Ray Gun Use in Iraq Nixed by Leadership

[gblowfish]

I bet if the defense contractor called it a "Ronald Ray Gun" it would be embraced immediately!

http://tinyurl.com/22v9hh

Pentagon nixes ray gun weapon in Iraq

By RICHARD LARDNER, Associated Press Writer 59 minutes ago

WASHINGTON - Saddam Hussein had been gone just a few weeks, and U.S. forces in Fallujah, west of Baghdad, were already being called unwelcome invaders. One of the first big anti-American protests of the war escalated into shootouts that left 18 Iraqis dead and 78 wounded.

It would be a familiar scene in Iraq's next few years: Crowds gather, insurgents mingle with civilians. Troops open fire, and innocents die.

All the while, according to internal military correspondence obtained by The Associated Press, U.S. commanders were telling Washington that many civilian casualties could be avoided by using a new non-lethal weapon developed over the past decade.

Military leaders repeatedly and urgently requested — and were denied — the device, which uses energy beams instead of bullets and lets soldiers break up unruly crowds without firing a shot.

It's a ray gun that neither kills nor maims, but the Pentagon has refused to deploy it out of concern that the weapon itself might be seen as a torture device.

Perched on a Humvee or a flatbed truck, the Active Denial System gives people hit by the invisible beam the sense that their skin is on fire. They move out of the way quickly and without injury.

On April 30, 2003, two days after the first Fallujah incident, Gene McCall, then the top scientist at Air Force Space Command in Colorado, typed out a two-sentence e-mail to Gen. Richard Myers, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.

"I am convinced that the tragedy at Fallujah would not have occurred if an Active Denial System had been there," McCall told Myers, according to the e-mail obtained by AP. The system should become "an immediate priority," McCall said.

Myers referred McCall's message to his staff, according to the e-mail chain.

McCall, who retired from government in November 2003, remains convinced the system would have saved lives in Iraq.

"How this has been handled is kind of a national scandal," McCall said by telephone from his home in Florida.

A few months after McCall's message, in August 2003, Richard Natonski, a Marine Corps brigadier general who had just returned from Iraq, filed an "urgent" request with officials in Washington for the energy-beam device.

The device would minimize what Natonski described as the "CNN Effect" — the instantaneous relay of images depicting U.S. troops as aggressors.

A year later, Natonski, by then promoted to major general, again asked for the system, saying a compact and mobile version was "urgently needed," particularly in urban settings.

Natonski, now a three-star general, is the Marine Corps' deputy commandant for plans, policies and operations. He did not respond to an interview request.

In October 2004, the commander of the 2nd Marine Expeditionary Force "enthusiastically" endorsed Natonski's request. Lt. Gen. James Amos said it was "critical" for Marines in Iraq to have the system.

Senior officers in Iraq have continued to make the case. One December 2006 request noted that as U.S. forces are drawn down, the non-lethal weapon "will provide excellent means for economy of force."

The main reason the tool has been missing in action is public perception. With memories of the Abu Ghraib prison scandal still fresh, the Pentagon is reluctant to give troops a space-age device that could be misconstrued as a torture machine.

"We want to just make sure that all the conditions are right, so when it is able to be deployed the system performs as predicted — that there isn't any negative fallout," said Col. Kirk Hymes, head of the Defense Department's Joint Non-Lethal Weapons Directorate.

Reviews by military lawyers concluded it is a lawful weapon under current rules governing the conflicts in Iraq and Afghanistan, according to a Nov. 15 document prepared by Marine Corps officials in western Iraq.

Private organizations remain concerned, however, because documentation that supports the testing and legal reviews is classified. There's no way to independently verify the Pentagon's claims, said Stephen Goose of Human Rights Watch in Washington.

"We think that any time you have an emerging technology that's based on novel physical principles, that this deserves the highest level of scrutiny," Goose said. "And we really haven't had that."

Another issue for the weapon is cost.

The Pentagon has spent $62 million developing and testing the system over the past decade, a scant amount compared to other high-profile, multibillion-dollar military programs.

Still, officials say the technology is too expensive, although they won't say what it costs to build. They cite engineering challenges as another obstacle, although one U.S. defense contractor says it has a model ready for production.

For now, there's no firm schedule for when the system might be made and delivered to troops.

Commanders in Iraq say the go-slow approach has had devastating consequences.

There's no way to calculate how many civilian deaths could have been avoided had the energy beam been available in Iraq. The bulk of the civilian casualties are due to sectarian warfare.

According to AP statistics, more than 27,400 Iraqi civilians have been killed and more than 31,000 wounded in war-related violence just since the new government took office in April 2005.

The Active Denial System is a directed-energy device, although it is not a laser or a microwave. It uses a large, dish-shaped antenna and a long, V-shaped arm to send an invisible beam of waves to a target as far away as 500 yards.

With the unit mounted on the back of a vehicle, U.S. troops can operate a safe distance from rocks, Molotov cocktails and small-arms fire.

