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View Full Version : For all you football experts that wanted Croyle...it's all about the Oline


chris
10-07-2007, 02:32 PM
With this line, Farve, Brady, whomever, would look bad.

Forget about Croyle.

Shift your boring whining to the awful Oline.

Marty Mac Ver 2.0
10-07-2007, 02:34 PM
The Packers offensive line sucks as well. They have no Pro Bowl players. Favre has been bounced a few times this year. He is, however, smart enough to make plays and has the ability to throw the ball downfield.

BigMeatballDave
10-07-2007, 02:35 PM
You can still have good QB play with a bad line.

KCChiefsFan88
10-07-2007, 02:35 PM
That is what happens when you neglect the offensive line for nearly a decade. You build the offensive line through the draft and you need to invest high-round draft picks in it.

The Chiefs haven't used a first or second round pick on an offensive linemen since John Tait back in '99. They have tried to rebuild the offensive line using washed up journeymen such as McIntosh, Turley, etc.

That isn't going to cut it.

Reerun_KC
10-07-2007, 02:36 PM
Our QB is about as mobile as a concrete statue...

Nothing our OL can do to make Horrid any better than he is....

Coach
10-07-2007, 02:36 PM
You do know the term of "Hermcuffing" means?

It means that Herman ****ing Edwards does a fan****ingtastic job on hermcuffing offenses since 2001.

chris
10-07-2007, 02:37 PM
You can still have good QB play with a bad line.


Maybe in the PeeWee league. ROFL

BigMeatballDave
10-07-2007, 02:38 PM
That is what happens when you neglect the offensive line for nearly a decade. You build the offensive line through the draft and you need to invest high-round draft picks in it.

The Chiefs haven't used a first or second round pick on an offensive linemen since John Tait back in '99. They have tried to rebuild the offensive line using washed up journeymen such as McIntosh, Turley, etc.

That isn't going to cut it.You actually said something sensible.

Shag
10-07-2007, 02:38 PM
Nobody's made any claims that the OL is any good. But, it's the only OL that we have - it's not like we have some better lineman waiting in the wings.

The same can't be said for the QB position.

chris
10-07-2007, 02:39 PM
The Packers offensive line sucks as well. They have no Pro Bowl players. Favre has been bounced a few times this year. He is, however, smart enough to make plays and has the ability to throw the ball downfield.


Really? I've watched every Packer game (wife is from WI). Unlike last year, he has a decent line to protect him.

How many games have you watched?

kcgizmo
10-07-2007, 02:40 PM
the oline has been doing a good job on pass defence, but now you need a QB that can find more than just one guy during the whole game, you know move the ball around, we do have a couple more players on this team, I may be wrong and Huerd is doing a great job.

ChiefaRoo
10-07-2007, 02:40 PM
It'll all be ok once Turley gets back.

Marty Mac Ver 2.0
10-07-2007, 03:09 PM
Good QB play makes up for a sub par offensive line. I'm not saying they are the worst, but they ain't good. Isn't it true that no Packers RB has rushed for than 50 yards a game? Good lines are good at run blocking. The Packers have some young and talented (albeit constantly hurt) RBs.

NUMBER7
10-07-2007, 03:27 PM
The Packers offensive line sucks as well. They have no Pro Bowl players. Favre has been bounced a few times this year. He is, however, smart enough to make plays and has the ability to throw the ball downfield.

Favre actually has RBs who block...what a novel approach for football...of gee that is a basic tenet of a good effective offense.

Iowanian
10-07-2007, 03:29 PM
The offensive Line is pretty shitty.....Huard would be Shitty behind a great Oline.

We know what he is, we know he has no upside, we KNOW he isn't the future.

The team isn't going to be good, isn't going to be a contender.....Find out if Croyle can play or not.

This stretch of Home games is the perfect time to find out if the Chiefs need to draft a QB or not in 08.

Psyko Tek
10-07-2007, 03:43 PM
Favre actually has RBs who block...what a novel approach for football...of gee that is a basic tenet of a good effective offense.

that's that arena league stuff right

we ain't havin' none of that chit 'round here

Bob Dole
10-07-2007, 03:48 PM
With this line, Farve, Brady, whomever, would look bad.

Forget about Croyle.

Shift your boring whining to the awful Oline.

Actually, the O-line isn't giving up a lot of sacks. The O-line is killing the running game, but the O-line is not to blame for Huard staring down his primary receiver or panicking into throwing the checkdown.

Croyle's release is about 140% faster than Huard's, so any O-line weakness in the passing game would be even smaller with Croyle under center.

luv
10-07-2007, 03:58 PM
Actually, the O-line isn't giving up a lot of sacks. The O-line is killing the running game, but the O-line is not to blame for Huard staring down his primary receiver or panicking into throwing the checkdown.

Croyle's release is about 140% faster than Huard's, so any O-line weakness in the passing game would be even smaller with Croyle under center.
Croyle looked like he was playing hot potato compared to Huard.

Bob Dole
10-07-2007, 04:01 PM
Croyle looked like he was playing hot potato compared to Huard.

It's called "quick release".

Watch old film of Marino.

(Bob Dole is not comparing Croyle to MArino beyond the speed of his release.)

keg in kc
10-07-2007, 04:03 PM
This would be a valid point if Croyle hadn't come in twice this season and moved the offense virtually at will.

It's like a different team.

blueballs
10-07-2007, 04:06 PM
Hell even fumbling Printers moved the offense

chris
10-07-2007, 04:07 PM
This would be a valid point if Croyle hadn't come in twice this season and moved the offense virtually at will.

It's like a different team.

Aah, today was because of prevent defense.

