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View Full Version : The Pats and Cheating: Explain this to me


'Hamas' Jenkins
09-20-2007, 11:13 PM
Yeah, another video thread. But this is from ESPN, and I'm wondering WTF the league would do this....

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3029661

NEW YORK --

The NFL has received and destroyed all materials it requested from the New England Patriots concerning videotaping of opponents' sidelines.

A league statement Thursday said the team was in compliance with a request for tapes and other documents.

"The Patriots have fully cooperated and complied with the requirements of the commissioner's decision," the statement said. "All tapes, documents and other records relating to this matter were turned over to the league office and destroyed, and the Patriots have certified in writing that no copies or other records exist.

"League policies on in-game videotaping and audio communication will continue to be closely monitored and strictly enforced with all 32 teams."

Last week, Patriots coach Bill Belichick was fined $500,000 by NFL commissioner Roger Goodell and the team was fined $250,000 for violating a league rule that prohibits clubs from using a video camera on the sidelines for any purpose -- including recording signals relayed to opposing players on the field. New England also must forfeit a first-round draft pick next year if it makes the playoffs or a second- and third-rounder if it doesn't.

A video camera aimed at Jets coaches was confiscated from a Patriots employee during the first quarter of the team's 38-14 win Sept. 9 over New York. Jets coach Eric Mangini has had a cool relationship with Belichick since leaving as Patriots defensive coordinator after the 2005 season.

When asked if the Patriots' defensive players also used microphones or other recording devices in their shoulder pads to pick up Jets audibles, NFL spokesman Greg Aiello said: "We have no evidence to support that claim."

Buck
09-20-2007, 11:15 PM
Yeah, another video thread. But this is from ESPN, and I'm wondering WTF the league would do this....

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3029661

NEW YORK --

The NFL has received and destroyed all materials it requested from the New England Patriots concerning videotaping of opponents' sidelines.

A league statement Thursday said the team was in compliance with a request for tapes and other documents.

"The Patriots have fully cooperated and complied with the requirements of the commissioner's decision," the statement said. "All tapes, documents and other records relating to this matter were turned over to the league office and destroyed, and the Patriots have certified in writing that no copies or other records exist.

"League policies on in-game videotaping and audio communication will continue to be closely monitored and strictly enforced with all 32 teams."

Last week, Patriots coach Bill Belichick was fined $500,000 by NFL commissioner Roger Goodell and the team was fined $250,000 for violating a league rule that prohibits clubs from using a video camera on the sidelines for any purpose -- including recording signals relayed to opposing players on the field. New England also must forfeit a first-round draft pick next year if it makes the playoffs or a second- and third-rounder if it doesn't.

A video camera aimed at Jets coaches was confiscated from a Patriots employee during the first quarter of the team's 38-14 win Sept. 9 over New York. Jets coach Eric Mangini has had a cool relationship with Belichick since leaving as Patriots defensive coordinator after the 2005 season.

When asked if the Patriots' defensive players also used microphones or other recording devices in their shoulder pads to pick up Jets audibles, NFL spokesman Greg Aiello said: "We have no evidence to support that claim."

Because FOX got a hold of the original spy tape and the NFL didn't want anymore leaks.

SBK
09-20-2007, 11:15 PM
They can't handle the truth......>>Jack Nicholson

'Hamas' Jenkins
09-20-2007, 11:19 PM
Because FOX got a hold of the original spy tape and the NFL didn't want anymore leaks.

I'm just wondering how long a cop would keep his job if he was called to testify about a robbery and when they asked him about fingerprints at the scene he said "Oh, I collected, reviewed, and then destroyed all the evidence."

pikesome
09-20-2007, 11:25 PM
I'm just wondering how long a cop would keep his job if he was called to testify about a robbery and when they asked him about fingerprints at the scene he said "Oh, I collected, reviewed, and then destroyed all the evidence."

The NFL is a law unto itself. They aren't bound by any of the rules we would think of in a criminal or even a civil court case for internal things. I do wonder if there is some sort of record keeping requirement this would fall under, I'm guessing no since it's not financial in nature.

Buck
09-20-2007, 11:28 PM
I'm just wondering how long a cop would keep his job if he was called to testify about a robbery and when they asked him about fingerprints at the scene he said "Oh, I collected, reviewed, and then destroyed all the evidence."