The beam penetrates the skin slightly, just enough to cause intense pain. The beam goes through clothing as well as windows, but can be blocked by thicker materials, such as metal or concrete.

The system was developed by the Air Force Research Laboratory in New Mexico. During more than 12 years of testing, only two injuries requiring medical attention have been reported; both were second-degree burns, according to the Joint Non-Lethal Weapons Directorate Web site.

Prototype units have been assembled by the military, the most promising being a larger model that sits on the back of a flatbed truck. This single unit, known as System 2, could be sent to Iraq as early as next year, according to Hymes of the Joint Non-Lethal Weapons Directorate.

Hymes' office, which nurtures promising technologies that can be used by the military branches, plans to spend $9 million over the next two years on the effort.

Money for additional systems isn't likely to be available until 2010, when an Air Force command in Massachusetts is expected to take control of the program, he said.

Recognizing the potential market, defense contractor Raytheon has invested its own money to build a version that the company calls "Silent Guardian." Although Hymes said the Raytheon product "is not ready yet," company representatives say it is.

Mike Booen, Raytheon's vice president for directed energy programs, said the company has produced one system that's immediately available.

"We have the capacity to build additional systems as needed," he said.

Raytheon has not sold any Silent Guardians to U.S. or foreign customers, and Booen would not discuss the product's price.

American commanders in Iraq already have asked to buy Raytheon's device.

A Dec. 1, 2006, urgent request signed by Marine Corps Maj. Gen. Robert Neller sought eight Silent Guardians.

Neller, then the deputy commander of the 1st Marine Expeditionary Force in Iraq, called the lack of such a non-lethal weapon a "chronic deficiency" that "will continue to harm" efforts to resolve showdowns with as little firepower as possible.

Other requests from officers in Iraq asked for the system as part of a broader weapons package on wheels, one that could shoot bullets as well as the non-lethal beam.

Such a versatile system would let troops deal with "increasingly complex operational environments where combatants are routinely intermixed with noncombatants," Army Brig. Gen. James Huggins said in an April 2005 memo to Pentagon officials.

Huggins, then chief of staff of the Multi-National Force in Iraq and now deputy commander of the 3rd Infantry Division, wanted 14 vehicles for missions ranging from raids to convoy escorts.

U.S. Central Command, which oversees military operations in Iraq from its base in Tampa, Fla., backed the request, saying it was "critical to build upon our success in the counterinsurgency battle," according to its memo to the Pentagon.

The vehicles were not delivered, however. Robert Buhrkuhl, a senior Pentagon acquisition official, said during congressional testimony in January that combining the various fixtures on a single vehicle presented major technical challenges.

In an interview, Franz Gayl, who was Neller's science adviser until the unit returned in February, blamed an entrenched, "risk-averse" military acquisition system for moving too slowly.

Gayl calls the system a "disruptive innovation" — an unconventional piece of equipment that breaks new ground and therefore is viewed skeptically by the offices that buy combat gear.

If the energy-beam weapon had been fielded when U.S. forces invaded Iraq, "many innocent Iraqi lives would have been spared," Gayl said.

[go bowe]

a ray gun?

i'd rather get tasered than shot with this thing...

[Cochise]

Concerned that it might be seen as a torture device?

This is why you prosecute it to the fullest extent of your capabilities, and not try to please the opposition that will never be pleased.

[patteeu]

Concerned that it might be seen as a torture device?

This is why you prosecute it to the fullest extent of your capabilities, and not try to please the opposition that will never be pleased.

Agree completely.

I'm skeptical about whether this device can really be employed with absolutely no chance of harmful effects, though. And I have no doubt that there'd be a chorus of objections from the usual suspects.

[Taco John]

Unbelievable how backwards this story is.

[HonestChieffan]

My skin feels like its on fire whenever Herm Edwards talks.

[StcChief]

Ray gun just what we don't want in enemy hands.

[gblowfish]

They put this into play, and every Iraqi will be wearing a tinfoil beanie....
Cool!

[CRONUS]

We have idiots leading this occupation and the denial of the use of this weapon just proves it. Lets kill people with bullets instead of making them feel pain to break up violence.

[Hydrae]

Concerned that it might be seen as a torture device?

This is why you prosecute it to the fullest extent of your capabilities, and not try to please the opposition that will never be pleased.


Let's see, should we have them possibly believe it is torture or should we just kill them? :hmmm:

[Nightwish]

We had a ray gun? Cool!!!!!! Was it a death ray? Could it be set on "stun" or "kill?" What we need is the "nude bomb," from Maxwell Smart fame! Shoe phones would be cool, too!

[Cochise]

Let's see, should we have them possibly believe it is torture or should we just kill them? :hmmm:

Well, which do you hear more outrage from the media about: A nameless civilian killed by a stray bomb or an Abu Ghraib prisoner who got a picture taken of his ass?

Uday and Qusay's rape houses, or prisoners at Gitmo forced to sleep on the floor?

If our erudite media is to be believed, killing people is no big deal, it's a few moments of pain or indignity that are the real crime. Obviously it's much better to just drop a bomb on that crowd than to break them up with some kind of non-lethal weapon.

