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DaWolf
06-20-2001, 10:14 PM
"It was exciting to see," Vermiel said. "He understands so well where to go with the ball. The decisions are made so quickly, and all of a sudden we're moving the chains."

Vermeil wasn't alone in his enthusiasm. For the players, Wednesday offered an opportunity to see their new quarterback at work.

"I was looking at him today and saying, `Man, he's good, he's a good player,' " tight end Tony Gonzalez said.

"You talk about a guy who can come out and sling the ball around. It's just a perfect spiral. I love it. I'm looking forward to it. I was telling him the other day, `This is going to be your town.' "

http://www.kcstar.com/item/pages/sports.pat,sports/3accc3d1.620,.html

Otter
06-20-2001, 10:33 PM
That's a great article. Gonzo always struck me as someone to speak the truth or keep his mouth shut.

Hope he's right!

One Arrowhead Dave
06-20-2001, 11:30 PM
"You talk about a guy who can come out and sling the ball around. It's just a perfect spiral. I love it. I'm looking forward to it. I was telling him the other day, `This is going to be your town.' "

Turn 'em loose coach...
Sounds like things are headed in the right direction. Well maybe, who is the new corner again?

Mile High Mania
06-21-2001, 07:39 AM
Well of course he looks good now... he's passing 'against' the Chiefs defensive squad. :-) Ok, ok ... just messin with ya. I'm in a major sports void.

htismaqe
06-21-2001, 07:53 AM
I think that's awesome, because if anybody benefitted from Elvis' inability to make reads, it was Gonzo...Green won't probably be as apt to dump it off to the TE, so having Gonzo on board is an excellent thing to hear...

HC_Chief
06-21-2001, 07:55 AM
hmmm, I don't know about that, htis. The TE plays an integral part in this O - beyond just 'dump offs'... TG will be a primary(if not THE primary) target in this system.

Of course, I agree 100% it's best to have him on board! :D

bkkcoh
06-21-2001, 07:59 AM
I can imagine TG as a more athletic Kellen Winslow when he was in his prime in S.D.

Remember the 200 + yard performance in the playoff game in Miami. What an individual performance? He literally had to be carried off the field. It is a shame more players don't leave a lot of themselves on the field like that.

htismaqe
06-21-2001, 07:59 AM
HC,

I didn't mean that Gonzo won't get the ball in this O, it's just that last year he caught about 30 more passes than he probably would have because he was ALWAYS Elvis' "hot" or dump-off man...

This offense will throw to the open receiver and shouldn't have to dump off short, because Green can hopefully make the reads...

I fully expect Gonzo to catch about 75 balls this year, but not 95+ like the last couple of seasons.

Mi_chief_fan
06-21-2001, 08:03 AM
Sorry, htismaqe, but if Green is as smart & good as everyone says, Gonzo will once again catch 90+ balls. If not, we're in trouble(unless, of course, Slymo or Snoop catches an equal or greater amount than Gonzo).

58Forever
06-21-2001, 08:53 AM
I don't seem to remember anyone saying anything this nice about Grbass...of course, Grfu*khead was always sticking his foot in his mouth with his head up his arse so he wouldn't have heard it anyway...

Green seems not only like a better QB, but a smarter person...it seems he knows how to treat his teammates and I'll bet real money you won't hear him blaming anyone but himself for lost games....

htismaqe
06-21-2001, 08:59 AM
Michigan guy,

I think we're going to see more balls caught by the wide receivers this year, rather than the ball being dumped off to the TE or the running back...

Green will get Gonzo the ball, but not if he's triple covered, like Grbac used to do...

donkhater
06-21-2001, 09:46 AM
I don't see it as being 'dumped off' to the TE. Rather I believe we'll see more of Tony running seam routes and some other routes downfield. What he may lose in catches, he'll make up in yardage (yards per catch).

DaWolf
06-21-2001, 11:15 AM
The more the ball is spread out, the better a team we'll be. If Gonzo's catches go down, that means we're distributing the ball more and have a more varied attack. That also means other guys are getting open. And finally, that'll probably mean we're ahead more often than we're behind, so we don't have to keep throwing to play catchup. And trust me, the only number Gonzo cares about is W's...

