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View Full Version : Ramifization of the Chiefs Continues...


ThaChop
05-24-2001, 03:45 PM
New commentary at....

http://KCChopper.homestead.com/KCChopper.html

Take care!

:cool:

htismaqe
05-24-2001, 04:02 PM
Just what we needed.

A link to a Proctor rant. :D


"Archetypal Gunther Cunningham receiver"? Give me a F---ING break...he was an HC for 2 seasons. He's been a defensive coach his ENTIRE career...there's NO SUCH THING as a "Gunther Cunningham receiver".

Johnny must have failed to listen to what DV actually said, or he would have seen that DV did acknowledge the 54 receptions, and the fact that Minnis most likely won't push Sly for the weakside position.

ChiTown
05-24-2001, 04:09 PM
Give it a rest Johnny!

For the love of God, we have yet to strap on our pads with Vermeil and you can't wait to defend Marty Guntherball. Well, I'll take, borrow or steal from the style of play that won the 2000 SuperBowl. You can have the brand of football that never won an AFC Conf Title even when we had home field advtg.

Just like Proctor, running into the trees cause he couldn't see the forest.

ChiefGator
05-24-2001, 04:44 PM
Great to read anything about Football, and I really do enjoy your site Stephen.

That said, though, I am also a little tired of the doom and gloom of Proctor.

1. "they are looking for anybody that didn't succeed under Schottenheimer or Cunningham." Simply wrong. Patton has been called the General and praised by GR and DV. As have Hicks, Browning, VRiley, WShields, TRich, Tait, and TGonzo, as have many more. He has spoken praises about most of the team, and most of the team will be the same. Someone had to replace Hasty, and I don't mind them bringing in some Veteran to help teach the one year vets the system.

2. "The abject preference for draft choices" I'm not sure who is asking the questions of DV for the KCChiefs website, but they are the ones constantly harping on the rookies. When asked who looks good, he rarely volunteers the rookies' names.

3. Morris.. Below are the only comments I could find from DV on him:

"Q: Any thought on (WR) Sylvester Morris and his rookie year. Have you talked with him directly regarding the demands of his job and the expectations the team has for him ?

VERMEIL: "He didn't come out of a major, major college program. The high-pressure football is now and, overall, you'd probably have to say he handled the pressure pretty well last year. He got banged up but no rookie reports to an NFL training camp as well prepared to compete as (he) does (his) second year. Now they're in the off-season program.

"Sylvester obviously has some talent or they wouldn't have drafted him in the first round but he's got a lot of rough edges. Fortunately, we've got (wide receivers coach) Charlie Joiner and (offensive coordinator) Al Saunders here to help him. But he's got a lot of work. It takes time. He's not a fast-twitch guy and has got to add that to his profile as a receiver. We do everything in our pass offense as fast as we can do it off the line of scrimmage, run through breaks. We're not a chop step, cut-type team. He can do that but it's not his habit right now. He wants to learn."

There is nothing wrong with what he said and he did not say that Minnis might replace him. In fact, earlier in the same interview when asked about what Minnis brought to the team, he said that his first task would be just to make the team.

Take a chill pill for 80 more days, and then you can complain, if the Chiefs lose the ever important first exhibition game.

I know you have a personal attachment to GC but this is the best thing for the Chiefs, IMHO.

-Mark

The Bad Guy
05-24-2001, 04:58 PM
Stephen,

When I click on Proctors latest column, it takes me to the May 8th article he wrote and not the 24th. I don't know if its a problem on my end or yours.

But, I will have to agree with the rest of the group if this is another pro Gunther/RBBC/Marty and anti Vermeil article.

It's ridiculous to comment on an offense that hasn't even run one play in full pads yet. If Proctor listened to Al Saunders on KCFX the other night, Saunders said this would be the Kansas City Chiefs offense because it will play to the strengths of the personnel we have here.

If Proctor did in fact say there was a Gunther Cunningham receiver than I will puke. I agree with HTIS, Cunningham's offenses never had a damn idenity for the two painful years he was the leader of our football team.

Big deal, he liked strong big receivers. He wasn't the first one to like receivers like this.

Give it up already Proctor. The red, white and yellow that you love so much now reside in Washington.

I think your very knowledgeable, but your Gunther and Marty homer glasses are taking away from seeing how much of a difference Dick Vermeil made on this team in four short months.

