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View Full Version : Chiefs too aggressive and other thoughts


Zouk
11-12-2007, 07:24 AM
1) For all those who have been crying that Solari's too conservative and Dick Curl is the most evil force ever placed on the universe - I think the team showed you early in the 3rd quarter yesterday why going into the spread offense and throwing the ball downfield is the wrong strategic choice for this team. I've really never seen a team less equipped to be that kind of offense. One has to wonder if Solari was reading message boards and Jason Whitlock columns when he came up with those 2 ridiculous series of play calls.

2) I think Gunther was also too aggressive yesterday, completely selling out on the run multiple times in the 2nd half yesterday, and giving Cutler easy big plays on 3rd and shorts. For defensive coordinators trailing in the 2nd half, over-aggression is usually just a sign of panic. And Gunther falls victim to that way too often, in my opinion.

3) Guys who should not be on the offense next year: Welbourn, Terry, Turley, Dunn, Kennison, Parker, Wilson. That's a lot of holes to fill in a single offseason. One guy who looked very good last night is Jake Scott from the Colts, who played RG and then RT when Diem got hurt. He's a free agent after the year, and with the Colts lack of cap room should be available. The best thing about signing him is that with his position flexibility it would allow us to take the best RG or RT available on the first day of the draft next year, and not be locked in to having to take just one or the other.

Wiegmann needs to be brought back for 1 more year because his leadership and ability to call protections will be needed with all the change around him. Just giving that job to Niswanger with no competition would be a mistake, and there are no good free agent centers likely to be available.

Jeff Webb to me is nothing more than a 4th receiver. I'd like to see a receiver taken on day 1 (preferably a guy who can also return kicks), and a mid-level free agent like Justin McCareins brought in. Other mid to low-level free agents that might fit the Chiefs include John Gilmore, blocking TE for the Bears, and Dan Kreider, FB for the Steelers. We need smart physical players who can learn lots of complicated motion offense and still move the pile better than Wilson. Wilson's fumble (recovered by Kennison) was another bone-headed play by a player I see as nothing more than a big disappointment.

4) On defense, Ty Law is a virtual lock to be gone. I think Surtain should go as well because he's not worth 6 mill a year. Benny Sapp can do his job just as well for a lot less money. We'll also need a first day pick and a mid-level free agent signing at this position.

Napoleon Harris was just terrible yesterday. Nate Harris should be given the opportunity to compete for that job next year as well.

5) Mike Priefer needs to be off this staff. The return units are the worst I've ever seen, and the coverage units are mediocre to poor. This is not all Drummond's fault, as we were terrible with Dante Hall as well. No unit is more reliant on the quality of the coaching than special teams. Priefer has got to be seeing the writing on the wall at this point.

Molitoth
11-12-2007, 07:30 AM
Good Post. I agree.

the Talking Can
11-12-2007, 07:34 AM
"One guy who looked very good last night is Jake Scott from the Colts, who played RG and then RT when Diem got hurt. He's a free agent after the year, and with the Colts lack of cap room should be available."


we need more of this, sounds like Boone...second team player on a strong unit on a good team who can be had for a decent price....

Zouk
11-12-2007, 07:36 AM
"One guy who looked very good last night is Jake Scott from the Colts, who played RG and then RT when Diem got hurt. He's a free agent after the year, and with the Colts lack of cap room should be available."


we need more of this, sounds like Boone...second team player on a strong unit on a good team who can be had for a decent price....


He's not a 2nd string player - he's the starting RG and has been for the last 3 or so years.

dirk digler
11-12-2007, 07:41 AM
Good post Zouk. Though I disagree about Kennison I think he can fill a role here.

chagrin
11-12-2007, 07:45 AM
All I will say is we don't have to go to a spread vs the ultra conservative scheme we have now - there's got to be a way we can turn it up a little bit without trying to get sexy.

Mecca
11-12-2007, 07:48 AM
Good post Zouk. Though I disagree about Kennison I think he can fill a role here.

