Wiccan war widow denied invitation ... thoughts?

[Nightwish]

http://www.lvrj.com/news/9441071.html

Aug. 29, 2007
Copyright © Las Vegas Review-Journal

Wiccan practitioner's widow not invited to Bush meeting

President talked to family members of other war dead

By SEAN WHALEY
REVIEW-JOURNAL CAPITAL BUREAU

CARSON CITY -- When President Bush took time Tuesday to meet family members of some of the fallen soldiers from Northern Nevada, a woman whose husband made the ultimate sacrifice was notably absent.

Robert Stewart of Fernley, who lost her husband, Sgt. Patrick Stewart, when the helicopter he was in was shot down in Afghanistan in September 2005, said she was not invited to the meeting that followed Bush's speech to the American Legion's national convention in Reno.

Other members of the Stewart family were invited to the brief, private meeting, including her husband's parents and brother, as were family members of others who have been killed in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Stewart said her in-laws were contacted by the White House last week in advance of the visit by Bush to Reno. But she received no call or e-mail extending an invitation.

Stewart's parents, Steve and Sandy Stewart of Reno, and his brother, Jason Stewart of Silver Springs, offered no comment on the meeting.
Roberta Stewart said she believes she knows why no invitation was extended to her by the White House.

Roberta Stewart, like her late husband, is a practitioner of the Wiccan faith, and she fought with the Department of Veterans Affairs for more than a year to win the right to display the pentacle, the emblem of their faith, on his memorial marker in the Northern Nevada Veterans Memorial Cemetery in Fernley.

Patrick Stewart had the pentacle on his dog tags.

Roberta Stewart and several other Wiccans, backed by a major Wiccan religious group and Americans United for Separation of Church and State, reached a settlement with the federal agency in April allowing the symbol to be used in veterans cemeteries.

"I'm upset that I wasn't invited," she said of the Bush meeting. "I think it is because of my faith. I feel like I've been discriminated against again."

Stewart said she would have gone if invited.

"I would have loved to have spoken to President Bush and ask him why he dishonored my husband," she said. "That's probably why I wasn't invited."

White House spokesman Trey Bohn said only that Bush met privately with family members of military personnel who have lost their lives in Iraq and Afghanistan and that, "we do not discuss private meetings."

Stewart said that while researching a lawsuit to allow the use of the pentacle, Wiccan attorneys came across information indicating Bush was opposed to recognition of the faith. The New York Times reported when the settlement was reached in April that Bush, in an interview with Good Morning America in 1999, said: "I don't think witchcraft is a religion."

The government finally agreed to the settlement "in the interest of the families concerned and to spare taxpayers the expense of further litigation," VA spokesman Matt Burns said in an e-mail announcing the agreement in April.

Additionally, Burns said, the agency settled after it became clear that the Wiccan pentacle would be deemed acceptable under new rules the VA has proposed for recognizing "emblems of belief."

The Wiccan faith is based on nature and emphasizes respect for the earth and its processes. One of its primary tenants is "do no harm."

The space allotted for Patrick Stewart's plaque at the Fernley cemetery remained blank until November, when the state of Nevada sidestepped the federal government and allowed the use of the symbol at the cemetery.

The Nevada Army National Guardsman and four other soldiers died after their Chinook helicopter was shot down in Afghanistan. Among the dead was Stewart's friend, John Flynn, a chief warrant officer with the guard.

Flynn's widow, Christie Flynn, was invited to the Bush meeting, Roberta Stewart said. "Other local widows were there. I was excluded."

If Bush thought he was honoring Patrick Stewart by meeting with selected family members, he was wrong, Roberta Stewart said.

"I am very, very disappointed," she said.

______________________________

Thoughts? Was the President wrong to deny her an invitation to the meeting, when the other war widows from the area were invited? Was her faith a part of the reason she wasn't invited? Was the fact that she had battled the government for the right to display a Wiccan symobl on her husband's grave the reason? Was it simple oversight on the President's part?

[BIG_DADDY]

Why, are you a witch?

[Pitt Gorilla]

Why, are you a witch?Relevance?

[BIG_DADDY]

Relevance?

Just a question, just like his.

[CHIEF4EVER]

E'es a witch! Burn im!

How do you know e'es a witch?

E turned me into a newt!

A newt?

Well......I got better......

[Sully]

It says, "One Nation, Under GOD," dickbag....
What part of that don't you understand?

[Nightwish]

Why, are you a witch?
Yes, but that isn't why I posted it. Someone on a Wiccan website I also frequent alerted me to it. I don't know what all the circumstances are. I know that when people are of a faith/ethnicity/orientation that lies outside the mainstream, they tend to get into this rut of thinking that whenever they are treated unfairly, it is because of that faith/ethnicity/orientation, etc. Sometimes they're right, often they're not. I don't know what the case is with this one. She could have been denied because of religious discrimination (without a doubt, her faith was known to the VA, at least), or because of political discrimination (she successfully sued the government, and they never take kindly to that), or because of simple oversight.

[BIG_DADDY]

Yes, but that isn't why I posted it. Someone on a Wiccan website I also frequent alerted me to it. I don't know what all the circumstances are. I know that when people are of a faith/ethnicity/orientation that lies outside the mainstream, they tend to get into this rut of thinking that whenever they are treated unfairly, it is because of that faith/ethnicity/orientation, etc. Sometimes they're right, often they're not. I don't know what the case is with this one. She could have been denied because of religious discrimination (without a doubt, her faith was known to the VA, at least), or because of political discrimination (she successfully sued the government, and they never take kindly to that), or because of simple oversight.

Could be any. You Wiccan?

[Deberg_1990]

Thats pretty messed up that POTUS wouldnt meet with the family of a fallen war veteran. Religious preference should play no part in the decision.

[Nightwish]

Could be any. You Wiccan?
Used to be. While I still have strong leanings that way, nowadays I consider myself more of an Agnostic Neopagan. There's a lot of historical fiction that has become popular mythistory in Wicca (ancient paleolithic goddess religion, 9 million witches killed during the "Burning Times," etc.), and I wanted to distance myself from all that.

[BIG_DADDY]

Used to be. While I still have strong leanings that way, nowadays I consider myself more of an Agnostic Neopagan. There's a lot of historical fiction that has become popular mythistory in Wicca (ancient paleolithic goddess religion, 9 million witches killed during the "Burning Times," etc.), and I wanted to distance myself from all that.

You do any reading on the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn?

[Baby Lee]

Why, are you a witch?
He turned me into a newt.

[noa]

He turned me into a newt.

Burn him

[Nightwish]

You do any reading on the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn?
No, I've never been a big fan of Crowley et al., or Ceremonial Magic, although a lot of Wiccan and modern neopagan practices are derived from it.

[Nightwish]

Burn him
No! I weigh more than a duck! I swear it!

[trndobrd]

http://www.lvrj.com/news/9441071.html


"I'm upset that I wasn't invited," she said of the Bush meeting. "I think it is because of my faith. I feel like I've been discriminated against again."

Stewart said she would have gone if invited.

"I would have loved to have spoken to President Bush and ask him why he dishonored my husband," she said. "That's probably why I wasn't invited."




She's confusing me. Does she think she wasn't invited because of her faith or because she would have gone with the intent to be disruptive?

[go bowe]

She's confusing me. Does she think she wasn't invited because of her faith or because she would have gone with the intent to be disruptive?she may think she was not invited because of her religion...

but i'm sure she wasn't invited in part because of the suit she'd won...

and i'm equally sure she wasn't invited because she is outspoken about her hostility towards the president and because she is clearly not a republican...

iirc, the bush people always screen their audiences and i'm sure they knew that she was indeed going to be a disruption in one form or another...

[Laz]

It says, "One Nation, Under GOD," dickbag....
What part of that don't you understand?
so you're ok with a government dealing with people based on a religious belief???


what happens if in the future President doesn't like your religion?

[Sully]

so you're ok with a government dealing with people based on a religious belief???


what happens if in the future President doesn't like your religion?
I was being sarcastic.
The topic of separation of Church and State is one of my most passionate issues.

[Laz]

I was being sarcastic.
The topic of separation of Church and State is one of my most passionate issues.
my bad ..... dam sarcas-o-meter is on the fritz.

[listopencil]

That's not surprising. Bush allows his religious beliefs to warp his job as POTUS. Nothing new here.

[HonestChieffan]

Presidents shouldnt have to deal with or interact with kooks and nutcases.