DaWolf
06-21-2001, 11:20 AM
Rick Dean had a very nice point about the offense in an article others posted on this board earlier:

Consider: It's third-and-6, a passing situation, but the Chiefs keep two backs on the field. The defense hesitates to send out a fifth defensive back, fearing vulnerability to the run. Before the snap, however, KC shifts Gonzalez to a wide-out position, putting him against either a slower linebacker or an undersized back. Holmes shifts and becomes a slot receiver, essentially creating a four-receiver spread offense. Richardson remains in the backfield as either a receiver or runner, and the Chiefs suddenly have a size advantage.

Options, options options. Now Green just needs to make the right choices...

Cannibal
06-21-2001, 11:24 AM
To be an explosive offense, I think you need a clutch WR that catches around 90-100 balls and a couple of others that catch 55-60+ balls for good yardage.

You have to have that clutch receiver ala Irvin, Rice, Carter, Moore [in his prime].

Having 4 guys catch 50 balls probably means your offense is inconsistant because you don't have 1 guy you can depend on.


Gonzo is our clutch receiver and we should use him as such.

DaWolf
06-21-2001, 11:28 AM
Not necessarially. The Raiders did fine with Tim Brown catching 70+ balls and the rest of the catches being spread out. Of course you'll still go to Gonzo in the clutch, but other guys can make plays if they're open...

htismaqe
06-21-2001, 11:30 AM
I agree with alot of what everyone is saying, but I still think that Gonzo's numbers will decline because Grbac would force the ball to him if DA wasn't open and there was no RB in the flat...

The way I see it:

DA - 75 rec
Gonzo - 75 rec
Sly - 60 rec
Minnis - 40 rec
Holmes - 40 rec
TRich - 35 rec

Something like that...

Cannibal
06-21-2001, 11:44 AM
DaWolf,


But their offense wasn't really "explosive" or dependable.


You still need one guy that is the primary weapon that can do the most damage on a consistant basis.

For us, I think that is Gonzo.


Whether we like it or not, Gonzo is our most dependable and most talented receiver. I don't think it's a good idea to not go to him just because he's a TE.

htismaqe
06-21-2001, 12:28 PM
I'm not suggesting that we don't go to him because he's a TE, I'm suggesting he won't be as available as a 5-yard dump-off option in this offense as he was the last couple of years...

He'll be playing downfield more often in this offense...

In light of the recent development with Sly, I see a possible breakdown like this...

Gonzo - 80
DA - 75
Minnis - 60
Holmes - 40
TRich - 40

there's another receiver in the mix now...if it's Derrick Mayes, I could see him catching 60...if it's Kirby Dar Dar, it'll be about 20...

ChiefGator
06-21-2001, 12:38 PM
As an interesting side note, during the Rams-Chiefs game I rewatched recently, the broadcaster was quoting Moon as saying we don't use our TE enough. Thought that was interesting, especially considering the number of catches Gonzo had to that point. I think he was actually including Drayton in that list too. When he came in for the last half of the last quarter, he threw a long pass to Drayton and then the TD to Gonzo.

Mark

keg in kc
06-21-2001, 01:03 PM
Before my "vacation" last week, I read an article somewhere discussing how St. Louis is planning to incorporate their tight ends into their passing offense more often this season. As I recall, the departure of Roland Williams to Jokeland has opened up playing time for the more athletic pass-catching TE's on the roster.

You have to use the best talent on the roster to your advantage, regardless of the position. Gonzo is clearly one of the most talented players we have, and we'll use that...

I liked the picture painted at the end of the Rick Dean article I posted earlier:

"And the big guy (Gonzalez) can be moved around to do a lot of things that we did with a third receiver (in St. Louis)."

Moreover, Vermeil says the Chiefs can create mismatches by using its basic two-back, two-wideout offense, even on passing downs.

Consider: It's third-and-6, a passing situation, but the Chiefs keep two backs on the field. The defense hesitates to send out a fifth defensive back, fearing vulnerability to the run. Before the snap, however, KC shifts Gonzalez to a wide-out position, putting him against either a slower linebacker or an undersized back. Holmes shifts and becomes a slot receiver, essentially creating a four-receiver spread offense. Richardson remains in the backfield as either a receiver or runner, and the Chiefs suddenly have a size advantage.

This offense could well be a nightmare for defenses, barring further injuries, and Gonzo will be a big, big part of it.

