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percysnow
09-11-2007, 05:06 PM
will give them chance to plea case fri. . see below Donger's post

Skip Towne
09-11-2007, 05:08 PM
repost

Donger
09-11-2007, 05:10 PM
repost

Where?

NFL commissioner Roger Goodell has determined that the New England Patriots violated league rules Sunday when they videotaped defensive signals by the New York Jets' coaches, according to league sources.

NFL security officials confiscated a camera and videotape from Patriots video assistant Matt Estrella on the New England sidelines when it was suspected he was recording the Jets' defensive signals. Sources say the visual evidence confirmed the suspicion.

Goodell is considering severe sanctions, including the possibility of docking the Patriots "multiple draft picks" because it is the competitive violation in the wake of a stern warning to all teams since he became commissioner, the sources said. The Patriots have been suspected in previous incidents.

The Patriots will be allowed an opportunity to present their case by Friday, sources said, most likely via the telephone.

NFL spokesman Greg Aiello said on Tuesday that no official decision has been made and that the club has not been notified.

The league also was reviewing a possible violation into the number of radio frequencies the Patriots were using during Sunday's game, sources said. The team did not have a satisfactory explanation when asked about possible irregularities in its communication setup during the game.

Goodell is expected to have a decision no later than Friday but that is not set in stone.

Bugeater
09-11-2007, 05:10 PM
repost
repostwhore

Molitoth
09-11-2007, 05:40 PM
They should give the Pat's an auto-loss and give the win to the Jets, among other things.

dirk digler
09-11-2007, 05:42 PM
They should give the Pat's an auto-loss and give the win to the Jets, among other things.

Yep.

Strip them of the win and take their 1st and 2nd round draft choices away for next year

Mecca
09-11-2007, 05:43 PM
Ok you guys are going overboard......

BucEyedPea
09-11-2007, 05:44 PM
I am very disappointed they did this.
But the radio frequency issue is still be looked into. I hope they didn't do that too.

KcMizzou
09-11-2007, 05:46 PM
Ok you guys are going overboard......We already know where you stand. You've always been cool with cheating, no matter the method. Steroids, etc..

KCChiefsMan
09-11-2007, 05:50 PM
repostwhore

you gotta really make the point with a bada$$ repost pic

Mecca
09-11-2007, 05:50 PM
Psh, you watch the NFL, I'm sure most of the league isn't on something. I accept it as a fan and I move on...all sorts of shady shit goes on, don't prop it up like it's this great place where bad things and cheating dont happen.

BucEyedPea
09-11-2007, 05:53 PM
September 11th, 2007
A former cameraman speaks
Posted by John Tomase at 3:16 pm

A former Patriots video coordinator e-mailed to say what happened during the Jets game was incredibly common and not a big deal. To wit:

“I read your article with amusement about the Patriots camerman being nabbed at NY. Having worked in the NFL as a video coordinator with both the Pats and the Carolina Panthers, I can tell you this happens all the time. I was often asked by coaches to film opponents, usually during pregame warmups. I find it hard to believe that the Pats would be so brazen with it. We often had cameras hooked up to monitors that the coaches would watch in the booth. I never actually recorded anything, so as not to leave evidence! And I can guarantee you the Jets and everybody else are doing it too.”

HemiEd
09-11-2007, 05:54 PM
I am very disappointed they did this.
But the radio frequency issue is still be looked into. I hope they didn't do that too.

Has anyone ever looked into the last two minutes of the Chiefs playoff loss to the Bronco's in '98? Elvis said his helmet was shrieking with a squealing noise. It was then quietly forgotten. I have always wondered if the Bronco's didn't jam his helmet with radio noise.

BucEyedPea
09-11-2007, 05:56 PM
I don't know. I didn't watch football then.

I have read a book by a former player saying the teams use spies and other things.

Mecca
09-11-2007, 05:58 PM
It's the league man if you don't think teams do shit like this all the time...

It's basically the same as acting like Merriman is the only guy doing roids.

CHIEF4EVER
09-11-2007, 06:00 PM
Psh, you watch the NFL, I'm sure most of the league isn't on something. I accept it as a fan and I move on...all sorts of shady shit goes on, don't prop it up like it's this great place where bad things and cheating dont happen.

Leave it to you to be Mr Contrary. Why bother to have rules in your world? Just let everyone cheat as much as they want. I suppose that explains your USC fandom though......:hmmm:

orange
09-11-2007, 06:02 PM
Has anyone ever looked into the last two minutes of the Chiefs playoff loss to the Bronco's in '98? Elvis said his helmet was shrieking with a squealing noise. It was then quietly forgotten. I have always wondered if the Bronco's didn't jam his helmet with radio noise.

It was in YOUR stadium, dude. Damn, that Shanahan is more powerful than even I thought!

Bill S Preston
09-11-2007, 06:02 PM
It's the league man if you don't think teams do shit like this all the time...

It's basically the same as acting like "roidman" "roidman" Merriman is the only guy doing roids.



Who gives a **** whether or not you think anyone else is doing it? It only matters if you get caught. You can't get caught cheating, and then holler and scream about everyone else doing the same thing. If everyone else is doing the same thing, how come only the Patriots got targeted by the competition committee and other teams throughout the league?

Cochise
09-11-2007, 06:05 PM
We already know where you stand. You've always been cool with cheating, no matter the method. Steroids, etc..

I have never heard Mecca say that anything related to sports was wrong.

CHIEF4EVER
09-11-2007, 06:06 PM
Has anyone ever looked into the last two minutes of the Chiefs playoff loss to the Bronco's in '98? Elvis said his helmet was shrieking with a squealing noise. It was then quietly forgotten. I have always wondered if the Bronco's didn't jam his helmet with radio noise.

That wasn't radio noise. He forgot to get with Tom Cruise during the pregame warmups to expel the thetan build-up.

Mecca
09-11-2007, 06:10 PM
Leave it to you to be Mr Contrary. Why bother to have rules in your world? Just let everyone cheat as much as they want. I suppose that explains your USC fandom though......:hmmm:

Ah and it reverts to USC, what jealous because they're good?

Mr. Flopnuts
09-11-2007, 06:10 PM
Psh, you watch the NFL, I'm sure most of the league isn't on something. I accept it as a fan and I move on...all sorts of shady shit goes on, don't prop it up like it's this great place where bad things and cheating dont happen.



Is there 1 single, solitary thing in your life that is positive? I seriously wonder if you don't post with one hand, and a knife to your typing wrist with the other sometimes.

HemiEd
09-11-2007, 06:11 PM
It was in YOUR stadium, dude. Damn, that Shanahan is more powerful than even I thought!
Ehh, radio transmitters are portable. Heck, that was a common practice all the way back to WWII.

Thig Lyfe
09-11-2007, 06:12 PM
They should kill the firstborn son of everybody in the Patriots organization.

Mecca
09-11-2007, 06:13 PM
Is there 1 single, solitary thing in your life that is positive? I seriously wonder if you don't post with one hand, and a knife to your typing wrist with the other sometimes.

I just accept things for what they are, anyone with a pair of eyes knows there's rampant roid/HGH and anything else you can think of abuse going on in the NFL.

That teams try to gain advantages anyway they can, it isn't some revelation that's why I don't have some shocked feeling. If you are a fan you either accept it or if you hate it that much don't support it anymore.

Mr. Flopnuts
09-11-2007, 06:15 PM
I just accept things for what they are, anyone with a pair of eyes knows there's rampant roid/HGH and anything else you can think of abuse going on in the NFL.

That teams try to gain advantages anyway they can, it isn't some revelation that's why I don't have some shocked feeling. If you are a fan you either accept it or if you hate it that much don't support it anymore.



I think you know I wasn't talking about this 1 post. I am not sure if I have ever heard you optimistic about ANYTHING. Your life, but my previous statement about 1 handed posting still applies.

Adept Havelock
09-11-2007, 06:17 PM
Is there 1 single, solitary thing in your life that is positive? I seriously wonder if you don't post with one hand, and a knife to your typing wrist with the other sometimes.


In a perfect world that knife would slip. Deeply.

Mecca
09-11-2007, 06:17 PM
When the Chiefs give me a reason to be optimistic I will be, I talked total shit on SC when Paul Hackett was our coach. I don't say bad things about them now because they fixed their problems and now are a great team.

When the Chiefs make proper moves and go in the right direction I'll say that. As a fan if the team is being stupid and doing dumbass things you can say that. Being a fan doesn't mean you go into with blind optimism that everything is fine.

Mecca
09-11-2007, 06:18 PM
In a perfect world that knife would slip. Deeply.

You don't like me that much? You wish death upon me, great person you are.

CHIEF4EVER
09-11-2007, 06:31 PM
Ah and it reverts to USC, what jealous because they're good?

deflection Anoun1 diversion (http://www.wordreference.com/definition/diversion), deviation (http://www.wordreference.com/definition/deviation), digression (http://www.wordreference.com/definition/digression), deflection, deflexion (http://www.wordreference.com/definition/deflexion), divagation (http://www.wordreference.com/definition/divagation)
a turning aside (of your course or attention or concern); "a diversion from the main highway"; "a digression into irrelevant details"; "a deflection from his goal" Category Tree: act (http://www.wordreference.com/definition/act); human action (http://www.wordreference.com/definition/human%5Faction); human activity (http://www.wordreference.com/definition/human%5Factivity) ╚action (http://www.wordreference.com/definition/action) ╚change (http://www.wordreference.com/definition/change) ╚change of direction (http://www.wordreference.com/definition/change%5Fof%5Fdirection); reorientation (http://www.wordreference.com/definition/reorientation) ╚change of course (http://www.wordreference.com/definition/change%5Fof%5Fcourse) ╚turn (http://www.wordreference.com/definition/turn); turning (http://www.wordreference.com/definition/turning) ╚diversion (http://www.wordreference.com/definition/diversion), deviation (http://www.wordreference.com/definition/deviation), digression (http://www.wordreference.com/definition/digression), deflection, deflexion (http://www.wordreference.com/definition/deflexion), divagation (http://www.wordreference.com/definition/divagation) ╚red herring (http://www.wordreference.com/definition/red%5Fherring)







2 deflection, deflexion (http://www.wordreference.com/definition/deflexion), bending (http://www.wordreference.com/definition/bending)
the property of being bent or deflected Category Tree: abstraction (http://www.wordreference.com/definition/abstraction) ╚attribute (http://www.wordreference.com/definition/attribute) ╚property (http://www.wordreference.com/definition/property) ╚physical property (http://www.wordreference.com/definition/physical%5Fproperty) ╚deflection, deflexion (http://www.wordreference.com/definition/deflexion), bending (http://www.wordreference.com/definition/bending) ╚refractivity (http://www.wordreference.com/definition/refractivity); refractiveness (http://www.wordreference.com/definition/refractiveness)
╚windage (http://www.wordreference.com/definition/windage); wind deflection (http://www.wordreference.com/definition/wind%5Fdeflection)





3 deflection, deflexion (http://www.wordreference.com/definition/deflexion)
the movement of the pointer or pen of a measuring instrument from its zero position Category Tree: event (http://www.wordreference.com/definition/event) ╚happening (http://www.wordreference.com/definition/happening); occurrence (http://www.wordreference.com/definition/occurrence); natural event (http://www.wordreference.com/definition/natural%5Fevent) ╚movement (http://www.wordreference.com/definition/movement); motion (http://www.wordreference.com/definition/motion) ╚deflection, deflexion (http://www.wordreference.com/definition/deflexion)



4 deflection, deflexion (http://www.wordreference.com/definition/deflexion), refraction (http://www.wordreference.com/definition/refraction)
the amount by which a propagating wave is bent Category Tree: event (http://www.wordreference.com/definition/event) ╚happening (http://www.wordreference.com/definition/happening); occurrence (http://www.wordreference.com/definition/occurrence); natural event (http://www.wordreference.com/definition/natural%5Fevent) ╚movement (http://www.wordreference.com/definition/movement); motion (http://www.wordreference.com/definition/motion) ╚bending (http://www.wordreference.com/definition/bending); bend (http://www.wordreference.com/definition/bend) ╚deflection, deflexion (http://www.wordreference.com/definition/deflexion), refraction (http://www.wordreference.com/definition/refraction)




5 deflection, warp (http://www.wordreference.com/definition/warp)
a twist or aberration; especially a perverse or abnormal way of judging or acting Category Tree: state (http://www.wordreference.com/definition/state) ╚condition (http://www.wordreference.com/definition/condition); status (http://www.wordreference.com/definition/status) ╚abnormality (http://www.wordreference.com/definition/abnormality); abnormalcy (http://www.wordreference.com/definition/abnormalcy); abnormal condition (http://www.wordreference.com/definition/abnormal%5Fcondition) ╚aberrance (http://www.wordreference.com/definition/aberrance); aberrancy (http://www.wordreference.com/definition/aberrancy); aberration (http://www.wordreference.com/definition/aberration); deviance (http://www.wordreference.com/definition/deviance) ╚deflection, warp (http://www.wordreference.com/definition/warp)

Rain Man
09-11-2007, 06:44 PM
Ok you guys are going overboard......

If the Patriots really did this, they should remove Thurman Thomas from the Hall of Fame.

CHIEF4EVER
09-11-2007, 06:48 PM
If the Patriots really did this, they should remove Thurman Thomas from the Hall of Fame.

LMAO

dirk digler
09-11-2007, 06:54 PM
http://www.profootballtalk.com/rumormill.htm

The situation regarding the New England Patriots and the allegations/proof that they have stolen defensive signals is unofficially getting weirder.

The signal stealing flap is relevant only to defensive signals, since all offensive calls are made by radio.

But we're now aware of suspicions/rumors regarding efforts by the Pats to get a leg up as to opposing offenses. Specifically, we're told that it's believed that, during the 2006 season, the Patriots were putting microphones on defensive linemen in order to capture the offensive line calls and the quarterback audibles.

Then, the audio and the video of the game would be matched up, and the defensive players would be given the code at halftime.

HemiEd
09-11-2007, 06:58 PM
If the Patriots really did this, they should remove Thurman Thomas from the Hall of Fame.
ROFL

HemiEd
09-11-2007, 07:00 PM
Holy cow, that is serious. They should sick Pit Bulls on all of them Patriots, including BB.