[Hydrae]

Presidents shouldnt have to deal with or interact with kooks and nutcases.


Can you define "kooks and nutcases?" And while you are at it, what about those are just a little crazy? Where do you draw the line?

[Ugly Duck]

Can you define "kooks and nutcases?" And while you are at it, what about those are just a little crazy? Where do you draw the line?

Wiccan beliefs probably seem bizarre the followers of the dominant religion in our country - the Cult of the Talking Snake. They all seem bizarre to us atheists.

[Taco John]

That's not surprising. Bush allows his religious beliefs to warp his job as POTUS. Nothing new here.



THat wouldn't be so bad if he also didn't allow his belief in the Easter Bunny, the Tooth Fairy, and Santa Claus to interfere with his job.

[HonestChieffan]

Nutcases, lost causes, and never gonna bes would include wiccans who want to do anything and other assorted netherdwellers like goths...some other examples of those who get press for no rerason would be Pat Buchanan and others like him, the assorted fringe players, the old fool from Texas who ran for President on third party, Ralph Nader, Ron Paul will devolve into that category, the screamer the demos had last time that disappeared..

Im sure there are others

[Nightwish]

Nutcases, lost causes, and never gonna bes would include wiccans who want to do anythingCould you explain what you mean by "want to do anything?"

There are a lot of Wiccans who will fit into the kook or nutcase category, just as there are a lot of Christians, Jews, Atheists and anything else you can name. There are a couple ways that "want to do anything" can be taken. It could be taken to mean that if they want to be free to do anything they please, without restraint, without limitation, then they are nutcases. That might be true in some cases, in most cases, those kind are kids or newbies who didn't understand the meaning of the Wiccan Rede, and mistakenly took it to mean "do whatever you want, as long as you aren't hurting anything." Mostly, that kind of Wiccan comes few and far between, and they tend to get weeded out or set straight pretty quickly by the older Wiccans. Then, there's another way your comment could be taken - Wiccans are automatically nutcases, no matter what they want to do, no matter how realistic or down to earth their goals may be. I'm assuming you meant the former, but if you meant the latter, I would strongly suggest learning something about it first.

By the way, I wouldn't put Nader in that "press for no reason" category. He very successfully did exactly what the people behind him intended him to do - take decisive votes away from a major candidate.

[Dave Lane]

Thats pretty messed up that POTUS wouldnt meet with the family of a fallen war veteran. Religious preference should play no part in the decision.


I agree if you are going to honor soldiers honor them all...

Dave

[HonestChieffan]

These people actually want to be taken seriously. Thats a hoot.

[Nightwish]

These people actually want to be taken seriously. Thats a hoot.
Define "these people."

[HonestChieffan]

wiccans, goths, fringe groups, people with no idea of what it takes to be taken seriously. No different than the Fred Phelps types on any issue...seems every issue has some wackjob way to far end of the spectrum...no one listens or cares.

[Bowser]

wiccans, goths, fringe groups, people with no idea of what it takes to be taken seriously. No different than the Fred Phelps types on any issue...seems every issue has some wackjob way to far end of the spectrum...no one listens or cares.

CONFORM OR DIE!!

[Nightwish]

wiccans, goths, fringe groups, people with no idea of what it takes to be taken seriously. No different than the Fred Phelps types on any issue...seems every issue has some wackjob way to far end of the spectrum...no one listens or cares.
By broadbrushing those entire groups, I'd say you just placed yourself pretty squarely in the nutball camp yourself. If you're really that narrow-minded, then you're about the last person who should be talking about "fringe groups" or "people with no idea of what it takes to be taken seriously." Do you honestly think that people who believe literally in talking snakes, resurrecting the dead, forbidden apples, and so on, have any room to be talking about the beliefs of others?

[HonestChieffan]

talking snakes?

whew...


The good news is that while nutjobs have no influence they do seem to find a way to find other nutjobs and the rest of the world doesnt have to deal with them. Used to be harikrishnas in airports or the bunch that oriental kook was the spiritual leader of. Is that bunch still in Iowa that bought ground in Fairfield?

[BucEyedPea]

By broadbrushing those entire groups, I'd say you just placed yourself pretty squarely in the nutball camp yourself. If you're really that narrow-minded, then you're about the last person who should be talking about "fringe groups" or "people with no idea of what it takes to be taken seriously." Do you honestly think that people who believe literally in talking snakes, resurrecting the dead, forbidden apples, and so on, have any room to be talking about the beliefs of others?
What he said.

[CRONUS]

she may think she was not invited because of her religion...

but i'm sure she wasn't invited in part because of the suit she'd won...

and i'm equally sure she wasn't invited because she is outspoken about her hostility towards the president and because she is clearly not a republican...

iirc, the bush people always screen their audiences and i'm sure they knew that she was indeed going to be a disruption in one form or another...


Sad but true IMO, the President's aides try to screen him from negative publicitiy and this lady would have meant negative publicity, not for her Wiccan religion but due to her winning lawsuit and outspoken negative POV about the administration.

[Nightwish]

The good news is that while nutjobs have no influence they do seem to find a way to find other nutjobs and the rest of the world doesnt have to deal with them. Used to be harikrishnas in airports or the bunch that oriental kook was the spiritual leader of. Is that bunch still in Iowa that bought ground in Fairfield?
You're right, nutjobs have no influence. George W. Bush, Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, Sun Myung Moon ... no influence at all.

[oldandslow]

talking snakes?

whew...


The good news is that while nutjobs have no influence they do seem to find a way to find other nutjobs and the rest of the world doesnt have to deal with them. Used to be harikrishnas in airports or the bunch that oriental kook was the spiritual leader of. Is that bunch still in Iowa that bought ground in Fairfield?

It's amazing to me that some folks are so quick to believe that water was made into wine, some guy walked on water, and people rose from the dead, but cannot accept worship of other sorts.

I am a Christian, but I don't believe I have all of the answers, nor do I take everything that was written in the Bible literally.

Doesn't make me any more correct than Nightwish.

In the end, I suspect all of us are wrong or right directly dependent on how we lived our lives.

[Radar Chief]

talking snakes?

whew...


The good news is that while nutjobs have no influence they do seem to find a way to find other nutjobs and the rest of the world doesnt have to deal with them. Used to be harikrishnas in airports or the bunch that oriental kook was the spiritual leader of. Is that bunch still in Iowa that bought ground in Fairfield?

Quick question, are you Christian?
Everyone seems to assume so but I haven’t seen you post one way or the other.

[go bowe]

Quick question, are you Christian?
Everyone seems to assume so but I haven’t seen you post one way or the other.yeah...

enquiring minds, etc.

[patteeu]

Hi all

...

Wiccan's won't be excluded from these deals!

[kcchiefsfanGoLJ]

I dont have a problem with that, keep the witches and their emblems away from the public. I am tired of these kind of people wanting their rights. It says "One nation under God", not "One nation under satan".

[Mi_chief_fan]

I dont have a problem with that, keep the witches and their emblems away from the public. I am tired of these kind of people wanting their rights. It says "One nation under God", not "One nation under satan".

You do realize that Pagans are different than Satanists, right? It's impossible to be a Pagan and a Satanist, as far as I can tell.

[Jilly]

I dont have a problem with that, keep the witches and their emblems away from the public. I am tired of these kind of people wanting their rights. It says "One nation under God", not "One nation under satan".

With a statement like this, you may try and read an unbiased source on the Wiccan belief system.

[kcchiefsfanGoLJ]

With a statement like this, you may try and read an unbiased source on the Wiccan belief system.


I have been around people of the Wiccan belief, and to be quite honest it's quite amusing people can believe in this crap. I went to High School with a girl who practiced this belief (I use this term lightly), and she was nothing more than a side show. Wow a "preacher" defending a Wiccan?

[Jilly]

I have been around people of the Wiccan belief, and to be quite honest it's quite amusing people can believe in this crap. I went to High School with a girl who practiced this belief (I use this term lightly), and she was nothing more than a side show. Wow a "preacher" defending a Wiccan?

my sister is wiccan...and I'm guessing of a more serious nature than this girl in high school. She's not a satanist and maybe you should approach people in a little more gentle fashion instead of passing judgment.

[kcchiefsfanGoLJ]

my sister is wiccan...and I'm guessing of a more serious nature than this girl in high school. She's not a satanist and maybe you should approach people in a little more gentle fashion instead of passing judgment.