DV's four months drastically over-shadow Gunthers two years of hell with the Chiefs.

You may have enjoyed mediocrity the last two years, but I for one hated the lack of gameplans, no true running back, and the lack of discipline the Chiefs played with every week.

You can call us the Ramco's or it Martzyball all you want. I'd rather my team try to duplicate teams that have won 3 out of the last four Super Bowls.

How many titles did Martyball bring us again?

NaptownChief
05-24-2001, 05:05 PM
Guys,

I don't agree with his opinion but there is nothing wrong with having differing opinions...It's healthy...Plus, when he is wrong you will have plenty of opportunity to shove a big wedge of crow down his throat....:p

NaptownChief
05-24-2001, 05:25 PM
Punisher,

You are correct...Never been there so I guess I am a little out of touch on his usual commentary...

If all it takes is a little care package to sell him out then maybe DV's wife can knit him a sweater or something.:D

philfree
05-24-2001, 05:42 PM
Just another drop in Proctor's 'Trail Of Tears'. Come on Johnny get out of the past and start embracing your Chiefs.

PhilFree:cool:

DaWolf
05-24-2001, 05:50 PM
C'mon guys, it's Proctor's schtick. Just like Whitlock has his schtick (making dumbass comments) and Posnanski has his schtick (being sappy) Proctor needed a schtick, and his schtick is holding up the virtues of Martyball and the great Dumbther Cunningham...

Chiefs Pantalones
05-24-2001, 05:57 PM
Proctor,

Like Bobby Bowden said when asked why he's been so successful and how a coach continues to be successful..."I have been willing to change with the times, most coaches have a so called philosophy, which is fine...only if its for the "now. The coaches that don't survive in the NCAA and in the pros are the ones that aren't willing to change with the times. Its kind of trendy, I know, but as long as it gets my boys a W, thats fine with me."

Well said by Bobby Bowden, IMO. In other words, Proctor, DV got a championship because he was willing to change his philosophy to the updated version...Marty is a stubborn coach, and so is his long lost brother, Gunther, and thats why they weren't successful, IMO.

KCPHILLY
05-24-2001, 06:14 PM
I'm in total agreement with the others here. We hired a TRUE head coach to run our program here not a puppet to CARL or a MARTY clone to implament "business as usual" with a club that had a losing record last year. I personally would have no respect for the guy if he didn't do the things he's doing.

I also think it's pretty obvious you read your own meanings into the things he says and develope your own opinions on what he doesn't say. [[ He has some rough edges ]] No kidding. I think we're all in agreement on that except for you. MORRIS DID come from a small program and is a "work in progress" as an NFL reciever. Sure he caught 54 passes last year. I should hope so considering he was the #2 reciever on a team which had one million pass attempts. Nothing against THE CAT. He will be the #2 this year but DV's comment was on the money.

[[ They are looking for anyone that didn't succeed under SHOTTENHEIMER and CUNNINGHAM ]]... Huh? I notice you didn't list any of those players you're talking about here. Give us 1 example of a guy who he hasn't praised who deserves it.

NaptownChief
05-24-2001, 06:16 PM
"Sure he caught 54 passes last year. "

I think all 54 came in the SD game.:p

KCPHILLY
05-24-2001, 06:34 PM
Does Proctor post here? If so I would be real interested in seeing his prediction of the 2001 CHIEFS season.

Frazod
05-24-2001, 06:49 PM
I wonder if Proctor would like some cheese with his whine.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it. BUT ITS BROKE. FIX THE F#CKING THING! :mad:

Three decades without a Superbowl. We've gone from god-awful to magnificent failure to mediocrity. Time for something different.

Logical
05-24-2001, 08:50 PM
Sometimes I think there should be a whole point counterpoint on ThaChops site, but then I realize that whoever provided the counterpoint would have to say the same thing over and over again to refute Johnny's tired monologue on the abandonment of the Chiefs True Heritage. I quit looking and actually feel fortunate that John has found his outlet somewhere other than this BB or at the Park for this stale rhetoric.

So I say thank you to ThaChop for giving John and outlet that I will continue to ignore.

keg in kc
05-25-2001, 01:52 AM
Logical, you said it...

I don't mind Proctor's opinion, but flaunting ignorance in the face of overwhelming evidence doesn't impress me. The guy must be ignoring everything that's going on this offseason or he wouldn't be posting what he's posting, since, frankly, it's completely wrong, at least in terms of what the coaching staff seems to be doing.

