View Full Version : Uh oh, Dr Z ABSOLUTELY RIPS APART Trent Green (and BBQ!)...

06-14-2001, 11:00 AM
From the "I need some controversial statement ripping KC to generate discussion" department. Where was this comment on Trent Green when I needed it before the draft to discuss with Lamb fans why a first rounder is too much compensation? :)

From Tim of K.C.: "Suddenly all you beat writers seem to think that Elvis Grbac is the best thing to happen to the Ravens ... " I don't like to be addressed as "all you ... " How'd you like it if I said, "Well, all you BBQ eaters ... ?" Personally, I think BBQ is overrated. Take away sugar, and your barbecue would go poof. We seem to be straying. Oh yes, another thing. I'm not a beat writer. I'm a ... a ... (what am I, Linda?) "A beat-nik," she says. See what happens when you get started on an idiot topic? I haven't written a word about Elvis in Baltimore. I will now. Here it is: IMPROVEMENT . Trent Green in K.C.? He was kind of exposed when he had to carry the load in St. Louis. Not able to make the quick decisions or quick deliveries that Warner did. Who can? But still, a bit of the luster is off.


keg in kc
06-14-2001, 11:09 AM
If that's absolutely ripping apart Trent Green, then I must have drawn and quartered the poor guy and sent his parts to the four corners of the globe prior to the trade.

If that's the best "Dr. Zzzzzzz" can do, he needs to find another line of work.

We'll see what happens in September. I'll just say for now that I like the Green signing a whole lot better than I thought I would, though I remain a skeptic until I see the final product on the field.

06-14-2001, 11:11 AM
Well, he does have a pont in regards to Grbac in Baltimore. He <i>is</i> an improvement over Dilfer.

His BBQ take was subjective and weak at best. "Take away sugar and..."? Apparently knows nothing of BBQ sauce.

He was kind of exposed when he had to carry the load in St. Louis. Not able to make the quick decisions or quick deliveries that Warner did. Who can? But still, a bit of the luster is off. This shows his complete ignorance. Trent Green performaed <i>brilliantly</i> in place of Warner last season. The numbers prove it. No QB performed better in the NFC - INCLUDING Warner.


06-14-2001, 11:12 AM
Sorry about the title, I was just trying to sensationalize it to seem like more than it actually is... :)

06-14-2001, 11:12 AM
I can handle criticism of Green, but BBQ? Dr Z is nothing but a damn communist! He obviously has not eaten at Arthur Bryants. I gaurentdamntee you will never hear Peter King badmouth BBQ. This proves a theory I have...fat guys love BBQ.

keg in kc
06-14-2001, 11:14 AM
You may be right, Mr. Blond. I'm a fat guy and I certainly love BBQ. ;)

06-14-2001, 11:19 AM
That theory is just based on me. I also think that fat guys love to watch tennis only when Anna plays!

06-14-2001, 11:20 AM
a skinny communist who's a closet donkey-fan.

06-14-2001, 12:01 PM
I dunno, 16 TD's to 5 INT's vs Warner's 20 TD's to 18 INT's seem to indicate to me Warner had more problems finding the right guy. Also it should be noted that over a 4 game stretch he played without Faulk in 2 of them, and overall in those 4 games Faulk had just 17 rushes for 60 yards, so teams were not worried about the ground game. Also in those 4 games he played against Carolina, New York, Washington, and New Orleans, all of which had pretty good defenses.

His record wasn't helped by the defense...

06-14-2001, 01:11 PM
"He was kind of exposed when he had to carry the load in St. Louis. Not able to make the quick decisions or quick deliveries that Warner did. Who can? But still, a bit of the luster is off."(in regards to Trent Green -obviously-)

I find your ignorance in this statement quite disturbing. For a professional 'beat writer' ;), you sure do jump to quick conclusions w/o doing any research first. FYI: Green attempted 240 passes in 8 games last season(5 starts). He completed 145 for ~61% comp and nearly 2100 yards. Passed for 16TDs, rushed for 1; threw a mere 5 INTs. That equates to a 102 QB rating. Brian Griese was the only QB in the LEAGUE to surpass that: 103 rating. (Warner had a 98 rating)

Perhaps you'd like some tasty Arthur Bryants' BBQ sauce -fresh from lovely KC- to smother your foot; next time you insert it, it won't leave such a sour taste.