If your sister is a Wiccan, then you are not doing your job correct? Seeing as you are a minister of the Word of God. I dont approach people in this fashion, I was simply stating my view on this belief.

[Jilly]

If your sister is a Wiccan, then you are not doing your job correct? Seeing as you are a minister of the Word of God. I dont approach people in this fashion, I was simply stating my view on this belief.

your views are based on an inaccurate understanding of a religion. If you want to pass judgments based on accurate views, go right ahead. But you having a friend in high school who said she was Wiccan does not qualify. And who are you to tell me how I'm doing MY job? Do you come to MY church? NO. Have you been in a hospital room with me as I ministered to a dying person? NO..you haven't. Have you heard me preach, seen me worship, seen how I love my sister with everything I am and my concern for her? no.
Us having a discussion is one thing, but you attacking my position in life when you know nothing of it is entirely different and in my opinion that crosses a line. Just because you go to church and are a Christian doesn't make you know what it means to be a minister, just like reading a medical book doesn't make you know how to be a dr.

[Adept Havelock]

I dont have a problem with that, keep the witches and their emblems away from the public. I am tired of these kind of people wanting their rights. It says "One nation under God", not "One nation under satan".


Tired of people wanting the rights granted them under the Constitution of the United States?

What a great American you are. :rolleyes:

Maybe you should find yourself a nice theocracy to move to, as you dislike our system.

Perhaps you could show me where the founders of this great nation said "One Nation under God"?

Here's a hint, you won't find it in the Constitution, the only document that matters as far as the US is concerned.

The wise Founders did put a clause in there about freedom of religion. IMO, primarily to strike down the idiotic notions pushed by yammerheads like yourself. ;)

[kcchiefsfanGoLJ]

your views are based on an inaccurate understanding of a religion. If you want to pass judgments based on accurate views, go right ahead. But you having a friend in high school who said she was Wiccan does not qualify. And who are you to tell me how I'm doing MY job? Do you come to MY church? NO. Have you been in a hospital room with me as I ministered to a dying person? NO..you haven't. Have you heard me preach, seen me worship, seen how I love my sister with everything I am and my concern for her? no.
Us having a discussion is one thing, but you attacking my position in life when you know nothing of it is entirely different and in my opinion that crosses a line. Just because you go to church and are a Christian doesn't make you know what it means to be a minister, just like reading a medical book doesn't make you know how to be a dr.


Very true, but on here you seem to be a normal worldy person, I cant help but think that you are a hypocrite if you are living for the world and for God. I have read many threads that have been questionable in my eyes, from the stand point of you being a minister. Am I perfect, I most assuredly am not, have I ever claimed to be perfect no. I am not passing judgements, I read your posts on this website, I am not going to attack anyone, but since you have said a few things questionable IMO, and since we are in the DC Forum, I feel it's appropriate to discuss them. The Bible says you cant serve to masters, you are ministering in hospitals, that's great good to hear and it's a rewarding ministry. The next second you are making partial lesbian comments on some new actors pictures in the Picture Forum. I just dont understand how you say your a minister, then you make some very questionable posts, Im not condemning you, because I have numerous faults of my own. Let him who is perfect cast the first stone, and that's not me. I am stating my opinion, on the posts you have made that I have interacted with you, as well as read as a partial bystander (SP).

[kcchiefsfanGoLJ]

Tired of people wanting the rights granted them under the Constitution of the United States?

What a great American you are. :rolleyes:

Maybe you should find yourself a nice theocracy to move to, as you dislike our system.

Perhaps you could show me where the founders of this great nation said "One Nation under God"?

Here's a hint, you won't find it in the Constitution, the only document that matters as far as the US is concerned.

The wise Founders did put a clause in there about freedom of religion. IMO, primarily to strike down the idiotic notions pushed by yammerheads like yourself. ;)

Im an idiotic yammerhead, because I stick very close to my conservative Christian beliefs.

[kcchiefsfanGoLJ]

If your sister is a Wiccan, then you are not doing your job correct? Seeing as you are a minister of the Word of God. I dont approach people in this fashion, I was simply stating my view on this belief.

I am going to quote myself for one reason, to offer my apologies for seeming so brash. Me stating you arent doing your job, because your sister is a Wiccan is completely uneducated and a heat of the moment statement, that was not called for. My apologies.

[Jilly]

Very true, but on here you seem to be a normal worldy person, I cant help but think that you are a hypocrite if you are living for the world and for God. I have read many threads that have been questionable in my eyes, from the stand point of you being a minister. Am I perfect, I most assuredly am not, have I ever claimed to be perfect no. I am not passing judgements, I read your posts on this website, I am not going to attack anyone, but since you have said a few things questionable IMO, and since we are in the DC Forum, I feel it's appropriate to discuss them. The Bible says you cant serve to masters, you are ministering in hospitals, that's great good to hear and it's a rewarding ministry. The next second you are making partial lesbian comments on some new actors pictures in the Picture Forum. I just dont understand how you say your a minister, then you make some very questionable posts, Im not condemning you, because I have numerous faults of my own. Let him who is perfect cast the first stone, and that's not me. I am stating my opinion, on the posts you have made that I have interacted with you, as well as read as a partial bystander (SP).

then why cast stones?
then why Jesus?
then why grace?
then why love others?

LISTEN, your view of the christian faith is much smaller than mine...your GOD is much smaller than mine. And that probably has to do with the fact that you are 19 years old. Maybe when you find out that your sibling is a Wiccan, or that your Uncle is gay, or heaven forbid, YOU'RE gay (i'm not saying you are, but that's always a possibility), maybe then you might understand how big God's grace is and how encompassing God's love is. Maybe when you hold the hands of sinners as they pass into the next world, youll be better equipped to handle a conversation this big or when you find yourself in the midst of doubt surrounded by a God who still finds something worth keeping in you, you'll understand it. But for now, I can talk until I am blue in the face about the doctrines, dogmas, interpretations of Scriptures and beliefs of God and those blinded eyes of yours will see nothing but your own reality.

[Jilly]

I am going to quote myself for one reason, to offer my apologies for seeming so brash. Me stating you arent doing your job, because your sister is a Wiccan is completely uneducated and a heat of the moment statement, that was not called for. My apologies.

I appreciate that deeply. We all say things we shouldn't when we feel passionate about things. I'm included. So thank you.

[Adept Havelock]

Im an idiotic yammerhead, because I stick very close to my conservative Christian beliefs.

No, you're an idiotic yammerhead because you want to deny another Citizen of this country the right to the same Freedom of Religion that you enjoy because you find their choice of faith icky.

That's no different than someone who thinks someone of a different color doesn't deserve their rights.

Hey, it's a free country. If you choose to cast your lot with people like that, go right ahead. ;)

Thankfully, the Founders of this nation wrote a little something into the Constitution just to deal with foolish notions like the one you suggested. They'd seen plenty of that type of thinking and obviously wanted nothing to do with it.

Edit- I see you're just a nineteen year old kid. I'd write it off to youth, except for the fact that as an American Citizen you should know better.

Pity you seem to feel a citizen's rights are only for those you personally agree with. All I can say is if that's the way you look at things...get ready for a lifetime of disappointment, Junior.

You want to put a Manger in the public square to honor Christmas? Go right ahead. Don't squawk when the Jews want to put up a Menorah or the Wiccans a Yule display.

BTW- I'm still waiting for you to point out where the Founders said "One nation under God".

[Nightwish]

I have been around people of the Wiccan belief, and to be quite honest it's quite amusing people can believe in this crap.I have been around people of the Christian belief, and to be quite honest it's quite amusing people can believe in this crap.

I have been around people of the Catholic belief, and to be quite honest it's quite amusing people can believe in this crap.

I have been around people of the Jewish belief, and to be quite honest it's quite amusing people can believe in this crap.

I have been around people of the Muslim belief, and to be quite honest it's quite amusing people can believe in this crap.

I have been around people of the Hindu belief, and to be quite honest it's quite amusing people can believe in this crap.

I have been around people of the Native American belief, and to be quite honest it's quite amusing people can believe in this crap.

I have been around people of the Taoist belief, and to be quite honest it's quite amusing people can believe in this crap.

I have been around people of the Buddhist belief, and to be quite honest it's quite amusing people can believe in this crap.

See how that works?




