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BIG_DADDY
05-18-2001, 06:14 PM
Great article guys. Since I seem to be the only one that brings up this subject, I thought I would let someone else post this thread today but since nobody did today, here it is: http://www.kcstar.com/item/pages/home.pat,local/3accae95.517,.html

You guys must have some pride in having 40k NRA members meeting there in KC. I am a diehard gun rights fanatic and am intelligent enough to understand that the right to defend yourself and defend your country against tyranny is a fundamental human right each one of us has unless you are mentally ill. I am even for felons having the right to own guns after they have paid their debt to society and then proven they can be a productive member of it for say 5 years or so. Everything is a felony anymore and if they are doing the right things they should be able to defend themselves like anyone else. Out of the 30k deaths attributed to guns by the demorats only 3k are actually innocent victims of gun violence. There are also over 2.5 million successful defensive gun uses in this country every year. This combined with the citizenries right to protect the country against tyranny is overwhelmingly weighted twords gun rights. IMHO you have to be an idiot to buy into the crap the Demorats and liberal media have been selling. BTW, Yes, parents should be held accountable for their kids actions.

BIG DADDY

Hopes he isn't being too harsh. The ONLY right that is more important than the right to bear arms is the the right to free speech. Your thoughts? Anyone going?

JOhn
05-18-2001, 07:29 PM
I'm Like most gun owners, I think. I could care less about someones agenda, weather it's the Media, Dem's or even NRA. I own my guns because I WANT TO. I use them for hunting, and because I enjoy target shooting, and yes god forbid I would ever have to, but for the defense of my family.

But finally the people who want to keep regulating MY choices have really P!SSED me off!!! For CHR!ST SAKES, I cannot even go in and by a Shotgun whith out a lenghty wait and check. I'm sorry but last time I checked, very few crimes were commited by a person buying a turkey gun and going out and shooting up a quick trip.

Yes I believe there should be checks, especially for Handguns & "assualt" type guns, ie Tech-9's ect. But Lets ENFORCE THE LAWS we have now, before we impliment more.

Rick Stephens
05-18-2001, 08:06 PM
Big Daddy,

I wish I were in Kansas City to attend the National Rifle Association's annual meeting. I believe it is the right of an individual to keep and bear arms. We have too many politicians who are trying to take my rights from me. Slick Willie and Diane Fineswine and the Democratic Communist Party have no right to tell me which guns I can and can not own. This is the first step in disarming the citizens of our country. The other night on MSNBC there were the Demorats complaining about the 50 cal. rifle. They want this gun banned. This gun has not been used to commit the crimes that they were projecting on that show. When are the citizens of this country going to wake up.
In the Peoples Republic of Kalifornia you can only buy guns which are on the DOJ list of approved guns. It is a sad that these politicians are taking away our rights and it's as if these people don't care. They forget that if it weren't for people who liked guns and knew how to use them they may well be speaking German or Japanese today. I would like to ask Fineswine if her relatives in Germany would have gotten on those German sight seeing trains had they had some guns to fight with. I don't think so.


"Any society willing to give up a little liberty for a little security will deserve neither and will lose both."- Thomas Jefferson

BIG_DADDY
05-19-2001, 03:00 PM
Rick

Fineswine :) is a complete hypocrite anyway. She had a handgun fall out of her purse and then tried to defend why she thought she should have them and nobody else. " I have been marshalled and can carry a concealed weapon" Of course that went over like a lead balloon since she want's to completely disarm society and has no problem saying that. So she holds a press conference to announce that she is turning in her gun and every freaking station in the bay area covers the story. 60 days later she goes and get's another gun. It makes no headlines whatsoever. I hate our media out here. The only reason I found out was through the NRA.

John,

The NRA is about the last group that cares about the second amendment. I hope you support them. I do even though I don't believe in everything they stand for. They have went to far to compromise with these damn demorats. IMHO.

Tomahawk 11
05-19-2001, 03:11 PM
How long is the wait on buying a shotgun these days anyway?

