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View Full Version : Is Herm's "ball control", "protect the defense" coaching philosphy actually RIGHT?!


jAZ
09-22-2007, 10:06 PM
I'm a Univ. of Arizona alum and over the last 2 years with Mike Stoops as our head coach, we had quickly developed one of the best defenses in the Pac-10 and last year, in the country. Our offense sucked last year, and in the off-season, we brought in Sonny Dykes, who had been the co-OC for Mike Leach's high scoring Texas Tech teams.

So far this year after only 4 games in this crazy system, we are scoring 11 more points per game. We are just getting started with it, and I guess it gets better with age.

On defense, like I said, Stoops had installed one of the best defenses in the country by the end of last season. We came into this season with a great D who returned 10 starters from last year. All we need to do is score more than 16 points a game, and we are golden, right?

Wrong.

We went from scoring 16 points per game to 27 points per game... but this year, our vaunted, experienced, rock-solid defense is now giving up 30 points per game against BYU (loss), NAU (win), New Mexico (loss), Cal (loss).

At 1-3 (when fans were expecting to be at wosrt 2-2, but likely 3-1), and with our cornerstone defense giving up 30 points per game... we looked to be completely f*cked.

So in my sulking, I am trying to figure out how such a proven, experienced, talented defense can turn to sh*t overnight.

The only thing that I can think of is the issue that Herm uses to justify a low risk, ball control offense in KC. That a high-flying offense puts the defense on the field for a lot more plays in a game, wearing them out and putting them in a position to play far worse than they might otherwise.

I'm confused, and hate wondering if Herm is right.

Count Zarth
09-22-2007, 10:11 PM
Who did Az lose to the draft/graduate?

stumppy
09-22-2007, 10:23 PM
The only thing that I can think of is the issue that Herm uses to justify a low risk, ball control offense in KC. That a high-flying offense puts the defense on the field for a lot more plays in a game, wearing them out and putting them in a position to play far worse than they might otherwise.

I'm confused, and hate wondering if Herm is right.




That kind of team has certainly dominated the NFL these last several years hasn't it ?




NO IT HASN'T !

Hydrae
09-22-2007, 10:27 PM
So it wasn't GRob or the crappy players, it was the offense that caused all the problems we had on defense?

jAZ
09-22-2007, 10:34 PM
Who did Az lose to the draft/graduate?
We have 8 returning seniors including 4 of the 5 best players of last year's team. The 5th of those was a senior safety last year, Darrell Brooks. He was not drafted in the NFL and is not on a roster this year.

jAZ
09-22-2007, 10:36 PM
So it wasn't GRob or the crappy players, it was the offense that caused all the problems we had on defense?
Well, that's at least a key part of Herm's logic.

I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around the fact that our defense that is getting OWNED (giving up 30 points per game) after bringing in a high-powered offensive system and while returning nearly all of the talent from last season.

'Hamas' Jenkins
09-22-2007, 10:40 PM
Your defense is getting owned because it is playing poorly.

What is your TOP like? TO differential? Run/Pass ratio?

There are a lot of things to consider.

Hydrae
09-22-2007, 10:40 PM
Does that work the other way around? Our offense died nearly as fast.

el borracho
09-22-2007, 10:44 PM
but this year, our vaunted, experienced, rock-solid defense is now giving up 30 points per game against BYU (loss), NAU (win), New Mexico (loss), Cal (loss).
Go Lobos!

chiefbowe82
09-22-2007, 10:45 PM
herms way is the only way

the Talking Can
09-22-2007, 10:49 PM
that fact that your defense and team sucks means only that your team and defense sucks...

The Pats prove Herm is wrong
The Colts prove Herm is wrong
The Seahawks Superbowl team proves Herm is wrong
The Eagles' Superbowl team proves Herm is wrong
The Packer's Championship proves Herm is wrong
The Cowboy's Championship teams prove Herm wrong
The 49ers Championship proves Herm is wrong


Marty Shitenhimer's failure proves Herm is wrong

chiefbowe82
09-22-2007, 10:55 PM
last years bears proves he was wrong :rolleyes:

el borracho
09-22-2007, 10:55 PM
By the way, you can maybe get to the Superbowl once with a dominating defense (Baltimore, Tampa, Chicago) but you need an elite QB to build a dynasty.

Psyko Tek
09-22-2007, 11:26 PM
if you got an offense putting up arena league numbers quick
that means all your defense has to do is cover the pass and rush the passer
'cause only Herm will run and go for 3 when down br two TDs

doomy3
09-22-2007, 11:30 PM
that fact that your defense and team sucks means only that your team and defense sucks...

