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Direckshun
09-13-2007, 03:17 PM
Deserved its own thread.

There is a little nugget of wisdom that estimates that all draft assessments are premature until three years down the road. For the record, I think that's true, but you don't need to wait three years to see how much of an improvement Herm's drafting record is over Vermeil.

2006

1. Hali (starter)
2. Pollard (starter)
3. Croyle (competed to start, backup)
5. Maxey (cut)
6. Stallings (cut)
6. Webb (backup)
7. Page (starter)

2007

1. Bowe (starter)
2. McBride (backup)
3. Tyler (backup)
5. Smith (3rd stringer)
5. Medlock (cut)
6. Taylor (3rd stringer)
7. Allan (practice squad)

It's tempting to say that by the end of the year, Tyler and Croyle could very well be starters.

But there's the assessment so far:

4 starters
4 backups
2 third stringers
1 practice squad
3 cut

Do you think that's decent production from the Draft? Thoughts.

Fish
09-13-2007, 03:19 PM
I'd love to see a rundown of Vermiel's drafts as well... but I don't have the time to do it...

Good thread idea though...

evolve27
09-13-2007, 03:20 PM
Draft grade: C-. Not enough emphasis on our aging line. Especially this year. It all starts up front.

Direckshun
09-13-2007, 03:22 PM
Compare that to Vermeil's 2004 draft class, which has played long enough to warrant an accurate assessment:

2. Siavii (cut)
2. Wilson (starter)
3. Fox (backup)
4. Parker (starter)
4. Allen (starter)
6. McIntyre (cut)
7. Sampson (cut)

So to be fair, Vermeil didn't do that poorly...

3 starters
1 backup
3 cut

HonestChieffan
09-13-2007, 03:22 PM
What meaningless Crap. Just because a draftee is a starter means zilch if all these draftees starting play like shit.

allen_kcCard
09-13-2007, 03:24 PM
I would like to see similar comparisons with the likes of the colts, pats, bears and browns, raiders, falcons.

How many of the good teams are drafting people that make them even better, and how many bad teams are ending up playing the bad players that were bad previously.


I don't care all that much how Herm drafts compared to Dick, I care how well he is drafting compared to people that are still working in football.

Count Zarth
09-13-2007, 03:24 PM
Herm is basically a genius. That's all you need to know.

BigChiefFan
09-13-2007, 03:27 PM
Herm is avery good talent evaluator. Herm isn't the entire problem-that's too covenient to call it the coach, but after 19 years, 14 of which we haven't even WON a playoff game, it's evident who is in charge and pulling the strings. The captain in charge of this shipwreck is Carl and he doesn't get to use Herm as the scapegoat in my book. 19 years, 4 head coaches, numerous players, Winless playoff games for 14 years straight, ONE Carl Peterson.

Mr. Laz
09-13-2007, 03:33 PM
being a starter for a crappy team makes it hard to evaluate and compare.

el borracho
09-13-2007, 03:33 PM
Starting isn't really the ultimate measure of success although it is one indicator. Production and longevity are at least equally important.

John_Wayne
09-13-2007, 03:40 PM
I think that's good drafting. Every team needs backups and third stringers. Out of 14 picks, we've only cut 3. This is Tank and McBride's first year. Tank will be a starter and McBride will be a key player in the rotation. McBride just has two really good veterans in front of him. Webb is on the field and contributing. He might be #4 WR this year and #3 next year. That's fine by me. There are two pro bowlers in front of RB Smith. We can't judge him yet. Geesh! Taylor is on the 53 and contributing as a backup as a rookie! That's not bad for a 6th round pick. Low round tackles can take a few years to break into the starting lineup. Allan was on the 53. He got bumped due to an injury (Kennison). He'll probably be back on the 53. He's got a HoF TE, a secret weapon and the best blocking TE in the NFL in front of him. How can you say he's not a good draft pick. I could criticize Herm about a lot of things. I'm not sold on him yet. But, his drafting ability is better than Carl, Vermiel, Gunther and Marty. In my view, Herm's two drafts are the best back to back drafts we've had in many, many years. Give the guy a break!!!! :cuss:

John_Wayne
09-13-2007, 03:44 PM
Compare that to Vermeil's 2004 draft class, which has played long enough to warrant an accurate assessment:

2. Siavii (cut)
2. Wilson (starter)
3. Fox (backup)
4. Parker (starter)
4. Allen (starter)
6. McIntyre (cut)
7. Sampson (cut)

So to be fair, Vermeil didn't do that poorly...

3 starters
1 backup
3 cut

Wilson and Parker might be starters, but I'd have to add an *** by their name. Parker totally sucks and wouldn't be a 4th WR on most other teams. You know it and I know it. Wilson was stuck on the bench in '04 & '05. He wasn't utilized until Vermiel left town. A new coach finally changed him to another position to get something out of him. I guess Vermiel should get some credit for Allen, but, to be honest, I think he just stumbled upon him. I think he got lucky.

Vermiel's drafts were the WORST! But, he was a pretty good coach. Herm is a good talent evaluator, but it's too soon to judge his coaching skills.

StcChief
09-13-2007, 03:45 PM
Drafts have been good for Herm. let's see how the pan out.

We are rebuilding and can't do it all at once.

lucky (unlucky) if we are .500 in 2007....

Carl's fill the seats approach has finally run it's course IMO.

DMAC
09-13-2007, 03:45 PM
Those guys would probably all be starters if another team drafted them.

ChiefsCountry
09-13-2007, 03:47 PM
Lets look at the Jets Roster, since Herm had more time.

Jets Starters that Herm Drafted
Elite
Jonathan Vilma
Kerry Rhodes

Solid
Jerricho Cotchery
Chris Baker
Dewayne Robertson
Bryan Thomas
Erik Coleman
Mike Nugnent
Dewayne Robertson

phobia's skidmark
09-13-2007, 03:49 PM
What meaningless Crap. Just because a draftee is a starter means zilch if all these draftees starting play like shit.
Hey man you talkin about my people.....

ChiefsCountry
09-13-2007, 03:49 PM
Vermeil's Time with the Chiefs

Starters
Elite
Larry Johnson
Jared Allen
Dustin Colquitt

Solid
Derrick Johnson
Kris Wilson

phobia's skidmark
09-13-2007, 03:50 PM
Draft grade: C-. Not enough emphasis on our aging line. Especially this year. It all starts up front.
Actuall it starts in the rear, just ask the dude who shat me into the world....

Fish
09-13-2007, 03:55 PM
Sifting through the Herm hate is rather amusing in this thread. I thought the idea was great for a discussion, but so far most have chosen to ignore it with some type of excuse to bash Herm.

So far we've got...

Draft sucks cause we didn't address the OLine.

Meaningless cause Herm's draftees are playing like shit.

Don't care cause Vermiel isn't in football anymore.

The team sucks, so starting doesn't matter.

Starting status doesn't matter, only contributes to a player's worth.



Geez guys.... seriously...

OnTheWarpath58
09-13-2007, 03:57 PM
I'd love to see a rundown of Vermiel's drafts as well... but I don't have the time to do it...

Good thread idea though...

DV's 5 drafts.....players rated as (HIT), (MISS) or (SERVICEABLE)

2005

Derrick Johnson (HIT)

Dustin Colquitt (HIT)

Craphonso Thorpe (MISS)

Boomer Grigsby (SERVICEABLE)???

Alphonso Hodge (MISS)

Will Svitek (MISS)

Khari Long (MISS)

James Kilian (MISS)

Jeremy Parquet (MISS)

2004

Junior Siavii (MISS)

Kris Wilson (SERVICEABLE)

Keyaron Fox (SERVICEABLE)

Samie Parker (SERVICEABLE)

Jared Allen (HIT)

Jeris McIntyre (MISS)

Kevin Sampson (MISS)

2003

Larry Johnson (HIT)

Kawika Mitchell (SERVICEABLE)

Julian Battle (MISS)

Brett Williams (MISS)

Jordan Black (MISS)

Jimmy Wilkerson (SERVICEABLE)

Montique Sharpe (MISS)

Willie Pile (MISS)

2002

Ryan Sims (MISS)

Eddie Freeman (MISS)

Omar Easy (MISS)

Scott Fujita (SERVICEABLE)

Maurice Rodriguez (MISS)

2001

Eric Downing (MISS)

Marvin Minnis (MISS)

Monty Beisel (MISS)

George Layne (MISS)

Billy Baber (MISS)

Derrick Blaylock (SERVICEABLE)

Alex Sulfsted (MISS)

Shaunard Harts (MISS)

Terdell Sands (MISS)



4 "hits" in 5 years.

26 "misses"

8 "serviceable" (and some of those only because of ST)


:shake:

HemiEd
09-13-2007, 03:58 PM
Compare that to Vermeil's 2004 draft class, which has played long enough to warrant an accurate assessment:

2. Siavii (cut)
2. Wilson (starter)
3. Fox (backup)
4. Parker (starter)
4. Allen (starter)
6. McIntyre (cut)
7. Sampson (cut)

So to be fair, Vermeil didn't do that poorly...

3 starters
1 backup
3 cut

Lets not forget, Trent Green and Dick were 1st and 2nd round draft choices. :D Hermie was only a 4th.

HonestChieffan
09-13-2007, 04:01 PM
From the other side, this would be a good point if they were a good team with these players. They are not.

Woodrow Call
09-13-2007, 04:04 PM
DV's 5 drafts.....players rated as (HIT), (MISS) or (SERVICEABLE)


:Lin:

OnTheWarpath58
09-13-2007, 04:06 PM
:Lin:


Just curious, AB....any argument with any of my rankings?

I actually thought I was being pretty generous in a couple of instances....

orange
09-13-2007, 04:09 PM
Just curious, AB....any argument with any of my rankings?

I actually thought I was being pretty generous in a couple of instances....


Sims looked like a good pick in years 1-2... Tyler and McBride are no better at this point.

And Downing and Siavii at least gave the appearance of serviceable.

orange
09-13-2007, 04:12 PM
As for 2007, Bowe is only a starter by injury/default so far.