He should have listened to the interview on Monday on 101 the fox, because that sure made it pretty clear that the "Ramifization of the Chiefs" is not what's happening here. Then again, the things said in that interview don't match up with KCJ's paranoid delusion, so, of course, he ignore's it and keeps ranting.

I didn't read the article, of course, the "chaplain"s article that is. I don't have to, because I know exactly what it says...

ThaChop
05-25-2001, 06:39 AM
Fellas,

I posted his commentary because I like to give people a chance to do so. I would love for someone to come back with a counterpoint as Mr. Logical said. There's ALWAYS a different side to things. Do I personally agree with John? Personally ThaChop doesn't, because I like Vermeil and what he's doing. It's true, John is still weeping over the loss of Gunther, and that's his right. I liked Gunther, but I love the Chiefs more. "Snoop" vs. Morris? I like both, but I want WHOEVER can do the job to play.

If you ever want to put your opinion for all to see on the KC Chopper, I invite you to do so.

tomahawkchop2@juno.com

Take care Chief fans!!!

ThaChop

ThaChop
05-25-2001, 06:59 AM
NFLScoopFrank,

When you go to the pages, if your browser doesn't automatically refresh, you'll have to. After you refresh, you should see it. Did you use to write for anyone? Laterz....

ThaChop

cathyb
05-25-2001, 07:32 AM
In reference to JP worshiping Gun because of the care package..... the reason he got it in the first place was because I wrote to Gunther and asked him to send a little something(I was hoping for a letter at best) to John and the troops. I got a letter back but no care package!
You'd think he'd be worshiping me!! Not!

The Bad Guy
05-25-2001, 07:59 AM
Stephen,

It was something with AOL when I tried to read the article. Their browser wasn't refreshing the page.

I wrote for NFLScoop.com from the time they started until they shut down.

I'm just hanging loose for now until some new possibilities open for me in the internet football world.

Clint in Wichita
05-25-2001, 08:16 AM
I disagree with the article entirely.

Vermeil won as many games in 1999 as Marty did in his entire career with KC.

Any other point is moot IMO.

ChiTown
05-25-2001, 08:39 AM
Clint, I think you meant to say is "Vermeil won as many playoff games in 1999-2000 season as Marty did in his entire career with KC".

Is that what you meant to say??

Chi
~playing mind reader

htismaqe
05-25-2001, 08:43 AM
You mean PLAYOFF games, right Clint?

If so, I agree with you 200%...

Clint in Wichita
05-25-2001, 08:54 AM
Yes...this head cold is screwing with my brain.

ChiTown
05-25-2001, 09:02 AM
Clint

I got the same cold /flu going with me. Maybe it's a Wichita Thang!!

HC_Chief
05-25-2001, 09:04 AM
Nah - it's going around in KC too

TheFly
05-25-2001, 08:28 PM
I think Proctor and Gunther should get married, don't you??!

Does Proctor's religious beliefs allow for same-sex unions when it involves football??!!

:p

Chiefs Pantalones
05-25-2001, 10:19 PM
Kyle,

Maybe you're on to something here. Maybe Johnny has...psychological problems?...:D ;)

milkman
05-26-2001, 05:59 AM
Johnny is so....uuhhh.....single minded in his focus on the things that he believes, that he fails to take notice of evidence that refutes those beliefs, such as VD's recent comments about T-Rich, in which he states that he doesn't see the limitatations that others have suggested that T-Rich has.
I imagine that the Chaplain has a shrine to Goother Magoo in his house somewhere, right next to his Marty shrine.

keg in kc
05-26-2001, 06:19 AM
Here's a copy of a post for Proctor that I put on PigSkin park to refute his claims. He made a comment that stated "IMO, you are in denial if you cannot recognize the trend of Gun's-guys-are-out, my-guys-are-in" which is apparently part of his rant on Stephen's site.