Its totally different.

That would be the same as the US Government destroying evidence, not one Government employee.

pikesome
09-20-2007, 11:31 PM
Its totally different.

That would be the same as the US Government destroying evidence, not one Government employee.

But the US Gov has laws it's supposed to follow about stuff like this. The NFL doesn't (mostly).

Buck
09-20-2007, 11:33 PM
But the US Gov has laws it's supposed to follow about stuff like this. The NFL doesn't (mostly).

Agreed...If I'm not mistaken its a Private Entity and can do whatever it wants as long as it doesn't break any laws.

pikesome
09-20-2007, 11:42 PM
Agreed...If I'm not mistaken its a Private Entity and can do whatever it wants as long as it doesn't break any laws.

There are laws that govern what kind of stuff companies must archive but I'm not sure what the rules are and, I think, it's much lower for privately held companies like NFL teams (with the exception of GB of course). I sure the NFL's agreement with Uncle Sam on the anti-trust thing also gives them special rules, probably easier than other companies.

'Hamas' Jenkins
09-20-2007, 11:53 PM
I'm not saying it's a prosecutable offense, I'm saying that the NFL should be viewed in the same way as that cop would most likely be by the majority of the populace.

Amnorix
09-21-2007, 05:59 AM
I'm not saying it's a prosecutable offense, I'm saying that the NFL should be viewed in the same way as that cop would most likely be by the majority of the populace.

Why?

The NFL made sure the Pats could get any future benefit from their past crimes, which were punished by a penalty WORSE than ANY ever received by any NFL team in the entire HISTORY of football.

What's the problem?

Short Leash Hootie
09-21-2007, 06:03 AM
Why?

The NFL made sure the Pats could get any future benefit from their past crimes, which were punished by a penalty WORSE than ANY ever received by any NFL team in the entire HISTORY of football.

What's the problem?
Your team is a bunch of winners and the rest of the fans of every other NFL team are extremely jealous (myself included)...that's the problem.

Finally, with this incident, we have something to make fun of Patriots fans for...and it feels excellent.

Amnorix
09-21-2007, 07:07 AM
Your team is a bunch of winners and the rest of the fans of every other NFL team are extremely jealous (myself included)...that's the problem.

Finally, with this incident, we have something to make fun of Patriots fans for...and it feels excellent.

Yes, I don't blame you.

As I've said before, at least people have a reason to CARE one way or the other. I remember being the NFL's laughingstock. The "Patsies", whose only competition was the "Bungles" for the biggest joke in the NFL.

To be hated for being so good ---- I can live with that. :LOL:

BucEyedPea
09-21-2007, 07:13 AM
I am only too willing to see the controversy keep going...after they played like they did Sunday night. Nothing like an "us against the world" mentality to rally the troops.

I think Goodell was po'd about the other tape being leaked. I also think he knew it would be bad for the image of the entire NFL if he kept digging.

Simply Red
09-21-2007, 07:13 AM
Yes, I don't blame you.

As I've said before, at least people have a reason to CARE one way or the other. I remember being the NFL's laughingstock. The "Patsies", whose only competition was the "Bungles" for the biggest joke in the NFL.

To be hated for being so good ---- I can live with that. :LOL:
I hear Tom Brady gets all the chicks. Is that true?

BucEyedPea
09-21-2007, 07:19 AM
Does anyone care that the Dolphins did the same thing to the Pats, taped Brady, and bragged about it openly? That game coulda changed HFA. Nope, because it's not the Pats.

Brady never whined about though, he just said he didn't execute.

pikesome
09-21-2007, 07:28 AM
Why?

The NFL made sure the Pats could get any future benefit from their past crimes, which were punished by a penalty WORSE than ANY ever received by any NFL team in the entire HISTORY of football.

What's the problem?

Destroying evidence sounds like a Watergate-esque cover up to a lot of people. I think that's part of people's feelings about the evidence being destroyed. The point that gets missed is that you're very right, the punishment was rather large considering past punishments and by destroying tapes and such any "illegal" intel gathered was removed. I'm sure there was also a "do this again and your ****ed" warning. Short of concrete proof that games were won because of the cheating I'm not sure what more could have been done. I would have liked to see a suspension but more because that would seem to be in line with the player discipline than anything else.

pikesome
09-21-2007, 07:30 AM
Does anyone care that the Dolphins did the same thing to the Pats, taped Brady, and bragged about it openly? That game coulda changed HFA. Nope, because it's not the Pats.