Count Alex's Wins
10-07-2007, 04:08 PM
This would be a valid point if Croyle hadn't come in twice this season and moved the offense virtually at will.

It's like a different team.

You can't be serious.

Croyle's two drives have consisted of 90 percent checkdowns. He threw two deep passes down the sideline that were basically both a wing and a prayer.

PastorMikH
10-07-2007, 04:08 PM
It coult be said say that the O-Line would look better if the QB made better decisions and the RB did a better job of running just as easily as they can be blamed.


The Jags D was pushing for a shutout, they wanted a shutout. Croyle denied them. Huard would have went 3 and out - how do I know, he did it numerous times already today.


I'm not really sure that our O-Line is as terrible as it's getting credit for being. Nobody respects Huard's ability to go downfield so they stack the box. Add in that LJ is tired of getting hammered and is playing two hand touch out there, there's no way our running game is going to get going. How are 5-6 guys supposed to block 8-9 defenders who know the run is coming?


Now, do we have a great OL? No, long ways from it. But smart coaches play to stregnths and away from weaknesses. Our coaching staffs for the last 8 years have tried to do just the opposite.

keg in kc
10-07-2007, 04:10 PM
The reality is, Croyle took the team downfield on a defense hungry to shut us out. Does anybody honestly believe Huard could've done the same?

It comes down to this: you guys can continue to make excuses for Huard, I'd prefer to look at results, and try to find some shimmer of hope for the future.

the Talking Can
10-07-2007, 04:12 PM
does the "it's not me its the OL" excuse apply retroactively to preseason?

PastorMikH
10-07-2007, 04:12 PM
You can't be serious.

Croyle's two drives have consisted of 90 percent checkdowns. He threw two deep passes down the sideline that were basically both a wing and a prayer.


And Huard doesn't pass to his checkdown recievers because he has his mind made up before the snap who he's going to.


This O philosophy is supposed to be set up with 3-5 checkdown options. The QB is supposed to go through progressions and throw to whichever option the D doesn't cover. IE, it's philosophy is you take what the D gives you - you find what they are giving by going through the progressions.

The fact that Croyle is, as you say, hitting 90% of his passes to the checkdowns tells me that he already has a better understanding of this O than Huard does.

JuicesFlowing
10-07-2007, 04:13 PM
You can still have good QB play with a bad line.

Exactly. It's the run blocking that's garbage ... the pass blocking was okay.

Count Alex's Wins
10-07-2007, 04:14 PM
The fact that Croyle is, as you say, hitting 90% of his passes to the checkdowns tells me that he already has a better understanding of this O than Huard does.

That's some amazing spin right there. People were bashing Huard to no end for throwing to his checkdowns in the first two games.

L.A. Chieffan
10-07-2007, 04:15 PM
ITS GONZOS FAULT THAT HE WASNT OPEN ENOUGH IN THAT FIRST DRIVE FOR THE TD! **** YOU TG!!!

PastorMikH
10-07-2007, 04:16 PM
That's some amazing spin right there. People were bashing Huard to no end for throwing to his checkdowns in the first two games.



The difference is Huard was, and still is, deciding which checkdown to throw to BEFORE THE BALL IS SNAPPED. That is why Wilson gets the ball out in the flats so quickly. He's supposed to be the 3rd to 4th option, Huard was going to him first.

keg in kc
10-07-2007, 04:17 PM
That's because Croyle goes to his checkdown after scanning the field and finding no one open, whereas Huard apparently decides at the snap he's going to his, especially if he sees anything that looks remotely like a guy getting ready to blitz.

That might be why Croyle's checkdown throws go for first downs while Huards go for 3-5 yards.

Lzen
10-07-2007, 04:24 PM
I don't know if Croyle is the answer at QB for the future of this team. But the fact of the matter is that this offense actually looks pretty good when Croyle has gotten a chance. Like others have said, Croyle seems to make this offense go. Huard is not an NFL starter. I've said it all season and I have seen absolutely nothing this season to make me change my mind.

GarySpFc
10-07-2007, 04:30 PM
With this line, Farve, Brady, whomever, would look bad.

Forget about Croyle.

Shift your boring whining to the awful Oline.

Oh nonsense! The quarterback needs to throw slightly better than the ruptured ducks we have been seeing.

ChiefaRoo
10-07-2007, 04:31 PM
I thought Colquitt looked great though. :)

AZORChiefFan
10-07-2007, 04:35 PM
The offensive Line is pretty shitty.....Huard would be Shitty behind a great Oline.

We know what he is, we know he has no upside, we KNOW he isn't the future.

The team isn't going to be good, isn't going to be a contender.....Find out if Croyle can play or not.

This stretch of Home games is the perfect time to find out if the Chiefs need to draft a QB or not in 08.
Well said. :clap:

MadMax
10-07-2007, 04:37 PM
Oh nonsense! The quarterback needs to throw slightly better than the ruptured ducks we have been seeing.


BLAM! That's a fact.

keg in kc
10-07-2007, 04:38 PM
I don't know if Croyle is the answer at QB for the future of this team. But the fact of the matter is that this offense actually looks pretty good when Croyle has gotten a chance. Like others have said, Croyle seems to make this offense go. Huard is not an NFL starter. I've said it all season and I have seen absolutely nothing this season to make me change my mind.It's not much in terms of sample size, but Croyle is now 10-17 (58.8%) on the season for 138 yards (8.12 ypa/13.8 ypc) and a TD. 2 sacks.

In the two games that Croyle played, Huard went 38-58 (65.5%) for 371 yards (6.39 ypa/9.76 ypc), 1 TD and 2 INT. 5 sacks.