To which I responded:

Players lost
Anders: released, may retire
Bennett: granted free agency, signed by Washington
George: released
Grbac: released, signed by Baltimore
Grunhard: retired
Hasty: released, may retire
Lockett: free agent, signed by Washington
McGlockton: released, signed by Denver
Moon: retired
Saerbrun: released, signed by Washington

Players retained
Clemons: brought in under Cunningham
Dunn: brought in under Cunningham
Ransom: brought in under Schottenheimer
Shields: brought in under Schottenheimer
Warfield: brought in under Schottenheimer

Players signed
Allen: has played for Vermeil
Brister: has never played for Vermeil
Crockett: has never played for Vermeil
Holmes: has never played for Vermeil
Horne: has played for Vermeil
Green: has played for Vermeil
Owens: has never played for Vermeil
Stryzinski: has never played for Vermeil
Thomas: has played for Vermeil
Wiegmann: has never played for Vermeil

Recent statements by current KC staff about players who were some of "Gun's guys"

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tony (Gonzalez) catches your eye every day but you expect that. I think (OT) Victor Riley's made a real move; I think he's a better football player right now than he was last year...I've been very impressed with (DT) Steve Martin's improvement, (DT/DE) John Browning, (DE) Eric Hicks...Marvcus Patton is a real pro...Eric Warfield has the ability to be a starter...I can think of (OG) Marcus Spears right now. He's doing an awful good job at the left guard which he hasn't played...I can see why they drafted him in the first round. He's a man." (statements by Dick Vermeil, May 23)
Frank Moreau has had a real nice offseason. Mike Cloud has impressed us with his quickness and change of direction...Marcus Spears has looked good at guard. Donald Willis has filled in well at guard and Waters has done a nice job at center. (Al Saunders on KCFX, May 21)

Eric Hicks is a talented hard worker...Duane Clemons has found a home, a position. He knows he's a right defensive end and he knows what it takes to play the position. His skills and his athleticism will really begin to show... Dan Williams is a tremendous, explosive, powerful athlete. John Browning is a very good football player...Donnie Edwards is a fantastic athlete who can play sideline to sideline...Marvcus Patton is "the general", a tremendous leader on a football team because of his work ethic and his toughness and his ability to just play the game at a higher level. Very smart, heady football player that directs traffic. He's a roughneck. He brings a style to the inside part of your defense that you're looking for. On top of that he's an outstanding person who's well-respected...Mike Maslowski is working in the middle and can also play on the outside. He's a very good football player with a lot of attributes that you're looking for as far as the style of play...Those guys that have the desire to make themselves the best they can be and Greg (Wesley) really has displayed that so far. (Greg Robinson on KCFX, May 21)

"I'm very pleased. In fact, I'm more optimistic about him now than I was based on what I saw as a college player or on game tapes playing in Buffalo. I think he's a pretty good football player but you never know how good a quarterback is going to be until you put him in a ball game..." (Vermeil on Todd Collins, May 15)

I think he's very competitive in there but (LB) Marvcus Patton doesn't carry a white flag. Marvcus Patton is a serious professional football player; he takes his craft very seriously and prepares for the season. If it does happen it will be because Maz has been intense in his competition and preparation..."I keep hearing about (RB/FB) Tony Richardson's limitations but I just don't see them." (Vermeil, May 14)

It's all up for him, all he'll do is get better because he likes to work. He's a silent guy who comes to do his job and works very hard, is smart, concentrates. You haven't seen the best of him." (Vermeil on Greg Wesley, April 28)

we have some other good young kids including the two young kids from last year. They're doing well and Warfield (Vermeil on our cornerbacks, April 28).

That's a starting point for him. He's really dedicated himself this off-season and got himself in as good a shape as he's been in a long time. He's doing a good job and I'm proud of him.(Vermeil on Lew Bush, April 27)


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And, finally, regarding Morris v. Minnis from April 21st, Dick Vermeil on Minnis (note to planet: KCJ thinks Minnis is getting the nod over Morris for some reason...):


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"We need someone to step up and be our third receiver, whether it’’s going to be Tony Horne or Minnis, Parker, or Michael Ricks. He’’s our third round pick and we’d like him to make a contribution."

He ignored all this of course, and continued his tirade in the face of what amounts to nothing short of insurmountable evidence. And I didn't even bother to go into the argument that several players were released for salary cap reasons, since I doubt he'd listen to that either.

Kind of a shame, because he seems like a decent-enough guy.

milkman
05-26-2001, 06:31 AM
Kyle,
Were you around here last offseason to witness John's defense of the RBBC and the "legitimate accomplishment" of the Chiefs in '99.
Debating with John on any subject is like debating with a recorded message.

keg in kc
05-26-2001, 06:35 AM
He still uses that argument Red Eyes. I think I've refuted it a number of times, as well as his argument that Raye is a great offensive coordinator due to the "accomplishments" of the 2000 offense.