Ari Chi3fs
09-11-2007, 07:12 PM
They should definitely take the draft picks from New England, and give them to Kansas City, since we are handicapped with Carl.

'Hamas' Jenkins
09-11-2007, 07:15 PM
If all of this stuff is true, they need to forfeit yesterday's game, and all of their television revenue for this year.

The Timberwolves lost several #1 draft picks for tampering with Joe Smith. This is every bit as bad, if not worse.

A couple of forfeited #1's might go a long way towards curtailing this hog shit.

HemiEd
09-11-2007, 07:24 PM
If all of this stuff is true, they need to forfeit yesterday's game, and all of their television revenue for this year.

The Timberwolves lost several #1 draft picks for tampering with Joe Smith. This is every bit as bad, if not worse.

A couple of forfeited #1's might go a long way towards curtailing this hog shit.

This is some heavy duty stuff. The NFL didn't really need this.

KcMizzou
09-11-2007, 07:26 PM
This is some heavy duty stuff. The NFL didn't really need this.Not unlike the NBA ref scandal.

Let's be clear though... that last bit of info was from profootballtalk.com.

Not exactly reliable.

tk13
09-11-2007, 07:30 PM
I can't believe they would've planted microphones... somebody would've ratted them out eventually. Especially when they lost a FA defender to another team, he'd give that info up, you'd hope.

Skip Towne
09-11-2007, 07:32 PM
99 years in the electric chair.

Mecca
09-11-2007, 07:34 PM
If all of this stuff is true, they need to forfeit yesterday's game, and all of their television revenue for this year.

The Timberwolves lost several #1 draft picks for tampering with Joe Smith. This is every bit as bad, if not worse.

A couple of forfeited #1's might go a long way towards curtailing this hog shit.

Of course let's not mention that everyone thought the Minnesota penalty was to harsh.

There's no way they take that game away there is no possible way.

KC Tattoo
09-11-2007, 07:36 PM
:hmmm: Is it only the Pats? Or are they the only team to get caught so far?

tk13
09-11-2007, 07:36 PM
On second thought, if they're gonna put a cameraman out there on the sidelines doing illegal things in clear sight of everybody, maybe they would plant microphones. Sure doesn't make Belichick look like too much of a genius there.

HemiEd
09-11-2007, 07:38 PM
Not unlike the NBA ref scandal.

Let's be clear though... that last bit of info was from profootballtalk.com.

Not exactly reliable.

Good point, I hope it is not real.

KcMizzou
09-11-2007, 07:39 PM
I'm gonna go cheat at a high-stakes poker game.

If I get caught, I'll tell them about how "everybody does it".

Surely they'll understand.

dirk digler
09-11-2007, 07:41 PM
If this appears to be true which at this point it does I imagine the commish will make an example out of the Patriots organization.

Mecca
09-11-2007, 07:42 PM
They sure made an example of the Broncos for screwing with the cap....

No one got arrested so watch he won't be nearly as harsh with this.

Thig Lyfe
09-11-2007, 07:43 PM
On second thought, if they're gonna put a cameraman out there on the sidelines doing illegal things in clear sight of everybody, maybe they would plant microphones. Sure doesn't make Belichick look like too much of a genius there.

Maybe he was going the "hidden in plain sight" route.

Bill Parcells
09-11-2007, 07:45 PM
I am very disappointed they did this.
But the radio frequency issue is still be looked into. I hope they didn't do that too.
There 2nd half adjustments are second to none!

KcMizzou
09-11-2007, 07:47 PM
There 2nd half adjustments are second to none!Uncanny!

Rain Man
09-11-2007, 07:48 PM
Is this really that serious? I don't think so. I'd be willing to bet that every team has someone in the stands watching the other team.

Miking up players in the game is likely illegal, but I'm not sure about that. I know there are rules about sending signals in to players, but I'm not sure about gathering data from players.

HemiEd
09-11-2007, 07:48 PM
There 2nd half adjustments are second to none!
Damn that has got to hurt, really. :cuss:

Discuss Thrower
09-11-2007, 07:49 PM
Is this really that serious? I don't think so. I'd be willing to bet that every team has someone in the stands watching the other team.

Miking up players in the game is likely illegal, but I'm not sure about that. I know there are rules about sending signals in to players, but I'm not sure about gathering data from players.

Spirit of the Law VS Letter of the Law... Which one wins?

Spott
09-11-2007, 07:49 PM
Not sure why they would have to cheat. They are far and away a better team than anyone in their division.

Bill Parcells
09-11-2007, 07:53 PM
Jetswiki has been updated.

http://www.jetnation.com/JetsWiki/index.php/Belichick%2C_Bill?jn_website_jnwiki__session=b6d76ac6735546f23846c3734f260a7a

Credit to Panzer

HemiEd
09-11-2007, 07:54 PM
Is this really that serious? I don't think so. I'd be willing to bet that every team has someone in the stands watching the other team.

Miking up players in the game is likely illegal, but I'm not sure about that. I know there are rules about sending signals in to players, but I'm not sure about gathering data from players.
If true, oh hell yes.
Some guy telling them what he saw, is a whole lot different than exact video matched to the audio of play calls.

Oh, and the green dot on the helmet of the QB is the only one supposed to have communications.

KcMizzou
09-11-2007, 07:57 PM
And we thought Broncos with lubed up jerseys were bad...

(still pissed about that) :cuss:

headsnap
09-11-2007, 07:57 PM
http://nflfreaks.com/images/Players/NFLF-Mike_Shannahan_121403.jpg

Why didn't I think of that!!!

http://www.kcchiefs.com/media/staff/herman_edwards.jpg

Think of what?

KcMizzou
09-11-2007, 07:58 PM
ROFL perfect, headsnap.

HemiEd
09-11-2007, 07:59 PM
Jetswiki has been updated.

http://www.jetnation.com/JetsWiki/index.php/Belichick%2C_Bill?jn_website_jnwiki__session=b6d76ac6735546f23846c3734f260a7a

Credit to Panzer


So the Pats are the Bronco's of the AFC East?

dirk digler
09-11-2007, 07:59 PM
They sure made an example of the Broncos for screwing with the cap....

No one got arrested so watch he won't be nearly as harsh with this.

Like I said in the post before yours Goodell is not one to let something like this slide.

I fully expect him to punish the team or the coaches to the max.

Bill Parcells
09-11-2007, 08:02 PM
So the Pats are the Bronco's of the AFC East?
That's about right, but at least Shanahan can dress appropriately, comb his hair and brush his teeth. I'm not so sure about mumbles.

KcMizzou
09-11-2007, 08:03 PM
So the Pats are the Bronco's of the AFC East?All the Donk fans probably love that comparison.

Unfortunately for them, the Pats are clearly the better cheaters.

Bill Parcells
09-11-2007, 08:04 PM
Boy, all the shit's coming out of the wood works now.

ROFL



<object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/cwcWeMubsXY"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/cwcWeMubsXY" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>

Skip Towne
09-11-2007, 08:05 PM
Jetswiki has been updated.

http://www.jetnation.com/JetsWiki/index.php/Belichick%2C_Bill?jn_website_jnwiki__session=b6d76ac6735546f23846c3734f260a7a

Credit to Panzer
Very good. hahahahaha

KcMizzou
09-11-2007, 08:08 PM
Boy, all the shit's coming out of the wood works now.

ROFL



<object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/cwcWeMubsXY"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/cwcWeMubsXY" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>LMAO

"You know who Chad Pennington is? Chad Pennington is Superman!"

headsnap
09-11-2007, 08:18 PM
LMAO

"You know who Chad Pennington is? Chad Pennington is Superman!"

spoken by a man with his jersey on backwards... ROFL

Amnorix
09-11-2007, 08:28 PM
http://www.profootballtalk.com/rumormill.htm

The situation regarding the New England Patriots and the allegations/proof that they have stolen defensive signals is unofficially getting weirder.

The signal stealing flap is relevant only to defensive signals, since all offensive calls are made by radio.

But we're now aware of suspicions/rumors regarding efforts by the Pats to get a leg up as to opposing offenses. Specifically, we're told that it's believed that, during the 2006 season, the Patriots were putting microphones on defensive linemen in order to capture the offensive line calls and the quarterback audibles.

Then, the audio and the video of the game would be matched up, and the defensive players would be given the code at halftime.

Oddly, this would be perfectly legal. We know becuase the Dolphins did this to us. They AUDIO taped Brady and then synched up the video to it or somesuch.

The keys is that the RULE is limited to VIDEO tape, not audio.

The Patriots are under investigation by the NFL on allegations they illegally tried to decipher the Jets' signals with video equipment. Here are two key areas within the NFL's video tape policy as it relates to coaching video:

<LI>Page 105 of the league's Game Operations manual says: "No video recording devices of any kind are permitted to be in use in the coaches' booth, on the field, or in the locker room during the game." It later says: "All video shooting locations must be enclosed on all sides with a roof overhead."

Ray Anderson, the league's head of football operations, sent a memo to head coaches and GMs last September 6 that said: "Video taping of any type, including but not limited to taping of an opponent's offensive or defensive signals, is prohibited on the sidelines, in the coaches' booth, in the locker room, or at any other locations accessible to club staff members during the game."


http://www.boston.com/sports/football/patriots/reiss_pieces/

dirk digler
09-11-2007, 08:45 PM
Oddly, this would be perfectly legal. We know becuase the Dolphins did this to us. They AUDIO taped Brady and then synched up the video to it or somesuch.

The keys is that the RULE is limited to VIDEO tape, not audio.

The Patriots are under investigation by the NFL on allegations they illegally tried to decipher the Jets' signals with video equipment. Here are two key areas within the NFL's video tape policy as it relates to coaching video:

<LI>Page 105 of the league's Game Operations manual says: "No video recording devices of any kind are permitted to be in use in the coaches' booth, on the field, or in the locker room during the game." It later says: "All video shooting locations must be enclosed on all sides with a roof overhead."

Ray Anderson, the league's head of football operations, sent a memo to head coaches and GMs last September 6 that said: "Video taping of any type, including but not limited to taping of an opponent's offensive or defensive signals, is prohibited on the sidelines, in the coaches' booth, in the locker room, or at any other locations accessible to club staff members during the game."


http://www.boston.com/sports/football/patriots/reiss_pieces/

The NFL is not going to allow any team from wearing mics unless it is part of the telecast like ESPN mic'ed up.

In fact the owners rejected the rule to allow defensive players to wear mics in their helmets.

Easy 6
09-11-2007, 09:15 PM
"Bummy" Bill is an inveterate cheat, he's always been that way...persistently lying about injuries, availability etc.

If the NFL is like any other beauracracy, and i'm sure it is, several complaints were lodged before they were investigated & caught, atleast one or 2 times before...ie; they've been at it for awhile.

I hope Goodell slams'em.

Amnorix
09-11-2007, 09:29 PM
The NFL is not going to allow any team from wearing mics unless it is part of the telecast like ESPN mic'ed up.

In fact the owners rejected the rule to allow defensive players to wear mics in their helmets.

I don't have the details, but the Dolphins apparently audio taped Brady calling his offensive signals. And apparently that was ok. Maybe it was done from the sidelines?

It's been referenced, repeatedly, on sports radio today.

Jayhawkerman2001
09-11-2007, 09:35 PM
It was in YOUR stadium, dude. Damn, that Shanahan is more powerful than even I thought!

what does it even matter which stadium the game was in?

Skip Towne
09-11-2007, 09:36 PM
I just heard on the 10 o'clock news that the Pats were likely to be penalized multiple draft pics and possibly even more.

Rain Man
09-11-2007, 09:39 PM
I don't have the details, but the Dolphins apparently audio taped Brady calling his offensive signals. And apparently that was ok. Maybe it was done from the sidelines?

It's been referenced, repeatedly, on sports radio today.


I don't think that counted, because when they played it back, all they heard was a heavenly chorus of angels.

Skip Towne
09-11-2007, 09:40 PM
I don't have the details, but the Dolphins apparently audio taped Brady calling his offensive signals. And apparently that was ok. Maybe it was done from the sidelines?

It's been referenced, repeatedly, on sports radio today.
Damage Control. Nice try.

KcMizzou
09-11-2007, 09:40 PM
I just heard on the 10 o'clock news that the Pats were likely to be penalized multiple draft pics and possibly even more.If it's severe, Mecca will be crushed.

He's a fan of cheating in general. (WWE'? TNA? NFL? NBA? All the same thing...)

KcMizzou
09-11-2007, 09:41 PM
I don't think that counted, because when they played it back, all they heard was a heavenly chorus of angels.LMAO

Score!

a1na2
09-11-2007, 09:43 PM
Has anyone ever looked into the last two minutes of the Chiefs playoff loss to the Bronco's in '98? Elvis said his helmet was shrieking with a squealing noise. It was then quietly forgotten. I have always wondered if the Bronco's didn't jam his helmet with radio noise.

How about taking the receivers out of the helmets? Why can't a team prepare a game plan and have the QB run it as they did in the past?

Having the coaching staff call the plays is nothing more than micro-management. If the coach wants to confer with the QB they need to call a time out. It worked for years, why should it not work now?

dirk digler
09-11-2007, 09:45 PM
I don't have the details, but the Dolphins apparently audio taped Brady calling his offensive signals. And apparently that was ok. Maybe it was done from the sidelines?

It's been referenced, repeatedly, on sports radio today.

Not the same


http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2696227

NFL: Dolphins did no wrong vs. Patriots

By Len Pasquarelli
ESPN.com


Without convening a congressional hearing or hiring an independent counsel to investigate the incident, the NFL has ruled that the Miami Dolphins violated no league rules in the Tapegate affair associated with the team's 21-0 victory over the New England Patriots last Sunday.

Quick Hits
John Clayton
Teams are always trying to steal signs and signals off other teams. That's just football.

• For more of John Clayton's analysis, click here. Insider

The incident spawned considerable attention on Tuesday after some Dolphins players suggested to the Palm Beach (Fla.) Post that the team "purchased" tapes of the New England offense that provided audio of quarterback Tom Brady making audible and line-blocking calls.

Those players strongly hinted that the tapes were critical in preparing for the game and provided the Dolphins inside information about New England's offensive audible system.

"I've never seen [Brady] so flustered," middle linebacker Zach Thomas said.

The league's response? Pretty much a stifled yawn, since there is no rule prohibiting such film study.

