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big nasty kcnut
09-13-2007, 06:34 PM
Pats fined 250000 Bill belichek fined 500000 and lost first roun d pick if they make playoff. per espnnews. They will lose 2nd and third if they don't make the playoff.

QuikSsurfer
09-13-2007, 06:34 PM
good call

BWillie
09-13-2007, 06:35 PM
Jeeezuz...Goddell is a crazied looney. I like it. If I played in the league I'd be afraid to take a dump.

Fruit Ninja
09-13-2007, 06:35 PM
ouch

Buck
09-13-2007, 06:35 PM
Nice, maybe the Pats will be a little distracted this week.

DaKCMan AP
09-13-2007, 06:35 PM
That's not nearly enough.

Fruit Ninja
09-13-2007, 06:36 PM
Godell doesnt **** around. I like this

DaKCMan AP
09-13-2007, 06:36 PM
Money (which they all have way too much of) and MAYBE a late 1st-round pick? That's hardly punishment enough. BB should have been suspended.

cdcox
09-13-2007, 06:36 PM
Wish Goodell had been comish when the Donks scandall broke a few years back.

Dr. Facebook Fever
09-13-2007, 06:37 PM
This is not justice. They should be forced to trade their O-line, Tom Brady and Randy Moss to us for a warm 6 pack of Coors Light.

Fruit Ninja
09-13-2007, 06:37 PM
This is a good punishment. No one was even thinking it would be a first rounder.

Frazod
09-13-2007, 06:38 PM
That's not nearly enough.

Better than I expected. This is New York North, after all. Can't go too hard on them. :rolleyes:

KcMizzou
09-13-2007, 06:38 PM
Hey, that's not what Mecca said...

BWillie
09-13-2007, 06:38 PM
This is not justice. They should be forced to trade their O-line, Tom Brady and Randy Moss to us for a warm 6 pack of Coors Light.

Yeah, we lost Lamar Hunt. We should get a "complementary deal" under the next disciplinary action action. Damn it Carl!

gta0012
09-13-2007, 06:39 PM
nice! They deserve it!

the Talking Can
09-13-2007, 06:39 PM
sweet

now let's hear Bela-Chick freestyle..."

Fish
09-13-2007, 06:39 PM
How did they come to those terms with the draft pick? That's crazy....

cdcox
09-13-2007, 06:41 PM
This is not justice. They should be forced to trade their O-line, Tom Brady and Randy Moss to us for a warm 6 pack of Coors Light.

Belichek is the one who should be punished. Make him coach the Chiefs.

Simply Red
09-13-2007, 06:52 PM
Nice, maybe the Pats will be a little distracted this week.
hopefully not. ;)

ROYC75
09-13-2007, 06:53 PM
Belichek is the one who should be punished. Make him coach the Chiefs.

ROFL With Carl as his GM....... sweet justice for cheating.

Fairplay
09-13-2007, 06:54 PM
Do we have a link?

DaKCMan AP
09-13-2007, 06:55 PM
Do we have a link?

http://www.espn.com/

Fruit Ninja
09-13-2007, 06:55 PM
espn.com

Fairplay
09-13-2007, 06:55 PM
Link.

http://www.thebostonchannel.com/sports/14109617/detail.html

Fairplay
09-13-2007, 06:57 PM
Thanks for links guys, this will be great water cooler talk tomorrow.

pikesome
09-13-2007, 07:00 PM
It doesn't seem to jive with the player suspensions, expect to hear about that.

DaKCMan AP
09-13-2007, 07:02 PM
It doesn't seem to jive with the player suspensions, expect to hear about that.

It isn't consistent with the coaching suspensions (dallas assistant suspended 4 games for HGH).

dirk digler
09-13-2007, 07:05 PM
Hey, that's not what Mecca said...

As usual he was talking out of his ass again.

Funny that if they do good they are going to lose their 1st round draft pick. That is awesome

morphius
09-13-2007, 07:06 PM
We lose a second for hiring a coach who had taken a another job within the team he quits for, and they lose a single first. Yup, that seems Chiefs fair.

JBucc
09-13-2007, 07:06 PM
Losing a first round draft pick would be huge for most teams, but they'll probably find some way to trade a guy for one or something.

cdcox
09-13-2007, 07:08 PM
The Patriots empire is crumbling.

chiefqueen
09-13-2007, 07:09 PM
However I heard on ESPN the PATS have 2 1st rounders next year.

pikesome
09-13-2007, 07:09 PM
It isn't consistent with the coaching suspensions (dallas assistant suspended 4 games for HGH).

You could make a good case that substance abuse violations are in a much different (and worse) category than cheating. But it still seems kind of light considering Judge Dredd Goodell's recent punishments. I wonder how much money Pacman or Tank Johnson lost with their suspensions, 500K is pretty big on a coach's salary.

tk13
09-13-2007, 07:09 PM
They have two first round picks don't they?

Fairplay
09-13-2007, 07:09 PM
It doesn't seem to jive with the player suspensions, expect to hear about that.



This is a different type of penalty towards the team itself and organization. You can't compare the two suspensions.

Plus this is an unprecedented judgement from the NFL that i can think of.
It sends a message to other teams basically not to even try it. The integrity of the NFL is at risk, and this shows how serious we are taking this. Goodell rocks.

pikesome
09-13-2007, 07:10 PM
The Patriots empire is crumbling.

I'm not sure I'd go that far yet. Depends on a lot of other things more.

Basileus777
09-13-2007, 07:12 PM
They have two first round picks don't they?

They have San Francisco's as well.

This is a pretty serious punishment, its about as harsh as could reasonably be expected.

cdcox
09-13-2007, 07:12 PM
I'm not sure I'd go that far yet. Depends on a lot of other things more.

Empire crumbling is the new antifreeze.

Bill Parcells
09-13-2007, 07:13 PM
They have two first round picks don't they?
Yes

Bill Parcells
09-13-2007, 07:14 PM
They have San Francisco's as well.