His responses are so predictable it's almost funny.

I guess he considers a running team in '99 and a passing team in '00 to somehow be the equivalent of good, balanced playcalling. ;)

milkman
05-26-2001, 06:54 AM
What gets me is that John always compares the '99 and '00 Chiefs to the Hank Stramm led Chiefs. And, of course, he always throws out stats to legitimize his arguments.
The problem is, however, that, the '99-'00 Chiefs resmbled those Stramm Chiefs about as much as Mimi from "The Drew Carey Show" resembles Halle Berry.
Somewhere recently, John tells us that he's been a fan of the Chiefs for about 20 years, yet he completely ignores those of us that have been fans of the Chiefs for 35 years or longer when we tell him that there is no resemblence.
Hell, I think these VD led Chiefs, with Green at QB, and Holmes and T-Rich sharing the load at RB, as most of us think might be the case, will come far closer to those Stramm led Chiefs than any of the Chiefs teams under Marty and Goonther.

ChiefGator
05-26-2001, 08:06 AM
Kyle,

The other thing to look at when you list the people he brought in is to look at who is going to start. Green is the only player which has been awarded starter status. Some of the others may not even make the team. Even Horne seems a little in doubt, when you hear DV talk about JJ Moses and a couple of the other players that could return punts/kicks.

Mark

ThaChop
05-26-2001, 08:13 AM
It's amazing how ONE man can get so many people all spun up. I guess that's why I went after him, I wanted a Jason Whitlock to ruffle some feathers. Now all I need is some Joe Posnanski's for the kinder but more gentle view. Please don't stop coming to the site, like one mentioned before, just because of John's opinion. The site is not dedicated to him, and if you've notice, there's plenty of room for another. Make it a personal thing if you want, and get on board to provide the other side of the story.

One thing I can say for John, whether you agree with him or not, he's dedicated to get something out and he puts thought into what he says. Do I agree? Like I said before, not all the time. If you've read some of my stuff on Wild Bill's I'm not a gloomy type of writer, but that commentary section is an opinion section. When I let somebody write, they're free to put it out there.

Plus, it gives you something to talk about until the real important stuff rolls around.... ; )


ThaChop :cool:

KCJohnny
05-26-2001, 01:58 PM
I'm very aware of the superior preparation Bobby Bowden's athlete's get at FSU. And let me further say that if there is a difference of opiniojn between DV and me, he's probably right. If Slymo was a rookie, I would have to nod approvingly at DV's 'small school' comments. But Morris was the #2 receiver in the NFL's 5th best passing attack last season. HELLO.
Now, please name me another rookie WR who played in a top 5 passing offense as the #2 WR. I realize many would consider Morris the #3 WR (Gonzales) but even at that, being the #3 WR in the a top 5 passing attack would be plenty of credentials for most players. Which brings me to my (extemely unpopular) point. There seems to be indicators of change for changes sake going on here (at least psychologically). There seems to be a movement afoot of "so what if it ain't broke? Fix it anyway!" Now, these are just my own worthless opinions, that's all.
If you go back and read Vermiel's comments on Morris from last week, you will get the same impression that he is treating Morris as a raw rookie and Minnis as a poised pro. We have no idea what Minnis will do in the big leagues (I think he'll do well), but we DO know that Sylvester Morris snagged 54 passes in his rookie season in the NFL's 5th most productive passing attack.
Chiefaholic: Technically (football-wise) there is nothing (radically) wrong with the Ramifization of the Chiefs. Spiritually, there is a LOT wrong with damning everything Chiefish and glorifying everything Ramish (IMO). If you root for the city and the uniform and hold pride in it, the wholesale sell-out to another franchise's players, coaches, coordinator's, systems, QB, and philosophies is rather demeaning.

Listen, guys: the first time I see Tony Richardson bust one up the middle or Gonzo snagging Green's passes all will be forgiven. I just hope we will maintain at least a little Kansas City personality.

KCJ

:cool:

KCJohnny
05-26-2001, 02:00 PM
From April 27th on kcchiefs.com:
"I don't think it will be a drastic change, maybe a little more emphasis on different things. I'll have to coach here five years and average 12 wins a season to win as many games as (former Chiefs coach) Marty Schottenheimer has already won. He was a great football coach. He didn't do anything wrong, he just didn't win the world championship. And Gunther (Cunningham) they were even - 16-16. We've got to do a lot of things better, but maybe not so much better but a little bit different. A little different emphasis, add some more talent to the roster, little more push from the offensive side and get the (special) teams going again. Then we're back in the hunt."