Brady never whined about though, he just said he didn't execute.

Some people cared.

BucEyedPea
09-21-2007, 07:35 AM
Good Gawd! It's not like the Patriot's destroyed the evidence.
And the NFL controls the audio signals.

In fact BB filming on the sidelines was blatently open....more like snubbing his nose at the rule. Prolly because he thought it was stupid. BTW a camera on the sideline is against the rules....what they film is irrelevant.

And Pikesome, I also heard that tape by the Dolphin's was bought from an outsider. I don't know the truth on that...but that's sounds like a legal way of doing the same thing. Stealing sigz is not against the rules. Just having a camera on the sideline is.

pikesome
09-21-2007, 07:44 AM
Good Gawd! It's not like the Patriot's destroyed the evidence.
And the NFL controls the audio signals.

In fact BB filming on the sidelines was blatently open....more like snubbing his nose at the rule. Prolly because he thought it was stupid. BTW a camera on the sideline is against the rules....what they film is irrelevant.

And Pikesome, I also heard that tape by the Dolphin's was bought from an outsider. I don't know the truth on that...but that's sounds like a legal way of doing the same thing. Stealing sigz is not against the rules. Just having a camera on the sideline is.

I'm not arguing that the destruction was bad, I'm with Amnorix here, just that Americans expect things to work like they do in the justice system even if the rules are totally different.

Saban said they watched TV and game tape which would be legal. Now, if they did cheat I'm guessing he wouldn't admit to it. Buying a specially made tape off a PI (or whoever) would seem to violate the "technological means" part we keep hearing about. One would wonder though if enhancing a TV broadcast with computers would be a violation too. The problem was, probably, that there was no evidence. The Pats wouldn't have gotten in trouble unless that camera guy was caught either because there was no proof.

BucEyedPea
09-21-2007, 07:53 AM
Per what I read Phins bragged openly about the game afterwards that they had recorded tape of Brady's cadences.

I only saw the written rule on sideline cameras. I haven't see the one on teams using technology ( they can in some cases) Someone else using technology to sell to a team later wouldn't exactly be the team using technology or so it seems. Without seeing the actual rule...it seems like it could be a loophole.

pikesome
09-21-2007, 07:59 AM
Per what I read Phins bragged openly about the game afterwards that they had recorded tape of Brady's cadences.

I only saw the written rule on sideline cameras. I haven't see the one on teams using technology ( they can in some cases) Someone else using technology to sell to a team later wouldn't exactly be the team using technology or so it seems. Without seeing the actual rule...it seems like it could be a loophole.


As I understand it things like lip readers are ok but stepping up to recording devices, beyond what teams get already, is verboten. I might do some fishing in the great Internet sea looking for the rules, it'd be interesting to see what they say exactly.

Planetman
09-21-2007, 08:01 AM
http://resources.mygen.co.uk/contacttables/nobodycares.jpg

dirk digler
09-21-2007, 08:13 AM
Per what I read Phins bragged openly about the game afterwards that they had recorded tape of Brady's cadences.

I only saw the written rule on sideline cameras. I haven't see the one on teams using technology ( they can in some cases) Someone else using technology to sell to a team later wouldn't exactly be the team using technology or so it seems. Without seeing the actual rule...it seems like it could be a loophole.

I have posted this before but what you supposedly know about the incident is BS.

It is even not even close to what the Pats did.


http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2696227

NFL: Dolphins did no wrong vs. Patriots

By Len Pasquarelli

Without convening a congressional hearing or hiring an independent counsel to investigate the incident, the NFL has ruled that the Miami Dolphins violated no league rules in the Tapegate affair associated with the team's 21-0 victory over the New England Patriots last Sunday.

Teams are always trying to steal signs and signals off other teams. That's just football.

The incident spawned considerable attention on Tuesday after some Dolphins players suggested to the Palm Beach (Fla.) Post that the team "purchased" tapes of the New England offense that provided audio of quarterback Tom Brady making audible and line-blocking calls.