This is a pretty serious punishment, its about as harsh as could reasonably be expected.
They're probably going to keep SF's and lose their own.

dirk digler
09-13-2007, 07:14 PM
They have two first round picks don't they?

Yep. The NFL would probably take the higher of the 2.

Will see what the NFL says tomorrow apparently they could lose their 2nd and 3rd so they could be stripped of both first round picks.

dirk digler
09-13-2007, 07:15 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3017964

Opinions on Pats' tactics mixed among holdovers from Eagles' NFC title team

Associated Press

PHILADELPHIA -- Sheldon Brown and the Eagles hoped a blitz would rattle Tom Brady.

One problem: Every time the Eagles rushed Brady in the Super Bowl, the Patriots nullified the defensive attack with screen passes. Lots of them. On almost every play defensive coordinator Jim Johnson called for a blitz, the Patriots used the short pass to confuse the Eagles.

After the Patriots beat the Eagles 24-21 in 2005 to win the Lombardi Trophy, Brown thought the Patriots beat them with nothing but sharp offensive playcalling. Now, he's not so sure.

With spying accusations leveled this week against the Patriots, some of the Eagles left from the NFC title team are wondering if New England used bootleg film to their advantage in the Super Bowl.

"Do I think about it? Mmm hmmm," said Brown, their starting cornerback. "It's crazy. I just don't know how far back it goes. Something's not right about that."

Pro Bowl safety Brian Dawkins found the accusations troublesome.

"Now there's always going to be questions about the situation," Dawkins said Thursday. "Was it great adjustments at halftime or what?"

Pittsburgh wide receiver Hines Ward said this week that he suspected the Patriots had some type of inside information on the Steelers before at least one of the teams' two AFC championship game matchups since the 2001 season. While Ward said the Patriots knew a lot of Pittsburgh's calls, none of the Eagles could offer any type of solid proof of any shenanigans.

"For me to think back two years ago about something they may or may not have done, it's not worth my time," running back Brian Westbrook said.

New England beat the New York Jets in last Sunday's season opener in which an on-field video camera allegedly focusing on Jets coaches was confiscated from a Patriots employee. The league confirmed that it is investigating whether coach Bill Belichick and the Patriots were responsible for taping the Jets' defensive coaches as they signaled to players on the field.

"I would like to think it's just one team doing it, but it doesn't shock me that it happened," Dawkins said.

Some Eagles said occasional signal-stealing is an accepted part of the game. But they believe what the Patriots are accused of doing crosses the football morality line because it threatens the integrity of the game.

"It's different if you're talking about recording it," Dawkins said. "What can you do if you try to signal a play in?"

Eagles coach Andy Reid steered away from questions about the alleged cheating other than to say he has no doubts New England's victory was legitimate.

"That's something Bill and the Patriots are working through," Reid said.

Brown said he noticed a difference in New England's playcalling in the second quarter. After the Patriots gained only 45 yards in the first quarter, they had 286 over the next three.

Brady hit running back Corey Dillon and gained 29 total yards on a pair of screens to open New England's first full drive of the second quarter. They didn't score on that drive, but did on four of the next five drives.

The Patriots went to the screen pass again on the decisive drive early in the fourth quarter, this time with Brady connecting with Kevin Faulk on two passes for 27 yards.

"I was like, 'Man, I never saw that many screens,' " Brown said.

Brown wonders if it was normal playcalling from a team good enough to win three Super Bowls in four seasons, a Patriots team that used a strong scouting report to gain a fair edge, or was somebody picking up the Eagles defensive calls from a sideline camera that deprived them of a fair shot?

"I think they should forfeit, man," said punt returner Reno Mahe, smiling. "We won the Super Bowl. I think we should get it. I'm going to go trade my NFC championship ring for a Super Bowl ring."

The headline over a picture of Belichick on the back page of Thursday's Philadelphia Daily News might have said it all: "Counterfeit RING: Spy Scandal Helps Explain Birds' Super Bowl Loss."

Hey, maybe the illicit tape would show once and for all if Donovan McNabb really did get sick in the huddle late in the game. Remember, that was Philadelphia's first excuse for losing.

McNabb -- who insisted the Eagles would never stoop to those kind of tactics -- was surprised to hear the allegations against the Patriots. But he said the suspicions might be overblown.

"One thing people are forgetting is that even if you have the answers to the test, you still have to take the test," he said. "If they have an idea of what's coming, those guys still have to be able to execute the play."

That doesn't mean McNabb won't clear some space in his jewelry box. For a city that last saw a pro team win a championship nearly 25 years ago, the Eagles might accept a retroactive one.

"Maybe we'll get our ring back," said a chuckling McNabb. "Maybe we'll get the real one."

HolmeZz
09-13-2007, 07:17 PM
Yep. The NFL would probably take the higher of the 2.

Considering it's dependent on whether or not they make the playoffs, they're probably going to take the Patriots original first rounder.

blueballs
09-13-2007, 07:18 PM
None of this happen
until Randy Moss showed up

tk13
09-13-2007, 07:18 PM
Yeah, if they take a 1st rounder I'd bet it's the Pats pick, not one they acquired through a trade.

pikesome
09-13-2007, 07:18 PM
And people thought I was making stuff up in the other Pat cheating thread. Whether the rings are clean or not, this is the kind of crap Pats fans are going to hear because BB thought he needed a camcorder to beat the Jets.

Fairplay
09-13-2007, 07:18 PM
Belichek fined 500,000 K is a lot of cash even to that rich Mo-fo.

That would hurt writing that check out, maybe few tear stains on it and especially the ol'lady mad at you for a month of Sundays.

