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Logical
08-29-2007, 02:34 AM
If so how will he come to power?

ClevelandBronco
08-29-2007, 02:48 AM
You pose two questions then, Logical.

Do I believe the Anti-Christ is amongst us?

No.

If so, how will he come to power?

He won't.

What a crappy thread this will be.

DenverChief
08-29-2007, 03:15 AM
If so how will he come to power?


Yes

Aren't you already a MOD?

ClevelandBronco
08-29-2007, 03:16 AM
Yes

Aren't you already a MOD?
No, not on Chiefs Planet.

Maybe he moderates another forum that we can't understand yet.

big nasty kcnut
08-29-2007, 03:18 AM
The anti christ is real and his name is brian second he already have power.

ClevelandBronco
08-29-2007, 03:22 AM
The anti christ is real and his name is brian second he already have power.

As long as you've begun the process of making a comedian or an ass of yourself, would you like to flesh out your psychoses?

KurtCobain
08-29-2007, 05:40 AM
GoChiefs?

And he'll come to full power when he sees LJ nude.

DenverChief
08-29-2007, 05:55 AM
LJ nude.


LMAO this post is worthless without pics......

chagrin
08-29-2007, 06:03 AM
Come on dude, you have no imagination anymore

TN_Chief
08-29-2007, 06:12 AM
Do you believe the anti-Christ is among us?See my avatar.

Dr. Facebook Fever
08-29-2007, 06:14 AM
If so how will he come to power?
mirror.

Saggysack
08-29-2007, 06:20 AM
Of course. There are millions of people that oppose Christ. It doesn't take a brain surgeon to figure that out.

DaKCMan AP
08-29-2007, 06:30 AM
If so how will he come to power?

Voted to power by RWRNJs, now this can be moved to DC forum :D

Bwana
08-29-2007, 06:43 AM
Carl Peterson?

a1na2
08-29-2007, 06:55 AM
If so how will he come to power?

Read Revelations. Best source for your question. Then choose what you want to believe.

StcChief
08-29-2007, 07:54 AM
sHillary and she about to come to power

Ari Chi3fs
08-29-2007, 07:58 AM
Dubya is teh debbil.

http://www.bushisantichrist.com/

C-Mac
08-29-2007, 08:18 AM
"Young children, it is the last hour, and, just as you have heard that antichrist is coming, even now there have come to be many antichrists" -1 John 2:18

Sure appears like they have been around for quite a while.

BucEyedPea
08-29-2007, 08:39 AM
Dubya is teh debbil.

http://www.bushisantichrist.com/
How could this be? The real AC is a man that has no need for women.

Simply Red
08-29-2007, 09:08 AM
no

StcChief
08-29-2007, 09:12 AM
How could this be? The real AC is a man that has no need for women.
sHillary is a man in disguise. and has no need for women

but isn't from Eastern Europe so I guess she out of the question.

pikesome
08-29-2007, 09:14 AM
I can't believe it hasn't been typed:

Yes and it already happened, Carl Peterson's been the GM for 18 years.

boogblaster
08-29-2007, 09:49 AM
You guys apparently haven't met my wife ....

Jilly
08-29-2007, 09:52 AM
You guys apparently haven't met my wife ....

ROFL

StcChief
08-29-2007, 09:57 AM
You guys apparently haven't met my wife ....
ROFL

or my X-wife.

El Jefe
08-29-2007, 10:01 AM
No I dont believe he is among us, but he will come eventually. He will unite the world under one religion, then when you see this starting to happen, be afraid. Watch Left Behind if you have any questions. Whenever I go in depth on this subject I get blasted, but I will continue to get blasted on here so, oh well.

StcChief
08-29-2007, 10:06 AM
No I dont believe he is among us, but he will come eventually. He will unite the world under one religion, then when you see this starting to happen, be afraid. Watch Left Behind if you have any questions. Whenever I go in depth on this subject I get blasted, but I will continue to get blasted on here so, oh well.
I've read most of the Left Behind books. This will be Scary place if it pans out that way.

Cochise
08-29-2007, 10:07 AM
Read Revelations.

There's no S. It's one revelation.

El Jefe
08-29-2007, 10:14 AM
I've read most of the Left Behind books. This will be Scary place if it pans out that way.


Thats a really good series of books, where the Theology behind them is very accurate (with the Bible). I know thats something that was stressed in creating the series. It will be a very scary time, if you are left when the rapture happens.

Cochise
08-29-2007, 10:15 AM
I've read most of the Left Behind books. This will be Scary place if it pans out that way.

There are several competing theories to that relatively recent one. This is a pretty good book but it's kind of heavy reading.

http://www.amazon.com/Man-Sin-Uncovering-Truth-Antichrist/dp/0801066069

BIG_DADDY
08-29-2007, 10:15 AM
sHillary and she about to come to power

:thumb: Pretty much.

Jilly
08-29-2007, 10:17 AM
Thats a really good series of books, where the Theology behind them is very accurate (with the Bible). I know thats something that was stressed in creating the series. It will be a very scary time, if you are left when the rapture happens.


:rolleyes: Those books are full of shit and it's HORRIBLE theology that's behind them.

Ultra Peanut
08-29-2007, 10:18 AM
"Young children, it is the last hour, and, just as you have heard that antichrist is coming, even now there have come to be many antichrists" -1 John 2:18

Sure appears like they have been around for quite a while.If an hour is this long in BibleTime™, how long were the days?

Buddy Rich
08-29-2007, 10:21 AM
If an hour is this long in BibleTime™, how long were the days?

I'd guess 24 times as long?

Cochise
08-29-2007, 10:23 AM
If an hour is this long in BibleTime™, how long were the days?

I didn't know peanuts could type.

phisherman
08-29-2007, 10:26 AM
any movie w/ kirk cameron in it gets instantly written off as crap by me...no matter how good the books are

Molitoth
08-29-2007, 10:33 AM
Won't the anticrist also bring a worldwide currency system?

How fast is the Euro growing?

ChiefsOne
08-29-2007, 10:48 AM
There are a whole bunch of them there Antichrist living in Oakland.

C-Mac
08-29-2007, 11:00 AM
"This is the antichrist, the one that denies the Father and the Son" 1 John 2:22

"For many deceivers have gone forth into the world, persons not confessing Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist." - 2 John 7

"Furthermore, this is the antichrist’s inspired expression which you have heard was coming, and now it is already in the world" - 1 John 4:3

"Young children, it is the last hour, and, just as you have heard that antichrist is coming, even now there have come to be many antichrists" -1 John 2:18


I still dont understand why all the whoopla. Its pretty simple to see that the antichrist(s) in its broadest sense refers to all who oppose or lyingly claim to be the Christ or his representatives. So why get so worked up about one(s) all of a sudden showing up, when they obviously are already here and have been here for quite a long time?

El Jefe
08-29-2007, 11:01 AM
:rolleyes: Those books are full of shit and it's HORRIBLE theology that's behind them.


Are you serious?

Simply Red
08-29-2007, 11:03 AM
I haven't confirmed this but I believe it's Cheryl Ladd. Don't say anything yet.

Cochise
08-29-2007, 11:05 AM
Won't the anticrist also bring a worldwide currency system?

How fast is the Euro growing?

There are a few general schools of thought.

Some people subscribe to a system that most people in the United States in modern times are familiar with. That idea holds that the events depicted in Revelation are largely in the future, and that at the climax of the period of tribulation on earth Christ will return and reign for a thousand years before the final order is put in place.

Others might say that the 1000 year reign is symbolic of the church age which we are in currently, and that whenever the church age ends, Christ will return to earth and the final order of things will be put into place at that time. This contrasts with the previously stated theory, which encapsulates the common ideas about plagues, one world government, an antichrist who is one actual person, etc., in the idea that there is nothing left to be fulfilled, and that Christ could return at any moment to draw history to a close.

Those in this school, which I lean towards but am ultimately not yet decided upon, would say that a large number of the events in Revelation have already taken place. One viewpoint is that Revelation was written shortly before those events and that the primary audience for that portion was the people who would live through them, that the 'beast' depicted in the book could be mapped to the Roman Empire and specifically Nero, and they culminated in the destruction of the Jerusalem in 70 AD.

It's interesting stuff to read about. However, there are more theories than the one that makes the best theatre.