[ChiefaRoo]

It's not a Ray nor is it a gun. It's more like a large Sat.dish that sends out invisible waves (maybe some form of a microwave, not sure) and when you get hit with it you feel like your skin is on fire. They also have another non-lethal that uses sound. The sound is so intense that it literally vibrates you to the point where you can't stand it anymore. Both of these weapons have been shown on tv on the military channel (Futureweapons).

[go bowe]

seems to me that this ray gun is pretty much like an high tech water cannon...

or a giant bean bag gun...

stun guns and tasers are legal...

so why don't they just go ahead and let our troops use the damned things?

[a1na2]

We have idiots leading this occupation and the denial of the use of this weapon just proves it. Lets kill people with bullets instead of making them feel pain to break up violence.

What kind of energy is going to make your skin feel hot? RF(microwave)? What damage does radiated energy do to human bodies? Which wavelength does the most damage to a human? How much exposure damages the cells in your body? The long term damage from the exposure is probably known, are we willing to kill more later than a few with bullets now?

In developing a weapon like that the end result, as in long term damage, isn't known for some time. Each persons body reacts differently to being bombarded by radiated energy.

Could the weapon be used for torture? Who knows, but in the right hands any weapon can be used as a torture device.

Make them feel pain instead of killing them with bullets...... When does the soldier firing the "ray gun" know when enough is enough? At what temperature does your heart explode? How about your other organs, what happens to your lungs if the air inside suddenly expands due to rising temperature?

I think there are far too many unanswered questions to say that this is a good use of technology for the stated purpose. If there was a way to prove that it did not damage people that would cause cancer or other maladies it might be useful, until we know more I'd say it is irresponsible to employ it in the hands of "bubba" the soldier.

[banyon]

What kind of energy is going to make your skin feel hot? RF(microwave)? What damage does radiated energy do to human bodies? Which wavelength does the most damage to a human? How much exposure damages the cells in your body? The long term damage from the exposure is probably known, are we willing to kill more later than a few with bullets now?

In developing a weapon like that the end result, as in long term damage, isn't known for some time. Each persons body reacts differently to being bombarded by radiated energy.

Could the weapon be used for torture? Who knows, but in the right hands any weapon can be used as a torture device.

Make them feel pain instead of killing them with bullets...... When does the soldier firing the "ray gun" know when enough is enough? At what temperature does your heart explode? How about your other organs, what happens to your lungs if the air inside suddenly expands due to rising temperature?

I think there are far too many unanswered questions to say that this is a good use of technology for the stated purpose. If there was a way to prove that it did not damage people that would cause cancer or other maladies it might be useful, until we know more I'd say it is irresponsible to employ it in the hands of "bubba" the soldier.

Weird, but I agree with everything in this post.

[Cochise]

The ADS works by directing electromagnetic radiation at a frequency of 95 GHz[3] toward the subjects. The waves excite water molecules in the epidermis to around 55 °C (130 degrees Fahrenheit), causing an intensely painful burning sensation. While not actually burning the skin, the burning sensation is similar to that of a light bulb being pressed against the skin.[3] The focused beam can be directed at targets at a range of just under half a kilometer, or 500 yards[4]. The device can penetrate thick clothing, although not walls[4]. There is no indication on the feasibility of electromagnetically shielding a person from its effects with a wire mesh or Faraday cage, in a similar manner that a microwave oven prevents radiation escaping. As the beam excites the water molecules in the skin, water bearing materials such as wet clothing/towels, wet pastes/gels, vegetables or meat could effectively absorb the energy.

A higher radio frequency is chosen because, as a property of electromagnetic waves (known as "skin depth"), they are unable to penetrate the body as deeply as lower frequency waves, thereby affecting external organs only, such as skin. The United States Military states the effect "penetrates the skin to a depth of less than 1/64 of an inch."[1] A spokesman for the Air Force Research Laboratory described his experience as a test subject for the system: "For the first millisecond, it just felt like the skin was warming up. Then it got warmer and warmer and you felt like it was on fire.... As soon as you're away from that beam your skin returns to normal and there is no pain."

The ADS is currently only a vehicle mounted weapon, however, U.S. Marines and police are both working on portable versions.

A fully operational and mounted system was demonstrated Wednesday, January 24, 2007, at Moody Air Force Base, Georgia. A Reuters correspondent who volunteered to be shot with the beam during the demonstration described it as "similar to a blast from a very hot oven - too painful to bear without diving for cover."[5]

The effects of this radio frequency on humans have been studied by the military for years, and much, but not all, of the research has been published openly in peer reviewed journals. A listing of many of these articles can be found on the military Joint Non-Lethal Weapons Program website on the ADS page.