Iowanian
09-13-2007, 07:19 PM
Oooh Hoodie, most shirts stop at the neck, but you say "oh no, the head needs a garage to hide the illegal camera in from NFL security". Your arms would pull off long before our coach stops cheating like a Denver Bron co.


http://champdesreves.files.wordpress.com/2007/03/bill-belichick-banzai.jpg

Fruit Ninja
09-13-2007, 07:19 PM
The ****ed up thing about this doesnt have anything to do with the Patriots. Some guy lost out on his first round money.

penchief
09-13-2007, 07:25 PM
This is a good punishment. No one was even thinking it would be a first rounder.

I did. Well technically, I said, "if he wanted to make it hurt he would make it a first-rounder."

He must have wanted to make it hurt.

blueballs
09-13-2007, 07:27 PM
It's the Randy Moss curse
Vikings - Raiders - Pats

MGRS13
09-13-2007, 08:31 PM
So let me get this straight if you get 2 DUI's you get suspended for 2-4 games. This is stupid no doubt but has nothing to do with your team or the NFL. Now if you mess with the integrity of the game you get a fine and lose a pick? Somethings wrong with this. BB is a great coach but if he is cheating to win, and he is, and he gets caught he should face suspension.

Mr. Laz
09-13-2007, 08:49 PM
Patriots | Team will keep San Francisco's first-round pick
Thu, 13 Sep 2007 19:15:54 -0700

John Tomase, of the Boston Herald, reports the New England Patriots will keep the San Francisco 49ers' first-round draft pick for 2008. The Patriots will lose their own first-round pick in 2008 if they make the postseason.

Iowanian
09-13-2007, 09:07 PM
In a way...in his own Kraft-y way, BB likely premeditated this capture and fine, so as to save ownership the extra millions of dollars they'll not spend with yet ANOTHER 2 1st round Draft pick year.

Genius!

Frazod
09-13-2007, 09:12 PM
I've said it before - I've watched the Patriots win and win and win, but to me they've rarely looked impressive. It's always seemed strange.

Maybe now it's not so strange after all.

FAX
09-13-2007, 09:15 PM
I've said it before - I've watched the Patriots win and win and win, but to me they've rarely looked impressive. It's always seemed strange.

Maybe now it's not so strange after all.

They've been the second halfest, comebackest, making solid adjustmentsest team of all teams over the past five years, that's for sure, Mr. frazod.

It does give one pause. And concernests.

FAX

Logical
09-13-2007, 09:28 PM
I've said it before - I've watched the Patriots win and win and win, but to me they've rarely looked impressive. It's always seemed strange.

Maybe now it's not so strange after all.

I find this amusing, if they can steal the signals then maybe the other team is not mixing things up well enough. I think the penalty is fine but to think this actually helped them win seems silly.

Redcoats58
09-13-2007, 11:57 PM
I find this amusing, if they can steal the signals then maybe the other team is not mixing things up well enough. I think the penalty is fine but to think this actually helped them win seems silly.
If it didnt help them win or give them any type of advantage then why hire someone to record? You think its just a coincidence that the Pats are one of the better teams at making second half adjustments? Come on, thats being a little naive.

cadmonkey
09-14-2007, 06:09 AM
This is New York North, after all

HEY, watch it! :harumph:

cadmonkey
09-14-2007, 06:10 AM
Nice, maybe the Pats will be a little distracted this week.

very doubtful

cadmonkey
09-14-2007, 06:11 AM
Losing a first round draft pick would be huge for most teams, but they'll probably find some way to trade a guy for one or something.

We already have two first rounder this year coming up. So if we lose one we still have one.

Tribal Warfare
09-14-2007, 06:13 AM
Okay provide a link

Bill Parcells
09-14-2007, 06:16 AM
Okay provide a link
http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=169976

Amnorix
09-14-2007, 06:26 AM
However I heard on ESPN the PATS have 2 1st rounders next year.

Yes, right. We have the Niners' pick.

Amnorix
09-14-2007, 06:27 AM
So let me get this straight if you get 2 DUI's you get suspended for 2-4 games. This is stupid no doubt but has nothing to do with your team or the NFL. Now if you mess with the integrity of the game you get a fine and lose a pick? Somethings wrong with this. BB is a great coach but if he is cheating to win, and he is, and he gets caught he should face suspension.

I f you gave BB the choice of a suspension for 1, maybe even 2 games, or hte pick, he'd take the suspension.

The loss of pick is the gift that keeps on giving...

KcMizzou
09-14-2007, 06:29 AM
I find this amusing, if they can steal the signals then maybe the other team is not mixing things up well enough. I think the penalty is fine but to think this actually helped them win seems silly.The were told specifically not to do it, yet it was worth the risk to do it anyway. How was it worth the risk in their eyes if it didn't give them any advantage?

Amnorix
09-14-2007, 06:30 AM
They've been the second halfest, comebackest, making solid adjustmentsest team of all teams over the past five years, that's for sure, Mr. frazod.

It does give one pause. And concernests.

FAX

Not really. Usually we take the lead in the first half, and keep it in the second. Rarely blowing anyone out, but rarely needing to catch up.

Second half of the Colts game was whacky because our team turned to goo in that half, after taking a big lead, which was rare to see. Colts have done that to us consistently though. I remember one game against them, maybe in '03?, where we had a big lead and they came charging back in 2nd half to tie. We ended up winning by the skin of our teeth.

Amnorix
09-14-2007, 06:30 AM
very doubtful

I hope you're right. I'm a bit nervous about it.

Amnorix
09-14-2007, 06:31 AM
The were told specifically not to do it, yet it was worth the risk to do it anyway. How was it worth the risk in their eyes if it didn't give them any advantage?

I don't know, but nobody has been able to explain to me WHAT the advantage is either.

Clearly, it must have SOME advantage, or why do it. But what is it? I have no clue.

Otter
09-14-2007, 06:33 AM
http://graphics7.nytimes.com/images/section/learning/general/onthisday/big/0720_big.gif

/\
|

Dumb and Dumber reference.