DaFace
09-13-2007, 04:14 PM
DV's 5 drafts.....players rated as (HIT), (MISS) or (SERVICEABLE)

Is anyone bored enough to run through a similar comparison for Herm's drafts over the past five years?

OnTheWarpath58
09-13-2007, 04:15 PM
Sims looked like a good pick in years 1-2... Tyler and McBride are no better at this point.

Which makes Sims even more of a bust, IMO.

Here's 2 guys drafted late in the 2nd and 3rd rounds who are already showing as much as a #6 overall pick.

And Downing and Siavii at least gave the appearance of serviceable.

No, Downing and Siavii were warm bodies at best.

Serviceable means you have the ability to make a contribution when your number is called. Neither did.

orange
09-13-2007, 04:17 PM
As for 2007, Bowe is only a starter by injury/default so far.


And I should have added, Croyle has nothing but MISS written all over him.

keg in kc
09-13-2007, 04:18 PM
Draft evaluation is very difficult. Particularly if you're trying to do it team-versus-team, because the reality is that the best teams have drafted well for years, and due to that have the luxury of making more popular 'need' picks.

We do not.

The reality is that our drafts parallel our playoff futility; the last really strong draft class in KC (IMO, of course) was all the way back in 1993. That's not to say there haven't been excellent individual players, even a hall of famer, but overall, the drafts have been more often than not bad, overall, for a very long time. Since about 1998, it's only gotten worse.

When Herm arrived, he was tasked with rebuilding a roster with virtually no core of young talent. Vermeil floundered in the draft for 5 years, and because of that the cupboard was (and to a degree still is) bare.

Which leaves us in the position of drafting solely on talent, with many more holes to fill than picks to use.

I think he's done an admirable job to this point, and I believe his draft classes in 2006 and 2007 would compare favorably with anyone, at this point in time. Nearly every pick is contributing on the roster in some manner, and many are starting, already, in their rookie or 1st year. Undrafted players are contributing, as well. It does not appear that they've simply been handed jobs, either (exceptions being Hali and Bowe, and that's standard with 1st round picks). Younger players (with one glaring exception) have beaten veteran players through competition in camp. They've earned jobs, and they're progressing on the field in live-fire situations.

He's doing it the right way, I believe. Another year or two of this and we'll be extremely talented, and young to boot, with the core of the team being in the 23-26-year old range.

As long as Peterson stays out of his way.

This is how good franchises do it. Build the core through the draft (and sometimes it takes a high pick to use as a centerpiece of the team) and then add free agents as available and where needed. What we did for a decade and a half prior simply did not work. Although, to the team's credit, they have established a fan base that seems relatively satisfied with lackluster results.

keg in kc
09-13-2007, 04:19 PM
Sims never, at any point, looked like a good pick, except perhaps during the period immediately following the draft.

Woodrow Call
09-13-2007, 04:21 PM
Just curious, AB....any argument with any of my rankings?

I actually thought I was being pretty generous in a couple of instances....

Not at all. Good run down in my opinion.

CoMoChief
09-13-2007, 04:22 PM
Vermeil's Time with the Chiefs

Starters
Elite
Larry Johnson
Jared Allen
Dustin Colquitt

Solid
Derrick Johnson
Kris Wilson

Larry Johnson was Carl's pick. DV didn't want to draft him. I'd say that selection doesn't or shouldn't count. No punter is ever "elite" and Derrick Johnson shouldn't count either because the football gods miracled his ass to the 15th pick.

Other than Jared Allen, DV drafts amounted to shit.

B_Ambuehl
09-13-2007, 04:22 PM
Just because a guy is new and becomes a starter doesn't necessarily mean he's better than the guy he's replacing. Most fans think just because someone is new he's automatically bad ass. In 5 years people will probably be saying how much Pollard and Hali suck.

OnTheWarpath58
09-13-2007, 04:23 PM
Is anyone bored enough to run through a similar comparison for Herm's drafts over the past five years?

His last 2 are already listed. Here's his other 3 with the Jets, though I don't think it's a fair comparison. We've had time to see how ALL of DV's draftees have panned out. The jury is still out on a lot of guys for Herm the past 2 years:

2005

Mike Nugent K Ohio State
Justin Miller DB Clemson
Sione Pouha DT Utah
Kerry Rhodes DB Louisville
Andre Maddox DB North Carolina State
Cedric Houston RB Tennessee
Joel Dreessen TE Colorado State
Harry Williams WR Tuskegee

2004

Jonathan Vilma LB Miami (FL)
Derrick Strait DB Oklahoma
Jerricho Cotchery WR North Carolina State
Adrian Jones T Kansas
Erik Coleman DB Washington State
Marko Cavka T Sacramento State
Darrell McClover LB Miami (FL)
Trevor Johnson DE Nebraska
Derrick Ward RB (Starter w/Giants now, Jacobs injury)
Rashad Washington DB Kansas State

2003

Dewayne Robertson DT Kentucky
Victor Hobson LB Michigan
B.J. Askew RB Michigan
Derek Pagel DB Iowa
Matthew Walters DE Miami (FL)
Brooks Bollinger QB Wisconsin
Dave Yovanovits T Temple

OnTheWarpath58
09-13-2007, 04:24 PM
Draft evaluation is very difficult. Particularly if you're trying to do it team-versus-team, because the reality is that the best teams have drafted well for years, and due to that have the luxury of making more popular 'need' picks.

We do not.

The reality is that our drafts parallel our playoff futility; the last really strong draft class in KC (IMO, of course) was all the way back in 1993. That's not to say there haven't been excellent individual players, even a hall of famer, but overall, the drafts have been more often than not bad, overall, for a very long time. Since about 1998, it's only gotten worse.

When Herm arrived, he was tasked with rebuilding a roster with virtually no core of young talent. Vermeil floundered in the draft for 5 years, and because of that the cupboard was (and to a degree still is) bare.

Which leaves us in the position of drafting solely on talent, with many more holes to fill than picks to use.

I think he's done an admirable job to this point, and I believe his draft classes in 2006 and 2007 would compare favorably with anyone, at this point in time. Nearly every pick is contributing on the roster in some manner, and many are starting, already, in their rookie or 1st year. Undrafted players are contributing, as well. It does not appear that they've simply been handed jobs, either (exceptions being Hali and Bowe, and that's standard with 1st round picks). Younger players (with one glaring exception) have beaten veteran players through competition in camp. They've earned jobs, and they're progressing on the field in live-fire situations.

He's doing it the right way, I believe. Another year or two of this and we'll be extremely talented, and young to boot, with the core of the team being in the 23-26-year old range.

As long as Peterson stays out of his way.

This is how good franchises do it. Build the core through the draft (and sometimes it takes a high pick to use as a centerpiece of the team) and then add free agents as available and where needed. What we did for a decade and a half prior simply did not work. Although, to the team's credit, they have established a fan base that seems relatively satisfied with lackluster results.

Excellent post. Rep.

orange
09-13-2007, 04:28 PM
Sims never, at any point, looked like a good pick, except perhaps during the period immediately following the draft.

In 2003 (his second season), Sims started 16 games, had over 30 tackles, 3 sacks, and an interception.

Sorry, but that's pretty damn good for a DT.

keg in kc
09-13-2007, 04:33 PM
In 2003 (his second season), Sims started 16 games, had over 30 tackles, 3 sacks, and an interception.

Name me a meaningful play the guy made that season and you might have the barest foundation for an argument. Blind stats do not mean a whole lot. That's like people arguing that Mike Maslowski was a good linebacker because he lead the team in tackles for a year or two. There's guys who are on the field, and there are guys who make plays.

To his credit, Sims was at least able to be a guy on the field. For one season.

And in the end, it's a meaningless point (for both of us) in face of the the larger discussion. Sims was a bust, one of many.

Jenson71
09-13-2007, 04:34 PM
2002

Ryan Sims (MISS)

Eddie Freeman (MISS)

Omar Easy (MISS)

Scott Fujita (SERVICEABLE)

Maurice Rodriguez (MISS)

2001

Eric Downing (MISS)

Marvin Minnis (MISS)

Monty Beisel (MISS)

George Layne (MISS)

Billy Baber (MISS)

Derrick Blaylock (SERVICEABLE)

Alex Sulfsted (MISS)

Shaunard Harts (MISS)

Terdell Sands (MISS)

Damn that is horrible.

John_Wayne
09-13-2007, 04:34 PM
Vermeil's Time with the Chiefs

Starters
Elite
Larry Johnson
Jared Allen
Dustin Colquitt

Solid
Derrick Johnson
Kris Wilson

How do you call Kris Wilson "solid"? He never played while Vermiel was here. He has 3 catches over two years or something like that.

John_Wayne
09-13-2007, 04:36 PM
DV's 5 drafts.....players rated as (HIT), (MISS) or (SERVICEABLE)

2005

Derrick Johnson (HIT)

Dustin Colquitt (HIT)

Craphonso Thorpe (MISS)

Boomer Grigsby (SERVICEABLE)???

Alphonso Hodge (MISS)

Will Svitek (MISS)

Khari Long (MISS)

James Kilian (MISS)

Jeremy Parquet (MISS)

2004

Junior Siavii (MISS)

Kris Wilson (SERVICEABLE)

Keyaron Fox (SERVICEABLE)

Samie Parker (SERVICEABLE)

Jared Allen (HIT)

Jeris McIntyre (MISS)

Kevin Sampson (MISS)

2003

Larry Johnson (HIT)

Kawika Mitchell (SERVICEABLE)

Julian Battle (MISS)

Brett Williams (MISS)

Jordan Black (MISS)

Jimmy Wilkerson (SERVICEABLE)

Montique Sharpe (MISS)

Willie Pile (MISS)

2002

Ryan Sims (MISS)

Eddie Freeman (MISS)

Omar Easy (MISS)

Scott Fujita (SERVICEABLE)

Maurice Rodriguez (MISS)

2001

Eric Downing (MISS)

Marvin Minnis (MISS)

Monty Beisel (MISS)

George Layne (MISS)

Billy Baber (MISS)

Derrick Blaylock (SERVICEABLE)

Alex Sulfsted (MISS)

Shaunard Harts (MISS)

Terdell Sands (MISS)



4 "hits" in 5 years.