Controversy as to the methodology of testing, in which volunteers were asked to remove glasses, contact lenses and metallic objects that could cause hot spots, has raised concerns as to whether the device would remain true to its purpose of non-lethal temporary incapacitation if used in the field where safety precautions would not be taken. Proponents of the system claim that these tests were early in the program and part of a thorough and methodical process to demonstrate the safety and effectiveness of the technology, which has now involved more than 600 volunteer subjects and some 10,200 exposures. As safety was demonstrated in each step of the process, restrictions were removed and now, according to ADS proponents, there are no restrictions or precautions necessary for volunteers experiencing the effect.[6]

Critics cite that although the stated intent of the ADS is to be a non-lethal device designed to temporarily incapacitate, easy modifications or incorrect use by the operator could turn the ADS into a torture device that would violate international conventions on warfare.


So basically, it works the way a microwave oven does, and it's not actually burning you, just creating the sensation of burning.

[a1na2]

Weird, but I agree with everything in this post.

Strong sedatives will help.

[CRONUS]

...

Make them feel pain instead of killing them with bullets...... When does the soldier firing the "ray gun" know when enough is enough? At what temperature does your heart explode? How about your other organs, what happens to your lungs if the air inside suddenly expands due to rising temperature?

....Even if your speculation is true, damage is not death. I think the enemy running away screaming would be a clue to any soldier that it had done its job.

But seeing how dense you have been on this BB maybe I am wrong.

[banyon]

So basically, it works the way a microwave oven does, and it's not actually burning you, just creating the sensation of burning.

Don't think I follow this. Seems like the wiki is saying that the wave is actually altering the level of activity on a molecular level. That's doing more than just creating a sensation. Raising the level too high would probably have similar effects to being inside of a microwave, likely leading to organ or tissue failure/cellular malfunctions.

[go bowe]

if they can do this, shouldn't we be able to invent a ray gun to destroy ied's?

it's the damned ied's and such that are causing the most harm to our troops...

surely the most technologically advanced country in the world should be able to defeat roadside bombs...

we have made some progress apparently, but the enemy keeps coming up with new methods for placing and exploding ied's...

we adapt, but they stay one step ahead of us most of the time...

like most wars, iraq sucks...

[Cochise]

I think the problem is that most of those ieds are hidden, right?

[a1na2]

Even if your speculation is true, damage is not death. I think the enemy running away screaming would be a clue to any soldier that it had done its job.

But seeing how dense you have been on this BB maybe I am wrong.

Do a little research on radiated energy injuries.

Low power radars have blown circuit breakers out of single phase distribution panels, the same radar beam can pass by a human without the human feeling anything physical.

I'm not an expert in the field by any means, but I have worked on systems that radiate RF for over 28 years and there are substantial warnings in and around the equipment. One of the warning signs about exposure has the skull and crossbones. Maybe it means nothing but if we are attempting to use the same power to dissuade people from misbehaving I tend to think there is more damage available to the human body that topical heating.

[go bowe]

I think the problem is that most of those ieds are hidden, right?every single one, no doubt...

my thought was that we should be able to find a new technology that would locate and destroy bombs along the route being taken...

we already have ground radar, so maby that could be paired with some variation of the ray gun to expode the ied's without going close to them...

and maby the chiefs will go 14-2 too (somebody's saying something about flying pigs, but i just can't quite make it out)...

[CRONUS]

Do a little research on radiated energy injuries.

Low power radars have blown circuit breakers out of single phase distribution panels, the same radar beam can pass by a human without the human feeling anything physical.

I'm not an expert in the field by any means, but I have worked on systems that radiate RF for over 28 years and there are substantial warnings in and around the equipment. One of the warning signs about exposure has the skull and crossbones. Maybe it means nothing but if we are attempting to use the same power to dissuade people from misbehaving I tend to think there is more damage available to the human body that topical heating.
I guess as an RF Systems engineer I might know a little on the subject. Let me just say that if they can build an anttena to direct the energy efficiently, you can trust that the skin will feel like it is buring long before significant internal organ damage can occur. The human skin membrane is an incredibly sensitive organ.

[a1na2]

I guess as an RF Systems engineer I might know a little on the subject. Let me just say that if they can build an anttena to direct the energy efficiently, you can trust that the skin will feel like it is buring long before significant internal organ damage can occur. The human skin membrane is an incredibly sensitive organ.

Let's see your scientific study that indicates that the rf is topical rather than able to penetrate the skin. How many megawatts of power are you generating to only burn the skin and do the work you need to do in your job? I dealt with minimal outputs. 40 MW for the countermeasures and IIRC the radar around 250 MW.

Effective antennas that will not have significant propagation loss and be sturdy enough to maintain structural integrity so as to not scatter the rf pattern? An antenna that can be cleaned by grunts without damaging the radiation characteristics or focus? How would they control the range? Moving parts and desert action don't seem compatible.

I figured an engineer might be able to spell a little better. anttena? buring?

Try using a spell checker.

[banyon]

I figured an engineer might be able to spell a little better. anttena? buring?

Try using a spell checker.

Grammatical errors in red.

