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Mile High Mania
06-06-2001, 07:46 AM
Ok, now one of you... Titus, I think will say that I'm just throwing out some underhanded smack. That's not the case.

Check out this ranking from a guy at CBS...
http://cbs.sportsline.com/b/page/pressbox/0,1328,3969965,00.html

Now, I agree with him (of course) about Shannahan, but I found it very warming to see 4 AFC West Head Coaches listed in the Top 8 of the NFL. Shannahan #1, Holmgren #2, Gruden #3 and Vermeil #8.

The offseason has been very interesting for our division and despite what you think of Rice, he will be a threat even at the age of 39.

Now, if Denver had signed him then JQ would be saying that we just wasted money on a 4 year contract that is really only a 1 or 2 year deal and that Rice may not make it through the year b/c of his age and past injuries. However, now I'm sure that Oakland will have the most potent WR corp in his eyes. I'd spin it that way as well, but I still like Griese/Ed/Rod/Kennison over Gannon/Brown/Rice/Jett (or Rison).

Speaking of Oakland...
Gannon/Brown/Rice/Jett and/or Rison/Wheatley/Garner

That's a pretty damn good team right there, the TE escapes me right now, but if they have that group above they should be pretty powerful. But, if Gannon goes down, it's all over. Hoying? Puh-leeze!!

If Griese goes down, then we're looking at Steve or Gus, and if Steve is healthy ... look out, brutha! He'll definitely have the players he needs to be successful!

Anyway... I thought the ranking was pretty interesting.

htismaqe
06-06-2001, 08:06 AM
I'm not sure about that ranking...I mean, what exactly has Gruden done to be ranked with Shanny and Holmgren?

BTW, the TE for the Raiders is Roland Williams - they signed him from the Rams...

Mile High Mania
06-06-2001, 08:24 AM
Yeah, I think Gruden might have been ranked a bit high, but I would definitely put him in the top 7 or 8.

KCJohnny
06-06-2001, 08:42 AM
Martz ahead of Mora????
Gruden ahead of Marty and Cowher???
Bullhockey.
Best coaches (not in order):
Shanny, Green, Cowher, Marty, Mora, Reeves, Vermiel.
OVER RATED:
Holmy, Gruden, Martz, Holmy, Gruden.
Just below the top tier:
Dungy, Coughlin, Fassel, Wannestadt, Fisher.

Best-with the-least award: Bill Cowher. Gets clobbered every winter/spring with FA and still claws his way to the top.

Worst with the most award: Holmy. C'mon. This guys is shooting to break .500 after he was supposed to make the Seahags the new 9ers.

Snake-bitten:
Marty
Mora
Green

Up and coming:
Billick, Gruden, Andy Reid

Time to go:
Reeves, Vermiel.

Biggest disappointments:
Siefert, Holmy, Riley.

KCJ
Expert on nothing

:confused:

milkman
06-06-2001, 08:49 AM
John,
Exactly how many times must a coach fail in the playoffs before you wake up to the fact that the reason these coaches are snake-bitten is because they just don't get it?:confused:

KCJohnny
06-06-2001, 09:03 AM
You may have a point with Mora, but not with Green and Schottenheimer. These guys were a couple of bad bounces/FG attempts from advancing to the Big Dance.
You have your take, I have mine. Personally, I'd put Mora in that category, too. He had several very fine Saints teams in the 90s that broke hearts in the post season.

What do you expect from me? I'm a Utah Jazz fan and have been watching Jerry Sloan gugh this same nightnmare for most of my adult life!

KCJ:(

milkman
06-06-2001, 09:19 AM
Green is exactly has been exactly the type of coach you are moaning about in regards to VD. An offensive minded coach that has yet to address his team's defensive definciancies in his years as Viking HC.
If you think so highly of him, then you should be ecstatic with VD, otherwise you are just setting a double standard.
Green hasn't made it to the SB because that team can't stop anybody from scoring.
Marty and Mora are just the exact opposite. They get frightened of mistakes on offense, use a passive gameplan in the playoffs, and can't get to the SB because they play not to lose.