Those players strongly hinted that the tapes were critical in preparing for the game and provided the Dolphins inside information about New England's offensive audible system.

"I've never seen [Brady] so flustered," middle linebacker Zach Thomas said.

The league's response? Pretty much a stifled yawn, since there is no rule prohibiting such film study.

"Reaction around the league office was, 'That's football,' " AFC spokesman Steve Alic said.

Patriots coach Bill Belichick, speaking Wednesday at his news conference, doubted that Miami gained an advantage.

Deberg_1990
09-21-2007, 08:16 AM
I'm just wondering how long a cop would keep his job if he was called to testify about a robbery and when they asked him about fingerprints at the scene he said "Oh, I collected, reviewed, and then destroyed all the evidence."

Your talking about comparing a criminal investigation to sports. There is no comparison.

Planetman
09-21-2007, 08:16 AM
I have posted this before but what you supposedly know about the incident is BS.

It is even not even close to what the Pats did.
Unles you're a Pats fan. Then you'll hit the boards, crying foul and how the NFL turned a blind eye toward the way Miami obviously cheats. :rolleyes:

Amnorix
09-21-2007, 08:18 AM
Destroying evidence sounds like a Watergate-esque cover up to a lot of people. I think that's part of people's feelings about the evidence being destroyed. The point that gets missed is that you're very right, the punishment was rather large considering past punishments and by destroying tapes and such any "illegal" intel gathered was removed. I'm sure there was also a "do this again and your ****ed" warning. Short of concrete proof that games were won because of the cheating I'm not sure what more could have been done. I would have liked to see a suspension but more because that would seem to be in line with the player discipline than anything else.

I agree.

What point were there be to saving the tapes? This is more like catching a coke dealer. You punish him, then destroy the coke. What else are you supposed to do with it?

Planetman
09-21-2007, 08:20 AM
I agree.

What point were there be to saving the tapes? This is more like catching a coke dealer. You punish him, then destroy the coke. What else are you supposed to do with it?
http://www.bigdumbchimp.com/images/chimpcoke.jpg

:p

Amnorix
09-21-2007, 08:20 AM
Unles you're a Pats fan. Then you'll hit the boards, crying foul and how the NFL turned a blind eye toward the way Miami obviously cheats. :rolleyes:

From what I've read, Miami broke no rules. They got the audio off TV tapes, or somesuch, not by wiring defensive linemen. The latter would be verboten. The former is not.

irishjayhawk
09-21-2007, 08:21 AM
Why?

The NFL made sure the Pats could get any future benefit from their past crimes, which were punished by a penalty WORSE than ANY ever received by any NFL team in the entire HISTORY of football.

What's the problem?

And that's where I disagree.

Personally, I think they penalized the franchise itself enough, but Belichek should have been suspended for at least some number of games. $500K when he gets contracts in the multi-millions is like a slap on the wrist.

Speaking of slaps on the wrists, a first round pick? They've got two first round picks. Take both, and maybe you're actually making a point. Take one and you've done nothing.



As for why the NFL would do it? I have no idea, but it sounds pretty stupid.

HemiEd
09-21-2007, 08:23 AM
http://resources.mygen.co.uk/contacttables/nobodycares.jpg

:thumb:

boogblaster
09-21-2007, 08:25 AM
Don't really care bout the filming of signals...but do care about the way they get by with late hits..pick plays..holding..cheap cut blockin..etc..the list just doesn't end .....

Amnorix
09-21-2007, 08:50 AM
And that's where I disagree.

Personally, I think they penalized the franchise itself enough, but Belichek should have been suspended for at least some number of games. $500K when he gets contracts in the multi-millions is like a slap on the wrist.

Speaking of slaps on the wrists, a first round pick? They've got two first round picks. Take both, and maybe you're actually making a point. Take one and you've done nothing.

As for why the NFL would do it? I have no idea, but it sounds pretty stupid.

Several comments:

1. $500,000 is the MAXIMUM the NFL is allowed to penalize a coach. So you want more than the maximum? Not possible.