Very gracious words and a manly acknowledgment that exceeding the standard that Schottenheimer set will not be easy.

Go Chiefs!
KCJ

DV must think Marty is a genius!!!! http://realteam.com/insiders/PublishedArticles/10262.jsp

KCJohnny
05-26-2001, 02:08 PM
First of all, its the off season and I am trying to stimulate discussion, which I have, rather than report events, which I leave to the experts.
Secondly, I am speculating on an intangible aspect of the team (wholesale influx of all things Rams) not criticizing actual decisions (few of which have been made yet).
I fully expect Slymo to be the starting WR on opening day, but there are no jobs safe save the people Vermiel handpicked (Green, Holmes, etc.).

Minnis is attracting a lot of media attention and face it, Vermiel thinks the world of FSU alumni.

The angle I was trying to build in my column was the two WRs both being examples of Cunningham's (Sly) and Vermiel's (Snoop) philosophies of offense. The only thing I have criticized (and will continue to frown on) is the uncritical welcome of all things Rams by us fans and the bitter irrational condemnation of the '99-00 Chiefs who actually built one of the league's better offenses. The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence, yadda yadda, but I want to see where a lot of proramifization advocates stand in December, as DICK VERMIEL stated in his 5 DEC 00 column that December is rushing time. link at
http://realteam.com/insiders/PublishedArticles/10322.jsp

KCJ

NaptownChief
05-26-2001, 02:16 PM
Originally posted by KCJohnny

If you go back and read Vermiel's comments on Morris from last week, you will get the same impression that he is treating Morris as a raw rookie and Minnis as a poised pro.
:cool:


When you watch them side by side running routes that's what it looks like...

Plus Minnis will make the majority of his catches with his hands as opposed to body catching too many like SlyMo...

As for 54 grabs in a top five passing offense, I can't imagine any receiver in the league that was on the field all the time in a all out passing attack that would not come up with at least 54 grabs...

As for keeping something that looks like traditional Chiefs football, well I say keeping the same uniforms will do...:D

KCJohnny
05-26-2001, 02:26 PM
I am also disappointed in the ungentlemanly tenor to many of the replies on this thread, which I did NOT initiate, nor did I ask to have posted here (no harm done, Steve, drive on).

This is one of the reasons I prefer the quiet atmosphere of Pigskin park or even the open zoo of the Star BB.

My opinions are just that, MY opinions. You do not have to agree or even respond.

I have been accused of Vermiel bashing, attacking the yet-to-be-seen '01 Chiefs etc... but where is the proof? Because I am not touting the planet's monolithic party line I am somehow out of touch with reality?

I am NO expert on NFL football. This is a lighthearted diversion for me, and nothing more. Do I make mistakes in my columns? Plenty! Do I generate discussion? You decide.


Finally, thanks for insulting me on Memorial day weekend.
KCJ
82nd Airborne Division

NaptownChief
05-26-2001, 02:34 PM
KCJ,

I hope you don't think that I am busting on you...If you read the whole thread you probably saw that I said differing opinions are healthy and that everyone shouldn't get so worked up over it....

KCJohnny
05-26-2001, 02:38 PM
Naptown:
Your opinions are accepted by me for what they are: YOUR opinions.

Personal insults, ridicule, etc... stand more as a comment on the people making them than the one they are commenting on.

KCJ

NaptownChief
05-26-2001, 02:44 PM
KCJ,

When they do the fly by tomorrow at the track, I will throw a salute your way...

Have a good weekend...

BigMeatballDave
05-26-2001, 02:50 PM
Johnny - I understand that you like Gun. I liked him too - as a defensive coordinator. He is no more a head coach than I am a gymnist(5'11'
375lbs.) A change had to be made! You have to see that. DV has coached in 2SB. Gun had a 16-16 record. This is a no-brainer.

KCJohnny
05-26-2001, 02:52 PM
'Punisher':
If everyone is so sick of my 'endless spew' (I haven't posted on the planet in a month) why has this topic attracted 600+ hits in 2 days before I ever even got my first reply on?