If Green Bay was smart they would have:

A. Waited to see if they made it to the Super Bowl and used this against them

B. Sold the info to the NFC Champions

That's just my angle on it though.

cadmonkey
09-14-2007, 06:36 AM
I've said it before - I've watched the Patriots win and win and win, but to me they've rarely looked impressive. It's always seemed strange.

Maybe now it's not so strange after all.

It certainly does explain why the Patriots seem to always beat a team the second time they play them.

cadmonkey
09-14-2007, 06:38 AM
I hope you're right. I'm a bit nervous about it.


I'm not, we already have the film footage from last time we played them. We should be all set.

Amnorix
09-14-2007, 06:47 AM
I'm not, we already have the film footage from last time we played them. We should be all set.


ROFLROFLROFL

That's just WRONG.

Radar Chief
09-14-2007, 06:54 AM
I f you gave BB the choice of a suspension for 1, maybe even 2 games, or hte pick, he'd take the suspension.

The loss of pick is the gift that keeps on giving...

Oh Iím sure he would, even with the additional 1st round pick.

Iowanian
09-14-2007, 06:59 AM
Logical and the Pats fans don't understand why knowing the defensive signals and calls is a competative advantage on the field?

If Brady is signaled that the Jets just did the "su-fi" and that means a blitz package from the left side.....he can audible to a play that takes advantage of that call.

Thats one.

Extra Point
09-14-2007, 07:01 AM
This is not justice. They should be forced to trade their O-line, Tom Brady and Randy Moss to us for a warm 6 pack of Coors Light.

ROFL

Phobia
09-14-2007, 07:02 AM
I find this amusing, if they can steal the signals then maybe the other team is not mixing things up well enough. I think the penalty is fine but to think this actually helped them win seems silly.I remember when you used to be Logical.

Amnorix
09-14-2007, 07:06 AM
Logical and the Pats fans don't understand why knowing the defensive signals and calls is a competative advantage on the field?

If Brady is signaled that the Jets just did the "su-fi" and that means a blitz package from the left side.....he can audible to a play that takes advantage of that call.

Thats one.

You've got a 26 year old kid on the sideline "reading" defnesive signals through the video tape machin.

You've got 45 seconds to call play into the QB. The headset shuts off at whatever it is -- 7 or 10 seconds to go on play clock.

How does the kid see the signal, relay it to someone, who then radios it into Brady's headset, while he's in huddle or at LOS, fast enough? And did Charlie Weis really sit there and stare at the then 24 year old video kid, rely on him to correctly understand the signla, and change the play or blocking based on what the kid said?

It all seems very odd....

Maybe that is what happened, but it does seem weird.

Phobia
09-14-2007, 07:09 AM
You've got a 26 year old kid on the sideline "reading" defnesive signals through the video tape machin.

You've got 45 seconds to call play into the QB. The headset shuts off at whatever it is -- 7 or 10 seconds to go on play clock.

How does the kid see the signal, relay it to someone, who then radios it into Brady's headset, while he's in huddle or at LOS, fast enough? And did Charlie Weis really sit there and stare at the then 24 year old video kid, rely on him to correctly understand the signla, and change the play or blocking based on what the kid said?

It all seems very odd....

Maybe that is what happened, but it does seem weird.

If the system didn't work then why did BB keep risking $500k and a 1st round draft pick to utilize it? Obviously there was something to it or they wouldn't have employed the method. I think it's hilarious how Pats fans will downplay it now - like it was a failed experiment or something. Please.

Ugly Duck
09-14-2007, 07:13 AM
And people thought I was making stuff up in the other Pat cheating thread. Whether the rings are clean or not, this is the kind of crap Pats fans are going to hear because BB thought he needed a camcorder to beat the Jets.

Those Patsie Lombardis are no more legit than the Denver ones. Both will have cheater's asterisks in front of them. Forever tainted.

Amnorix
09-14-2007, 07:15 AM
If the system didn't work then why did BB keep risking $500k and a 1st round draft pick to utilize it? Obviously there was something to it or they wouldn't have employed the method. I think it's hilarious how Pats fans will downplay it now - like it was a failed experiment or something. Please.

ARGH.

Obviously it had SOME freaking benefit. Otherwise it would've been a waste of time, and BB is nothing if not efficient and meticulous.

But nobody has explained to my satisfaction how such a system would work.

I did NOT suggest it was a failed experiment or something, or even hint at it, so shut it.

Bill Parcells
09-14-2007, 07:19 AM
ARGH.

Obviously it had SOME freaking benefit. Otherwise it would've been a waste of time, and BB is nothing if not efficient and meticulous.

But nobody has explained to my satisfaction how such a system would work.

I did NOT suggest it was a failed experiment or something, or even hint at it, so shut it.
I think (from what I've heard) that the video is directly feeded somewhere and collected. then at halftime they try and absorb as much info as possible to make adjustments for the second half.

It's more to benefit them at halftime to make adjustments, than real time. from what I understood.

Phobia
09-14-2007, 07:20 AM
How would it work? Seriously? I know you're smarter than that, Amnorix.

Defense calls set. The last time they used that signal it was a corner blitz. Hey Tom, looks like you're gonna have a hot read in the right flat, CB coming hard this time. You might want to let Corey know to pick him up too.

ottawa_chiefs_fan
09-14-2007, 07:23 AM
More breaking news.....BB to get $500K raise in 08.

cadmonkey
09-14-2007, 07:25 AM
Logical and the Pats fans don't understand why knowing the defensive signals and calls is a competative advantage on the field?

who said we didn't understand why its an advantage? Its pretty easy to see why it would help if you knew what they were bringing at you.

BucEyedPea
09-14-2007, 07:26 AM
Those Patsie Lombardis are no more legit than the Denver ones. Both will have cheater's asterisks in front of them. Forever tainted.
Kinda like the Steeler's SB win too with refs in their corner.
Or the Buc's SB since we knew the Raider's playbooks hands down due to Gru.

