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AustinChief
06-08-2001, 10:00 AM
I just read this article... and it is EXACTLY what I was afraid of...
I think a simple five tier progressive tax with NO exemptions or loopholes is what we need to look at for the future... The Tax Code has become a joke... and G.W. and BOTH parties in the Senate are certainly not helping things...

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1101010611-128937,00.html

--Kyle
~disgusted

KCTitus
06-08-2001, 10:21 AM
This is typical tax legislation...same could have been said about Clinton's bills, Bush Sr's bill, and Reagans bills.

There's a budget bill every year. It can rescind previous law or enact new law.

The only guarantee with the signing of this budget is through 2004 and if Bush is re-elected then that window extends through 2008. This is still 2 full years prior to when the majority of actual rate cuts fully phase in.

BIG_DADDY
06-08-2001, 10:59 AM
Interesting article. We need a tax structure that is much more simple than our current one, that is for sure. Personally I am for a flat tax but that is just my prefference. I also think that estate taxation is the most ridiculouse tax there is as that money has already been taxed. You notice that the article seemed concerned about defecit spending and this tax cut putting us there. Am I the only one that notices this bias? I think we are WAY over taxed and should never under ANY circumstances end up paying more than that. That includes Federal, State, Sales, Property, Estate ect. ect. ect.

BIG DADDYS

Next business will almost certainly involve many cash transactions. :)

gh4chiefs
06-08-2001, 11:54 AM
Bid Daddy,

It scares me to read your posts sometimes because it's like you're reading my mind. I've been a proponent of a LOW flat tax with NO exemptions for years but I don't guess that will ever happen. There's just too many people buying into the class warfare nonsense. It's pretty sad to see how short sighted people can be.

BIG_DADDY
06-08-2001, 11:54 AM
Interesting article. We need a tax structure that is much more simple than our current one, that is for sure. Personally I am for a flat tax but that is just my prefference. I also think that estate taxation is the most ridiculouse tax there is as that money has already been taxed. You notice that the article seemed concerned about defecit spending and this tax cut putting us there. Am I the only one that notices this bias? I think we are WAY over taxed and should never under ANY circumstances end up paying more than that. That includes Federal, State, Sales, Property, Estate ect. ect. ect.

BIG DADDYS

Next business will almost certainly involve many cash transactions. :)

Clint in Wichita
06-08-2001, 11:59 AM
Republicans are supposed to be against high taxes...we'll see if it's true in the next 3 1/2 years.

There are MANY other taxes that could be cut. For starters, given the current price of gasoline,, Bush could prove that he gives a rat's arse by cutting gas taxes YESTERDAY!!

BIG_DADDY
06-08-2001, 12:00 PM
Sorry about the multiple posts guys.

gh4chiefs,

It's simple, straight forward, and fair. That's why it will never happen.

BIG DADDY

Besides, what would all the bureaucrats do.

:confused:

keg in kc
06-08-2001, 12:02 PM
I don't believe that class warfare is nonsense at all, there's ample evidence of it throught history running up to this very day. To ignore that fact is more short-sighted than to acknowledge its obvious existence. I can probably come up with at least 50 examples of it from my own life, although I tend to think of the experiences I've had as more of "classism" (like racism...) than "class warfare". You don't have to look far to see the wealthy receiving preferential treatment in areas where equality should reign, like in the legal system. Heck, if I had as many problems with drugs as some folks, say maybe Robert Downy, Jr., I'd be locked up for the rest of my life.

That said, I'm all for a flat tax, as well, for most of the stated reasons....

Clint in Wichita
06-08-2001, 12:02 PM
My wife works for an accounting firm. They all say a flat tax won't work, but that't probably because there's a good chance they'd be unemployed if it ever happens.

Clint in Wichita
06-08-2001, 12:03 PM
Keg,



O.J.



'Nuff said.

bkkcoh
06-08-2001, 12:04 PM
Clint,

I keep hearing that arguement all the time. If their was a flat tax rate, that would decrease the need for a lot of CPA's. But wouldn't that free up a lot investment oppurtunities??

KCTitus
06-08-2001, 12:06 PM
Hey, Clint...it took 149 days to lower your taxes and you'll actually be getting a check. How's that for serious?

Dems with control of the senate will do their best to stifle any further cuts in taxes.

Clint in Wichita
06-08-2001, 12:08 PM
Believe me, I couldn't care less about the CPAs job future. The CPAs I know of charge about $125 dollars per hour :eek:. If they haven't saved enough for retirement, let 'em drive a forklift at Home Depot or something.

bkkcoh
06-08-2001, 12:09 PM
Remember, it is typically the Democraps that nix the tax cuts. The House republicans have introduced many tax-cut bills.

Clint in Wichita
06-08-2001, 12:10 PM
I could be mistaken, but I believe Bush could (and should've weeks ago) lower gas taxes without congressional approval.