The Pats prove Herm is wrong
The Colts prove Herm is wrong
The Seahawks Superbowl team proves Herm is wrong
The Eagles' Superbowl team proves Herm is wrong
The Packer's Championship proves Herm is wrong
The Cowboy's Championship teams prove Herm wrong
The 49ers Championship proves Herm is wrong


Marty Shitenhimer's failure proves Herm is wrong

The Steelers Superbowl team proves Herm is right
The Ravens Superbowl team proves Herm is right
The Bucs Superbowl team proves Herm is right

Zouk
09-23-2007, 12:06 AM
The Steelers Superbowl team proves Herm is right
The Ravens Superbowl team proves Herm is right
The Bucs Superbowl team proves Herm is right

So basically all these lists show that if you have a great QB you can win by throwing the ball a lot and being super-aggresive on offense.

If you don't, and 80%+ of all NFL teams don't, your only chance is to lean on the running game, defense, and special teams, and play a physical field position game.

Buehler445
09-23-2007, 12:06 AM
The Steelers Superbowl team proves Herm is right
The Ravens Superbowl team proves Herm is right
The Bucs Superbowl team proves Herm is right

I have to disagree with you on the Steelers. While they had a healthy dose of ass kicking running, Big Ben also threw the ball downfield to good receivers, and they got big plays off of it. Heck one of their TDs in the Super Bowl (IIRC) was thrown by a receiver.

Cowher finally opened up the offense a bit and GOSH! Look what happened.

Bob Dole
09-23-2007, 12:26 AM
Well, that's at least a key part of Herm's logic.

I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around the fact that our defense that is getting OWNED (giving up 30 points per game) after bringing in a high-powered offensive system and while returning nearly all of the talent from last season.

The opposing teams had an entire offseason to look at the tape of every single play?

Dylan
09-23-2007, 01:42 AM
The defensive system and player matchups dictate how the game is played. The QB will throw more passes long or short depending on the type of coverage and matchup he sees. Good coaches will disguise their defensive plays at the point of attack. However, it just doesn't work with a one-dimensional team.

Football strategy is built on the changing evolution of defensive and offensive schemes. It's always based on the tendencies of the day. J/M/O

Good Luck tomorrow!

Silock
09-23-2007, 03:11 AM
I have to disagree with you on the Steelers. While they had a healthy dose of ass kicking running, Big Ben also threw the ball downfield to good receivers, and they got big plays off of it. Heck one of their TDs in the Super Bowl (IIRC) was thrown by a receiver.

Cowher finally opened up the offense a bit and GOSH! Look what happened.

They ran the ball more than anyone else in the league that year. By a large margin.

Short Leash Hootie
09-23-2007, 03:26 AM
By the way, you can maybe get to the Superbowl once with a dominating defense (Baltimore, Tampa, Chicago) but you need an elite QB to build a dynasty.
BRODIE 'THIRD ROUND PICK' CROYLE!!

MadMax
09-23-2007, 03:42 AM
BRODIE 'THIRD ROUND PICK' CROYLE!!

Nah, Demon "Downtown" Huard...:)

the Talking Can
09-23-2007, 05:22 AM
The Steelers Superbowl team proves Herm is right
The Ravens Superbowl team proves Herm is right
The Bucs Superbowl team proves Herm is right

The Steelers didn't win until they abandoned Herm-ball.

The Ravens were an exception to everything, they had one of the all-time great defenses. We dont have anything even remotely similiar.

The majority of teams that make it to the Superbowl do it with dynamic, aggressive offenses. The teams that make it multiple times all had dynamic, aggressive offenses.

Herm's "philosophy" is stupid and outdated.


Belicheck and Dungy know more about defense than Herm, and both of them let their OC's run aggressive offenses.

Otter
09-23-2007, 05:38 AM
BRODIE 'THIRD ROUND PICK' CROYLE!!

Funny part about that Hootie - he's the highest drafted QB to play for the Chiefs in over a century.

Maybe ever, I don't have the motivation to look

Dumbass

htismaqe
09-23-2007, 06:01 AM
The Steelers Superbowl team proves Herm is right
The Ravens Superbowl team proves Herm is right
The Bucs Superbowl team proves Herm is right

None of those teams played offense the way Herm does.

Zouk
09-23-2007, 07:33 AM
None of those teams played offense the way Herm does.

It what ways did the Bucs and Ravens play different?

Hog Farmer
09-23-2007, 07:42 AM
If a defense is truly great they will be taking the ball away on defense, thus putting their offense back on the field and wearing their own offense down. If their own offense is tired that gives the defense more rest so that they may go back out energized taking the ball away again thus giving the ball back to the offense which in turn makes the offense more tired and less likely to be able to move the ball giving the defense more time to rest which in turn makes them capable of taking the ball away more quickly which will make the offense too tired to score any points which means the game should come down to a last minute field goal which will probably be missed because the kicker sucks which will in turn cause overtime and the defense will end up having to win the game. Got it!