KCJ
Endless spewer and guilt tripper

KCJohnny
05-26-2001, 02:53 PM
Dave:
Amen.
KCJ

The Bad Guy
05-26-2001, 05:45 PM
Proctor,

I can speak from experience over this.

I know it was probably not your intent to ensure a riot on both boards, but when you write a column or opinion piece, be prepared to take the criticism that comes with it.

On several columns I wrote for NFLScoop, I would get e-mails that were supportive, or questioning how much I knew about the NFL.

It's the nature of the game.

It's simple. If you don't want to attract a response on your opinions, don't format them into an article for public viewing.

When it's posted on the web, people have a right to discuss what they agreed with or disagreed with in your column.

You are basically responding to your critics on the board. Don't get defensive, and people who resort to personal attacks don't have the intelligence to express themselves in a correct way.

I can understand both sides of this argument.

I can understand you wanting to defend your opinions, but I can also understand some of the bulletin board posters when they say let a preseason snap happen before you start passing judgement on a team that is a mystery to everyone right now.

Your a good man Proctor, and I also will salute you and all the rest of the veterans this weekend, but don't take criticisms to heart.

If you do that, it takes all the fun out of writing.

Have a great Memorial Day weekend everyone.

KCJohnny
05-26-2001, 09:04 PM
Frank,
Well said. I can take the heat. I can definitely benefit from thoughtful posters like keg and otter, and many others. Those who resort to sophomoric ridicule are clearly out of intellectual ammunition, not to mention well short of the minimal requirements of citizenship.

The people who contend I keep repeating myself have not actually read my columns. I may not tickle your itching ears with what you want to hear, but I am true to my values and definitely true to my team, the Kansas City Chiefs.

Finally, I spent the 1998-2000 seasons on these very BBs doing more positive promo for the Chiefs than all you planeteers COMBINED. Now that I do not have 100% agreement with the Planet party line, I am treated like a cyber pariah.

When the regular season begins, you will all see that I am still securely ensconced as one of the chief homers, homers-in-chief, or whatever you call us blind loyalists. My opinions are just that, MY opinions, and I thank those you who have indulged me in pursuing my fandom of the Chiefs in this forum.

Happy Memorial Day!
KCJ

If you love your freedom,
THANK A VETERAN.

keg in kc
05-26-2001, 09:21 PM
John, the frustration with you, at least for me personally, is that you continue to blindly bash Vermeil and this new staff for things that are clearly contrary to their own statements and history. I don't know if it's because you have a misperception about who and what they are and what they intend to do, or if it's because you just can't deal with the trauma of the end of the Schottenheimer era, but in any event it's difficult to deal with someone who refuses to acknowledge literally dozens of comments and/or reports which completely refute, and clearly I might add, his stated opinion. Vermeil is not a pass-pass-pass coach who doesn't care about either the running game or the defense. Vermeil has had nothing but glowing praise for the players on this team, especially the veterans which were established under Schottenheimer/Cunningham. Vermeil has not spoken any ill about players who were released in the early March cap purge.

It's amazing how open, and dare I say honest, this coach is being with us. He's had a question and answer session posted on the Chiefs website almost weekly and we're not even close to the beginning of the season. Let's just enjoy it for now, and save the hardcore analysis and criticism for a little later in the year...

KCJohnny
05-27-2001, 07:13 AM
Kyle,
You're such a peach.
Swell guy.
I luv ya, man.
Disagreement is not the same as bashing.
I am well read on these topics, I like Vermiel as a person, I like the potential of the new offense, and YES, I AM having a hard time watching the team I have loved for so long become Rams in Chiefs shells.
The main commodity on these bulletin boards is OPINION. Not analysis, expertise, predictions, political correctness, or even advertising, but OPINIONS. That is the SOLE reason I come here.
Now, you are either instructing me on how to formulate YOUR opinions, or 'correcting' mine. An opinion can't be wrong, its highly subjective. Do you think I actually don't know how obtuse and unreasonable my opinions seem on this BB? Of COURSE I do. That's part of the interaction here in cyberspace. Again, what I am bringing to the table is NOT expertise, but opinion, MY opinion, FWIW, that opinion attracted over 700 hits in 3 days here.

I appreciate your efforts to enlighten me, but what you esteem to be obtuse stubbornness I proudly hail as loyalty. And that is 100% intangible, subjective OPINION.

I know I am wrong in your eyes and the eyes of most. But I still have a place at the table of Chiefs fans, don't I?