Let's see your scientific study that indicates that the rf is topical rather than able to penetrate the skin.[fragment] How many megawatts of power are you generating to only burn [split infinitive]the skin and do the work you need to do in your job? I dealt with minimal outputs. 40 MW for the countermeasures and IIRC the radar around 250 MW.[fragment]

Effective antenna's[improper possessive usage] that will not have significant propagation loss and be sturdy enough to maintain structural integrity so as to not scatter the rf pattern? [fragment] An antenna that can be cleaned by grunts without damaging the radiation characteristics or focus? How would they control the range? Moving parts and desert action don't seem compatible.

[a1na2]

Grammatical errors in red.

I never claimed to be an RF engineer.

Hey puss, your inbox is full!

What a coward.

[banyon]

I never claimed to be an RF engineer.

No you claimed to be superior in your grammatical abilities to Logical because you found a couple of typos, you're not.

[a1na2]

No you claimed to be superior in your grammatical abilities to Logical because you found a couple of typos, you're not.

Gee, now I feel bad cause I'm not better than Mr. dumb.

I may have the poorest grammatical ability on the board, but I'm still a better person than you are.

I don't remember saying that Mr. dumb needed to improve his grammar, I told him that he needed to use a spell checker. I guess assholes have to read into comments to suit their needs.

[banyon]

Gee, now I feel bad cause I'm not better than Mr. dumb.

I may have the poorest grammatical ability on the board, but I'm still a better person than you are.

I don't remember saying that Mr. dumb needed to improve his grammar, I told him that he needed to use a spell checker. I guess assholes have to read into comments to suit their needs.

Ok this is beyond tiresome. I will put you on ignore until you get your next username after this one is banned.

[banyon]

There much better. And since my mailbox is full, you can't send me anymore of your petty PM's either.

[a1na2]

There much better. And since my mailbox is full, you can't send me anymore of your petty PM's either.

Cowardice at it's best!!

[CRONUS]

Let's see your scientific study that indicates that the rf is topical rather than able to penetrate the skin. How many megawatts of power are you generating to only burn the skin and do the work you need to do in your job? I dealt with minimal outputs. 40 MW for the countermeasures and IIRC the radar around 250 MW.

Effective antennas that will not have significant propagation loss and be sturdy enough to maintain structural integrity so as to not scatter the rf pattern? An antenna that can be cleaned by grunts without damaging the radiation characteristics or focus? How would they control the range? Moving parts and desert action don't seem compatible.

I figured an engineer might be able to spell a little better. anttena? buring?

Try using a spell checker.

You are an idiot, RF antennas do not have moving parts unless they are ancient technology. I believe my post talked about the issue of being sufficiently directional in generating the energy. By the way you might want to know about some more RF other than microwave oven technology when you inform people on the limitations of the technology.

As far as the actual weapon why don't you find some actual source data before you present your defense of this policy when you have no actual facts on the weapon technology. Or do you just like the idea of killing Muslim people so much that you cannot stand the idea of a technology that does not lead to that result.

As to my spelling errors, OMG I am so stupid, thanks for reminding me of my stupidity, it makes you so much better than me.

[a1na2]

You are an idiot, RF antennas do not have moving parts unless they are ancient technology. I believe my post talked about the issue of being sufficiently directional in generating the energy. By the way you might want to know about some more RF other than microwave oven technology when you inform people on the limitations of the technology.

As far as the actual weapon why don't you find some actual source data before you present your defense of this policy when you have no actual facts on the weapon technology. Or do you just like the idea of killing Muslim people so much that you cannot stand the idea of a technology that does not lead to that result.

As to my spelling errors, OMG I am so stupid, thanks for reminding me of my stupidity, it makes you so much better than me.


You didn't have to admit that you are stupid, I've known that for years.

I guess I'll have to go tell the guys that we have to shitcan our antenna. I guess frequency agility isn't used in the equipment you are engineering.

50 HZ to 20 GHZ seems to be enough bands of RF to give me a little spread.

I see you have reverted back to name calling to support your position. Sounds good, you need to keep it up.

[Pitt Gorilla]

This sounds awesome. We should be using this thing like yesterday.

[CRONUS]

You didn't have to admit that you are stupid, I've known that for years.

I guess I'll have to go tell the guys that we have to shitcan our antenna. I guess frequency agility isn't used in the equipment you are engineering.

50 HZ to 20 GHZ seems to be enough bands of RF to give me a little spread.

I see you have reverted back to name calling to support your position. Sounds good, you need to keep it up.

Tom, Tom, Tom why would you want frequency agility on a directed beam weapon that would operate at 1 frequency only? That would be the most silly application of a terminology related to RF I think I have ever seen. Most likely this weapon if it uses RF is at a single high frequency and would work by exciting the molecules in the skin causing the burning sensation they are suggesting. The Active Denial System (ADS) uses 95 GHz beams of energy Here is a write-up on the technology breakthrough.