Jilly
08-29-2007, 11:12 AM
Are you serious?

yes, but I'm not getting into this here

King_Chief_Fan
08-29-2007, 11:12 AM
No I dont believe he is among us, but he will come eventually. He will unite the world under one religion, then when you see this starting to happen, be afraid. Watch Left Behind if you have any questions. Whenever I go in depth on this subject I get blasted, but I will continue to get blasted on here so, oh well.

I think I agree with you. Satan and his party are the great deceivers and he immitates things of God so that he can be effective with his deception.

I don't think you have to wait for the rapture before the AntiChrist starts his reign.

one of the other posts on this thread mentions the currency system.
I don't believe it is as much as the same currency as it is the same system to pay for goods and service. There is the whold discussion about the mark of the beast. Anyone without that mark will not be able to purchase anything...(the mark doesn't have to be a physical mark that shows up). One example of the mark can simply be a card type that gets scanned. That card will only be given to those who have denounced Christ. You an probably imagine many other types of examples, but I think the point will be the same. Christians will be slain, tortured and who knows what could be done to their family members to force a Christian to denouce Christ.

Christians during this time will be grateful for when the rapture comes if they are not killed first.

El Jefe
08-29-2007, 11:22 AM
yes, but I'm not getting into this here


Your going to make a statement like that towards somethig I have aknowledgely supported, and then say, "I dont want to get into that subject". Well you were the one that made a crass statement about one of my posts and now you dont want to talk about it? :rolleyes: People like you crack me up, you go out of your way to take a shot at me, which is fine, but then you wont let me get into a discussion with you about it.

Jilly
08-29-2007, 11:23 AM
Your going to make a statement like that towards somethig I have aknowledgely supported, and then say, "I dont want to get into that subject". Well you were the one that made a crass statement about one of my posts and now you dont want to talk about it? :rolleyes: People like you crack me up, you go out of your way to take a shot at me, which is fine, but then you wont let me get into a discussion with you about it.

start a new thread...i'm pretty sure that's not what this one was intended for....

El Jefe
08-29-2007, 11:25 AM
I think I agree with you. Satan and his party are the great deceivers and he immitates things of God so that he can be effective with his deception.

I don't think you have to wait for the rapture before the AntiChrist starts his reign.

one of the other posts on this thread mentions the currency system.
I don't believe it is as much as the same currency as it is the same system to pay for goods and service. There is the whold discussion about the mark of the beast. Anyone without that mark will not be able to purchase anything...(the mark doesn't have to be a physical mark that shows up). One example of the mark can simply be a card type that gets scanned. That card will only be given to those who have denounced Christ. You an probably imagine many other types of examples, but I think the point will be the same. Christians will be slain, tortured and who knows what could be done to their family members to force a Christian to denouce Christ.

Christians during this time will be grateful for when the rapture comes if they are not killed first.


Rep. Very good post. That will be the currency in the days of the anti-christ, the mark of the beast. It will be almost like a barcode that will be in your skin, which you will essentially scan it just like a bar code.

StcChief
08-29-2007, 11:26 AM
This needs to go to DC

El Jefe
08-29-2007, 11:26 AM
start a new thread...i'm pretty sure that's not what this one was intended for....


What do you want it to be labeled as? Left Behind?

Mr. Kotter
08-29-2007, 11:27 AM
Hillary.

:)

Buddy Rich
08-29-2007, 11:29 AM
There are several competing theories to that relatively recent one. This is a pretty good book but it's kind of heavy reading.

http://www.amazon.com/Man-Sin-Uncovering-Truth-Antichrist/dp/0801066069

A much better bet than those silly Left Behind books. Written by a guy with a couple PHD's and *not* made into a movie starring Kirk Cameron.

StcChief
08-29-2007, 11:31 AM
A much better bet than those silly Left Behind books. Written by a guy with a couple PHD's and *not* made into a movie starring Kirk Cameron.Will have to get this. Rep

Buddy Rich - now there is a great drummer.

Pitt Gorilla
08-29-2007, 11:33 AM
"This is the antichrist, the one that denies the Father and the Son" 1 John 2:22

"For many deceivers have gone forth into the world, persons not confessing Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist." - 2 John 7

"Furthermore, this is the antichrist’s inspired expression which you have heard was coming, and now it is already in the world" - 1 John 4:3

"Young children, it is the last hour, and, just as you have heard that antichrist is coming, even now there have come to be many antichrists" -1 John 2:18


I still dont understand why all the whoopla. Its pretty simple to see that the antichrist(s) in its broadest sense refers to all who oppose or lyingly claim to be the Christ or his representatives. So why get so worked up about one(s) all of a sudden showing up, when they obviously are already here and have been here for quite a long time?I agree. I'm surprised more people on the thread aren't responding to these points.

Redrum_69
08-29-2007, 11:35 AM
America is Babylon

Cochise
08-29-2007, 11:39 AM
This needs to go to DC

Well, not really. None of the 2083489389298 other religion threads do.

Jilly
08-29-2007, 11:46 AM
What do you want it to be labeled as? Left Behind?

You know, I actually just want to say that I"m sorry. I didnt mean to insult your beliefs either time and I apologize for that. I have reasons for saying what I did, you have reasons for saying what you have said. I think maybe I'm just cranky today and reacted in a strong way. And while I don't think this is what this thread was intended for, I just think that the Left Behind series communicate a message that is not exactly in line with ALL Christian thought. And I'm not too excited when Christians who do believe it portray it as if it is.

Redrum_69
08-29-2007, 11:46 AM
Dr. Doom...this should heat the discussions up...

http://www.theforbiddenknowledge.com/hardtruth/america_babylon4.htm

Redrum_69
08-29-2007, 11:47 AM
THE RISE OF SPECIFIC GENTILE POWERS

The rise of England (The Lion of Daniel 7:4, Ezekiel 38:13 (Tarshish), Psalm 17:12)

The rise of England is the first major prophetic sign given to us by the prophets that would signal that the last generation of Israel was soon approaching. England would play a major role in the formation of Israel in the Middle East, with General Allenby capturing Israel on the very day the Haggai the Prophet said THE FOUNDATION FOR ISRAEL'S LAST TEMPLE PERIOD WOULD BE LAID (Haggai 2:18, or December 17, 1917). England has the symbol of the LION on her national seal, just as Daniel implied in his vision. It was England that issued the Balfour Declaration, which officially recognized the Jews the right to migrate back to the land of their forefathers. England's codename in Scripture is "Tarshish" and she would give birth to many YOUNG LIONS, which would grow to be major nations, the greatest of which would be a nation that had the ensign of THE EAGLE, and the SYMBOL OF LUCIFER, WITH HIS NUMBER 666, a nation that would grow to become the leading nation of the entire world, a nation whose CODE NAME WAS BABYLON THE GREAT. England would give birth to mighty Babylon, watch her rise to the apex of her power (1960's) and then watch her slow decline and death by nuclear fire). England would outlast her infamous daughter and be forced to stand alone at the end, and would die in apostasy and confusion.

THE RISE OF AMERICA

(Daniel 4:7, eagle wings; Isaiah 13,14,47, Jeremiah 50, 51, Habakkuk 1 & 2, Revelation 17, 18 & 13)

Prophecy says that England was destined to give birth to a nation that was an ISLAND NATION, surrounded by warm water seas, a nation with multiple seaports. This nation would forge the greatest national and economic system ever seen upon the face of the earth since Adam and Eve were created. She would be nation of mingled peoples, who would all migrate to America, and FORGE A SINGULAR NATION WITH THE CODE NAME BABYLON THE GREAT. America Babylon was destined to play a major roll as the protectorate of Israel in the Middle East until the end, when she would turn upon Israel, betray her, and overrun her and attempt to usurp the Throne of Jesus Christ. The KING OF BABYLON is the political leader of the ANTICHRIST FORCES. Although he may not be an American, he will rule over her in the final days, just before her demise and destruction. America's role in prophecy is that of REBELLION, for she turns into the worst of the ANTICHRIST NATIONS, and destroys her heritage, imprisons and murders both Christians and Jews in detention centers, concentration and death camps. Her end is worse than the Communist Revolution in Russia, according to the prophecies.