"Reaction around the league office was, 'That's football,' " AFC spokesman Steve Alic said.

Patriots coach Bill Belichick, speaking Wednesday at his news conference, doubted that Miami gained an advantage.

"I stand out on that field every day, as do our defensive players -- who are pretty smart players -- and I don't see it," Belichick said. "If I can't pick it up and our players can't pick it up, with what we know and the opportunity to see and work against each other, I have a hard time thinking somebody else [could]."

Even with the contentions of the Miami defenders, there remains uncertainty over just what measures the Dolphins took in their surveillance of the New England offense. While players said the team "purchased" the tape, coach Nick Saban said his club simply watched TV replays of Brady in an attempt to decipher the calls.

One Miami defender said it is common practice to take a TV tape of a game and enhance the volume to try to hear the quarterback's signals. The so-called "coaching" tapes supplied by the league to teams do not include audio. Television tapes often capture a quarterback's calls at the line of scrimmage because of the parabolic microphones used on the sideline.

Despite the attention garnered by the story, most league observers dismissed the importance of whatever the Dolphins did and chose to attribute the shutout victory to superior execution.

The Dolphins limited the Patriots to 12 first downs and 189 yards and held Brady to 78 passing yards and a passer rating of 55.1 while sacking him four times.

Mecca
09-11-2007, 09:46 PM
I don't even like the Patriots but I do find it funny that as soon as a team becomes good for a long time people hate them.

Just like everyones irrational hate for Manning around here even though he's probably the greatest QB of our lifetimes.

boogblaster
09-11-2007, 09:47 PM
Pats cheating is like saying the Bush election & reelection was fixed ...

dirk digler
09-11-2007, 09:48 PM
I don't even like the Patriots but I do find it funny that as soon as a team becomes good for a long time people hate them.

Just like everyones irrational hate for Manning around here even though he's probably the greatest QB of our lifetimes.

That is just human nature.

After awhile people just want somebody new to win.

It has happened to all of the great dynasties in sports

a1na2
09-11-2007, 09:48 PM
I don't even like the Patriots but I do find it funny that as soon as a team becomes good for a long time people hate them.

Just like everyones irrational hate for Manning around here even though he's probably the greatest QB of our lifetimes.


If that is the case, bring him to KC and we can see just how great he really is. I think your belief about Manning is misguided.

Jayhawkerman2001
09-11-2007, 09:50 PM
the nice thing about all this is that they were playing the jets, another east coast team. If they were playing us, you all know how this would all go down.

KcMizzou
09-11-2007, 09:52 PM
That is just human nature.

After awhile people just want somebody new to win.

It has happened to all of the great dynasties in sportsExactly.

If you've never felt an irrational hatred toward someone in sports, I don't know that you truely a fan of a team.

Obviously, I don't mean real "hate"... but if you're a fan of one team, other team's good players will frustrate you, and piss you off.

Mecca likes to pretend he's above it all. But I bet deep down, there are a few players that annoy the hell out of him.

(or he could just be here to be a contrarian... going against the grain at every step, just to cause a fuss)

dirk digler
09-11-2007, 09:52 PM
If that is the case, bring him to KC and we can see just how great he really is. I think your belief about Manning is misguided.

You can't be serious? Manning is a sure-fire HOF and will go down as one of the greats at that position.

Mecca
09-11-2007, 09:53 PM
If that is the case, bring him to KC and we can see just how great he really is. I think your belief about Manning is misguided.

You don't believe Peyton Manning is the greatest QB of our lifetimes? Really have you seen the guy and how he completely controls the game? What he does for that team?

The Colts will be a contender every single year as long as that guy is under center, everything about him. You should really appreciate him, there'll never be another one like that.

KcMizzou
09-11-2007, 09:54 PM
the nice thing about all this is that they were playing the jets, another east coast team. If they were playing us, you all know how this would all go down.*crickets*

Jayhawkerman2001
09-11-2007, 09:54 PM
You can't be serious? Manning is a sure-fire HOF and will go down as one of the greats at that position.

while i definitely believe he is probably one of the best quarterbacks to ever play the game, its Harrison and Wayne that have made him probably the best to ever

pikesome
09-11-2007, 09:55 PM
I don't even like the Patriots but I do find it funny that as soon as a team becomes good for a long time people hate them.

Just like everyones irrational hate for Manning around here even though he's probably the greatest QB of our lifetimes.

I rode the "Manning sucks" bandwagon like a man possessed for a few years. My feelings were always that we were constantly told how great he was only to watch that greatness wilt when it was needed. I don't like be force-fed greatness much like the line on how great Vick was. This last year though the Colts showed they could do it even when Manning wasn't on (the first 2 playoff games weren't Manning's best) and that he could step up and get it done. Showing greatness eases a lot of negative feelings about someone being overhyped.

dirk digler
09-11-2007, 09:55 PM
Exactly.

If you've never felt an irrational hatred toward someone in sports, I don't know that you truely a fan of a team.

Obviously, I don't mean real "hate"... but if you're a fan of one team, other team's good players will frustrate you, and piss you off.

Mecca likes to pretend he's above it all. But I bet deep down, there are a few players that annoy the hell out of him.

Yep.

The only player though that I haven't noticed getting alot of hate is Tiger Woods or maybe I just don't pay that much attention to golf. Jordan didn't get alot of hate either.

Jayhawkerman2001
09-11-2007, 09:55 PM
*crickets*

?

Mecca
09-11-2007, 09:55 PM
Exactly.

If you've never felt an irrational hatred toward someone in sports, I don't know that you truely a fan of a team.

Obviously, I don't mean real "hate"... but if you're a fan of one team, other team's good players will frustrate you, and piss you off.

Mecca likes to pretend he's above it all. But I bet deep down, there are a few players that annoy the hell out of him.

(or he could just be here to be a contrarian... going against the grain at every step, just to cause a fuss)

I don't like Tom Brady at all because of the constant ESPN shit and Phil Simms blowing him every chance he gets but......I respect the hell out of the guy so I won't insult him because he is a great player.

It's not even really his fault I don't like him to be honest. I've always liked Manning though, he's a pleasure to watch the way he controls the game.

Hell I like Terrell Owens because I think he's funny.

KcMizzou
09-11-2007, 09:55 PM
You don't believe Peyton Manning is the greatest QB of our lifetimes? Really have you seen the guy and how he completely controls the game? What he does for that team?

The Colts will be a contender every single year as long as that guy is under center, everything about him. You should really appreciate him, there'll never be another one like that.I don't disagree with you there.

I'm old enough to have seen Marino, Elway, a bit of Montana... Manning's right up there.

a1na2
09-11-2007, 09:56 PM
You can't be serious? Manning is a sure-fire HOF and will go down as one of the greats at that position.

I didn't say that he wouldn't be in the HOF nor did I say he wasn't one of the greatest. I commented that you could see just how good he is by putting him in the KC offense.

KcMizzou
09-11-2007, 09:58 PM
Hell I like Terrell Owens because I think he's funny.I feel the same way about Chad Johnson.

Mecca
09-11-2007, 09:58 PM
Manning would make the Chiefs offense 1000 times better, guy understands the game better than any other player ever, it's like having your OC line up as the QB.

dirk digler
09-11-2007, 09:58 PM
while i definitely believe he is probably one of the best quarterbacks to ever play the game, its Harrison and Wayne that have made him probably the best to ever

Or he made them great

Did Rice and Taylor make Montana great or was it the other way around?

What about Stallworth and Swann?

dirk digler
09-11-2007, 09:59 PM
I didn't say that he wouldn't be in the HOF nor did I say he wasn't one of the greatest. I commented that you could see just how good he is by putting him in the KC offense.

He would instantly make this team a SB contender.

Mecca
09-11-2007, 10:00 PM
I feel the same way about Chad Johnson.

I like him too, I love guys that are entertaining. It annoys me when people act like Owens is some bad dude. He's never been arrested, never done anything like that yet he's treated like he's some criminal and a horrible guy by some.

Like when Randy McMichael a guy who's been arrested for domestic violence acts like Owens is the bad guy there's something wrong. Then the ESPN dudes do the same thing...

When running your mouth is worse to players and people who cover the league than beating your wife that pisses me off.

Jayhawkerman2001
09-11-2007, 10:00 PM
Or he made them great

Did Rice and Taylor make Montana great or was it the other way around?

What about Stallworth and Swann?

good point... Manning to Harrison "You complete me!"

a1na2
09-11-2007, 10:01 PM
You don't believe Peyton Manning is the greatest QB of our lifetimes? Really have you seen the guy and how he completely controls the game? What he does for that team?

The Colts will be a contender every single year as long as that guy is under center, everything about him. You should really appreciate him, there'll never be another one like that.

No, I do not believe he is the greatest QB of my lifetime. I"ve seen Montana play, I watched Johnny Unitas play, I watched Bart Star play. There are plenty of great QB's that have played in the past and what made them great is the fact that they called the games, they knew the plays and knew how to use the plays to their teams advantage.

Being a contender is good for the Colts fans and their franchise. He will get old and his skills will slip. When that happens he will go the route of all other QB's. The team will stop being the force that they seem to be at the moment. How many times did they not get far in the playoffs? Maybe as many as the Chiefs?

He is good, but not the greatest, at least not in my lifetime.

a1na2
09-11-2007, 10:02 PM
He would instantly make this team a SB contender.

Only if you use LSD to enhance your dreams.

dirk digler
09-11-2007, 10:02 PM
I like him too, I love guys that are entertaining. It annoys me when people act like Owens is some bad dude. He's never been arrested, never done anything like that yet he's treated like he's some criminal and a horrible guy by some.

Like when Randy McMichael a guy who's been arrested for domestic violence acts like Owens is the bad guy there's something wrong. Then the ESPN dudes do the same thing...

When running your mouth is worse to players and people who cover the league than beating your wife that pisses me off.

I like Chad Johnson and TO is ok but what happened in Philly with that whole incident made me not like him for awhile. That is largely though the media's fault for talking about him 24x7.

On NFL Network tonight Rod Woodson absolutely HATED Chad Johnson's HOF jacket and thought it was classless.

Guru
09-11-2007, 10:03 PM
http://nflfreaks.com/images/Players/NFLF-Mike_Shannahan_121403.jpg

Why didn't I think of that!!!

http://www.kcchiefs.com/media/staff/herman_edwards.jpg

Think of what?
That is great man. Rep!!! :clap:

dirk digler
09-11-2007, 10:04 PM
Only if you use LSD to enhance your dreams.

Hmm..we were a playoff team with Trent Green and Damon Huard last year.

If we had Manning he would run the O no need for Solari or dumbass Dick Curl so that guarantees us several wins right there.

Mecca
09-11-2007, 10:07 PM
Manning has a rookie LT and it doesn't matter because he is just unreal. His pocket presense his ability to just know the game and know exactly what is coming.

This guy is going to hold every single record ever when he retires, I consider him the greatest I've ever seen.

a1na2
09-11-2007, 10:23 PM
Hmm..we were a playoff team with Trent Green and Damon Huard last year.

If we had Manning he would run the O no need for Solari or dumbass Dick Curl so that guarantees us several wins right there.

Dude, Hermit controls the offense. The others are just figure heads.

We were a playoff team inspite of Damon Huard. Didn't you see the game Sunday? Those were his true colors.

If you brought Manning to KC right now we might win one or two games more than it looks like we will (3 or 4). He is good but you can't turn a pile of shit into a gourmet dinner by having someone else serve it.

a1na2
09-11-2007, 10:24 PM
Manning has a rookie LT and it doesn't matter because he is just unreal. His pocket presense his ability to just know the game and know exactly what is coming.

This guy is going to hold every single record ever when he retires, I consider him the greatest I've ever seen.

If he does, that's good for him. I dont' see him breaking every record there is for QB's. He's good, but not that good. His play is part him and part the chemistry of that team. Put him somewhere else and he most likely wouldn't be considered as good.

Mecca
09-11-2007, 10:26 PM
Who's to say Manning hasn't made those guys? Is it just some coincidence that every offensive player they put there with him is good?

Cmon Brandon Stokley?

orange
09-11-2007, 10:36 PM
what does it even matter which stadium the game was in?

How did Shanahan get access to the Chiefs' equipment. You know, to get the frequencies and modulations that you need to know. And where did he stash the enormous equipment needed? The antenna? The power supply? You can only do this with a transistor radio and a penknife if you're MacGyver.


No, Shanahan clearly used his amazing mental powers to pull this off.

a1na2
09-11-2007, 10:44 PM
Who's to say Manning hasn't made those guys? Is it just some coincidence that every offensive player they put there with him is good?

Cmon Brandon Stokley?

No way to know, either way, unless you put him with a team like the Chiefs.

a1na2
09-11-2007, 10:47 PM
How did Shanahan get access to the Chiefs' equipment. You know, to get the frequencies and modulations that you need to know. And where did he stash the enormous equipment needed? The antenna? The power supply? You can only do this with a transistor radio and a penknife if you're MacGyver.


No, Shanahan clearly used his amazing mental powers to pull this off.

You probably aren't familiar with equipment similar to radar detectors that people use in their cars to avoid the speeding citations.

It doesn't take much to modify equipment to accept known frequency ranges. It also doesn't take much to build a transmitter to interfere with communications. Most Electronics Engineers can build both.

I still say that all communication equipment that is used to communicate with the players should be removed from the game. Give the game back to the players.

Dylan
09-11-2007, 10:54 PM
"NFL security officials confiscated a camera and videotape from Patriots video assistant Matt Estrella on the New England sidelines when it was suspected he was recording the Jets' defensive signals. Sources say the visual evidence confirmed the suspicion."
If other teams are doing it they must have a good covert operations infiltrator. The Pats were using a VIDEO CAMERA?

Someone should tell Bill a good covert operator will know where he needs to be before the enemy catches him -- it's rarely about speed and most importantly, you will not catch him using a VIDEO camera. lol

Coming to YouTube Soon... "Disguised As A Video Camera" lol

el borracho
09-11-2007, 11:02 PM
Suspend the head coach for the year.

Dylan
09-11-2007, 11:03 PM
"The Patriots will be allowed an opportunity to present their case by Friday, sources said, most likely via the telephone."

Translation: "The Pats are circling the drain"

Jenson71
09-11-2007, 11:05 PM
Suspend the head coach for the year.

