Lew Rockwell outlines his dream first 30-days of a Ron Paul Presidency

[Taco John]

He wrote this back in 1991, and his site just ressurected it... Good stuff! :clap: But note: this is not what Ron Paul himself would do. This is what Lew Rockwell would like to see happen.


Rockwell's Thirty-Day Plan
Lew Rockwell's classic 30-day plan for less government.
by Llewellyn H. Rockwell, Jr.


When Eastern Europe broke free in 1989, we all realized just how little thought had been given to the transition from socialism to capitalism. Mises had told us the collapse was coming, and we should have been prepared.

As America comes to resemble a command economy, we need a transition plan here too. Yuri Maltsev proposed a "One-Year Plan" for the U.S.S.R. We're not in that bad a shape (yet), so we could do it in 30 days.

DAY ONE: The federal income tax is abolished and April 15th is declared a national holiday. The 40% reduction in federal revenues is matched by a 40% cut in spending. The budget is still almost twice as big as Jimmy Carter's.

DAY TWO: All other federal taxes are abolished, including the corporate income tax, the capital gains tax, the gasoline tax, "sin" taxes, excise taxes, etc. Businesses boom, and the few legitimate federal functions are funded with an inexpensive head tax. People who choose not to vote need not pay it. (Note: this was a mainstream view in the 19th century.)

DAY THREE: The federal government sells all its land, freeing up tens of millions of acres for development, mining, farming, forestry, oil drilling, private parks, etc. The government uses the revenue to pay off the national debt and other liabilities.

DAY FOUR: The minimum wage is reduced to zero, creating jobs for ex-federal bureaucrats at their market wage. All pro-union laws and regulations are scrapped. The jobless rate falls dramatically.

DAY FIVE: The Bureau of Labor Statistics, like the rest of the Labor Department, is sent to that big hiring hall in the sky. Without detailed economic statistics, future economic planners will be blind and deaf.

DAY SIX: The Department of Commerce is abolished. Big business has to make its own way in the world, without subsidies and privileges at the expense of its competitors and customers.

DAY SEVEN: The plug is pulled on the Department of Energy. Oil and gas prices plummet.

DAY EIGHT: All regulatory agencies, from the Interstate Commerce Commission to the Federal Trade Commission, are deep-sixed. Competition is legalized.

DAY NINE: HUD is squashed like a bug. There's a building boom in cheap, private, apartments.

DAY TEN: The interstate highways reopen as private businesses. Road entrepreneurs price travel according to consumer demand. Using modern technology, drivers get bills once a month. Credit risks – and drunks and dangerous drivers – aren't allowed on the road. Non-drivers no longer subsidize car owners.

DAY ELEVEN: Government welfare is wiped out. Bums work or starve. The deserving poor find a cornucopia of private services designed to make them independent. Private charity explodes, as the American people, already the most generous in the world, find their incomes almost doubled, thanks to the tax cuts.

DAY TWELVE: The Federal Reserve closes its open-market operations and stops protecting the banking industry from competition. But banks can now engage in all the non-bank financial activities previously forbidden to them. The business cycle, which is caused by monetary expansion through the credit markets, is liquidated.

DAY THIRTEEN: Federal deposit insurance is scrapped. All insured deposits are redeemed from federal assets, which include the personal assets of high-level government employees. The threat of bank runs forces banks to keep 100% reserves for their demand deposits, and prudent reserves on all other accounts. There are no more inherently bankrupt banks propped up by the government, at taxpayer expense, and no more bail-outs.

DAY FOURTEEN: The shaky fiat dollar is defined in terms of gold, with the ratio determined by dividing the government's gold stock by all existing dollars on that day.

DAY FIFTEEN: The federal government sells National and Dulles airports to the highest bidder, and stops all subsidies to other socialist airports around the country. All constraints on airline prices and service cease. It costs more to fly during peak hours than off-peak, but overall, air travel drops in price.

DAY SIXTEEN: All government regulations that create and sustain cartels are abolished, including those for the post office, telephones, television, radio, and cable TV. Prices plummet, and a host of new and unforeseen services becomes available.

DAY SEVENTEEN: Centrally planned agriculture, as imposed by Hoover and Roosevelt, is repealed: there are no more subsidies, payments-in-kind, marketing orders, low-interest loans, etc. Farm prices drop. Entrepreneurial farmers get rich. Welfare farmers go into another line of work. The poor eat like kings.

DAY EIGHTEEN: The Justice Department shutters its anti-trust division. Companies, big and small, are free to merge – up, down, or sideways. Stockholders can buy any other company, or sell their stock to anyone else. Marginal producers can no longer battle their competitors with bureaucratic weapons.

DAY NINETEEN: The Department of Education flunks the constitutionality test, and is kicked out. Private charities set up remedial reading and writing programs for the former bureaucrats. Federally subsidized sex education and other anti-family programs go out of business. Local school districts become responsive to parents or close, pressured by a fast-growing private school sector (which many more parents can now afford).

DAY TWENTY: All federal monuments are sold, in some cases to non-profit groups based on the Mt. Vernon Ladies Association, which owns and runs George Washington's home. The VFW buys the Vietnam memorial. There is much bidding for the Jefferson and Washington monuments. Nobody wants FDR's, so it's torn down and the land sold to a farmer. (With the federal government cut back to its constitutional size, much of Washington reverts to productive uses like agriculture, as in late 18th century.)

DAY TWENTY-ONE: The computerized financial and political dossier maintained by the government on every American is erased. The public wanders through the federal offices to make sure, in a reprise of the East Berliners' visits to Stasi headquarters.

DAY TWENTY-TWO: Equal rights are granted to all Americans, even members of non-victim groups. There is no affirmative action, no quotas, no set-asides, no public accommodations laws. Private property and freedom of association are fully restored.

DAY TWENTY-THREE: The EPA is cleaned out, with all "clean air" and similar big-government laws repealed. Ten thousand lawyers leap from their balconies. Private property is established in air and water. Americans harmed by pollution are free to sue the polluters, who are no longer protected by the federal government.

DAY TWENTY-FOUR: Americans are given complete freedom of contract, restoring rationality to malpractice and product liability law.

DAY TWENTY-FIVE: Government scrambles for more assets to sell (i.e., the National Zoo, also known as Washington, D.C.) to pay off the liabilities of the privatized Social Security system.

DAY TWENTY-SIX: Porno artists have to earn their own livings, as the National Endowment for the Arts tries to raise its budget through sidewalk painting sales.

DAY TWENTY-SEVEN: Foreign aid is outlawed as unconstitutional, unjust, and un-economic. Foreign politicians have to steal their own money. The World Bank, IMF, and United Nations close their super-luxurious doors.