So Huard's had a higher completion percentage, but significantly lower yards/attempt and /completion.

They're intriguing numbers...

Can Croyle sustain that kind of performance over an entire game? Probably not. He'll get hit more, obviously, and he will turn the ball over (part of the learning curve...). He needs to keep his completion percentage on the good side of 60, too, but he'll also have more chances to go downfield and wouldn't be facing defenses in obvious passing situations every time he's on the field.

Either way, he definitely won't perform with his ass squarely planted on the bench...

MadMax
10-07-2007, 04:39 PM
That's some amazing spin right there. People were bashing Huard to no end for throwing to his checkdowns in the first two games.



You really are a moron...absolutely retarded!

Count Alex's Wins
10-07-2007, 04:42 PM
They're intriguing numbers...


They are completely worthless numbers, actually. You couldn't have found a more irrelevant set of data.

Coach
10-07-2007, 04:44 PM
They are completely worthless numbers, actually. You couldn't have found a more irrelevant set of data.

I think this is more revelent. Today's Chiefs QB ratings aganist the Jaguars.

Huard's QB rating = 68.19
Croyle's QB rating = 92.79

Count Alex's Wins
10-07-2007, 04:46 PM
I think this is more revelent. Today's Chiefs QB ratings aganist the Jaguars.

Huard's QB rating = 68.19
Croyle's QB rating = 92.79

Wow. You actually managed to find even MORE irrelevant data. Single-game QB ratings mean absolutely nothing.

banyon
10-07-2007, 04:47 PM
They are completely worthless numbers, actually. You couldn't have found a more irrelevant set of data.

:spock: How are yards per completion, completion percentage, and TD/INT's irrelevant to QB play?

Sure-Oz
10-07-2007, 04:47 PM
We can pass block just not run block worth shit

donkhater
10-07-2007, 04:48 PM
I thought the O-line protected pretty well this game. Terry is no gem, but he wasn't a turnstile.

There is just no explosion off the ball in the run game. Those bashing Larry are only partially right. he is trying a little too hard and his selfish attitude (particulary after a win) is not the mark of a leader. But you don't produce like he did last year and suddenly go into the toilet. No I don't buy it. And you shouldn't be sellin' it.

Rather, teams are still willing to see if Damon Huard and the dynamic Edwards brain trust will take what the other team is willing to concede instead of slowly bleeding away with LJ.

Remember last season when NE went to Minnesota with the Vikings having one of the best rush defenses in the league. What did NE do? They hardley ran the ball at all and blew them out. Herm and Co. are to stubborn to do something like that. Instead it takes 2.5 quarters to figure it out.

cdcox
10-07-2007, 04:50 PM
They are completely worthless numbers, actually. You couldn't have found a more irrelevant set of data.

I thought they were thought provoking. They show that Croyle was able to do something that Huard was not. Yeah Croyle was playing during garbage time. Still...

Answer yes or no. If Huard had finished the game, do you think he would he have lead the team to a score? I really don't. Most people in the game thread thought we were going to be shutout.

jjjayb
10-07-2007, 04:52 PM
Huards problem is his tunnel vision. He looks for his primary receiver and if he isn't open he dumps it too his running back. Unfortunately alot of times his primary receiver is covered and his other receiver is wide frigging open but Huard never sees him because hes going straight to the checkdown.

At least Croyle actually scans the field and looks to see if anyone is open besides his first receiver before he checks down to the running back.

Huard is a career backup. Period.

PastorMikH
10-07-2007, 04:52 PM
:spock: How are yards per completion, completion percentage, and TD/INT's irrelevant to QB play?




Because they prove the point that is contrary to his point.

Huard's completion percentage also benifits from all the result short throws.

keg in kc
10-07-2007, 04:52 PM
They are completely worthless numbers, actually. You couldn't have found a more irrelevant set of data.It's the only set of data we have, which is what makes it pertinent.

In any case, Huard has clearly proven he's not starting material. Here's the "relevant" data:

97-149 (65.1%) for 1029 yards (6.90 ypa/10.61 ypc) , 4 TD and 6 INT.

Clearly not starting material...

...unless you're happy with a 3200 yard, 13 TD, 19 INT quarterback, which is what Huard projects out to be.

I could live with those stats from Croyle, because it would be on-the-job training. While with Huard, well, we've seen his best. 5 times this year, so far. He's as good as he'll ever be. And the myth that "he gives us the best chance to win" has been exposed for the load of crap it always was.

Coach
10-07-2007, 04:53 PM
Wow. You actually managed to find even MORE irrelevant data. Single-game QB ratings mean absolutely nothing.

Opposed to the true revelent evidence that Damon Huard just sucks, Mr. Goebbels.

And as for your boy-toy Damon Huard, I'm personally tired of him consistantly not going through his progressions and dumping it off to the FB/HB all the time. His passes are rarely accurate. Bowe and Gonzalez both had to make great plays just to catch the damn ball. Huard threw two passes that I saw that were good, accurate passes which were clearly to our players and not the defense.

My Vote was for Croyle. Not some limp noodle arm, that can't handle pressure.

I have news for you, Mr. Goebbels. Huard will never get any respect from me. He throws inaccurately, he fumbles too much, and makes piss-poor reads. Those are not good things to have in a QB. The young guy can perform five yard patterns to his check down guy, I have no doubts of it.

And I have said all along since the beginning of the season, Huard will have more INT's than TD's. That seems to be proving me correct. There's a reason why he was a 3rd stringer at one point in New England.

So, that being said, get your face off of Damon's cock, and open your ****ing eyes, and try to at least understand why Damon sucks, period. JFC, I'd rather have Jake Plummer over Damon Huard, and even that's not much of a improvement.