Punisher - Green completed 61% of his passes & had a 3 to 1 TD/INT ratio. 102 rating was second in the NFL. What, exactly, does it take to impress you?

Clint in Wichita
06-14-2001, 01:21 PM
I wouldn't be so quick to assume that Grbac is an upgrade over Dilfer.

Had KC signed Dilfer instead of Green, I'd still be happier than I was with Hrbac at the helm.

06-14-2001, 02:27 PM
I think it is interesting how vocal people are now that Green is on the "right" team. At the time that we were negotiating a trade, no one was bragging about Green and his performace last season.

The arguments being made here today were the same one's StLouis management were using to justify a #1 and #3 pick.

Don't get me wrong, I think we are headed in the right direction; I am just amused.

06-14-2001, 02:28 PM
actually pappa, I was all over the Green wagon back in those days. I can bring the old topics back up if you wanna see 'em ;)

06-14-2001, 03:04 PM
I too wanted Green from the start...as a matter of fact, before Grfu*k left I kind of had the feeling we'd end up with Green even if Gras*hole wanted to stay...

I loved Grbitch but I like Green better. He seems much smarter, but then again, I could say the same thing about a Rotwieller when compared to Grcoc*sucker....can you tell I don't like Gr**** anymore?

As far as the BBQ comment goes...where is this guy based?...probably in some eastern seaboard town where there version of BBQ is a pan fried steak with spicy Hunts Ketchup on it....talk about my QB, my team, my mother but don't mess with my BBQ...fat man working on being thin but will never give up my BBQ...:D

Baby Lee
06-14-2001, 05:05 PM
a skinny communist who's a closet donkey-fan.

You ever seen the 'closet donkey fan' shows in Tijuana?

06-14-2001, 05:15 PM
It might have already been said but not only did Green's stint as the starter primarly consist of no Faulk and gimpy Faulk which is a monsterous difference when comparing Greens Won/Loss record to Warners but you guys don't have to stretch your memories too hard to look back to the Scrams/Chiefs game last year....With a healthy Faulk the 2nd half Scrams with Green at the helm played a hell of a lot better than the 1st half Scrams with Warner behind center...

06-14-2001, 05:42 PM
No...and I don't want to hear about it!:eek:

Chiefs Pantalones
06-14-2001, 07:18 PM

Thats classic! Will you give notice to us when or if Dr. Z responds?


is interested

06-14-2001, 08:26 PM
I remember the days/weeks prior to the Green trade, and I can tell you that HC is being straight when he says he was on that wagon. I also remember thinking at the time, "How much is Green paying this guy?";)
I'd also be interested in Dr Z's response.

06-14-2001, 10:54 PM

I admit, I was totally against the proposed 1 and 3 for Green. Luckily, we got Horne and a 5th back and got to keep the 3rd, so decent job there Carl. Yeah I admit I was using the arguments about sacks and 2-3 record and unproven and knee when talking to Lambs fans about compensation. It's sort of like arbitration is in baseball. You may have a player you like, but you want to pay them as little salary as you have to, so you go in front of an arbitrator and rip them with every bad thing you can find. But once he's signed you sing his praises. Same thing here. During negotiations, I rip. Once he's on my side, the grass is greener, pun intended. At least until he ends up going 6-10 and getting exposed...

06-15-2001, 07:45 AM
Cody - will do! :)

06-15-2001, 07:54 AM
Let's also face the fact that Dr. Z, while a fairly respected sports reporter/columnist has not exacly been a KC Chiefs fan. Going back over the past few years, he's picked us more often to lose than to win when he even mentions us in his column.

