View Full Version : Are you totally satisfied with the Running Backs?
05-19-2001, 10:33 PM
I'm having trouble believing that KC is satified with the Running Backs currently on the roster. Other than Priest Holmes and Tony Richardson, there's very little to be happy about.
Skip Hicks and Antowain Smith are both available. Granted, neither one is a super star, but signing one of them would sure help create some depth.
05-19-2001, 10:38 PM
It's a hard question to answer, because we've got some unknowns there. Moreau hasn't really been given a shot, and we don't know how effective Blaylock can be as a rookie. Could we sign some other guys? Sure. But IMO we'd be better off sticking with the depth we have right now and hoping we don't have any devestating injuries at the RB position, and concentrate the money we don have to spend on the D...
05-19-2001, 10:42 PM
While more depth would always be a good thing, I'm pretty excited about the bunch we have. It's been quite a while since we've had this much running talent in the backfield.
I'm alot more concerned about Trent's knee than the Holmes/T-Rich combo.
05-19-2001, 10:53 PM
No concern about Trent's knee. DV. is being VERY smart about making him wait. I posted this somewhere, but look what happened to Big Mac after his knee surgery. He came back to fast and hard and unfortuntely he has been out 2 months! Now fortunately he will be back in a couple of weeks. (hopefully but looking good).
Thank DV. for protecting Trent's knee problem and don't worry. He is going to be GREAT this season.;)
The Bad Guy
05-19-2001, 11:00 PM
I have no concerns about the depth we have at tailback.
You only need serious depth at tailback if you plan to use that worthless committee approach, which for the first time in the last 11 years we are finally out of.
A majority of the top teams in the league like the Colts, Titans, and Bucs have virtually no depth behind their starters, but that has never posted a real problem.
Holmes has been relatively injury free for most of his career, and Richardson would be the likely replacement should something happen.
Derrick Blaylock is a real wild card here as a backup. I think he could emerge as our backup with Cloud bringing up the rear because of his special teams play.
I think you could see Moreau spend a majority of the year on the deactive list.
Regardless, this is the best our RB position has looked since Marcus retired.
05-19-2001, 11:14 PM
TK - I hope you're right about Trent. Would rather have him wait than rush back and screw it up all over again.
05-19-2001, 11:16 PM
So why are we keeping Moreau in the first place??? If you think he is going to be on the inactive list most of the year, why would we spend the money to keep someone like him?:confused:
Actually, from my opinion he isn't that bad of a player. But again, why keep someone that can't play and pay him?
The Bad Guy
05-19-2001, 11:55 PM
I think Moreau would have value to the Chiefs, but only in an injury situation which is why he would be deactivated on gameday.
The Chiefs will not keep more than 5 RB's active for any game. I figure Holmes, Richardson, Blaylock, Cloud and Layne will be active.
That leaves Moreau as the odd man out, but you need insurance on your roster, and thats why he would be there.
When I say decative list, I mean he wouldn't make the gameday roster.
I could be completely wrong, it's just my hunch about Moreau.
He looked very tenative last year running into holes. But that all could change this year.
05-20-2001, 12:19 AM
You could be right. If Moreau does what DV. is having them do then the weight will drop or he will.
05-20-2001, 12:20 AM
You think so Frank? My hunch is that Cloud is gonna go the way of Shehee and Moreau is going to be kept. Guess we'll have to wait until training camp...
05-20-2001, 12:33 AM
I can't say I'm satisfied with all of our backs, but there's nothing that Smith or Hicks offer that makes me want to go out and sign them. They're nothing but journeymen back up material. We've had our fill of those types in KC to last into the next century.
keg in kc
05-20-2001, 12:46 AM
Cloud is history, not Moreau. As for the depth, I don't think there's anyone available who would be a significant upgrade from what's already here, so I see no reason to sign anyone. Actually, I'm feeling much better about the RB situation now than I was last season, as much because of the change in coaching philosophy as for any other reason.
05-20-2001, 01:23 AM
Blaylock is a STUD. This guy should get his chance.
05-20-2001, 04:35 AM
I'm happy with Holmes and T-Rich, but I think we could use some depth in our backups...
Sorry guys, but Moreau WILL be staying. Cloud has had 2 seasons to prove his worth, and he hasn't proved squat!