Count Alex's Wins
10-07-2007, 04:53 PM
You act like there are quarterbacks that would play better with NO RUNNING GAME. I know Croyle certainly wouldn't.

Coach
10-07-2007, 04:54 PM
You act like there are quarterbacks that would play better with NO RUNNING GAME. I know Croyle certainly wouldn't.

You can't prove that Croyle certainly wouldn't, becuase he hasn't been given the chance to prove it, Mr. Goebbels.

Count Alex's Wins
10-07-2007, 04:55 PM
You can't prove that Croyle certainly wouldn't, becuase he hasn't been given the chance to prove it, Mr. Goebbels.

This is just ridiculous. You really think it's a good idea to throw a green QB in there and make him drop back 75 percent of the time? You're just asking for disaster.

donkhater
10-07-2007, 04:55 PM
You act like there are quarterbacks that would play better with NO RUNNING GAME. I know Croyle certainly wouldn't.
You just don't get it do you? DAMON HUARD PITCHED A SHUTOUT!!!!!!

As in 0, na-da, points. What the the world does KC have to lose by putting in Croyle????

I don't think negative points are possible in the NFL.

Coach
10-07-2007, 04:57 PM
This is just ridiculous. You really think it's a good idea to throw a green QB in there and make him drop back 75 percent of the time? You're just asking for disaster.

Jesus, what do you think we're in right now anyways? The Chiefs just ran smack in the middle of a ****in disaster.

Another point to make is that, other than the Raiders, the AFC West QB's are younger, except for Kansas City. I know the Raiders will more than likely will give JaMarcus his reps soon.

We just wasted a year becuase of it.

Chiefaholic
10-07-2007, 04:58 PM
The Chiefs aren't even going to sniff the playoffs this season. There are multiple decisions the coaching staff needs to make reguarding our biggest offseason needs. The most obvious needs are youth and talent on the O-Line and the secondary. Yet, if we don't know what our future has at QB, next years high draft pick could be wasted.

Huard makes a respectable backup, but nothing more. Croyle needs to get used to playing the game at full speed and develope chemistry with his recievers. I'de say let him play NOW just to see what we have to work with in the future.

jjjayb
10-07-2007, 04:58 PM
You act like there are quarterbacks that would play better with NO RUNNING GAME. I know Croyle certainly wouldn't.


You ever stop to think Huard is part of the reason for the bad running game? He isn't a threat so teams can tee up on our running game. How can you be scared of a quarterback that can't throw more than 20 yard down the field.

Count Alex's Wins
10-07-2007, 04:58 PM
Jesus, what do you think we're in right now anyways? The Chiefs just ran smack in the middle of a ****in disaster.


No. What's a disaster is having your quarterback throw four interceptions and watching your team lose by 35 points.

Count Alex's Wins
10-07-2007, 04:59 PM
You ever stop to think Huard is part of the reason for the bad running game? He isn't a threat so teams can tee up on our running game. How can you be scared of a quarterback that can't throw more than 20 yard down the field.

Wasn't an issue last year. We're not gonna start magically blocking people just because Croyle gets in there.

donkhater
10-07-2007, 05:00 PM
No. What's a disaster is having your quarterback throw four interceptions and watching your team lose by 35 points.
Really? Think Croyle is that big of a dropoff from Huard? So what if he is (he isn't). A loss is a loss. Maybe he would (gasp) learn something from some failures instead of the pine needles in his ass.

keg in kc
10-07-2007, 05:01 PM
Actually, some of us believe that putting Croyle in there would open up things for the running game, because he provides a downfield threat that opposing defenses would have to respect. With Damon Huard in there, whether we run or pass, there's no reason for the defenders to worry about anything more than 5-10 yards downfield. Which is why they sit on every short route all game long tee'd-up and ready to decapitate whatever hapless receiver is tasked with catching the latest donald duck fired from flamin' Damon's mighty peashooter.

jjjayb
10-07-2007, 05:01 PM
Wasn't an issue last year. We're not gonna start magically blocking people just because Croyle gets in there.


But you better believe the safeties won't cheat up if they think we can throw the ball deep on them. With Huard in there they are consistently cheating up to stop the run. They don't need to drop back to help the corner because we NEVER throw it deep with Huard in as QB.

Scorp
10-07-2007, 05:01 PM
Huards time is done, move on GoChiefs.

Count Alex's Wins
10-07-2007, 05:01 PM
But you better believe the safeties won't cheat up if they think we can throw the ball deep on them. With Huard in there they are consistently cheating up to stop the run. They don't need to drop back to help the corner because we NEVER throw it deep with Huard in as QB.

It's not an issue. Last year LJ ran for 1800 frickin' yards.

Molitoth
10-07-2007, 05:02 PM
With our shitty line, we need a QB that can scramble and move around in or out of the pocket. Huard just falls down or throws the checkdown everytime. Not only that but his passes are always so high, I'm suprised a receiver hasn't been injured yet.

jjjayb
10-07-2007, 05:03 PM
It's not an issue. Last year LJ ran for 1800 frickin' yards.

Until Indy showed the world that all you have to do is stack it up against LJ and he can't run. That's what every team has done to us since.

Coach
10-07-2007, 05:03 PM
No. What's a disaster is having your quarterback throw four interceptions and watching your team lose by 35 points.

Unopposed to a quarterback who has already thrown six INT's in 5 games? Not to mention that Damon provides no upside for the franchise?

I'd rather have Brodie in there, throwing 4 INT's and watching my team lose by 35 points. It's all about getting experience.

