. I said this based on what I'd heard on the radio about an apparent campaign being waged over the course of months by at least one gay activist blogger who was trying to out Senator Craig and by a local Idaho newspaper that was apparently digging into the story. And while I do believe there is truth behind that story, I now believe that it's unlikely that it is related to this arrest based on (a) the fact that the officer was in the bathroom not as the result of a specific complaint (as I'd originally misunderstood) but as the result of a history of complaints, and (b) the fact that it took so long for this story to get out to the public.

As an afterthought, I wonder if Ultra Peanut thinks it's anti-gay for a gay activist blogger (or anyone else for that matter) to make an effort to try to damage gay politicians by outing them just because they don't like their political views. :hmmm:

[Adept Havelock]

As I implied with my previous response, I think your logic is weak/nonexistent here. Your explanation doesn't change my mind. I don't think the reported fact that Craig was scoping out the officer before entering the stall in any way precludes the idea that a hit job took place. That's what makes your quote irrelevant, IMO, and I still believe that to be the case.

And I didn't say a hit job actually took place, I said that one could have taken place. I said this based on what I'd heard on the radio about an apparent campaign being waged over the course of months by at least one gay activist blogger who was trying to out Senator Craig and by a local Idaho newspaper that was apparently digging into the story. And while I do believe there is truth behind that story, I now believe that it's unlikely that it is related to this arrest based on (a) the fact that the officer was in the bathroom not as the result of a specific complaint (as I'd originally misunderstood) but as the result of a history of complaints, and (b) the fact that it took so long for this story to get out to the public.




FYI- Read a bit closer and you'll note I specifically stated you didn't say a "Hit Job" took place. Only that you suggested it was possible. ;)


Hey, you want to buy into or kick around conspiracy theories, fine by me. :shrug:

I prefer Occam's razor. To me, it's pretty simple. A politico was less than discreet, got popped for it, and is trying to cover it up and make it go away. A bit reminiscent of early in the Vick story, IMO.

Anyway, I'll take the sworn word of an officer of the Law long before I'll take the word of any damn congresscritter.

Are other politicos taking advantage? Probably. Nature of the beast, innit?

[penchief]

I sense a lot of repressed gay hate coming from the left here. Oh well, I guess it's better to get it out here than to have you guys losing control and going out to find gay men in business suits to beat up. Carry on.

Hmmm. It seems that the superior intellect of ChiefsPlanet is not capable of discerning between sarcasm and ignorance. Shocking.

I think he knows better but his partisanship will not allow him to acknowledge hypocricy within the republican party. He is the narrow-minded super hero known as "THE RATIONALIZER."

He can rationalize anything. He can rationalize your fears away. He can rationalize your fears to stay. Whatever it is that serves as sway.

But what he can't do is fix it when it goes astray.

Not yet, anyway.

[Saggysack]

You're missing on the key fact that the guy in the next stall did welcome the idea of it. The entire reason for the cop being there was to play footsie or otherwise signal to the other guy that escalation was welcome. The cop created a bogus situation and then wants folks to act like the situation was different from what it is. If Senator Craig had played footsie with a man in an adjacent stall, I'd bet that it was because the man in the adjacent stall behaved in a manner that Senator Craig construed as welcoming.

I didn't miss anything. Sitting in a public bathroom stall is not a welcome sign to play footsie. Undercover cop or not.

I'm going to have to watch myself the next time I use a public restroom. I don't want anyone thinking I'm setting out my welcome mat for some bathroom butt****ing.

[DanT]

I didn't miss anything. Sitting in a public bathroom stall is not a welcome sign to play footsie. Undercover cop or not.

I'm going to have to watch myself the next time I use a public restroom. I don't want anyone thinking I'm setting out my welcome mat for some bathroom butt****ing.


Thanks for the reply, Saggysack. If I'm guessing correctly, neither of us has ever had anybody play footsie with us while we were in a public bathroom stall. The cop has had someone play footsie with him while he was in a public bathroom stall. Personally, I think the way that the cop acted while he was being paid to conduct a "sting" operation was importantly different than the way that I act when I'm using a public bathroom stall. I'm not convinced that the "crime" that the cop was fighting would have existed but for the cop's own behavior. However, I can understand why someone might presume that it would have.