AustinChief
06-08-2001, 12:11 PM
Sorry guys... but I am TOTALLY against a flat tax.... I agree that it is more "fair" in many ways... but it just doesn't generate enough revenue without putting a HUGE burden on the middle and lower classes... Right now we have 5 tiers... I would look at possibly reducing this to three tiers at 15% / 25% / 35%. Get rid of ALL exemptions and also get rid of all the "double" taxes... capital gains, estate tax, luxury tax, etc...

Then more importantly... set a goal for reducing the percentages and still keeping the budget balanced... and force the govt. to make some huge cuts.

--Kyle

Clint in Wichita
06-08-2001, 12:13 PM
I still say these checks being mailed out are "crumbs" being fed to American people to help soften the blow of future arse-rammings.

With that said, I'll gladly spend mine...I just don't feel that this is a result of Bush's concern for the American people.

Clint in Wichita
06-08-2001, 12:15 PM
The best way to end up with a fair tax system is this:

Make Congessmen pay taxes just like everyone else. A couple years of that and they'd be so pissed off that we'd get a better system PRONTO.

KCTitus
06-08-2001, 12:20 PM
Clint, that makes me laugh. Love the spin! Dont even try to be objective about it.

How soon we forget about Clinton's retroactive tax increases...cost me more than 1000 in additional taxes that year out of pocket because withholdings werent adjusted.

Congress people pay taxes.

KCTitus
06-08-2001, 12:21 PM
btw...congress has to repeal the federal gas tax.

AustinChief
06-08-2001, 12:23 PM
Oh and just to depress everyone further.... I would RAISE taxes or AT THE VERY LEAST keep them the same until the national debt is paid off... The Government will pay $362 Billion on interest toward the national debt this year!!! I think that is somewhere between 1/4 and 1/5 of our TOTAL expenditures this year.


Politicians cutting taxes seems EXTREMELY irresponsible and short-sited... If we paid off a good portion of the debt (I know that it's always good to have a little national debt) then we could easilt save AT LEAST $300 Billion... I think that could significantly help in lowering EVERYONES taxes.

--Kyle
(Against ANY tax cut until the debt is mostly paid.)

gh4chiefs
06-08-2001, 12:26 PM
Does anybody have figures available for what our gross national income is? I'm not talking about taxable income, I'm talking about what we all make on a gross basis. I don't know if that figure is available or not, and I'm talking all income, all wages, interest, net sales, capitol gains etc. It would be interesting to see what flat rate it would take given that level of income to produce revenue equal to today's Federal budget.

keg in kc
06-08-2001, 12:27 PM
No, other Kyle, first we should request that other countries pay us their outstanding, uncollected and largely-forgotten war debts as well as the interest accrued and see how much of our debt is paid off with that. We've footed the bill for too much for too long as far as I'm concerned...

KCTitus
06-08-2001, 12:29 PM
Kyle, that is depressing. The bill just enacted into law saves 1.3-1.8 Trillion over the next 10 years. During that time, the federal govt will spend almost 30 Trillion dollars.

1 out of 30 or 3 cents for ever federal dollar spent is what the cut represents.

Why should higher taxes pay for the debt, why dont we actually REDUCE the federal budget. This year it's going to 1.8 Trillion and will increase every year by an average of 8%. PATHETIC! The damn budget should be going down not up.

AustinChief
06-08-2001, 12:35 PM
Keg, I agree... but we both know that it will never happen.

It's time that we boned up and took responsibility for all of our parents mistakes and bad budgeting... yeah it sucks... but are WE responsible enough to suffer a little (and I STRESS a little... try living with taxes like they have in Europe ...) and set things right for our later years and future generations?

It makes me sick to think that we will continue to bury our heads in the sand and ignore the future ramifications of being so irresponsible.

One of my favourite politicians has always been Bod Dole... because during the Reagan years of increased spending and decreased taxes (for the wealthy)... Bob Dole voted AGAINST most spending increases AND he voted AGAINST most tax cuts!!!

I would be willing to bet that Mr. Dole's checkbook was ALWAYS in balance!

--Kyle

keg in kc
06-08-2001, 12:37 PM
Yep, other Kyle. Gotta dream though...

ck_IN
06-08-2001, 12:54 PM
First of all retiring outstanding debt isn't as easy as making an extra mortgage payment. That debt is held in bonds. Bonds have a call date. The bond can't be retired before the call date. Also a premium is usually needed when a bond is called at the call date. Retiring debt could actually wind up costing more.

Also does anyone actually trust the politicians to use the excess money to retire debt? I certainly don't. Regardless of party, if politicians have access to money they'll spend it. And don't bring up accounting gimicks like 'lock boxes'. Spending caps have been in place for years and have yearly been ignored.