DAY TWENTY-EIGHT: The American people are given the unrestricted right to keep and bear arms.

DAY TWENTY-NINE: The Defense Department is reoriented towards defense. American troops come home from all around the world. We adopt a policy of armed neutrality, remembering the Founding Fathers' teaching that we could not have an empire abroad and a constitutional republic at home.

DAY THIRTY: All tariffs, quotas, and trade agreements are put through the shredder. Americans can trade with anyone in the world, without barriers or subsidies. Japanese car prices drop an immediate 25%.

In just 30 exhilarating days, we have established the outlines of free market. Radical? Maybe so. Me, I can't wait until Month Two.

This article appeared in The Free Market for March 1991.

August 30, 2007

[BucEyedPea]

Ten thousand lawyers leap from their balconies. LMAO


DAY FIVE: The Bureau of Labor Statistics, like the rest of the Labor Department, is sent to that big hiring hall in the sky. Without detailed economic statistics, future economic planners will be blind and deaf.itutional republic at home.

But, but, but Cochise won't be able to know when there's a price increase on something without his CPI card to refer to. He believes he can't leave home without it.

I think we might add Lew is a "purist"...a pure libertarian's libertarian.

[Taco John]

I think we might add Lew is a "purist"...a pure libertarian's libertarian.


Absolutely. Ron Paul would probably agree with a lot, if not most of what Lew is saying, but he's practical enough to know that there is no "30 day solution."

Paul would definitely focus on the economic/taxation aspect of the government in an attempt to put more money in the people's pocket and less in the governments. From there the focus would be on making the right type of cuts so that the government could live within it's means while still living up to its Constitutional mandates.

[BucEyedPea]

Agreed.

DAY NINE: HUD is squashed like a bug. There's a building boom in cheap, private, apartments.
But, but, but this is NeoCon Jack Kemp's baby!

[SBK]

Until you read something like this you sometimes forget how out of bounds our gov't has really become. Jeesh.

[Adept Havelock]

It's as good a pipe dream as "True Communism" was, I suppose.

[Baby Lee]

DAY THIRTY ONE - All laws are repealed, entrepreneurs set up cottage industries guaranteeing not to kill or rob you for a reasonable fee. Sopranos fans rejoice. ;)

[Taco John]

There are some things on that list that I will admit to being nervous about. For instance, Federally protected land. That one I really struggle with, because I'm a backpacker, and I'd hate to see some of the great trails that I like to head on turn into subdivisions or amusement parks.

For my part, I would rather see the federal government turn those lands over to the states in which they reside, and leave it to them to determine their protectionary status. There are a lot of tourism dollars at stake for these states. It would be up to the locally representative governments to determine their fates.

[Taco John]

DAY THIRTY ONE - All laws are repealed, entrepreneurs set up cottage industries guaranteeing not to kill or rob you for a reasonable fee. Sopranos fans rejoice. ;)



Not all laws... you'll note that the laws that got repealed in his commentary were all laws that granted big government more power over people's lives.

[BucEyedPea]

Going back to the budget of Carter is a pipe dream?
We were there once, including for much of the rest.

[BucEyedPea]

There are some things on that list that I will admit to being nervous about. For instance, Federally protected land. That one I really struggle with, because I'm a backpacker, and I'd hate to see some of the great trails that I like to head on turn into subdivisions or amusement parks.

For my part, I would rather see the federal government turn those lands over to the states in which they reside, and leave it to them to determine their protectionary status. There are a lot of tourism dollars at stake for these states. It would be up to the locally representative governments to determine their fates.
Or they might be better stewards of those lands. If people love those parks so much, there should be enough of a market to keep them like that as a tourist industry. OTOH, I don't mind keeping the Nat'l Parks but I would stop the endless federal land grab that's been going on where there are no parks. Since I am paleo-con, I have no problems with some tariffs solely as a revenue source though—not to protect an industry from competition and not so high to discourage trade. Our Founders had tariffs as a way to fund the govt. That's the least a foreign competitor could do to gain access to the rich and profitable US market. OTOH, a national sales tax, which pure libertarians don't support, would be something they'd have to collect too I guess...but I say this in the absence of a tariff.

[Baby Lee]

Not all laws... you'll note that the laws that got repealed in his commentary were all laws that granted big government more power over people's lives.
They are presently exerting power to stop me from utilizing my brains and brawn to extract riches from the weaker and less entreprenuerial, and end their lives if it furthers my aims.

[Chest Rockwell]

I know what you're all thinking here, and let me clear things up:

No relation.

Carry on.

[Taco John]

They are presently exerting power to stop me from utilizing my brains and brawn to extract riches from the weaker and less entreprenuerial, and end their lives if it furthers my aims.


:spock:

[Laz]

DAY SEVEN: The plug is pulled on the Department of Energy. Oil and gas prices plummet





how is killing the Dept. of energy gonna drop fuel prices?

not gonna happen

it would skyrocket and become the price of gold as the oil companies literally hold the country for ransom (is a more likely scenario)

[Taco John]

Rockwell has just added month two! He starts shaking a leg a little here, and gets zany... But it's a fun read.


Rockwell's Next Thirty Days
by Llewellyn H. Rockwell, Jr.

Last time, I laid out my "Thirty Day Plan" for de-socializing America. But I didn't scrap all of big government; now it's time for more:

DAY ONE: Foreign junkets are outlawed. If anyone on the federal payroll wants to fly overseas, he has to buy his own ticket. The State Department, Congress, and White House go into hyperventilation.

DAY TWO: Medicare and Medicaid are abolished as illegitimate transfers of wealth that drive up the cost of care. HHS, whose insolent $30,000 clerks can't speak intelligible English, goes out of business.

DAY THREE: The Supreme Court reads the Constitution, and reverses every court decision of the last fifty years.

DAY FOUR: The doors of the Legal Services Corporation are nailed shut. The envious must now pay for their own anti-business lawsuits.

DAY FIVE: Marxist inheritance taxes are terminated as the moral equivalent of stealing pennies from a dead man's eyes.

DAY SIX: To help prevent the growth of a new welfare state, the franchise is restricted: no one on the dole, which includes government employees, may vote.

DAY SEVEN: Civil service is abolished, and the grand, old Jefferson-Jackson "spoils system" reintroduced. With "rotation in office," there is no permanent governing class of officials, and voters can actually change the government.

DAY EIGHT: Racial set-asides are repealed. The remaining government contractors are judged on ability.

DAY NINE: The Equal Employment Opportunity Commission is axed; 126 years after slavery, employers are freed. They can hire, fire, and promote on their property as they think best

DAY TEN: The Food and Drug Administration is killed. The First Amendment now applies to commercial speech, and producers and consumers decide the content of food labels. Patients and doctors determine what drugs to use, and a host of life-saving drugs and medical devices are developed.