Besides, people aren't paying tickets just to see Damon Huard, Mr. Goebbels.

donkhater
10-07-2007, 05:03 PM
Wasn't an issue last year. We're not gonna start magically blocking people just because Croyle gets in there.
Funny thing about run blocking. It's a lot easier when six guys only need to block 6-7 guys insted of 8-9.

No, Jacksonville didn't load up, but the safeties were cheating. Gonzo made them pay early, but after they realized Huard was only going to him or bigfoot in the flat the game was over.

Meanwhile Denver is about to go down 34-3. ROFL

keg in kc
10-07-2007, 05:05 PM
Wasn't an issue last year.It wasn't?

Larry's average went down almost a full yard/carry in '06. He had to carry the ball 80 extra times, and set an NFL record, just to match his '05 yardage totals.

So is this year an aberration, or the continuation of a downward spiral?

donkhater
10-07-2007, 05:05 PM
Until Indy showed the world that all you have to do is stack it up against LJ and he can't run. That's what every team has done to us since.
If it works, why deviate from it?

I'm not sure Cincy won't keep LJ down next week. If solari and Herm are determined to run the ball instead of taking the obvious passing lanes that are open, I'd stack the line too.

Ya think that's what LJ is pissed about?

RedThat
10-07-2007, 05:08 PM
I thought the O-line was decent in pass protecting, but horrible in runblocking.

It's not a great O-line we have, nor good either...It's a very below average one.

Our running game sucks for 2 reasons: 1. The runblocking is awful, and 2. LJ isn't running with much confidence. I noticed on most runs, LJ doesn't run with authority. So when your O-line isn't blocking well, and your RB is doing that, that's a pretty bad combination if you ask me?

*The last drive in the game, there was that one play that had me convinced Croyle should start over Huard...Yeah, I think it's time. I like the fact that Croyle is much faster then Huard, he has more of an ability to scramble and flush himself out of the pocket, and frikk'n throw that ball down the field with great spin and pretty much accuracy. Great pass to Bowe that got us in Jacksonville territory. Now, had that been Huard, that play wouldn't have happened.

Chiefs would have been shutout.

siberian khatru
10-07-2007, 05:09 PM
No. What's a disaster is having your quarterback throw four interceptions and watching your team lose by 35 points.

You THINK that's what's gonna happen, but we won't KNOW that unless Croyle plays. We KNOW what Huard's all about, because he keeps showing it week after week.

We have to find out what Croyle's about. We have to let him make some mistakes, and see if he gets better the more he plays. Then we'll know if we have a young QB we can play a couple of years from now, or whether we need to find another one in the draft soon.

Floridafan
10-07-2007, 05:09 PM
No. What's a disaster is having your quarterback throw four interceptions and watching your team lose by 35 points.

Oh I get it. It's better if you only lose by 10 points. Let me see if I get this right. If I lose by 35 that's unacceptable. But if I only lose by 10 that's better because it makes us look better in the standings?

I don't post that often but based on what I've read from you in this post your 50,000 posts must really have some serious football knowledge and wisdom in them.

You need to pull Damon's wanker out of your hind end.

We need to start Brodie and see what we've got.

We're not going anywhere anyway so why not.

siberian khatru
10-07-2007, 05:10 PM
Let me ask you this, C.E. Cutler just threw another INT. He throws at least one every week.

Is that acceptable? Should the Broncos be playing him?

Coach
10-07-2007, 05:11 PM
You THINK that's what's gonna happen, but we won't KNOW that unless Croyle plays. We KNOW what Huard's all about, because he keeps showing it week after week.

We have to find out what Croyle's about. We have to let him make some mistakes, and see if he gets better the more he plays. Then we'll know if we have a young QB we can play a couple of years from now, or whether we need to find another one in the draft soon.

Croyle is a 2nd-year player making mental mistakes - easily correctable.

Huard is an 11th-year player making PHYSICAL mistakes - might not be correctable at all.

Count Alex's Wins
10-07-2007, 05:11 PM
I don't want Brodie playing without a running game to support him. END OF STORY. Let Huard get rocked.

donkhater
10-07-2007, 05:12 PM
Let me ask you this, C.E. Cutler just threw another INT. He throws at least one every week.

Is that acceptable? Should the Broncos be playing him?
For that matter, what about Rivers? His passer rating has gradually declined since he started lat season. Should SD bench him?

Coach
10-07-2007, 05:12 PM
Let me ask you this, C.E. Cutler just threw another INT. He throws at least one every week.

Is that acceptable? Should the Broncos be playing him?

Opposed to Jake Plummer doing the same?

Cutler is a 2nd year player, still going to make mistakes, no doubt. However, I think Cutler will be a good QB once he gets some experience in.

siberian khatru
10-07-2007, 05:14 PM
Opposed to Jake Plummer doing the same?

Cutler is a 2nd year player, still going to make mistakes, no doubt. However, I think Cutler will be a good QB once he gets some experience in.

Exactly. Rat's willing to give Cutler a chance to grow. I want to do the same with Croyle.

Coach
10-07-2007, 05:17 PM
Exactly. Rat's willing to give Cutler a chance to grow. I want to do the same with Croyle.

When this year's training camp started, I wished that Brodie was the clear-cut QB right from the start. I really hate QB competitions in training camp. They only ensure one thing:

That NONE of your QB's are ready by opening day.

You cut their reps and play time with the starters in half. Training camp is about developing chemistry.

Everyone ripped Marvin Lewis for the bengals for giving Palmer the job over Kitna without a competition, but I thought it was the right move. Do everything you can to make sure the young guy is ready, when the coach thinks he's ready. If they didn't think he was ready, he should go in as no.2 from the START of camp. I understand that Croyle isn't near the prospect Palmer was, but my point is about playing time. Pick a guy and let him GET READY FOR THE SEASON.