As for Moreau looking tenative? Not sure what you were watching but everytime I saw Moreau he was very deleberate, and hit the right holes the majority of the time. Remember he was a rookie last year.
I'll bet good money not only will he stay, but he will see some significant gametime.
The running back situation in KC is good! Plenty of new guys to evaluate. I don't think we know what we have now, no need to add to the list.
IMO the group of guys that we have now could possibly produce a premier running back in the new offensive scheme. Add to that a competent coaching staff and I am pretty pumped!
of course I get pumped every year
05-20-2001, 04:04 PM
We haven't had this much talent at the running back position in a long while. Priest Holmes will be a very solid preformer this season, and if given half a chance, will gain over 1,000 yards this season...in my humble opinion. Tony Richardson will be a load to deal with coming from a one back set. Richardson and Holmes will make a great duo, with Holmes heading it up. If we add another veteran to the mix, all it does is negate the learning of our rookies, and push closer to controvercy, and RBBC again.
05-20-2001, 08:57 PM
I think that (of course) DV wants one guy to carry the load, whether that be Holmes, TRich, or Blaylock or whoever, if one of those guys shows that he can carry the load, the others aren't gonna get that much playing time. DV may say now; that he will go with TRich in one back sets, but if Holmes is "the man" as we hope he is, then TRich will not see one carry, unless Holmes needs a breather or we are far ahead and call off the dogs.
hope one of these RBs steps up, and I feel pretty good that Holmes is the man. I also see Holmes getting 20-25 carries a game, and 1,000 yard season.
keg in kc
05-20-2001, 09:15 PM
I would have thought that a month ago, Cody, but every comment I've seen from DV (or anyone else involved with the team for that matter, AS, etc.) since then has indicated that T-Rich will be a part of the offense. They've mentioned a number of times how T-Rich is one of the weapons we have, and since they're mentioning him as a fullback, that would tend to make me think we'll still be seeing two-back sets as well as single back sets, just not in the inane way that they've been used recently in KC. That says to me that Holmes will get 15-20 touches per game, and T-Rich will get the other 5-10. That also lines up with the "80% of the carries" that Holmes says he was promised.
05-20-2001, 09:26 PM
The fans in StL said watch what DV says, he doesn't always do what he says. Of course, that applies to every coach in the NFL, though.
So Kyle...whatever gets the "W!", and as long as we get that I won't care how many backs they use.
hungry for a Super Bowl victory
05-20-2001, 09:37 PM
I think we will only be running about 45% of the time. And must of those will be by Holmes. T-Rich will mainly be used as short yardage and the passing attack. IMO he we also be used as a breather for Holmes. This type of offense is not fullback freindly other than goal line and real short yardage. Baylock, Cloud and whoever will be used in special teams, other two getting hurt or if we have huge leads. :cool:
05-20-2001, 09:49 PM
I have really high hopes for Blaylock. I think/hope he can be our RBOTF.
thinks he could/is (hopefully) be the perfect RB for this offense, down the road
keg in kc
05-20-2001, 09:53 PM
It's not just DV, Cody, it's Al Saunders too. You can hardly hear or read an interview from either one of them without hearing Tony Richardson's name mentioned (as well as the fullback position).
Like wolfpack said, short yardage and receiving (although Holmes is a very good receiver as well) will get T-Rich plenty of carries, and I believe we'll also see both of them used in the passing game. I disagree, however, that "this type of offense is not fullback freindly" because we just don't have enough information at our disposal to say that. We're using some of St. Louis' playbook obviously, but it looks to me like our personnel our would dictate differences, not the least of which is the use of the tight end, and, possibly the fullback...
(Note, btw, in my previous post I said "touches" and not "carries" - I think between the two of them they will get around 30-35 touches per game, with at least 10 of those being receptions divided between the two)
05-20-2001, 09:58 PM
Good point, Kyle.
Whether its 1 or 2 RBs...just get the win.
can't wait for the season to start!
05-20-2001, 10:09 PM
I was against the Priest Holmes signing the moment I heard about it. I'm still not convinced he's anything more than a stopgap, but since he's wearing Chief's Red, I'll support him.
