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Chiefs Pantalones
06-03-2001, 08:28 PM
Have you switched teams on us? Are you a Redskins (Chief castaways) fan now? It sounds like it. Just curious, you seem to talk alot about Marty and the Redskins.

CG

just wondering:D

KCJohnny
06-03-2001, 08:39 PM
Listen, Son....

I was following the Chiefs before you were born.
And I will always root for one team and one team only, the Kansas City Chiefs. And if you possesed a tenth of the loyalty to this storied franchise that I do, you too would be indignant over the wholesale captitulation to another team's coaches, players, coordinators and playbook.
I do admire Marty Schottenheimer and wish him and Jimmy Raye all the success in the world. When the Chiefs play the Skins, I am 100% on the side of the Chiefs.
By your logic (in the thread topic) you are a Rams fan. How's that feel?
KCJ
Earned his Chiefs credentials in the trenches

Chiefs Pantalones
06-03-2001, 08:42 PM
So are you a Redskins fan?

CG

hehehe:p


ATTENTION PROCTOR...CHANGE IS GOOD...OUT WITH THE OLD, IN WITH THE NEW!!!

"1, 2, 3, 4, 5...5 wide receivers?"

keg in kc
06-03-2001, 08:43 PM
Were you this indignant in 1989 when the team turned into the Kansas City Browns? Or was that "wholesale captitulation to another team's coaches, players, coordinators and playbook" okay in your book?

Chiefs Pantalones
06-03-2001, 08:49 PM
John,

If I was you, I wouldn't like Marty too much, he never took this team to a Super Bowl, because of his unwillingness to change with the times (see: stubborn). He had potential, I'll give him that, but he didn't know how, and will not, now how to get his team (RedChiefs) to the big dance!

CG

Marty is his own worst enemy...and the Skins are about to have a let down.

Warrior5
06-03-2001, 09:48 PM
I was waiting for the Chaplain to launch "Death From Above" on Cody.
Cody, I'm sure you posted in good humor, but while many people have criticized the Chaplain for his accusations of "Ramifization", no one can question his loyalty to the Red & Gold.
Not that the Chaplain needs me to defend him, but <B>the very reason for his criticism</B> is because he's such a loyal Chief fan.

Logical
06-03-2001, 10:12 PM
Originally posted by KCJohnny
Listen, Son....

I was following the Chiefs before you were born.
And I will always root for one team and one team only, the Kansas City Chiefs. And if you possesed a tenth of the loyalty to this storied franchise that I do, you too would be indignant over the wholesale captitulation to another team's coaches, players, coordinators and playbook.
I do admire Marty Schottenheimer and wish him and Jimmy Raye all the success in the world. When the Chiefs play the Skins, I am 100% on the side of the Chiefs.
By your logic (in the thread topic) you are a Rams fan. How's that feel?
KCJ
Earned his Chiefs credentials in the trenches

John,

I have talked to you about this once before. I started following the Chiefs when you were 5 years old. I went to almost every home game from 1977 to 1989 when they were at their worst, who are you to say I possess only a tenth of your loyalty because I like and am looking forward to the direction the Chiefs are moving. I find that deplorable sportsmanship on your part. It is also way over the top for you to tell others you are 10 times the loyal fan they are.

I think you should stop casting aspersions on peoples loyalty whether we are your elders or you are their elders. Loyalty is not measure by a philosophy it is measured in support good time or bad.

Please Stand Down Soldier

morphius
06-03-2001, 10:27 PM
Logical - You sure have gotten into this apology thing lately...

Morphius
Finds things amusing for ABSOLUTLY no reason.

TEX
06-03-2001, 11:07 PM
Cody,
Make NO mistake that Johnny Boy bleeds CHIEFS RED! He's a great fan.

His weakness is he's a MARTY DESCIPLE that loves Marty and his brand of football:D

California Injun
06-03-2001, 11:14 PM
Then Johnny has only bled Red and Gold since 1989.