DAY ELEVEN: National Public Radio is replaced by static, a big improvement. Taxpayers no longer subsidize hysterical left-wing broadcasts about the oppression (i.e., non-funding) of transvestite Kenyan obukano street musicians.

DAY TWELVE: The war on drugs is no more. Prices and therefore street crime plummet, and hoodlums no longer grow rich, thus restoring the natural socioeconomic hierarchy.

DAY THIRTEEN: Mother-Knows-Best government is gagged: no more hectoring about tobacco and alcohol.

DAY FOURTEEN: NASA is blasted. Private businesses and scientific organizations now launch satellites at their own expense. If Star Trek fans want space exploration, they are free to pay for it.

DAY FIFTEEN: The Old Executive Office Building next door to the White House becomes a museum of big government. Although now housing just part of the president's personal staff, it once held the entire departments of War, State, and Interior.

DAY SIXTEEN: Head Start, the beloved but incompetent children's welfare program, is abolished as a scam on the taxpayers and an unwarranted intrusion into families.

DAY SEVENTEEN: The Office of the United States Trade Representative is abolished, along with every tariff, quota, and "free trade" agreement. Businesses negotiate their own deals with foreign governments, at no cost to the taxpayer.

DAY EIGHTEEN: The Export-Import Bank and the Overseas Private Investment Corp are shut down. American corporations doing business overseas must now bear their own costs.

DAY NINETEEN: Sixty-eight federal commissions, boards, and committees are scrapped, including the Appalachian Regional Commission, the Indian Arts and Crafts Board, and the Permanent Committee for the Oliver Wendell Holmes Device.

DAY TWENTY: Government and quasi-government museums like the Smithsonian are privatized, and soon discover that regular Americans won't pay to see left-wing, state-exalting, anti-American multicultural extravaganzas, or a mirror hanging on a wall and labeled: "Mirror."

DAY TWENTY-ONE: The Federal Emergency Management Administration is abolished. Disaster relief is left to private charities, which actually provide it, and there are no more FEMA schemes for "emergency" bureaucratic takeovers of the country.

DAY TWENTY-TWO: Any federal agency whose initials are incomprehensible to the average taxpayer is bumped off, including FHFB, FLRA, FMSHRC, and FRTIB.

DAY TWENTY-THREE: The Americans with Disabilities Act, which burdens businesses with new regulatory costs and shuts the most severely disabled people out of the work force, is killed.

DAY TWENTY-FOUR: The Seventeenth Amendment mandating direct election of U.S. senators is repealed, and state legislatures once again elect senators as their representatives, vastly strengthening the states as against the federal ex-leviathan.

DAY TWENTY-FIVE: Bankruptcy laws are repealed; debtors who refuse to pay their debts are treated as virtual thieves.

DAY TWENTY-SIX: The FHA, Ginnie Mae, Freddie Mac, Fannie Mae, and all other agencies that subsidize housing are torn down. No longer is there malinvestment in this area.

DAY TWENTY-SEVEN: The U.S. Foreign Service, whose ambassadors live luxuriously in mansions with retinues of personal servants, is replaced with fax machines.

DAY TWENTY-EIGHT: To protect American sovereignty and independence, the U.S. left the U.N., the I.M.F., and the World Bank in my first 30 days. Now we leave 46 other globaloney outfits, including the International Labor Organization, the World Health Organization, and the Inter-American Tropical Tuna Commission.

DAY TWENTY-NINE: We continue, junking the International Jute Organization, the International Criminal Police Organization, the International Office of Epizootics [horse fungus], the International Office of Vine and Wine, and the International Rubber Study Group.

DAY THIRTY: Finally, we dump the International Union for the Protection of New Varieties of Plants, the African Development Bank, the Asian Development Bank, the Inter-American Development Bank, the International Development Association, and the International Finance Corporation. Bankrupt foreign politicos must now apply to the Household Finance Corporation.

This article appeared in The Free Market for January 1992.

August 31, 2007

[BucEyedPea]

DAY ONE: Foreign junkets are outlawed. If anyone on the federal payroll wants to fly overseas, he has to buy his own ticket. The State Department, Congress, and White House go into hyperventilation.
I never understood this one. Aren't they supposed to govern America? I think they just like the exotic travel.

DAY THREE: The Supreme Court reads the Constitution, and reverses every court decision of the last fifty years.
:D

DAY ELEVEN: National Public Radio is replaced by static, a big improvement.
ROFL

DAY FOURTEEN: NASA is blasted. Private businesses and scientific organizations now launch satellites at their own expense. If Star Trek fans want space exploration, they are free to pay for it.
Might as well nix most govt funded research in science...which means cancer would more likely be cured and a breaktrhough energy source no one ever thought of would be discovered.

DAY SEVENTEEN: The Office of the United States Trade Representative is abolished, along with every tariff, quota, and "free trade" agreement. Businesses negotiate their own deals with foreign governments, at no cost to the taxpayer.
Never thought of that. What a great idea! :thumb:
Never understand why Pubs/Conservatives even support this nonsense.

DAY EIGHTEEN: The Export-Import Bank and the Overseas Private Investment Corp are shut down. American corporations doing business overseas must now bear their own costs.
:thumb:

DAY TWENTY: Government and quasi-government museums like the Smithsonian are privatized, and soon discover that regular Americans won't pay to see left-wing, state-exalting, anti-American multicultural extravaganzas, or a mirror hanging on a wall and labeled: "Mirror."
:thumb: I love the way Lew says things!

DAY TWENTY-FOUR: The Seventeenth Amendment mandating direct election of U.S. senators is repealed, and state legislatures once again elect senators as their representatives, vastly strengthening the states as against the federal ex-leviathan.
:thumb:

DAY TWENTY-SEVEN: The U.S. Foreign Service, whose ambassadors live luxuriously in mansions with retinues of personal servants, is replaced with fax machines.
ROFL
DAY TWENTY-EIGHT: To protect American sovereignty and independence, the U.S. left the U.N., the I.M.F., and the World Bank in my first 30 days. Now we leave 46 other globaloney outfits, including the International Labor Organization, the World Health Organization, and the Inter-American Tropical Tuna Commission.
I will never understand Republican Conservatives that support these things either.

_______

I think I like the second half more than the first. We lived without most of this stuff before and we can live without it all again.

[Taco John]

I will never understand Republican Conservatives that support these things either.


I read an article about it tonight (regarding the federal Katrina "effort") that voiced a lot of the stuff I mentioned to Logical last night.


"Its remarkable when the liberal infestation in our government makes itself so clear that no one can deny it. Sure the infestation is so pronounced on the Democratic side of the isle that it is hard to ignore but we also have to stand up and take note when the Republicans (often mislabeled "conservatives") also show how liberal they really are too for the most part. They might not be as far down the dark path to socialism and unconstitutional government as the Democratic Party, but they are not that far behind.