A suspension makes sense to me.

el borracho
09-11-2007, 11:18 PM
yep. The coaches are cheating to get a coaching advantage. Suspend the head coach and send a message- cheaters are not welcome in the NFL.

'Hamas' Jenkins
09-11-2007, 11:23 PM
I never liked the Pats, but I had begrudging respect for them.

Any semblance of that is gone now.

Burn 'em :fire:

Dylan
09-11-2007, 11:25 PM
Brady is 7-0 against the Jets @ home... Besides covering all aspects of the football team, the Pats are that much better than the Jets. Who doesn't know that? lol

Exactly how many points did Bill need to cover?

I think Bill should take a seat next to Vick in November. That will teach him...



{{{ just kidding )))

HypnotizedMonkey
09-11-2007, 11:53 PM
Bill Belichick dresses like a pirate and now is one. Tom Brady should get really upset and demand to be released and we can pick him up like when we got Joe. *wakes up from dreamland disoriented*

Goodell should make their heads roll for cheating like that .. they're one of the AFC's most consistant teams, and now we know why... he's probably feeding them all HGH too.

Duck Dog
09-12-2007, 03:57 AM
I wonder what other coaches think of this, off the record.

Amnorix
09-12-2007, 06:22 AM
I wonder what other coaches think of this, off the record.
Off the record, they're all laughing their ass off while making sure their own various cheating methods are better disguised...

Let's face it, the Pats didn't invent this, nor are they alone in doing it. Mangini was "in" on this, knew who was doing it, and clearly fingered him for Jets security or whatever. He's burnt his bridges at this point with BB, that much is clear.

P.S. Yes, I'm a cynic. I also think a huge percentage of NFL players are on 'roids, HGH or what have you.

stevieray
09-12-2007, 07:07 AM
"Everbody else does it" is a childish mentality that has become a sorry and overused excuse for less than honorable behavior that has been seeping into facets of our society.

Rausch
09-12-2007, 07:11 AM
"Everbody else does it" is a childish mentality that has become a sorry and overused excuse for less than honorable behavior that has been seeping into facets of our society.

As a kid we always avoided doing $#it because "everybody's doing it."

Duck Dog
09-12-2007, 07:15 AM
Off the record, they're all laughing their ass off while making sure their own various cheating methods are better disguised...

Let's face it, the Pats didn't invent this, nor are they alone in doing it. Mangini was "in" on this, knew who was doing it, and clearly fingered him for Jets security or whatever. He's burnt his bridges at this point with BB, that much is clear.

P.S. Yes, I'm a cynic. I also think a huge percentage of NFL players are on 'roids, HGH or what have you.


I tend to agree. Fans may seem outraged about this kind of cheating, while the other teams aren't blinking an eye. It's obvious it has evolved into part of their game.

cadmonkey
09-12-2007, 07:19 AM
Off the record, they're all laughing their ass off while making sure their own various cheating methods are better disguised...

Let's face it, the Pats didn't invent this, nor are they alone in doing it. Mangini was "in" on this, knew who was doing it, and clearly fingered him for Jets security or whatever. He's burnt his bridges at this point with BB, that much is clear.

P.S. Yes, I'm a cynic. I also think a huge percentage of NFL players are on 'roids, HGH or what have you.


Exactly, seeing how Mangini probably shook the guy's hand a hundred times in the past, it was easy for him to point the guy out.

Which pisses me off even more, why use the guy that Mangina would obviously know?

Amnorix
09-12-2007, 07:24 AM
"Everbody else does it" is a childish mentality that has become a sorry and overused excuse for less than honorable behavior that has been seeping into facets of our society.

It is no excuse. Pats cheated, apparently, and should be punished in a way that also includes sending a signal to others that it's not allowed.

That said, it would be better if the NFL itself would heavily police these matters, rather than allowing personal vendettas to control whether someone gets caught doing them or not.

Amnorix
09-12-2007, 07:28 AM
Exactly, seeing how Mangini probably shook the guy's hand a hundred times in the past, it was easy for him to point the guy out.

Which pisses me off even more, why use the guy that Mangina would obviously know?

Probably because, although technically illegal, enforcement is spotty or non-existent, and nobody thought about it or worried about it.

It's funny -- I was discussing with my wife this past weekend how Romeo Crennel might be back with the Pats soon, after the axe falls in Cleveland during or after the season. Drew a parallel to BB's return to NE and Parcells in 1996.

She said BB wouldn't take back Mangini though.

I had just seen an article within a day or two before that said BB was like Michael Corleone, "it's always business, never person", and suggested BB would take him back if he left the Jets.

Well...it just got personal.

And Mangini may have really bitten his hand off here. If this is viewed as a "betrayal" by NFL HCs, etc., then he may have greatly reduced his prospects of future employment if/when his Jets job comes to an end. Pure speculation on my part, of course.

stevieray
09-12-2007, 07:30 AM
It is no excuse. Pats cheated, apparently, and should be punished in a way that also includes sending a signal to others that it's not allowed.

That said, it would be better if the NFL itself would heavily police these matters, rather than allowing personal vendettas to control whether someone gets caught doing them or not.

:clap:

HemiEd
09-12-2007, 07:43 AM
How about taking the receivers out of the helmets? Why can't a team prepare a game plan and have the QB run it as they did in the past?

Having the coaching staff call the plays is nothing more than micro-management. If the coach wants to confer with the QB they need to call a time out. It worked for years, why should it not work now?

I would agree with that wholeheartedly. However, it would give Peyton Manning an even bigger advantage than he already has. The QBs would actually have to be able to run the team.

BucEyedPea
09-12-2007, 07:45 AM
It's funny -- I was discussing with my wife this past weekend how Romeo Crennel might be back with the Pats soon, after the axe falls in Cleveland during or after the season. Drew a parallel to BB's return to NE and Parcells in 1996.
I'd love to see this happen.

She said BB wouldn't take back Mangini though...

Well...it just got personal.
I agree with ya' here.
There's real bad blood now.
It's become tit for tat.

And Mangini may have really bitten his hand off here. If this is viewed as a "betrayal" by NFL HCs, etc., then he may have greatly reduced his prospects of future employment if/when his Jets job comes to an end. Pure speculation on my part, of course.
Interesting. Things usually have a way of making the other side accountable too.

BucEyedPea
09-12-2007, 07:47 AM
I would agree with that wholeheartedly. However, it would give Peyton Manning an even bigger advantage than he already has. The QBs would actually have to be able to run the team.
I thought Peyton already had this advantage.
I think he already changes what his signals mean too.

dirk digler
09-12-2007, 07:54 AM
It is no excuse. Pats cheated, apparently, and should be punished in a way that also includes sending a signal to others that it's not allowed.

That said, it would be better if the NFL itself would heavily police these matters, rather than allowing personal vendettas to control whether someone gets caught doing them or not.

While I tend to agree IMO if it was personal then why didn't we hear about it last year especially before or after the playoff game?

Amnorix
09-12-2007, 08:10 AM
While I tend to agree IMO if it was personal then why didn't we hear about it last year especially before or after the playoff game?

I'm not a mind-reader, but one obvious possibly presents itself -- Mangini's bitterness at getting stomped in the playoffs?

Also, Pats accused Jets of improper meddling iwth the Asante Samuel contract situation.

BucEyedPea
09-12-2007, 08:11 AM
As, I posted earlier, let's wait to get both sides of this story because some things are not adding up. There's two sides to a story. There's the seen and the unseen. There's been antics going on between the Jets and Pats. Some things seem illogical. This is the problem I have: just because the Commissioner says something he may not have all the material facts either.

Take a look at this.

Jets Guilty? Pats to be Vindicated? Stay Tuned.
about 3 hours ago :: 80 Views
In response to:
NFL: Patriots cheated, penalties to come

The NFL has determined that the Patriots violated league rules Sunday when they videotaped Jets coaches sending signals to players on the field during New England's 38-14 victory at Giants Stadium, ESPN and the NFL Network reported last night. Before the league issues any sanctions - which could be severe, including suspensions, fines, and the loss of draft picks - Patriots coach Bill Belichick will present his team's explanation to NFL commissioner Roger Goodell, likely by the end of the week over the telephone.

Jets Guilty? Pats to be Vindicated? Stay Tuned.

While it looks very ominous in New England for the Pats today, the Pats side of the story in "spygate" New York is yet to be told, and that story may have the NFL looking back at the Jets for their pre-game antics and activites in this bitter rivalry. Consider that just days before the game, the Jets brought into camp the ex-Pats receiver Caldwell.

Why, do you ask if the Jets already had a full complement of receivers and had no intention of signing him?

Well, sources in New England say it was to get the Pats' offensive playbook and the verbal signals Brady uses during the game so that the Jets would know what play was coming - this could explain why the Pats were operating on a different radio frequency between Brady and the Offensive coordinator - they were fearful the Jets were "tapping the wires" of Brady's helmet, and the Jets knew the plays from Caldwell's input so they could defense any Pats play with ease. Regarding the filming of the defensive coaches of the Jets - yes it happened, but not for the reasons everyone thinks.

The Pats were and are accumulating proof to be presented to the NFL on Friday that the Jets set about a scheme to steal the offensive signals electronically from the Pats and to set the defensive scheme based on this --- the Pats crossed the Jets up by going on a different frequency (how else did the Jets know the Pats were on a different frequency if they weren't trying to listen in?).

The Pats were filming the Jets defensive calls so that AFTER the game (not during), they could prove the Jets' tampering to the NFL. We should all wait til Friday to see how this all turns out, but be prepared for a shocking twist to this intiguing story. The Pats did not, and do not need to cheat, and I suspect they did not cheat on Sunday to whip the Jets. Had they been stealing defensive signals from the Jets, you would have seen a lot of audibles at the line by Brady --- and if you review the game tape (as I did ) this was not the case on Sunday.

I do not believe that Mr Kraft would condone this type of action, and Coach B would not risk losing his reputation (and maybe his job) by doing something so blatant and embarrassing to Mr Kraft and the team ...and Brady would NEVER stoop to this type of behavior.

No, ladies and gentlemen, let's just wait to see how this saga unfolds on Friday. If I am wrong, I will go public with a statement of apology to all Jets fans and FanNation, and release my private note to Mr Kraft sent last night, but please save your shots til we hear the other side of this story

http://www.fannation.com/blogs/post/58476

Interesting 'eh?
Larry Broadcast of Boston

pikesome
09-12-2007, 08:17 AM
As, I posted earlier, let's wait to get both sides of this story because some things are not adding up. There's two sides to a story. There's the seen and the unseen. There's been antics going on between the Jets and Pats. Some things seem illogical. This is the problem I have: just because the Commissioner says something he may not have all the material facts either.

Take a look at this.

Jets Guilty? Pats to be Vindicated? Stay Tuned.
about 3 hours ago :: 80 Views
In response to:
NFL: Patriots cheated, penalties to come

The NFL has determined that the Patriots violated league rules Sunday when they videotaped Jets coaches sending signals to players on the field during New England's 38-14 victory at Giants Stadium, ESPN and the NFL Network reported last night. Before the league issues any sanctions - which could be severe, including suspensions, fines, and the loss of draft picks - Patriots coach Bill Belichick will present his team's explanation to NFL commissioner Roger Goodell, likely by the end of the week over the telephone.

Jets Guilty? Pats to be Vindicated? Stay Tuned. While it looks very ominous in New England for the Pats today, the Pats side of the story in "spygate" New York is yet to be told, and that story may have the NFL looking back at the Jets for their pre-game antics and activites in this bitter rivalry. Consider that just days before the game, the Jets brought into camp the ex-Pats receiver Caldwell. Why, do you ask if the Jets already had a full complement of receivers and had no intention of signing him? Well, sources in New England say it was to get the Pats' offensive playbook and the verbal signals Brady uses during the game so that the Jets would know what play was coming - this could explain why the Pats were operating on a different radio frequency between Brady and the Offensive coordinator - they were fearful the Jets were "tapping the wires" of Brady's helmet, and the Jets knew the plays from Caldwell's input so they could defense any Pats play with ease. Regarding the filming of the defensive coaches of the Jets - yes it happened, but not for the reasons everyone thinks. The Pats were and are accumulating proof to be presented to the NFL on Friday that the Jets set about a scheme to steal the offensive signals electronically from the Pats and to set the defensive scheme based on this --- the Pats crossed the Jets up by going on a different frequency (how else did the Jets know the Pats were on a different frequency if they weren't trying to listen in?). The Pats were filming the Jets defensive calls so that AFTER the game (not during), they could prove the Jets' tampering to the NFL. We should all wait til Friday to see how this all turns out, but be prepared for a shocking twist to this intiguing story. The Pats did not, and do not need to cheat, and I suspect they did not cheat on Sunday to whip the Jets. Had they been stealing defensive signals from the Jets, you would have seen a lot of audibles at the line by Brady --- and if you review the game tape (as I did ) this was not the case on Sunday. I do not believe that Mr Kraft would condone this type of action, and Coach B would not risk losing his reputation (and maybe his job) by doing something so blatant and embarrassing to Mr Kraft and the team ...and Brady would NEVER stoop to this type of behavior. No, ladies and gentlemen, let's just wait to see how this saga unfolds on Friday. If I am wrong, I will go public with a statement of apology to all Jets fans and FanNation, and release my private note to Mr Kraft sent last night, but please save your shots til we hear the other side of this story

http://www.fannation.com/blogs/post/58476

Interesting 'eh?
Larry Broadcast of Boston

Seems like an awfully convenient excuse. It might be a bit more believable if the Pats hadn't already been put on notice individually and then the whole of the NFL warned. It also doesn't explain the previous incidents.

Extra Point
09-12-2007, 08:18 AM
Ruling the Jets a win in week one, or a $1 Million fine (3 days of Velveeta production), gets this over with, in a hurry. Ruling involving next year's draft picks delays the agony-- noone wants to hear about it, beyond this week. However, that gives the media mill grain to grind.

BucEyedPea
09-12-2007, 08:20 AM
Seems like you, like others, are convinced of guilt without any due process or hearing all the relevant facts. Like waiting until there's a full investigation.

You're prejudiced, bias or have an axe to grind and/or rely on news reports as truth.

It's no wonder the average person cannot be trusted with justice.

Amnorix
09-12-2007, 08:20 AM
welll.....that's interesting. Seems like a bit of a stretch, but what do I know.