I've had the opportunity to watch him the past three years here in Baltimore and I'm still not sold on his abilities. He had the one good year, then couldn't win the job back from Rhett, then couldn't win the job from the rookie Lewis.
Maybe he'll prove me wrong.
I WANT him to prove me wrong.
I'm just not holding my breath.
keg in kc
05-20-2001, 10:17 PM
I always thought using Holmes in the power oriented system that Baltimore uses (most of the time...) was kind of like trying to force the square peg into the round hole. While he's not small, exactly, he's never struck me as being a bruising up-the-gut guy that strikes fear in the hearts of opposing backers and d-backs, either. I think he would have been out of place here before now, but I also thinks he fits what the team needs right now, both in terms of skill, and, maybe more importantly leadership/personality. I hold the coaching staff largely responsible for the uninspired (and uninspiring) heartless product we had on the field last season, but I really think we may have been short on leadership from the players' side as well. It's hard for me to find fault with completely team-oriented players like Holmes as long as he finds a way to contribute on the field as well.
I think of him as the anti-Chester...
05-20-2001, 10:23 PM
Tony Richardson, in my opinion will shine in the new offensive scheme...Holmes will lead the team tho, I beleive he can be extremely good for us. Blaylock I feel.....was a great aquisition. As for the others, I hope they can all prove themselves and step up in the coming season.
05-21-2001, 08:41 AM
While I am very hopeful that we plucked a great late round RB in Blaylock, let's not make him the 2001 version of Brian Shay.
There were some on this board that predicted Shay would be a starting RB with 1000 yds before he touched a ball in KC.
05-21-2001, 09:56 AM
I have to agree with you...I made that same point about Holmes on this board about a month ago...Not only was he unable to clearly beat out a journeyman E. Rhett but he struggled to convince the coaches he offered more than Jay Graham...Jay Graham wasn't even able to stick on Memphis' XFL roster.
I have read stories about him and he appears to be a really good guy. I hope he ends up in the Pro Bowl for our sake but I have a feeling that he won't be taking many carries away from TRich.
05-21-2001, 10:05 AM
Priest Holmes BELONGS in KC...it's ironic...
The only reason Priest couldn't beat those guys out is because they were using him like a 250-lb back...pound it in the middle, pound it in the middle...it was like Martyball...
He's not suited for that, he's much better suited for what he'll be doing here.
I'm sure we'll all be pleasantly surprised this coming fall, when Priest Homes shows what he's truly capable of...
05-21-2001, 10:10 AM
That's not completely true...I remember having him on my Fantasy team a couple years ago and he caught 13 passes in one game....
05-21-2001, 10:20 AM
Holmes started in '98 for Baltimore after Rhett went down with an injury. He gained 1088 yards on 233 carries (4.3 y/p/c) and scored 7 times. He also had 43 receptions for 260 yards.
Rhett returned as starter the following season - his salary dictated the return. Priest only participated in 8 games that year - even though Rhett SUCKED. Priest averaged nearly <i>six</i> y/p/c in '99.
In 2000, Priest was slotted to start by Billick. He was injured early, and replaced by rookie Jamal Lewis. Lewis stepped up big-time and Priest was no longer in the running for starter.
Priest Holmes is a solid back who does <i>everything</i> well - but exceeds in no one area. He can catch, block, run, juke and lower his shoulder when necessary. He is ideally suited for this offensive system - lots of flare passes, screens, counter treys, draws and traps. He is NOT suited for the power game - that system requires larger bruising backs like Eddie George.
By combining Holmes with TRich in a spilt two-back ('Pro Style') offensive set, our offense becomes very unpredictable. We can throw to either starting wide-out, to our all-pro TE Gonzales, to <i>either</i> RB, or run. We can do anything at any time - and that is the point: throw off a defense's timing, and scoring becomes rather easy.
05-21-2001, 10:24 AM
T-Rich and Moreau are good power backs, up the gut. the trouble with past off-coordinators is that they wanted them to run outside. their to big for that. maybe now with Holmes and Baylock we can do that, both of them are to small for up the gut all the time. spread out the wr`s and let Holmes and Baylock take it outside. don't need fullbacks for that. sorry but if you look around the league fullbacks are a dying breed. it will depend on who catches the ball better Cloud or Moreau on who they keep.