Source (http://www.thelandofthefree.net/conservativepoliticalopinion/republicandemocratnannystate.html)


The truth of the matter is that we live in a socialist nation. We all know that socialism doesn't work. But rather than fight to restore the republic, the republicans have opted to get the most out of the socialist system that they can, while exploiting grand ideals, or worse, people's fear in power grabs. As far as I'm concerned, Karl Rove is the American Rasputin, though in his own unique mold.

[Silock]

Some of that stuff is nuts crazy, some of it is good.

[patteeu]

This article appeared in The Free Market for January 1992.

Repost. ;)

[HonestChieffan]

Gotta love the internet. Every kook in the world can be published.

Sadly some actually believe what they read.

Kook...write it down...and put in the kook file behind Ron Paul

[patteeu]

I read an article about it tonight (regarding the federal Katrina "effort") that voiced a lot of the stuff I mentioned to Logical last night.


"Its remarkable when the liberal infestation in our government makes itself so clear that no one can deny it. Sure the infestation is so pronounced on the Democratic side of the isle that it is hard to ignore but we also have to stand up and take note when the Republicans (often mislabeled "conservatives") also show how liberal they really are too for the most part. They might not be as far down the dark path to socialism and unconstitutional government as the Democratic Party, but they are not that far behind.

Source (http://www.thelandofthefree.net/conservativepoliticalopinion/republicandemocratnannystate.html)


The truth of the matter is that we live in a socialist nation. We all know that socialism doesn't work. But rather than fight to restore the republic, the republicans have opted to get the most out of the socialist system that they can, while exploiting grand ideals, or worse, people's fear in power grabs. As far as I'm concerned, Karl Rove is the American Rasputin, though in his own unique mold.

I agree with all of this (except the weird singling out of Karl Rove at the end), but what I don't understand is why so many Paul supporters (not talking about you or BEP here) are just coming to this realization now, of all times, when were are smack dab in the middle of a war?

[BucEyedPea]

Gotta love the internet. Every kook in the world can be published.

Sadly some actually believe what they read.

Kook...write it down...and put in the kook file behind Ron Paul

Are you projecting? I think so.
Guess you like being a conformist.
I've got a kooky idea, how 'bout you provide some of your own insight and intelligence to why you feel some of these ideas are kooky instead of just making fun. You have no ideas and no solutions. Ya' know what they say?

BTW only a kook thinks these guys haven't written anything before the net.

[BucEyedPea]

I agree with all of this (except the weird singling out of Karl Rove at the end), but what I don't understand is why so many Paul supporters (not talking about you or BEP here) are just coming to this realization now, of all times, when were are smack dab in the middle of a war?
Because the counterpart to the welfare state is the warfare state when power is centralized. War is the health of the state.

[Adept Havelock]

Going back to the budget of Carter is a pipe dream? We were there once, including for much of the rest.



IMO, yes. It's about as likely as "True Communism" ever was (as is the rest of his fantasy, much as I'd like to see some of it come true). Both the libertarian vision presented above and Lenin's vision involve dreaming on a level approaching Chasing the Dragon to believe any of it would actually come to pass.

Hey, maybe Lew can pen a new set of lyrics for that other naive dream by the other Lennon, "Imagine". :shrug:

Imagine no taxation, it's easy if you try....

[BucEyedPea]

That's a Straw Man.
I never said no taxation. That's not my argument. I'm against too much govt so that taxation isn't too high,doesn't need to constantly seek new revenue sources if it keeps growing out of proportion to the growth of society so that the center no longer holds, liberty is lost and the Constitution degraded into something it was never intended to me.

Imagine no liberty...it's easy if you try...

[Adept Havelock]

That's a Straw Man.
I never said no taxation. That's not my argument. I'm against too much govt so that taxation isn't too high,doesn't need to constantly seek new revenue sources if it keeps growing out of proportion to the growth of society so that the center no longer holds, liberty is lost and the Constitution degraded into something it was never intended to me.

Imagine no liberty...it's easy if you try...


Hey, I didn't say you did. Speaking of strawmen...

I'm just saying IMO Rockwell's vision is about as likely as Lenin's or Lennon's. Nothing more, nothing less. :shrug:

[Cochise]

I eagerly await the piece about Donald Duck's first 30 days.

[BucEyedPea]

AH, I'm saying it was like that at one time.
I'm saying a budget going back to Carter did exist at one time. ( as per response to earlier post) So it's a stretch to compare to communism...by orders of magnitude. It happened...here.

Straw man was to your taxation point.

[Adept Havelock]

I'm saying it was like that at one time.
I'm saying a budget going back to Carter did exist at one time. ( as per response to earlier post) So it's a stretch to compare to communism...by orders of magnitude. It happened...here.

And I'm saying regardless of the past, it's IMO an opium dream that we'll ever get close to what Rockwell stated.

As for it "being a stretch" to compare to Lenin's or Lennon's vision, well, that's JYO, just like mine is JMO. ;)

And as I pointed out, your strawman was stating I had attributed "no taxation" to you.

Hey, it's JMO. No need to act like I pissed in your personal bowl o' Cheerios...IMO.

I eagerly await the piece about Donald Duck's first 30 days.

ROFL

I'd be even more curious to see good ole' Droopy Dog's first 30 days.

Or Linus Van Pelt's "A Blanket in Every Hand, A Thumb in Every Mouth" platform for his first 30.

[patteeu]

Because the counterpart to the welfare state is the warfare state when power is centralized. War is the health of the state.

I have no interest in protecting anti-civilization jihadists from the war fighting power of the state. Any fear that that power could somehow be turned against people who are willing to live together in peace and harmony under a minimalist state is secondary AFAIC. We have a representative Congress to protect us from that remote concern.

[BucEyedPea]

[quote]The truth of the matter is that we live in a socialist nation. We all know that socialism doesn't work. But rather than fight to restore the republic, the republicans have opted to get the most out of the socialist system that they can, while exploiting grand ideals, or worse, people's fear in power grabs. As far as I'm concerned, Karl Rove is the American Rasputin, though in his own unique mold.

We have 6 of the ten planks of the Manifesto with more coming. Funny I put a long list of questions up, right out of this source...even Republicans and Moderates didn't recognize what they were agreeing with and matched at least 6 planks.

Funny, Rasputin is exactly what has come to mind for me about Rove. I've always wanted to do a ps or illustration of the whole lot and visualized Rove in Rasputin's robe. Then Cheney as Napoleon, Bush as a Court Jester, surrounded by other would be Napoleons. Behind them a map of the world with little flags marking areas under our control. Make it a double page spread feature article inside the Weekly Slandered....which would have an illustration of factory smokestacks. The smoke would be filled with type say "lies, lies, lies.!"