I went to High School with a girl who practiced this belief (I use this term lightly), and she was nothing more than a side show.Some of them are, some of them aren't. See my comment earlier in the thread about newbies, fluffy bunnies, and attention-seekers. Your schoolmate may have been one of that type. It's hardly the only type, or the majority type of Wiccan. Most Wiccans you wouldn't know unless they came right out and told you.
I am going to quote myself for one reason, to offer my apologies for seeming so brash. Me stating you arent doing your job, because your sister is a Wiccan is completely uneducated and a heat of the moment statement, that was not called for. My apologies.That was hardly the only brash, arrogant and generally uneducated and ignorant statement you've made in this thread.

[Adept Havelock]

Some of them are, some of them aren't. See my comment earlier in the thread about newbies, fluffy bunnies, and attention-seekers. Your schoolmate may have been one of that type. It's hardly the only type, or the majority type of Wiccan. Most Wiccans you wouldn't know unless they came right out and told you.
That was hardly the only brash, arrogant and generally uneducated and ignorant statement you've made in this thread.


Fluffy Bunnies? Oy. Haven't heard that term in a while. ROFL

[Nightwish]

I dont have a problem with that, keep the witches and their emblems away from the public. I am tired of these kind of people wanting their rights. It says "One nation under God", not "One nation under satan".
"It" is the Pledge of Allegiance. "It" is not a document that grants, restricts or defines the parameters by which rights are meted out. "It" did not include the words "under God" until 1954. The three-word combination "nation, under God" first appeared in the Gettysburgh Address, written and delivered by Abraham Lincoln, a believer in God, but a professed non-Christian. "God" is not limited to the god of Abraham, nor only to the Judeo-Christian interpretation of God.

[Ugly Duck]

"It" is the Pledge of Allegiance. "It" is not a document that grants, restricts or defines the parameters by which rights are meted out. "It" did not include the words "under God" until 1954. The three-word combination "nation, under God" first appeared in the Gettysburgh Address, written and delivered by Abraham Lincoln, a believer in God, but a professed non-Christian. "God" is not limited to the god of Abraham, nor only to the Judeo-Christian interpretation of God.

Thank you.

[Mi_chief_fan]

Aren't all Raider fans Wiccans?

[Ugly Duck]

talking snakes?

whew...

http://graphics.christianbook.com/g/slideshow/2/25923/main/25923_3.jpg

[Mr Luzcious]

Fluffy Bunnies? Oy. Haven't heard that term in a while. ROFL
http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/attachment.php?attachmentid=72555&stc=1

So this is what a Wiccan looks like?

[Nightwish]

So this is what a Wiccan looks like?
Yes, but with our amazing magical powers, we can appear human when we wish.

[kcchiefsfanGoLJ]

I have been around people of the Christian belief, and to be quite honest it's quite amusing people can believe in this crap.

I have been around people of the Catholic belief, and to be quite honest it's quite amusing people can believe in this crap.

I have been around people of the Jewish belief, and to be quite honest it's quite amusing people can believe in this crap.

I have been around people of the Muslim belief, and to be quite honest it's quite amusing people can believe in this crap.

I have been around people of the Hindu belief, and to be quite honest it's quite amusing people can believe in this crap.

I have been around people of the Native American belief, and to be quite honest it's quite amusing people can believe in this crap.

I have been around people of the Taoist belief, and to be quite honest it's quite amusing people can believe in this crap.

I have been around people of the Buddhist belief, and to be quite honest it's quite amusing people can believe in this crap.

See how that works?




Some of them are, some of them aren't. See my comment earlier in the thread about newbies, fluffy bunnies, and attention-seekers. Your schoolmate may have been one of that type. It's hardly the only type, or the majority type of Wiccan. Most Wiccans you wouldn't know unless they came right out and told you.
That was hardly the only brash, arrogant and generally uneducated and ignorant statement you've made in this thread.


Touche, it's a very valid point. All I was saying is I have been around people of the wiccan belief (yes more than one), and I am only reporting what I have seen. The point you bring is plain and simple, there is no faith that has perfect followers, it's impossible. I understand that, I wasnt trying to get into an argument with that, i was giving my opinion on the topic of this thread.

[Jilly]

Touche, it's a very valid point. All I was saying is I have been around people of the wiccan belief (yes more than one), and I am only reporting what I have seen. The point you bring is plain and simple, there is no faith that has perfect followers, it's impossible. I understand that, I wasnt trying to get into an argument with that, i was giving my opinion on the topic of this thread.

I just have a question..and I actually mean this, I'm not setting you up, I'm just curious ok? When you were around your "friends" of the wiccan belief, were you ever OPEN to what was going on around you or was your mind in a state of "this is wrong", "I don't like this", "this isn't Christian"?

[kcchiefsfanGoLJ]

then why cast stones?
then why Jesus?
then why grace?
then why love others?

LISTEN, your view of the christian faith is much smaller than mine...your GOD is much smaller than mine. And that probably has to do with the fact that you are 19 years old. Maybe when you find out that your sibling is a Wiccan, or that your Uncle is gay, or heaven forbid, YOU'RE gay (i'm not saying you are, but that's always a possibility), maybe then you might understand how big God's grace is and how encompassing God's love is. Maybe when you hold the hands of sinners as they pass into the next world, youll be better equipped to handle a conversation this big or when you find yourself in the midst of doubt surrounded by a God who still finds something worth keeping in you, you'll understand it. But for now, I can talk until I am blue in the face about the doctrines, dogmas, interpretations of Scriptures and beliefs of God and those blinded eyes of yours will see nothing but your own reality.

My view of the Christian faith is not smaller but limited down to include those who share in the same beliefs as myself. There is no chance I am gay or ever will be. God does not accept gay's this is something I will fight till the end with also, I dont hate the person I hate the sin. My blinded eyes, Im not blinded by anything, you are the one who is blinded, I know where I stand in my faith, it looks as if you are the one who is struggling to find answers? I have held the hands of a sinner as they died and it happened to be my grandpa, so you shouldnt say something like that without knowing my background either. Yes I may only be 20 but I have a lot of knowledge in my faith and it has been used, and there have been times I have stumbled also, but I know where I stand, do you?

[kcchiefsfanGoLJ]

I just have a question..and I actually mean this, I'm not setting you up, I'm just curious ok? When you were around your "friends" of the wiccan belief, were you ever OPEN to what was going on around you or was your mind in a state of "this is wrong", "I don't like this", "this isn't Christian"?


I am a person who will listen to anybodys point of view, and try to see where they are coming from. I have been in conversations too many times where I have listened and never been allowed to share my points. See if we were having this conversation face to face, it would be just the two of us, I dont try to confront someone if front of other people to make them look bad, I like to talk to people in private so they can say what they want to say to me, and I cant sat what I feel I need to say. I am a non-confrontational person, I can argue on-line no problem at all though LOL.

[Jilly]

My view of the Christian faith is not smaller but limited down to include those who share in the same beliefs as myself. There is no chance I am gay or ever will be. God does not accept gay's this is something I will fight till the end with also, I dont hate the person I hate the sin. My blinded eyes, Im not blinded by anything, you are the one who is blinded, I know where I stand in my faith, it looks as if you are the one who is struggling to find answers? I have held the hands of a sinner as they died and it happened to be my grandpa, so you shouldnt say something like that without knowing my background either. Yes I may only be 20 but I have a lot of knowledge in my faith and it has been used, and there have been times I have stumbled also, but I know where I stand, do you?

"God doesn't accept gays"? I suppose God doesn't accept prostitutes, tax collectors, lepers, widows, orphans, children, those in poverty, murderers, the broken, the weak, the tired, the hungry, the oppressed either? Let God be God...and you be you.

If not knowing where I stand means that I'm a horrible person, believer, Christian, minister than I guess I am. I just don't like to reduce God to my ill-equipped human mind.

[Radar Chief]

I have been around people of the Christian belief, and to be quite honest it's quite amusing people can believe in this crap.

I have been around people of the Catholic belief, and to be quite honest it's quite amusing people can believe in this crap.

I have been around people of the Jewish belief, and to be quite honest it's quite amusing people can believe in this crap.

I have been around people of the Muslim belief, and to be quite honest it's quite amusing people can believe in this crap.

I have been around people of the Hindu belief, and to be quite honest it's quite amusing people can believe in this crap.

I have been around people of the Native American belief, and to be quite honest it's quite amusing people can believe in this crap.

I have been around people of the Taoist belief, and to be quite honest it's quite amusing people can believe in this crap.

I have been around people of the Buddhist belief, and to be quite honest it's quite amusing people can believe in this crap.