Rick Stephens
05-19-2001, 03:25 PM
Tomahawk,

It depends where you live on the wait to buy a shotgun. In some states you can buy it and if they have the instant check system you can take it right then. In the Peoples Republic of Kalifornia you would have to wait ten days.

JOhn
05-19-2001, 04:50 PM
Originally posted by Tomahawk 11
How long is the wait on buying a shotgun these days anyway?

Missouri Is one of those states with an instant check. BUT every time I have purchased a firearm (3) in the past year, I have had to wait 3 days, then when the FBI had not gotten back to the seller, I was allowed to go ahead and purchase the gun. ( the law states that the FBI has 3 bussiness days to respond to any inquiry, IF they don't you can purchase the gun anyway. BUT if they respond after 3 days and DON'T approve you, then they can make you surrender the gun...lol right)

Now funny thing is, I have 6 long guns, 3 shotguns, and 2 handguns I have permits to carry concelled weapons, yet they still can't every seem to get it right, hence my wait.

i can understand a wait on handguns, and automatic weapons, rifles included. By shotguns and single shot weapons? Please lets enforce the laws on the books before we try and restrict my rights further.

I'm not sure of the %'s but MOST crimes are commited with ILLEGAL guns, and by people who broke existing laws, that if enforced would have preculded there owning a gun.


I do know one thing, Wyoming which allows the carrying of concelled weapons, has a lower per person violent crime and accident rate involving guns! Kinda shoots the Dem's theory's all to H*LL!

Rick Stephens
05-19-2001, 05:49 PM
John,

It sure is funny that after Florida passed a concealed carry weapon law the murders and crimes against the tourists are now almost unheard of. The crime in Florida went way down when this law was passed. It is a proven fact that the states with a CCW have a lower crime rate than the states which do not have one.

Don't feel bad I know a guy in Kansas who is a LEO also gets a delay in the instacheck system.

Tomahawk 11
05-20-2001, 01:08 AM
I haven't bought a shotgun in a while, but I was gonna tell ya, just like John did that it was about 5 minutes here.

Another question: Why do you call it the People's Republic of California? I'm sure I should already know this.

47mack
05-20-2001, 05:37 AM
There is no room for politics when it comes to the right to own a gun. Many crimes that are committed with a gun are done so with a stolen or unregistered gun. making it illegal for all citizen to own a gun will not get the guns out of the hands of criminals.

IMO, gun control is more of a waste than the war on drugs.

TCB
05-20-2001, 08:20 AM
Big Daddy, Speaking as someone who does not own a gun you guys who do are taking the wrong avenue to debate the issue of gun control. Instead of "the right to protect your family and your country from tyranny" you need to focus on the fact that gun control will do nothing more than take guns out of the hands of law abiding citizens and put them into the hands of crimminals.
I do not support any type of concealed weapons act but I do support the right of an individual to own firearms.
The bottom line is if you make guns illegal then you have created another black market where money can be made. As with illegal drugs, death and destruction will soon follow.

ken man

old_geezer
05-20-2001, 02:33 PM
I'll admit I was against concealed carry when it was first brought up in Missouri, but after listening to both sides of the argument and looking at the stats they had to offer, I changed my mind.
Crime seems to have dropped and there are no shoot-outs on the street to report.
I also admit I have no problem with a 3-day waiting period to buy a handgun and background checks. You can still buy your gun if you're not a felon. The wait is no big deal.

Tomahawk 11
05-20-2001, 09:22 PM
I don't disagree with everything the NRA is doing and I don't agree with all of it either. Here I am back in my middle of the road role. They just get too extreme for me some times. I don't think anyone could succeed in disarming america. I know I wouldn't volunteer to.

The question I keep coming back to with the whole 2nd amendment right to arms is when the constitution was written they had musketts that took a while to load and even then you only got one shot. Did they ever dream of fully automatic assault rifles with high capacity magazines? They take about 30 seconds to load and 2 seconds to empty. Then you just pop the second magazine in and another 2 seconds goes by and 60 rounds are fired.