My only problems with the tax cut is that A. It's too small. Double the thing and then we can legitmately call it a tax cut in the finest Reagan tradition. And B. it's backloaded. The IRA limits won't be fully phased in untill 2006. Front load it and get the money out of D.C NOW.

The less money in D.C. the better we all are.

gh4chiefs
06-08-2001, 12:55 PM
Uh guys,

Surely you're not suggesting we pay higher taxes? PLEASE tell me you're just trying to start a good debate and you really don't believe that.

gh4chiefs
06-08-2001, 12:56 PM
Thank God for your post ck, some of these post were SERIOUSLY depressing me.

Clint in Wichita
06-08-2001, 01:00 PM
I like tax cuts, but the govt. should decrease spending with each cut.

Reagan may have cut taxes, but he increased spending dramatically.

AustinChief
06-08-2001, 01:01 PM
CK_IN,

Agreed. The current tax cut is a joke...

As for paying down the debt... it would be difficult and I agree that politicians can't be trusted to actually DO IT... which is why everyone should elect me EMPEROR and I'll get the job done ;)

gh4chiefs,

NO.. I'm just saying that we need to look at deeper cuts and paying down debt BEFORE we start looking to cut taxes...

Once you elect me emperor, I'll cut spending AND lower taxes...
:D

--Kyle
(starting his campaign early...)

HC_Chief
06-08-2001, 02:16 PM
17% FLAT TAX
1% Sales Tax on all goods and services

Lightning Rod
06-08-2001, 02:28 PM
How about a 15% sales tax on everything except food and medical expenses. 5% to Fed 5% to state and 5% to local. An additional 3% automatically deducted into a retirement plan controlled by you. No other personal taxes.


Rod- ready to be king.

Lightning Rod
06-08-2001, 02:32 PM
OK
1 more thing legalize everything. End the war on drugs. Put a 5% sin tax on booze drugs etc. That $ to be used for treatment and prevention programs.

HC_Chief
06-08-2001, 02:37 PM
I like that idea :)

If you're old enough to serve & die, you're old enough to have a drink - or doobie - or whatever the hell else you want... so long as you do not infringe on another person's rights and do NOT operate machinery of any kind.

Lightning Rod
06-08-2001, 02:44 PM
Great minds HC,

I would be very interesting to know what the "True" total cost of the war on drugs is. The cost of investigating, trying, incarcerating, lost income and taxes, crime from people stealing to pay artificially high prices to get their buzz on. It must be Billions a year.

HC_Chief
06-08-2001, 02:49 PM
more like <i>trillions</i>!

Think about it: the DEA, FBI, ATF(that's THREE beuraucratic agencies!) - along with covert 'black' ops, and every police force... plus the endless stream of drug related cases clogging up our court system, as well as the overcrowding of our prisons with drug offenders.

A LOT of money is being thrown on the fire as a result of a 'war' on drugs - a war that is so one-sided; so laughably impossible to win.

DanT
06-08-2001, 02:50 PM
Originally posted by gh4chiefs
Does anybody have figures available for what our gross national income is? I'm not talking about taxable income, I'm talking about what we all make on a gross basis. I don't know if that figure is available or not, and I'm talking all income, all wages, interest, net sales, capitol gains etc. It would be interesting to see what flat rate it would take given that level of income to produce revenue equal to today's Federal budget.

gh4chiefs,
Start with the Commerce Department's Bureau of Economic Analysis's "National Income and Product Accounts Table":

http://www.bea.doc.gov/bea/dn/nipaweb/TableViewFixed.asp?SelectedTable=27&FirstYear=2000&LastYear=2001&Freq=Qtr

That's one of the "Frequently Requested" tables you can get to from this page on their website. The others are listed below:

http://www.bea.doc.gov/bea/dn/nipaweb/PopularTables.asp

Table S.1. Summary of Percent Change From Preceding Period in Real Gross Domestic Product and Related Measures
Table S.2. Summary of Contributions to Percent Change in Real Gross Domestic Product
Table 1.1. Gross Domestic Product
Table 1.2. Real Gross Domestic Product
Table 1.9. Relation of Gross Domestic Product, Gross National Product, Net National Product, National Income, and Personal Income
Table 1.14. National Income by Type of Income
Table 2.1. Personal Income and Its Disposition
Table 3.1. Government Current Receipts and Expenditures
Table 4.1. Foreign Transactions in the National Income and Product Accounts
Table 7.1. Quantity and Price Indexes for Gross Domestic Product

gh4chiefs
06-08-2001, 02:56 PM
Thanks DanT. I'll try to work on that this weekend.

AustinChiefs,

Thanks for clarifying your position. When someone mentions the possibility of raising taxes, I just become totally insane as I believe we are WAY over taxed.