It also doesn't answer similar charges levied against Pats last year by Detroit and the Packers...

Amnorix
09-12-2007, 08:21 AM
Ruling the Jets a win in week one, or a $1 Million fine (3 days of Velveeta production), gets this over with, in a hurry. Ruling involving next year's draft picks delays the agony-- noone wants to hear about it, beyond this week. However, that gives the media mill grain to grind.

yeah, uhh, the Pats owner has NOTHING to do with Kraft foods.

He's in the paper industry, among others.

BucEyedPea
09-12-2007, 08:24 AM
welll.....that's interesting. Seems like a bit of a stretch, but what do I know.

It also doesn't answer similar charges levied against Pats last year by Detroit and the Packers...
True. I don't know about that one, including if the charges remained charges only. What were the results of that one?

pikesome
09-12-2007, 08:25 AM
Seems like you, like others, are convinced of guilt without any due process or hearing all the relevant facts. Like waiting until there's a full investigation.

You're prejudiced, bias or have an axe to grind and/or rely on news reports as truth.

It's no wonder the average person cannot be trusted with justice.

Being blind to the circumstances and history is just as bad as jumping to conclusions. We aren't ever going to have all the info, the NFL is never going to let it all get out but there's a lot of history concerning this guy, the filming and the Pats. If this was the first time maybe being sceptical would be prudent but there's at least 2 other similar incidents I've heard of not to mention the fact that the league thought enough of the previous accusations to warn the Pats and every other team that this, specifically, was verboten. It all adds up to cast a long shadow of doubt on any excuse the Pats come up with.

BucEyedPea
09-12-2007, 08:26 AM
Besides, Amn, if BB is that smart (or devious) why would the Pats be so blatantly open about it on the Jet's sideline? That's just incredibly stupid and illogical. Obviously, it's the wrong way to go about the situation. It' sjust letting Manboobs get in his head. I'm gonna still wait it out.

Amnorix
09-12-2007, 08:31 AM
True. I don't know about that one, including if the charges remained charges only. What were the results of that one?

nothing. No formal complaint lodged.

BucEyedPea
09-12-2007, 08:33 AM
Being blind to the circumstances and history is just as bad as jumping to conclusions. We aren't ever going to have all the info, the NFL is never going to let it all get out but there's a lot of history concerning this guy, the filming and the Pats. If this was the first time maybe being sceptical would be prudent but there's at least 2 other similar incidents I've heard of not to mention the fact that the league thought enough of the previous accusations to warn the Pats and every other team that this, specifically, was verboten. It all adds up to cast a long shadow of doubt on any excuse the Pats come up with.
2 incidents is not a whole lotta history in my book. It's not good either.
Now if the Jet's weren't trying to steal their signals electronically whereby the Pats were trying to prove it on film, ESPECIALLY AFTER issuing warnings, then I'm with ya.'

pikesome
09-12-2007, 08:39 AM
2 incidents is not a whole lotta history in my book. It's not good either.
Now if the Jet's weren't trying to steal their signals electronically whereby the Pats were trying to prove it on film, ESPECIALLY AFTER issuing warnings, then I'm with ya.'

If the Pats had said something to the league ahead of time, maybe. The idea that the Pats would do something very, very similar to what the league had warned them not to do without mentioning it seems fishy. They had the guy there with the camera, that's enough time to pick up a phone and mention it to someone.

Brock
09-12-2007, 08:39 AM
http://www.fannation.com/blogs/post/58476

Interesting 'eh?
Larry Broadcast of Boston

LOL, yeah, interesting bunch of BS.

BucEyedPea
09-12-2007, 08:42 AM
So in other words you're mind is made up on incomplete information?

Did it ever occur to you, they needed proof and there was no time inbetween to file a complaint. There's many scenarios that could explain things. This is what incomplete information does to people....they make up data if only to make sense of the situation based on original stories.

Amnorix
09-12-2007, 08:50 AM
BB's statement. Appears he's falling on the sword on this:

Bill Belichick released the following statement today:"Earlier this week, I spoke with Commissioner Goodell about a videotaping procedure during last Sunday's game and my interpretation of the rules. At this point, we have not been notified of the league's ruling. Although it remains a league matter, I want to apologize to everyone who has been affected, most of all ownership, staff and players. Following the league’s decision, I will have further comment."

el borracho
09-12-2007, 08:50 AM
If the Jets were cheating in the manner described then the head coach should be suspended for the season. Of course it still would not justify the Pats cheating ways so I would still recommend that the Pats head coach be suspended, as well.

Amnorix
09-12-2007, 08:54 AM
NY Daily News:

Armed with counter-intelligence from Eric Mangini, the Jets apparently have succeeded in busting the Patriots' spy ring.
A former assistant under Bill Belichick, Mangini arrived in New York last year with an insider's knowledge of the Patriots' sign-stealing surveillance tactics and he shared the dirty little secret with members of the Jets' organization, a person with knowledge of the matter informed the Daily News yesterday.
It wasn't until the fifth Mangini-Belichick showdown - last Sunday - that the Jets were able to catch the Patriots. Tipped off by Jets security, an NFL security official confiscated a video camera and tape from a Patriots employee at the Meadowlands, and the evidence is believed to be damning.
Commissioner Roger Goodell hasn't made a final decision, according to a high-level source, but he wants to resolve the issue ASAP. A league spokesman refuted an ESPN report last night that said Goodell already has determined that the Patriots violated league rules.
An announcement could be made by the end of the week. The Patriots, who will have a chance to present their side to Goodell by Friday, could be stripped of multiple draft choices and/or fined heavily.
Matt Estrella, 26, a Patriots video assistant, was nabbed just before halftime of the Jets' 38-14 loss on opening day. He allegedly videotaped hand signals from the Jets' defensive coaches on the sideline, defying an edict from Goodell, who warned teams before the season that he wouldn't tolerate cheating. Several teams have suspected the Patriots of stealing signs. So did the Jets, thanks to Mangini.
"(The Jets) knew they did it," the person with knowledge of the situation said in an e-mail to the Daily News. "They caught the guy a year ago, but couldn't do anything about it. When Eric came, he said that's what they used to do. Bill is going to be (ticked) at Eric. He kissed and told."
Mangini, hired last year by the Jets, coached under Belichick from 2000 to 2005 in New England. Their once-close relationship has frayed, and this latest chapter in the Border War has raised the hostility to all-time levels.
New details came to light yesterday. The cameraman, wearing a team polo shirt under the league-mandated sideline photographer's vest, was stopped by security as he tried to enter the New England locker room before halftime, sources said. An animated discussion ensued, involving league security, Jets security and Patriots security.
The dispute, which occurred in the bowels of the stadium, lasted more than an hour, virtually the entire second half. At one point, it became so heated that New Jersey state troopers were summoned as a precaution, a source said. The Jets apparently were trying to confiscate the videotape, which wound up in the possession of NFL security. The tape was placed in a box, sealed and forwarded to the league.
"He looked scared to death," one source said of Estrella.
It's unclear if the Patriots had a chance to review the tape before it was seized, raising the question of whether it helped them in the game. They certainly played like they knew the Jets' strategy. In the second half, Tom Brady completed 10 of 11 passes for 138 yards and a touchdown.
"He seemed like he knew what we were doing," safety Kerry Rhodes said.
No video recording devices of any kind are permitted on the field, in the locker room or in the coaches' booth during a game, according to league rules.
Patriots owner Robert Kraft said yesterday it would be inappropriate to comment directly on the accusations, but he hinted that the Jets' actions may have stemmed from being envious of his team's success.
"When you're successful in anything, a lot of people like to try to take you down and do different things," he told reporters at a charity appearance. "We understand that."
The Jets have declined comment, saying it's a league matter.
Belichick, addressing the situation for the first time late Monday on his Boston radio show, acknowledged he was aware of the incident at the game. Beyond that, he provided little insight, saying, "It's a league thing. Whatever the deal is, which I don't even know the details of, a lot of it, we'll comply."
This isn't the first time the Jets and Patriots have accused each other of wrongdoing. A year ago, the Patriots filed tampering charges against the Jets, claiming they conducted improper discussions with Deion Branch when the wide receiver was given permission to seek a trade. After an intensive, four-month investigation, the Jets were exonerated.
Patriots bashing apparently has become popular. Chargers running back LaDainian Tomlinson, who questioned Belichick's integrity after a playoff loss last January, said Monday he wasn't surprised by Spy Gate.
"I think the Patriots actually live by the saying, 'If you're not cheating, you're not trying,'" he told reporters in San Diego.
The Chargers and Patriots meet this Sunday.

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/football/jets/2007/09/12/2007-09-12_eric_mangini_exposes_bill_belichicks_spy.html

Amnorix
09-12-2007, 08:55 AM
Tiki and Ronde Barber, as quoted by a pats fan on a Pats board:

On their "Barber Shop" show on Sirius NFL radio last night said that that every team has someone who's job it is to try to steal the other team's signals and that everyone in the league knows it is going on. They said they don't know if everyone video tapes it, but they were kinda surprised about the reaction since the Jets were probably doing a similiar thing to the Pats but just wasn't caught.

Amnorix
09-12-2007, 08:56 AM
I gotta admit, I don't get why this is THAT hot a story.

:shrug:

maybe it's the homer glasses, I dunno.

StcChief
09-12-2007, 08:58 AM
Like it made any difference. Jets got wiped.

pikesome
09-12-2007, 08:58 AM
So in other words you're mind is made up on incomplete information?

Made up? Not completely, but baring having 100% of the fact I have to form my opinion based on what I have.

Did it ever occur to you, they needed proof and there was no time inbetween to file a complaint. There's many scenarios that could explain things. This is what incomplete information does to people....they make up data if only to make sense of the situation based on original stories.

This is way far fetched. I'm sure that if there was enough reason for the Pats to go Perry Mason on the Jets there should have been enough to call the league office and say "Hey, we're suspicious, you guys ought to look into this". It's not like the NFL has standing penalties for inaccurately accusing teams as long as it's not public.

There's enough evidence, apparently, for the NFL to issue a statement saying that they think the Pats are guilty. They're giving them a chance to explain but whatever they have seems to be proof enough for them.

Brock
09-12-2007, 09:02 AM
LT still whining, LOL.

Amnorix
09-12-2007, 09:03 AM
Clayton has several EXCELLENT points on this, including why a 2nd day pick is no penalty at all to the Pats (only the 1st and 2nd round picks made the team this year).


http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/story?columnist=clayton_john&id=3014944

HemiEd
09-12-2007, 09:03 AM
Tiki and Ronde Barber, as quoted by a pats fan on a Pats board:

On their "Barber Shop" show on Sirius NFL radio last night said that that every team has someone who's job it is to try to steal the other team's signals and that everyone in the league knows it is going on. They said they don't know if everyone video tapes it, but they were kinda surprised about the reaction since the Jets were probably doing a similiar thing to the Pats but just wasn't caught.

Stealing signs is part of the NFL and MLB IMO. Usually some old fart with a note pad.
However, using technology, to make an exact audio/visual guide, is going out of bounds IMO.
Signs would be obsolete if that were allowed, and it appears the rules have this covered, to me.

pikesome
09-12-2007, 09:04 AM
I gotta admit, I don't get why this is THAT hot a story.

:shrug:

maybe it's the homer glasses, I dunno.

It casts doubt on how "great" BB's genius really is. That's the bad thing about this sort of deal. The Pats and BB have been lauded for doing so much with so little and game planning for each opponent so well. If this happened once you have to be suspicious how many times it's happened before. Maybe never but once you get the tag of "cheater" it colors every single thing you have or will do.

HemiEd
09-12-2007, 09:05 AM
I gotta admit, I don't get why this is THAT hot a story.

:shrug:

maybe it's the homer glasses, I dunno.

Because the Patriots are the cow that made it to the top of the pile of shit. (feedlot reference)

StcChief
09-12-2007, 09:05 AM
Stealing signs is part of the NFL and MLB IMO. Usually some old fart with a note pad.
However, using technology, to make an exact audio/visual guide, is going out of bounds IMO.
Signs would be obsolete if that were allowed, and it appears the rules have this covered, to me.
The headset jamming bugs me the most. Signs can be changed

el borracho
09-12-2007, 09:05 AM
Cheating is always a hot issue in sports. If we are just going to shrug and excuse cheating by saying "everyone is doing it" then we might as well not have competitive sports.

pikesome
09-12-2007, 09:07 AM
The headset jamming bugs me the most. Signs can be changed

Or listening in. There are all sorts of ways to collect signal intell and that's the possibility that seems so scary. It would change a vast amount of the way thing are done if someone got caught do that.

pikesome
09-12-2007, 09:08 AM
Cheating is always a hot issue in sports. If we are just going to shrug and excuse cheating by saying "everyone is doing it" then we might as well not have competitive sports.

Can we get this post engraved into the front page?

Amnorix
09-12-2007, 09:10 AM
The headset jamming bugs me the most. Signs can be changed

No accusation of that against the Pats here, right? Or have you seen something I haven't?

HemiEd
09-12-2007, 09:10 AM
The headset jamming bugs me the most. Signs can be changed

I wish I had a video copy of that playoff game. I was really pissed about it, for numerous reasons. Elvis said a lot dumb stuff, but that was something that stuck with me. I remember him being visibly upset with his helmet, and the timing was perfect for the opposition.

pikesome
09-12-2007, 09:19 AM
No accusation of that against the Pats here, right? Or have you seen something I haven't?

There was a brief mention of "problems" with the headsets and that it was being looked into. Nothing to connect it to the Pats. It could have been journalistic "flavor".

BucEyedPea
09-12-2007, 09:21 AM
The Web site’s report said Goodell is considering severe sanctions, including docking the Patriots “multiple draft picks.”

A league spokesman, however, said only that an investigation is under way. Both teams said no decision has been made.


http://www.fannation.com/blogs/post/58476

Amnorix
09-12-2007, 09:27 AM
Oy. The Chargers game could be ugly if the Pats are internally distracted by this crap.


Press conference

By Mike Reiss, Globe Staff
FOXBOROUGH -- Patriots coach Bill Belichick arrived for his press conference today and opened with the following remark:"First of all, I think everybody had a copy of the statement I made a little bit earlier this morning. Really, until we get a ruling from the league, I don't think there is anything more I have to add to it. It's on to San Diego.