I am a gun owner (30-30 deer rifle, .40 calibre glock 22c), I just draw the line with the automatic assault weapons. They have one use, they are designed to kill PEOPLE and they are extremely efficient with little forgiveness. I mean, are we going to be debating whether or not I have the right to own a Halitser in 20 years?

I see the whole black market arguement on that too though. I realize though that if someone wants to kill me bad enough they will do it. No matter how heavily armed (concealed or not) I am. I could walk around town with my concealed .40 and my 30-30 on my back and someone could kill me with a dull soup spoon if they wanted to.

I wonder if licensing guns (kinda like cars) isn't the way to go. Just a thought. I do feel that something needs to be changed with guns. That doesn't mean that I think they should be taken away from us completely.

One more thing.... go easy on me, I like guns. :D

Rick Stephens
05-20-2001, 10:20 PM
Tomahawk,

The last crime that I can think of that was commited with a automatic assault rifle was the Hollywood bank shootout. These were full auto which were illegal to begin with, so these guys were criminals before they ever used the guns. Most crimes are not commited with assault rifles. To own a full auto gun you must live in a state that is considered a Class #3 state. Meaning that is is legal to own a registered full auto gun. And these guns have not been used in crimes in something like 50 years. Our founding fathers had the finest rifles of their day. If there had been assault rifles in their time there is little doubt they would have had them. Now as a law abiding citizen it is my belief that it is my right to own such a rifle if that is my choice.

Just because Demorats do not like assault rifles does not mean they are the evil rifles they portray them to be. These rifles are fun to shoot and I don't know if you ever shoot in rifle matches but there are such a thing and these are the rifles that one uses in these matches. Not every one who owns one of these is the evil person the Demorats would have one believe.

Why as a former member of our armed forces should I or anyone else who has served this country have to pay for a license to own a firearm. This is one of the freedoms that the armed forces of our country fought for. The right to keep and bear arms.

In answer to your question, it is because this state is run like a dictatorship. What ever is voted in by the people is thrown out by some judge. No such thing here to change the law by voting.

Tomahawk 11
05-20-2001, 10:50 PM
Rick,

I see your point to an extent. I just think that a license and small waiting period is of little issue in light of Columbine and the LA Bank robbery and such.

It sounds like you have had some extensive training and have something to lose if you misuse your weapons. That isn't always true for everyone. I am just suggesting that we set up something that has some bite to it when the weapons are misused, not to take away rights/priveliges.

I had to go through training to get my weapons (with the exception of the deer rifle). I totally enjoyed my training and time on the range. I would lose everything I have worked towards in the last 8 years if I screwed up though. I think something like that would help keep people more honest. Nothing is perfect though.

Rick Stephens
05-20-2001, 11:34 PM
Tomahawk 11,

I think that any person who commits a school shooting of any type should be either put in prison for life or given the death penalty. No ifs ands or buts. I also believe that any one caught participating in a drive by shooting should suffer the same fate. I'll bet we would see a lot less of these types of crimes. We need to attack the problem of the individuals commiting the crimes not the guns. The courts are too easy on people who use firearms to commit crimes.

47mack
05-21-2001, 04:29 AM
Originally posted by Tomahawk 11

I see your point to an extent. I just think that a license and small waiting period is of little issue in light of Columbine and the LA Bank robbery and such.



Requiring a license will do NOTHING. Many states can't enforce licensing a vehicle that is still being driven, much less a gun that is stored away in someone's home.

There is no need for gun control. It will not lower the crime rate. It will only punish law abiding citizens.

Putting a license on a gun and its owner will not stop another Columbine from happening. A justice system that will execute these freaks will.

keg in kc
05-21-2001, 06:12 AM
Requiring someone to be licensed to carry a deadly weapon is not punishment by any stretch of the imagination in my humble opinion, no more than requiring someone to be licensed to drive a car.