26 "misses"

8 "serviceable" (and some of those only because of ST)


:shake:

This makes the picture very clear. Vermiel's drafts were terrible. No wonder the team got so old, so fast.

OnTheWarpath58
09-13-2007, 04:37 PM
How do you call Kris Wilson "solid"? He never played while Vermiel was here. He has 3 catches over two years or something like that.

I think he's saying it's turned out to be a decent pick.

God knows DV didn't have the foggiest clue how to use Bigfoot.....

Had he been used properly from the get-go, he MIGHT be more than "serviceable" now.......

OnTheWarpath58
09-13-2007, 04:39 PM
This makes the picture very clear. Vermiel's drafts were terrible. No wonder the team got so old, so fast.

Yep.


Especially on offense. LJ is the only star on the offense under the age of 30.

Hell, we only have 3 starters period under the age of 30.

(Parker, Wilson, LJ)

lancer348
09-13-2007, 04:40 PM
It's difficult to grade drafts, because you also have a variable called player development that you cannot account for.

Plus, for Example, Jared Allen is more talented than any player ever drafted by Herm, so why does he only count the same as a regular player.

I don't see a lot of stars in Herm's drafts either.

Bottom line is that for almost 2 decades the chiefs haven't really drafted or developed players that well, regardless of who was the coach.

the Talking Can
09-13-2007, 04:42 PM
those 2001-02 drafts are brutal...that kills a franchise

one more solid draft and we will be good shape, except of course at the most important position on the team - QB...who knows what Carl will do there (and it WILL be Carl's decision)...I only wish we didn't have a Neanderthal like Herm coaching the offense...he needs to be a draft consultant, or waterboy...

imagine a top 5 pick next year, in every round?

on ESPN College live everyone (May and that other white dude) is picking Woodson (Kentucky) to be a better pro QB than Brohm...just fyi, watching it right now...

as much despair as I feel about this franchise's refusal to groom a QB, for the sole reason of appeasing cry-baby 9-7 loving knuckle dragging mediocrity-craving fans, we're 2/3 of the way to a good young team...oh well, Carl will fucg it up somehow...probably by signing Herm to a 10 year contract...

OnTheWarpath58
09-13-2007, 04:43 PM
We need to pray that these young CB's develop into decent players quickly, so we can focus on rebuilding the OL.

Likely Weigmann's last year.

Likely Turley's last year.

You never know with Waters, McIntosh and Welbourne.

I could see any of those 3 leave in the next year or two.

orange
09-13-2007, 04:45 PM
...

And in the end, it's a meaningless point (for both of us) in face of the the larger discussion. Sims was a bust, one of many.

The reason Sims is relevant is that he's a prime example of why no one should get too worked up about players like McBride, Tyler, or Bowe who haven't done anything yet.

It's too early to put them in the "HIT" category.

Woodrow Call
09-13-2007, 04:45 PM
on ESPN College live everyone (May and that other white dude) is picking Woodson (Kentucky) to be a better pro QB than Brohm...just fyi, watching it right now...



Agree with them on Woodson. I think he is going be a stud QB and he has turned a traditionally bad program around. I'd pick him over Brohm right now.

OnTheWarpath58
09-13-2007, 04:51 PM
It's difficult to grade drafts, because you also have a variable called player development that you cannot account for.

Plus, for Example, Jared Allen is more talented than any player ever drafted by Herm, so why does he only count the same as a regular player.

I don't see a lot of stars in Herm's drafts either.

Bottom line is that for almost 2 decades the chiefs haven't really drafted or developed players that well, regardless of who was the coach.

I'm not saying they are all stars, but I'd say this list looks pretty damn good:

Mike Nugent
Kerry Rhodes
Jonathan Vilma
Jerrico Cotchery
Eric Coleman
Derrick Ward
Dewayne Robertson
Victor Hobson
Santana Moss
LaMont Jordan
Kareem McKensie

Micjones
09-13-2007, 04:53 PM
I think Herm's a great evaluator of talent.
It's X's, O's, offense, and game management that confuse him.

OnTheWarpath58
09-13-2007, 04:54 PM
It's too early to put them in the "HIT" category.

Nobody has done that.

Go back and read the thread.

I don't even have them LISTED.

The thread starter has them listed as BACKUPS.

OnTheWarpath58
09-13-2007, 04:54 PM
Agree with them on Woodson. I think he is going be a stud QB and he has turned a traditionally bad program around. I'd pick him over Brohm right now.

Me too.

orange
09-13-2007, 04:55 PM
YOU don't have them listed, but Direckshun does, including Bowe as a Starter.

OnTheWarpath58
09-13-2007, 04:58 PM
YOU don't have them listed, but Direckshun does, including Bowe as a Starter.

AS BACKUPS!!

READING COMPREHENSION IS YOUR FRIEND.

BOWE IS A STARTER.

orange
09-13-2007, 05:00 PM
...

BOWE IS A STARTER.


by DEFAULT due to injury.

He's still second string on the Depth Chart: http://www.kcchiefs.com/depth_chart/

orange
09-13-2007, 05:02 PM
READING COMPREHENSION IS YOUR FRIEND...



Since your HIT/MISS list doesn't include Herm's Chiefs picks, I've had to interpret them, not read them.

Actually writing something is your friend if you want someone to read it.

Valiant
09-13-2007, 05:05 PM
YOU don't have them listed, but Direckshun does, including Bowe as a Starter.


You are not arguing with Direckshun.. He gave you his list and you are bringing out shit he did not say.. You are being a trolling piece of shit just looking for an argument right now..

Valiant
09-13-2007, 05:07 PM
Since your HIT/MISS list doesn't include Herm's Chiefs picks, I've had to interpret them, not read them.

Actually writing something is your friend if you want someone to read it.


Or it could be that in one or two years of Herms picks you cannot fully say solid contributor or bust yet on this team..

orange
09-13-2007, 05:07 PM
You are not arguing with Direckshun.. He gave you his list and you are bringing out shit he did not say.. You are being a trolling piece of shit just looking for an argument right now..


BS. Where exactly does OntheWarpath58 give his evaluation of Herm's Chiefs picks?

I am clearly and intentionally disagreeing with Direckshun, who is only the original poster of this thread, by the way.

Valiant
09-13-2007, 05:12 PM
BS. Where exactly does OntheWarpath58 give his evaluation of Herm's Chiefs picks?

I am clearly and intentionally disagreeing with Direckshun, who is only the original poster of this thread, by the way.



He doesn't that is my point.. He has not graded them yet because rookies and 2nd year players for the Chiefs is not enough time.. Again with reading comprehension..

He graded the Jets drafts that included Herm since that is a more accurate factor comparing the years against DV..


Again you are just trolling for an argument...


Then wait and argue with Direckshun...

OnTheWarpath58
09-13-2007, 05:15 PM
BS. Where exactly does OntheWarpath58 give his evaluation of Herm's Chiefs picks?

I am clearly and intentionally disagreeing with Direckshun, who is only the original poster of this thread, by the way.


You're clearly and intentionally an idiot.

Direckshun hasn't EVALUATED anything.

He's merely said where these players stand on the depth chart.

The ONLY opinion he gave is that Turk/Tank COULD be starters by the end of the year.

And DT is a position that Starter/Reserve doesn't mean nearly as much because we cycle guys in.

orange
09-13-2007, 05:17 PM
Let me make it plain.

I DISAGREE with Direckshun's analysis of Herm's Chiefs drafts.

I think the jury is out on Tyler And McBride at the very least; using OntheWarpath58's analysis of Vermiel's drafts, I'm pointing out that other players (notably Sims) looked good early too, but didn't pan out.

I think also that listing Bowe as a Starter is ridiculous at this point.

There.

Now, as to whether I'm disagreeing with OntheWarpath58's interpretation of Herm's drafts for the Chiefs, I really have NO idea whether I disagree or not on ANY of his points... since he HASN'T made any points.

orange
09-13-2007, 05:19 PM
...
But there's the assessment so far:

4 starters
4 backups
2 third stringers
1 practice squad
3 cut

Do you think that's decent production from the Draft? Thoughts.


My thoughts? NO... as I layed out already.

orange
09-13-2007, 05:22 PM
And I'll be even more specific:

I think Croyle and McBride are wasted picks, and Pollard is no better than Wesley.

Page will always be limited - he doesn't tackle.

Webb is a future cut, but only a late pick so it doesn't really matter.


In short, I see no great improvement on Vermeil's drafting record.

orange
09-13-2007, 05:27 PM
...

Direckshun hasn't EVALUATED anything.




...but you don't need to wait three years to see how much of an improvement Herm's drafting record is over Vermeil.


READING COMPREHENSION IS YOUR FRIEND.

Fish
09-13-2007, 05:27 PM
And I'll be even more specific:

I think Croyle and McBride are wasted picks, and Pollard is no better than Wesley.

Page will always be limited - he doesn't tackle.

Webb is a future cut, but only a late pick so it doesn't really matter.


In short, I see no great improvement on Vermeil's drafting record.

You're not considering any of Herm's drafts other than the ones at KC.. Add those into your argument and maybe someone will take you seriously... but probably not.

OnTheWarpath58
09-13-2007, 05:29 PM
You're not considering any of Herm's drafts other than the ones at KC.. Add those into your argument and maybe someone will take you seriously... but probably not.

I doubt that other Broncos fans take him seriously......

orange
09-13-2007, 05:33 PM
You're not considering any of Herm's drafts other than the ones at KC.. Add those into your argument and maybe someone will take you seriously... but probably not.


I really could care less whether I'm taken seriously by people who think Croyle should be a starter based on his performance to date.


Answer me directly:

Is Croyle any good?

Is McBride any good?