Active Denial Technology uses a transmitter to send a narrow beam of 95-GHz millimeter waves towards an identified subject. Traveling at the speed of light, the energy reaches the subject and penetrates less than 1/64 of an inch into the skin, quickly heating up the skin's surface. The 95-GHz energy penetrates 1/64 inch into the skin and produces an intense burning sensation that stops when the transmitter is switched off or when the individual moves out of the beam. Within seconds, an individual feels an intense heating sensation that stops when the transmitter is shut off or when the individual moves out of the beam. According to reports, a 2-second burst from the system can heat the skin to a temperature of 130° F. At 50 °C, the pain reflex makes people pull away automatically in less than a second. Someone would have to stay in the beam for 250 seconds before it burnt the skin,


Here is a picture of the ADS system, looks like it would easily handle the abuse of soldiers.

http://blogs.usatoday.com/ondeadline/images/2007/08/29/raygun82907.jpg

[CRONUS]

By the way Tom Frequency Agility does not require moving parts.ROFL

[a1na2]

Tom, Tom, Tom why would you want frequency agility on a directed beam weapon that would operate at 1 frequency only? That would be the most silly application of a terminology related to RF I think I have ever seen. Most likely this weapon if it uses RF is at a single high frequency and would work by exciting the molecules in the skin causing the burning sensation they are suggesting. The Active Denial System (ADS) uses 95 GHz beams of energy Here is a write-up on the technology breakthrough.



Here is a picture of the ADS system, looks like it would easily handle the abuse of soldiers.

http://blogs.usatoday.com/ondeadline/images/2007/08/29/raygun82907.jpg

So you are saying that "bubba" would have the ability to point his weapon, with a narrow beam, at a crowd and with that narrow beam heat enough of the crowd to disperse them without riding the trigger and doing more than "warm them up"?

But what happens if the people faced with such a weapon can't just run away? What happens if they're trapped in a crowd, and the crowd can't move? How much pain must that crowd endure? How long can any member of the crowd be exposed to that weapon before his or her skin -- or their eyes -- simply cook off?

What happens if the devices are used deliberately in a manner designed to cause maximum harm -- say, by training the device on prisoners trapped in prison cells until they literally go mad with pain?

What happens if the system operator turns up the power? A little bit works well, why not try a lot?

What happens if the scientists didn't test the devices thoroughly, and they turn out to render anyone touched by them blind, or impotent, or sterile?

I need a lot of convincing before I believe that weapons designed expressly to cause pain are humane.

There are NO "nonlethal" weapons when in the hands of military personnel. Weapons which disable or confuse enemy troops are those used to prepare subsequent removal of threats by lethal force. This was the classical use of poison gas during WWI and in the Iran-Iraq War. When nonlethal arms are available, one prevents enemy weapon use nonlethally, and then applies the lethal force. Of course, whatever the weaponry, if capture is feasible, it will be carried out; it doesn't matter whether nonlethal alternatives are available -- and they load down our combatants with ineffective equipment.

This differs from police use, where the objective is law enforcement, not killing, threat removal, or capture of facilities (we hope).

The above are just two comments that I found that indicate that the weapon system is not now, nor should be, deployed. Considering the abuses at Abu Garib by a few "well meaning" CIA agents and military guards.

I don't get the feeling that the weapon is considered viable by more than a few people and that it should not be employed by the military.

[Radar Chief]

seems to me that this ray gun is pretty much like an high tech water cannon...

or a giant bean bag gun...

stun guns and tasers are legal...

so why don't they just go ahead and let our troops use the damned things?

Think more like a radio transmitter on steroids.

http://blogs.usatoday.com/ondeadline/images/2007/08/29/raygun82907.jpg

Wow, that’s freak’n huge. :eek:

[Radar Chief]

Tom, banyon and Cochise all bring up good points. Another I don’t see being considered is RF interference with other equipment.
Our military equipment would probably be less effected by this than civilian equipment since most military equipment is shield grounded, the “Faraday cage” type thingy from Cochise’s Wiki quote.
But still, what if this thing were operating close to an airport and a civilian plane crashed? Even if it didn’t cause the electronics to freak out and crash the plane the possibility is introduced and you can be guaranteed that someone will screech that it did.

[Duck Dog]

There weren't any innocents in Fallujah. Screw the ray gun, we should have dropped MOAB on them.

[go bowe]

No you claimed to be superior in your grammatical abilities to Logical because you found a couple of typos, you're not.please, please, please...

do not feed the trolls....

[go bowe]

Think more like a radio transmitter on steroids.



Wow, that’s freak’n huge. :eek:yes, yes it is...

my guess is that if the army does use this thing, they will catch some flack from the usual suspects...

fortunately, those tossing the flack don't have any control over what the army does or does not do...

btw, i think the politicians who started this war should be used as test subjects for the new gizmos as they roll off the line...

[go bowe]

Tom, banyon and Cochise all bring up good points. Another I don’t see being considered is RF interference with other equipment.
Our military equipment would probably be less effected by this than civilian equipment since most military equipment is shield grounded, the “Faraday cage” type thingy from Cochise’s Wiki quote.
But still, what if this thing were operating close to an airport and a civilian plane crashed? Even if it didn’t cause the electronics to freak out and crash the plane the possibility is introduced and you can be guaranteed that someone will screech that it did.in this place screeching is all but guaranteed regardless of the issue...

i'd guess that there would be a pretty specific set of rules of engagement for this weapon regarding where it may be used and, more importantly, where it cannot be used...