Parker, since we're making predictions:

(I'm predicting 365 total receptions)

DA: 90
Gonzo: 85
#2 WR (Morris, Minnis, et al): 80
Holmes: 50
Richardson: 35

That leaves 30 receptions to various and sundry other players..

Cannibal
06-21-2001, 03:22 PM
DA is not going to catch 90 balls! Are you insane?!

He drops every 4th pass thrown his way, that alone will prevent that.


I like DA, but he certainly won't be catching 90 passes anytime soon.

Cannibal
06-21-2001, 03:25 PM
Minnis w/ 80?!

Jesus! I think you're overestimating some of our receivers.

Rookie wideouts RARELY ever make any significant impact and seriously doubt that anything is different here.

Packfan
06-21-2001, 03:29 PM
Teams are going to figure out Gonzo and make sure he doesnt beat them next year. He is a great player, but he will get doubled a lot next year.

As far as saying that this is "Green's town". I dont know if that is a good thing or bad thing. You dont want to be a QB in this town (KC) when your 7-9 or worse. Ask Grbac. He goes to the pro bowl and still feels like he is run out of town.

phillfree
06-21-2001, 03:30 PM
When I read all the good things about Trent Green I can't help but flashing to the movie 'Gladiator'. When the protagonist is told to "win the people". Trent seems to be doing this on a daily basis. Can't wait to come to the Head to watch our new Gladiator will us to victory.

PhilFree :cool:

Cannibal
06-21-2001, 03:31 PM
Packfan,


Gonzo was doubled routinely in every game last year, yet he still dominated. I don't expect that to change.

They'll have to triple cover him... literally if they want to stop him.

Mi_chief_fan
06-21-2001, 03:33 PM
No sense explaining it Cannibal. He just doesn't understand.

keg in kc
06-21-2001, 04:11 PM
My last reply didn't get posted for whatever reason...

Cannibal, what the hell is your problem man? You can say anything you want to peckerfan for all I care, but there's no reason to be an @sshole to me.

First, DA will catch more passes because for several reasons:

1) More accurate quarterback who is able to hit recievers in stride with regularity
2) Quarterback also makes faster reads and won't lock onto the TE when he's under pressure
3) Quarterback will not force balls to him into tight double/triple coverage.
4) The offensive coordinator is (assumedly) not a bumbling idiot and plays should be creative and unpredictible, beneffiting everyone on offense.

Second, I never said Minnis would catch 80 passes, so I don't know what the f*ck you're talking about. I said the #2 WR position will catch 80 passes, and at the time, it was my assumption that Morris was not done for the year but would miss time initially, hence the inclusion of Minnis in parenthesis. Now, I believe we will somehow acquire a veteran, and between the #2 and #3 wide receivers, we'll have roughly 80 receptions.

I don't know what crawled up your @ss, but as I'm known to say,"I don't care if you disagree, just don't be disagreeable."

Cormac
06-21-2001, 04:11 PM
Cannibal's right. Not to mention, with the options we have with formations (especially if Ricks can step in as a TE), splitting guys out, motioning and audibling, it will be next to impossible to keep Tony in check. Then there's always DA, 2nd WR?, Holmes or T-Rich to fill in if Gonzo is covered.

BTW Packfan, c'mon, like you weren't booing Grbac the loudest while he was here. He couldn't do any right by you. What made you change your mind? What's this making him out to be a martyr :p

Welcome back Kyle :)

Mi_chief_fan
06-21-2001, 04:21 PM
I'm predicting 365 total receptions)

DA: 90

Gonzo: 85

#2 WR(Morris, Minnis et al): 80

Holmes:50
Richardson: 35

Now, I can certainly see where Cannibal thought you were saying snoop would catch 80 passes, and I have to agree with him. Not impossible, just unlikely. After all, Darrell Jackson had a huge season for Seattle last year, and I think Snoop has the ability to be a major contributor. I also think T-Rich will be our leading receiver out of the backfield.