See how that works?

I was with you until the bolded point, and I only bring this up because there seems to be a misconception as to what a Taoist is.
Taoism isn’t a religion. There is no rigid belief structure, at least not with Lao Tsu Taoism. Confucian Taoism attempts to apply structure to what was meant to be structure less, but I digress.
It’s more a different way of applying logic, of seeing things as they are rather than what we can make them to be. This is the principle of puh (pronounced pooh) translated as “the uncarved block, unsown field, unpainted canvas, yada yada” and living the principle is the Wu Wei (pronounced Woo Way) or “non-doing”.
From what I know of Buddhism, which isn’t much, it’s similar in that Buddha was a philosopher, a man, and he never wanted anyone to pray to him or consider him a deity.

I know the point you were making, just wanted to point out that there is a difference here.

[Radar Chief]

There is no chance I am gay or ever will be. God does not accept gay's this is something I will fight till the end with also, I dont hate the person I hate the sin.

Then why did God create them?
You do realize homosexual behavior isn’t limited to primates, don’t you? Its not even limited to mammals. Are you suggesting God would refuse to love all creatures he/she/it created because they lay with another of similar physical makeup? The God I prefer to “believe” in is a lot more worried about your soul than the physical vessel you call your body. Maybe that’s just me. :shrug:

[kcchiefsfanGoLJ]

"God doesn't accept gays"? I suppose God doesn't accept prostitutes, tax collectors, lepers, widows, orphans, children, those in poverty, murderers, the broken, the weak, the tired, the hungry, the oppressed either? Let God be God...and you be you.

If not knowing where I stand means that I'm a horrible person, believer, Christian, minister than I guess I am. I just don't like to reduce God to my ill-equipped human mind.


Wow are you sure your not Moromon because it seems to me you are a person of smoke and mirrors you dont answer questions, you just ask your own. Your not going to get me in some battle of Theology because I know my Theology, wether or not you are a "minister", I dont know what bible you are reading but I would like to see where it say's homosexuality is right.

[kcchiefsfanGoLJ]

Then why did God create them?
You do realize homosexual behavior isn’t limited to primates, don’t you? Its not even limited to mammals. Are you suggesting God would refuse to love all creatures he/she/it created because they lay with another of similar physical makeup? The God I prefer to “believe” in is a lot more worried about your soul than the physical vessel you call your body. Maybe that’s just me. :shrug:


God did not creat homo's thats something that sin has done for him, you can thank Satan for that. Homosexuality is not accepted, but condoned in the bible, which god are you following?

[Nightwish]

I dont know what bible you are reading but I would like to see where it say's homosexuality is right.
No bible says that. In fact, the Bible makes pretty clear that at least its authors believe that homosexuality is a sin. Another thing that the Bible does not say is that God only accepts those who are without sin. In fact, it says quite the opposite.

[kcchiefsfanGoLJ]

No bible says that. In fact, the Bible makes pretty clear that at least its authors believe that homosexuality is a sin. Another thing that the Bible does not say is that God only accepts those who are without sin. In fact, it says quite the opposite.


Correct, i dont think I argued that point. Everyone who is saved has and will continue to sin, it's the world we live in. If you are gay and are truly saved you need to make a decision who you want to follow, the world or God.

[Radar Chief]

God did not creat homo's thats something that sin has done for him, you can thank Satan for that.

Did Satan also influence all other creatures exhibiting the same behavior? If so, how if they have no “consciousness”? Why, if they have no “soul”?

which god are you following?

Thought I spelled that out already. :shrug:

[Jilly]

Wow are you sure your not Moromon because it seems to me you are a person of smoke and mirrors you dont answer questions, you just ask your own. Your not going to get me in some battle of Theology because I know my Theology, wether or not you are a "minister", I dont know what bible you are reading but I would like to see where it say's homosexuality is right.

what's a moromon?

[kcchiefsfanGoLJ]

It would be a Mormon without using the spell check.

[Jilly]

Wow are you sure your not Moromon because it seems to me you are a person of smoke and mirrors you dont answer questions, you just ask your own. Your not going to get me in some battle of Theology because I know my Theology, wether or not you are a "minister", I dont know what bible you are reading but I would like to see where it say's homosexuality is right.

I'm reading the Bible that says it's not for me to judge...I'm reading the Bible that says to take the log out of my own eye before taking it out of my brother's. I'm reading the Bible that says the fruit of the spirit is love joy peace patience kindness gentleness faithfulness and self control, I'm reading the Bible that says THY KINGDOM COME, THY WILL BE DONE ON EARTH, I'm reading the Bible that says Jesus came to save not the healthy, but the sick... I'm reading the very same Bible as you, but with an open heart and an open mind because I realize that I have a whole lot more to learn.

Can anyone find me that vid on YOU TUBE from the West Wing when he talks about Homosexuality and quotes all those other verse from the Bible? I can't seem to find it....

[Sully]

Maybe my favorite "West Wing" scene, ever... and that's saying something.... this script should at least give you a start on finding the clip on YouTube...

"President Bartlet" walked into the large room where most people were standing and talking, but "Dr. Jena Jacobs" who was played by a blond women prettier and younger than the real Dr. Laura (though with the same hair style), remained sitting, the relevance of which you'll soon see.

Bartlet saw her and became distracted, leading to this exchange followed by a sermon from Bartlet: "Forgive me Dr. Jabobs, are you an MD?"

Jacobs: "A PhD."

Bartlet: "A PhD?"

Jacobs: "Yes sir."

Bartlet: "Psychology?"

Jacobs: "No sir."

Bartlet: "Theology?"

Jacobs: "No."

Bartlet: "Social work?"

Jacobs: "I have a PhD in English literature."

Bartlet: "I'm asking because on your show people call in for advice and you go by the name 'Dr. Jacobs' on your show and I didn't know if maybe your listeners were confused by that and assumed you had advanced training in psychology, theology or health care."

Jacobs: "I don't believe they are confused, no sir."

Bartlet: "Good. I like your show. I like how you call homosexuality ‘an abomination.'"

Jacobs: "I don't say homosexuality is an abomination Mr. President. The Bible does."

Bartlet: "Yes it does. Leviticus-"

Jacobs: "18:22."

Bartlet launched into an impassioned diatribe which was interspersed with shots of an uncomfortable Jacobs fidgeting: "Chapter and verse. I wanted to ask you a couple of questions while I had you here. I'm interested in selling my youngest daughter into slavery as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. She's a Georgetown sophomore, speaks fluent Italian, always cleared the table when it was her turn. What would a good price for her be? [silence in the room] While thinking about that can I ask another? My chief-of-staff, Leo McGarry, insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly says he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself or is it okay to call the police?

"Here's one that's really important, 'cause we've got a lot of sports fans in this town. Touching the skin of a dead pig makes one unclean, Leviticus 11:7. If they promise to wear gloves can the Washington Redskins still play football? Can Notre Dame? Can West Point? Does the whole town really have to be together to stone my brother John for planting different crops side-by-side? Can I burn my mother in a small family gathering for wearing garments made from two different threads? Think about those questions, would you.

"One last thing. While you may be mistaking this for your monthly meeting of the ignorant tight-ass club, in this building when the President stands, nobody sits."

[Jilly]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rWuXpfXSl5Y

[kcchiefsfanGoLJ]

I'm reading the Bible that says it's not for me to judge...I'm reading the Bible that says to take the log out of my own eye before taking it out of my brother's. I'm reading the Bible that says the fruit of the spirit is love joy peace patience kindness gentleness faithfulness and self control, I'm reading the Bible that says THY KINGDOM COME, THY WILL BE DONE ON EARTH, I'm reading the Bible that says Jesus came to save not the healthy, but the sick... I'm reading the very same Bible as you, but with an open heart and an open mind because I realize that I have a whole lot more to learn.

Can anyone find me that vid on YOU TUBE from the West Wing when he talks about Homosexuality and quotes all those other verse from the Bible? I can't seem to find it....


I see your point, and I accept it's validity, Im not going to attack anyone personally (I apologized for the remark about you doing your job), I may attack your beliefs, but that's what this forum is for. I understand your point and it's a good point, but like I have also said I dont chastise gay's but rather try and get them to realize what they are doing is wrong. I also need to put out there my intereaction with homosexuals is not everyday, but merely a few times a week, so I am not going to walk up to someone I know and hit them with a bible LOL. I wasnt looking to start a fight I wanted to see the view points you had, use Theology to back up my points, and see where we stand. I am also not saying I am never wrong, I like to learn new things, explore someone else's thoughts, you can never learn too much.