When was this rule put into effect? I'm curious.

Regarding your sig, players had no idea this was going on. Hobbs refused to even believe it.

Bill Parcells
09-14-2007, 07:28 AM
Kinda like the Steeler's SB win too.
When was this rule put into effect? I'm curious.

Regarding your sig, players had no idea this was going on. Hobbs refused to even believe it.
Some youngsters feel betrayed up in Beantown, how sad.





BOSTON GLOBE

Feeling Un-Patriotic

Belichick's apology aside, young fans question sportsmanship

By David Abel

The 17-year-old center of the football team at Boston College High School searched for the right words to sum up his feelings about accusations that the Patriots videotaped signals that Jets coaches sent to players during New England's 38-14 rout in Sunday's season opener.

In the wake of earlier critical reports - safety Rodney Harrison's use of human growth hormone, coach Bill Belichick's shoving of a photographer - it dawned on Geoff Gottbrecht that the Patriots had begun to remind him of a certain other, little-loved team.

"We used to be America's team," said Gottbrecht, as he stretched between plays at football practice yesterday. "Now, we're like the Yankees - we're the bad guys, and it seems like everyone out there hates us. That's the worst part about this."

Gottbrecht and other teammates' disappointment echoed the anger over a brewing scandal that has left coaches throughout the region struggling with how to explain the seeming violation of NFL rules to their players, many of whom grew up lionizing the Patriots.

At a press conference yesterday, Belichick issued an apology after the spying allegations, which this week sparked headlines such as the San Jose Mercury News's "Suspend Belichick, or he'll cheat again" and the Vancouver Sun's "Belichick no better than Bonds?" referring to the San Francisco Giants' slugger accused of steroid abuse.

It was not clear whether Belichick was apologizing for his actions or the furor that ensued.

"Although it remains a league matter, I want to apologize to everyone who has been affected, most of all ownership, staff, and players," Belichick said. "Following the league's decision, I will have further comment."

The coach's vague apology angered some student athletes and coaches.

"I'm really mad about this," said Tom Duffy, 18, a BC High senior who plays linebacker. "How do they go out and cheat and expect us to look up at them? They really let me down."

Billy Miller, a 17-year-old senior who plays wingback, has rooted for the Patriots all his life.

"This is what you don't want to think about happening," he said. "They shouldn't have to cheat at their level. It's just sad."

The lesson for student athletes is how cheating just once can ruin a reputation, said Phil Vaccaro, athletic director of Reading Memorial High School and chair of the sportsmanship committee of the Massachusetts Interscholastic Athletic Association.

"I tell my kids, no matter what it is, you need to play fair," he said. "It will always come back to haunt you if you don't."

"It took the Patriots a decade to build a great reputation, and it can all come down on this," Vacarro said. "It only takes one bad judgment to ruin the reputation of your entire program. In the long run, everyone finds out everything. If you think you're getting away with something, it will be exposed, and then your reputation is gone."

Not everyone had a problem if the Patriots were spying on the sideline. Roosevelt Robinson, head coach of Madison Park Technical Vocational High School in Roxbury, said all football teams expect their opponents to try to steal their signals. He said the onus should be on the teams to protect their signals. "Everybody looks for an edge," he said. "Once you come out on the field, everything is fair game. You have to have your stuff together, so no one breaks your code. Hey, the military does it, why wouldn't you do it on another field of war?"

The problem is they violated a league rule, said Jim O'Leary, coach of St. John's Preparatory School in Danvers.

"When you break the rules, there has to be a consequence," O'Leary said. "This casts a pall over the whole team."

What should be the consequence for the Patriots?

Some fans and commentators have suggested the team be fined, lose draft picks, or suspend or fire Belichick.

Frank Deford, the veteran sportswriter and commentator on National Public Radio, said the NFL should strip the Patriots of the victory.

"I think the game was tampered with, and it should be forfeited," he said in a telephone interview. "If a game is not played by the rules, it's cheating. Cheating ain't right. Once people off the field start manipulating the game, that is as evil as someone fixing the game from the outside. There's no difference than what Belichick did and if he had a gambler throw the game. He's manipulating the game by using people who aren't the players."

Asked whether the Patriots' apparent efforts differed much from the code-breaking attempts in most baseball games, Deford said the difference was the use of the video camera.

"In baseball, it's accepted that you can steal signals, but you can't use any devices to do it," he said. "If I'm clever enough to do it from the dugout, then it's OK. I've outsmarted you. But if I have a guy sitting in centerfield with binoculars, that's not fair. . . . It has to be done without artificial assistance."

There is also the problem, he and others said, of the example set for children.

Jonathon Gates, president of the Mattapan Patriots' Pop Warner football team, said he wants better role models for his players.

"It's about character; you have to have great character," he said. "You teach kids that you don't take short cuts. To me, this was just wrong."

At BC High yesterday, as the team practiced passing and blocking, Mitch McClune said the Patriots game raises questions about how they won in the past.

"It's really disappointing," said McClune, 17, a senior who plays linebacker. "This really sets a bad example."

cadmonkey
09-14-2007, 07:30 AM
I know everyone is saying "if they did this in the Superbowls that those games are tainted", but if you look at those games, the Patriots played MUCH worse in the second half of all three of those games.

BucEyedPea
09-14-2007, 07:31 AM
AAhem Bill, Who said I didn't think they broke the rules or deserve no penalty?

Chiefnj2
09-14-2007, 07:31 AM
If there isn't enough time to steal the signs and get them to the players then why do coaches on the field that call plays always hide their mouth when making calls?

The punishment was a joke since NE has two 1sts, a 2nd and two third round picks.

pikesome
09-14-2007, 07:32 AM
Regarding your sig, players had no idea this was going on. Hobbs refused to even believe it.