I dunno man, generally when a WR misses 10 weeks because of a hamstring it's a pretty good sign his age has caught him. Having a WR that's his age on your roster is extremely risky as it is, that's one of the fall off the face of the map at any time positions at that age.

Chiefnj2
11-12-2007, 07:49 AM
Add Herm and Carl to your list of people that need replacing and I agree. Otherwise it's just the same old story.

Easy 6
11-12-2007, 07:50 AM
1) I disagree with this to an extent, the O line only looks serviceable in pass pro & Brodie looked comfy with it, the shotgun in particular. The TIMING of Solaris calls is often baffling...but spread sets & shotgun is perfect for us right now IMO.

2) Not Gun or the D's best day for sure, but they werent helped one bit by the O. Its hard for me to be overly angry with'em here.

3) Bye-Bye to those guys...but i like what Webb brings to the table, he had the drop...but he also continues to do nice work along the sidelines & has the size to body up on tight throws...he just needs more spit & polish. McCareins isnt a bit better IMO & will cost more.

5) Couldnt agree more, Michelle Preifer needs to go see coach...& bring his playbook.

dirk digler
11-12-2007, 07:50 AM
I dunno man, generally when a WR misses 10 weeks because of a hamstring it's a pretty good sign his age has caught him. Having a WR that's his age on your roster is extremely risky as it is, that's one of the fall off the face of the map at any time positions at that age.

The problem is we have so many holes it is going to be tough to find a good WR to put across from Bowe.

Mecca
11-12-2007, 07:51 AM
The problem is we have so many holes it is going to be tough to find a good WR to put across from Bowe.

Psh it's Herm, you and me can be the 2 and 3 and no one will really notice.

Rausch
11-12-2007, 07:51 AM
I don't think we are too aggressive. I just don't think that type of play calling plays into Huard's strengths. He's a game management/play action type of QB with average to poor arm strength. In a run oriented offense (last year) that's productive he did just fine. But he's not a gunslinger.

Brodie is. If you want someone to throw the ball all over - and since we don't seem to have much choice here - you should put in your best passer. Brodie had a lot more zip on his passes the offense looked better immediately.

Zouk
11-12-2007, 07:54 AM
Psh it's Herm, you and me can be the 2 and 3 and no one will really notice.

I disagree strongly. A big reason we have pass protection problems is because receivers on this team don't get open quickly. When Herm had Moss and Coles in NY they were a team capable of winning playoff games. We desperately need more weapons.

Zouk
11-12-2007, 07:57 AM
I don't think we are too aggressive. I just don't think that type of play calling plays into Huard's strengths. He's a game management/play action type of QB with average to poor arm strength. In a run oriented offense (last year) that's productive he did just fine. But he's not a gunslinger.

Brodie is. If you want someone to throw the ball all over - and since we don't seem to have much choice here - you should put in your best passer. Brodie had a lot more zip on his passes the offense looked better immediately.

Arm strength is over-rated. The thing that makes you equipped to run spread is the ability to leave your tackles on an island and having a QB in sync with receivers who can get open quickly. Look how quickly the ball comes out from Brady and Manning. That's decision making and experience (both have been in the same offense for 5 plus years), not arm strength.

Rausch
11-12-2007, 08:02 AM
Arm strength is over-rated. The thing that makes you equipped to run spread is the ability to leave your tackles on an island and having a QB in sync with receivers who can get open quickly. Look how quickly the ball comes out from Brady and Manning. That's decision making and experience (both have been in the same offense for 5 plus years), not arm strength.

If you're going to be slinging the ball all day you can't have floating ducks that seem to just hang in the air. Every time you toss up some floater into the wind you give a defense time to make the catch as well.

And while pulling a TrINT and throwing off your back foot is never smart somehow Brodie does so while going deep. Watching the replay that ball was about 3 inches from 6 pts. And you can tell that arm strength also gives him confidence. He's not afraid to go downfield or zip a ball into tight coverage...

Mr. Laz
11-12-2007, 09:37 AM
and who made them "less equipped" to run a real offense?


please ...... this offense has just as much talent overall as the vermeil offense did.