As a matter of fact, I would go so far as to promote mandatory education in order to get these licenses, including the basics behind firearm use and gun safety. It should be a system exactly like we have to gain a driver's licence (but unlike that system, it needs to be enforced seriously). It should be a one-time deal with state-by-state regulation (not federal...) with periodic renewal. Persons with a legitimate firearms background (military, police, etc.) should be exempt from the training portion, but anyone who is not active duty must possess a license (but, again, exempted from the one-time state-sanctioned training).

I have no desire to take anyone's constituational right to bear firearms away, I simply want to insure that everyone who chooses to exercise this right know how to properly and safely use these firearms, both for his/her protection and mine.

As for the purchasing of individual weapons, if you're licensed and have the cash you can buy/own whatever you like as far as I'm concerned. Concerning the registration of individual weapons, I'm divided on this and haven't really come to a personal decision on that yet.

I'm sure folks will have tons of problems with my licensing ideas, but as far as I'm concerned if you're too lazy to be "inconvenienced" by a few hours of training to insure you know how to handle the weapon safely you shouldn't have it in the first place. We're not talking about toys here, and we're not talking about something that should be taken non-chalantly.

Just my humble opinion, and something I frankly don't forsee ever happening.

Rausch
05-21-2001, 06:14 AM
I know this is quite the tired and over used argument, but isn't the problem the poor messed up kids USING the guns?

I am stealing this, but what videogames was John Wilkes Booth playing? Did Jack the Ripper watch too many A Team episodes? Did Rambo and the Terminator flicks cause Hitler to go Nazi?

NO...Some people got problems, and in today's society, less people care. Everyone has their own thing going on. I just thank God that between wrestling practice, tournaments, homework, school, running, lifting weights, working a part time job, doing household duties, having a minimal social life, and hormones; thank the good lord I didn't have some metal illness to push me over that ledge.

Soo much pressure is on kids these days I'm honestly not surprised that a few just snap...And that pressure has increased since the 6 years I've been out of high school.

Guns aren't the problem. Kids, crowded or uncaring school systems, half @$$ parenting, and increased pressure do this. Some psycho zit farm would walk inta' school smashing kids with a George Foreman Grill if that's all that's handy. Problem is us, not the inanimate objects....

47mack
05-21-2001, 06:38 AM
Well said Brad

BowtieGuy
05-21-2001, 07:59 AM
Both I and my wife are proud members of the NRA. And we are also both proud to have and use our concealed weapons permits.

Remember, the only way to protect the first Amendment is by first protecting the Second Amendment.

~Armed and Dangerous...

Rausch
05-21-2001, 08:23 AM
And for the record, I'm NOT an NRA member OR a gun owner.


People who don't know how to properly use or take care of guns(like me :rolleyes: ) shouldn't own them.


So I practice the American way of preventing them from entering my home. IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT, DON'T BUY IT!

Somene has to kill me some deer, I wouldn't know where ta' look or what ta' do when I DID find one!

:D

BowtieGuy
05-21-2001, 08:27 AM
I have a question for those who believe we should license our firearms.

Name a country, that after licensing guns, did not lose the right to own them?

I can name 3 countries, right off the top of my head, that bought into the licensing lie and have lost their right to own handguns and the majority of their other guns too.

Australia, UK, Canada. Just ask the owners there if we should license our guns...

~Armed and Dangerous...

Lightning Rod
05-21-2001, 09:29 AM
If some person shoots, stabbs, bludggons, or runs over a loved one and they die as a result I will not blame the gun, knife, baseball bat or the car. I will not organize a million man march to register Louieville Sluggers. Likewise if I am being robbed and someone carring a firearm saves me I will not send a letter of thanks to Smith & Wesson. All the above are inanamate objects neither good nor bad. If the general public could grasp this one simple subject, maybe just maybe some intellegent discussion could be had in this debate.