..."Some of the ensuing Q&A:

Are you worried at all that the investigation will be a distraction?

"We have a big week here with the Chargers. We know that. That's what we're working on."

When you spoke with Roger Goodell, did he give you an indication of when the decision would be made?

"I don't have anything to add. I said all I can say about it for right now. When something comes in, I'll have another comment on it. Until then, that's it."

Are you making any contingency plans should you be suspended and unable to coach the game on Sunday?

"I don't have anything else to add. I've said all I can say right now."

Are you embarassed by it?

"Are there any questions about the Chargers? Do you want to talk about the football game? That statement pretty much covers it."

Do you think you put the players in a tough situation?

"I think we're getting ready for San Diego, that's what we do on Wednesday. That's what we're doing today. OK, any questions about the game?"

At the end of the press conference, Belichick was asked about his interpreation of the NFL's videotaping rule. Belichick said that when the team gets a ruling, it would make a comment. When a follow-up question was asked, Belichick asked if there were any other questions on the Chargers, and left the podium as a question on the videotaping rule was being asked.

Amnorix
09-12-2007, 09:30 AM
The Web site’s report said Goodell is considering severe sanctions, including docking the Patriots “multiple draft picks.”

A league spokesman, however, said only that an investigation is under way. Both teams said no decision has been made.


http://www.fannation.com/blogs/post/58476

I'd honestly give up a 2 this year and a 2 next year for it all to stop right now, and for someone to give BB a great big "dope slap".

I'd give a 2 for the followign year for the Broncos OLine to give Mangini a group cut block for being a backstabbing MF'er too.

HemiEd
09-12-2007, 09:32 AM
Wow, those are some stuborn reporters. :)

Amnorix
09-12-2007, 09:34 AM
Wow, those are some stuborn reporters. :)

"Stubborn". Yes, that is ONE word for our local sports media. I could come up with a couple others. :)

pikesome
09-12-2007, 09:37 AM
I'd honestly give up a 2 this year and a 2 next year for it all to stop right now, and for someone to give BB a great big "dope slap".

I'd give a 2 for the followign year for the Broncos OLine to give Mangini a group cut block for being a backstabbing MF'er too.

If BB/the Pats are guilty I don't see how you could be mad at Mangini for complaining. It is cheating and his loyalties ought to be to the team that's paying him. I hope they come up with something conclusive, if not it's going to be years of "The Pats are dirty cheaters" and "Mangini is a whinny pussy who makes stuff up". It'd be nice to settle it, one way or another.

Amnorix
09-12-2007, 09:39 AM
If BB/the Pats are guilty I don't see how you could be mad at Mangini for complaining. It is cheating and his loyalties ought to be to the team that's paying him. I hope they come up with something conclusive, if not it's going to be years of "The Pats are dirty cheaters" and "Mangini is a whinny pussy who makes stuff up". It'd be nice to settle it, one way or another.

You're right. I'll put Mangini on my Xmas card list for upholding the integrity of the game.

pikesome
09-12-2007, 09:43 AM
You're right. I'll put Mangini on my Xmas card list for upholding the integrity of the game.

:)

I'm not sure how much jest is in there. Mangini could have been a bit less...adversarial isn't quite the right word but something in this whole move to the Jets deal too.

Amnorix
09-12-2007, 09:46 AM
:)

I'm not sure how much jest is in there. Mangini could have been a bit less...adversarial isn't quite the right word but something in this whole move to the Jets deal too.

Assholian, perhaps...?

He left the team and flipped us the bird as he went. He tried to steal our coaches, and actually got one (maybe 2). He went to a team in our own division. And not just the Bills. But the freaking Jets.

Let me put it this way -- if Al Saunders had left Dick Vermeil to go coach the Raiders or Broncos (whoever you guys hate the most), and took a coach or two with him, and signed several of your former players, and were strongly suspected of interfering with contract talks with a free agent / franchised player, and then this happened, would Al be on your Xmas card list?

Thought not...


Noen of this, of course, excuses Bill "I was a teenaged genius" Belichick from being so DUMB as to contineu this after he was nearly caught at it last year, and after getting a league-wide warning on this stuff.

the Talking Can
09-12-2007, 09:49 AM
Assholian, perhaps...?

He left the team and flipped us the bird as he went. He tried to steal our coaches, and actually got one (maybe 2). He went to a team in our own division. And not just the Bills. But the freaking Jets.

Let me put it this way -- if Al Saunders had left Dick Vermeil to go coach the Raiders or Broncos (whoever you guys hate the most), and took a coach or two with him, and signed several of your former players, and were strongly suspected of interfering with contract talks with a free agent / franchised player, and then this happened, would Al be on your Xmas card list?

Thought not...


Noen of this, of course, excuses Bill "I was a teenaged genius" Belichick from being so DUMB as to contineu this after he was nearly caught at it last year, and after getting a league-wide warning on this stuff.


so, its cool if BB does everything - including cheating - to win....but not cool if someone else does it....

FAX
09-12-2007, 09:50 AM
This is bad for you guys, Mr. Amnorix. Very bad. It really sucks. Big time. Makes you wonder if Mumbling Bill has fully functioning frontal lobes.

Did I mention how bad this is for you?

FAX

pikesome
09-12-2007, 09:56 AM
Assholian, perhaps...?

He left the team and flipped us the bird as he went. He tried to steal our coaches, and actually got one (maybe 2). He went to a team in our own division. And not just the Bills. But the freaking Jets.

Let me put it this way -- if Al Saunders had left Dick Vermeil to go coach the Raiders or Broncos (whoever you guys hate the most), and took a coach or two with him, and signed several of your former players, and were strongly suspected of interfering with contract talks with a free agent / franchised player, and then this happened, would Al be on your Xmas card list?

Thought not...


Noen of this, of course, excuses Bill "I was a teenaged genius" Belichick from being so DUMB as to contineu this after he was nearly caught at it last year, and after getting a league-wide warning on this stuff.

Most of the stuff re players and coaches is just the way it works. You can't really bitch too much about it. Yea, it sucks, but that's the way the cookie crumbles. The deal with the tampering is kinda fuzzy, the league said nothing wrong happened, it could have been sour grapes on the Pats part. Or maybe they couldn't catch Mangini.

Going to a rival ain't nice but, once again, that stuff happens. It rubs the wrong way but it's not, exactly, wrong.

The biggest problem is the "flipping off" in a figurative way. Mangini has seemed to sour on the Pats the second he left, maybe there's something behind the scenes we don't know but he isn't/hasn't won an ounce of slack from Pat fans with his attitude. He obviously isn't concerned about smoothing over any hurt feelings.

Amnorix
09-12-2007, 09:58 AM
so, its cool if BB does everything - including cheating - to win....but not cool if someone else does it....

WHAT?! Read this thread. I never said anythign like that.

Amnorix
09-12-2007, 10:01 AM
The deal with the tampering is kinda fuzzy, the league said nothing wrong happened, it could have been sour grapes on the Pats part. Or maybe they couldn't catch Mangini.

Yeah, which do you think?

Going to a rival ain't nice but, once again, that stuff happens. It rubs the wrong way but it's not, exactly, wrong.

Well, not as wrong as cheating, I'll give you that.

The biggest problem is the "flipping off" in a figurative way. Mangini has seemed to sour on the Pats the second he left, maybe there's something behind the scenes we don't know but he isn't/hasn't won an ounce of slack from Pat fans with his attitude. He obviously isn't concerned about smoothing over any hurt feelings.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, well, fug him. Saban was in our div too, and there was no hatred there.

Now, my second favorite team is whoeve rplays the Jets. My third favorite is whoever plays the Niners, unless we lose that pick, of course... :banghead:

pikesome
09-12-2007, 10:07 AM
Yeah, which do you think?
Mangini didn't get caught. That's my gut feeling but I can't back it up.

Well, not as wrong as cheating, I'll give you that.

Yeah, well, fug him. Saban was in our div too, and there was no hatred there.

Now, my second favorite team is whoeve rplays the Jets. My third favorite is whoever plays the Niners, unless we lose that pick, of course... :banghead:

I hear you. Neil Smith to the Broncos?!?! I'm still a bit peeved but...

Amnorix
09-12-2007, 10:11 AM
Well, I'm about burnt on this topic. I think I've more than adequately proved, again, that I don't turn tail and run when things don't go so well for my boys.

What a fiasco. And leading up to a HUGE game too. *sigh*

FAX
09-12-2007, 10:13 AM
Hang in there, Mr. Amnorix.

You're a stand up person, no doubt.

FAX

DaKCMan AP
09-12-2007, 10:33 AM
I do not believe that Mr Kraft would condone this type of action, and Coach B would not risk losing his reputation (and maybe his job) by doing something so blatant and embarrassing to Mr Kraft and the team ...and Brady would NEVER stoop to this type of behavior.

http://www.fannation.com/blogs/post/58476

Interesting 'eh?
Larry Broadcast of Boston

Yeah, BB has such a great reputation... of being a miserable jerk and a sleaze. And Brady, Mr. Character, who has baby-mamas.

Brock
09-12-2007, 01:24 PM
Belichick worried about his reputation, LOL. He's proud of being one of the biggest a-holes in football. I love the guy.

Belichick ignite Vikings feud
Posted: Wednesday September 12, 2007 07:38AM ET
Vikings coach Brad Childress basically accused the Patriots of signing linebacker David Herron out of spite last week, and the Pats did little to dispel that notion by cutting him yesterday. According to an interview Childress conducted with a Minneapolis radio station on Sept. 2, he received a threatening phone call from Patriots coach Bill Belichick, who had gotten wind that the Vikings were preparing to sign tight end Garrett Mills. The Pats wanted Mills, who they had cut, for their practice squad, and Belichick said that if the Vikings signed him, then the Pats might have to sign some Vikings.

pikesome
09-12-2007, 01:43 PM
Belichick worried about his reputation, LOL. He's proud of being one of the biggest a-holes in football. I love the guy.

Belichick ignite Vikings feud
Posted: Wednesday September 12, 2007 07:38AM ET
Vikings coach Brad Childress basically accused the Patriots of signing linebacker David Herron out of spite last week, and the Pats did little to dispel that notion by cutting him yesterday. According to an interview Childress conducted with a Minneapolis radio station on Sept. 2, he received a threatening phone call from Patriots coach Bill Belichick, who had gotten wind that the Vikings were preparing to sign tight end Garrett Mills. The Pats wanted Mills, who they had cut, for their practice squad, and Belichick said that if the Vikings signed him, then the Pats might have to sign some Vikings.

Stay classy Bill. :thumb:

Seriously, if Childress is willing to say this publicly you have to wonder. NFL coaches aren't known for calling out others for ticky-tack stuff.

Amnorix
09-12-2007, 01:57 PM
Stay classy Bill. :thumb:

Seriously, if Childress is willing to say this publicly you have to wonder. NFL coaches aren't known for calling out others for ticky-tack stuff.

Childress later apologized for discussing that publicly.

And what "threat" could BB make. It's silliness.

BucEyedPea
09-12-2007, 02:00 PM
That's right he did apologize and said it goes on in the league.

Valiant
09-12-2007, 02:14 PM
while i definitely believe he is probably one of the best quarterbacks to ever play the game, its Harrison and Wayne that have made him probably the best to ever


Are you serious?? I am sorry but it is the other way around.. Manning makes everybody on that team better... Harrison is also great, Wayne had too many low years on his career to be considered great unless he keeps up his pace for another 5 years..

But Manning makes everybody on that team better with his leadership and his ability to call a game.. And then the fact that the guy does have a laser rocket arm with great accuracy..

God I am a Chiefs fan, but Manning is my favorite player in the NFL..

Valiant
09-12-2007, 02:17 PM
Only if you use LSD to enhance your dreams.



IF Manning were on the Chiefs there would be none of this Solari offense called and he would still Arena the ball for more then 20 pts a game...

pikesome
09-12-2007, 02:18 PM
IF Manning were on the Chiefs there would be none of this Solari offense called and he would still Arena the ball for more then 20 pts a game...

We wouldn't look as good as the Colts do now but we'd sure look good, probably even great.

Valiant
09-12-2007, 02:23 PM
Probably because, although technically illegal, enforcement is spotty or non-existent, and nobody thought about it or worried about it.

It's funny -- I was discussing with my wife this past weekend how Romeo Crennel might be back with the Pats soon, after the axe falls in Cleveland during or after the season. Drew a parallel to BB's return to NE and Parcells in 1996.

She said BB wouldn't take back Mangini though.

I had just seen an article within a day or two before that said BB was like Michael Corleone, "it's always business, never person", and suggested BB would take him back if he left the Jets.

Well...it just got personal.

And Mangini may have really bitten his hand off here. If this is viewed as a "betrayal" by NFL HCs, etc., then he may have greatly reduced his prospects of future employment if/when his Jets job comes to an end. Pure speculation on my part, of course.


Mangini bit his hand off, how about your ex-boss/friend trying to screw you over with this??? Yeah its all Mangini's fault for catching his old boss trying to **** him.. It is pretty bad when BB will even **** over his friends in a game with cheating..

Dylan
09-12-2007, 02:23 PM
As, I posted earlier, let's wait to get both sides of this story because some things are not adding up. There's two sides to a story. There's the seen and the unseen. There's been antics going on between the Jets and Pats. Some things seem illogical. This is the problem I have: just because the Commissioner says something he may not have all the material facts either.

Take a look at this.

Jets Guilty? Pats to be Vindicated? Stay Tuned.
about 3 hours ago :: 80 Views
In response to:
NFL: Patriots cheated, penalties to come

The NFL has determined that the Patriots violated league rules Sunday when they videotaped Jets coaches sending signals to players on the field during New England's 38-14 victory at Giants Stadium, ESPN and the NFL Network reported last night. Before the league issues any sanctions - which could be severe, including suspensions, fines, and the loss of draft picks - Patriots coach Bill Belichick will present his team's explanation to NFL commissioner Roger Goodell, likely by the end of the week over the telephone.

Jets Guilty? Pats to be Vindicated? Stay Tuned.

While it looks very ominous in New England for the Pats today, the Pats side of the story in "spygate" New York is yet to be told, and that story may have the NFL looking back at the Jets for their pre-game antics and activites in this bitter rivalry. Consider that just days before the game, the Jets brought into camp the ex-Pats receiver Caldwell.