I had a friend who was homosexual for a long time, he ended up getting saved and turned from that path and now is married and has kids, and is raising a beautiful Christian family. That is what I like to see, the world is a cesspool of people aknowledgedly doing the wrong thing and not regretting it. I am tired of people these days that dont have any consciousness about doing the wrong/right thing. The world is a "take all, and give none" society, and it's pretty sad to see.

[kcchiefsfanGoLJ]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rWuXpfXSl5Y


That video means absolutely nothing to me. All he is doing is bringing up the laws they used to follow during the "Bible Times". Those laws arent hardly applicable these days, see in those days those rules were also the law, Jesus said to follow the Law and give unto Caesar what is Caesar, so technically these old Laws arent in the Legislation we follow. So would you consider us not following the same Laws that were used in the B.C. Era wrong?

[Sully]

That video means absolutely nothing to me. All he is doing is bringing up the laws they used to follow during the "Bible Times". Those laws arent hardly applicable these days, see in those days those rules were also the law, Jesus said to follow the Law and give unto Caesar what is Caesar, so technically these old Laws arent in the Legislation we follow. So would you consider us not following the same Laws that were used in the B.C. Era wrong?
Watch it again in about 7 years.

[Jilly]

Listen, imo, whether a person is right or wrong, it is my ONLY duty to love them unconditionally (without strings or agenda), like I would you or any other person in the world even if I'm uncomfortable...it is my task in life not to correct their wrongs, but to show them the same kind of hospitality and grace shown to us through Jesus' life. I cannot possibly love someone this way and condemn them at the same time.

[kcchiefsfanGoLJ]

Listen, imo, whether a person is right or wrong, it is my ONLY duty to love them unconditionally (without strings or agenda), like I would you or any other person in the world even if I'm uncomfortable...it is my task in life not to correct their wrongs, but to show them the same kind of hospitality and grace shown to us through Jesus' life. I cannot possibly love someone this way and condemn them at the same time.

I dont quite understand the text you are applying this to, are you saying you cant condemn somone for doing a wrong action?

[Mi_chief_fan]

I see your point, and I accept it's validity, Im not going to attack anyone personally (I apologized for the remark about you doing your job), I may attack your beliefs, but that's what this forum is for. I understand your point and it's a good point, but like I have also said I dont chastise gay's but rather try and get them to realize what they are doing is wrong. I also need to put out there my intereaction with homosexuals is not everyday, but merely a few times a week, so I am not going to walk up to someone I know and hit them with a bible LOL. I wasnt looking to start a fight I wanted to see the view points you had, use Theology to back up my points, and see where we stand. I am also not saying I am never wrong, I like to learn new things, explore someone else's thoughts, you can never learn too much.

I had a friend who was homosexual for a long time, he ended up getting saved and turned from that path and now is married and has kids, and is raising a beautiful Christian family. That is what I like to see, the world is a cesspool of people aknowledgedly doing the wrong thing and not regretting it. I am tired of people these days that dont have any consciousness about doing the wrong/right thing. The world is a "take all, and give none" society, and it's pretty sad to see.

Oh boy, shit's about to hit the fan in 3,2,1...........

[kcchiefsfanGoLJ]

Oh boy, shit's about to hit the fan in 3,2,1...........

Why's that?

[Jilly]

[QUOTE=kcchiefsfanGoLJ


I dont quite understand the text you are applying this to, are you saying you cant condemn somone for doing a wrong action?[/QUOTE]


If I truly LOVE someone, unconditionally, how can I tell them they are going to burn forever in some hell? If I love my enemies, how can I kill them? If I truly LOVE someone, how can I say to them - who you are is wrong and you're going to hell for it?

imo, I can't. God's Love in me is something much more than correcting a person's mistakes, but rather accepting them for who they are and having faith that God's got them in the palm of Her hand.

I don't understand God's grace...but I do know that it is far reaching. After all, Moses was a murderer; David was an adulterer and murderer; Peter denied; Mary was a prostitute. And God somehow managed to pick up the good parts in them and use it ON EARTH to better the world.

[Sully]

God's got them in the palm of Her hand.




LOL
Speaking of shit hitting the fan...

[Jilly]

LOL
Speaking of shit hitting the fan...

I'm onery!!! :D

[|Zach|]

but like I have also said I dont chastise gay's but rather try and get them to realize what they are doing is wrong.
Really? Why.

A few people going out and living their lives as they see fit? Why inject yourself into it at all?

[chagrin]

Well at least there's some good news, Elwood Bartlett, a self described Wiccan has been identified as one of the winners in the recent Mega Millions Super Lottery... :shrug:

[kcchiefsfanGoLJ]

[QUOTE=kcchiefsfanGoLJ


I dont quite understand the text you are applying this to, are you saying you cant condemn somone for doing a wrong action?


If I truly LOVE someone, unconditionally, how can I tell them they are going to burn forever in some hell? If I love my enemies, how can I kill them? If I truly LOVE someone, how can I say to them - who you are is wrong and you're going to hell for it?

imo, I can't. God's Love in me is something much more than correcting a person's mistakes, but rather accepting them for who they are and having faith that God's got them in the palm of Her hand.

I don't understand God's grace...but I do know that it is far reaching. After all, Moses was a murderer; David was an adulterer and murderer; Peter denied; Mary was a prostitute. And God somehow managed to pick up the good parts in them and use it ON EARTH to better the world.[/QUOTE]


I can truly and honestly respect that, but wouldnt it be just as bad if they died and went to hell and you never had a chance to witness to them? Oh believe me when I say there have been a lot of times where I have no idea why God would choose me to be saved, I am defeinetely not worthy of being in his kingdom. I know what you are saying and I see your opinion, and I do respect it.

[Chiefnj2]

I had a friend who was homosexual for a long time, he ended up getting saved and turned from that path and now is married and has kids, and is raising a beautiful Christian family.

You are friends with Senator Craig??

[Mi_chief_fan]

Why's that?

Well, not that I really care, because i'm neither Christian or gay, but...

I had a friend who was homosexual for a long time, he ended up getting saved and turned from that path and now is married and has kids, and is raising a beautiful Christian family. That is what I like to see, the world is a cesspool of people aknowledgedly doing the wrong thing and not regretting it. I am tired of people these days that dont have any consciousness about doing the wrong/right thing. The world is a "take all, and give none" society, and it's pretty sad to see.

Your saying that, in a nutshell, gays are not only not Christian, but are "wrong", and they need to be "saved" from their lifestyle, as if you're judge, jury and executioner. Can you see where some people, who may happen to be homosexual, might take offense to that way of thinking? And no, i'm not going to get into a theological discussion with you, because you base your belief on what I believe to be a book mostly of fiction.

[Sully]

I can truly and honestly respect that, but wouldnt it be just as bad if they died and went to hell and you never had a chance to witness to them?
Depends on your beliefs on what the nature and/or existence of hell is, I suppose.

[kcchiefsfanGoLJ]

Your saying that, in a nutshell, gays are not only not Christian, but are "wrong", and they need to be "saved" from their lifestyle, as if you're judge, jury and executioner. Can you see where some people, who may happen to be homosexual, might take offense to that way of thinking? And no, i'm not going to get into a theological discussion with you, because you base your belief on what I believe to be a book mostly of fiction.

Yea I do, and I am not going to be brash about it but I will try to convey my thoughts about their actions towards them without offending them. You only have 1 first impression.

[kcchiefsfanGoLJ]

You are friends with Senator Craig??

LOL

[Pittsie]

I can truly and honestly respect that, but wouldnt it be just as bad if they died and went to hell and you never had a chance to witness to them? Oh believe me when I say there have been a lot of times where I have no idea why God would choose me to be saved, I am defeinetely not worthy of being in his kingdom. I know what you are saying and I see your opinion, and I do respect it.

KcchiefsfanGoLJ, since you're a fellow Chiefs fan, I'd rather not see you suffer for eternity. If you're eating shellfish or bacon, please renounce your wicked path and come back to the light.

[Mi_chief_fan]

Yea I do, and I am not going to be brash about it but I will try to convey my thoughts about their actions towards them without offending them. You only have 1 first impression.
I see. Telling them their wrong and going to hell without offending them. Just like Ray Romano's mom on Everybody Loves Raymond.