THE RISE OF RUSSIA

(Daniel 7:5; Ezekiel 38 & 39 (Gog) Amos 5:19)

The rise of Russia plays a major role in end time prophetic events, for she is the leader of a Russian lead coalition of Moslem/Arab powers that will instigate a SNEAK ATTACK against Babylon and Israel in the last days. In Scripture, her code name is GOG, in the land of MAGOG. She will join forces with, and supply the arms to all major Moslem powers who hate Israel and wish to drive her into the sea.

· Russia would be known as the BEAR. She is. The Russian Bear is known throughout the world (Daniel 7:5)

· Russia would have three founders (the ribs in the mouth - Daniel 7:5; Marx, Engels, Lenin)

· Russia would be told by her founders to rise and devour much flesh - she has, Russia has killed millions on her rise to power (Daniel 7:5)

· Russia would rise at the same time Babylon-America came into great power, and would be her biggest enemy, an enemy to the NORTH OF BABYLON, OVER THE POLAR REGIONS. She is.

· Russia would develop a huge aviation program complete with nuclear missiles which she will use to destroy the United States. She has them, and they are still targeting American cities.

· Russia would align itself with the following key nations:

· Iran & Iraq

· Libya

· Syria

· Ethiopia

· Turkey

Russia is destined to go against the Middle East and will be UTTERLY DEFEATED in her attempt, and will lose 5/6 of her invading forces. She will retire north to lick her wounds and be destroyed as a major power. The United States, under the control of the U.N. soon after this attack, will rise to the be the supreme ruler of the world. The leaders of America-Babylon would be lulled to sleep by the false peace overtures of the Russian's, and her break-up into a FEDERATION OF NATIONS was foretold by Jeremiah the Prophet, and is one of the last signs before her attack upon the Middle East and possibly the United States. The present peace overtures, the so called "break-up" of the Soviet Union are mere ploys to put American at ease, and when her guard is totally down, she will be attacked and destroyed. Recently the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, General Shelton annocunded that America has no enemies, and that America would have at least three years of warning before any missile could be launched against America. This is a fulfillment of the prophecies of Jeremiah, in which the leaders of America, both civilian and military, ARE PUT TO "SLEEP" and made "DRUNK". It is during this time period when America is attacked, during a time in which her leaders and the world are saying "PEACE AND SECURITY".

THE RISE OF EUROPEAN COMMUNITY

The rise of a community of nations in Europe that would fall under the United Nations Beast as a bio-region is coming to pass. The activity of the European Common Market, the formation of a singular ECU are part of the REGIONILZATION PROCESS OF THE UNITED NATIONS (ARTICLE 52 & 5) AND PLAYS A MAJOR ROLE AS BIO-REGION #2, a part of the system of BABYLONIAN WORLD TRADE. Western Europe, as part of NATO FORCES (THE U.N. ARMY) is also part of the end-time ANTICHRIST POWERS.

THE RISE OF THE PAN-ARABIAN FEDERATION

The rise of OPEC and OAPEC was foretold by the prophets in Psalm 83, which is a coalition of powers that align themselves against Israel in the last days. They will be, along with Russia, major players in the destruction of America Babylon, and make up a good share of the nations that will take America by total surprise in a sneak nuclear attack.

THE RISE OF CHINA & JAPAN

The KINGS OF THE EAST will also play a major roll in end-time military affairs. According to the apocrypha, Japan will be destroyed when America is destroyed, for she merged with and became married to America and the sins of Babylon. China plays the most important role, for she waits until the very end to enter the Middle East conflict, and goes down to "take the spoils" thinking she will emerge the victor in the end. Because she has rejected Christ, and the Bible, she does not realize she is being brought forth to her destruction in the Middle East. China will muster a 200 million man army in her last military campaign. She will lose them all and never rise again.



This then is a SHORT prophecy briefing to show how close the world is to being ON THE EDGE OF ETERNITY, and that mankind's probation upon planet earth IS COMING TO A RAPID CLOSE. ARE YOU READY? DO YOU KNOW JESUS

Cochise
08-29-2007, 11:50 AM
I found a webpage once that claimed it was Prince Charles. It was pretty kooky.

C-Mac
08-29-2007, 12:01 PM
I agree. I'm surprised more people on the thread aren't responding to these points.

Me too, thanks. You see this is what happens when you go beyond what is written. The word and term "antichrist" originated from the bible and it is explained in the bible for anyone to understand. Yet for some reason thats just not good enough. So I guess someone gets bored and decides to make up something thats more dramatic, a crazy gloom and doom concoction to woe the masses. Pretty sad IMO.

El Jefe
08-29-2007, 12:04 PM
You know, I actually just want to say that I"m sorry. I didnt mean to insult your beliefs either time and I apologize for that. I have reasons for saying what I did, you have reasons for saying what you have said. I think maybe I'm just cranky today and reacted in a strong way. And while I don't think this is what this thread was intended for, I just think that the Left Behind series communicate a message that is not exactly in line with ALL Christian thought. And I'm not too excited when Christians who do believe it portray it as if it is.


I can respect that, I just wanted to know your thoughts on the topic. No harm no foul. On your point, what/who do you consider to fall into the "Christian' category?

FAX
08-29-2007, 12:10 PM
I think Oprah is making a heck of a run at the title.

FAX

Tribal Warfare
08-29-2007, 12:10 PM
Carl Peterson?


Nah, Carl's the devil himself

El Jefe
08-29-2007, 12:11 PM
A much better bet than those silly Left Behind books. Written by a guy with a couple PHD's and *not* made into a movie starring Kirk Cameron.


The Theology is not the same as the left behind books. The left behind books follows The Bible (KJV) version very closely. This lady believes the anti-christ is a group of people not one individual person, which is wrong, because the bible tells us it's going to be one person.

Cochise
08-29-2007, 12:16 PM
The Theology is not the same as the left behind books. The left behind books follows The Bible (KJV) version very closely. This lady believes the anti-christ is a group of people not one individual person, which is wrong, because the bible tells us it's going to be one person.

You should read the book I posted a link to. It elaborates on all these topics.

Jilly
08-29-2007, 12:17 PM
I can respect that, I just wanted to know your thoughts on the topic. No harm no foul. On your point, what/who do you consider to fall into the "Christian' category?

It's simple really, people who try and walk as Jesus walked.

Buddy Rich
08-29-2007, 12:22 PM
The Theology is not the same as the left behind books. The left behind books follows The Bible (KJV) version very closely. This lady believes the anti-christ is a group of people not one individual person, which is wrong, because the bible tells us it's going to be one person.

I don't think so

El Jefe
08-29-2007, 12:23 PM
You should read the book I posted a link to. It elaborates on all these topics.

I read the sinopsis, it seems she believes the anti-christ to be a group of people, am I right. It looks like a book I would like to read and go through, and see what she what her opinion is.

El Jefe
08-29-2007, 12:24 PM
I don't think so

Any reason why? I am sure of my answer, but obviously you have something that conflicts with you believing this.

DaneMcCloud
08-29-2007, 12:28 PM
DO YOU KNOW JESUS

Not that well but he does mow my lawn.

Buddy Rich
08-29-2007, 12:29 PM
Any reason why? I am sure of my answer, but obviously you have something that conflicts with you believing this.

from keyway.ca -

Antichrist is from the Greek word (pronounced) an-tee-kris-toess. It means opposition to the Messiah (Christ is the Greek version of the Hebrew Messiah). "Antichrist" is specifically found only five times in the Holy Scriptures, four times as "antichrist" and once as "antichrists." It was used only by the apostle John, and only in two of his Epistles to the church in which he was speaking, not of pagans or people of other religions who opposed Christianity, but of people who had fallen away from true Christianity because they had been led astray by the "spirit of antichrist." They alone were not antichrist, but by their apostasy had become among those who were also antichrist. Antichrist was a hostile force, not a specific person i.e. "antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists" (1 John 2:18 KJV)

El Jefe
08-29-2007, 12:30 PM
It's simple really, people who try and walk as Jesus walked.


Pretty vague, but I know a lot of people who think the same, even though it's impossible to walk as Jesus walked considering he was perfect and we are far from it. My definition if a Christian: Someone who has accepted Jesus Christ as their personal Savior. Realized they were a sinner and that God sent his one and only son to take all the sin of the world on him, and essentially give you the free gift of salvation. John 3:16 is all you need to read, and you probably have read it. Also believeing that Jesus is "The Way the the Truth and the Life, and no man commeth unto the Father but by Me". There is only one way to get to heaven and thats accept Jesus Christ as your Savior. Alla. Mohammad, and being a good person isnt going to do it.