This is a bit naive don't you think? They did something with the tape, if it wasn't shown to players it negates part of the benefit, I'm thinking. Brady especially, all of the supposition I've seen concerns adjusting the O based on stolen D calls, Brady would have had to been rather involved in that. Just because someone said they didn't know anything about doesn't mean their telling the truth.

cadmonkey
09-14-2007, 07:34 AM
If there isn't enough time to steal the signs and get them to the players then why do coaches on the field that call plays always hide their mouth when making calls?

The punishment was a joke since NE has two 1sts, a 2nd and two third round picks.


The penalty was made to set a precadent for all offenders down the road. Not everyone that gets in trouble is going to have a bunch of picks in each round. If we only had one pick in each round then it would seem fine wouldn't it.

BucEyedPea
09-14-2007, 07:38 AM
If there isn't enough time to steal the signs and get them to the players then why do coaches on the field that call plays always hide their mouth when making calls?

Stealing signals other ways is not against the rules, using technology is.
What if an artist sketeched the calls and noted the plays they matched? That would not be against the rules.

SI says at least 10 teams have done this, that its known to go on so if teams know it, wouldn't they have also developed ways to get around it to change things up. I would think so. And in doing so, it would also seem that it gives at best only a random edge.

Chiefnj2
09-14-2007, 07:38 AM
The penalty was made to set a precadent for all offenders down the road. Not everyone that gets in trouble is going to have a bunch of picks in each round. If we only had one pick in each round then it would seem fine wouldn't it.

Shouldn't the primary purpose of the penalty be to punish the offender?

dirk digler
09-14-2007, 07:39 AM
I know everyone is saying "if they did this in the Superbowls that those games are tainted", but if you look at those games, the Patriots played MUCH worse in the second half of all three of those games.

Wrong ask the Eagles. I posted the story from ESPN a couple of pages back.

This whole mess is questioning the legitimacy of that SB win and some have even started questioning whether Tom Brady is actually that good since he may have known prior to each snap exactly what the D was doing.

I am not saying that is right or I agree with it but this happens when you get caught cheating

BucEyedPea
09-14-2007, 07:39 AM
This is a bit naive don't you think? They did something with the tape, if it wasn't shown to players it negates part of the benefit, I'm thinking. Brady especially, all of the supposition I've seen concerns adjusting the O based on stolen D calls, Brady would have had to been rather involved in that. Just because someone said they didn't know anything about doesn't mean their telling the truth.
You don't KNOW that. You don't know how the information is conveyed to the players for certain to say that. You just want to believe they're all bad now.

Chiefnj2
09-14-2007, 07:39 AM
Stealing signals other ways is not against the rules, using technology is.
What if an artist sketeched the calls and noted the plays they matched? That would not be against the rules.

SI says at least 10 teams have done this, that its known to go on so if teams know it, wouldn't they have also developed ways to get around it to change things up. I would think so. And in doing so, it would also seem that it gives at best only a random edge.

Pay attention to what I said. I didn't say it isn't against the rules to read lips without the aid of technology. My post was directed at people that said there isn't enough time to read the signals and make adjustments. If there isn't time to do so then coaches wouldn't bother covering their mouths.

Extra Point
09-14-2007, 07:40 AM
Losing a first round pick means nothing to the PATs. They have done more with lower-round picks than most teams.

KcMizzou
09-14-2007, 07:40 AM
Shouldn't the primary purpose of the penalty be to punish the offender?Well, not when it's the Patriots.

Besides, everybody does it, and it really doesn't help anyway.


:rolleyes:

BucEyedPea
09-14-2007, 07:45 AM
Well, not when it's the Patriots.

Besides, everybody does it, and it really doesn't help anyway.


:rolleyes:
The person mainly responsible was punished.
The idea that everybody does it, plays on the sense that only one offender gets punished. You call that fair? You can't do anything about the others though. What you can do is send a message. If it wasn't enforced in the past much you start on a gradient. The letter. Now this. If another is caught it gets increased. The black PR it creates is a penalty too. But punishing to cripple a whole organization is just being vindictive.

dirk digler
09-14-2007, 07:46 AM
I got this from the OrangeDrain from all places but it is a good piece about Jim Bates stating it is a huge advantage

Bates says stealing signals an advantage
ENGLEWOOD - In the wake of Patriotgate, Bill Belichick's apparent practice of videotaping opponents' defensive hand signals, there has been some debate about the actual value of that information. So I went to a man who ought to know.

Jim Bates, the Broncos assistant head coach/defense, has no doubt.

"Oh, it would be a tremendous asset because the offense has 15 seconds before their communication with the headset goes off with the quarterback," he said. "So if the people on the sideline can tell the quarterback it's blitz, that quarterback knows it's blitz before the snap. He knows where he wants to go with the ball and if he wants to check off. They have checks for what we do on defense. It's a tremendous disadvantage for the defense if they can steal your signals."

Because coaches make their play calls from either sideline simultaneously, I asked Bates if there's enough time for an offense to tailor its play call to the defensive call.

"Oh, yes. Definitely," he said. "Even if they break the huddle, everybody is so sophisticated they can make a check-off at the line of scrimmage.

"We have to get in and out of the huddle because we want to see what formations are coming out, so we have to give our signals quick to our defense. So it's going to be, hopefully, long before the 15 seconds, before the sound system goes off for that quarterback in communication from the sideline."

Belichick is by no means the first coach to try to steal signals. Oddly, he may merely have been the most obvious, using someone on the sideline against a former employee familiar with the procedure.

"It's notorious that it goes on in the league," Bates said. "Either people steal 'em from the sidelines or they've got a coach assigned as far as trying to steal signals. I think it goes on quite a bit."

Like most teams, the Broncos have two or three people flashing defensive signals - some of them dummy signals - to make stealing them harder. Of course, if you have them all on videotape, you can just watch what the defense runs and figure out which signals were real.