I think people don't really realize just how taxed we are. We focus on income taxes but there are way more than that. Sales taxes, excise taxes (look at your phone bill for example) and property taxes (the most punishing tax of all). It's just ridiculous that citizens of a supposedly free country are robbed of so much of their income by the various levels of government.

Lightning Rod
06-08-2001, 03:12 PM
So we could just let people make up their own minds on what they wanna do and save trillions. Hummmm, ok take 1% of the 5% sin tax and hire Taxis to troll all the bars. We could probably have one on station at every damn bar in the county. That might just save a few lives.

HC- When I'm king I'll have a cushy job waiting for ya. Like official liaison to the nudie bar industry, quality control that sort of thing. :)

HC_Chief
06-08-2001, 03:20 PM
You are too kind! :)

Oxford
06-08-2001, 03:44 PM
Clint -- as usual you're mistaken. In our system of government, Congress and only Congress has the power to tax and allocate monies from the US Treasury. Therefore, no president increases spending, Congress does. Presidents can veto (subject to a override of course) any measure passing the House and Senate and that includes the budget. But then of course you'd be subjected to the "shutting down the government, you're all gonna die" rhetoric. In the 1980's congress spent $1.67 for every $1 in revenue, but in the decade of the 80's we doubled revenues to the US Treasury, even with a tax cut. The more you tax something, the less you get of it (see Tobacco tax receipts and the state of New York).

oleman47
06-08-2001, 04:58 PM
You can blame Greenspan. He flipped on wanting to pay down the debt to satisfy Bush and now we have this monster mirage. The actual new budget shows the debt will increase by 1.3 trillion and when you add in all expenses above 4% increase, add that to the debt. Adjusting the minimum tax will cost another 400 billion. I do not yet see how the so-called lock boxes operate but a preliminary look indicates that is a fraud. Since Bush has programs that may cost an additonal trillion and his Social Security plan would cost another trillion and Demos have at least a trillion in social programs that must be tweaked for population growth, it is easy to see this budget producing far greater deficits than the previous king, Reagan.

The expansion of personal and business debt is far above any semblance of sanity as is the growth in money supply by the Fed. Since we already have the Reagan national debt, the longer range is much like what Japan is going through. However, the American disparity between rich and poor may bring on solutions that will make the rich wish they would have forgone some of these perks.

We came to a fork in the road and ate the fork.

Clint in Wichita
06-08-2001, 05:00 PM
I told you I might be mistaken.

Bush hasn't even considered lowering the gas tax, regardless of what is required to make it happen.

Clint in Wichita
06-08-2001, 05:02 PM
Oxford,

Maybe your posts will put an end to the "Clinton raised taxes" b.s. on this BB.

After all, Congress was controlled by the Republicans while Clinton was supposedly raising taxes.

sd4chiefs
06-08-2001, 06:57 PM
How about this idea? Get rid of the income tax and replace it with a national sales tax. Say 10 to 15 percent? Everyone at the IRS would be out of a job. Companys would not have to keep track of the income tax. We would not have to pay someone to do our taxes. Also, people who make a lot of money spend a lot of money so they would be paying most of the taxes.

sun
06-08-2001, 10:14 PM
FOR ANYONE WHO DOESNT LIKE THIS TAX CUT:

DONT CASH YOURE UPCOMING REBATE CHECK, that's right, just tear it up and throw it away........better yet, mail it back to your favorite democratic congressperson and tell them that you want to do your part so the country wont spiral down the tubes, because you certainly dont deserve to have more of your own money under your own personal control.......

Logical
06-08-2001, 11:10 PM
Folks,

A little bit of information, there will never be a tax change that eliminates the home mortgage interest deduction. It would first be met by the most massive resistance one can imagine, homeowners in every single tax bracket, every lending institution in the country, every building contractor in the country, and you can go on and on from there.

Second it would cause a monstrous devaluation of real estate, because without the deductions people would not put themselves into this kind of debt. The phenomen of buyers moving up would dry up. In short the repeal of the mortgage interest deduction would bring on a full scale depression (not a recession but a true depression.

So the destruction of the tax code to a true flat tax or even a multi-rate simplified tax system is dead before it is ever proposed.

And folks that is a good thing.

gh4chiefs
06-09-2001, 07:17 AM
Clint,

In response to post #44. For the record, the Clinton tax increase, including the additional gas tax, was passed in 1993. Both houses were controlled by Democratic majorities at that time. The GOP did not take control of Congress until January of 1995, following the fall election of 94.

The tax increase was his idea and Congress passed it. It passed the House without a single GOP vote.

I agree with some of things you're saying Clint, like they need to immediately repeal the gas tax. But let's at least be honest about how we got it in the first place.

And I agree that this tax cut is more of joke than anything. But again let's be honest about who it was that fought this tooth and nail and didn't want us to get any tax cut. We all know who was on TV crying and moaning and bitching about how this was "too big of a tax cut." And it wasn't the GOP.