Dr. Van Halen
08-29-2007, 12:34 PM
Pretty vague, but I know a lot of people who think the same, even though it's impossible to walk as Jesus walked considering he was perfect and we are far from it. My definition if a Christian: Someone who has accepted Jesus Christ as their personal Savior. Realized they were a sinner and that God sent his one and only son to take all the sin of the world on him, and essentially give you the free gift of salvation. John 3:16 is all you need to read, and you probably have read it. Also believeing that Jesus is "The Way the the Truth and the Life, and no man commeth unto the Father but by Me". There is only one way to get to heaven and thats accept Jesus Christ as your Savior. Alla. Mohammad, and being a good person isnt going to do it.

Just accepting JC isn't enough. Have to do good works too.

Jilly
08-29-2007, 12:37 PM
Pretty vague, but I know a lot of people who think the same, even though it's impossible to walk as Jesus walked considering he was perfect and we are far from it. My definition if a Christian: Someone who has accepted Jesus Christ as their personal Savior. Realized they were a sinner and that God sent his one and only son to take all the sin of the world on him, and essentially give you the free gift of salvation. John 3:16 is all you need to read, and you probably have read it. Also believeing that Jesus is "The Way the the Truth and the Life, and no man commeth unto the Father but by Me". There is only one way to get to heaven and thats accept Jesus Christ as your Savior. Alla. Mohammad, and being a good person isnt going to do it.

well, i think believing in Jesus means walking in his path.... not asking him to come into my heart... and I interpret that Scripture in an entirely different way, as I interpret Revelation in an entirely different way. And I could do a whole exegesis of both, but I'm sure we would all be bored by the time I was through. I will say though... you need a different Bible. The KJV is an incredibly inaccurate translation.

Molitoth
08-29-2007, 12:42 PM
The KJV is an incredibly inaccurate translation

Based on your opinion?

El Jefe
08-29-2007, 12:48 PM
Just accepting JC isn't enough. Have to do good works too.


Where in the bible does it say that. 8)"For by Grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God-
9) Not of WORKS, lest any man should boast. That is Ephesians 2:8-9.

Wile_E_Coyote
08-29-2007, 12:50 PM
See my avatar.http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/customavatars/avatar8131_2.gif

No. That would be the Tower of Babel

Jilly
08-29-2007, 12:51 PM
Based on your opinion?

No...not at all.

C-Mac
08-29-2007, 01:03 PM
Where in the bible does it say that. 8)"For by Grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God-
9) Not of WORKS, lest any man should boast. That is Ephesians 2:8-9.

Surely you are not suggesting that works should not be are not part of your faith?

C-Mac
08-29-2007, 01:05 PM
The Theology is not the same as the left behind books. The left behind books follows The Bible (KJV) version very closely. This lady believes the anti-christ is a group of people not one individual person, which is wrong, because the bible tells us it's going to be one person.

Really. I showed several scriptures earlier that revel that there are many antichrists. Show me where it says that it only one person.

Dr. Van Halen
08-29-2007, 01:24 PM
Where in the bible does it say that. 8)"For by Grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God-
9) Not of WORKS, lest any man should boast. That is Ephesians 2:8-9.

What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead (James 2:14-17).

I'm no expert, but James is kind of saying that faith that doesn't lead to good works doesn't count. And that makes sense. Why would Jesus go on and on about being a good person if that has nothing to do with the goal of the religion.

El Jefe
08-29-2007, 01:24 PM
from keyway.ca -

Antichrist is from the Greek word (pronounced) an-tee-kris-toess. It means opposition to the Messiah (Christ is the Greek version of the Hebrew Messiah). "Antichrist" is specifically found only five times in the Holy Scriptures, four times as "antichrist" and once as "antichrists." It was used only by the apostle John, and only in two of his Epistles to the church in which he was speaking, not of pagans or people of other religions who opposed Christianity, but of people who had fallen away from true Christianity because they had been led astray by the "spirit of antichrist." They alone were not antichrist, but by their apostasy had become among those who were also antichrist. Antichrist was a hostile force, not a specific person i.e. "antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists" (1 John 2:18 KJV)


Yes there are anti-Christs, and then there is The Anti-Christ. Secondly that is not the verse in its entirety.

El Jefe
08-29-2007, 01:26 PM
well, i think believing in Jesus means walking in his path.... not asking him to come into my heart... and I interpret that Scripture in an entirely different way, as I interpret Revelation in an entirely different way. And I could do a whole exegesis of both, but I'm sure we would all be bored by the time I was through. I will say though... you need a different Bible. The KJV is an incredibly inaccurate translation.


Point out it's inaccuracies, scripture and verse, because you shouldnt say it unless you can prove it IMO.

elvomito
08-29-2007, 01:31 PM
LOL, i don't see anybody uniting anyone right now. but, there are tons of websites claiming the last pope will be the antichrist...

http://www.worldslastchance.com/
http://www.google.com/search?q=pope+antichrist&sourceid=navclient-ff&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1B3GGGL_enUS233US233

carl can't even do a 5-year plan in 18... he'd be a crappy antichrist

El Jefe
08-29-2007, 01:33 PM
What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead (James 2:14-17).

I'm no expert, but James is kind of saying that faith that doesn't lead to good works doesn't count. And that makes sense. Why would Jesus go on and on about being a good person if that has nothing to do with the goal of the religion.


Not really James is saying good works should be an evidence of your faith. Jesus never said he was good. Luke 18:18-19 And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal Life?
19) And Jesus said said unto him, Why callest me good? None is good, except one, that is, God".

Cochise
08-29-2007, 01:37 PM
LOL, i don't see anybody uniting anyone right now. but, there are tons of websites claiming the last pope will be the antichrist...

http://www.worldslastchance.com/
http://www.google.com/search?q=pope+antichrist&sourceid=navclient-ff&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1B3GGGL_enUS233US233

carl can't even do a 5-year plan in 18... he'd be a crappy antichrist

You can find as many people who supposedly fit the description as you can find dispensationalists.

I got a flyer in the mail about a year ago about a "prophecy seminar", so I went. At first I thought it was really interesting, but as the nights of the week progressed I noticed some things I thought were erroneous conclusions, and the audiences thinned out a bit. By the third or so, it was this kind of an interpretation, that the beast was the pope. I think that it was the SDA that were putting on the seminar, though you couldn't find anything about that on the literature at all.


I'm also in the process of reading 'the apocalypse code', and I have found its presentation to be convincing. *edit - If I finish it soon I'll report back here.

El Jefe
08-29-2007, 01:37 PM
Surely you are not suggesting that works should not be are not part of your faith?


I cant decipher what you are trying to say, your words are out of order or something.

Dr. Van Halen
08-29-2007, 01:38 PM
Not really James is saying good works should be an evidence of your faith. Jesus never said he was good. Luke 18:18-19 And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal Life?
19) And Jesus said said unto him, Why callest me good? None is good, except one, that is, God".

Can faith alone save him? James answers no.

C-Mac
08-29-2007, 01:40 PM
I cant decipher what you are trying to say, your words are out of order or something.

Yip, sorry.

Surely you're not suggesting that works should not be or are not part of your faith?

C-Mac
08-29-2007, 01:43 PM
LOL, i don't see anybody uniting anyone right now. but, there are tons of websites claiming the last pope will be the antichrist...

http://www.worldslastchance.com/
http://www.google.com/search?q=pope+antichrist&sourceid=navclient-ff&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1B3GGGL_enUS233US233

carl can't even do a 5-year plan in 18... he'd be a crappy antichrist

Well he could be "a antichrist", but he definitely isnt "the antichrist".

Dr. Van Halen
08-29-2007, 01:44 PM
Yip, sorry.

Surely you're not suggesting that works should not be or are not part of your faith?

I blame this notion for the fall of American civilization. People read Paul's letters and think that all they have to do is have faith and they will go to heaven, no matter what horrible crap they do. (And I'm not talking about forgiveness and redemption -- I'm talking about people who consistently do bad things.)

plbrdude
08-29-2007, 01:45 PM
This needs to go to DC


that would violate the seperation of church and state. :p

Cochise
08-29-2007, 01:46 PM
I blame this notion for the fall of American civilization. People read Paul's letters and think that all they have to do is have faith and they will go to heaven, no matter what horrible crap they do. (And I'm not talking about forgiveness and redemption -- I'm talking about people who consistently do bad things.)