05-21-2001, 10:26 AM
Obviously...but what he did in Baltimore was catch dump-off passes in the flat, like TRich did last year...Priest was used in Baltimore much like Donnell Bennett was here...we saw how successful that was...
He'll be catching the ball downfield more often in KC...
05-21-2001, 10:29 AM
Moreau is no longer a 'power back'. He has shed at least 10-15 lbs... he looks lean and fast now.
TRich has enough speed to hit the corner - he is exceedingly fast for a big man. A few years ago, TRich was the second fastest player on the KC roster - trailing only Joe Horn (track star).
Cloud will be cut. He is neither fast nor powerful. Perhaps an east coast team will sign him - remembering his performance at BC.
Blaylock = pure speed.
Layne = power and very good hands.
I like our RB corps... we have solid starters and solid reserves. I have no doubts: our offense will be explosive this season!
05-21-2001, 10:32 AM
I like our overall talent in the backfield but the more I listen to DV, the more it sounds like we are going to be right back into that RBBCC horse $hit....He orginally said that was dead but then after mini camp he is talking like Holmes and TRich will be spliting the carries.
05-21-2001, 10:35 AM
nap - I'm not surprised. TRich is a solid back - very fast and capable; especially for a man of his size. You HAVE to get a guy like that involved in the offense.
05-21-2001, 10:40 AM
I agree that TRich should be involved...He is a good back...He is the reason that I thought it was a great idea to draft Morgan and not spend the 12th pick on a RB...But to be honest I would rather have TRich as the feature back and Holmes as just a 3rd down back...For that matter I would rather Holmes be the feature back than to have the two splitting up the carries...We have seen far too many times how detrimental it is to the running game when you don't let a RB get in a rhythm.
05-21-2001, 10:48 AM
nap - I foresee a lot of 2-back sets... split to either side of the QB. With 2 WR and Gonzo, we become very hard to defend.
On single-back sets, <i>either</i> Holmes or TRich can be used. That's one of the things most KC fans know least about Holmes: he is a damn good pass-blocker.
05-21-2001, 10:53 AM
Having two good backs playing together always sounds great on paper, but it rarely works well...ie H.Walker/T.Dorsett & M.Allen/Bo Jackson.
05-21-2001, 11:01 AM
nap - true, but I don't see <i>either</i> of these guys in the same league as the ones you mention! Holmes and TRich are solid, but not all-world. I see them as complimentary: Holmes = shifty, good speed, good hands; Richardson = powerful, good speed, good hands.
Holmes will receive the majority of the carries and acts as HB. TRich will lead-block or distract(misdirect) by going into a pattern; he'll get carries traditionally designed for FB: off-tackle 'blasts' and quick-hitters. In other words, a traditional HB/FB symbiosis. Difference: our FB has the speed to be a HB, and our HB has the pass-blocking ability to protect in single-back sets.
05-21-2001, 11:07 AM
Dick ForMeal says that TRich will probably be used as the primary back in the one back sets which Saunders will be using one back sets over half the time....
Which means that this will play out to being a RBBC approach...
05-21-2001, 11:24 AM
We will not be a RBBC.
Last year we had Bennett, Anders, Moreau, TRich, Cloud. Each game we would start someone else. Each week we would hear about how they were going to Shuffle them around and try a new starter the next week. Then, during the game they would seem to have a set rotation, regardless of who was running well. Put in Anders for an 8-yard run, then pull him right back out.
This year we will have PHolmes, TRich as the starters. Blaylock and Moreau may see a little action. I would expect there will be less of a carousel though. If a RB is playing well, I think our new staff has there head on straight enough to leave them in there.
The backfield of PHolmes AND TRich (while it will probably only occur rarely or near the goal-line) is a very potent backfield.
Point is, even if there is a stench of RBBC, it will have a very different look. Our RBBC was terrible due to bad coaching decisions. I remember my frustration each time a RB had a long run and he was rewarded by being sat down on the bench until he was cold enough to go back in.
05-21-2001, 11:31 AM
Well put, Sunshine.
I see our RB philosophy in the same light: Holmes = HB, TRich = FB. These guys start <i>every game</i> at their respective positions. BOTH will get carries and receptions.
Layne and Blaylock/Moreau will play mostly on Special Teams - may see some action late in blow-out games.