Like every other columnist, he has his favorites, plus his flavor of the day. Unless the Chiefs get on a run like the Ravens did last year, (and he didn't get on their bandwagon until the last possible minute), he's likely to ignore us at best.

I see him and a number of the "analysts" hired by CNN/SI as the Muhammed Ali's of reporting. Half of the readers hate him, half of the readers love him, but everyone pays to see him. His style is designed to be combattive, it attacts readers.

But I don't take him seriously.

06-15-2001, 11:25 AM
Tell me how you really feel about Girlsac!

HC: Great response to a clearly un-American media shill.

Only sugar in BBQ sauce?!?!? We've got to educate the unknowledgeable masses. Hell, it ain't even sugar in some of yer sweeter sauces, it's molasses!

06-15-2001, 04:25 PM
Green was sacked 24 times in those 5 starts.
Can't blame that on the Lambs' weak D.

I believe Green will be a net improvement over Elvis IF he stays healthy. Right now, I see Green out for at least 5-9 games. The idea of leaving him in the backfield without a blocking back scares me. And it might not be his knee this time. He will be playing in the AFC West and they come after the QBs here. Here's hoping he goes all 16 games, the pro bowl and the post season!

And here's hoping Bubby retires before camp is over!


06-15-2001, 04:39 PM
So you're saying that Dr Z is really Whitlock?

06-15-2001, 05:12 PM
Yeah Johnny, we <i>all</i> know how incredibly mobile Grbac was. That Elway-esque mobility must have been why he was sacked only 35 times last season. Has nothing at all to do with the OL play in KC. Nope, sure doesn't...

06-15-2001, 06:03 PM
HC Chief:

Actually, Grbac was dropped only 29x in an incredible 540 attempts. Yes, the Chiefs OL play was stellar in pass protect, but the Chiefs didn't leave their QB in the pocket with no blocking back very much either. Bottom line: KC's vertical game (5th best in NFL in passing) was largely the product of Grbac's rapid 7-step drops. He got back in the pocket quickly, deep and saw the field. Unfortunately, Green will be launching from a lot of 3-5 step drops if we run the Martzyball scheme and while that will produce some big #s, it is also bound to produce some big hits on Green.

Complete football idiot

06-15-2001, 06:18 PM

What's with the complete victim tag line. Doubt many people actually feel that way. I doubt if it is viewed as self-deprecating humor to most, and likely as self-pity to some.

I would drop it, and return to BB Chaplain. You did not ask for my advice so ignore it if you wish.

Your BB cyberfriend,


06-15-2001, 09:08 PM
You are one of my favorite personalities and most admired people on the BB. Your advice, while often neglected to my own detriment, is always welcomed.

I can't be the BB Chaplain here. On the 'big' BB at kansascity.com I actually fielded quite a few opportunities to excercise chaplain-type ministry. I have never felt that welcomed or wanted here. This is more a members-only oriented site that has many strengths, but needs me like a hole a in the head. I am a complete football idiot inasmuch as I do not research obscure minutia about the team in order to generate discussion, but rather reflect on my own bombastic opinions as the basis of cyber-banter. No intent to attract pity.

I change my tag more often than my drawers...socks...oh, nevermind!

Star BB Chaplain

06-16-2001, 12:30 AM

I like the StarBB Chaplain better as a sig line.

I think you are being hard on yourself. You just picked an odd time to go negative. While almost all of us are embracing change with a view of renewed optimism, you chose to go the opposite way. I know from past experience you can get down and have had to clean up my act when I brought you down in the past. Now you are down because the rest of us are optimistic about something you want to feel negative about.

Unfortunately there is little I can do to lift your spirits or morale, but I can tell you and I think most of the people on this BB would tell you that you are welcome here and when the season starts and the Chiefs lover we all know returns you will fit in great.

Johnny the Training camp starts in just a little over a month, strap on that old true optimism, start looking for all the good things, sweep the worries about the bad under the rug until we have played a couple of regular season games and you will be on top of the world.