As I said about Marty and Mora on another thread a couple of weeks ago, these guys are the new M and Ms.
They just melt in the playoffs.

Logical
06-06-2001, 09:20 AM
:D HeHeHe

Now I finally get it, KCJ is catholic and this is not his original life but his personal purgatory.

Doomed to love coaches and their teams that can get close but never win the big dance.

So Chiefs get Vermiel and he realizes that if they win the big dance with him his stay iin purgatory will get extended.

Would make a great twilight zone epsiode ;)

KCTitus
06-06-2001, 09:21 AM
MHM: I see nothing underhanded about your post. Besides, Im really hurting for some good smack/cut paste stuff so it made for a good read.

With Gibbs gone as OL coach/Asst head coach and the interior OL aging, it will be interesting if the plug-n-play RB's will continue to tear up the league. Shanny's two rings came via this system with TD and Elway at the helm. Had Elway had a running game in his previous SB's, Shanny wouldnt get as much credit.

Mile High Mania
06-06-2001, 09:27 AM
Ok, now why do you get to use the "system" word now? :-)
I agree to a point about that remark. Had Elway been 1-2 and not 0-3, then maybe Shannahan wouldn't be so high on the list. But, the guy is damn good.

As for the OL - that is the one area that greatly concerns me. I don't know that they have replaced the talent they lost with Schlereth and Jones. Gibbs will be a "consultant", but I think you'll see his fingerprints all over the OL still in 2001.

KCJohnny
06-06-2001, 09:28 AM
Jim:
Did I mention all the years I suffered through the Orioles nearly getting to the WS?

Hopefully, this does have a purging effect on me.

Seriously, sometimes VERY good coaches don't get to the SB, WS or NBA Title game. That's just how it is. I would rather have a Marty or a Dennis Green and the good (luck?) fortune to happen upon a Kurt Warner or a Terrell Davis who can take the team the last step. But in my mind, you have to have a coach who can get you to the post season nearly every year, and that is something that Mora, Green and Marty have consistently done. You can't go to the SB if you make the playoffs.

KCJ
Cooking in sports purgatory

Mile High Mania
06-06-2001, 09:29 AM
Dangit... sorry Joe! Just noticed you posted the same topic before I did. I wasn't paying attention...

milkman
06-06-2001, 09:34 AM
Quote from KCJohnny
You can't go to the SB if you make the playoffs.


Is a Freudian(sp) slip possible when typing?

But is is so true when talking about the new M and Ms and Green.

DeepSouth
06-06-2001, 09:34 AM
KCJohnny, I'm surprised you didn't list Haslett (NO) in any of your catagories. I think he deserves to at least be in your "up and coming".

And how can Billick be in "up and coming" when he just won the Superbowl? I'd think once he won the superbowl, he ain't coming, he's already here.

KCJohnny
06-06-2001, 09:35 AM
I have no problem conceding Shanny as the best coach in the NFL.
Strokes my ego.
Gun was 4-0 against Shanny.
Question is, can Shanny transistion the '96-97 Donx into a new dynasty with Griese, Andersen, etc...instead of Elway, Davis, etc...

KCJ

KCJohnny
06-06-2001, 09:39 AM
Deep South:

Good points.
I threw my list together very haphazardly. Billick should be in the 2nd tier and Haslett should be in the up'n'coming. Thanks.

Milkman: Thanks for pointing out my typo. Should say, "can't get to the SB if you don't make the playoffs." Freudian slip? If I believed that Freud was anything other than a Darwinian fraud, I'd have to agree.

KCJ
:p

milkman
06-06-2001, 09:42 AM
Finally, something we can agree on!