I would disagree with that just a bit, and say that they feel that since they aren't one of the worst people there ever was, they will just receive mercy.

El Jefe
08-29-2007, 01:48 PM
Really. I showed several scriptures earlier that revel that there are many antichrists. Show me where it says that it only one person.

I think you might find this tidbit interesting. This is not a direct quote from the Bible but a summary from Scoffield. (13:11) Many identify the "beast coming up out of the eart" as the Anti-Christ. According to Scripture "many anti-christs" (I Jn. 2:18) and those who have the "spirit of the antichrist" (1 Jn4:3) precede and prepare the way for the final Antichrist. The supreme mark of all antichrists is the denial of the incarnation of the eternal Son of God (Jn. 1:14; see Mt. 1:16, note). If the "beast coming up out of the east" (vv. 11-17) is the Antichrist, he is the same as the "false prophet" of 16:13; 19:20; 20:10. Because the word Antichrist" is never directly applied to him, however, some have considered the term "antichrist," defined in the sense against Christ, as applying to the first beast (vv. 1-10), who is the political ruler.

I think it's a good summary IMO. Just read Rev 13. What point are you trying to prove against me? Like I have already stated there are many anti-christs meaning people against Jesus, but only one after all the others, whom you may consider the Beast, or the Anti-Christ.

C-Mac
08-29-2007, 02:00 PM
Point out it's inaccuracies, scripture and verse, because you shouldnt say it unless you can prove it IMO.

I do not agree that its incredibly inaccurate. Its a good bible but its definitely hard to understand the old english, therefore I prefer standard English bibles. There actually are few errors like found in 1 John 5:7,8. If you consult the Ryrie study bible you will find that the scripture was altered. This was actually done previously in the Latin Vulgate, then re-copied into the KJV. It was likely altered to try and prove the Trinity, but the later manuscripts showed it to be grossly incorrect.

Cochise
08-29-2007, 02:01 PM
Many identify the "beast coming up out of the eart" as the Anti-Christ.

The supreme mark of all antichrists is the denial of the incarnation of the eternal Son of God (Jn. 1:14; see Mt. 1:16, note).


Remember the guy who was possessed and gashed himself with stones who was exorcised? When Jesus approached, the demon(s) within him recognized who they were dealing with and his authority instantly. The demons were afraid of him because they knew who he was. Remember, they asked if he had come to "torment them before the time". They certainly didn't deny the incarnation. The same thing happens at the start of Mark. The unclean spirit says, "What business do we have with each other, Jesus of Nazareth? Have You come to destroy us? I know who You are-- the Holy One of God!" http://bible.cc/mark/1-24.htm

How then would this singular beast would deny it? He knows it as well as the aforementioned demons did. Even the devil knows who Jesus is. His minions don't deny it.

plbrdude
08-29-2007, 02:01 PM
I would disagree with that just a bit, and say that they feel that since they aren't one of the worst people there ever was, they will just receive mercy.


that is so sad. easy believism is an epidemic. so many people are not even taught repentence.


Lu 13:2 And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?
Lu 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Logical
08-29-2007, 02:01 PM
Great thread so far. Very interesting.

El Jefe
08-29-2007, 02:05 PM
Can faith alone save him? James answers no.


Your just reading it to get what you want out of it. James is saying that we should be able to see your faith through your works. If you are truly saved we should see that, through the way you live your life as a Chrisitan and doing good works. We seem to be not understanding each other. :hmmm:

Logical
08-29-2007, 02:07 PM
Come on dude, you have no imagination anymore
Evidently I still have imagination, you just did not see it for yourself.:p

sedated
08-29-2007, 02:08 PM
what's an antichrist?

El Jefe
08-29-2007, 02:10 PM
Remember the guy who was possessed and gashed himself with stones who was exorcised? When Jesus approached, the demon(s) within him recognized who they were dealing with and his authority instantly. The demons were afraid of him because they knew who he was. Remember, they asked if he had come to "torment them before the time". They certainly didn't deny the incarnation. The same thing happens at the start of Mark. The unclean spirit says, "What business do we have with each other, Jesus of Nazareth? Have You come to destroy us? I know who You are-- the Holy One of God!" http://bible.cc/mark/1-24.htm

How then would this singular beast would deny it? He knows it as well as the aforementioned demons did. Even the devil knows who Jesus is. His minions don't deny it.


Good read, but are you speaking of after the Rapture? The Beast comes after the rapture, which is why he will be able to do the things he does. But also remember too, God let the devil take everything from Job, and give him boils from head to toe, and take all his possesions, except he wouldnt let him take his life. So God let satan do this.

chasedude
08-29-2007, 02:11 PM
If so how will he come to power?

Dr. Van Halen
08-29-2007, 02:16 PM
Your just reading it to get what you want out of it. James is saying that we should be able to see your faith through your works. If you are truly saved we should see that, through the way you live your life as a Chrisitan and doing good works. We seem to be not understanding each other. :hmmm:

Come on, now. One of the major points made throughout the entire Bible is that people should do good things. The Ten Commandments, the Beatitudes -- every book talks about doing good things. You can't disregard that because Paul says so in a couple of letters.

"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone" James 2: 17.

I don't think I need to read into this to get what I want out of it. Faith without works is dead.

Whether the good works are the fruits of faith or not -- you have to have them.

Rausch
08-29-2007, 02:17 PM
I'd have to go with no.

crazycoffey
08-29-2007, 02:23 PM
what's the money line on the Anti-Christ being Andy Dick?

Dr. Van Halen
08-29-2007, 02:25 PM
what's the money line on the Anti-Christ being Andy Dick?

Because he indirectly caused the murder of Phil Hartman?

El Jefe
08-29-2007, 02:31 PM
Come on, now. One of the major points made throughout the entire Bible is that people should do good things. The Ten Commandments, the Beatitudes -- every book talks about doing good things. You can't disregard that because Paul says so in a couple of letters.

"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone" James 2: 17.

I don't think I need to read into this to get what I want out of it. Faith without works is dead.

Whether the good works are the fruits of faith or not -- you have to have them.


Yes because if you are saved you will demonstrate it through your good works. There are people who have said they are saved and by their works it's hard to believe they are saved, but thats between them and God.

Dr. Van Halen
08-29-2007, 02:32 PM
Yes because if you are saved you will demonstrate it through your good works. There are people who have said they are saved and by their works it's hard to believe they are saved, but thats between them and God.

So we agree? Faith + good works = saved.

crazycoffey
08-29-2007, 02:35 PM
Because he indirectly caused the murder of Phil Hartman?


:cuss: AHHHHHrrrgggg!!!! :cuss:

I forgot about that! He's the debil.

Frazod
08-29-2007, 02:38 PM
I figure it's either Cheney or John Elway.

El Jefe
08-29-2007, 02:39 PM
So we agree? Faith + good works = saved.


If you truly have accepted Christ into your life, you will go to heaven. I guess I am trying to say if you have accepted Christ as your savior and you meant it you will go to heaven. But if you are a Christian it is your obligation to let others see the light of Christ in you.

Dr. Van Halen
08-29-2007, 02:42 PM
If you truly have accepted Christ into your life, you will go to heaven. I guess I am trying to say if you have accepted Christ as your savior and you meant it you will go to heaven. But if you are a Christian it is your obligation to let others see the light of Christ in you.

So you are obliged to do good works too. I agree.

Mr Luzcious
08-29-2007, 02:44 PM
So we agree? Faith + good works = saved.

Good works are a natural result of faith. They aren't required for salvation, but at the same time, if you are truly saved, you will do good works.

Cochise
08-29-2007, 02:45 PM
Good read, but are you speaking of after the Rapture? The Beast comes after the rapture.

What I'm saying is that those examples seem to cast doubt on the antichrist being one person, and thus the overall pre-mil/pre-trib idea. That idea only came around in the 1800s. I don't believe that was the historical understanding of the early church. I think they would have read Revelation and understood it the way I earlier laid out.