Is Webb any good?

Has Pollard outperformed Wesley?

Is Page a stud tackler?

Has Bowe done anything to merit a starting assignment other than being a high draft choice?

orange
09-13-2007, 05:36 PM
Oh, and since you're back, OntheWarpath58, answer a direct question.

Did Direckshun offer an evaluation of Herm's drafts for the Chiefs or not?





...you don't need to wait three years to see how much of an improvement Herm's drafting record is over Vermeil.

Fish
09-13-2007, 05:38 PM
I really could care less whether I'm taken seriously by people who think Croyle should be a starter based on his performance to date.


Answer me directly:

Is Croyle any good?

Is McBride any good?

Is Webb any good?

Has Pollard outperformed Wesley?

Is Page a stud tackler?

Has Bowe done anything to merit a starting assignment other than being a high draft choice?

Quit hiding behind the "unproven" sign and talk about his past drafts then. We don't have to guess how Herm's last 2 drafts may turn out. Compare Herm's 01-04 to DV's. At this point any of those players has gotten through the unproven stage.

Discuss that like we're trying to do here or STFU with the deflective arguments.

orange
09-13-2007, 05:41 PM
Quit hiding behind the "unproven" sign and talk about his past drafts then. We don't have to guess how Herm's last 2 drafts may turn out. Compare Herm's 01-04 to DV's. At this point any of those players has gotten through the unproven stage.

Discuss that like we're trying to do here or STFU with the deflective arguments.


I really don't have a clue about the Jets, except that they're kind of mediocre.

You tell me...

Is there anyone on that Jets list drafted by Herm better than Larry Johnson or Jarrad Allen, brought to the Chiefs by Vermeil?

orange
09-13-2007, 05:44 PM
As for "deflection," I just plainly labelled about a half dozen guys - guys Direckshun is touting - as bad picks, and asked anyone to prove me wrong. It doesn't get any more direct than that.

Extra Point
09-13-2007, 05:46 PM
I really don't have a clue about the Jets, except that they're kind of mediocre.

You tell me...

Is there anyone on that Jets list drafted by Herm better than Larry Johnson or Jarrad Allen, brought to the Chiefs by Vermeil?
Hali, Tyler. NEXT!!!

orange
09-13-2007, 05:48 PM
ROFL I really don't have a clue about the Jets, except that they're kind of mediocre.

You tell me...

Is there anyone on that Jets list drafted by Herm better than Larry Johnson or Jarrad Allen, brought to the Chiefs by Vermeil?


Hali, Tyler. NEXT!!!


Speaking of READING COMPREHENSION. ROFL ROFL

Fish
09-13-2007, 05:49 PM
I really don't have a clue about the Jets, except that they're kind of mediocre.

You tell me...

Is there anyone on that Jets list drafted by Herm better than Larry Johnson or Jarrad Allen, brought to the Chiefs by Vermeil?

That's right, you don't have a clue.

Now you're trying to make it about 2 superstar players who you've randomly drawn out of the drafting class hat. Including LJ, who Vermeil didn't want to draft. Publicly admitted he didn't want to draft.... then followed that up with the diaper comment after being forced to draft him by the evil GM.

Your knowledge of this is pretty evident. You can piss off now....

orange
09-13-2007, 05:54 PM
That's right, you don't have a clue.

Now you're trying to make it about 2 superstar players who you've randomly drawn out of the drafting class hat. Including LJ, who Vermeil didn't want to draft. Publicly admitted he didn't want to draft.... then followed that up with the diaper comment after being forced to draft him by the evil GM.

Your knowledge of this is pretty evident. You can piss off now....

In other words, NO, Herm's drafts for the Jets WERE NOT AS GOOD AS Vermeil's drafts for the Chiefs.

And you furthermore can offer NOTHING to contradict my dissing of those Herm Chiefs picks.

Sold!

Count Zarth
09-13-2007, 06:00 PM
Herm's drafts for the Jets WERE NOT AS GOOD AS Vermeil's drafts for the Chiefs.


What?

You're insane.

orange
09-13-2007, 06:03 PM
Prove it. No one else here can. List all the star players Herm drafted for the Jets.

Compare his average picks to Vermeil's average Chiefs picks.

Go on, do it. I freely admit to little knowledge of the Jets. Enlighten me.

While you're at it, maybe you'd like to answer Direckshun's original question.

Fish
09-13-2007, 06:05 PM
In other words, NO, Herm's drafts for the Jets WERE NOT AS GOOD AS Vermeil's drafts for the Chiefs.

And you furthermore can offer NOTHING to contradict my dissing of those Herm Chiefs picks.

Sold!

Santana Moss
LaMont Jordan
Jonathan Vilma
Kerry Rhodes
Mike Nugent
Jerricho Cotchery
Dewayne Robertson

Yeah.... compare that to Vermeil's beauties through the same time period.

And in your own words, the jury is still out on Herm's KC picks.

But feel free to spin it in another direction, as you can't hold a discussion on the topic we're discussing...

orange
09-13-2007, 06:05 PM
...

Is Croyle any good?

Is McBride any good?

Is Webb any good?

Has Pollard outperformed Wesley?

Is Page a stud tackler?

Has Bowe done anything to merit a starting assignment other than being a high draft choice?


Or maybe respond to MY questions.

OnTheWarpath58
09-13-2007, 06:07 PM
Prove it. No one else here can. List all the star players Herm drafted for the Jets.

Compare his average picks to Vermeil's average Chiefs picks.

Go on, do it. I freely admit to little knowledge of the Jets. Enlighten me.

While you're at it, maybe you'd like to answer Direckshun's original question.

I'm not wasting that kind of time to try to "prove" something to a Bronco fan who's sole purpose is to troll the board.

If you can't tell the difference between the 11 players listed in post 49, and every other player DV drafted except LJ and Jared Allen, then you're brain dead.

Which I think anyone who has been subjected to your mindless drivel already knows......

Fish
09-13-2007, 06:08 PM
Or maybe respond to MY questions.

Is Croyle any good? Yes

Is McBride any good? Yes

Is Webb any good? Yes

Has Pollard outperformed Wesley? Yes

Is Page a stud tackler? Not really

Has Bowe done anything to merit a starting assignment other than being a high draft choice? Longest catches in a regular season game so far...

Halfcan
09-13-2007, 06:13 PM
herm is a dipshit-he has fugged this team beyond repair.

Count Zarth
09-13-2007, 06:15 PM
herm is a dipshit-he has fugged this team beyond repair.

How so? The talent base on this roster is the best it's been in years.

orange
09-13-2007, 06:17 PM
Santana Moss - gone
LaMont Jordan - gone

New York Jets Pro Bowlers:
2006 CB-KR Justin Miller
2005 LB Jonathan Vilma CB Ty Law
2000 RB Richie Anderson LB Mo Lewis

http://www.newyorkjets.com/team/pro_bowlers

Oh yeah, they're star-studded alright.

Fish
09-13-2007, 06:18 PM
Santana Moss - gone
LaMont Jordan - gone

New York Jets Pro Bowlers:
2006 CB-KR Justin Miller
2005 LB Jonathan Vilma CB Ty Law
2000 RB Richie Anderson LB Mo Lewis

http://www.newyorkjets.com/team/pro_bowlers

ROFL

You're not very good at this are you?

At least utter stupidity is amusing....

orange
09-13-2007, 06:21 PM
At least utter stupidity is amusing....


You certainly are!

orange
09-13-2007, 06:22 PM
Herm Edwards - five years drafting for the Jets - ONE Pro Bowl appearance.


... and you're reduced to listing players they got rid of (Jordan, Moss) as their stars.

Count Zarth
09-13-2007, 06:25 PM
Herm Edwards - five years drafting for the Jets - ONE Pro Bowl appearance.


... and you're reduced to listing players they got rid of (Jordan, Moss) as their stars.

That makes no difference whatsoever. Neither do Pro Bowls. Every player drafted isn't going to be a Pro Bowler. Jared Allen was probably Vermeil's best draft pick, and he hasn't gone to a Pro Bowl.

OnTheWarpath58
09-13-2007, 06:26 PM
Herm Edwards - five years drafting for the Jets - ONE Pro Bowl appearance.


... and you're reduced to listing players they got rid of (Jordan, Moss) as their stars.

In the same timeframe, your beloved Broncos have drafted ONE Pro Bowl player........

Guess Shanahan and Bowlen are ****ing retards......

orange
09-13-2007, 06:27 PM
Is Croyle any good? Yes

Is McBride any good? Yes

Is Webb any good? Yes

Has Pollard outperformed Wesley? Yes

Is Page a stud tackler? Not really

Has Bowe done anything to merit a starting assignment other than being a high draft choice? Longest catches in a regular season game so far...

McBride has been invisible.

Webb - has he cracked the 3-catch barrier yet?

Pollard - I only saw him for a few seconds last week. I wonder if you can guess which play it was.

Bowe's totals, pre-season and regular season so far - 4 catches, 4 drops.


And I LIKE the Bowe pick, just not yet.

Fish
09-13-2007, 06:27 PM
You certainly are!

Yeah.... Santana Moss.... pro bowler... but he doesn't play for the team that drafted him anymore, so it doesn't count.... ROFL And Jared Allen, the other name you dropped as justification for DV's better drafts, has never been to the pro bowl... ROFL

Wow... you're really looking like a clueless troll here bub.... and you're just about out of possible deflections from the topic...

orange
09-13-2007, 06:28 PM
That makes no difference whatsoever. Neither do Pro Bowls. Every player drafted isn't going to be a Pro Bowler. Jared Allen was probably Vermeil's best draft pick, and he hasn't gone to a Pro Bowl.

Larry Johnson?

OnTheWarpath58
09-13-2007, 06:28 PM
That makes no difference whatsoever. Neither do Pro Bowls. Every player drafted isn't going to be a Pro Bowler. Jared Allen was probably Vermeil's best draft pick, and he hasn't gone to a Pro Bowl.

He contiunes to change the argument to whatever is convenient for him.