Prior to that, he could be seen barking with the Dogs in Cleveland.

Logical
06-03-2001, 11:15 PM
morph,

Point well taken, hopefully you will find the revision more suitable.

Good advice well stated.

Thanks,
Jim

AustinChief
06-03-2001, 11:34 PM
KCJohnny,

I've been a Chiefs fan my whole life...

I still LOVE Marty... but things change and whether it happens in 1 season or 10 it really doesn't matter. The Chiefs under Marty were different from the Chiefs before Marty. There is NO football program that stays the same over a long time span. As much as I loved Gunther... he couldn't get the job done and it was time for a change. I am extremely thankful that the change was as drastic as it appears to have been. Slow evolution gives your opponents time to know what to expect.

I have NO doubts about your loyalty to the Chiefs... but it might be time to look at some of the positives that this change will bring.

Unlike many others, I DON'T think that you are too close-minded to make the adjustment.

--Kyle

P.S. One MAJOR reason I love the Chiefs is because of the fan loyalty... and the respect for tradition... but respecting tradition doesn't have to mean hating change.

Saggysack
06-04-2001, 02:05 AM
I believe KCJohnny to be a great Chiefs fan, he might not have the same perceptions as the majority but nobody can agree on everything completely.. His ideas might seem like he is unwilling to let go of the past and move on but he is entitled his opinions.

My basic questions for proctor is

How will RBbC effect the offensive scheme overall?

Correct me if I'm wrong but a RBbC is more of a situational offense as opposed to an attacking offense like the Chiefs have set themselves up with personnel wise?

What is your MOS?

kcred
06-04-2001, 08:26 AM
As I have known KCJ, for the almost 3 years on the board, I believe, he is a true fan of the Chiefs, and always will be. Also, it was KCJ, who started this thread, it was the kid, questioning his loyalty. I believe it was this same guy, who was absolutely orgasmic over Corey Dillon last year, and in another thread here on the Planet, is asking for help, in making a decision, which may have a lifelong impact. All that being said, I, too, thought Chiefs fans would "roue" the day, they cheered Marty's departure. So far, that has proven true. Marty gave us a winning tradition, that we assumed every season, that the lack of playoff victories became the critieria, instead of making the playoffs. However, it was not just the smash mouth offense, that brought most of those victories, it was knowing our defense would rarely allow more than 14-17 points, that allowed Marty to run that type offense. Since his departure, and GC moving to head coach, we have not had that defense, nor do we have it now. Whether it was just personnel, or coaching, whatever, that part has changed, and Vermeil brings an offense to the table that does not need a defense to hold the opposing team to less than 20 to win. To me, this was a needed change, and probably more exciting to watch. Do I think this will lead to a SB, time will tell, I believe the Chiefs will be better in 02 and 03, than they will this year, as he builds his team. Do I think the Skins will be better under Marty, probably, when you are building a D, around guys like Champ Bailey and Lavar Arrington, you can afford to play Martyball, and expect results. Which brand do I prefer, think Baltimore Ravens. A lotta D, and a little O.

kcred
06-04-2001, 08:27 AM
That should be not KCJ who started the thread.

keg in kc
06-04-2001, 08:56 AM
I may have my tussles with KCJ, but I know he's a Chief fan like me...

What I don't get is why he's refusing to admit that it just wasn't working here and it was time for a change. Case in point, let's reflect on last season:

We were 8th in the league in offense. We were 9th in the league in points, scoring over 22 per game.

Nice stats...

However, despite the rankings that would seem to indicate the contrary, we simply couldn't score. For all of those points and all of those yards, we only scored 21 or more points six times the entire season. Six!!

That's horrible!!

And last year's defense was even worse, albeit more consistent than the Jekyll and Hyde offense - consistently bad, of course, but consistent. While we scored over 22 a game, we also gave up over 22 a game, only holding opponents to 17 or fewer points on 6 occasions, 4 of which we won.