Jilly
08-29-2007, 02:48 PM
King James Version - here we go....commissioned by a King for the Anglican Church; translated from texts twice removed from the original greek...Erasmus, who wrote the text that the King James version is reliant on, had a limited number of the Greek texts available to him and was in a hurry in translating even what he had. Using texts from here and there Erasmus pieced together a translation. When King James commissioned the Bible be translated for the Anglican Church in the King's English, translator's used the text by Erasmus, which is flawed and has been proven to have flaws.
I don't know Greek, or I would point out the flaws one by one...however, translations are out there now that are as close to the original greek as possible...and they still contain flaws because Greek does not always translate into English in a clean manner.
In translation, there always carries with it the eye of hte translator... So...looking at a text, for example...should I use the english word Maiden or Virgin....because the greek work could mean either....that translator then makes decision which word to use. now when a translator is commissioned by a King or a Pope, that translator might have a bias when choosing the word according to what might please his commissioner.

Dr. Van Halen
08-29-2007, 02:52 PM
Good works are a natural result of faith. They aren't required for salvation, but at the same time, if you are truly saved, you will do good works.

They are required and it matters. Why bother with Ten Commandments and Beatitudes and "Love thy neighbor as thyself" otherwise? If the Bible was one big book about faith only, then I would agree. If Jesus sat around just saying, "Believe, believe, believe," I would agree. But Jesus really seemed to harp on the whole do good works thing. It kind of seemed important to Him.

Dr. Van Halen
08-29-2007, 02:54 PM
King James Version - here we go....commissioned by a King for the Anglican Church; translated from texts twice removed from the original greek...Erasmus, who wrote the text that the King James version is reliant on, had a limited number of the Greek texts available to him and was in a hurry in translating even what he had. Using texts from here and there Erasmus pieced together a translation. When King James commissioned the Bible be translated for the Anglican Church in the King's English, translator's used the text by Erasmus, which is flawed and has been proven to have flaws.
I don't know Greek, or I would point out the flaws one by one...however, translations are out there now that are as close to the original greek as possible...and they still contain flaws because Greek does not always translate into English in a clean manner.
In translation, there always carries with it the eye of hte translator... So...looking at a text, for example...should I use the english word Maiden or Virgin....because the greek work could mean either....that translator then makes decision which word to use. now when a translator is commissioned by a King or a Pope, that translator might have a bias when choosing the word according to what might please his commissioner.

Well said. I find the notion that the English translation is somehow superior to be a bit anglo-centric.

Mr Luzcious
08-29-2007, 02:58 PM
They are required and it matters. Why bother with Ten Commandments and Beatitudes and "Love thy neighbor as thyself" otherwise? If the Bible was one big book about faith only, then I would agree. If Jesus sat around just saying, "Believe, believe, believe," I would agree. But Jesus really seemed to harp on the whole do good works thing. It kind of seemed important to Him.

Firstly, without those, how could we realize we are sinners? Second, regardless of whether or not they are required for salvation, they are still excellent guidelines to live by.

If you follow that line of thought to its logical conclusion.. we're screwed. Since we can't follow those commands perfectly.

Jilly
08-29-2007, 02:58 PM
Theology of the Left Behind series:

Largely based on a translation of Revelation that is literal. Revelation was written by a guy named John who was exiled to the Island of Patmos, during a time of persecution and martyrdom of early Christians. The time of Nero.
one might interpret Revelation as a secret code to said Christians offering to them hope at this time of crisis. The beast/anti christ or the mark 666 being that of the name, Nero. Nero, his name in Aramaic valued at the number 666 when using Hebrew Numerology. It was a way for Christians to speak about Nero without Roman authorities ever knowing.

Buddy Rich
08-29-2007, 02:58 PM
They are required and it matters. Why bother with Ten Commandments and Beatitudes and "Love thy neighbor as thyself" otherwise? If the Bible was one big book about faith only, then I would agree. If Jesus sat around just saying, "Believe, believe, believe," I would agree. But Jesus really seemed to harp on the whole do good works thing. It kind of seemed important to Him.

Right on

El Jefe
08-29-2007, 02:59 PM
Good works are a natural result of faith. They aren't required for salvation, but at the same time, if you are truly saved, you will do good works.


Perfect. :clap:

Mr Luzcious
08-29-2007, 03:01 PM
Theology of the Left Behind series:

Largely based on a translation of Revelation that is literal. Revelation was written by a guy named John who was exiled to the Island of Patmos, during a time of persecution and martyrdom of early Christians. The time of Nero.
one might interpret Revelation as a secret code to said Christians offering to them hope at this time of crisis. The beast/anti christ or the mark 666 being that of the name, Nero. Nero, his name in Aramaic valued at the number 666 when using Hebrew Numerology. It was a way for Christians to speak about Nero without Roman authorities ever knowing.

Eh? That is definitely not the theology of the left behind series..

Jilly
08-29-2007, 03:03 PM
Eh? That is definitely not the theology of the left behind series..

let me clarify...sorry!!! This information in my post would be why I thnk the theology of the Left Behind Series is horrible....someone had asked and this was my answer!!! Sorry about that!

Dr. Van Halen
08-29-2007, 03:04 PM
Good works are a natural result of faith. They aren't required for salvation, but at the same time, if you are truly saved, you will do good works.

Where do you get the idea that they are not required for salvation? Alone, yes, good works are nothing. Alone, yes, faith is not enough.

"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone" James 2: 17.

I don't understand how to interpret that to mean you don't need both faith and good works.

Jilly
08-29-2007, 03:04 PM
let me clarify...sorry!!! This information in my post would be why I thnk the theology of the Left Behind Series is horrible....someone had asked and this was my answer!!! Sorry about that!

gah, i suck.... OK...

the left behind series has horrible theology because it is based on a literal translation of Revelation. My post was simply stating a translation of Revelation that I believe to be much more accurate than that of the LEft Behind series.

There. That's better!!

Mr Luzcious
08-29-2007, 03:04 PM
let me clarify...sorry!!! This information in my post would be why I thnk the theology of the Left Behind Series is horrible....someone had asked and this was my answer!!! Sorry about that!

Ah, good. well then I agree.

El Jefe
08-29-2007, 03:05 PM
They are required and it matters. Why bother with Ten Commandments and Beatitudes and "Love thy neighbor as thyself" otherwise? If the Bible was one big book about faith only, then I would agree. If Jesus sat around just saying, "Believe, believe, believe," I would agree. But Jesus really seemed to harp on the whole do good works thing. It kind of seemed important to Him.


Good works are a natural result of faith. They aren't required for salvation, but at the same time, if you are truly saved, you will do good works.

What more of an explanation do you want? Thats perfect.

Mr Luzcious
08-29-2007, 03:05 PM
And the word "literal" is used very loosely when it comes to their interpretation.

El Jefe
08-29-2007, 03:06 PM
Well said. I find the notion that the English translation is somehow superior to be a bit anglo-centric.


So your whole point is Grammar flaws? Or are you trying to say their is doctrinal flaws?

Woops quoted the wrong post, this is for Jilly.

Jilly
08-29-2007, 03:06 PM
And the word "literal" is used very loosely when it comes to their interpretation.


yeah, exactly

Mr Luzcious
08-29-2007, 03:06 PM
Where do you get the idea that they are not required for salvation? Alone, yes, good works are nothing. Alone, yes, faith is not enough.

"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone" James 2: 17.

I don't understand how to interpret that to mean you don't need both faith and good works.

That verse is EXACTLY where I'm getting that idea. Its not saying that works are required for salvation, its saying that if there are no works, then the faith probably isn't real. The works are a sign of the faith.

El Jefe
08-29-2007, 03:09 PM
Originally Posted by Jilly
Theology of the Left Behind series:

Largely based on a translation of Revelation that is literal. Revelation was written by a guy named John who was exiled to the Island of Patmos, during a time of persecution and martyrdom of early Christians. The time of Nero.
one might interpret Revelation as a secret code to said Christians offering to them hope at this time of crisis. The beast/anti christ or the mark 666 being that of the name, Nero. Nero, his name in Aramaic valued at the number 666 when using Hebrew Numerology. It was a way for Christians to speak about Nero without Roman authorities ever knowing.

Am I the only one who doesnt agree with this being the basis of the Left Behind Theology?

Jilly
08-29-2007, 03:10 PM
So your whole point is Grammar flaws? Or are you trying to say their is doctrinal flaws?

Woops quoted the wrong post, this is for Jilly.

I would say choosing the word Virgin over Maiden can be both, wouldn't you?

Or companion over wife??

It's not grammar, it's meaning of the word itself which has played a significant role in forming doctrines.