[Adept Havelock]

KcchiefsfanGoLJ, since you're a fellow Chiefs fan, I'd rather not see you suffer for eternity. If you're eating shellfish or bacon, please renounce your wicked path and come back to the light.

He's probably wearing clothes made with more than one fiber as well.

BTW- Love the sig line. Isn't it from "It Can't Happen Here"?


I see. Telling them their wrong and going to hell without offending them. Just like Ray Romano's mom on Everybody Loves Raymond.

ROFL 4.0 with secondary explosions.

What else would you expect from a yammerhead kid who has stated people should be denied their Constitutional rights because of the faith they choose? He's our own little Nehemiah Scudder.

[SCTrojan]

This really was caused by confusion about next-of-kin, for what that's worth.

http://www.lasvegassun.com/sunbin/stories/nevada/2007/aug/30/083010394.html


Wiccan widow not invited to meeting with Bush



FALLON, Nev. (AP) - The White House and military officials said the exclusion of a Fallon woman from a private meeting with President Bush for families of fallen Nevada soldiers was an oversight, not an intentional snub because of her Wiccan faith.

Bush met privately with families of Nevada soldiers during his visit to Reno on Tuesday.

Roberta Stewart, the widow of Sgt. Patrick Stewart, was not among the invited guests.

Patrick Stewart and four others soldiers were killed Sept. 25, 2005, when a Chinook helicopter was shot down in Afghanistan.

After his death, Roberta Stewart spent more than a year in a public struggle with the Department of Veterans Affairs to have her husband's grave marked with a Wiccan religious symbol.

White House spokesman Trey Bohn said Roberta Stewart's exclusion from the meeting with Bush was a regrettable oversight by the Army, who provided contact information to the president.

"The president was not aware. This was an oversight on the part of the Army, and we deeply regret the mistake," Bohn told the Lahontan Valley News.

A military official echoed the White House's explanation.

"It was an unfortunate oversight by the Army. Inadvertently, the second family member was notified. A mistake occurred. She's an Army spouse. She's part of the family. It was a mistake, an unfortunate mistake," said Lt. Col. Jonathan Withington of the U.S. Department of Defense in Washington, D.C.

Stewart said she was told the "next of kin" was notified by the president's staff prior to the visit.

"Funny, I'm listed as Patrick's next of kin, so I don't understand why I was not called personally."

According to the "Record of Emergency Data" provided by Stewart, the spouse is the first person listed on the document for notification purposes. The children are listed second, followed by the service member's father, then mother.

Rev. Selena Fox, senior minister of Circle Sanctuary, a Wiccan organization in Barneveld, Wis., doesn't buy the government's explanation.

"I don't believe Roberta's exclusion from the meeting with President Bush was an oversight," she said. "Out of all the Nevada soldiers who were killed in the wars, the most visible of those was the late Sgt. Patrick Stewart and his widow Roberta Stewart, who was in the media for more than a year working to get him properly honored.

"I find it surprising and disappointing that with such widespread publicity she was excluded from the meeting," she said.

[Pittsie]

BTW- Love the sig line. Isn't it from "It Can't Happen Here"?

It is, not that I knew the source before I stumbled across the quote. I've only read The Jungle, which I vaguely recall as pretty socalist.

[Adept Havelock]

It is, not that I knew the source before I stumbled across the quote. I've only read The Jungle, which I vaguely recall as pretty socalist.


The Jungle? Yeah, it was supposed to be a clarion call for the workers movement. Luckily, it had the unintended effect of forcing inspections on the Meat industry. From what I've read, Lewis was pissed about that.

I always enjoyed (if that's the right word) "It Can't Happen Here". Fantastic commentary on how any society could be swept into a dictatorial government.

[Mi_chief_fan]

It is, not that I knew the source before I stumbled across the quote. I've only read The Jungle, which I vaguely recall as pretty socalist.

A fan of Upton Sinclair? I read The Jungle in college, nearly became a vegan.

[kcchiefsfanGoLJ]

He's probably wearing clothes made with more than one fiber as well.

BTW- Love the sig line. Isn't it from "It Can't Happen Here"?




ROFL 4.0 with secondary explosions.

What else would you expect from a yammerhead kid who has stated people should be denied their Constitutional rights because of the faith they choose? He's our own little Nehemiah Scudder.


Why dont you go just go away, your like this annoying pest that posts only after I post, so you can be annoying. Go back to your wife and kids and middle age.

[Adept Havelock]

Why dont you go just go away, your like this annoying pest that posts only after I post, so you can be annoying. Go back to your wife and kids and middle age.


:deevee:

Cry some more, kiddo. You're the one who made the idiotic statement. I'm just giving you multiple chances to own it proudly. What a great American you are, to decide only certain citizens of the proper faith deserve their rights.

BTW- You're nowhere near important enough to be the sole basis of my postings. You're just an entertaining target of opportunity while I'm postwhoring.

You'll likely grow out of it. Most of us here remember when we were 19 and thought we knew everything.

[kcchiefsfanGoLJ]

:deevee:

Cry some more, kiddo. You're the one who made the idiotic statement. I'm just giving you multiple chances to own it proudly. What a great American you are, to decide only certain citizens of the proper faith deserve their rights.

BTW- You're nowhere near important enough to be the sole basis of my postings. You're just an entertaining target of opportunity while I'm postwhoring.

You'll likely grow out of it. Most of us here remember when we were 19 and thought we knew everything too.


LMAO, Im not crying at all, I just think it's funny because it's my opinion, not yours, if you dont like it, well thats tuff isnt it. Why dont you cry some more pops because I dont give a crap about what you think about me.

[Adept Havelock]

LMAO, Im not crying at all, I just think it's funny because it's my opinion, not yours, if you dont like it, well thats tuff isnt it. Why dont you cry some more pops because I dont give a crap about what you think about me.


Ahh, instead of the tired old martyr card, you've moved to some weak attempts at smack.

Yep, it's a free country. If you want to be ignorant enough to believe that people of a different faith (color/sexual preference/etc.) are inferior and don't deserve the rights given them in the Constitution, knock yourself out.

Just remember the same Constitution that gives you the right to believe whatever nonsense you want also has clauses to keep your brand of nonsense from ever being enacted into law. Enjoy the scorn, contempt, and a hearty preemptive F**k You from the Founding Fathers. :D

It's called the First Amendment. You might try reading it sometime. You're free to believe whatever you want. So is everyone else. Even better, all those views are equal in the eyes of the Law. No matter how much that might piss you off.

And thanks for the concern, but the Old Woman and I (yep, happily living in sin for many many years) didn't bother with kids. Plenty of Nieces and Nephews to fill that role, though. As for middle age, it beats the alternative. Someday you'll grow up and realize that too.

Seriously, go find yourself a nice little Christian Theocracy to move to. I'm sure with so many folks agreeing with you, you won't have any trouble finding one. Or you could try pushing for an amendment to the Constitution that strikes down the Freedom of Religion. Why don't you try that and see what kind of reception you get?

PBJ PBJ PBJ

[kcchiefsfanGoLJ]

Ahh, instead of the tired old martyr card, you've moved to some weak attempts at smack.

Yep, it's a free country. If you want to be ignorant enough to believe that people of a different faith (color/sexual preference/etc.) are inferior and don't deserve the rights given them in the Constitution, knock yourself out.

Just remember the same Constitution that gives you the right to believe whatever nonsense you want also has clauses to keep your brand of nonsense from ever being enacted into law. Enjoy the scorn, contempt, and a hearty preemptive F**k You from the Founding Fathers. :D

It's called the First Amendment. You might try reading it sometime. You're free to believe whatever you want. So is everyone else. Even better, all those views are equal in the eyes of the Law. No matter how much that might piss you off.

And thanks for the concern, but the Old Woman and I (yep, happily living in sin for many many years) didn't bother with kids. Plenty of Nieces and Nephews to fill that role, though. As for middle age, it beats the alternative. Someday you'll grow up and realize that too.

Seriously, go find yourself a nice little Christian Theocracy to move to. I'm sure with so many folks agreeing with you, you won't have any trouble finding one. Or you could try pushing for an amendment to the Constitution that strikes down the Freedom of Religion. Why don't you try that and see what kind of reception you get?