Trust Me ;) :D

06-16-2001, 02:07 AM

I have to agree with logic(al) on this one. It always amazed me how our football opinions could be so alike it was scarry, and our religous ideas so completely opposed...

If we can argue how to kill Time-bomb Timmy, Bush Jr's pro's and con's and actually cheering for the Raiders on ANY occasion.....well..........i guess we can tolerate yer' "chaplain's duties."....:D

06-16-2001, 12:17 PM
I am solidly behind the team. I still feel somewhat violated by the wholesale import of another team's cache of talent/braintrust, as I am sure that many 'Skins fans feel the same way about the Chiefization of the Redskins.

I am reading Kurt Warner's bio trying to get a feel for Vermiel's leadership style. He comes off in Warner's book as a Parcells-type with a weepy, emotional side. That's all well and good, but even Warner discreetly alludes to how close Vermiel came in '98 to completely losing his players TEN times worse than what Gunther has been accused of. This is a winning franchise however, unlike Philly and StL, and Chiefs fans are in no mood for a 3-year rebuild program. What puzzles me is that people outside our little circle of fans are a lot kinder to Gunther, blame the Chiefs '00 mistakes more on the players than we do, and do not see an instant upgrade with the new ringed staff. That has me wondering if there hasn't been some wierd cosmic shift that has made blind homers out of many of the 'objective' Chiefs fans and made us homers at least neo-objective.

Brad: Let's get together and gang up on the Raiders and Donx in the spirit of brotherly love.

Star BB Chaplain


06-16-2001, 01:32 PM
Gonna have to jump onboard with Jim's logic. I've tried to stay out of all the "bickering" and such, but Jim does have a point or 2 KCJ. I too was a supporter of all that was Marty ect... But time moves forward, as do me beloved CHIEFS. I will always have a soft spot for Marty but I'm on my CHIEFS bandwagon, and will always remain there. So hope on, and hang on for a FUN ride KCJ.

06-16-2001, 01:41 PM
The fun is going to be all mine when the Chiefs look more like the '95-97 model or even the '99 version by December.

Stay tuned!


06-16-2001, 03:22 PM
KCJ: Yer not the only one that is wary of the complete Ram -ification of the Chiefs. I'm not sure I like it when my team has such sweeping changes, no matter where they come from. It just seems a little wierder when it's the cross-state team. Actually, I'm fairly certain I don't like it when my team goes through a major shakeup like my team just went through.

I will remain cautiously optimistic, just like I usually be.

06-16-2001, 05:15 PM
Somebody will most certainly accuse me of posting under the log in name of red head...

shoot me an email at familypeople@juno.com


06-16-2001, 09:55 PM
Why do you guys keep calling our new offense "Martzyball". Guys, it's not as if the Rams invented their offense. The Chargers version of Air Coryell (sp) will be a more similiar offense to compare ours to. The Chargers used their TE ALOT. And I can all but guarantee you Gonzalez will be a focal point next year as well.

I watched our former offense ALMOST get us there for a decade. Times have changed guys. Players are faster and quality CB's are hard to come by. I can't think of a better time to change our offensive scheme.

Hang in there KCJ.... I have a gut feeling you'll warm up to out new offense once Vermeil gets the men on the field he prefers.

06-16-2001, 09:56 PM
How many posts do I need to get this silly "lurker" title from beneath my name? I read this site nearly every day. But, there's not much to talk about during the offseason.

06-16-2001, 10:12 PM
It takes about 30 posts.
As for the "MartzyBall" tag, no amount of reason is going to sway Johnny from using another name. He just wants to see anything that's not Martyball as evil, and this offense, as far as he's concrned was devised by the evil, antiMarty, Martz.

06-16-2001, 10:57 PM

If you change your profile I believe you can put any words you want where Lurker now exists.

See I just changed mine to say Happy Dads Day

You edit under Custom User Text:

There is no doubt you can do it if you are a regular.