[listopencil]

So...tom cash thinks it's OK to refer to our nation's fighting men and women as "Bubba" in order to imply stupidity and/or incompetence? Wow. A slur against our military with a racist/elitist overtone.

[a1na2]

So...he thinks it's OK to refer to our nation's fighting men and women as "Bubba" in order to imply stupidity and/or incompetence? Wow. A slur against our military with a racist/elitist overtone.

With people like you everyting is racist/elitist overtones. You apparently have zero experience with people. There are just as many people, percentage wise in the military that are less educated than the average American, and just in case you haven't figured it out there is only one race on this earth. Until you get a grasp on that you will always be the person getting attacked by racism.

[listopencil]

I must have hit a nerve. Not only did I get a reply from you on this thread but one of your rambling, idiotic PM's as well. Go look up "Bubba" as a slang term in any major dictionary. Dumbass. I'll be laughing at you again when you get banned...again.

[a1na2]

I must have hit a nerve. Not only did I get a reply from you on this thread but one of your rambling, idiotic PM's as well. Go look up "Bubba" as a slang term in any major dictionary. Dumbass. I'll be laughing at you again when you get banned...again.

Why would I be banned? I've done nothing to cause a banning.

Your slang for bubba is just about as worthwhile as you are. It is apparent that you do not have the ability to comprehend the meaning of what I wrote. It's time for you to forget about your hatred of anything white and move on.

[CRONUS]

With people like you everyting is racist/elitist overtones. You apparently have zero experience with people. There are just as many people, percentage wise in the military that are less educated than the average American, and just in case you haven't figured it out there is only one race on this earth. Until you get a grasp on that you will always be the person getting attacked by racism.Lord you are a jackass, I try to put up with you thinking maybe you will improve. Welcome to iggy again.

[go bowe]

Agree completely.

I'm skeptical about whether this device can really be employed with absolutely no chance of harmful effects, though. And I have no doubt that there'd be a chorus of objections from the usual suspects.i don't see how it's fundementally different from a taser or stun gun, other than its a whole a lot bigger and clumsy looking...

[a1na2]

Lord you are a jackass, I try to put up with you thinking maybe you will improve. Welcome to iggy again.

I would be offended if I had one ounce of respect for you, but alas, I do not. Thanks for putting me on iggy, that way I don't have to see your onesided arguments

[CRONUS]

Agree completely.

I'm skeptical about whether this device can really be employed with absolutely no chance of harmful effects, though. And I have no doubt that there'd be a chorus of objections from the usual suspects.

Since when can we break up crowds with bullets without harmful effects?

[listopencil]

Heh heh heh, tom cash showing his true colors again. It was you, you incredible dumbass, that made use of the term "Bubba". It's a racial slur...directed at poor uneducated White Southerners. It's especially disgusting to see you use it against military personnel as you fall back on your own military service occasionally to try to lend credence to your idiotic ramblings.

By the way, regarding my "hatred of whites" that you referred to in those pathetic PM's you sent me- I'm white. I'm also from Virginia. Yep. That's right. I'm a White Southerner. And we didn't refer to "Bubbas" back when I was in the US Navy. In fact, everyone tended to avoid racial slurs. Even ****bags like you. I guess you are a lot braver behind a keyboard than in person, huh Nancy?

[a1na2]

Since when can we break up crowds with bullets without harmful effects?


So, Dr. Doom, you are admitting that the "heat gun" can cause harmful effects?

In the wrong hands any weapon can cause harmful effects.

[a1na2]

I'm a racist bigot.

That's all I can see in anything you post. Some day you will realize that there is only one race and that race is the human race.

[patteeu]

Since when can we break up crowds with bullets without harmful effects?

:spock: I don't know why you think that's a relevant comment.

I was expressing skepticism about the statement in the OP article that this device doesn't cause injury. I didn't mention bullets.

[go bowe]

my wife recently got a magic bullet...

seriously, a magic bullet...

i told her that the military probably won't use it until the next war, if at all...

it works too well and doesn't cost a fortune...

probably the canadians will develop one of their own to help stop people from entering canada illegally (or was that the mexicans?)...

[a1na2]

go bowe is also irrelevant

[a1na2]

:spock: I don't know why you think that's a relevant comment.

I was expressing skepticism about the statement in the OP article that this device doesn't cause injury. I didn't mention bullets.

You are right, that comment was not relevant to the discussion, but when you talk about war and anti-war there is a distinct hard wall thatm unlike the Berlin Wall, will not come down.

[go bowe]

Since when can we break up crowds with bullets without harmful effects?ther israelis have been doing it for years...

they use rubber bullets and tear gas, most of the time...

of course, real bullets do quite a lot of damage...

i think a combination of these methods will do the trick...

including the ray gun...

[CRONUS]

:spock: I don't know why you think that's a relevant comment.

I was expressing skepticism about the statement in the OP article that this device doesn't cause injury. I didn't mention bullets.

Maybe from the article?