KCJ

htismaqe
05-27-2001, 07:54 AM
Howdy, Chaplain!

John, you're one of my favorite souls around these parts, you really are...

but "Rams in Chiefs shells"?

Stop it already! :D

This offense won't look nearly as much like St. Louis when they get done with it, and the defense CERTAINLY won't...

You're a longtime football fan, right? You like bringing up Hank Stram...do you remember Don Coryell? Dan Fouts? Kellen Winslow?

THERE IS NO WAY IN HELL THAT SAUNDERS AND VERMEIL JUST IGNORE TONY GONZALES...do I need to repeat that?

Our offense will use more 2-back sets (Holmes and TRich). Our offense will feature a tight end.

KCJohnny
05-27-2001, 08:27 AM
Mr. Parker:
You ought to know how badly I want to believe that!
The thing that has my dander up is the (very) early preliminary signals that I see indicate change for change's sake. I sincerely hope I am wrong.

It is not so much Vermiel's historical record that I have in question. It's his dogged determination to template the 2001 Chiefs as the 1999 Rams, and you all know what I am talking about! Just read his interviews.

The choices of Peter Guinta as DBs coach (DC for 2000 Rams- worst defense in the NFL) and Greg Robinson as DC (DC for '00 Donx- ranked #30 in pass defense) spelled something that might look a lot closer to the '00 Rams than the '99 version. One thing we all forget about the '99 Rams is that they played the #31 toughest schedule that year and had a 17 point lead in the first quarter every week.

Finally, Its the off season, pre-training camp, there is precious little news, and I am just trying to generate discussion. What else is there to BUT speculate?

One thing I would like everyone to consider: wht are power polls such as the CBSsortsline projecting KC as bottom feeders?

KCJ
cyber pariah on this planet

htismaqe
05-27-2001, 08:45 AM
Johnny,

Don't think I've forgotten...you were one of the only guys that supported me last year when I defended Gunther and tried to be optimistic about the Chiefs...

I think one thing you'll notice with me is that no matter what's going on with the team, I'm always on the bright side of things.

I honestly don't think this is change for change's sake. This team was not only losing games, but also losing heart, and it came from the staff. Nothing less than a complete gutting would have worked, IMO.

Don't forget, before Al Saunders was OC here -- yes, he was a coach under Vermeil in St. Louis -- he was long time staffer under one Marty Schottenheimer...

As for the defense, Robinson will bring an attacking style that we desparately need. The soft zone killed us more than anything else last year. The weakness of the Denver D was more personnel than coaching. They had some very, very good defenses under Robinson.

hehe...CBS Sportsline...don't even get me started on Pasquarelli...

Some things will never change, regardless of coaching staff -- like the fact that Chiefs NEVER get any respect :D

KCJohnny
05-27-2001, 09:48 AM
Brother Parker:
Then from one optimist to another, have faith in me that I will ride out the storm and be back behind my rose colored glasses by opening day. This is like family. We can point out one another's faults, but let a donk or a fader? NO WAY. After kick off, no more interior criticising from me.

Of course, that's a pledge, not a promise. (invoking Clintonspeak).

KCJ

Otter
05-29-2001, 07:25 PM
KCJ,

As I said in the past, I know where you’re coming from concerning you ‘ramification”.

I posted on the Star when it was still up that I’d rather re-build and deal with a couple more seasons of mediocrity than to “paint the Rams red and win a championship.”

I gave up protesting although. I’m helpless to change any of the above although so I don’t devote too much energy towards it.

Besides, I liked DV before he came here and it really was time to purge the maulball philosophy. That was Marty’s way and Marty is in Washington now.

If you want controversy how about the fact that:

I’m more furious that the Chiefs didn’t draft Brees or at least McMahon to be a QBOTF. We have three QBs all past their 30th birthday.

Or how about the fact that after 10 years of not having a 1,000-yard rusher we didn’t get LT, Deuce or Barlow?

Or the fact that we signed a 34-year-old CB to a 6-year deal? (**yep – he’s ours till he’s 40 – eat your heart out!!**)

Or how about the fact that the draft next year is very weak at RB and QB positions after not addressing them this draft!?!?


otter
~just waiting to throw an “I told you so” when Brees is the best QB in the AFC West

milkman
05-29-2001, 07:28 PM
Otter,
Don't hold your breath on the Brees thing, else you could be resembling the Rams colors.