06-16-2001, 11:01 PM
I could be wrong about this, but I believe you have to have 100 posts before you can make that kind of change.

Dave Lane
06-17-2001, 01:25 PM
My god (sorry KCJ) what an improvement this team has undergone since last year. It's like someone opened up a Xmas present early for me. Gunther (who I actually liked) is gone, done in by his pitiful staff, the three stooges are dead (I feel like singing here!!), We have a RB that has rushed for 1,000 yards, DV thinks he wants to give TR the ball, Grbaby is gone and I think TG is a definate upgrade. We have a KR in Horne, Minnis shows promise. Chester the Molester and cry-baby Hasty are gone this is a team that shows MAJOR promise.

KCJ I remember your prediction last year as the reigning RBBC guru that RBBC would put the Chiefs at #3 or #4 in the league in rushing and we would grind it out for 2,000 ++ yards. Wrong! This team may not go much better than 8-8 this year but it is on its way. This is a tough division or I would predict 10-6. I like what DV is doing to this team and I think we are 3 years from a SB run. We have to have some luck between now and then (injuries etc.) but I LOVE a team that attacks on Offense and Defense.

Marty will NEVER win a SB unless he changes his philosophy on offense. Conservative offense will never win a SB unless your defense is the 00 Ravens or the 85 Bears. It's hard to win with defense but not with balance and that means including a attacking opportunistic offense just like a normal Chief defense.

Look for the good things this is going to be very cool! I'm getting excited just thinking about it!!

Homer Dave

PS NO one hates St. Louis more than I do, but I feel like we are ripping the guts of what made them successful away from them (which gives me a big smile :D ) This is just plain smart business!

06-17-2001, 01:44 PM
First of all, it is true that I predicted a 2,000 yd rushing season for the '00 Chiefs but that was based on Tony Richardson being the starting tailback all year. NOWHERE have I EVER averred that RBbC was a superior philosophy to having a fulltime HB/FB. I simply defended the results. You cannot reasonably argue against the results: four top 5 rushing performances from 1995-99. It wasn't my fault that Donnell Bennett got hurt and that Gun decided to move TR back to FB! It wasn't my fault that the Chiefs 'discovered' that they had the NFL's 5th passing offense and 8th best offense overall.

Martzyball: investing everything you have on offense and putting 11 warm bodies on the field on defense. It depends a lot on carpet, indoor non-weather conditions and speed. How else can you explain Martz putting the most potent offense in NFL history on the field and losing 6 games. When I invoke the pejorative 'Martzyball' I am using humor as a play on words (Martyball) and using sarcasm to point out the lopsided emphasis that Dick Vermiel SEEMS to have put on offense with the Chiefs.

1. I NEVER have praised RBbC as a CONCEPT: only lauded its legitimate achievments.
2. I LIKE Trent Green (though not the way he was brought to KC) and I think Tony Horne is awesome. I think Peter Guinta will have his hands full.
3. I am NOT a Redskins fan, though I wish them every success in the world due to the Chiefization of their squad.
4. I will eat TONS of crow if the Chiefs finish above .500 next year.
And I'll like it!


Dave Lane
06-17-2001, 06:33 PM

I don't remember you ever pushing the concept of RBBC as superior, I think we all agree that a 2,000 tailback would be vastly superior to RBBC but you felt we could plug in anyone and get 2,000++ out of them. I argued for Dillon last year because it was the best option available. I would have traded Sly in minute for Dillon but that is MHO.

It think your statement about the misuse or TR speaks volumes. I liked Gun but damn it he surrounded himself with the worst cast of assistants possibly ever assembled. We were a hammer them, grind it out beat them in the 4th quarter team, no thats a throw it ever down pass happy team, no thats a we're not sure team. The philosophy changed from game to game and sometimes series to series for no apparent reason. There was no continuity to our play and in the end it lost the players.