QB competition = Bad

Coach
10-07-2007, 05:18 PM
I don't want Brodie playing without a running game to support him. END OF STORY. Let Huard get rocked.

Tough shit. Brodie should be the starting Quarterback from here on out.

Straight, No Chaser
10-07-2007, 05:22 PM
Can LJ throw the ball?
When LJ gets the ball on the sweep the safeties come up --open for a easy TD

PastorMikH
10-07-2007, 05:22 PM
Say Coach, I think that with all of gochiefs vast knowledge of football you should hire him as an assistant coach. He could probably turn your program around all by himself.

Coach
10-07-2007, 05:22 PM
Say Coach, I think that with all of gochiefs vast knowledge of football you should hire him as an assistant coach. He could probably turn your program around all by himself.

lol, that's a joke, right?

PastorMikH
10-07-2007, 05:24 PM
I don't want Brodie playing without a running game to support him. END OF STORY. Let Huard get rocked.



And I'd just as soon find out if he has what it takes to be our QBOTF. If he can't make the most of this situation he isn't the guy we need anyway and we'll have a high first round pick to use on one of the top QBs in the draft.

banyon
10-07-2007, 05:25 PM
ROFL

PastorMikH
10-07-2007, 05:26 PM
lol, that's a joke, right?


:shrug:

Something about watching someone who learned everything he knows about football from internet message boards trying to argue with a guy that does it for a living kinda humors me.

:)

milkman
10-07-2007, 05:28 PM
Here's the thing.

I don't give a rat's ass about numbers.

I base opinions on what I see on the field of play.

What I saw on that scoring drive were two throws by Croyle that huard can't make.

A short pass to Gonzo early in the drive that had needed zip on it.

And that deep ball, after Croyle felt pressure and was running toward the sideline and made that throw on the run.

Those are the things that Brodie brings.

We need to find out if he has the tools mentally to develop, because has a damn sight more physical talent than Huard.

PastorMikH
10-07-2007, 05:28 PM
ROFL

Those are completely worthless numbers, actually. You couldn't have found a more irrelevant set of data. Single-game QB ratings mean absolutely nothing


:)

RedThat
10-07-2007, 05:30 PM
I don't want Brodie playing without a running game to support him. END OF STORY. Let Huard get rocked.

what difference does that make?

the run blocking on this team stinks. and LJ isn't running with much authority anyway. Plus, teams are stacking 8 in the box on us anyway?

Even with huard in there, the passing game isn't getting much of a spark with good weapons in Gonzalez, and Bowe.

Huard has no upside, he is what he is, mediocre...He doesn't check down his receiving corps as well, his tunnel vision isn't as good, plus he has a noodle of an arm, can't scramble and flush himself out of the pocket, threw up a duck today...horrible pass to reggie nelson.

There is no way the passing game is going to get any better when your QB has those type of attributes.

After watching Croyle, it is clear he has better attributes than Huard.

The passing game needs a spark, a change, Croyle should start...Point is, If the passing game gets better with Croyle, then that could possibly open up the running game?

And I think that needs to happen.

keg in kc
10-07-2007, 05:32 PM
And I'd just as soon find out if he has what it takes to be our QBOTF. If he can't make the most of this situation he isn't the guy we need anyway and we'll have a high first round pick to use on one of the top QBs in the draft.I hope to high heaven he's the qbotf, because we need a left tackle, a guard and a center, and they all need to be day-1 quality players. Keep Waters at LG, move McIntosh to RT (or keep him there and groom the rookie at RT) and scrap the rest.

Not to mention a CB, which we need in the worst way. And we could still use a stud tackle in the middle of the D, although I don't think they can afford to spend any more picks on that.

Hopefully we can find some gems in free agency, or Nieswanger is the next Tim Grunhard.

Skip Towne
10-07-2007, 05:37 PM
Say Coach, I think that with all of gochiefs vast knowledge of football you should hire him as an assistant coach. He could probably turn your program around all by himself.
Hey, you just blew up my sarcasm meter!!

Count Alex's Wins
10-07-2007, 05:40 PM
Croyle's just gonna get hurt if he plays this year. Bad.

DaneMcCloud
10-07-2007, 05:40 PM
I hope to high heaven he's the qbotf, because we need a left tackle, a guard and a center, and they all need to be day-1 quality players. Keep Waters at LG, move McIntosh to RT (or keep him there and groom the rookie at RT) and scrap the rest.

Not to mention a CB, which we need in the worst way. And we could still use a stud tackle in the middle of the D, although I don't think they can afford to spend any more picks on that.

Hopefully we can find some gems in free agency, or Nieswanger is the next Tim Grunhard.

Unless the next Peyton Manning is available when the Chiefs pick, they need to chose a LT, RT, RG and Center before a QB. Everyone on this line is on the wrong side of 30 and the Chiefs need to draft at least three offensive lineman to start in 2008.

Peyton Manning and Tom Brady would suck behind the Chiefs offensive line. 10 yards rushing? Ridiculous.

Coach
10-07-2007, 05:44 PM
Croyle's just gonna get hurt if he plays this year. Bad.

Nah.

donkhater
10-07-2007, 05:46 PM
Croyle's just gonna get hurt if he plays this year. Bad.
No wonder you like Herm. He coaches scared and you cheer scared.

milkman
10-07-2007, 05:48 PM
Unless the next Peyton Manning is available when the Chiefs pick, they need to chose a LT, RT, RG and Center before a QB. Everyone on this line is on the wrong side of 30 and the Chiefs need to draft at least three offensive lineman to start in 2008.