WASHINGTON - Saddam Hussein had been gone just a few weeks, and U.S. forces in Fallujah, west of Baghdad, were already being called unwelcome invaders. One of the first big anti-American protests of the war escalated into shootouts that left 18 Iraqis dead and 78 wounded.

It would be a familiar scene in Iraq's next few years: Crowds gather, insurgents mingle with civilians. Troops open fire, and innocents die.

[listopencil]

T[/b]om Cash]That's all I can see in anything you post. Some day you will realize that there is only one race and that race is the human race.

You only see what fits into your tiny narrow mind, you ignorant jackass. So I take it you're going to stop making racist comments now that I called you on it? Glad to see that I could enlighten you. Carry on, fuqtard.

[Adept Havelock]

You only see what fits into your tiny narrow mind, you ignorant jackass. So I take it you're going to stop making racist comments now that I called you on it? Glad to see that I could enlighten you. Carry on, fuqtard.

In the absence of Mr. Go Bowe...

.

[a1na2]

In the absence of Mr. Go Bowe...

.

Now listopencildork is going to call you a racist!

[listopencil]

Now listopencil is going to call you a racist!



Why would I? He doesn't use racial slurs like you do. By the way, Tom...did you read that list of what constitutes a "troll"? Pay special attention to the last one.


Oh look, Tom has sent me another love letter via PM. I keep telling you I don't swing that way. I hope you find your Mr. Right someday. Good luck.

[a1na2]

Yamma yamma yamma - you're a racist

If you want me to be a racist so badly, I'll be one. Your view of racism is extremely biased and I think that your position in racism comments far outreaches anything I've ever said or done.

You can continue with your whining now.

[patteeu]

Maybe from the article?

You quoted me. Your comment wasn't relevant to mine in any way. If you want to comment on a completely different aspect of the article then you don't really need to quote me as if you are responding to something I said.

[Programmer]

Why would I? He doesn't use racial slurs like you do. By the way, Tom...did you read that list of what constitutes a "troll"? Pay special attention to the last one.


Oh look, Tom has sent me another love letter via PM. I keep telling you I don't swing that way. I hope you find your Mr. Right someday. Good luck.

You two need to get a room and get your gay love affair out of the DC forum.

Remember to use protection.

[go bowe]

So...tom cash thinks it's OK to refer to our nation's fighting men and women as "Bubba" in order to imply stupidity and/or incompetence? Wow. A slur against our military with a racist/elitist overtone.i thought bubba was the name of the guy who deflowered you in prison..

and there's a southern bubba that translates into a good old boy (usually quite large)...

good old boys are sometimes described as bubba if others percieve that they are stupid...

but talking funny (it sounds that way to a midwesterner), and wearing boots all the time will get you called bubba too...

but like most slurs, the same word or phrase can be a term of endearment among friends...

[CRONUS]

You quoted me. Your comment wasn't relevant to mine in any way. If you want to comment on a completely different aspect of the article then you don't really need to quote me as if you are responding to something I said.My error I thought we were discussing the thread article in this thread. How stupid of me.:rolleyes:

[CRONUS]

You two need to get a room and get your gay love affair out of the DC forum.

Remember to use protection.Voldemortom, I thought you were going to limit yourself to one username?

[go bowe]

In the absence of Mr. Go Bowe...

.good job, but i usually don't (never) post pics or drawings...

just a few smilelies when i'm in the mood...

but still i appreciate your thinking of me...

and i appreciate you noticing my name change..

now, go forth and spread good cheer... PBJ PBJ PBJ

[go bowe]

You two need to get a room and get your gay love affair out of the DC forum.

Remember to use protection.now hold on there pardner...

gay lovefests are hugely entertaining to us here in dc...

and nobody but nobody could possibly suggest that anyone from this web site would ever share a room with tommy boy...

so there... :) :) :)

[a1na2]

Voldemortom, I thought you were going to limit yourself to one username?

I got to say, that's real nice. I wish I could live up to your expectations but alas it's not something I can do.

[a1na2]

Posted by go bowe - Today at 12:35 PM
This person is on your Ignore List.
Posted by go bowe - Today at 12:25 PM
This person is on your Ignore List.

Eh? What say? Can't hear ya!

[Adept Havelock]

Why would I? He doesn't use racial slurs like you do. By the way, Tom...did you read that list of what constitutes a "troll"? Pay special attention to the last one.


Oh look, Tom has sent me another love letter via PM. I keep telling you I don't swing that way. I hope you find your Mr. Right someday. Good luck.


Oh, FYI listopencil...I was not referring to you as a troll. I chose the incorrect Jpeg. My sincere apologies.

I only wanted to remind you that feeding trolls, while tempting, is not a good practice.


good job, but i usually don't (never) post pics or drawings...

just a few smilelies when i'm in the mood...

but still i appreciate your thinking of me...

and i appreciate you noticing my name change..

now, go forth and spread good cheer... PBJ PBJ PBJ


Thank you kindly. I shall. I may even spread some Good Clorox and Good Tide as well.