2. Taking a first round pick is a slap on the wrist? Are you out of your frickin' mind? This isn't some scrum team we're talking about here -- the Patriots ALWAYS hit on their first round picks in the Belichick era. They are ALL starters for us. Richard Seymour, Daniel Graham, Ben Watson, Logan Mankins, Vince Wilfork and Ty Warren. You've just cost us a CHEAP starter for 4 years (consider that he probably wouldn't start his first year as he learns).

3. You're also ignoring that the Patriots drafted OUT of last year's draft (which sucked, in the obvious opinion of the Patriots) and INTO this year's draft (which obviously doesn't suck, in their opinion so far as we can tell). So we've lost a first rounder in a GOOD draft. We gave up a first round pick LAST year to get the Niner's pick, so we'd have 2 this year. Now we just have one.

4. Typically, one doesn't scale justice to the success or wealth of the person who committed the crime. Just because we have two first orund picks shouldn't mean we lose them both, unless they would've whacked two first round picks (over 2 years) to another team if they had screwed up.

You're not viewing this as a dispassionate arbiter of justice -- you're viewing this as a chance to knock a dynasty off its pedestal. I understand that, but that isn't how the NFL should view it.

So tell me -- do you think the CHIEFS (if caught doing this) should lose TWO first round picks and get whacked the fines?

Amnorix
09-21-2007, 08:51 AM
Don't really care bout the filming of signals...but do care about the way they get by with late hits..pick plays..holding..cheap cut blockin..etc..the list just doesn't end .....

"they" meaning the Patriots?

All teams do this, to greater or lesser degree, and it sucks.

And where has the holding penalty gone anyway? NOBODY seems to get it called on them anymore, unless it's over the top blatant.

Saulbadguy
09-21-2007, 08:57 AM
The NFL did all it could do to punish the Patriots, IMO. They do not want to damage their product, so they want to keep this quiet and not go on and on about it.

The average football fan will forget about this come playoff time, and I bet you the media and announcers will conveniently forget about it too.

Amnorix
09-21-2007, 09:05 AM
The NFL did all it could do to punish the Patriots, IMO. They do not want to damage their product, so they want to keep this quiet and not go on and on about it.

The average football fan will forget about this come playoff time, and I bet you the media and announcers will conveniently forget about it too.

Likely so. Not jsut an NFL thing, but an America thing -- we have short term memories, and next week it will be back to Britney Spears or some other damn thing.

There WILL be discussiona bout it at draft-time however.

"drafting here is team X, but it would've beent he Patriots on the clock if the NFL hadn't taken away their first round pick due to camera-gate" etc.

BucEyedPea
09-21-2007, 09:28 AM
I have posted this before but what you supposedly know about the incident is BS.

It is even not even close to what the Pats did.
You should mind your own BS first. I said in a later post that it seemed like a legal loophole too. 'Course you skip that part. I also said Pats never whined about it too because they didn't excute.You skipped that part also. And once again you have no clear cut evidence that what the Pat's did was any significantly gained advantage without seeing all the evidence not when others push the envelope in their own ways to measure it against.

'Hamas' Jenkins
09-21-2007, 10:10 AM
Your talking about comparing a criminal investigation to sports. There is no comparison.

I'm making an analogy that's based on people's perception.

I just find it somewhat interesting that the NFL would move so quickly to destroy all of these tapes when last week there was said to be an avalanche of evidence of past discretions.

To me, it seems like Goodell punished the one offense harshly, but rather than continuing the investigaiton, decided to protect the league's premier franchise and created a ruse of justice.

Amnorix
09-21-2007, 11:26 AM
I just find it somewhat interesting that the NFL would move so quickly to destroy all of these tapes when last week there was said to be an avalanche of evidence of past discretions.

I read damn near everything on it, and aside from a bunch of "whispers" from "unnamed sources", there didn't seem to be much out there. Hardly an "avalanche of evidence" as you (mis)characterize it.

To me, it seems like Goodell punished the one offense harshly, but rather than continuing the investigaiton, decided to protect the league's premier franchise and created a ruse of justice.
'

Seriously, you (and I) have no idea what he punsihed. The league didn't say they punsihed them JUST for filming the Jets. The Pats probably admitted that they had been filming teams, based on BB's "misinterpretation" of the rule, and that was the fine/penalty was for. But dont' act like you KNOW what they were penalized for, but honestly, we don't.