Peyton Manning and Tom Brady would suck behind the Chiefs offensive line. 10 yards rushing? Ridiculous.

The O-Line today did a pretty good job of pass protection.
Damon Huard's inability to go deep is the reason Damon Huard didn't play well.

The defense doesn't have to respect the deep ball because they are fairly certain he can't exploit them if they play everything close to the LOS.

Tom Brady won a SB with a mediocre grond game to support him when Antwan Smith was the primary RB.

So don't try to sell me that garbage.

I ain't buying it.

Sure-Oz
10-07-2007, 05:52 PM
The O-Line today did a pretty good job of pass protection.
Damon Huard's inability to go deep is the reason Damon Huard didn't play well.

The defense doesn't have to respect the deep ball because they are fairly certain he can't exploit them if they play everything close to the LOS.

Tom Brady won a SB with a mediocre grond game to support him when Antwan Smith was the primary RB.

So don't try to sell me that garbage.

I ain't buying it.
I love the consistent 3rd and 10 plays where we throw 3-5 yard routes

DaneMcCloud
10-07-2007, 05:53 PM
The O-Line today did a pretty good job of pass protection.
Damon Huard's inability to go deep is the reason Damon Huard didn't play well.

The defense doesn't have to respect the deep ball because they are fairly certain he can't exploit them if they play everything close to the LOS.

Tom Brady won a SB with a mediocre grond game to support him when Antwan Smith was the primary RB.

So don't try to sell me that garbage.

I ain't buying it.

Fine. Believe what you want to believe.

This offensive line is on the WRONG side of 30. They're old, worn out and DONE. 10 YARDS RUSHING.

LJ has no where to run. The lineman can't run block.

It's time for a complete overhaul. Regardless of what you're "buying".

Sure-Oz
10-07-2007, 05:54 PM
Fine. Believe what you want to believe.

This offensive line is on the WRONG side of 30. They're old, worn out and DONE. 10 YARDS RUSHING.

LJ has no where to run. The lineman can't run block.

It's time for a complete overhaul. Regardless of what you're "buying".
The line can pass block just fine....

Run Blocking is a different story

Coach
10-07-2007, 05:55 PM
Fine. Believe what you want to believe.

This offensive line is on the WRONG side of 30. They're old, worn out and DONE. 10 YARDS RUSHING.

LJ has no where to run. The lineman can't run block.

It's time for a complete overhaul. Regardless of what you're "buying".

The problem with the complete overhaul that it's not gonna happen as long as Kingless Carl Peterson and Herman F**king Edwards are still here.

DaneMcCloud
10-07-2007, 05:59 PM
The problem with the complete overhaul that it's not gonna happen as long as Kingless Carl Peterson and Herman F**king Edwards are still here.

I was referring to a complete overhaul of the offensive line. I'm sure they're aware that's needed and will take the necessary steps.

Coach
10-07-2007, 06:00 PM
I was referring to a complete overhaul of the offensive line. I'm sure they're aware that's needed and will take the necessary steps.

I wasn't aware that the necessary steps was to bring in Chris Terry and also Kyle Turley, whereas there are 3 young linemen on the practice squad, who should be getting reps.

milkman
10-07-2007, 06:01 PM
Fine. Believe what you want to believe.

This offensive line is on the WRONG side of 30. They're old, worn out and DONE. 10 YARDS RUSHING.

LJ has no where to run. The lineman can't run block.

It's time for a complete overhaul. Regardless of what you're "buying".

I don't disagree with the O-Line opinion.

I disagree with the opinion that Brady or Manning couldn't win behind this line.

DaneMcCloud
10-07-2007, 06:04 PM
I wasn't aware that the necessary steps was to bring in Chris Terry and also Kyle Turley, whereas there are 3 young linemen on the practice squad, who should be getting reps.

The difference between 6th, 7th and undrafted free agents versus top 10 draft choices is huge. It would be unconscionable to activate players for the practice squad and start them over the current veterans.

keg in kc
10-07-2007, 06:05 PM
I think the pass protection has been fine. We've given up 12 sacks in 5 games, which would come out to about 38 on the season. That's not good, but it's also not horrible (actually, about the same as last year, when we gave up 41). But watching the games, I'm not sitting here thinking "damn, that poor Huard's under a lot of heat". He seems to have plenty of time to throw more often than not, at least when he isn't dumping it off .5 seconds after the snap.

I think the run blocking has been the primary problem, and I believe that's in large part the result of defenses not respecting the ability of our offense to go downfield. It's simple math: they put more guys out there to stop the run than we have blockers. And let's face it, we got spoiled having the best line in the league for a long time. The reality is that, most often than not, 5 linemen and 1/2 TEs are not going to handle a front 7 and a safety (or two) poised to stop the run. We don't even have a blocking fullback, which just exacerbates the problem. I think the fact that the line isn't blocking like they were in their heyday doesn't mean they're 'bad' necessarily, it just means they aren't Roaf, Waters, Wiegmann, Shields and (insert name here).

Either way, until we make teams pay for stacking the line on us, we aren't going to be able to run the ball. I still think this line is better than last year, and I think it will continue to get better as the year goes on. But something has to be done to open up the passing game, because we're back to where we need to open the run with the pass.

Coach
10-07-2007, 06:19 PM
The difference between 6th, 7th and undrafted free agents versus top 10 draft choices is huge. It would be unconscionable to activate players for the practice squad and start them over the current veterans.

That didn't stop Jarrad Page from last year. Besides, the only way you're gonna make a solid O-line is to build it through the draft.

Shag
10-07-2007, 06:37 PM
You can't be serious.