[BucEyedPea]

I have no interest in protecting anti-civilization jihadists from the war fighting power of the state. Any fear that that power could somehow be turned against people who are willing to live together in peace and harmony under a minimalist state is secondary AFAIC. We have a representative Congress to protect us from that remote concern.
No, that's part of the gameplan....how to mobilize the people in a society where the Chief Executive can't just decide. So propaganda is needed and threats need to be created. It's a red herring to provide noble cover for empire and world conquest. You just don't believe it.

It's a result of centralized power not the other way around....although war increases centralized power too.

[Taco John]

IMO, yes. It's about as likely as "True Communism" ever was (as is the rest of his fantasy, much as I'd like to see some of it come true). Both the libertarian vision presented above and Lenin's vision involve dreaming on a level approaching Chasing the Dragon to believe any of it would actually come to pass.

Hey, maybe Lew can pen a new set of lyrics for that other naive dream by the other Lennon, "Imagine". :shrug:

Imagine no taxation, it's easy if you try....




Hear me now and believe me later... Americans will overthrow the slavery of Income Tax in our life time.

[Adept Havelock]

Hear me now and believe me later... Americans will overthrow the slavery of Income Tax in our life time.

.
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[banyon]

[quote]The truth of the matter is that we live in a socialist nation. We all know that socialism doesn't work. But rather than fight to restore the republic, the republicans have opted to get the most out of the socialist system that they can, while exploiting grand ideals, or worse, people's fear in power grabs. As far as I'm concerned, Karl Rove is the American Rasputin, though in his own unique mold.

We have 6 of the ten planks of the Manifesto with more coming. Funny I put a long list of questions up, right out of this source...even Republicans and Moderates didn't recognize what they were agreeing with and matched at least 6 planks.
!"

1. Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes.

2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.

3. Abolition of all rights of inheritance.

4. Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels.

5. Centralization of credit in the banks of the state, by means of a national bank with state capital and an exclusive monopoly.

6. Centralization of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the state.

7. Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the state; the bringing into cultivation of waste lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.

8. Equal obligation of all to work. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture.

9. Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of all the distinction between town and country by a more equable distribution of the populace over the country.

10. Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children's factory labor in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production, etc.

Which 6?

[H5N1]

1. Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes.

2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.

3. Abolition of all rights of inheritance.

4. Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels.

5. Centralization of credit in the banks of the state, by means of a national bank with state capital and an exclusive monopoly.

6. Centralization of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the state.

7. Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the state; the bringing into cultivation of waste lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.

8. Equal obligation of all to work. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture.

9. Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of all the distinction between town and country by a more equable distribution of the populace over the country.

10. Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children's factory labor in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production, etc.

Which 6?

I'm no expert, but a few of those look dangerously like parts of our government, although modified a bit. 2, 3, 5, 9, and 10 all fit to a certain extent.

[KC Jones]

I'm no expert, but a few of those look dangerously like parts of our government, although modified a bit. 2, 3, 5, 9, and 10 all fit to a certain extent.

2 - yes
3 - no
5 - not quite, at worst the federal reserve system is quasi governmental/quasi private
9 - not seeing it.
10 - yes

[banyon]

I'm no expert, but a few of those look dangerously like parts of our government, although modified a bit. 2, 3, 5, 9, and 10 all fit to a certain extent.

2 and 10 are really the only ones that distinctly apply.

3 only affects people that have estates > $2 million at best this affects less than 2% of our population.

5 --there's the Fed, but they don't have a monopoly in any sense over lending $, just check your junk mail.

9. Big Agri has grown, but more through pure capitalism and the conglomeration of huge agribusness corps. I'm pretty sure we still have rural and urban areas, so that doesn't really apply either.

[banyon]

2 - yes
3 - no
5 - not quite, at worst the federal reserve system is quasi governmental/quasi private
9 - not seeing it.
10 - yes

Hey our lists match! :)

You beat me to the post though. :cuss:

[CRONUS]

Day 7 under Rockwell's plan the entire world is plunged into the worst economic depression the world has ever seen.

Day 8 under Rockwell's plan the chaos results in worldwide Nuclear war.

Day 9 is so bad it shall not be contemplated.

[banyon]

DAY TWENTY-FIVE: Bankruptcy laws are repealed; debtors who refuse to pay their debts are treated as virtual thieves.

LOL, this is the view of some particularly bloodthirsty collection agents/attorneys I have spoken to. Sometimes it's not a refusal, sometimes it's an inability to pay. You get cancer and try to pay your inflated variable rate mortgage Lew Rockwell.

[SBK]

LOL, this is the view of some particularly bloodthirsty collection agents/attorneys I have spoken to. Sometimes it's not a refusal, sometimes it's an inability to pay. You get cancer and try to pay your inflated variable rate mortgage Lew Rockwell.

I would say that the majority of folks declaring BK are just piss poor with their money and just don't want to repay what they've borrowed.

However, America is a country of second chances, and if you give businesses a second chance I think you should give financial retards a second chance too.

[CRONUS]

The only thing I know, is if I was Ron Paul I would do all I could to distance myself from Lew Rockwell and his writings. Rockwell is a loon that would destroy this country and the world economy in the process.

[Taco John]

What do you mean #3 "no"


The government takes it's cut first, and then lets you take what it doesn't.

[the Talking Can]

let me guess, George Carlin wrote this?

[Simplex3]

They are presently exerting power to stop me from utilizing my brains and brawn to extract riches from the weaker and less entreprenuerial, and end their lives if it furthers my aims.
Your plan has a little problem with passing Constitutional muster. That whole "life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness" thing.

[Bowser]

That is one large pipe dream. Not that a good political enema wouldn't do the country worlds of good, but there is no way even a quarter of those goals EVER come to pass, even if a Libertarian gets elected. [/obvious]

[banyon]

What do you mean #3 "no"


The government takes it's cut first, and then lets you take what it doesn't.

What do you mean not "no"?

The government takes its cut from less than 5% of people in the upper brackets. Good to see you're weeping for their minor inconvenience. The vast majority of people are free to pass down whatever they want.

[CRONUS]

DAY ONE: The federal income tax is abolished and April 15th is declared a national holiday. The 40% reduction in federal revenues is matched by a 40% cut in spending. The budget is still almost twice as big as Jimmy Carter's.

DAY TWO: All other federal taxes are abolished, including the corporate income tax, the capital gains tax, the gasoline tax, "sin" taxes, excise taxes, etc. Businesses boom, and the few legitimate federal functions are funded with an inexpensive head tax. People who choose not to vote need not pay it. (Note: this was a mainstream view in the 19th century.)