Chiefs Pantalones
06-21-2001, 04:22 PM
I've noticed everyones kind of tense and short tempered...

probably because everyones kind of anxious for TC to get here and these are the dog days of the offseason?

keg in kc
06-21-2001, 04:27 PM
Thanks Cormac, I appreciate it. I haven't recovered quite yet (I drank more than I have in years while I was gone and I'm still feeling it a day after getting back...) ;)


My predictions assuming the injury, and I'll go player-by-player to avoid confusion:

DA: 80-90
Gonzo: 80-90
Holmes: 40-50
Vet #2 (????): 40-50
Minnis: 30-40
Richardson: 30-40
Other players: 25-35

Who the vet #2 will be I have no idea, but I don't see Minnis playing anything but the slot for us in 2001. My sleepers at WR for training camp include Ricky Hall and Dave Klemic, but we need a veteran WR now whereas it was something we were just considering before...

Cormac
06-21-2001, 04:29 PM
Kyle,

Did you imbibe like that because you wanted to, or had to? ;)

How did the reception of your fiancee go, if you don't mind being asked?

Mi_chief_fan
06-21-2001, 04:34 PM
Originally posted by Cody Goldizen
I've noticed everyones kind of tense and short tempered...

probably because everyones kind of anxious for TC to get here and these are the dog days of the offseason?

I think it is a couple of things:

1) We're all insensitive bastards
2) We've gone too long without Jalapeno cheese balls


I'm putting my money on the latter......... that's you're fault. ;)

keg in kc
06-21-2001, 04:34 PM
Well, Mi Chief Fan, it's not exactly my fault if you don't understand that the statement "Morris, Minnis et al" means "Morris, Minnis and other players". That statement was meant to indicate that the position is in question due to SlyMo's injury, and I'm not sure who will be playing there. As I have said on a number of occasions, I don't think Minnis has the size (yet) to play the #2 position, so I think he'll be limited to playing in the slot. I think eventually he may be a good candidate for #2, or maybe even #1, although, prior to the injury, I still saw SlyMo as DA's heir apparent.

Chiefs Pantalones
06-21-2001, 04:38 PM
Kyle,

:D

keg in kc
06-21-2001, 04:44 PM
Cormac, I drank every day I was away, at my own choosing (although there were a few moments...). The week went pretty well. As for my fiance, I'm not quite sure I understand your question, but I'll try to provide an answer. She has known my parents for a long time (over 4 years), and been home with me before, although we didn't really go anywhere while there, which is why I was a little worried about how people would respond to her on this trip. However, my parents recently bought a cabin on the Bluestone River near where they live, and the day that we were there, we didn't do anything but go to the cabin and just chill, which was perfect for both Tracy and myself - it's nice to get away, and the rest of the trip was pretty hectic.

I'll post something about the trip later or tomorrow, I have a few good stories to tell. ;)

Final thought - sorry to everyone if I'm a little testy - I feel like crap right now, so I might not be my normal, cheery self...

Mi_chief_fan
06-21-2001, 04:45 PM
I understand perfectly well, I simply said I can understand where Cannibal thought you said 'Minnis would catch 80 passes'. As far as a combination of receivers catching 80 in the #3 slot, I agree, it could happen, but with Morris out for no telling how long now, that task just got alot tougher.

Otter
06-21-2001, 05:00 PM
Packfan,

You may figure Gozo out and you may double team him but he is that good that he cannot stopped every play. And if you do double or triple team him it opens up the rest of the offense.

He does more than his share to kill you one way or another.


Keg,

Good to have ya back you ol' booze hound you. :D

Cormac
06-21-2001, 05:37 PM
Kyle,

Re-reading my question, I don't know how in the hell you were supposed to understand what I was asking! I was just wondering how well your fiancee was received by those who hadn't met her. You had expressed some concern about that. Sorry, basically, I was just prying :)

DanT
06-21-2001, 08:00 PM
Hey Cormac,

I love the joke in your signature. A very close variant of it is in a collection of short stories ("Birds of America") that Lorrie Moore published in 1998. Here's an excerpt from a review of that book that is written by a jealously admiring writer. It concludes with Moore's version of the quote, one of many gems in her wonderful book.

http://www.citypages.com/databank/19/934/article6384.asp

Lorrie Moore
Birds of America
Knopf


AS A WRITER, I hate Lorrie Moore. Her work is too good. In a book like Birds of America, she displays this virtuoso range through mourners, mothers, backstabbing academics, and dancers who box with the ragged bad jokes of life and make them all into balletic, slapstick tragedy.

And I say to hell with it. Where does she get off making me want to pack all my semicolons into a trunk in the attic, turn my thesaurus over to the proper authorities, and do something useful with my life?