RustShack
11-12-2007, 09:39 AM
I think Parker will be back, unless we draft another one.

DaKCMan AP
11-12-2007, 09:44 AM
any who made them "less equipped" to run a real offense?


please ...... this offense has just as much talent overall as the vermeil offense did.

At the skill positions, yes - even moreso. Vermeil did, however, have 2 hall of fame offensive lineman.

philfree
11-12-2007, 09:50 AM
any who made them "less equipped" to run a real offense?


please ...... this offense has just as much talent overall as the vermeil offense did.

With a healthy Kennison this team has afine set of skill players. Better then what DV had. The O line missing those two pro bowl players is a huge difference though. Put guys like Roaf and Shields on the line and we'd have a great offense again. Well.......with a new O.C..

PhilFree:arrow:

Mr. Laz
11-12-2007, 09:51 AM
With a healthy Kennison this team has afine set of skill players. Better then what DV had. The O line missing those two pro bowl players is a huge difference though. Put guys like Roaf and Shields on the line and we'd have a great offense again. Well.......with a new O.C..

PhilFree:arrow:
agreed .... the talent has been moved around a bit but the talent level is the same or better now.

Zouk
11-12-2007, 09:56 AM
any who made them "less equipped" to run a real offense?


please ...... this offense has just as much talent overall as the vermeil offense did.

You clearly know something every other football commentator doesn't because they looked at the talent on this team and thought it would win 3-6 games this year.

Everyone freaking out needs to realize the team IS being rebuilt. That doesn't necessarily mean all 1st or 2nd year players. But it does mean different players than were here before.

Here's the team that was left in 2005. Look how old and broken down it was. People have already forgotten the absolute crisis that Herm inherited on D. They spent a lot of resources fixing that, and this offseason they will move on the O (but think how bad it would be if they didn't draft Bowe).

QB - Trent Green (traded, now likely to retire)
RB - Larry Johnson
FB - Tony Richardson (gone, probably will retire after this year)
WR - Eddie Kennison (probably gone after this year)
WR - Samie Parker (probably gone after this year)
WR - Dante Hall (gone)
TE - Tony Gonzalez
TE - Jason Dunn (probably gone after this year)
LT - Willie Roaf (retired)
LG - Brian Waters
C - Casey Wiegmann (possibly gone after this year, maybe 1 more year)
RG - Will Shields (retired)
RT - John Welbourn (gone after this year)

DE - Jared Allen
DE - Eric Hicks (gone)
DT - John Browning (gone)
DT - Lionel Dalton, Ryan Sims, Junior Siavii (gone, gone, gone)
LB - Kendrell Bell (benched, will be gone)
LB - Kawika Mitchell (gone)
LB - Derrick Johnson
CB - Pat Surtain (possibly gone after the year)
CB - Eric Warfield (gone)
S - Sammy Knight (gone)
S - Greg Wesley (benched, will be gone)


It was not realistic to think this team would be a serious Super Bowl contender within 2-3 years of 2005. It was a mess with holes everywhere and virtually no young talent already here to replace them.

Chiefnj2
11-12-2007, 10:03 AM
People predicted 3-6 wins primarily because of the QB situation (which Herm mishandled), the OL situation (which Herm mishandled) and coaching.

Zouk
11-12-2007, 10:04 AM
People predicted 3-6 wins primarily because of the QB situation (which Herm mishandled), the OL situation (which Herm mishandled) and coaching.

Please. Herm has made the playoffs 4 times in 6 years. Although message boarders may have thought that, football commentators are more in touch with reality.

The QB and OL were terrible because we had to fill all the other holes on the team.

FringeNC
11-12-2007, 10:48 AM
Please. Herm has made the playoffs 4 times in 6 years. Although message boarders may have thought that, football commentators are more in touch with reality.

The QB and OL were terrible because we had to fill all the other holes on the team.