Mr Luzcious
08-29-2007, 03:10 PM
Originally Posted by Jilly
Theology of the Left Behind series:

Largely based on a translation of Revelation that is literal. Revelation was written by a guy named John who was exiled to the Island of Patmos, during a time of persecution and martyrdom of early Christians. The time of Nero.
one might interpret Revelation as a secret code to said Christians offering to them hope at this time of crisis. The beast/anti christ or the mark 666 being that of the name, Nero. Nero, his name in Aramaic valued at the number 666 when using Hebrew Numerology. It was a way for Christians to speak about Nero without Roman authorities ever knowing.

Am I the only one who doesnt agree with this being the basis of the Left Behind Theology?

This was addressed a few posts up.

Jilly
08-29-2007, 03:11 PM
Originally Posted by Jilly
Theology of the Left Behind series:

Largely based on a translation of Revelation that is literal. Revelation was written by a guy named John who was exiled to the Island of Patmos, during a time of persecution and martyrdom of early Christians. The time of Nero.
one might interpret Revelation as a secret code to said Christians offering to them hope at this time of crisis. The beast/anti christ or the mark 666 being that of the name, Nero. Nero, his name in Aramaic valued at the number 666 when using Hebrew Numerology. It was a way for Christians to speak about Nero without Roman authorities ever knowing.

Am I the only one who doesnt agree with this being the basis of the Left Behind Theology?

see my posts after this where I clarify...I'm having brain functioning issues!!!

El Jefe
08-29-2007, 03:11 PM
Where do you get the idea that they are not required for salvation? Alone, yes, good works are nothing. Alone, yes, faith is not enough.

"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone" James 2: 17.

I don't understand how to interpret that to mean you don't need both faith and good works.


Man this is your only stronghold that you wont give up. It's saying that if you are saved your faith will show through your good works.

El Jefe
08-29-2007, 03:19 PM
I would say choosing the word Virgin over Maiden can be both, wouldn't you?

Or companion over wife??

It's not grammar, it's meaning of the word itself which has played a significant role in forming doctrines.


I see what your saying but I would like to see where these words were changed because to be honest, I dont really know of any instances that are questionable. Im not a KJV only but its one of the most accepted translations. I have numerous study Bibles that are different versions, so I can accpet someone using something a little different. Whats your version you read?

Jilly
08-29-2007, 03:34 PM
I see what your saying but I would like to see where these words were changed because to be honest, I dont really know of any instances that are questionable. Im not a KJV only but its one of the most accepted translations. I have numerous study Bibles that are different versions, so I can accpet someone using something a little different. Whats your version you read?

Those are examples of Greek not translating into English in a clean manner. For example,

The greek word, Pneuma means Spirit, ghost or wind...

so in matthew 3:16, the translator has a choice,

"he saw the spirit (could also be wind or ghost) of God descending..."

The translator has to make a choice based on the text that surrounded the word what would make the most sense.

What if the translator chose the word Ghost instead? "he saw the ghost of God descending..." it gives the text an entirely different meaning....and evokes a totally different emotion from the reader, especially us readers 1000 years later or more...

Adept Havelock
08-29-2007, 03:37 PM
No, but my cousin lives in perpetual fear of the Anti-Chris.

If they meet and shake hands, I'm pretty sure the universe will end.

phisherman
08-29-2007, 03:38 PM
i'm going to go ahead and side w/ the minister on this issue...

no offense, but i believe a person of the cloth over a car mechanic, just a hunch that the minister has studied the word a bit more

El Jefe
08-29-2007, 03:41 PM
Those are examples of Greek not translating into English in a clean manner. For example,

The greek word, Pneuma means Spirit, ghost or wind...

so in matthew 3:16, the translator has a choice,

"he saw the spirit (could also be wind or ghost) of God descending..."

The translator has to make a choice based on the text that surrounded the word what would make the most sense.

What if the translator chose the word Ghost instead? "he saw the ghost of God descending..." it gives the text an entirely different meaning....and evokes a totally different emotion from the reader, especially us readers 1000 years later or more...


But he didnt, thats my whole point. That doesnt conflict with anything if all are applicable to the text. Because just like back then words can have/do have different literal meaning then they used to.

El Jefe
08-29-2007, 03:42 PM
i'm going to go ahead and side w/ the minister on this issue...

no offense, but i believe a person of the cloth over a car mechanic, just a hunch that the minister has studied the word a bit more

Whose the minister?

phisherman
08-29-2007, 03:59 PM
jilly would be the minister

btw, jilly, i didn't mean to out you if it was a secret

El Jefe
08-29-2007, 04:17 PM
jilly would be the minister

btw, jilly, i didn't mean to out you if it was a secret


Minister of what?

Logical
08-29-2007, 04:24 PM
What I'm saying is that those examples seem to cast doubt on the antichrist being one person, and thus the overall pre-mil/pre-trib idea. That idea only came around in the 1800s. I don't believe that was the historical understanding of the early church. I think they would have read Revelation and understood it the way I earlier laid out.I am glad you seem to be participating you normally don't like my threads.:thumb:

HonestChieffan
08-29-2007, 04:26 PM
Ill take the bet and raise you two midgets and a underworldly monster

Adept Havelock
08-29-2007, 04:27 PM
Minister of what?

Minister of the Interior, for the British Cabinet. :spock:

El Jefe
08-29-2007, 04:33 PM
Minister of the Interior, for the British Cabinet. :spock:


Hahaha real funny, I am asking of what type of church etc. :rolleyes:

StcChief
08-29-2007, 04:38 PM
Why isn't this in DC yet.

El Jefe
08-29-2007, 04:52 PM
i'm going to go ahead and side w/ the minister on this issue...

no offense, but i believe a person of the cloth over a car mechanic, just a hunch that the minister has studied the word a bit more


You dont know that she has studied the word more, you have to presume that. Also I would like to know what type of church (Jilly) is pastoring, just out of curiosity. It also makes a difference if she is studying a different word than me.

Jilly
08-29-2007, 05:16 PM
jilly would be the minister

btw, jilly, i didn't mean to out you if it was a secret

it's a little too late don't ya think???!!!!! Nah, it's okay, Darlin...seeing that you're an "old high school" buddy, I'll let it slide!!

Hydrae
08-29-2007, 05:17 PM
Something a lot of Christians seem to forget is the verse after the most famous one, John 3:17...

17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

As to the Anti-Christ, he will be known as a man of peace, a uniter of countries. This is the only way I feel sure that GW is NOT the Anti-Christ. :p

Logical
08-29-2007, 05:22 PM
THE RISE OF SPECIFIC GENTILE POWERS
The rise of England (The Lion of Daniel 7:4, Ezekiel 38:13 (Tarshish), Psalm 17:12)
The rise of England is the first major prophetic sign given to us by the prophets that would signal that the last generation of Israel was soon approaching. England would play a major role in the formation of Israel in the Middle East, with General Allenby capturing Israel on the very day the Haggai the Prophet said THE FOUNDATION FOR ISRAEL'S LAST TEMPLE PERIOD WOULD BE LAID (Haggai 2:18, or December 17, 1917). England has the symbol of the LION on her national seal, just as Daniel implied in his vision. It was England that issued the Balfour Declaration, which officially recognized the Jews the right to migrate back to the land of their forefathers. England's codename in Scripture is "Tarshish" and she would give birth to many YOUNG LIONS, which would grow to be major nations, the greatest of which would be a nation that had the ensign of THE EAGLE, and the SYMBOL OF LUCIFER, WITH HIS NUMBER 666, a nation that would grow to become the leading nation of the entire world, a nation whose CODE NAME WAS BABYLON THE GREAT. England would give birth to mighty Babylon, watch her rise to the apex of her power (1960's) and then watch her slow decline and death by nuclear fire). England would outlast her infamous daughter and be forced to stand alone at the end, and would die in apostasy and confusion.
THE RISE OF AMERICA
(Daniel 4:7, eagle wings; Isaiah 13,14,47, Jeremiah 50, 51, Habakkuk 1 & 2, Revelation 17, 18 & 13)
Prophecy says that England was destined to give birth to a nation that was an ISLAND NATION, surrounded by warm water seas, a nation with multiple seaports. This nation would forge the greatest national and economic system ever seen upon the face of the earth since Adam and Eve were created. She would be nation of mingled peoples, who would all migrate to America, and FORGE A SINGULAR NATION WITH THE CODE NAME BABYLON THE GREAT. America Babylon was destined to play a major roll as the protectorate of Israel in the Middle East until the end, when she would turn upon Israel, betray her, and overrun her and attempt to usurp the Throne of Jesus Christ. The KING OF BABYLON is the political leader of the ANTICHRIST FORCES. Although he may not be an American, he will rule over her in the final days, just before her demise and destruction. America's role in prophecy is that of REBELLION, for she turns into the worst of the ANTICHRIST NATIONS, and destroys her heritage, imprisons and murders both Christians and Jews in detention centers, concentration and death camps. Her end is worse than the Communist Revolution in Russia, according to the prophecies.