He wanted a list of players that were better than the players DV drafted. We gave him a list of 11.

Now, he's muttering about Pro Bowls.

NaptownChief
09-13-2007, 06:29 PM
I'm sure this has probably already been said but I am too lazy to go back and read everything....but does it really matter how many draft picks are starting if the team really sucks?

Any team in the league could theorhetically start absolutely every draft pick from the previous few drafts if they didn't care about being good.

What matters is if they are starting and making your team better at winning games.

orange
09-13-2007, 06:29 PM
Yeah.... Santana Moss.... pro bowler...

For WHO? Funny, the JETS don't list him on their site.

Just like the Chiefs don't get credit for Lilja.

OnTheWarpath58
09-13-2007, 06:30 PM
Larry Johnson?

For the eleventy-billionth time, it's been well documented that DV did not want LJ and that Carl made the final decision to draft him.

Another case where you read what you want to read.

orange
09-13-2007, 06:32 PM
For the eleventy-billionth time, it's been well documented that DV did not want LJ and that Carl made the final decision to draft him.

Another case where you read what you want to read.

Doesn't matter. He was drafted on Vermeil's watch. Just like every player drafted by the Jets that you're crediting to Edwards, or every recent Chiefs pick that you're crediting to Edwards.

OnTheWarpath58
09-13-2007, 06:33 PM
Still waiting for a response to Post 90......

orange
09-13-2007, 06:34 PM
He contiunes to change the argument to whatever is convenient for him.

He wanted a list of players that were better than the players DV drafted. We gave him a list of 11.

Now, he's muttering about Pro Bowls.

I asked who the Jets drafted that was better than Allen or Johnson. I can post the damn message link if you need it.

And are you EVER going to answer my question? Did Direckshun offer an evaluation of Herm's Chiefs drafts or not?

Fish
09-13-2007, 06:35 PM
For WHO? Funny, the JETS don't list him on their site.

Just like the Chiefs don't get credit for Lilja.

You've deflected yourself into a corner here.... your argument has been reduced to who drafted more probowlers, who are still on the same team that drafted them.... and you still don't win the argument....

orange
09-13-2007, 06:36 PM
In the same timeframe, your beloved Broncos have drafted ONE Pro Bowl player........

Guess Shanahan and Bowlen are ****ing retards......


Has absolutely NOTHING to do with THIS topic, I'm afraid, which is to compare Edwards' CHIEFS Drafts with Vermeil's CHIEFS drafts.

Once again, you FAIL the READING COMPREHENSION test.

OnTheWarpath58
09-13-2007, 06:37 PM
Doesn't matter. He was drafted on Vermeil's watch. Just like every player drafted by the Jets that you're crediting to Edwards, or every recent Chiefs pick that you're crediting to Edwards.

So, by that logic, why does it matter where the guy plays NOW?

It doesn't change the fact that he was PICKED by Herm/DV/Whoever.

You continue to flip-flop to TRY to strengthen your argument.

Again, I'd bet that your fellow Broncos fans would say you're full of shit as well.

To say that DV's drafts in 2001-2005 are better than Herm's from 2001-2005 is maybe the dumbest thing ever said on this board.

And that's saying A LOT.

OnTheWarpath58
09-13-2007, 06:39 PM
Has absolutely NOTHING to do with THIS topic, I'm afraid, which is to compare Edwards CHIEFS Drafts with Vermeil's CHIEFS drafts.

Once again, you FAIL the READING COMPREHENSION test.

You're the fuqtard that is bashing Herm for having 1 probowler in that timeframe....not me.

YOU made it relevant, dipshit.

If you're holding Herm to that standard, you should hold your team to the same......

orange
09-13-2007, 06:39 PM
So, by that logic, why does it matter where the guy plays NOW?

It doesn't change the fact that he was PICKED by Herm/DV/Whoever.




So then...

Vermeil DOES get credit for Lilja. 'Better add him to your list as a HIT for Vermeil - and look out for any other ex-Chiefs who might be playing somewhere else as well.

NaptownChief
09-13-2007, 06:43 PM
If Herm takes over a 10-6 team and gets a game worse in the first year with a 9-7 and then follows it up with a big stinker (which is looking very likely) then arguing about his draft success would sure seem silly.

It would be much like telling your parents that you flunked the test but my ink pen looked good doing it. If your utensil or utensils don't get you to the right answers then it really doesn't matter which utensils you chose to use.

orange
09-13-2007, 06:45 PM
You're the fuqtard that is bashing Herm for having 1 probowler in that timeframe....not me.

YOU made it relevant, dipshit.

If you're holding Herm to that standard, you should hold your team to the same......

NO. I'M SAYING EDWARDS HAS DONE NO BETTER THAN VERMEIL.

EDWARDS HAS DONE NO BETTER THAN VERMEIL.

EDWARDS HAS DONE NO BETTER THAN VERMEIL.

EDWARDS HAS DONE NO BETTER THAN VERMEIL.


WHAT DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND ABOUT THAT?

OnTheWarpath58
09-13-2007, 06:45 PM
I asked who the Jets drafted that was better than Allen or Johnson. I can post the damn message link if you need it.

And are you EVER going to answer my question? Did Direckshun offer an evaluation of Herm's Chiefs drafts or not?

How do you compare players at different positions, dipshit?

Did Herm draft a better RB than LJ or a better DE than Allen?

No.

But he DID draft better overall players, and that fact is UNDISPUTABLE.

DV drafting 2 studs and 30 dopes in 5 years doesn't make his drafts better than Herm who drafted SOLID players across the board.

But, as a Broncos fan, I expect you to not get it.

Fish
09-13-2007, 06:46 PM
So then...

Vermeil DOES get credit for Lilja. 'Better add him to your list as a HIT for Vermeil - and look out for any other ex-Chiefs who might be playing somewhere else as well.

ROFL

Scott Fujita, Jordan Black, Monty Beisel, Terdell Sands, and Ryan Sims are tearing up the league.... you can go ahead and include them.... cause their the only ones...

OnTheWarpath58
09-13-2007, 06:48 PM
So then...

Vermeil DOES get credit for Lilja. 'Better add him to your list as a HIT for Vermeil - and look out for any other ex-Chiefs who might be playing somewhere else as well.


Lilja was UNDRAFTED, you dipshit.

orange
09-13-2007, 06:48 PM
OnTheWarpath58,

Answer the questions:


... but you don't need to wait three years to see how much of an improvement Herm's drafting record is over Vermeil.

...

Do you think that's decent production from the Draft? Thoughts.




Is Croyle any good?

Is McBride any good?

Is Webb any good?

Has Pollard outperformed Wesley?

Is Page a stud tackler?

Has Bowe done anything to merit a starting assignment other than being a high draft choice?

blueballs
09-13-2007, 06:48 PM
Where you draft is huge. Vermiel's first year was with Gunn's draft picks. #12 for Green, the 2nd and 3rd rounders for him. Then the next two years of his high round draft picks were busts. You can't recover from that very quickly. Set this franchise in the hole big time.

Herm's first year or two in NY were high in the rounds. His first 2 here were middle of the road picks. And drafts very from year to year.

It's near impossible to compare IMO.

OnTheWarpath58
09-13-2007, 06:50 PM
NO. I'M SAYING EDWARDS HAS DONE NO BETTER THAN VERMEIL.

EDWARDS HAS DONE NO BETTER THAN VERMEIL.

EDWARDS HAS DONE NO BETTER THAN VERMEIL.

EDWARDS HAS DONE NO BETTER THAN VERMEIL.


WHAT DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND ABOUT THAT?

And we're all saying you're dead wrong.

But hey, continue to bang the drum. Your ignorance is entertaining.

We don't give a shit.

orange
09-13-2007, 06:51 PM
Lilja was UNDRAFTED, you dipshit.


Your OWN words:



It doesn't change the fact that he was PICKED by Herm/DV/Whoever.



What does it matter if he was drafted? He was PICKED and signed by Vermeil. Period.

OnTheWarpath58
09-13-2007, 06:52 PM
Your OWN words:



What does it matter if he was drafted? He was PICKED by Vermeil. Period.

Dear God, you are dumb as a box of rocks.

Picked as in DRAFT PICK, retard.

Just when I thought you couldn't be any more retarded, you surprise me again.

Bill Parcells
09-13-2007, 06:53 PM
LOL @ this thread!

http://bestsmileys.com/eating1/4.gif

orange
09-13-2007, 06:54 PM
And we're all saying you're dead wrong.

All? I see only two of you trying to sugarcoat Edwards' Chiefs drafts - and even at that, YOU personally won't go on record backing up ANY of those picks I listed as bad.


We don't give a shit.

And yet, you keep coming back...

orange
09-13-2007, 06:55 PM
OnTheWarpath58,

Answer the questions:


"... but you don't need to wait three years to see how much of an improvement Herm's drafting record is over Vermeil... Do you think that's decent production from the Draft? Thoughts."



Is Croyle any good?

Is McBride any good?

Is Webb any good?

Has Pollard outperformed Wesley?

Is Page a stud tackler?

Has Bowe done anything to merit a starting assignment other than being a high draft choice?

Count Zarth
09-13-2007, 06:55 PM
This is just ridiculous. Dick's top picks were guys like Ryan Sims and Junior ****ing Siavii. Herm hasn't come close to drafting colossal busts like those guys. Not even close. Tamba's a better player than Ryan and Junior put together.

About the only early pick Dick got right was Derrick Johnson...and NO ONE could have screwed that one up. His second rounders were all huge failures...Pollard thus far looks like a solid player at worst.

OnTheWarpath58
09-13-2007, 07:00 PM
All? I see only two of you trying to sugarcoat Edwards' Chiefs drafts - and even at that, YOU personally won't go on record backing up ANY of those picks I listed as bad.

I haven't sugercoated ANYTHING.

My focus was on Vermeil's drafts (2001-2005)

I haven't said SHIT about Herm's drafts since he took over here, because IT'S TOO ****ING EARLY to say whether they were GOOD or BAD picks.