05-21-2001, 11:35 AM
i agree with sunshinechief, goalline maybe real short yardage is all you wil see of a two back set. if Holmes runs and catches the ball good T-Rich may see less and less playing time. good backs cant be pulled everyother down, they have to get the feel for the defense and offense. they didnt spend big bucks for Holmes to sit the bench:cool:
Clint in Wichita
05-21-2001, 11:42 AM
I hope the roster looks like this on opeing day:
I still can't believe Toombs wasn't drafted simply because he worked out at 280 instead of his usual 260. He was the #1 rated FB in the draft by almost every analyst in the nation. This guy's a freaking animal. If you can find video clips of this guy, check them out. He destroys would-be tacklers.
If KC didn't have TRich, he'd be the starter in week 1 IMO.
05-21-2001, 11:45 AM
We didn't spend 'big bucks' on Holmes- his contract is roughly equivalent to TRich's.
I DO see us employing a split-back set quite a bit more than just at the goalline - simply because it causes so many mis-matches. We have TWO fast RBS with very good hands, the best TE in the league, one of the best WRs in the league (especially at gaining y/a/c) in DA, and an exciting young guy in Morris. With that lineup, we can hit at any range: deep, across the middle (medium), or in the flats/screens (short). When a defense has to be wary of an attack at any depth, from any direction, AND concentrate on stopping the run at the same time, the offense gains the advantage - because it <i>dictates</i> the pace of the game.
We can drop one back -<i>either of them</i>- and add another TE or WR at any time; making this offense even more confusing to the opposing D.
Clint - Toombs is NOT a member of the KC Chiefs roster.
Clint in Wichita
05-21-2001, 11:52 AM
A couple weeks ago KFFL reported that Toombs had been signed. Did they ever say otherwise?
If he's not on the roster, he should be.
05-21-2001, 12:01 PM
He's not listed anywhere. the only report I saw was a tiny blurb in a Texas newspaper article. the story has not been confirmed.
Personally, I don't see a need: TRich is a very good FB, and from what I saw of Layne at mini-camp, we have a more than capable backup!
05-21-2001, 12:32 PM
I have seen post prom people thinking that DV will use the RBBC. Saying that T-Rich and Holmes will split carries. Each NFL team has two backs to split carries. I want Holmes to get 250 to 300 Carries max. That should get us 1000 yards. I also want to seen Richardson get around 150 carries. We have to keep these two guys healthy, and wanting on back to carry the ball 500 times a season is stupid.
05-21-2001, 01:21 PM
Originally posted by Hoover
. We have to keep these two guys healthy, and wanting on back to carry the ball 500 times a season is stupid.
500 carries would be a new NFL record...The top backs carry the ball between 300-400 carries per year...So if Holmes gets 300 carries then it will definitely not be a RBBC but based on what is being said now, I would be pretty surprised if he came close to 300 carries...
05-21-2001, 01:24 PM
You also said you want TRich to get 150 carries...He had 147 last year so if he gets exactly what you want then it will look a lot like last year except the carries that went to Cloud,Moreau,Bennett will go to Holmes...
05-21-2001, 01:37 PM
I see TRich with the same amount of carries as last year. I also see (if healthy) PHolmes getting 225-250 carries. It will depend on who we have at QB. If Green can stay healthy, I think we will see the majority of our offense focused on the short passing game.
Hard to tell what any of this will look like until we see these guys in action. Hell, last year, prior to preseason, I would have guessed that we would be doing a lot of running in 2000:eek:
Whatever happens with the breakdown between "who get's how many carries" is really insignificant. The important thing is to get the right combination of players with the proper rotation who can execute. This is something that our offense has not done consistently for a number of years (really since the departure of Marcus Allen).
05-21-2001, 01:55 PM
We all have our homer glasses on with high hopes and no real clue who our feature back will be....
I'm trying to figure out how this year is any different from the past five or six in terms of the RB position....
05-21-2001, 02:16 PM
I want us to use a full back (T-Rich) and a half back (Holmes) I feel a half back should get twice the work as the full back. That's all I want. I just feel that most Chiefs fans want one back and one back only.
05-21-2001, 02:26 PM
I just want a back getting 15 or more carries per game to be the norm and not the exception....At this point I really don't care who it is....But this $hit of not giving anyone a chance to get a good feel for the flow of the game has worn me out...