Consider even a lesser piece in this collection of 11 stories (all previously published in magazines), like, say, "Beautiful Grade," in which a 24-year-old student, Debbie, tells her middle-aged-professor lover, Bill: "Don't think I'm doing this for a good grade. I'm doing this for a beautiful grade." And: "If I'm just a passing fancy then I want to pass fancy." Bill is oft-divorced, as are his overeducated friends, who say things such as, "No more divorces. No more wasting time. From here on in, I'm just going to go out there, find a woman I really don't like very much, and give her a house."

Cannibal
06-21-2001, 08:06 PM
Kyle,

Don't get your panties in knot for christ's sake! What did I say to make you cry like that?!

When you said:

#2 WR(Morris, Minnis et al): 80

I took it to mean that whoever [Morris or Minnis] was the # 2 WR was going to catch 80 balls. I didn't know that you were saying that the # 2 WR position would be a committee.

I don't think the # 2 position will be a committee either. I'm hoping Vermiel gives Minnis a chance to earn the spot for himself.

I still completely disagree that DA will catch 90 balls this year. It just won't happen. I feel strong enough about it to put up a wager... if your game.

Rausch
06-21-2001, 08:37 PM
From what I gather about this offense it's success depends on getting the ball into our most talented players hands on every down.

That means runs by Holmes/T Rich, passes to Gonzo, Alex, Snoop, and any other truly talented players that may lie hidden on the depth chart.

That means that spreading the ball out, equally to each of our top guys, so that one man or target being doubled only allows another to run freely.


This would idealy mean equal distribution of the pigskin. Meaning also that if we have a harmonious run/pass balance and 50 snaps in a game, then there are only 25 passes to go around. If four players are primary targets that means about 6 catches a game, and 96 catches a season.

Of course, some players will get open more, some less, but that is it.

Hopefully.....:D

keg in kc
06-21-2001, 09:32 PM
Pretty good analysis, I think, Brad, although 4 players averaging 96 catches would make for 384 receptions, and I doubt we'll have quite that many, although I guess anything is possible. In any case, I think you're right on the money.

Cannibal, I'd have taken that bet a day ago, but not now. Morris' injury paired with the absense of a capable replacement (IMHO) means defenses will be freer to double team both DA and Gonzo. Alexander should still get around 80 catches, but I believe we're going to miss Morris a lot more than some of the other folks on the board seem to think. I honestly don't know what we're going to do, and our options are limited, to say the least.

This is about as bad a way as we could have ended June, short of Trent Green, Gonzo or DA going down, at least when you're talking about offensive skill players...

Cannibal
06-21-2001, 09:37 PM
That's what I thought... likely excuse :D

I'd be surprised if DA caught 80 to be honest w/ you.

I'd put him in the 60-70 range where he's been basically his entire career.

I don't want you guys to think I'm down on DA. I like him and he is a good receiver. I just don't think he gets open, or is consistant enough to be a go to 90+ catch guy.

He could prove me wrong, but his history definitely does not support it.

keg in kc
06-21-2001, 10:11 PM
Cannibal, now is exactly when we get to learn just how good DA is. The days of slowly-developing plays and play action allowing him to get open are over, now it's time for beating folks off the line and crisp route running on each and every play. And the drops, gotta keep getting better with that...

Rausch
06-22-2001, 05:19 AM
Let me ammend that....:D

96 balls thrown to that reciever....Some will be drops, int's, overthrown, etc...


But an average of 96 balls tossed ta' each one. That is the ideal, if I understand correctly. I think with only a few drops, accuracy as advertised on Green's part, and solid play calling....



Then again, it could be more if our defense ends up weaker than last year, as is feared by more than myself. Also if the running game takes a similar toiled twirl like last year, the ball may be flying! I hope not, reaaaaaly hope not, but it is a posibility.


We could have two recievers over the century mark in catches. Hell, it almost happened last year with Girlbac at the helm! :cool:

Cannibal
06-22-2001, 07:55 AM
We'll see Kyle.


Just don't get your hopes up too high thinking he's gonna catch 80 or 90 balls.

htismaqe
06-22-2001, 10:54 AM
Cannibal,

I'll give you that DA is really a 60-70 catch guy, but maybe not in this offense. Why? Because you put the ball in the hands of the guy that can score, and that's where DA excels.

