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BIG_DADDY
06-05-2001, 06:24 PM
I know I have stated this before but now the evidence is FINALLY starting to come out. There were more people involved and the government not only knew that but they knew of the bombing before it even happened. There was even a media cover up at that time just like TWA flight 800 but, of course, that will never come out. I really don't know why any of you would believe anything this government and media tells you.

DENVER (Reuters) - Lawyers for Oklahoma City bomber Timothy McVeigh charged on Tuesday that the government withheld evidence that there were other people besides McVeigh and his army friend Terry Nichols involved in the bombing conspiracy that killed 168 people.
In papers filed in advance of a Federal Court hearing on Wednesday on whether McVeigh's scheduled June 11 execution should be stayed, McVeigh's four lawyers also alleged that federal law enforcement officers were told by informants about the bombing "several days or weeks before it occurred" on April 19, 1995.

The attorneys said the government had perpetrated a fraud on the court and added: "The fraud pointed to by the evidence thus far known to counsel for Mr. McVeigh is that the government misled the court concerning the persons responsible for the Oklahoma City bombing.

"Specifically, counsel believes that the government --- at least some FBI agents -- knew ... that other people in addition to Mr. McVeigh and Mr. Nichols were responsible for the bombing."


Federal Judge Richard Matsch is to consider a request by McVeigh for a stay of execution so that his lawyers can examine 4,000 pages of evidence that was withheld by the defense.

DaWolf
06-05-2001, 06:29 PM
I don't really trust lawyers either though, to tell you the truth...

keg in kc
06-05-2001, 06:31 PM
Yep, and notice how Ashcroft is executing him as quickly as possible so the entire thing can be brushed under the rug and forgotten.

Yet another travesty that will eventually be conveniently misconstrued or completely left out of the annals of twentieth century history. They used to say "history is written by the victors," and sometimes I can't help but wonder who actually is doing the writing ...

Baby Lee
06-05-2001, 08:27 PM
Ashcroft is executing him as quickly as possible

1. Ashcroft is neither executing him [the job of some prison guard] or ordering him executed [jury's job].

2. In any case, Ashcroft is the one who ordered the moratorium McVeigh presently enjoys. iF he was "executing him as quickly as possible," McVeigh would already be dead.

Raiderhader
06-05-2001, 08:38 PM
Agreed with JC on the Ashcroft thing.

Now, we aren't supposed to believe the government or the media, but we should Timothy McVeigh? Now don't get me wrong, you all know my distrust of the government, and the biased media, but I think in all fairness to those two factions, you have to be eaqually skeptical of TM.

On the subject of conspiracy theories, I do believe there is a reason for believeing in a some of them (I said some, not that really whacked out stuff that some of those nut cases get into), I just am not sure which ones to believe. Like TWA thing, I never payed all that much attention to it, so I can't offer an informed opinion on it, but it does seem a little strange that our government would shoot down a plane with it's own civilians on it. Now if it was an accident and covered up, that would be easier to accept. As for McVeigh, it wouldn't surprise me in the least if thetre were more people involved, but I do find it strange that he would say there wern't before, but now say that there were. Yet another mystery left behind by Der Schlick Meister and Reno.

keg in kc
06-05-2001, 09:02 PM
Actually, you are absolutely incorrect, JC. Ashcroft delayed the execution as a token gesture when the FBI papers appeared. Then shortly before memorial day he made a statement that essentially said a couple of weeks was more than enough time to go through thousands of pages of documents and that the execution would be carried out, without further delay, on June 10th.

Hader, you misunderstand what's we're saying (or at least what I'm saying). I'm not attributing my belief in a conspiracy in anything McVeigh has said. My beliefs stem from reading, hearing and seeing dozens of interviews, reports and evidence from dozens of witnesses, experts and analysts, nearly all of which is contrary to McVeigh's own statements. The reason I don't want McVeigh to be executed as quickly as possible is not because I think he's a scapegoat or a victim, it's because the investigation will end, for all intents and purposes, with his execution. When he dies, there will be complete closure in the media and with the government and the true story, whatever that may be, will never be known. When McVeigh dies, this literally fades away from the public consciousness.

Baby Lee
06-05-2001, 09:17 PM
QUESTIONS

1. If Ashcroft had not instituted the "token" delay, where would McVeigh be today?

2. Is it possible that Aschroft could have refused to institute the delay?

And as I'm "absolutely incorrect;"

3. When did Ashcroft personally sentence McVeigh to death and by what means will he personally effect that death?

Answering those questions, only two conclusions can arise. Either Ashcroft doesn't have ultimate power over life and death, or he does have that power and chose not to exercise it at the earliest possible juncture.

How come every time someone you [not you specifically Keg] don't like does something with which you can't disagree, it' a token gesture/ But is you like that person, its a principled stance?

Rausch
06-06-2001, 12:08 AM
In my opinion Timmy Boy doesn't need to live. Kill him as slowly and PAINFULLY as possible, then find the other brainless clods who assisted him.


He needs to die. Again, slowly and as painfully as our rudimentary penal system can allow...

Tomahawk 11
06-06-2001, 12:18 AM
I gotta admit, I am torn on this one. Brad, I agree he should die and that since he admitted that he was the main man there is no point in stalling. On the other hand, I see the point of keeping him alive until everyone involved is brought to justice. I don't know that keeping him alive would do anything to help find the others involved.

AHHH! What the hell... Execute him!! We can figure the rest out without him. It seems he is just attempting to run us in circles.

Rausch
06-06-2001, 12:24 AM
Hey, if we can put a man on the moon, John Madden in the booth, unmanned probes to jupiter, clone a cow, cure smallpox, watch Oprah and hold down lunch, win the cold war, and see Trent Dilfer win a super bowl....