Rod- Wondering why apartments are all stuck together, and common sense is anything but common?

bkkcoh
05-21-2001, 10:40 AM
I bet the crime rate in KC goes down for the length of the NRA gathering. ;)

AustinChief
05-21-2001, 11:28 AM
I am an adament supporter of the right to own a gun, and I heavily support allowing concealed handguns... but I DO believe in education. Unfortunately, there are too many people who don't have enough sense to be trusted owning a gun. Texas does a good job with their CHL laws. There is a required course and practical training that everyone must pass to get a license. I REALLY enjoyed the training (although most of it seemed a little obvious) and didn't see it as too much of an infringement on my rights... in leiu of "REQUIRING" training I would instead at least require a test... but the trade off in my opinion would be...
ONCE you have the license... no waiting periods, no extensive paperwork... it would make the process ALOT more streamlined...

AND most importantly... let the final decision rest in the hands of each state. The Constitution guarantees our rights... but the states are allowed to regulate this... as long as they do not DIRECTLY contradict the Constitution.

just my $.02

--Kyle

Rick Stephens
05-21-2001, 02:50 PM
Last week Maryland Gov. Parris Glendening vetoed a bill which would have required K-12 students to receive gun safety training and education. If Glendening had signed it, Maryland would have become the first state in the country to require such training.

But the Gov. didn't sign it instead he chose to veto the bill, because he did not like the provision that allowed educators to bring some students out to gun ranges.


Heaven forbid we should teach our children proper firearm safety. But these same people want to teach sex education in our schools. I believe that all children should be taught proper firearm training because then they will learn to respect a weapon for what it is and what it can do.

Lightning Rod
05-21-2001, 04:50 PM
FWIW OR FYI

1998 United States
Unintentional Injuries and Adverse Effects
Ages 18-65, All Races, Both Sexes
Total Deaths: 56,337
Cause of Death Deaths


MV Traffic 29,525

Poisoning 9,980
Fall 2,961
Drowning/submersion 2,621
Fire/burn 1,561
Transport, other 1,442
Suffocation 1,256
Unspecified 1,241
Other specified and classifiable 1,032
Medical Care, Adverse Effects 938
Natural/environmental 765
Struck by, against 733
Machinery 664
Pedestrian, other 615
Firearm 597

Drug, Adverse Effects 167

To be fair this is accidental deaths not homicides, the accidental deaths are the ones that get the really big press. The leading cuase of deaths in this age group BY FAR is Heart Disease, and Cancer.

BIG_DADDY
05-21-2001, 10:52 PM
RCG,

Great post, I love stats. It takes the BS out of the Topic. 2.5 Million successful defensive gun uses average every year is impressive as well. It's funny how nobody ever talks about that. The good guns bring our society. It's like a taboo subject.

Tomahawk 11
05-21-2001, 11:06 PM
I would totally be for the education in the school system. Seems just like boating safety and driver's education. Going to the range is a blast.

With the training that I had, our range instructor talked to us about when we had kids. He said to fill a gallon milk jug with water and let your kids watch you shoot it. He thought that should teach them the respect.

I have to admit, I have been swayed by some of your opinions (that is abnormal for me). Not that I am going to run out and join the NRA or anything. I just would like to find a way to make it more safe for everyone. I am in no way for disarmin law abiding citizens. As far as felons go SCREW 'EM!

Rick Stephens
05-21-2001, 11:50 PM
Tomahawk11,

I am a strong supporter of the 2nd Amendment. There needs to be an attack on the individuals who commit crimes with firearms and quit blaming guns. I would like to see the penalty for using a firearm in a crime greatly increased.

keg in kc
05-22-2001, 12:30 AM
Just to clarify my own position, having firearms education isn't attacking guns, it's making sure people who have them know how to use them. Guns are blameless inanimate objects, people who commit crimes with them are not.

And I'd be happy if they enforced the laws on the books instead of going further. Maybe make parole a little more difficult with yet another try to focus on rehabilitation over just locking people away and forgetting about them. However, I'm not sure the whole judicial system doesn't need to be addressed. We have a ridiculous number of folks behind bars right now, and it's extremely expensive to keep them all there. This harkens back to the drug discussions we've had on other threads, so there's no real need to cover old ground...