"We try to disguise as much as possible," Bates said.

The obvious solution is to eliminate the need for hand signals by providing electronic communications between defensive coaches and defensive captains, just as the league does with offensive coaches and quarterbacks. Bates supports this proposal, and Broncos coach Mike Shanahan, who declined comment on the subject while Patriotgate is under investigation, has voted for it.

pikesome
09-14-2007, 07:47 AM
You don't that. You don't know how the information is conveyed to the players for certain to say that. You just want to believe they're all bad now.

This isn't the sort of critical thinking I'd expect from you. How we're they going to use the tape if it wasn't shown to the players, at least some of them? It is possible that the O coordinator could have had someone watching the signal tell him the defensive call and then tell Brady to change the call or to watch a certain part of the field. That wouldn't help if there was an audible on D as well as it would make it hard for blitz pick-up since the other offensive players don't have radios. It just seems like an awful lot of work and risk (since what was done was clearly against the rules) if they weren't going to use it.

BucEyedPea
09-14-2007, 07:48 AM
Pay attention to what I said. I didn't say it isn't against the rules to read lips without the aid of technology. My post was directed at people that said there isn't enough time to read the signals and make adjustments. If there isn't time to do so then coaches wouldn't bother covering their mouths.
I know what you said. I was adding that there are other ways to get it down visually to use for adjustments at the half too. Instead of just reading lips.

Amnorix
09-14-2007, 07:49 AM
Shouldn't the primary purpose of the penalty be to punish the offender?

Does Bill Gates get fined a billion dollars if he drove 80 in a 55?

BucEyedPea
09-14-2007, 07:51 AM
This isn't the sort of critical thinking I'd expect from you. How we're they going to use the tape if it wasn't shown to the players, at least some of them? It is possible that the O coordinator could have had someone watching the signal tell him the defensive call and then tell Brady to change the call or to watch a certain part of the field. That wouldn't help if there was an audible on D as well as it would make it hard for blitz pick-up since the other offensive players don't have radios. It just seems like an awful lot of work and risk (since what was done was clearly against the rules) if they weren't going to use it.
You're the one doing the assuming.

KcMizzou
09-14-2007, 07:51 AM
The person mainly responsible was punished.
The idea that everybody does it, plays on the sense that only one offender gets punished. You call that fair? You can't do anything about the others though. What you can do is send a message. If it wasn't enforced in the past much you start on a gradient. The letter. Now this. If another is caught it gets increased. The black PR it creates is a penalty too. But punishing to cripple a whole organization is just being vindictive."Everybody does it" is a piss poor excuse. Your team is being punished because YOUR TEAM GOT CAUGHT CHEATING.

"Everybody does it" is pure speculation, and it's irrelevant.

Also you can't use "it doesn't help us win", because if that's true then why the hell would "everybody" (as Pat's fans claim) do it? More specifically, why would the Pats, who have been warned?

The Pats cheated... end of story. Everything else it just spin, excuses, and plain old bullshit.

pikesome
09-14-2007, 07:52 AM
Does Bill Gates get fined a billion dollars if he drove 80 in a 55?

In Germany he might. That's how they do speeding tickets, it's based on the wealth of the offender.

On the other hand your not really talking about infractions of similar magnitude are you?

Chiefnj2
09-14-2007, 07:52 AM
Does Bill Gates get fined a billion dollars if he drove 80 in a 55?

Comparing perhaps a .000004% increased chance of a vehicular accident to the integrity of the NFL?

Skip Towne
09-14-2007, 07:53 AM
We're lucky Herm isn't smart enough to pull off something like this.

Planetman
09-14-2007, 07:54 AM
Kinda like the Steeler's SB win too with refs in their corner.
Apples and oranges. One can be proven. The other cannot. Stop drinking the red, white and blue Koolaid and take off the rose colored glasses.

Planetman
09-14-2007, 07:55 AM
We're lucky Herm isn't smart enough to pull off something like this.
LMAO ROFL

BucEyedPea
09-14-2007, 07:56 AM
The obvious solution is to eliminate the need for hand signals by providing electronic communications between defensive coaches and defensive captains, just as the league does with offensive coaches and quarterbacks. Bates supports this proposal, and Broncos coach Mike Shanahan, who declined comment on the subject while Patriotgate is under investigation, has voted for it.

If this was known to be going on around the league, I'm surprised this solution got voted down. It seems to be the only way around the issue. I still say if these hand signals can be drawn by a fast and accurate artist on the side lines and match to plays to get the same information and be within the rules for the same advantage.

BucEyedPea
09-14-2007, 07:57 AM
Apples and oranges. One can be proven. The other cannot. Stop drinking the red, white and blue Koolaid and take off the rose colored glasses.
It's called being a wiseass.

Planetman
09-14-2007, 08:00 AM
If this was known to be going on around the league, I'm surprised this solution got voted down.
Do you actually think through your answers before you hit the Submit Reply button?

Putting electronic communication devices in defensive players helmets would take away BB's (and others like him) opportunity to get the upperhand and cheat.

Cheaters = Vote no.

BucEyedPea
09-14-2007, 08:00 AM
"Everybody does it" is a piss poor excuse. Your team is being punished because YOUR TEAM GOT CAUGHT CHEATING.

"Everybody does it" is pure speculation, and it's irrelevant.

Also you can't use "it doesn't help us win", because if that's true then why the hell would "everybody" (as Pat's fans claim) do it? More specifically, why would the Pats, who have been warned?

The Pats cheated... end of story. Everything else it just spin, excuses, and plain old bullshit.
Can you read? Where did I say it was an excuse or exempt the Pat's from punishment. Nowhere. I just made a point that those not caught can't be punished and this will help stop it. And it is not speculation, there have been reports of this footage being watched in the booths per SI who said they know of at least 10 teams who did it.

Planetman
09-14-2007, 08:00 AM
It's called being a wiseass.
You're not very good at it. Don't quit your day job.