So, all in all, we scored 21 points or more 6 times and we held the opposition to 17 or fewer points 6 times. That means that when you combine the two, we were, on average, successful on both sides of the ball in just over a third of our games. And that's not even touching on our special teams play, which was some of the worst I've seen in any level of football.

Not exactly a recipe for success, and, lo and behold, we finished 7-9, with the team literally getting worse as the season progressed. A change was needed and a change was made. Now, maybe it wasn't the change everyone wanted (I wanted Marvin Lewis...), but the fact is that we have a new staff here moving us in a new and exciting direction.

Why lament the past when there's so much future to think about? Respect the past, remember it fondly, even learn from it, but for goodness sake don't live in it!!!

Cormac
06-04-2001, 09:14 AM
Kyle,

Are you/were you G-Man??? Just wondering....

LMT
06-04-2001, 09:29 AM
Cody,

The new coaching staff has been a breath of fresh air as far as keeping us fans updated, and in their positive approach to this upcomming season.

Even though Schottenheimer takes a lot of heat for never "winning the big one", he had the team in position to win in miserable weather against the Colts in 95. The Field Goal kicker was the problem on that day, not the coaching.

It remains to be seen under those same type of conditions in December and January if a 4 and 5 receiver set will fare any better than smashmouth Marty style.

I am very curious to find out, but my gut instinct tells me smashmouth and tough D is better suited for outdoors in KC in the winter! We will see.

LMT (formerly known as Coogs)

keg in kc
06-04-2001, 09:29 AM
Never heard of him, cormac. I've been on this board since the beginning of February and was on the star board since last August using "keg in kc" the entire time.

ExtremeChief
06-04-2001, 09:43 AM
LMT,

I have to respectfully disagree about the Colt loss. The Chiefs came out in the first half running all over the place, and while they had red zone troubles, they controlled the line of scrimmage. In the second half, that changed. The Chiefs quit running the ball, and tried passing for some reason. This lead to many 3 and outs and an eventual loss. I agree that the field goal kicking was horrid that day, but it should have never been a factor. Had we kept smashing it down their throats, the scores would have eventually come. Plus I hate the fact that I had to sit there on the top row in below zero wind chills watching a gut-wrenching loss.

The problem I have with Marty is that his teams always seem prepared for the regular season, and seem to enjoy playing the games at that time. Once they get into the playoffs, Marty's attitude changes. He doesn't let the players have fun, gets too serious, and that attitude is reflected on his team. If the team has fun and plays well during the year, they should be allowed to do the same in the playoffs. Maybe a few years of reflection by Marty will improve how he handles himself and his team during ther post season.

Cormac
06-04-2001, 09:52 AM
Thanks. I was just wondering where he'd gone to. He owes me money. j/k :p

He used to be a regular, and had a lot of good, accurate football knowledge. I guess you could take that as a compliment ;). He was also a big Marvin Lewis supporter if I remember correctly.

LMT
06-04-2001, 09:56 AM
ExtremeChief,

Your probably right on the money on what happened vs. the Colts.
However, the major point I was trying to emphasise is it may be tough to move the ball through the air in KC in the winter. You supported that case very well!

HC_Chief
06-04-2001, 09:59 AM
In the Colts game, we started with SIX consecutive running plays. SIX!! They weren't even misdirections: just six center blasts. People were <i>booing</i>.

Jimmy Raye = worst OC in the history of this franchise... w/o question.

LMT
06-04-2001, 10:10 AM
HC,

Colts playoff game in 95??? Still thinks running the ball in December is going to be better than the pass. None the less, likes the new coaching staff.

KCTitus
06-04-2001, 10:13 AM
Extreme/Coogs: While I dont allways believe everything I hear on the radio, I happened to overhear Dan Sileo on the fox sports net that knew several ex-players who played for Marty in Cleveland and KC and they stated that when the playoffs rolled around Marty had a bad habit of re-writing the playbook just for those games. A couple of the players he talked to said that there were plays that they had never practiced in the gameplan.