THE RISE OF RUSSIA
(Daniel 7:5; Ezekiel 38 & 39 (Gog) Amos 5:19)
The rise of Russia plays a major role in end time prophetic events, for she is the leader of a Russian lead coalition of Moslem/Arab powers that will instigate a SNEAK ATTACK against Babylon and Israel in the last days. In Scripture, her code name is GOG, in the land of MAGOG. She will join forces with, and supply the arms to all major Moslem powers who hate Israel and wish to drive her into the sea.
· Russia would be known as the BEAR. She is. The Russian Bear is known throughout the world (Daniel 7:5)
· Russia would have three founders (the ribs in the mouth - Daniel 7:5; Marx, Engels, Lenin)
· Russia would be told by her founders to rise and devour much flesh - she has, Russia has killed millions on her rise to power (Daniel 7:5)
· Russia would rise at the same time Babylon-America came into great power, and would be her biggest enemy, an enemy to the NORTH OF BABYLON, OVER THE POLAR REGIONS. She is.
· Russia would develop a huge aviation program complete with nuclear missiles which she will use to destroy the United States. She has them, and they are still targeting American cities.
· Russia would align itself with the following key nations:
· Iran & Iraq
· Libya
· Syria
· Ethiopia
· Turkey
Russia is destined to go against the Middle East and will be UTTERLY DEFEATED in her attempt, and will lose 5/6 of her invading forces. She will retire north to lick her wounds and be destroyed as a major power. The United States, under the control of the U.N. soon after this attack, will rise to the be the supreme ruler of the world. The leaders of America-Babylon would be lulled to sleep by the false peace overtures of the Russian's, and her break-up into a FEDERATION OF NATIONS was foretold by Jeremiah the Prophet, and is one of the last signs before her attack upon the Middle East and possibly the United States. The present peace overtures, the so called "break-up" of the Soviet Union are mere ploys to put American at ease, and when her guard is totally down, she will be attacked and destroyed. Recently the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, General Shelton annocunded that America has no enemies, and that America would have at least three years of warning before any missile could be launched against America. This is a fulfillment of the prophecies of Jeremiah, in which the leaders of America, both civilian and military, ARE PUT TO "SLEEP" and made "DRUNK". It is during this time period when America is attacked, during a time in which her leaders and the world are saying "PEACE AND SECURITY".
THE RISE OF EUROPEAN COMMUNITY
The rise of a community of nations in Europe that would fall under the United Nations Beast as a bio-region is coming to pass. The activity of the European Common Market, the formation of a singular ECU are part of the REGIONILZATION PROCESS OF THE UNITED NATIONS (ARTICLE 52 & 5) AND PLAYS A MAJOR ROLE AS BIO-REGION #2, a part of the system of BABYLONIAN WORLD TRADE. Western Europe, as part of NATO FORCES (THE U.N. ARMY) is also part of the end-time ANTICHRIST POWERS.
THE RISE OF THE PAN-ARABIAN FEDERATION
The rise of OPEC and OAPEC was foretold by the prophets in Psalm 83, which is a coalition of powers that align themselves against Israel in the last days. They will be, along with Russia, major players in the destruction of America Babylon, and make up a good share of the nations that will take America by total surprise in a sneak nuclear attack.
THE RISE OF CHINA & JAPAN
The KINGS OF THE EAST will also play a major roll in end-time military affairs. According to the apocrypha, Japan will be destroyed when America is destroyed, for she merged with and became married to America and the sins of Babylon. China plays the most important role, for she waits until the very end to enter the Middle East conflict, and goes down to "take the spoils" thinking she will emerge the victor in the end. Because she has rejected Christ, and the Bible, she does not realize she is being brought forth to her destruction in the Middle East. China will muster a 200 million man army in her last military campaign. She will lose them all and never rise again.


Interesting post

Jenson71
08-29-2007, 06:02 PM
Good thread. Christians have disputed like hell with eachother for almost 2000 years on doctrinal issues, including ones addressed here. Some things just don't change. :)

Jenson71
08-29-2007, 06:17 PM
You can find as many people who supposedly fit the description as you can find dispensationalists.

I got a flyer in the mail about a year ago about a "prophecy seminar", so I went. At first I thought it was really interesting, but as the nights of the week progressed I noticed some things I thought were erroneous conclusions, and the audiences thinned out a bit. By the third or so, it was this kind of an interpretation, that the beast was the pope. I think that it was the SDA that were putting on the seminar, though you couldn't find anything about that on the literature at all.


This idea has been thought of by many for centuries.

ZepSinger
08-29-2007, 07:05 PM
I was introduced to the following viewpoint on this subject about a year ago, and believe it may be credible. Gary Demar in his book " Last Days Madness" (http://www.amazon.com/Last-Days-Madness-Obsession-Modern/dp/0915815354/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/103-7271840-6860604?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1188431326&sr=1-1) believes that the rapture and future antichrist theology has been misinterpreted in the Bible, and that Nero was actually the one foretold to be the antichrist in approx. 100 A.D.

Make no mistake, he believes that Christ is indeed coming back to judge man; but he does not believe that the church will be removed from a future tribulation, because that period in time has already happened.

He says that the traditional, future-antichrist theory only came into being about 150 years ago, and that prior to this time, the view he supports was the norm.

I was very skeptical at first, but after reading the book and doing a small group study on it, I'm leaning toward Demar's point of view...

Z

stevieray
08-29-2007, 07:11 PM
There's always a chance that "the" false prophet is being groomed as we speak.

plbrdude
08-29-2007, 07:34 PM
Why isn't this in DC yet.


seperation of church and state. this thread does not belong in dc.

Calcountry
08-29-2007, 10:41 PM
If so how will he come to power?He will issue a command to all the clones, order 666, and they will proceed to execute all the Jedi Knights.

Calcountry
08-29-2007, 10:44 PM
If so how will he come to power?REPENT SINNER!

DaneMcCloud
08-29-2007, 10:46 PM
There's always a chance that "the" false prophet is being groomed as we speak.

Do you think he spends $400 on a haircut?

Calcountry
08-29-2007, 10:52 PM
Do you think he spends $400 on a haircut?Judas was all ticked off at the woman that broke the Alabaster jar of expensive perfume on Jesus. Edwards should have gave that money to the Katrina people that are hurting.

Mr Luzcious
08-29-2007, 11:03 PM
I was introduced to the following viewpoint on this subject about a year ago, and believe it may be credible. Gary Demar in his book " Last Days Madness" (http://www.amazon.com/Last-Days-Madness-Obsession-Modern/dp/0915815354/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/103-7271840-6860604?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1188431326&sr=1-1) believes that the rapture and future antichrist theology has been misinterpreted in the Bible, and that Nero was actually the one foretold to be the antichrist in approx. 100 A.D.

Make no mistake, he believes that Christ is indeed coming back to judge man; but he does not believe that the church will be removed from a future tribulation, because that period in time has already happened.

He says that the traditional, future-antichrist theory only came into being about 150 years ago, and that prior to this time, the view he supports was the norm.

I was very skeptical at first, but after reading the book and doing a small group study on it, I'm leaning toward Demar's point of view...

Z

Yup, thats what did it for me too.

DaneMcCloud
08-29-2007, 11:06 PM
Judas was all ticked off at the woman that broke the Alabaster jar of expensive perfume on Jesus. Edwards should have gave that money to the Katrina people that are hurting.

I was just joking about the "grooming" thing (cross-thread humor) but you are correct.

alnorth
08-29-2007, 11:25 PM
Do you believe the Anti-christ is amongst us?

No.

I also dont believe in the existence of goblins, zombies, or witchcraft.