Read those two, really read them and ask yourselves if you think the world economy would survive? Tell me how.

[Hydrae]

Read those two, really read them and ask yourselves if you think the world economy would survive? Tell me how.


Help me out here, I am an economic idiot. Are you saying that we are propping up the world economy through our taxes?

[Taco John]

What do you mean not "no"?

The government takes its cut from less than 5% of people in the upper brackets. Good to see you're weeping for their minor inconvenience. The vast majority of people are free to pass down whatever they want.



Weeping a minor inconvenience? What does inconvenience have to do with property theft?

[CRONUS]

Help me out here, I am an economic idiot. Are you saying that we are propping up the world economy through our taxes?I am saying our economy would collapse if those two were to happen and we would take the world economy with us.

[Taco John]

Help me out here, I am an economic idiot. Are you saying that we are propping up the world economy through our taxes?



We're propping up the world economy through the printing press. The political question is whether or not we can keep the bubble afloat by continuing to pump more (http://news.google.com/news?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4GGIH_enUS206US206&q=fed+pumps&um=1&sa=N&tab=wn) into it.

Our monetary system is intrinsically tied to this war. The reasons that we need to go to war and the reasons why it's actually in America's WORST interest to discover alternative energy and decrease the demand for oil all revolve around our monetary system.

In 1971, in response to protect a delpeting gold reserve, Nixon acted to detach the gold backing from the dollar. They then became "government-backed" dollars, which is basically "faith-based" currency, otherwise known as the "Fiat System (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_currency)."

Not long after that, though, the US and the Organization of Petroleum Exporting Countries (OPEC) struck a deal, and OPEC would only accept US dollars for the oil. This created a worldwide demand for US Dollars, and thus our economy has chugged along, with the dollar being backed by the oil of the OPEC nations. Can you see why the founders were adamant against this practice and mandated that we stick strictly to gold?

Here's the rub: the higher oil prices go, the more demand is created for the US dollar. Other nations require more US dollars in order to cover the rising costs. The higher the price of oil, the more valuable our dollar is. Thus, anything we do to decrease the price of oil (for instance, building our own refineries to compete on a cost basis against oil from the Middle East, is actually in our worst interest. The more we can do to increase the price of oil, the better off we are.

We're not propping up the World Economy through our taxes, we're propping it up through the World's need to consume oil, and the printing of money for them to buy it with.

[Hydrae]

We're propping up the world economy through the printing press. The political question is whether or not we can keep the bubble afloat by continuing to pump more (http://news.google.com/news?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4GGIH_enUS206US206&q=fed+pumps&um=1&sa=N&tab=wn) into it.

Our monetary system is intrinsically tied to this war. The reasons that we need to go to war and the reasons why it's actually in America's WORST interest to discover alternative energy and decrease the demand for oil all revolve around our monetary system.

In 1971, in response to protect a delpeting gold reserve, Nixon acted to detach the gold backing from the dollar. They then became "government-backed" dollars, which is basically "faith-based" currency, otherwise known as the "Fiat System (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_currency)."

Not long after that, though, the US and the Organization of Petroleum Exporting Countries (OPEC) struck a deal, and OPEC would only accept US dollars for the oil. This created a worldwide demand for US Dollars, and thus our economy has chugged along, with the dollar being backed by the oil of the OPEC nations. Can you see why the founders were adamant against this practice and mandated that we stick strictly to gold?

Here's the rub: the higher oil prices go, the more demand is created for the US dollar. Other nations require more US dollars in order to cover the rising costs. The higher the price of oil, the more valuable our dollar is. Thus, anything we do to decrease the price of oil (for instance, building our own refineries to compete on a cost basis against oil from the Middle East, is actually in our worst interest. The more we can do to increase the price of oil, the better off we are.

We're not propping up the World Economy through our taxes, we're propping it up through the World's need to consume oil, and the printing of money for them to buy it with.


Ummm, ewwww. That is going to take a little bit to sink in and digest.

Wait, first thought with this and you are the person to whom this should be directed. How does this fit with Paul's desire to end the fiat money system and going back to a gold standard? I absolutely agree with this on the surface but it sounds like there is a lot of background stuff that would need to be in place before we can shut down the Federal Reserve.

Thanks for the interesting response! Expect more economic questions in the future, I am finding myself curious about a few things.

[CRONUS]

Ummm, ewwww. That is going to take a little bit to sink in and digest.

Wait, first thought with this and you are the person to whom this should be directed. How does this fit with Paul's desire to end the fiat money system and going back to a gold standard? I absolutely agree with this on the surface but it sounds like there is a lot of background stuff that would need to be in place before we can shut down the Federal Reserve.

Thanks for the interesting response! Expect more economic questions in the future, I am finding myself curious about a few things.

This is not nor has it been practical since the 80s and the advent of electronic banking worldwide. Their simply is too much gold to move between countries these days to make it possible. Gold would also immediately move into the 10s of thousands of dollars an ounce to cover the amount of money in the world either that or a deflation of all the worlds currencies that would make the great depression seem like a picnic.

[banyon]

Weeping a minor inconvenience? What does inconvenience have to do with property theft?

Theft? Look up the "naturalistic fallqcy". If you have no inheritance tax for the wealthy as you suggest, then it will almost certainly result in a society that has even less social mobility over time.

[ClevelandBronco]

I still think the brightest and/or the most inventive among us will become wealthy under almost any set of rules.

Unfortunately, under our current set of rules too many attorneys become wealthy, even though they create or produce nothing except for more rules. Maybe that's their genius. They've figured out a way to generate income without moving anything forward.

We'll always figure out a way to pass our wealth on, despite the inheritance tax. We'll just hire attorneys.

No wonder they're in favor of our current system.

[Taco John]

Ummm, ewwww. That is going to take a little bit to sink in and digest.

Wait, first thought with this and you are the person to whom this should be directed. How does this fit with Paul's desire to end the fiat money system and going back to a gold standard? I absolutely agree with this on the surface but it sounds like there is a lot of background stuff that would need to be in place before we can shut down the Federal Reserve.

Thanks for the interesting response! Expect more economic questions in the future, I am finding myself curious about a few things.



Paul very much wants to move to a gold standard, knowing that a fiat system is doomed to collapse as a cyclical matter of course. What you have to understand about a fiat system is that it is a socialist system that requires central planning (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_the_Soviet_Union). A gold system requires little to no central planning. The market determines how much gold is worth, and thus the value of the currency which it is backing.