Why, do you ask if the Jets already had a full complement of receivers and had no intention of signing him?

Well, sources in New England say it was to get the Pats' offensive playbook and the verbal signals Brady uses during the game so that the Jets would know what play was coming - this could explain why the Pats were operating on a different radio frequency between Brady and the Offensive coordinator - they were fearful the Jets were "tapping the wires" of Brady's helmet, and the Jets knew the plays from Caldwell's input so they could defense any Pats play with ease. Regarding the filming of the defensive coaches of the Jets - yes it happened, but not for the reasons everyone thinks.

The Pats were and are accumulating proof to be presented to the NFL on Friday that the Jets set about a scheme to steal the offensive signals electronically from the Pats and to set the defensive scheme based on this --- the Pats crossed the Jets up by going on a different frequency (how else did the Jets know the Pats were on a different frequency if they weren't trying to listen in?).

The Pats were filming the Jets defensive calls so that AFTER the game (not during), they could prove the Jets' tampering to the NFL. We should all wait til Friday to see how this all turns out, but be prepared for a shocking twist to this intiguing story. The Pats did not, and do not need to cheat, and I suspect they did not cheat on Sunday to whip the Jets. Had they been stealing defensive signals from the Jets, you would have seen a lot of audibles at the line by Brady --- and if you review the game tape (as I did ) this was not the case on Sunday.

I do not believe that Mr Kraft would condone this type of action, and Coach B would not risk losing his reputation (and maybe his job) by doing something so blatant and embarrassing to Mr Kraft and the team ...and Brady would NEVER stoop to this type of behavior.

No, ladies and gentlemen, let's just wait to see how this saga unfolds on Friday. If I am wrong, I will go public with a statement of apology to all Jets fans and FanNation, and release my private note to Mr Kraft sent last night, but please save your shots til we hear the other side of this story

http://www.fannation.com/blogs/post/58476

Interesting 'eh?
Larry Broadcast of Boston

I work for a national newspaper. However, I do not work with the sports information staff. Mainstream media stories are factual, and information tends to come directly from the source. Blogging on the other hand has no such standards.

If news was only reported in blogs, it may become nearly impossible sifting through dialogue to find true facts.

What occurs in biased blogging, still has no effect on the press generally.

BigChiefFan
09-12-2007, 02:27 PM
If this is true Bellichek is a disgrace.

Brock
09-12-2007, 02:31 PM
If this is true Bellichek is a disgrace.

If he's a disgrace, then please, let the Chiefs become disgraceful.

Amnorix
09-12-2007, 02:33 PM
If he's a disgrace, then please, let the Chiefs become disgraceful.

ROFL

Donger
09-12-2007, 02:34 PM
Has Peter King chimed in on this yet?

Valiant
09-12-2007, 02:34 PM
I'd honestly give up a 2 this year and a 2 next year for it all to stop right now, and for someone to give BB a great big "dope slap".

I'd give a 2 for the followign year for the Broncos OLine to give Mangini a group cut block for being a backstabbing MF'er too.


How is it Mangini's fault??? His former boss and friend tried to **** him over personally... Mangini knew he had done it to other teams, but probably didn't think BB would do it to him being a former coworker and friend.. What does that say about BB???

Sorry but your homer glasses are extra thick on this...

Valiant
09-12-2007, 02:36 PM
Assholian, perhaps...?

He left the team and flipped us the bird as he went. He tried to steal our coaches, and actually got one (maybe 2). He went to a team in our own division. And not just the Bills. But the freaking Jets.

Let me put it this way -- if Al Saunders had left Dick Vermeil to go coach the Raiders or Broncos (whoever you guys hate the most), and took a coach or two with him, and signed several of your former players, and were strongly suspected of interfering with contract talks with a free agent / franchised player, and then this happened, would Al be on your Xmas card list?

Thought not...


Noen of this, of course, excuses Bill "I was a teenaged genius" Belichick from being so DUMB as to contineu this after he was nearly caught at it last year, and after getting a league-wide warning on this stuff.



All coaches do this when they leave... They take coaches they know and like and promote them on their new team..

You crying about it is just spilled milk... You are acting like this is not done every single time a coach leaves for a new team..

Amnorix
09-12-2007, 02:38 PM
All coaches do this when they leave... They take coaches they know and like and promote them on their new team..

You crying about it is just spilled milk... You are acting like this is not done every single time a coach leaves for a new team..
Not Romeo Crennel, so no, not "every single time".

Valiant
09-12-2007, 02:38 PM
Well, I'm about burnt on this topic. I think I've more than adequately proved, again, that I don't turn tail and run when things don't go so well for my boys.

What a fiasco. And leading up to a HUGE game too. *sigh*


Its not really a fiasco for you as a fan, you still have a playoff bound team that can compete for a superbowl.. And then you have the Chiefs...

Mile High Mania
09-12-2007, 02:40 PM
I'm just glad to see another team that is the 'darling of the league' in trouble...

Valiant
09-12-2007, 02:40 PM
Not Romeo Crennel, so no, not "every single time".


Who wants to go to Cleveland.. And with didn't the O and D coordinator leave at the same time opening up new positions for those guys to take over??

BigChiefFan
09-12-2007, 02:41 PM
If he's a disgrace, then please, let the Chiefs become disgraceful.Yes, please let's sign up to be known as douche-bag cheaters. His championships don't mean shit if he had to cheat to ****ing win-that's means he couldn't win on his own, in other words would have LOST. Again, this is disgraceful.

pikesome
09-12-2007, 02:42 PM
Has Peter King chimed in on this yet?

He's at a Starbucks under suicide watch.

Brock
09-12-2007, 02:45 PM
Yes, please let's sign up to be known as douche-bag cheaters. His championships don't mean shit if he had to cheat to ****ing win-that's means he couldn't win on his own, in other words would have LOST. Again, this is disgraceful.

Yeah, it's a LOT better being known as the team that hasn't accomplished shit in 35 years.

Mecca
09-12-2007, 02:46 PM
Still the class of the league, in the grand scheme of things it's not gonna matter on their road to the Superbowl....

I just think it's great how people are latching on to this to try to say "oh the Pat's cheated to win all their Bowl's" or act like they aren't good, anything to try to take away some dominance to make us feel better about our mediocre team.

Dylan
09-12-2007, 02:49 PM
And Mangini may have really bitten his hand off here. If this is viewed as a "betrayal" by NFL HCs, etc., then he may have greatly reduced his prospects of future employment if/when his Jets job comes to an end. Pure speculation on my part, of course.

I respectfully disagree. In the end, Eric Mangini's broadest value, will be determined by his record as a head coach -- not pretending it doesn't exist.

Mecca
09-12-2007, 02:50 PM
Mangini is so smart he switched the Jets to a 3-4 which they still don't have the players to run...

Extra Point
09-12-2007, 02:53 PM
If Goodell were Ghandi, he would rule that BB raise his grandchildren as Jets fans.

BigChiefFan
09-12-2007, 02:55 PM
Yeah, it's a LOT better being known as the team that hasn't accomplished shit in 35 years.I'd love to have multiple Super Bowl championships, to suggest otherwise is foolish, but I'd rather the team actually earn it than have to cheat to accomplish their goal.

BB is cheater. Wwhy do people cheat because they can't win otherwise. If his team is head and shoulders better than his opponents he wouldn't have to stoop to doing something so disgraceful, now would they?


**************************************************************************************************** **************************************************************************************************** **************************************************************************************************** ************************

Mecca
09-12-2007, 02:58 PM
Ah so here we go now the Pat's aren't any better than us because "well they cheated". I'm sure if we try hard enough we can think of things to say about all the other teams that won too to feel better about not winning.

Count Zarth
09-12-2007, 02:59 PM
Mangini is so smart he switched the Jets to a 3-4 which they still don't have the players to run...

Mangina's an overrated POS.

BucEyedPea
09-12-2007, 03:01 PM
Come on! If it's true this is going on in the league equally by other teams then who really has gained any advantage?

Now that the NFL wants to crack down on it, hand out the penalty to any team that was caught. Then perhaps the league will clean itself up. Isn't that the objective? I, for one, thinks so.

Mecca
09-12-2007, 03:02 PM
They're getting punished for getting caught basically, but anyone who thinks he should be suspended or that their win should be taken is a retard.

pikesome
09-12-2007, 03:03 PM
Ah so here we go now the Pat's aren't any better than us because "well they cheated". I'm sure if we try hard enough we can think of things to say about all the other teams that won too to feel better about not winning.

You're a douche. You know what the point is here and yet on and on you go. Cheating=wrong, end of story. And it makes everything you've done suspicious. Why must you always take the most morally bankrupt stance on everything. Stick to forecasting how bad the Chiefs are going to be this year, you make much more sense doing that.

BucEyedPea
09-12-2007, 03:04 PM
Mangina's an overrated POS.
Mangini is probably doing what BB has done as he learned from him. Most likely due to the strained relationship with the Pat's he wanted to out them, when he may not have done so to anyone else.

I wouldn't be surprised if he feels the heat from other NFL coaches for spilling the beans.

pikesome
09-12-2007, 03:05 PM
Come on! If it's true this is going on in the league equally by other teams then who really has gained any advantage?

Now that the NFL wants to crack down on it, hand out the penalty to any team that was caught. Then perhaps the league will clean itself up. Isn't that the objective? I, for one, thinks so.

If everyone's doing it, it's ok? Don't tell me you've sold your morals to feel good about a football team too.

Mecca
09-12-2007, 03:05 PM
I'm the douche as I watch people call for ridiculous shit....alright man.

It's like I've said before if you think the team or person that gets caught doing something is the only one...I got news for you.

Sports are shady and everyone is doing everything they can to win....

Extra Point
09-12-2007, 03:05 PM
"Although it remains a league matter, I want to apologize to everyone who has been affected, most of all ownership, staff and players. Following the league's decision, I will have further comment." BB

Mecca
09-12-2007, 03:06 PM
If everyone's doing it, it's ok? Don't tell me you've sold your morals to feel good about a football team too.

If you are going to apply moral high ground to sports stop watching because there is none. Seriously if you want to feel that way about sports you'd probably be shocked at how shady things that go on normally are.

BucEyedPea
09-12-2007, 03:10 PM
If everyone's doing it, it's ok? Don't tell me you've sold your morals to feel good about a football team too.
I didn't say that. You gonna put words in my mouth. Look at my first post on this topic and you'll won't find that either. Get off your moral high horse. I was just showing how,if others do it and apparently they do the more I read ( mostly likely Mangini too), then one can't claim there's a serious edge gained for forfeiting games for a penalty.

Amnorix
09-12-2007, 03:12 PM
Why we have two identical threads on thsi I have no idea...

Anyway, let's put this into context. Dan Reeves on sign stealing:


Dan Reeves was interviewed via phone on "Outside the Lines" on ESPN:

According to Reeves he used to have his backup QB try and figure out defensive signals while on the sidelines, and one of his QB's was particularly good at this and usually by half time he'd have their defensive signals figured out.

Reeves claims that really what it helps for is Blitz pickups, but it doesn't always work in game since teams can change their signals. He said a long time ago when he played against Mike Shanahan he actually knew all the Broncos signals because they were still using the same signals but they still couldn't stop the Broncos. He said thet where it can have the biggest effect is by adding the info you gained into a folder of information on that team and after time you can start to figure out their tendencies. Reeves said stealing signals itself is very common and every team does it, but he's not aware of other teams using video cameras to do so.



Now then -- WHY exactly should the Pats be hanged, drawna nd quartered for doing this? Was it rule-breakign? Yes. Should they be punished, yes. But all this nutty, suspend-him-for-the year stuff is SO far out of proportion to the benefit of taping this that it's ridiculous.

I'm not saying we shoudl get off scott free, but what some are posting is crazy. Asterisk on every SB? WTF?!

pikesome
09-12-2007, 03:14 PM
I didn't say that. You gonna put words in my mouth. Look at my first post on this topic and you'll won't find that either. Get off your moral high horse. I was just showing how,if others do it and apparently they do the more I read ( mostly likely Mangini too), then one can't claim there's a serious edge gained for forfeiting games for a penalty.

Utimatly it's not about the edge, it's about knowingly violating the rules. Football isn't mandatory, if Bill did want to follow the rules he could have lobbied for a change or gone somewhere else. This liaise faire attitude towards the rules is bad, just because everyone else does it don't make it right. Especially in an artificially created system such as Pro football.

Amnorix
09-12-2007, 03:17 PM
Don Banks on "cheating" NFL-style, back in July.



1. Pictures are worth a thousand words: The "stealing'' of signs -- both on offense and defense -- is the area that's most often cited as fertile ground for cheating. The most common practice is for a team to videotape an opponent's signal-givers on the sideline, and later marry up those indications to the game tape in order to identify tendencies or patterns.
Though no disciplinary action by the league ever resulted, the Patriots last year were reportedly the impetus of a sternly written letter from the league office to all teams, reminding them that it was illegal for an advance scout or personnel official to bring a video recording device of any kind into the press box for the purposes of taping a potential opponent's signals or play-calling gestures from the sideline.
Teams have also been chastised for having a second camera in the press box-area video box, with one camera shooting the game action and the other one being trained on the opposing team's signal-givers. On offense, that's why coaches have taken to holding their play-calling charts in front of their mouths when they're sending in the play to the quarterback via the radio headset system.
On defense, teams have gone to having two different signal callers, with one being a dummy signaler and other being responsible for the "hot,'' or real, call. Other teams use different color wrist bands during a game, with the defensive captain switching to a different color before each series, and the defensive signal-caller calling formations and blitzes from a list that corresponds with that color.
"That type of sign-stealing goes on a ton in the league,'' said one NFL source who was both a former coach and player in the league. "From a coaching standpoint, you know who's signaling in the personnel on the opposing sideline, and then there's another guy making the play calls on the headset. Defenses used to watch the play-caller, and if a guy spoke for a real long time, that was usually a pass, because the calls take longer. A run is always a shorter call. So coaches shield their mouths when they're calling plays now. If you make your calls out in the open, the other team will steal your signals and your tendencies.''

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/writers/don_banks/07/06/cheating.nfl/index.html

pikesome
09-12-2007, 03:18 PM
Why we have two identical threads on thsi I have no idea...