KCTitus
06-06-2001, 09:43 AM
MHM: dang...I did say system, but was referring to the plug-n-play nature of the backfield and not 'The System'.

Shanny is good, if just for going back to back, that's good, but I give more of that credit to Elway than Shanny. If Shanny does it w/o Elway, and I have no problems saying he's the #1 HC.

As far as Marty is concerned, one only needs to review some of his offseason pickups...the 3 stooges and Donnell Bennett. I think that pretty much speaks for itself.

KCJohnny
06-06-2001, 09:48 AM
Well Hallelujah! Milkman and I agreed on something.
Still waiting to see what you are FOR, not just against, however.
KCJ

milkman
06-06-2001, 10:13 AM
I am for a 1-2 punch of T-Rich/Holmes.
I am for giving Sly the oppportunity to develop, 'cause I think that he can turn out to be a great receiver under the tuteledge of Joiner, who I believe is responsble for Moulds development in Buffalo.
I am for featuring Gonzo in the passing attack, because defenses have no answer for him.
I am for using Donnie Edwards speed and quickness in pass rushing.
I am for giving Bartee/Dennis the chance to compete for the CB spot, because they showed some talent, when allowed to play in something other than the stinking soft zone.
I am for giving Maz the opportunity to compete for the starting MLB job, because the defense can use his fire and emotion on the field.

And most importantly, I am for using an attacking philosophy on both sides of the ball.
We've seen where passivity takes us.

htismaqe
06-06-2001, 10:19 AM
Amen to the milk guy...

Well said.

milkman
06-06-2001, 05:49 PM
You said you looking to see what I am for. It's here in this thread.
I don't want you to miss it.

Mi_chief_fan
06-06-2001, 08:20 PM
8 coaches ranked ahead of Brian Billick. He & Jeff Fisher are 1&2, everyone else is a step below at this point. Fisher, especially, has endured a tumultuous reign of not knowing one season to the next where his team would play, and yet always had a competitive team on the field.

BTW, Dan Reeves & Tom Coughlin in the top 10? Aheas of Bill Cowher, Jim Haslett, Steve Mariucci, Mike Sherman & Andy Reid?

Glad I don't rely on Pete Prisco for any information. (That actually explains Coughlin being so high).

KCJohnny
06-06-2001, 10:34 PM
After FOUR years, I finally find out what you are FOR instead of AGAINST, and guess what?

I'm FOR IT, TOO!!!!!!!!

I agree on everything except the implicit accusation that Gunther didn't attack. He attacked a helluva lot more than Marty, at least on offense.

Please, maintain the positivity, bro!!!!

KCJ
Happy to see anything other than banal criticism

nickman
06-07-2001, 12:54 PM
I think the good coaches have balance. Sometimes it is tilted one way or the other for a year but overall they put a good team on the field. Walsh, Parcells, Gibbs and although I dislike him Jimmy Johnson teams all showed balance. Marty never had balance. He had good defensive teams. Gunther did not even have balance from one series to another on either side of the ball.

After suffering through the 80's Marty was a wonderful addition and brought the Chiefs to a wonderful plateau. But that is what it was, a plateau. You cannot play to lose in the playoffs. You have to play to win. You can let the bad teams beat themselves in the regular season but in the playoffs you cannot win games waiting on a good team to lose it.

The arguments always come up that Chicago in 85 and Baltimore last year won with defense. This is true but there defensive teams has such talent and attacked so completly that they literally forced the other team to lose. We never had that kind of talent on the defensive side of the ball.

milkman
06-07-2001, 08:20 PM
Johnny,
If you had been paying attention to anything I've posted other than my "banal" criticisms, you would've noticed that I've said similiar things before.
But, of course, my criticism is so banal, that you couldn't see anything else.

KCJohnny
06-09-2001, 04:43 PM
Milkman:
I avoided using the adjective 'your' banal criticism.
Sorry if I offended you.
No harm intended.
KCJ
Purveyor of banal praise