He's one of the best in the league at getting behind defenses and running after the catch. He averages SEVENTEEN yards a catch for his career. Compare that to 15 ypc for Isaac Bruce, who's also been in the league for seven years. In fact, DA has averaged OVER 17 ypc in 3 of his seven seasons. The closest Bruce ever came was 16.9.

NaptownChief
06-22-2001, 11:00 AM
Comparing I.Bruce's ypc to DA is a little misleading cause Bruce has always been used in short yardage passing game along with his downfield ability...Our short yardage passing attack has always gone the direction of Gonzo...

htismaqe
06-22-2001, 12:17 PM
I don't think that's true at all, and I have stats to backup my opinion. How about this:

Isaac Bruce had 24 catches last year of 20 yards or more, and 6 catches of 40 yards or more...

Derrick Alexander had 24 catches of 20 yards or more, and 7 of 40 or more...

Still DA averaged 1.0 yard more per catch...I think the comparison to Bruce is VERY fair. In fact, DA compares favorably with many receivers in many career categories, despite the fact that they get alot more hype than he does...

DaWolf
06-22-2001, 12:21 PM
DA has the talent, but his work ethic has been questionable. If he applies himself and has the mental toughness, he can be all pro...

NaptownChief
06-22-2001, 12:27 PM
I'm not sure how those stats prove your opinion to be accurate? It shows that they had virtually identical number of big plays but it doesn't begin to tell the story on how they two of them were used....If a receiver is called on a lot during 3rd and 5 type situations like Isaac is then his average per catch numbers are going to be lower than a receiver like DA who is primarily used as a home run hitter...

NaptownChief
06-22-2001, 12:44 PM
I think to fairly compare DA's ypc would be to compare it to guys that are used in the same fashion as he is, like Randy Moss and Torry Holt...The Vikes use C.Carter in the shorter yardage situation much the same as the Rams use Bruce and we use Gonzo.

htismaqe
06-22-2001, 02:05 PM
One, Bruce was used no more in 3 and 5 than DA was, or anybody else for that matter. The Rams offense was designed to put the ball down the field, and that's what they did. You're arguing that Bruce was used for more short-yardage plays, but you haven't produced any statistics to prove that.

I'm not trying to be a dick, but you're sitting here telling me I'm wrong without anything to back it up.

By the way, I did compare DA to Randy Moss and Torry Holt. DA compares favorably with any other receiver in the top fifteen. In fact he ranks 3rd behind Holt (19.9) and Moss (18.7)...

Cannibal
06-22-2001, 04:19 PM
Are you trying to say Alexander is a better receiver?



Most people would trade Alexander for Bruce straight up.

Alexander: 86 games started, 376 catches, 6,367 yds, 36 tds.

Bruce: 81 games started, 476 catches, 7,299 yards, 50 tds.

Bruce put up better numbers in fewer games.

NaptownChief
06-22-2001, 10:06 PM
Being that I have M.Faulk on my carry over fantasy team I have watched virtually every snap taken by the Rams the past two seasons when it didn't conflict with the Chiefs taking snaps...That being said, I know that Bruce is used in the short to mid range passing game much more than DA has been with us...If I had nothing better to do on a Friday night I could spend a couple hours researching game logs to provide statistics to back it up but I don't get enough enjoyment out of proving people wrong to warrant that much time.

If anyone else on this board is pretty familiar with the Rams tendencies then I am sure they will agree without having to quote statistics, much in the same way we don't need to pour over statistics to know that Chris Carter is used much more in the short to mid-range passing game than Randy Moss.

Cormac
06-23-2001, 04:27 PM
DanT,

Sorry about the late reply! It seems as though ol' Rod stole the line?!?! What a shocker :p

htismaqe
06-25-2001, 08:03 AM
Cannibal,

No I wouldn't trade Bruce for DA straight up. But I also wouldn't trade DA for much less.

JL80,

I had Faulk, Bruce, and Alexander on my FFL team last year. Bruce is NOT used like Chris Carter, although he is used in short yardage more than DA. DA is better with the ball than Bruce is IMO. Just watch the guy run a reverse. He's scored 3 times on 60+ reverse plays.

(Personal experience is a good enough stat for me. As long as you were watching the games, I respect your stance.)