Man, we don't NEED Timmy to find his twisted pals...That's just my opinion, but give him the old Dark ages boat treatment and telivise it....

That'll learn ya'!

:D

California Injun
06-06-2001, 12:31 AM
I still say we should just torture the bastard.

Execution is too convenient....

Rausch
06-06-2001, 12:34 AM
Good call....:)


But I take it you've never heard of the boat treatment?

BIG_DADDY
06-06-2001, 10:09 AM
Is this going the wrong direction or what. Nobody is contending whether TV should be killed or not. We all know he is going to die it's just a matter of when. What are you guys thinking? He is living high on the hog in there? A little hookers and blow? Maybe some cracked crab and coconut shrimp? If you were him wouldn't you WANT to die? This is my point. There is absolutely NO outrage that the government knew about the bombing before hand. All you guys can talk about is wanting to torture the guy. I sure hope this is not indicitive of how our entire country is looking at this, but I am sure that it is. The best thing that could happen would have this thing go back to court with the 4000+ pages of witheld information exposing the corruption in our FBI. It's not like he is going to get off. I told you before that they interviewed the guy who rented the truck to them and he said that there was a 3rd guy who running everything and it wasn't TV or TN. The FBI did a sketch of all 3 suspects and then only released 2 to the media. Doesn't this even make you a little suspicious? Bottom line, this bombing needs as much light shown on it as possible. Keeping TV alive a bit longer will allow that to happen.

BIG DADDY

Feeling like Lone wolf. TV is dead. The government is what you need to worry about.

keg in kc
06-06-2001, 10:43 AM
You're still missing the point, so to speak.

As soon as McVeigh is dead, it's over. Done. End of story. We can't figure out the rest after he's dead because nobody that can do anything will bother to look. It's the same situation as in the 60s, when Oswald was shot by Ruby. End of story. People may still be talking about it, but officially it was, is, and will always be, a lone gunman and anyone who even thinks otherwise is either a conspiracy theorist or a nut. Nobody will ever know the truth, even if that truth is that it was Oswald acting alone. The same is true for OKC. When the switch is pulled on Monday there will be many questions left unanswered:

Were there two bomb blasts, as both eyewitness reports and earthquake detection equipment indicates?

Why did the media's story change, within 48 hours, from two bombs to a single bomb?

Why were all of the ATF/BTF agents out of the office that day? Are the memos warning them (as well as a federal judge in a nearby building, U.S. District Judge Wayne Alley) of the an impending terrorist attack on April 19, 1995 real or fabricated?

Were there bomb removal teams on the scene minutes after the bombing removing material from the lower level of the building, as reported by a number of eyewitnesses?

Would the truck bomb McVeigh reportedly used damage the building in the manner in which it was destroyed (some demolitions experts, including a former Army general involved with demolitions his entire career, say no, that the building was brought down in an orderly fashion using charges placed on the interior)?

Why were the ruins demolished two weeks early when outside demolitions experts began asking for access to the remains of the building (request denied, obviously...)?

Are the (videotaped) local news stories showing additional bombs around the building, and containing statements by federal officials that confirm that, real or fabricated?


That's just a few of the literally dozens of questions that will be conveniently forgotten as soon as McVeigh is dead. Sure, a few people will still try to find out what happened, but it won't really matter. They're just nuts and conspiracy theorists anyway.

McVeigh did it alone, officially, and his execution is closure.


JC, this isn't a political thing, because I believe the actions here involve both parties and, now, two presidential administrations. Reno was as guilty of chicanery on this case (moreso, infact) as Ashcroft is. The stay of execution (well, not a stay, but you know what I mean) he granted was for public image only, because some of the public would have had a fit if "due process" was ignored altogether. There is going to be no judicial review of the 4,000 "lost" documents "found" by the FBI, and I say again that the 26 day delay in execution is nothing but a token gesture. Ashcroft has stated, on more than once occasion, clearly and in his own words, that McVeigh is to be killed a.s.a.p.

I'm a moderate, in fact, by the way, so although I may do some conservative bashing from time-to-time that's not my sole M.O. I think there's a lot being covered-up here, by both parties, and, again, two separate presidential administrations.

Is McVeigh guilty? Definitely!

But I don't believe he's the only culprit.

But I'll never know, either, once the execution is over, because the story ends there.

Like everything else, though, there's not a whole lot I can do about it...

BIG_DADDY
06-06-2001, 12:03 PM
Outstanding post Keg. Bravo.

gh4chiefs
06-06-2001, 12:15 PM
These are good posts, sure gives one a lot to think about. I guess I'll add my $0.02 to say I've always been bothered by the fact that TM was identified so quickly as the culprit. I understand he admits it and I'm not trying to claim he's innocent, but I have to wonder how did they know it was him so quickly? What did the FBI know and more importantly WHEN did they know it? Could these lives been saved?

BIG_DADDY
06-06-2001, 12:37 PM
There you go. I hope your happy. TM will be dead and everyone else is off the hook. The funny thing is nobody is even concerned about the due process of law here at all. You can't convict somebody while withholding evidence. Oh well.

mlyonsd
06-06-2001, 12:46 PM
BD,

As much as I want TM to fry I think doing so this quickly after the FBI blunder is a mistake.

I am for capital punishment but only in the event of a fair trial and physical evidence.

IMO if the execution proceeds the CP opponents will have a little more ammunition. My fear is eventually CP will be eliminated.

I say letting it wait until everything is totally investigated makes sense even though he has admitted to it. Once all the rocks have been turned over then stick the needle to him.

BigMeatballDave
06-06-2001, 01:05 PM
Anyone that believes TM acted alone would also believe Lee Harvey Oswald was the lone gunman.