Given the fact, like you said, that the team played well enough to go 13-3 in the regular season and then lay an egg against Indy, it makes sense. I think it speaks volumes the fact that it took someone with the talent of Montana to overcome this fact.

HC_Chief
06-04-2001, 10:21 AM
d'oh! I missed the '95 reference... thought you were talking about last season's game. :rolleyes:

/me needs to start paying attention :p

MrBlond
06-04-2001, 10:53 AM
My .02

Buffalo ran a no-huddle, quick strike, 3 reciever set with a smallish, multi-dimensional back with successful results. The weather in Buffalo, NY is more extreme than KC.

keg in kc
06-04-2001, 11:20 AM
LMT, last season against Carolina in December we had over 300 yards passing. It was cold and windy, albeit not quite as cold as the next week when we hosted Denver (but it was close, although no snow on the ground yet). We would have lit up the Panthers that day, but DA had a TD pass go off his helmet which was then intercepted, and Gonzo dropped two touchdown passes which were right on the money (although DA caught one of them on a deflection). The next weekend, Raye decided to switch from pass-pass-pass to run-run-run and that worked, too.

Point being, while we may not have seen a lot of big December passing games, that doesn't mean it can't be done. Remember that this new offense is actually centered around quick drops, quick reads and, dare I say, short passing, or, in other words, the so-called "extended handoff". And that doesn't prohibit us from using power running if we so wish, because we certainly have the personnel for it with T-Rich and now Layne, as well as our smaller runningbacks.

Along a totally different line, our December home games this season are against Denver and San Diego, while we're on the road to Oakland and Jacksonville. Other than that, we have the Thursday night game at the end of November, and I really don't see the weather as being a big problem at that point. Luckily, we have most of the games I would peg as "potential snow days" prior to the middle of November. Weather shouldn't affect the offensive scheme very much, if at all, and I'm sure the coaching staff will be able to deal with it if need be.

Chiefs Pantalones
06-04-2001, 06:23 PM
Kyle,

I know KCJ is a Chiefs fan too, I'm just giving him some crap. And you ask why he hasn't admitted or seen that this team needed a change?... Denial. It can be an ugly thing.:D

CG

GO CHIEFS!!!!!

Lzen
06-05-2001, 09:29 AM
Dammit Mr. Blond,
You beat me to it. I was thinking of Buffalo's K-gun offense that got them to 4 consecutive SBs despite playing in terrible weather. Kyle had some great points, too. The 1995 Colts playoff loss is a perfect example. We used that smashmouth type offense and still only managed to score 7 points. Hell, our D did a marvelous job in holding the Colts to 10. Obviously, when you can only manage 7 points out of your offense, you're gonna lose. I can guarantee that this offense will be able to score more than 7 points come playoff time.
Another thing about Marty Schottenheimer: If I remember correctly, it was Mark Collins who criticized Marty for running the team into the ground with hard practices throughout the season and they didn't have much left in the tank come playoff time.

LMT
06-05-2001, 09:49 AM
I forgot about Buffalo. I feel better about this already, as that was the only piece of this transformation that was leaving me a bit queezy. I don't know about you guys, but I just love having the coaching staff talk to the media on occasion.

MrBlond
06-05-2001, 09:50 AM
Izen,

The doom and gloomers who point the the harsh KC winters as not conducive to a high octane offense are way off base, IMO. Buffalo, Denver, and GB had great teams without a smashmouth philosiphy. They also had good to great defenses. By no means am I advocating a weak D. But, this type of offense, with the right personel, can lead to championships. In any climate.

LMT
06-05-2001, 09:54 AM
Hey, I'm not a doom and gloomer! Just had a question to weather or not you all thought a passing O would work on a day like the day we played the Colts in 95. I stand corrected!

MrBlond
06-05-2001, 11:42 AM
LMT,

No offense intended. I was not referring to you specifically. Besides, I should be the last one namecalling because I was a certified "Gunther and the Stooges" doom and gloomer myself!!