Some of his picks LOOK better than others. But until some time has passed, that's nothing more than OPINION.

And I don't feel the need to "back up" any of the picks you listed as bad.

You're a blatant Bronco troll. Your 'opinion" is mired in bias, and you're looking for reactions to your bullshit.

Bottom line.

But hey, you've been changing the argument ever since you stepped foor in the thread. To a man, people were bashing DV's drafts. Only a dipshit like you could come in here and try to defend him.....

orange
09-13-2007, 07:01 PM
...Pollard thus far looks like a solid player at worst.

His first year, he was nothing but a special teamer. In his first start... 77 yard touchdown pass to Andre Johnson right over Pollard's back. I'll bet you're hoping for better than that...

Count Zarth
09-13-2007, 07:05 PM
His first year, he was nothing but a special teamer. .

And a damn good one at that. That already puts him ahead of ANY Dick Vermeil second-round blunder.

You can't win this argument. Vermeil's drafts were ****ING HORRIBLE. Herm's are the best thing that happened to this franchise in years.

OnTheWarpath58
09-13-2007, 07:07 PM
OnTheWarpath58,

Answer the questions:


"... but you don't need to wait three years to see how much of an improvement Herm's drafting record is over Vermeil... Do you think that's decent production from the Draft? Thoughts."



Is Croyle any good?

Is McBride any good?

Is Webb any good?

Has Pollard outperformed Wesley?

Is Page a stud tackler?

Has Bowe done anything to merit a starting assignment other than being a high draft choice?

Am I supposed to be able to tell the future?

What is your definition of GOOD?

Croyle hasn't taken a regular season snap.

McBride has played ONE regular season game.

Webb hasn't played enough to make an assessment, IMO.

Pollard HAS outperformed Wesley.

Why not "is Page any good?" Again, you want to change the argument.

orange
09-13-2007, 07:08 PM
This is just ridiculous. Dick's top picks were guys like Ryan Sims and Junior ****ing Siavii. Herm hasn't come close to drafting colossal busts like those guys. Not even close. Tamba's a better player than Ryan and Junior put together.

About the only early pick Dick got right was Derrick Johnson...and NO ONE could have screwed that one up. His second rounders were all huge failures...Pollard thus far looks like a solid player at worst.


And Edwards drafts have featured a bunch of mediocrities. As far as his Jets drafts, I could care less - other people are harping on them, as if they would show Edwards is a draft genius - but all they can post is MEDIOCRITIES. I'm still waiting for some sign of Herm's brilliance.

And Herm's Second Rounders in 2006 and 2007 look like career special teamers to me.

Fish
09-13-2007, 07:08 PM
His first year, he was nothing but a special teamer. In his first start... 77 yard touchdown pass to Andre Johnson right over Pollard's back. I'll bet you're hoping for better than that...

http://www.smddrums.com/woodcell/straws.jpg

Pollard, 3 blocked punts, leading the league... yeah... gained playing time on D as the year progressed. Started the season his second year, we'll see how this year plays out, but he's progressing very well. That's a terrible example...

orange
09-13-2007, 07:10 PM
... leading the league... yeah... gained playing time on D as the year progressed. Started the season his second year, we'll see how this year plays out, but he's progressing very well. That's a terrible example...


It's a wonderful example. How did Greg Wesley - the man who was benched for Pollard before a down was played this preseason - how did he start HIS career?

Go ahead, look it up and prepare to spin.

OnTheWarpath58
09-13-2007, 07:10 PM
And Edwards drafts have featured a bunch of mediocrities. As far as his Jets drafts, I could care less - other people are harping on them, as if they would show Edwards is a draft genius - but all they can post is MEDIOCRITIES. I'm still waiting for some sign of Herm's brilliance.

And Herm's Second Rounders in 2006 and 2007 look like career special teamers to me.

Thanks for your expert opinion.

Your entire 2007 draft class looks like a steaming pile of shit to me, but who cares?

In TIME, they'll prove me right, or prove me wrong.

orange
09-13-2007, 07:13 PM
Thanks for your expert opinion.

Your entire 2007 draft class looks like a steaming pile of shit to me, but who cares?

In TIME, they'll prove me right, or prove me wrong.

Right, but you see the thread-poster asked for thoughts, and I gave them. He didn't restrict it to just "experts."

I bet you never will admit it when you prove to be wrong - just as you've never admitted you were wrong about Direckshun in this thread. You clearly haven't got the guts.

Skip Towne
09-13-2007, 07:17 PM
Why do you guys argue with a brain dead Donkey? Sport I guess. Like a cat toying with a mouse.

Fish
09-13-2007, 07:19 PM
It's a wonderful example. How did Greg Wesley - the man who was benched for Pollard before a down was played this preseason - how did he start HIS career?

Go ahead, look it up and prepare to spin.

So now you're changing your requirement to rookies starting their first year?? You really want to go down that road in comparing Herm drafts vs. Vermeil drafts?

OnTheWarpath58
09-13-2007, 07:20 PM
Right, but you see the thread-poster asked for thoughts, and I gave them.

I bet you never will admit it when you prove to be wrong - just as you've never admitted you were wrong about Direckshun in this thread. You clearly haven't got the guts.

Wrong about what?

It's called context.

But there's the assessment so far:

4 starters
4 backups
2 third stringers
1 practice squad
3 cut

There is NO DISPUTING that list. The players listed as 2006 and 2007 draft picks are either starters, backups, 3rd stringers, PS players, or were cut.

Those are the FACTS

Do you think that's decent production from the Draft? Thoughts.

Do you have ANY idea WHY he said that?

Because we've been discussing how many players saw the field in their first 2 years under Vermeil.

So, IN CONTEXT, the answer is YES, getting 4 starters and 4 backups in the past 2 drafts is more than decent, considering what Vermeil did here.

orange
09-13-2007, 07:26 PM
... but you don't need to wait three years to see how much of an improvement Herm's drafting record is over Vermeil.




Direckshun hasn't EVALUATED anything.

orange
09-13-2007, 07:27 PM
So now you're changing your requirement to rookies starting their first year?? You really want to go down that road in comparing Herm drafts vs. Vermeil drafts?

Didn't like what you found out, did you? That Wesley as a ROOKIE was light-years better than Pollard as a ROOKIE.

Kind of makes Pollard look *blah*, doesn't it.

orange
09-13-2007, 07:30 PM
Croyle hasn't taken a regular season snap.



PS It really is entertaining being insulted by such knowledgeable Chiefs' Fans as you. ROFL

Fish
09-13-2007, 07:32 PM
Didn't like what you found out, did you? That Wesley as a ROOKIE was light-years better than Pollard as a ROOKIE.

I still don't understand what point your trying to make? Shall we start using that comparison to other draft picks?? See who started their first year?? Because other than that scenario, Herm has started a lot more rookies than Vermeil.

And Vermeil didn't draft Wesley by the way....... so your point is moot either way...

HemiEd
09-13-2007, 07:33 PM
How do you call Kris Wilson "solid"? He never played while Vermiel was here. He has 3 catches over two years or something like that.
Don't let the facts mess up your story. He had three TDs last year, a couple of those were underthrown balls that were pretty much uncatchable. He had 15 receptions in 16 games, the first time he was ever really used.

HemiEd
09-13-2007, 07:36 PM
This makes the picture very clear. Vermiel's drafts were terrible. No wonder the team got so old, so fast.
Most of his drafts were on the defense as clearly illustrated. I am sure neither Greg Robinson or Gunther made any of those recommendations.

orange
09-13-2007, 07:37 PM
...

Do you have ANY idea WHY he said that?

Because we've been discussing how many players saw the field in their first 2 years under Vermeil.

So, IN CONTEXT, the answer is YES, getting 4 starters and 4 backups in the past 2 drafts is more than decent, considering what Vermeil did here.

Every once in awhile, you actually make a discernable point.

However, your list of Vermeil's picks IS NOT based on their first two years, but overall. If you based it on the first two years, several other players would have rated as HIT or SERVICEABLE. I mentioned Sims, Siavii and Browning. Sims was a starter, and the other two were "in the rotation" as Edwards is fond of saying. And there were probably others as well.

OnTheWarpath58
09-13-2007, 07:37 PM
PS It really is entertaining being insulted by such knowledgeable Chiefs' Fans as you. ROFL

Anyone here knows EXACTLY what that meant. But not you, because you only come here to fling shit.

You have to have everything explained to you.

Even dumbasses such as yourself know that 7 snaps in a blowout game doesn't predict failure/success.

orange
09-13-2007, 07:39 PM
I still don't understand what point your trying to make? Shall we start using that comparison to other draft picks?? See who started their first year?? Because other than that scenario, Herm has started a lot more rookies than Vermeil.

And Vermeil didn't draft Wesley by the way....... so your point is moot either way...


My point is that Pollard is less than impressive so far. You say that he IS impressive and you listed his stats. Fine. I offered Wesley as a comparison. Wesley in my mind WAS impressive.

There. Clear?

HemiEd
09-13-2007, 07:41 PM
It's difficult to grade drafts, because you also have a variable called player development that you cannot account for.

Plus, for Example, Jared Allen is more talented than any player ever drafted by Herm, so why does he only count the same as a regular player.

I don't see a lot of stars in Herm's drafts either.

Bottom line is that for almost 2 decades the chiefs haven't really drafted or developed players that well, regardless of who was the coach.

They sucked even worse the two decades before that.

orange
09-13-2007, 07:42 PM
Even dumbasses such as yourself know that 7 snaps in a blowout game doesn't predict failure/success.

What else has Croyle done that indicates success? All I see is failure.

And by the way, when have I ever insulted any of you? All I have offered is disagreement, and yet you call me everything in the book. Is that the way your momma raised you?

Are you just incapable of an intelligent disagreement?

OnTheWarpath58
09-13-2007, 07:43 PM
Every once in awhile, you actually make a discernable point.