Ron Paul wants to move America back to a standard where our dollars are being backed by hard currency. Paul wants to do this, not because he thinks it would be a fun thing to do, but because like all students of Austrian free-market economics, he knows that Fiat money systems inevitably collapse. This happened in the United States once before (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continental_dollar) when several Colonies released Continental dollar with no solid backing. They flooded the market with Continental dollars, and then the British counterfeitters went into action flooding the market, hastening the depreciation of their value. Before too long the currency was so wracked with inflation that it lost nearly all its value. In 1779, $100 in gold translated to $2600 in Continental paper currency. Two years later, the same amount could buy $16,800 worth. This kind of collapse is what Ron Paul would like to protect the American dollar from by re-establishing the Gold standard.

You're going to find people (like Logical in this thread) who will insist that it's not practical to switch to a gold standard. And in a sense he's right. When you produce nothing as a nation to attract gold *to* your nation, then a gold standard is impractical. This is like someone with no revenue producing job, but a kick-ass set of credit cards saying "using cash is impractical, when I can just use these to pay for whatever I want. If I need more money, I just get another credit card, and pay the others off with it." (This isn't a perfect analogy, but it's not as far off as I wish it were either.) There's a good argument that we would still have a thriving manufacturing industry if we were on the gold standard, as it would very much be in our nation's best interest to export goods.

There isn't a shortage of people who will tell you that getting off the socialist fiat standard and switching to a free market gold standard is the recipe for a great depression. They're wrong, and worse, they're supporting a socialist system which is inevitably headed off a cliff towards the depression they are warning about. It's already been proven that socialism doesn't work, so why would we want their monetary system?

But don't take my word for any of this... Read what Alan Greenspan has to say about the Gold Standard (http://www.lewrockwell.com/north/north204.html).

[Taco John]

To continue on this theme, here is a great article about Progressives and their blind love of the Federal Reserve system (http://www.lewrockwell.com/woods/woods66.html) and why they should reconsider.

[Taco John]

The government takes its cut from less than 5% of people in the upper brackets.



Where did you get this idea?

[a1na2]

This is all a pipe dream. I just wonder what was in the pipe he was smoking at the time he came up with this stuff?

[Dave Lane]

Going back to the budget of Carter is a pipe dream?
We were there once, including for much of the rest.

I liked this quote on Olbermann the other day...

The path to the future is guarded with 10,000 guards to protect the past.

Dave

[BucEyedPea]

I liked this quote on Olbermann the other day...

The path to the future is guarded with 10,000 guards to protect the past.

Dave
No!

What worked before will work again. Yup!

[banyon]

Where did you get this idea?

Census/Tax data?

http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxtopics/images/estatetax.gif

http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxtopics/estatetax.cfm

The estate tax is the most progressive federal tax. In 2007, more than 90 percent of estate tax revenue will come from the top 10 percent of the income distribution. Taxpayers in the bottom four quintiles face an average effective tax rate of less than 0.05 percent.

Eh, I was off by a couple of percent, but the data shows its almost entirely an issue for the very wealthy, so keep up your crusade. LIBERTY!

[a1na2]

It's so nice!!!! No H.C.


Posted by banyon - Today at 05:53 PM
This person is on your Ignore List.

[Taco John]

Census/Tax data?

http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxtopics/images/estatetax.gif

http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxtopics/estatetax.cfm



Eh, I was off by a couple of percent, but the data shows its almost entirely an issue for the very wealthy, so keep up your crusade. LIBERTY!



Off by a couple of percent? It looks like 100% of the people get a portion of their property stolen. You said 5%.

[Adept Havelock]

Off by a couple of percent? It looks like 100% of the people get a portion of their property stolen. You said 5%.

If you want to speak in the realm of idealism, sure, you could call it theft.

Speaking strictly ideally, I'd likely agree.

Then the cold harsh hand of reality comes along and forces my inner pragmatist to acknowledge a fundamental truth, that the Libertarian ideal is an opium dream, as was Marx's vision, and so many other aptly named "Utopias".

“Taxes are the price we pay for a civilized society."

A taxation on the transfer of wealth from the dead to the living, primarily impacting those who can best afford it, strikes me as a relatively intelligent way to raise funds while minimizing it's harm of society as a whole. A maximum of stuff for a minimum of squawk, if you will.

Well, a minimum of squawk except for the congresscritters and their paid media mouthpieces that like to play "Newspeak" games and bemoan the unfairness of the "Death tax".

By all means, feel free to denounce "theft" all you like. It's a great thing about this country that you can.

JMO.

[Taco John]

If you want to speak in the realm of idealism, sure, you could call it theft.

Speaking strictly ideally, I'd likely agree.

Then the cold harsh hand of reality comes along and forces my inner pragmatist to acknowledge a fundamental truth, that the Libertarian ideal is an opium dream, as was Marx's vision, and so many other aptly named "Utopias".

What's pragmatic about the government stealing your property so that it can turn around and give weapons for Saudi Arabia and Israel? The idea that Libertarianism doesn't work spits in the face of our founders. Libertarianism was only the foundation of the most prosperous and free nation to ever exist.

You're right about one thing: libertarian ideals are not practical in a socialist nation. A socialist nation requires the confiscation of property in order to support itself. A libertarian nation only requires a free market and a stable currency to sustain itself. The key difference is what the people expect the government to provide for them, and what they are responsible for providing for themselves.

There's nothing more pragmatic than libertarianism. We already know that socialism doesn't work.


A taxation on the transfer of wealth from the dead to the living, primarily impacting those who can best afford it, strikes me as a relatively intelligent way to raise funds while minimizing it's harm of society as a whole. A maximum of stuff for a minimum of squawk, if you will.

Stealing from those who can afford to be stolen from is still stealing. A socialist nation will justify that stealing by saying they need that money in order to serve the people. Or in our case, serve the people over seas...

[banyon]

Off by a couple of percent? It looks like 100% of the people get a portion of their property stolen. You said 5%.

I think you are too smart to really be attempting this tact. What part of "2 million $ exclusion" don't you understand? Wiki the estate tax and get back to me when you understand the heretofore relatively uncontroversial premise that the estate tax is actually paid by very few. It should be a tip off to you that there aren't even any righties on the site who don't understand this and are trying to defend it.

[Cochise]

Census/Tax data?

http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxtopics/images/estatetax.gif

http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxtopics/estatetax.cfm

Eh, I was off by a couple of percent, but the data shows its almost entirely an issue for the very wealthy, so keep up your crusade. LIBERTY!

It is, as it's always been, true that the upper class pay a disproportionate share of the taxes paid. But to say it's not an "issue" for the less-rich is not entirely true. If you lose a substantial portion of something you inherit, it's an issue for you. Just because I lose a lot less to taxes (not that I'll inherit that much) than Paris Hilton would doesn't mean it isn't an issue or it hasn't cost me what, to me, is a sizeable amount of money.