PBJ PBJ PBJ


LMAO LMAO LMAO LMAO, you crack me, your trying so hard to make me feel bad or hurt my feelings it's almost juvenille. You are very delusional if you think I have said I dont want them as members of the country, on the contrary I dont want us condoning the fact that she was a wiccan. I dont give a crap if your gay, wiccan, etc etc, I dont agree with it but it's your right, and to be quite honest if they want to be "different" go ahead. When did I ever say people of a different faith are inferior, or dont deserve any rights? By the way it's a good thing you didnt have kids the world would be a worse place if the kids took after you.

[Adept Havelock]

LMAO LMAO LMAO LMAO, you crack me, your trying so hard to make me feel bad or hurt my feelings it's almost juvenille.

Frankly, I don't care if you feel bad or not.

Granted, If I held an ideal the Founders of my nation had pissed all over, I might reexamine it. But that's only because I suspect they (or others) might be a bit brighter than me. After all, I'm not a teenager who thinks they know everything.

I'm always happy to provide a laugh, even to a yammerhead kid like yourself. :)


You are very delusional if you think I have said I dont want them as members of the country, on the contrary I dont want us condoning the fact that she was a wiccan. I dont give a crap if your gay, wiccan, etc etc, I dont agree with it but it's your right, and to be quite honest if they want to be "different" go ahead.

If that's true (which contradicts your earlier post), congrats. You're starting to get it.


When did I ever say people of a different faith are inferior, or dont deserve any rights?

Where? Right here, yammerhead:

I dont have a problem with that, keep the witches and their emblems away from the public. I am tired of these kind of people wanting their rights. It says "One nation under God", not "One nation under satan".

You may not have directly said it, but you sure as hell implied it. Now, having been called out on the point you're backpedaling better than many NFL DB's. Or am I misunderstanding your use of the classic "Those People", immortalized by Religious and Racial Bigots throughout history? ROFL

You don't care if other people practice their faiths, as long as they don't do it in public if you disagree with them? That's a pretty pathetic double standard you've got working. But hey, it's a free country. You're certainly free to be a hypocrite, as I suspect you would whine about persecution and freedom of religon if someone suggested the symbols of your superstition of choice should be "kept away from the public".

Where is the exemption for Wiccans or other faiths you disagree with in the First Amendment? I must have missed that day in Civics class.


By the way it's a good thing you didnt have kids the world would be a worse place if the kids took after you.

Nah, the world can always use another Epicurian Hedonist or three. :Pimp:

Junior, thy smack is weaker than - ahem, shut your mouth -. Take a lesson or three in smack from Iowanian and come back when you're learned something.

As I've said before, if you want to be a religious bigot, go right ahead. It's a free country.

Thanks for the chuckles. It's been fun, even if it is akin to fishing with depth charges.

[kcchiefsfanGoLJ]

You may not have directly said it, but you sure as hell implied it. Now, having been called out on the point you're backpedaling better than many NFL DB's. Or am I misunderstanding your use of the classic "Those People", immortalized by Religious and Racial Bigots throughout history?

Thats the point, i didnt directly say it, check your glasses pops because you are becoming illiterate in your old age. You crack me up, trying to intimidate me or "put me in my place" with your names. The funny thing is you come at me with your biggest shot and then say, "well you didnt directly say, but close enough", so weak. I dont need to talk smack or try and be-little someone by calling them junior or yammerhead, because I dont care what you call me or what you think of me. Post of the Year "You may not have directly said it, but you sure as hell implied it", that's all you have pops. LMAO LMAO.

[Adept Havelock]

You may not have directly said it, but you sure as hell implied it. Now, having been called out on the point you're backpedaling better than many NFL DB's. Or am I misunderstanding your use of the classic "Those People", immortalized by Religious and Racial Bigots throughout history?

Thats the point, i didnt directly say it, check your glasses pops because you are becoming illiterate in your old age. You crack me up, trying to intimidate me or "put me in my place" with your names. The funny thing is you come at me with your biggest shot and then say, "well you didnt directly say, but close enough", so weak. I dont need to talk smack or try and be-little someone by calling them junior or yammerhead, because I dont care what you call me or what you think of me. Post of the Year "You may not have directly said it, but you sure as hell implied it", that's all you have pops. LMAO LMAO.

Yeah, I'm a snarky bastard sometimes. Don't like it? :deevee: some more. ROFL

Like I've said, you're free to believe whatever idiocy you want. That's the best thing about this country.

That said, I notice you didn't claim my interpretation was incorrect. ;)

Perhaps you could clarify your use of "Those People". Sounds exactly like the same crap I've heard racial bigots say for years.

I dont have a problem with that, keep the witches and their emblems away from the public. I am tired of these kind of people wanting their rights. It says "One nation under God", not "One nation under satan".

So if the Wiccans shouldn't be allowed to have their symbols in public;

Are the Jews allowed to put a Menorah on public display at Hanukkah?

Are Muslims allowed to put a Star and Crescent banner on public display?

Are Buddhist monks permitted to create a Mandala in public?

Are Christian churches allowed to put a Cross on the outside of their building?

Is it permissable for Religious Art to be displayed in public?

If yes for some, but no for others...enjoy your hypocrisy. It's all you've got.

[kcchiefsfanGoLJ]

Sounds exactly like the same crap I've heard racial bigots say for years.

Im not a racial bigot at all, I may fire something right off the top of the dome, but I dont purposely try and be-little anybody. I dont agree with gays, wiccans etc, but the only race that shouldnt have rights are the Illegal Immigrants IMO, if they want their rights then get their citizenship the right way.

[kcchiefsfanGoLJ]

If you want me to answer your posts maybe keep it down to like 2 paragraphs instead of 10. I have others things to do than verbally battle a middle aged man, who is trying to intimidate me with tuff words like hypocrite, biggot, yammerhead, and junior, yet he basis his whole assumption off me on his assumption of what he thinks I meant to say. One problem with your assumption is it's yours not mine, you cant guess at what I was thinking.

Have a nice weekend old chap, I wont be on till monday. Hey maybe you can leave me a cute REP like you have been :p

[Adept Havelock]

Sounds exactly like the same crap I've heard racial bigots say for years.

Im not a racial bigot at all.

Good for you.


I may fire something right off the top of the dome, but I dont purposely try and be-little anybody.

Well, I do. But usually only when confronted with blatant hypocrisy, yammerheadism, young-earth creationists, and Donko/Chokeland fans. Just my pet peeves.


I dont agree with gays, wiccans etc.
That's fine. It's also a far cry from claiming a religious group should not be free to display their symbols in public because you personally disagree with them. :shrug:


but the only race that shouldnt have rights is Illegal Immigrants IMO, if they want their rights then get their citizenship the right way.

Well, I'm not sure how Illegal Immigrants qualify as a "race", but that quibble aside...I agree wholeheartedly.

Good to know you accept Wiccans and everyone else are just as entitled to freedom of religion (even in public) as you are. Even if it does contradict your earlier post.

If you want me to answer your posts maybe keep it down to like 2 paragraphs instead of 10.

Well, I've always been overly-verbose. :shrug:

I have others things to do than verbally battle a middle aged man, who is trying to intimidate me with tuff words like hypocrite, biggot, yammerhead, and junior, yet he basis his whole assumption off me on his assumption of what he thinks I meant to say.One problem with your assumption is it's yours not mine, you cant guess at what I was thinking.
Sure I can, and directly from what you said, not from assumption.

You claimed a religious group you disagreed with shouldn't be allowed to display their symbols in public. In short, you denied them the same freedom of religion you enjoy, simply because you disagree with it.

Granted, you did come around after a lot of back and forth and retract that statement. Good for you. :clap:


BTW- If you consider those "tuff" words, you really should spend some time reading quality smack. My brand is far inferior to that of Mr. Iowanian, Bwana, and many other posters here on the planet.

Have a nice weekend old chap, I wont be on till monday. Hey maybe you can leave me a cute REP like you have been :p

You as well, and happy to oblige.

[kcchiefsfanGoLJ]

I have tasted the harsh tongue of too many people on this site, but hey that's what is so great about these sites.


"Good to know you accept Wiccans and everyone else are just as entitled to freedom of religion (even in public) as you are. Even if it does contradict your earlier post."


It doesnt really contradict my earlier posts, but when I have to read and reply to 10 people taking shots at me, things can get repetitive or even mundayne (sp). Let me say this I agree with freedom of religion, but I do not like some of the groups that get to pratice under this heading. The world is never gonna change, I know that, but I will try and change people for the better, wether they agree with me or not, that is their choice. I would like to give people the gospel message. Let me also say that I will never stop changing either, and hopefully I will always be changing for the better.