However, your list of Vermeil's picks IS NOT based on their first two years, but overall. If you based it on the first two years, several other players would have rated as HIT or SERVICEABLE. I mentioned Sims, Siavii and Browning. Sims was a starter, and the other two were "in the rotation" as Edwards is fond of saying. And there were probably others as well.

This proves you know jack shit about any of those players, or this organization.

First, I didn't rate the past 2 years draftees as HIT, SERVICEABLE, etc.

Sims had ONE decent year. Nothing spectacular.

Browning and Siavii were not anyhwere near SERVICEABLE.

Being a warm body isn't considered serviceable, making a contribution is.

If you're ONLY considering their first two years as a player, then:

Sims - Serviceable

Downing - Miss

Siavii - Miss

Fish
09-13-2007, 07:46 PM
My point is that Pollard is less than impressive so far. You say that he IS impressive and you listed his stats. Fine. I offered Wesley as a comparison. Wesley in my mind WAS impressive.

There. Clear?

No it isn't clear.

Wesley was drafted by a different coach in a different system with no connection to the drafting of either coach we're talking about. The only connection there is is the fact that Wesley started his first season.

So if you take the only connection there is, starting the first season, and apply that to the rest of the drafts under Vermeil and Edwards, you'd clearly see that Edwards has more starting rookies.

And the fact remains, Wesley lost his spot to Pollard.

Your stupidity is overflowing.....

orange
09-13-2007, 07:47 PM
...

Because we've been discussing how many players saw the field in their first 2 years under Vermeil.

So, IN CONTEXT, the answer is YES, getting 4 starters and 4 backups in the past 2 drafts is more than decent, considering what Vermeil did here.


Seeing the field - that's all Pollard, Webb, Croyle, and McBride have done so far.

OnTheWarpath58
09-13-2007, 07:49 PM
What else has Croyle done that indicates success? All I see is failure.

And by the way, when have I ever insulted any of you? All I have offered is disagreement, and yet you call me everything in the book. Is that the way your momma raised you?

Are you just incapable of an intelligent disagreement?

Jesus Christ....

No one has said that Croyle IS going to be successful.

There are people on this board who would like to SEE him actually PLAY to see what he's capable of.

You are the last person that should be saying ANYTHING about an "intelligent agreement."

I don't see a soul on this board agreeing with ANYTHING you've said. Including the other Broncos fans who frequest the board who CAN carry on an intelligent conversation without trolling.

You're not here to legitimately discuss an issue, you're here to sling shit.

Plain and simple.

orange
09-13-2007, 07:49 PM
...

And the fact remains, Wesley lost his spot to Pollard.



Like Tynes lost his spot to Medlock and Green lost his spot to Croyle... OOOPS!

Chiefnj2
09-13-2007, 07:50 PM
No it isn't clear.

Wesley was drafted by a different coach in a different system with no connection to the drafting of either coach we're talking about. The only connection there is is the fact that Wesley started his first season.

So if you take the only connection there is, starting the first season, and apply that to the rest of the drafts under Vermeil and Edwards, you'd clearly see that Edwards has more starting rookies.

And the fact remains, Wesley lost his spot to Pollard.

Your stupidity is overflowing.....

I think if you looked at DV's 2nd draft 1 month into the season, you'd see a lot of "starters" and rotational players as well. There was a 1st for Trent Green and no 2nd. Minnis was starting, Downing was a rotational player, Blaylock was getting some snaps, Sands and Beisel may have been rotational or STs. Sims and Freeman were starting and/or big into the rotation in their first year.

It's way too early to tell if Herm's drafts are better. Page and Pollard could hit a wall and not develop any further and suddenly the draft is looking a lot like DVs.

orange
09-13-2007, 07:52 PM
...

You're not here to legitimately discuss an issue, you're here to sling shit.

Plain and simple.

Quote ANY of the "shit" that I have "slung."

Unless you call not kissing the ass of unproven or bust Chiefs players as slinging shit... I will freely admit to that.

HemiEd
09-13-2007, 07:52 PM
I doubt that other Broncos fans take him seriously......
Actually, I think he has made some good points, especially about Ryan Sims. I have tried to make the same point numerous times on here, but it is contrary to the romantic opinion of Herm's drafts, which we hope turn out to be fantastic.
If Tank ends up with the year Ryan Sims had his first full year, we should be very happy.

OnTheWarpath58
09-13-2007, 07:55 PM
I think if you looked at DV's 2nd draft 1 month into the season, you'd see a lot of "starters" and rotational players as well. There was a 1st for Trent Green and no 2nd. Minnis was starting, Downing was a rotational player, Blaylock was getting some snaps, Sands and Beisel may have been rotational or STs. Sims and Freeman were starting and/or big into the rotation in their first year.

It's way too early to tell if Herm's drafts are better. Page and Pollard could hit a wall and not develop any further and suddenly the draft is looking a lot like DVs.

You've cherry picked one draft.

As it's been pointed out, starting doesn't necessarily mean they were good players. Starting out of necessity is different than starting because you deserve to start.

I'm not sure how anyone can look at DV's drafts and label them anything close to successful. Are Herms drafts with the Chiefs better? Time will tell.

Are Herm's drafts with the Jets during the DV era better?

You bet your ass. Not even close.

Fish
09-13-2007, 07:58 PM
I think if you looked at DV's 2nd draft 1 month into the season, you'd see a lot of "starters" and rotational players as well. There was a 1st for Trent Green and no 2nd. Minnis was starting, Downing was a rotational player, Blaylock was getting some snaps, Sands and Beisel may have been rotational or STs. Sims and Freeman were starting and/or big into the rotation in their first year.

It's way too early to tell if Herm's drafts are better. Page and Pollard could hit a wall and not develop any further and suddenly the draft is looking a lot like DVs.

Everyone you listed except Sims and Freeman were 2nd year players. None but Sims, Fujita, and maybe Blaylock did squat in the following seasons.

OnTheWarpath58
09-13-2007, 08:01 PM
Actually, I think he has made some good points, especially about Ryan Sims. I have tried to make the same point numerous times on here, but it is contrary to the romantic opinion of Herm's drafts, which we hope turn out to be fantastic.
If Tank ends up with the year Ryan Sims had his first full year, we should be very happy.

He had 38 tackles and 3 sacks in his first full year.

That is over HALF of the tackles he's made the rest of his career.

That is UNACEPTABLE for a guy who was a 6th overall draft pick.

Period.

Why are we comparing a 6th overall to guys taken in the 2nd and 3rd rounds, anyway?

HemiEd
09-13-2007, 08:02 PM
So then...

Vermeil DOES get credit for Lilja. 'Better add him to your list as a HIT for Vermeil - and look out for any other ex-Chiefs who might be playing somewhere else as well.

We gave up a first for Trent Green. I forget who the Rams drafted for him. Then there was the second for Vermeil, don't remember who the Rams took with that one either. Since the Chiefs 1st choice that year was in the 3rd, they really busted and reached.

Fish
09-13-2007, 08:04 PM
Actually, I think he has made some good points, especially about Ryan Sims. I have tried to make the same point numerous times on here, but it is contrary to the romantic opinion of Herm's drafts, which we hope turn out to be fantastic.
If Tank ends up with the year Ryan Sims had his first full year, we should be very happy.

Ryan Sims was the 6th overall pick and look at him now. How can you possibly say his first decent year makes up for that?

75 Total Career tackles
5.0 Career sacks

Seriously?

KCChiefsMan
09-13-2007, 08:07 PM
I think we need a Kige Ramsey take on this subject

orange
09-13-2007, 08:08 PM
Ryan Sims was the 6th overall pick and look at him now. How can you possibly say his first decent year makes up for that?

75 Total Career tackles
5.0 Career sacks

Seriously?

No one's saying that. Really. No one is. We're saying that in his second year he looked like a good pick.

And that's all we've got for any of Edwards' picks - one or two years to go on.

So claiming that McBride or Tyler was a better pick at this time is absurd - and by extension, claiming that Edwards' draft was better than Vermeil's because Edwards got McBride and Tyler is equally absurd.

HemiEd
09-13-2007, 08:10 PM
This is just ridiculous. Dick's top picks were guys like Ryan Sims and Junior ****ing Siavii. Herm hasn't come close to drafting colossal busts like those guys. Not even close. Tamba's a better player than Ryan and Junior put together.

About the only early pick Dick got right was Derrick Johnson...and NO ONE could have screwed that one up. His second rounders were all huge failures...Pollard thus far looks like a solid player at worst.

Amazing you name the two busts, but not LJ or DJ. We picked Siavii with a second rounder, but don't let that mess up the story. The other top choice was Trent Green. In fact, Siavii was a feel good story at the time, all the media was in love with. Sure go ahead and spin it, you need to keep your relationship with Warpaint and the Chiefs at their best.

Chiefnj2
09-13-2007, 08:12 PM
You've cherry picked one draft.

As it's been pointed out, starting doesn't necessarily mean they were good players. Starting out of necessity is different than starting because you deserve to start.

I'm not sure how anyone can look at DV's drafts and label them anything close to successful. Are Herms drafts with the Chiefs better? Time will tell.

Are Herm's drafts with the Jets during the DV era better?

You bet your ass. Not even close.
I'm not cherry picking. I'm looking at DV's first two drafts and Herms first two drafts. The point was that it is too early to tell. Things can look deceiving early on. Bowe could be Minnis. McBride could be Freeman. Tank could be Sims. Nobody knows yet.

HemiEd
09-13-2007, 08:15 PM
Anyone here knows EXACTLY what that meant. But not you, because you only come here to fling shit.

You have to have everything explained to you.

Even dumbasses such as yourself know that 7 snaps in a blowout game doesn't predict failure/success.

Croyle played some last year and they did snap the ball to him

OnTheWarpath58
09-13-2007, 08:21 PM
No one's saying that. Really. No one is. We're saying that in his second year he looked like a good pick.

And that's all we've got for any of Edwards' picks - one or two years to go on.

So claiming that McBride or Tyler was a better pick at this time is absurd - and by extension, claiming that Edwards' draft was better than Vermeil's because Edwards got McBride and Tyler is equally absurd.