I liked Marty and I liked Gun but its an experiment that didn't work. They had their chance, now its time to move on and embrace all things from the new Chiefs. "For all things there is a reason and a season under the sun" join the new age Chiefs and lets watch a real Pro team of assistants get us to the promised land!

As a CEO of a pre-public company I'll tell you the number one things investors and Venture Capitalists look for is the management team. I think we have the best staff out there. Who would you trade staffs with??

06-18-2001, 12:11 PM

First of all, let me agree with some others that the self-pity diatribe is not becoming of a man of your stature...

Get over Gun...I'm a die-hard through and through, but even I could tell that Gun couldn't hack it as an HC...and he surrounded himself with quite possibly THE WORST staff in the history of football.

Yes, the players are the guys on the field, but when the plays being called were so bad, it really ISN'T their fault. For all the lamenting you do about our defense, it's GUNTHER, not Vermeil, that put our glorious Chiefs' D in the gutter.

You should pay closer attention to Vermeil, he hasn't abandoned the defense, he knows how important it is to fix what is broken...

06-18-2001, 01:06 PM
as I am sure that many 'Skins fans feel the same way about the Chiefization of the Redskins. - This couldnt be further from the truth.

Most Skins fans are embracing the new regime with tempered optimism. For those that may not know, Donnell Bennett will be replacing the released Centers at FB. He will NOT be a RB. Lockett is going to be fighting for a starting WR spot.

There has been no discussion about the 'wholesale import' of another 'scheme'.

The biggest story as of late has been whether or not Marty will release Deion. They wont because they cannot afford the cap hit.

06-19-2001, 07:00 AM

Gunter had "the worst staff in the history of the NFL..."

If they were so rotten, how come most of them found other jobs in the NFL?? Good ol boy network? Maybe. But as I said many, many times, you must have the talent. You cant win week in and week out by outsmarting/out hustling other teams. The Chiefs simply were outclassed most of the year in terms of talent. Thats not entirely the fault of the coaching staff. Most of the responsibility falls on the shoulders of the GM. Dont get me wrong, Gunter was in way over his head. He was the 2nd lowest paid head coach. Peterson got what he paid for.

Until the Chiefs get talent on both sides of the ball, you will continue to be confused and frustrated with your coaching staff.
The core problem with the Chiefs has and will continue to be the guy acquiring all these non-talented players/coaches.

06-19-2001, 07:45 AM

You really have to ask? How do guys with long histories of failure continuously get coaching jobs every day? You answered your own question. I mean look where Jimmy Raye and Kurt got jobs -- with Marty.

The problem with last year's team WASN'T talent. Gunther's little "I'm quitting" thing after the FIRST GAME of the year set the tone.

We lost the Indy game due to poor playcalling on offense, and Grbac's interception. We lost the Tennessee game ONLY because of poor defensive playcalling. Combine that with Gunther's "I just need to get into more of the meetings and put my stamp on things" rants, and you have a team that lost all will to succeed.

Last year was 90% because of GUNTHER.

09-12-2002, 12:43 AM

Just to compare.....

Ultra Peanut
09-12-2002, 02:36 AM
He can bash Green all he wants, but to say BBQ is overrated is a TOTALLY REPREHENSIBLE act. I should beat him to a bloody pulp with some ribs.

09-12-2002, 08:22 AM
Geeez. Take a look at the Rams since DV has left....Martz's ego has trickled down....They couldn't score against the Chiefs in preseason. And could barely score against the Donx. And the Rams have all the talent in the world. go for it on fourth and ten...? HAHA

DV, on the other hand, is about character and discipline....Dick has transformed this team in a huge way, in a year. Possibly the best Oline out there. Plus PH, TR, TG, WR, JM, EK. I can clearly see that DV was a big part of the Rams success, and has brought that to KC.

This season will prove the above statemnts.

09-12-2002, 08:31 AM
BBQ overrated??

Them's fightin' words.

09-12-2002, 08:45 AM
What Stevieray said . Martz's this time next year will be known as the putz that broke the lambs back:)