BucEyedPea
09-14-2007, 08:02 AM
Do you actually think through your answers before you hit the Submit Reply button?

Putting electronic communication devices in defensive players helmets would take away BB's (and others like him) opportunity to get the upperhand and cheat.

Cheaters = Vote no.
Actually, that did pass my mind. I almost added I wonder who voted "no."
Though it's not illogical that the cheaters voted "no" we don't have proof of that across the board.

Valiant
09-14-2007, 08:23 AM
Can you read? Where did I say it was an excuse or exempt the Pat's from punishment. Nowhere. I just made a point that those not caught can't be punished and this will help stop it. And it is not speculation, there have been reports of this footage being watched in the booths per SI who said they know of at least 10 teams who did it.



I swore when I seen that they said they know ten teams that try and steal signals.. They did not say they know ten teams that use a camcorder to steal the signals.. If they would have said that I am sure Goodell would have looked into it..

BucEyedPea
09-14-2007, 08:26 AM
No it was using video devices.

Micjones
09-14-2007, 08:28 AM
This legalistic stranglehold Goodell has on the NFL doesn't look as good as we all originally thought.

Keep tinkering Rog and you'll lose that big lead you've got on the other professional sports.

KcMizzou
09-14-2007, 08:35 AM
Can you read? Where did I say it was an excuse or exempt the Pat's from punishment. Nowhere. I just made a point that those not caught can't be punished and this will help stop it. And it is not speculation, there have been reports of this footage being watched in the booths per SI who said they know of at least 10 teams who did it.I was refering to the excuses being thrown around by Pats fans in general. I guess I shouldn't have quoted you.

This is what bothers me. Since they turned things around, the Patriots have been propped up as some sort of paragon of virtue. Supposedly, they were the model of character and integrity.

This obviously flies in the face of all that, yet I don't seem many Pat's fans who are pissed, or even embarrassed by it. That franchise had what may have been the best reputation in all of professional sports... and it's dead and gone now.

morphius
09-14-2007, 08:35 AM
If Goodell wanted to fix it he would make an executive order to give the D players a headset like the QB.

Anyone now beginning to wonder why Manning goes to the line so quickly on plays? Is it so that he can get info from his sideline in his headset on what D he is about to face?

Chiefnj2
09-14-2007, 08:45 AM
If Goodell wanted to fix it he would make an executive order to give the D players a headset like the QB.

Anyone now beginning to wonder why Manning goes to the line so quickly on plays? Is it so that he can get info from his sideline in his headset on what D he is about to face?

When the proposal was voted down in the offseason the reason given was a concern that there was too much substitution on defense and it would get confusing as to which player(s) would have the capability to have the helmet.

Perhaps you want your MLB to have the helmet but you call him off when the other team suddenly lines up with a 5 WR set. You'd have to have a backup player with the technology, etc.

OnTheWarpath58
09-14-2007, 08:48 AM
If Goodell wanted to fix it he would make an executive order to give the D players a headset like the QB.

Anyone now beginning to wonder why Manning goes to the line so quickly on plays? Is it so that he can get info from his sideline in his headset on what D he is about to face?

Wouldn't surprise me.

Dan Marino said last night on Inside the NFL that he knows personally of other teams that have done this.

I'm not saying that makes it right, but it doesn't appear to be an isolated isue, either.

I think the biggest problem with the Defense having a speaker in the helmet is deciding who to give it to.

What happens if you give it to a LB and he comes out in Nickle situations?

You can't give it to EVERY LB, because there would be more than 1 player with communications.

There's only 1 QB on the field at a time. You can't say that about any position on the defense over the course of a game.

FAX
09-14-2007, 08:48 AM
... Anyone now beginning to wonder why Manning goes to the line so quickly on plays? Is it so that he can get info from his sideline in his headset on what D he is about to face?

Great point there, Mr. morphius. This needs to be investigated.

Investigated with a ball bat and some really sharp dental tools.

FAX

boogblaster
09-14-2007, 08:51 AM
Fine them dirty cheating bastards .. and boycott Kraft cheese products ...

morphius
09-14-2007, 08:53 AM
Wouldn't surprise me.

Dan Marino said last night on Inside the NFL that he knows personally of other teams that have done this.

I'm not saying that makes it right, but it doesn't appear to be an isolated isue, either.

I think the biggest problem with the Defense having a speaker in the helmet is deciding who to give it to.

What happens if you give it to a LB and he comes out in Nickle situations?

You can't give it to EVERY LB, because there would be more than 1 player with communications.

There's only 1 QB on the field at a time. You can't say that about any position on the defense over the course of a game.
Like I said elsewhere, it was once reported that the rat paid lip readers to report on what the other team was saying. It may have been after that when they outlawed using binoculars and cameras.

Planetman
09-14-2007, 09:04 AM
This is priceless.
http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/images/reputationneg.gif Breaking news 09-14-2007 09:27 AM BucEyedPea I could care less what you think of me. Mr smug.
Sending a neg rep my ways OBVIOUSLY shows she cares. What a maroon! LMAO

Bill Parcells
09-14-2007, 09:08 AM
This is priceless.

Sending a neg rep my ways OBVIOUSLY shows she cares. What a maroon! LMAO
How lame, BEP is having a little meltdown.

I will counter that neg rep.hahaha!!!

Planetman
09-14-2007, 09:20 AM
How lame, BEP is having a little meltdown.

I will counter that neg rep.hahaha!!!
Thank you kind sir. :)

Her neg rep was my first ever. She took my neg rep cherry. I feel slightly dirty now. :Lin:

Bill Parcells
09-14-2007, 09:29 AM
Thank you kind sir. :)

Her neg rep was my first ever. She took my neg rep cherry. I feel slightly dirty now. :Lin:
Neg reps were all I got in the beginning..hahaha!

She has violated you, oh the irony!