05-21-2001, 02:34 PM
My point is that we have had terrible chemistry in the backfield for a number of years now. Until we can see how these guys work together, it will be difficult to decipher who does what and how often. The last several years, RBBC was an absolute horror to watch. No one RB complimented the other.
Sans TRich, you could have substituted one inept uncomplimentary RB for the other. So, rather than be vague, I'll list what I think each does/does not have to see what the on-paper chemistry looks like:
TRich - Excellent power, good burst of speed, good hands, durable, top flight FB. Not a game-breaker, and not IMO an everydown HB.
Moreau - Shows signs of speed, and can break tackles, looks lost sometimes, and doesn't hit the whole with authority. Nice short yardage back. Jury is out as to whether he can catch the ball out of the backfield. Reminds me too much of D. Bennett.
Cloud - Great Speed, but indecisive on what his route is. Can turn the corner, but takes too wide of an arc to do it effectively. If he can find the crease, he has the speed to take it to the house. I don't see how he makes it unless he has an unbelievable preseason.
Holmes - (these comments are based off the games that I have seen Holmes play - around 6) Good speed and nice hands. Appears to have good field vision and an eye for the seam. He is an everydown back, but has a tendency to leave himself exposed to the big hit. Not a gamebreaker, but will beat you with consistency.
Who know's about Layne and Blaylock. Layne will make the team because he was drafted as such. If Blaylock can show an abity to get to the outside and effectively turn the corner, he could make a difference as a situational runner.
Now, as far as chemistry, what you have potentially that is different from last year is the following:
1. Everydown back mixed with one of the best all-around FB's in the league.
2. A potentially durable backup FB in Layne (which we did not have for TRich last year)
3. A speed guy who can hit the corner
4. An offensive Coordinator who can actually gameplan to take advtg of his teams strengths
That said, it looks promising. But like I said, we'll have to see how these guys are ultimately used and how well they play together.
05-21-2001, 02:50 PM
Cloud - Great Speed, but indecisive on what his route is. Can turn the corner, but takes too wide of an arc to do it effectively. If he can find the crease, he has the speed to take it to the house.
I don't know where you got the idea that Cloud has great speed.
Now that Bennett is gone Cloud is the slowest back on the team, even slower than Moreau.
Cloud's never been very fast. That's his problem, he's too slow for his size. If you're going to be as small as he is, you should run in the 4.3's. Cloud runs in the high 4.5's to low 4.6's.
He certainly doesn't have the speed to "take it to the house".
05-21-2001, 03:05 PM
You're right on the Cloud speed thing, that was a stretch:o He has better than avg. speed for his position. But, don't be fooled by the numbers on paper as to who is the faster RB between Cloud and Moreau. Line them both up in their pads and I'll bet Cloud wins that battle 9x out of 10.
Just so ya know, I don't want Cloud on this team, those were just my observations on what I think he brings/doesn't bring.
05-21-2001, 03:17 PM
the faster RB between Cloud and Moreau
Chi - I went to the mini-camp and paid close attention to the Offense: WRs and RBs especially. Moreau lost all of that 'baby fat' - he looks lean, mean, and fast... <i>really</i> fast. I didn't even know it was him - I had to look up #22 on the charts they handed out. Cloud, on the other hand, looked really slow. He plodded through drills and plodded through 7on9s and 11on11s.
05-21-2001, 05:09 PM
I think we will be running three wr`s a lot with a tight end(Tony G) most of the time. only one back to be used then,Holmes if he shows he can do it. if he does do it T-Rich will be just a back up. I know he`s a favorite in kc but one back set is what will probably be run more. three wr`s and Tony G. are more dangerous than a two back set :cool:
keg in kc
05-21-2001, 05:53 PM
You folks thinking of Moreau as a big, slow, bruising back are going to be surprised when he hits the field. While people were talking about converting him to fullback, he went out and lost 15 pounds. He's wearing a halfback number now (22), he's faster, quicker and has better lateral movement than anything I expected after watching last season. He looks like a halfback now, in every sense...
Clint in Wichita
05-21-2001, 08:28 PM
Cloud has slightly above average speed...for a FULLBACK.
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