I think there's an distinction to be made here, maybe this is pedantic. But the fact that something scales doesn't mean people at a lower rung of the scale don't "feel" it, know what I mean? Even if they are wealthy already.

[banyon]

It is, as it's always been, true that the upper class pay a disproportionate share of the taxes paid. But to say it's not an "issue" for the less-rich is not entirely true. If you lose a substantial portion of something you inherit, it's an issue for you. Just because I lose a lot less to taxes (not that I'll inherit that much) than Paris Hilton would doesn't mean it isn't an issue or it hasn't cost me what, to me, is a sizeable amount of money.

I think there's an distinction to be made here, maybe this is pedantic. But the fact that something scales doesn't mean people at a lower rung of the scale don't "feel" it, know what I mean? Even if they are wealthy already.

I think that you and Taco are misinterpreting the chart I put up. It's not as if the wealthy have an estate tax of 60% when they die and the middle class and poor pay 10%. That's how it sounds like you are interpreting this. If your estate is under $2 million, then you pay ZERO percent. Nothing. Just demographically, most people don't die with an estate worth more than that, so most people pay nothing. That's why the chart shows that most federal revenue from the estate tax comes from people in the upper 5%.

[Hydrae]

So since the only things in life that can't be avoided are death and taxes, we lump them together for a nice double whammy. :thumb: Gotta love how we treat our people, especially the successful ones in this country of ours.

[patteeu]

I agree with banyon that the estate tax doesn't directly impact most people because of the very substantial exemption. I still think it should be repealed, but that's a different story.

[banyon]

I agree with banyon that the estate tax doesn't directly impact most people because of the very substantial exemption. I still think it should be repealed, but that's a different story.

It is. Just make sure that you die in 2010. :D

[patteeu]

It is. Just make sure that you die in 2010. :D

I'll mark my calendar! :)

[Adept Havelock]

Ron Paul and Libertarian Boilerplate snipped

ROFL

Well, I've certainly done my share of tilting at windmills over the years. Good luck!

Just remember your line is "Sancho! My Armor!".

BTW- IMO, there's nothing more pragmatic than realizing there's a damn good reason that "Utopias" were given that name, be they Libertarian, Communist, Fascist, or whatever. ;)

[ClevelandBronco]

I think that you and Taco are misinterpreting the chart I put up. It's not as if the wealthy have an estate tax of 60% when they die and the middle class and poor pay 10%. That's how it sounds like you are interpreting this. If your estate is under $2 million, then you pay ZERO percent. Nothing. Just demographically, most people don't die with an estate worth more than that, so most people pay nothing. That's why the chart shows that most federal revenue from the estate tax comes from people in the upper 5%.

And there are ways to transfer wealth that will greatly exceed that $2 million threshold.

[BucEyedPea]

Rockwell's Thirty Day plan is not at all a utopia...in fact it's the furthest thing from it. It's big govt and govt intervention in the markets that's aiming for utopia while it protects folks from life and reality.

[Adept Havelock]

Rockwell's Thirty Day plan is not at all a utopia...in fact it's the furthest thing from it. It's big govt and govt intervention in the markets that's aiming for utopia while it protects folks from life and reality.


Sure it is. It's just a Libertarian vision of Utopia.

Marx and company had their utopian dreams too.

As do the big government (cradle-to-grave welfare Leftists or Social "Engineering" Conservatives) advocates.

Doesn't change the fact that regardless of the brand Utopia=No Place. JMO.

[Hydrae]

Sure it is. It's just a Libertarian vision of Utopia.

Marx and company had their utopian dreams too.

As do the big government (cradle-to-grave welfare Leftists or Social "Engineering" Conservatives) advocates.

Doesn't change the fact that regardless of the brand Utopia=No Place. JMO.


It is still good to have goals to work towards. On a personal level I am always striving for perfection while realizing I will never attain it in this lifetime. That doesn't keep me from working at it though.

[BucEyedPea]

No it's not a utopia at all Havelock. Utopia is an imaginary land with perfect social and political systems. In utopia nothing ever goes wrong and there is freedom from want. This is simply another paradigm—not a utopia. The people have to work out more of their own problems in such a paradigm. There are still problems. Libertarianism doesn't promise a problem free world free from want at all or free from all consequences not even freedom from racism and discrimination.

Also, America once upon a time, had many of the things in Lew's list before the era of big govt. That's hardly imaginary at all. The first 30 days brings us back to Carter's budget which was the last time it was balanced and reflects the size of govt then. That's pretty far from utopia.

Not even our Founder's vision was utopian and we're a long ways from that even if we roll back govt by twenty five years. Their vision was liberty but that man had a dark side so some govt was necessary. So they limited govt to just certain things for a balanced center.That was revolutionary then. To call it utopian is simply running away from that revolution.

[Adept Havelock]

No it's not a utopia at all Havelock. Utopia is an imaginary land with perfect social and political systems. In utopia nothing ever goes wrong and there is freedom from want. This is simply another paradigm—not a utopia. The people have to work out more of their own problems in such a paradigm. There are still problems. Libertarianism doesn't promise a problem free world free from want at all or free from all consequences not even freedom from racism and discrimination.

IMO, it qualifies as a Utopia as it's an ideal vision free of the things that Libertarians find "icky". Especially regarding government and it's place in society. :shrug:


Also, America once upon a time, had many of the things in Lew's list before the era of big govt. That's hardly imaginary at all. The first 30 days brings us back to Carter's budget which was the last time it was balanced and reflects the size of govt then. That's pretty far from utopia.

Not even our Founder's vision was utopian and we're a long ways from that even if we roll back govt by twenty five years. Their vision was liberty but that man had a dark side so some govt was necessary. So they limited govt to just certain things for a balanced center.That was revolutionary then. To call it utopian is simply running away from that revolution.

I don't believe I ever stated that the founder's vision was Utopian. All I'm saying was the screed written by Mr. Rockwell in the OP was Utopian.

Utopias, like Beauty, are found in the eye of the beholder.

It is still good to have goals to work towards. On a personal level I am always striving for perfection while realizing I will never attain it in this lifetime. That doesn't keep me from working at it though.

I certainly agree the world needs Idealists, and those that work towards those ideals.
Someone has to balance out the hardcore cynics like me.

[Taco John]

I don't know about utopia. I just want what the Framers fought for: less government, more liberty.

[Hydrae]

I don't know about utopia. I just want what the Framers fought for: less government, more liberty.


Representation = taxation

Our current system does not reflect this in any manner.

[BucEyedPea]

Adept, I you didn't state the Founder's vision as utopian but what Lew listed is pretty much what they did invision. And America grew from a backward wilderness to an economic juggernaught under that paradigm.

[patteeu]

Hi all

...

Now there's a 30 day program I think we can all get behind!