In theory, that is correct.

Again, in context, it's wrong.

We have the advantage of knowing how Sims turned out. 1 decent year, then nothing. Flat out bust. I don't think you can argue that, nor do I think you're trying to.

Factor in that he was the 6th overall pick in the draft, and it makes him even more of a bust.

Based on the fact that Turk was taken 54th overall, and Tank was taken 82nd overall, they don't hold near the risk that Sims did. They could accomplish NOTHING in the NFL and still not be near the draft failure that Sims was, IMO.

And personally, while it is a complete guess on my part, I have a hard time believing either of those two will make as little of an impact in KC as Sims did.

Blowing a Top 10 draft pick is one of the worst things that can happen to a franchise.

Vermeil did that. And when you know the story of WHY he drafted Sims and not say, John Henderson, it helps explain WHY DV's drafts were complete shit.

HemiEd
09-13-2007, 08:25 PM
He had 38 tackles and 3 sacks in his first full year.

That is over HALF of the tackles he's made the rest of his career.

That is UNACEPTABLE for a guy who was a 6th overall draft pick.

Period.

Why are we comparing a 6th overall to guys taken in the 2nd and 3rd rounds, anyway?

The reason is the same that has been stated over and over, even by you.
We don't know what we have with Herm's picks yet.

To Say, that Ryan Sims was a total bust from the start is wrong. To say that our choices under Herm are better than any others, is premature.

Are some of Herm's picks starting because of the youth movement? Yes, and they should learn. But as evidenced by the last two NFL games played by the Chiefs, they have a ways to go.

OnTheWarpath58
09-13-2007, 08:25 PM
I'm not cherry picking. I'm looking at DV's first two drafts and Herms first two drafts. The point was that it is too early to tell. Things can look deceiving early on. Bowe could be Minnis. McBride could be Freeman. Tank could be Sims. Nobody knows yet.

Sorry, my mistake.

At one point we were talking about Herm's drafts with the Jets that Coincided with DV's drafts with KC.

I thought that was was you were referring to.....

My mistake.

OnTheWarpath58
09-13-2007, 08:28 PM
The reason is the same that has been stated over and over, even by you.
We don't know what we have with Herm's picks yet.

To Say, that Ryan Sims was a total bust from the start is wrong. To say that our choices under Herm are better than any others, is premature.

Are some of Herm's picks starting because of the youth movement? Yes, and they should learn. But as evidenced by the last two NFL games played by the Chiefs, they have a ways to go.

Read the post above yours.

I admit that we have the advantage of KNOWING that Sims ended up as a bust.

Fish
09-13-2007, 08:35 PM
No one's saying that. Really. No one is. We're saying that in his second year he looked like a good pick.

And that's all we've got for any of Edwards' picks - one or two years to go on.

So claiming that McBride or Tyler was a better pick at this time is absurd - and by extension, claiming that Edwards' draft was better than Vermeil's because Edwards got McBride and Tyler is equally absurd.

I'm not claiming that. I've been saying the entire time to consider Herm's drafts since becoming a head coach. I agree that this years draft picks aren't proven. I definitely think there is lots of potential, but they are unproven. I think they're better, you think they're worse, but we won't know for 3 years.

Which is why I said look at Herm's drafts in NY through the same time period. Those guys have proven themselves, whether you'll admit it or not. Compare Vermeil 01-04 to Herm 01-04. Which is long enough for any of those players to have proven themselves.

Of course that would eliminate your easy out in the argument...

HemiEd
09-13-2007, 08:35 PM
Ryan Sims was the 6th overall pick and look at him now. How can you possibly say his first decent year makes up for that?

75 Total Career tackles
5.0 Career sacks

Seriously?

I am not. He ended up a bust and I am glad he is gone. However, he was not a bust from the onset. As far as his measurbles, as Keg mentioned, they don't always tell the whole story. He was a nose tackle, with the responsibility of bringing pressure up the middle. He did that very well for a while. In fact, the Jets game, first of that season, he was playing like a possessed monster. Got hurt early and never returned to form.

OnTheWarpath58
09-13-2007, 08:50 PM
I guess I just expect more out of a guy who was the 6th overall pick.

IMO, at no time, including 2003, did Sims play like a Top 10 pick is supposed/expected to play.

John Henderson, taken 3 spots BEHIND Sims, has. Hell, even Albert Haynesworth, who was taken in the middle of the round accomplished as much or more than Sims did his first full year.

Not once has Henderson had less than 51 tackles and 3 sacks. In 5 full seasons.

Henderson has performed from the get-go.

Sims had one average year.

He never played up to his draft slot, IMO.

Fish
09-13-2007, 08:54 PM
I think we might have taken different meanings out of the thread.....

The first two sentences, especially the bolded part:

There is a little nugget of wisdom that estimates that all draft assessments are premature until three years down the road. For the record, I think that's true, but you don't need to wait three years to see how much of an improvement Herm's drafting record is over Vermeil.

I take this as meaning, we don't have to wait 3 years from today to know that Herm is a better drafting coach than Vermeil. He specifically said Herm's drafting record.

I'm starting to think people had something else in mind...

HemiEd
09-13-2007, 08:55 PM
I guess I just expect more out of a guy who was the 6th overall pick.

IMO, at no time, including 2003, did Sims play like a Top 10 pick is supposed/expected to play.

John Henderson, taken 3 spots BEHIND Sims, has. Hell, even Albert Haynesworth, who was taken in the middle of the round accomplished as much or more than Sims did his first full year.

Not once has Henderson had less than 51 tackles and 3 sacks. In 5 full seasons.

Henderson has performed from the get-go.

Sims had one average year.

He never played up to his draft slot, IMO.
Exactly why I was making the assertion that I hope Tank, taken 82, plays that well. He has shown some flashes up the middle, that we have not seen from anyone except Sims for quite some time. Agreed, we did not see it often enough or for very long from Sims. He came back from that injury and was a total bust for two different HCs after that.
That push up the middle is what I am so anxious to see, it should enable Allen and Hali to be even better IMO.

HemiEd
09-13-2007, 09:00 PM
I think we might have taken different meanings out of the thread.....

The first two sentences, especially the bolded part:



I take this as meaning, we don't have to wait 3 years from today to know that Herm is a better drafting coach than Vermeil. He specifically said Herm's drafting record.

I'm starting to think people had something else in mind...

But, as stated in this thread by numerous posters, it is not possible to evaluate yet. Take Hali and Pollard out of the equation, since they were Herm's first two picks (Dick lost them for Trent and himself) or at least put Trent Greens performance in there. You can not have it one way without the other IMO.

OnTheWarpath58
09-13-2007, 09:11 PM
But, as stated in this thread by numerous posters, it is not possible to evaluate yet. Take Hali and Pollard out of the equation, since they were Herm's first two picks (Dick lost them for Trent and himself) or at least put Trent Greens performance in there. You can not have it one way without the other IMO.

I think Fish is talking about Herm's drafts 2001-2005 vs. Vermeil's drafts during the same time period. There has been enough time to evaluate those, and it's not even close.

Herm tends to get the benefit of the doubt, since he's actually drafted guys who have been solid contributors in the NFL.

I think we listed 10-12 guys that were solid draft picks for Herm in NY. There could have been more, I just picked the guys I knew were solid players. I don't follow the Jets.

Every one of those guys is head and shoulders above anybody DV picked, excluding LJ, DJ and Jared Allen.

Fish
09-13-2007, 09:13 PM
But, as stated in this thread by numerous posters, it is not possible to evaluate yet. Take Hali and Pollard out of the equation, since they were Herm's first two picks (Dick lost them for Trent and himself) or at least put Trent Greens performance in there. You can not have it one way without the other IMO.

The thread title states Herm's Drafting Record. Not Herm's Drafting Record While With the Chiefs.

He stated that while you should wait 3 years before evaluating, you don't have to in this case cause it was known that Herm's drafting was better than Vermeil's. Then goes on to list Herm's draft the last 2 years and wanted opinions.

orange comes in to argue that <strike>Vermeil's drafts were better than Herm's</strike> Herm's drafts were no better than Vermeil's. Then says you can't count Herm's years drafting at NY. I'm still wondering why? Compare as many years as possible. When you do, it's clear that Herm has better draft success than Vermeil does.

Ari Chi3fs
09-13-2007, 09:15 PM
does orange rhyme with douche?

orange
09-13-2007, 09:17 PM
NO. I'M SAYING EDWARDS HAS DONE NO BETTER THAN VERMEIL.

orange
09-13-2007, 09:18 PM
does orange rhyme with douche?

I don't think so, but I bet Ari Chi3fs is an expert on douches - their smell, their feel, their taste. Why don't we ask him?

orange
09-13-2007, 09:21 PM
orange comes in to argue that <strike>Vermeil's drafts were better than Herm's</strike> Herm's drafts were no better than Vermeil's. Then says you can't count Herm's years drafting at NY. I'm still wondering why? Compare as many years as possible. When you do, it's clear that Herm has better draft success than Vermeil does.


And to make it clearer - if you've missed my previous half-dozen posts on this exact point - I don't see anything in Herm's Jets drafts to suggest they were better than Vermeil's. I see a lot of mediocre players playing for a mediocre team.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[Edit] So, you edited out your glaringly wrong assertion. I accept the implied apology.

Fish
09-13-2007, 09:25 PM
And to make it clearer - if you've missed my previous half-dozen posts on this exact point - I don't see anything in Herm's Jets drafts to suggest they were better than Vermeil's. I see a lot of mediocre players playing for a mediocre team.

And that's why you're a clueless idiot. Thanks for pointing that out again....

CupidStunt
09-14-2007, 04:12 AM
If only the Chiefs would've given up a bunch for Jarvis Moss and then drafted his backup in the next round.

MahiMike
09-14-2007, 02:40 PM
All this shows me is that anyone can start for a bottom-dweller team. I'd rather have guys cut that can't make a good roster than draft picks that can make a poor team.