Croyle's two drives have consisted of 90 percent checkdowns. He threw two deep passes down the sideline that were basically both a wing and a prayer.

ROFL ROFL ROFL

You truly are clueless. A wing and a prayer? The first long pass he threw (week two) was absolutely perfect - couldn't have been thrown any better. The second pass (today), he was on the run, and threw an on-target pass, 35 yards downfield, at full scramble - a pass Huard couldn't dream of throwing. "Wing and a prayer" my ass - that's Huard's specialty.

You claim that he's going to get hurt - BS. It's not like Huard, who makes his reads 50% slower, has taken many big hits. The pass protection is pretty decent, for the most part. Plus, watch Croyle - he's SO much calmer under pressure. He'll step up in the pocket to buy time, while actually going through his reads. He'll push the ball downfield, only checking down when necessary. He can use his feet to buy time, and actually has the ability to throw on the run. He uses the checkdown as it's intended - as a last resort. Unlike Huard, who uses the checkdown as his primary read...

You're a blind fool if you're still clamoring for Huard...

Shag
10-07-2007, 06:43 PM
Aah, today was because of prevent defense.

lmao - I was waiting for that one. You can use that excuse all you want, but it is what it is - he can't control the situation he's given. Twice, Croyle has come in to relieve an "injured" Huard. Twice, Croyle has moved the team at will. Twice, the entire offense seemed to come alive with Croyle in the huddle.

Let's not forget that Croyle drove the team to a TD today. Once you're in the red zone, there is no more "prevent" - the defense has run out of field. He completed a long pass, on the run, at the sideline - which the "prevent" is designed to prevent. He scored a TD against 7 DBs. Writing off what he did today "because of prevent defense" is incredibly short-sighted.

movinbones
10-07-2007, 06:48 PM
This thread is retarded. It has nothing to do with anyone's argument for playing Croyle.

chris
10-07-2007, 06:58 PM
lmao - I was waiting for that one. You can use that excuse all you want, but it is what it is - he can't control the situation he's given. Twice, Croyle has come in to relieve an "injured" Huard. Twice, Croyle has moved the team at will. Twice, the entire offense seemed to come alive with Croyle in the huddle.

Let's not forget that Croyle drove the team to a TD today. Once you're in the red zone, there is no more "prevent" - the defense has run out of field. He completed a long pass, on the run, at the sideline - which the "prevent" is designed to prevent. He scored a TD against 7 DBs. Writing off what he did today "because of prevent defense" is incredibly short-sighted.


Good points! i stand corrected.

keg in kc
10-07-2007, 06:59 PM
the only way you're gonna make a solid O-line is to build it through the draft.I don't necessarily disagree with you, but the all-world line we had here from '03-'05 was not built through the draft. Will Shields was the only draft pick on it, in fact. Roaf was a trade, Waters was a free agent pickup who was originally an undrafted tight end picked up by Dallas, Wiegmann was a free agent signing, and we had a revolving door at right tackle (in terms of personnel, not performance...).

That may actually be the problem now; we built a line that was probably an unbelievably lucky mix of people. We've been acting like we could do it again, make chicken soup out of...you know.

Although I think the real problem we have still boils down to 5 years of horrible drafting by Vermeil et al. While the picks were primarily on the defensive side of the ball, the fact that we missed on all those picks hurts the team at large, not just that particular unit. It means we have to fill holes on both sides of the ball in free agency, which weakens the team as a whole.

And that's really what this year amounts to: a team in the middle of rebuilding. Some pieces are in place, but we still have a way to go.

movinbones
10-07-2007, 07:08 PM
I don't necessarily disagree with you, but the all-world line we had here from '03-'05 was not built through the draft. Will Shields was the only draft pick on it, in fact. Roaf was a trade, Waters was a free agent pickup who was originally an undrafted tight end picked up by Dallas, Wiegmann was a free agent signing, and we had a revolving door at right tackle (in terms of personnel, not performance...).

That may actually be the problem now; we built a line that was probably an unbelievably lucky mix of people. We've been acting like we could do it again, make chicken soup out of...you know.

Although I think the real problem we have still boils down to 5 years of horrible drafting by Vermeil et al. While the picks were primarily on the defensive side of the ball, the fact that we missed on all those picks hurts the team at large, not just that particular unit. It means we have to fill holes on both sides of the ball in free agency, which weakens the team as a whole.

And that's really what this year amounts to: a team in the middle of rebuilding. Some pieces are in place, but we still have a way to go.

Good post.

Coach
10-07-2007, 07:57 PM
I don't necessarily disagree with you, but the all-world line we had here from '03-'05 was not built through the draft. Will Shields was the only draft pick on it, in fact. Roaf was a trade, Waters was a free agent pickup who was originally an undrafted tight end picked up by Dallas, Wiegmann was a free agent signing, and we had a revolving door at right tackle (in terms of personnel, not performance...).

That may actually be the problem now; we built a line that was probably an unbelievably lucky mix of people. We've been acting like we could do it again, make chicken soup out of...you know.

Although I think the real problem we have still boils down to 5 years of horrible drafting by Vermeil et al. While the picks were primarily on the defensive side of the ball, the fact that we missed on all those picks hurts the team at large, not just that particular unit. It means we have to fill holes on both sides of the ball in free agency, which weakens the team as a whole.

And that's really what this year amounts to: a team in the middle of rebuilding. Some pieces are in place, but we still have a way to go.

Maybe it's time to try Niswanger, Taylor and Svitek on the right side. They have young legs. Might as well see what they can do. We still have that Stollings guy IIRC as well.

Really, you can't tell how good your draft pick can be unless you give them a chance to perform on real game days. Pre-season can only do so little.