Anyway, let's put this into context. Dan Reeves on sign stealing:


Dan Reeves was interviewed via phone on "Outside the Lines" on ESPN:

According to Reeves he used to have his backup QB try and figure out defensive signals while on the sidelines, and one of his QB's was particularly good at this and usually by half time he'd have their defensive signals figured out.

Reeves claims that really what it helps for is Blitz pickups, but it doesn't always work in game since teams can change their signals. He said a long time ago when he played against Mike Shanahan he actually knew all the Broncos signals because they were still using the same signals but they still couldn't stop the Broncos. He said thet where it can have the biggest effect is by adding the info you gained into a folder of information on that team and after time you can start to figure out their tendencies. Reeves said stealing signals itself is very common and every team does it, but he's not aware of other teams using video cameras to do so.



Now then -- WHY exactly should the Pats be hanged, drawna nd quartered for doing this? Was it rule-breakign? Yes. Should they be punished, yes. But all this nutty, suspend-him-for-the year stuff is SO far out of proportion to the benefit of taping this that it's ridiculous.

I'm not saying we shoudl get off scott free, but what some are posting is crazy. Asterisk on every SB? WTF?!

I'm 100% with you on the penalty but you have to be aware that every argument from now on about how good the Pats or BB were/are this is going to come up. That's the sad part. Much like Pete Rose's career being clouded because of the gambling or Barry Bond's records (although the evidence is far stronger for Barry).

Amnorix
09-12-2007, 03:19 PM
I wonder how many SBs should have an asterisk next to them because their coaches were better at teaching the illegal pick, and their WRs better at executing them, than most?


5. Making the pick: Is it cheating when offensive coaches teach their receivers to set an illegal pick on a particular route while reminding them to make it look good and accidental? Like the old neighborhood play at second base on the double play in baseball, a receiver setting a pick in football usually won't get flagged unless his work is sloppy and looks egregiously illegal.
Make it appear like the pick was all but unavoidable, and most officials won't reach for the yellow hankie. Thus, it comes down to good technique and good coaching.
"You do get coached on how to make a pick look accidental,'' said a former player. "The offensive coordinator is always reminding the receivers how to set a good pick on this play and keep it looking like the defender ran into you.''

(same link)

Amnorix
09-12-2007, 03:20 PM
I'm 100% with you on the penalty but you have to be aware that every argument from now on about how good the Pats or BB were/are this is going to come up. That's the sad part. Much like Pete Rose's career being clouded because of the gambling or Barry Bond's records (although the evidence is far stronger for Barry).

Seriously, I'll laugh at that because it's just flat absurd.

Mecca
09-12-2007, 03:20 PM
I'm pretty much agreeing with Am on this, yes they should get punished because they were dumb enough to get caught doing it.

But anyone who wants to asterisk the Bowls or suspend a coach for a year or anything like that is being dumb.

Count Zarth
09-12-2007, 03:21 PM
I'd take away all their picks for the next draft. That's fair.

Amnorix
09-12-2007, 03:24 PM
I'd take away all their picks for the next draft. That's fair.

Really? So if it was the Chiefs, you'd say this same thing?

Or the Browns, or some team that sucks?

I personally am thinking soemthing like a 2nd this year, a 2nd next year, something big enough to hurt Belichick in the wallet ($500K?) and something like $5M paid by the Patriots to the Retired Players Association (whatever it's called).

That seems like a serious penalty that WILL hurt a team, but not ridiculously.

An entire set of draft picks? Would the PATRIOTS survive that? Sure. But if you hit a team that doesn't have that much talent with that, you might as well tell that team's FA's to sign elsewhere, and it's fans to go watch a different sport.

You can't cherry pick your penalty to the size/strength/quality of the team in question, now can you?

BucEyedPea
09-12-2007, 03:24 PM
Utimatly it's not about the edge, it's about knowingly violating the rules. Football isn't mandatory, if Bill did want to follow the rules he could have lobbied for a change or gone somewhere else. This liaise faire attitude towards the rules is bad, just because everyone else does it don't make it right. Especially in an artificially created system such as Pro football.
Yeah well I WAS talking about the edge, only in that post, to address those who feel Pats didn't win their SB titles or other wins or to forfeit a game win. That's just not logical if the other teams have been doing it as there really is no edge. Is there? It was a morally neutral statement.

Then I added that if caught, penalize them, and perhaps the rest of the teams will heed the example and clean itself up. Did you get that part or conveniently NOT heed it to make what I said seem otherwise?

How you got I was defending it was right, when seeing my first post on the topic, and saying penalize them if guilty and caught is really a stretch. You seem to have more of an axe to grind with the Pats than anything else.

BigChiefFan
09-12-2007, 03:25 PM
I'm pretty much agreeing with Am on this, yes they should get punished because they were dumb enough to get caught doing it.

But anyone who wants to asterisk the Bowls or suspend a coach for a year or anything like that is being dumb.
You are so ****ing vague and gray, it's not even funny. Wrong is wrong. Cheating is cheating. BB is GUILTY of cheating. If he's done it once, he's probabl;y done it a thousand times, just ask his wife.

You are basically justifying cheating and I'm the one saying absurd things? Maybe you should actually walk with some morals and conviction and you wouldn't be condoning dispicable behavior. BB is a FRAUD.

pikesome
09-12-2007, 03:25 PM
I'm the douche as I watch people call for ridiculous shit....alright man.

No, you're a douche because you don't seem to care one bit about the method, just the end result.

It's like I've said before if you think the team or person that gets caught doing something is the only one...I got news for you.

I'm not arguing it ain't happening, just that it's not ok. No amount of bad behavior by others makes your own (or the Pat's in the case) right.

Sports are shady and everyone is doing everything they can to win....

That's still not a good reason to cheat.

Amnorix
09-12-2007, 03:26 PM
By the way, I expect the penalty to likely be LESS severe than what I've outlined. But I also think we might lose OUR #1 pick next year, partly because we have the Niners' pick in hand.

It sends a message that you could lose a #1, but we still have one left, so it doesn't cripple us... Depends how the Commish wants it viewed aroudn the league I guess.

Mecca
09-12-2007, 03:27 PM
Really? So if it was the Chiefs, you'd say this same thing?

Or the Browns, or some team that sucks?

I personally am thinking soemthing like a 2nd this year, a 2nd next year, something big enough to hurt Belichick in the wallet ($500K?) and something like $5M paid by the Patriots to the Retired Players Association (whatever it's called).

That seems like a serious penalty that WILL hurt a team, but not ridiculously.

An entire set of draft picks? Would the PATRIOTS survive that? Sure. But if you hit a team that doesn't have that much talent with that, you might as well tell that team's FA's to sign elsewhere, and it's fans to go watch a different sport.

You can't cherry pick your penalty to the size/strength/quality of the team in question, now can you?

That's pretty much it man, it's because your team is as good as it is. That's what's fueling this overzealous shit that people are wanting. It's probably a bit of jealously and wanting to knock your team down a few pegs because no one can do it on the field anymore.

pikesome
09-12-2007, 03:27 PM
Seriously, I'll laugh at that because it's just flat absurd.

Look how talk about Denver's SB wins turns around here. I'm not saying it's justified but it wouldn't be an issue if they hadn't been cheating. That's the bad part for the fans.

Mecca
09-12-2007, 03:29 PM
By the way, I expect the penalty to likely be LESS severe than what I've outlined. But I also think we might lose OUR #1 pick next year, partly because we have the Niners' pick in hand.

It sends a message that you could lose a #1, but we still have one left, so it doesn't cripple us... Depends how the Commish wants it viewed aroudn the league I guess.

This board will explode when it comes out because the punishment isn't going to be close to what some of these guys want.....

They won't forfeit any games, there won't be any suspensions, nothing like that.

By the way if BB is a fraud by all means I dream for the Chiefs to become a fraud.

Amnorix
09-12-2007, 03:31 PM
Look how talk about Denver's SB wins turns around here. I'm not saying it's justified but it wouldn't be an issue if they hadn't been cheating. That's the bad part for the fans.

I'm not as familiar with that angle of their cheating. it's their cut blocking I despise.

But every team's K and P used to monkey with the ball. Every team used to play with stickum on their hands, or pam or whatever on their uniforms. Ticky tack stuff doesn't worry me much.

I do agree the Pats should be penalized, but the suggestion that THIS type of cheating was THE reason they won the SBs -- or phrased differently that we wouldn't have won without doing THIS -- makes absolutely no sense at all.

Nothing I've read suggests it's THAT big of an advantage. Seems like one of those "increase your odds by 0.002%" that nut-cakes like BB and other work-obsessed coaches do....

pikesome
09-12-2007, 03:32 PM
Yeah well I WAS talking about the edge, only in that post, to address those who feel Pats didn't win their SB titles or other wins or to forfeit a game win. That's just not logical if the other teams have been doing it as there really is no edge. Is there? It was a morally neutral statement.

Then I added that if caught, penalize them, and perhaps the rest of the teams will heed the example and clean itself up. Did you get that part or conveniently NOT heed it to make what I said seem otherwise?

How you got I was defending it was right, when seeing my first post on the topic, and saying penalize them if guilty and caught is really a stretch. You seem to have more of an axe to grind with the Pats than anything else.

I know and that's not my intention. The talk about how it's not wrong if everyone's doing it is down right sickening though. Lots of people use that to justify their bad behavior. At least in my home, growing up, I never could convince my parents of this and I hope my sons don't grow up thinking the same.

BigChiefFan
09-12-2007, 03:34 PM
This board will explode when it comes out because the punishment isn't going to be close to what some of these guys want.....

They won't forfeit any games, there won't be any suspensions, nothing like that.

By the way if BB is a fraud by all means I dream for the Chiefs to become a fraud.
So people should cheat on their taxes? Cheat on their wives? Cheat out people in general as long as they get what they want? Your lack of morals is very insightful into you in general.


I said BB is a fraud, because by DEFINITION, the word cheat is associated with FRAUD. It's basically the same word. So yes, BB is a fraud. He was found guilty of cheating, so he was found guilty of fraudulent behavior.

As long as he wins, though, right?

pikesome
09-12-2007, 03:36 PM
I'm not as familiar with that angle of their cheating. it's their cut blocking I despise.

But every team's K and P used to monkey with the ball. Every team used to play with stickum on their hands, or pam or whatever on their uniforms. Ticky tack stuff doesn't worry me much.

I do agree the Pats should be penalized, but the suggestion that THIS type of cheating was THE reason they won the SBs -- or phrased differently that we wouldn't have won without doing THIS -- makes absolutely no sense at all.

Nothing I've read suggests it's THAT big of an advantage. Seems like one of those "increase your odds by 0.002%" that nut-cakes like BB and other work-obsessed coaches do....

The Broncos surrendered a draft pick for mis-reporting Elway's cap hit IIRC. They were actually caught cheating. That's one of the things that always gets dug up around here when the topic comes out. Not that we need that much proof of cheating, Denver is on the shit-list here of course.

Count Zarth
09-12-2007, 03:37 PM
Really? So if it was the Chiefs, you'd say this same thing?

Or the Browns, or some team that sucks?

I personally am thinking soemthing like a 2nd this year, a 2nd next year, something big enough to hurt Belichick in the wallet ($500K?) and something like $5M paid by the Patriots to the Retired Players Association (whatever it's called).

That seems like a serious penalty that WILL hurt a team, but not ridiculously.

An entire set of draft picks? Would the PATRIOTS survive that? Sure. But if you hit a team that doesn't have that much talent with that, you might as well tell that team's FA's to sign elsewhere, and it's fans to go watch a different sport.

You can't cherry pick your penalty to the size/strength/quality of the team in question, now can you?

It's fair because who knows how long they've been doing it? They could have been doing this since Belichick arrived.

They'll think twice about doing it next time if the penalty is harsh enough. A second-round pick? Gimme a break.

Amnorix
09-12-2007, 03:37 PM
ummm...could someone pleaes ban this fellow. Thanksmuch...

BigChiefFan
09-12-2007, 03:38 PM
I'm not as familiar with that angle of their cheating. it's their cut blocking I despise.

But every team's K and P used to monkey with the ball. Every team used to play with stickum on their hands, or pam or whatever on their uniforms. Ticky tack stuff doesn't worry me much.

I do agree the Pats should be penalized, but the suggestion that THIS type of cheating was THE reason they won the SBs -- or phrased differently that we wouldn't have won without doing THIS -- makes absolutely no sense at all.

Nothing I've read suggests it's THAT big of an advantage. Seems like one of those "increase your odds by 0.002%" that nut-cakes like BB and other work-obsessed coaches do....

Yea, knowing what the other team's play is going to be doesn't help at all. :rolleyes: How dare the NFL actually ask teams not to cheat, of all the nerve.

Jesus Christ, some of you are living in lala land.

Extra Point
09-12-2007, 03:39 PM
[QUOTE=Amnorix].... Dan Reeves on sign stealing:


Dan Reeves was interviewed via phone on "Outside the Lines" on ESPN:

According to Reeves he used to have his backup QB try and figure out defensive signals while on the sidelines, and one of his QB's was particularly good at this and usually by half time he'd have their defensive signals figured out."

Probably Kubiak was the back-up who was particularly good. We got out-coached and out-played by Houston, who may have a better end-of-season record that the Chiefs, unfortunately.

Amnorix
09-12-2007, 03:41 PM
The Broncos surrendered a draft pick for mis-reporting Elway's cap hit IIRC. They were actually caught cheating. That's one of the things that always gets dug up around here when the topic comes out. Not that we need that much proof of cheating, Denver is on the shit-list here of course.

Yeah, I know. I do remember. I dont' remember the details. Something about a side-deal with Elway.

What I'd really need to know, if an asterisk should apply to their championships, is whether the cheating was critical to their winning the SB.

But let's face it, we're all talking shades of gray. All teams DO cheat in some manner. Over there they chop block outside the tackle box. Over here they were very aggressive on pass defense (interference is int he eyes of the beholder and "let them play" in the playoffs). Somewhere else they practice WR picks.

Oh yeah, and probably 60% of the NFL players are on some type of illegal substance....

Pick your poison.

For the millionth time, this does NOT justify what the Pats did, but if you're going to assign asterisks, you better think long and hard about whether you're really going to require PERFECT players and a MOther Theresa approach to playing a clean game.