Short Leash Hootie
09-23-2007, 07:48 AM
Funny part about that Hootie - he's the highest drafted QB to play for the Chiefs in over a century.

Maybe ever, I don't have the motivation to look

Dumbass
Jesus...

who woulda guessed Otter was going to quote one of my posts?!?!??!?!!?

htismaqe
09-23-2007, 08:04 AM
It what ways did the Bucs and Ravens play different?

The Bucs played Gruden's offense. They 567 pass attempts.

The Ravens actually USED playaction and their TE. They didn't just talk about it.

Furthermore, both of those defenses were INFINITELY better than the one we have now.

Short Leash Hootie
09-23-2007, 08:06 AM
The Bucs played Gruden's offense. They 567 pass attempts.

The Ravens actually USED playaction and their TE. They didn't just talk about it.

Furthermore, both of those defenses were INFINITELY better than the one we have now.
THEEEEEEEEEEE MAQ
knows EVERYTHING

htismaqe
09-23-2007, 08:10 AM
THEEEEEEEEEEE MAQ
knows EVERYTHING

Why don't you try refuting my points instead of acting like a child?

:hmmm:

Zouk
09-23-2007, 08:17 AM
The Bucs played Gruden's offense. They 567 pass attempts.

The Ravens actually USED playaction and their TE. They didn't just talk about it.

Furthermore, both of those defenses were INFINITELY better than the one we have now.

I know their defense were better. The Chiefs are not a Super Bowl caliber team in 2007. They are rebuilding the roster and schemes to become like those 2 teams. They need at least 3 offseasons to do that, and we've only had 2 so far. Check out how long it took Dungy to build the Colts D to what it is now. The Ravens and Bucs defenses that carried Billick and Gruden were built over 3-5 drafts and free agency periods. I expect the team to be much better next year.

But in terms of offensive philosophy Gruden is not far from Herm. Gruden's mentor is Paul Hackett, who first hired Gruden in Pittsburgh (the college). Hackett is currently the QB coach in Tampa. Gruden does not spread you out and throw it. Although he does throw a lot of short stuff, it's mostly out of big formations. On the 2002 Super Bowl team his leading receivers were:

Keyshawn 1088 yards, 14.3 yards per catch
McCardell 670 yards, 11.0 yards per catch
Pittman 477 yards, 8.1 yards per catch
Jurevicius 423 yards, 11.4 yards per catch

http://www.jt-sw.com/football/pro/stats.nsf/Annual/2002-tb

Last year the Chiefs leading receivers were:

Gonzalez 900 yards, 12.3 yards per catch
Kennison 860 yars, 16.2 yards per catch
Parker 561 yards, 13.7 yards per catch
LJ 410 yards, 10 yards per catch

http://www.jt-sw.com/football/pro/stats.nsf/Annual/2006-kc


It's all pretty similar actually.

htismaqe
09-23-2007, 08:50 AM
I know their defense were better. The Chiefs are not a Super Bowl caliber team in 2007. They are rebuilding the roster and schemes to become like those 2 teams. They need at least 3 offseasons to do that, and we've only had 2 so far. Check out how long it took Dungy to build the Colts D to what it is now. The Ravens and Bucs defenses that carried Billick and Gruden were built over 3-5 drafts and free agency periods. I expect the team to be much better next year.

But in terms of offensive philosophy Gruden is not far from Herm. Gruden's mentor is Paul Hackett, who first hired Gruden in Pittsburgh (the college). Hackett is currently the QB coach in Tampa. Gruden does not spread you out and throw it. Although he does throw a lot of short stuff, it's mostly out of big formations. On the 2002 Super Bowl team his leading receivers were:

Keyshawn 1088 yards, 14.3 yards per catch
McCardell 670 yards, 11.0 yards per catch
Pittman 477 yards, 8.1 yards per catch
Jurevicius 423 yards, 11.4 yards per catch

http://www.jt-sw.com/football/pro/stats.nsf/Annual/2002-tb

Last year the Chiefs leading receivers were:

Gonzalez 900 yards, 12.3 yards per catch
Kennison 860 yars, 16.2 yards per catch
Parker 561 yards, 13.7 yards per catch
LJ 410 yards, 10 yards per catch

http://www.jt-sw.com/football/pro/stats.nsf/Annual/2006-kc


It's all pretty similar actually.

Fair enough. I was wrong, you've convinced me.

Mr. Laz
09-23-2007, 10:41 AM
college football isn't the NFL