Herm was not a hot commodity. You can spin the playoff appearances all you want, but take last year for instance: The 10-6 team that preceded that team didn't make the playoffs and was a MUCH better team. There is a lot of noise in using "making the playoffs" as a criterion for success. We made the playoffs because the AFC West played the NFC West. End of story.

Hydrae
11-12-2007, 10:51 AM
I disagree strongly. A big reason we have pass protection problems is because receivers on this team don't get open quickly. When Herm had Moss and Coles in NY they were a team capable of winning playoff games. We desperately need more weapons.


If we need a WR out there who can get open quickly, then put Sippio out there. His experience in Arena ball means that he is used to working in a tight field with quickly thrown balls. I think with that experience he would probably be a heck of a slot type receiver and could probably pull some coverage off of Tony over the middle.

Zouk
11-12-2007, 10:52 AM
Herm was not a hot commodity. You can spin the playoff appearances all you want, but take last year for instance: The 10-6 team that preceded that team didn't make the playoffs and was a MUCH better team. There is a lot of noise in using "making the playoffs" as a criterion for success. We made the playoffs because the AFC West played the NFC West. End of story.


I don't disagree with why we made the playoffs. I'm just saying the talent that was inherited was horrendous. The 2005 team may have been better but it was also the last chance for Green, Holmes, Roaf, Shields, Kennison. Herm inherited all the inevitable career-ending injuries and general breaking down malaise. People can't pretend that we have competitive talent right now.

the Talking Can
11-12-2007, 10:52 AM
He's not a 2nd string player - he's the starting RG and has been for the last 3 or so years.

lol....don't mind me....

'Hamas' Jenkins
11-12-2007, 11:01 AM
There's nothing wrong with running this O out of the spread. There is a problem with doing it if Huard is the QB.

Count Zarth
11-12-2007, 11:03 AM
I've said it all along and said it last year. Passing MORE with this OL is asking for disaster. We've actually had decent success from the empty backfield this year, but eventually it will kill a team with tackles as bad as we use.

RustShack
11-12-2007, 11:03 AM
The reason the pass wasn't as effective as it should of been when Croyle was in there is because Huard already had us down, meaning we had to pass.

Zouk
11-12-2007, 11:03 AM
There's nothing wrong with running this O out of the spread. There is a problem with doing it if Huard is the QB.

And if Chris Terry is your right tackle, and if your only good receiver is a rookie without great quickness.

RedThat
11-12-2007, 11:05 AM
and who made them "less equipped" to run a real offense?


please ...... this offense has just as much talent overall as the vermeil offense did.

Hmmm....I can say I somewhat agree with that.

But, I think the O-line dropped off bigtime losing both Roaf and Shields killed us. You can see it.

We need to rebuild the line. Terry, Welbourn, wiegman are just not good lineman. McIntosh is very average, and for some reason Waters is not playing like his usual self.

I really really think we need to get Solari back to where he belongs as an OL coach. The Chiefs need a new playcaller on offense.

A few tweaks here and there, and we should be ok. But then again, with Herm here, I think it'll be an example of a bad offensive coach wasting good talent on offense.

'Hamas' Jenkins
11-12-2007, 11:09 AM
And if Chris Terry is your right tackle, and if your only good receiver is a rookie without great quickness.

If we would run out of that formation, and weren't down 2-3 scores, you wouldn't have the problem of being one dimensional.

FringeNC
11-12-2007, 11:10 AM
The O-line looked like a different unit after Croyle took over. Huard's slow decision-making and glacial release were the big problems.

Croyle was sacked twice in, what, 30 attempts? My guess is that would have about the average NFL rate.

RedThat
11-12-2007, 11:11 AM
The O-line looked like a different unit after Croyle took over. Huard's slow decision-making and glacial release were the big problems.

Huard was sacked twice in, what, 30 attempts? My guess is that would have about the average NFL rate.

Yes, but they still sucked in terms of runblocking.

Count Zarth
11-12-2007, 11:13 AM
The O-line looked like a different unit after Croyle took over. Huard's slow decision-making and glacial release were the big problems.

Huard was sacked twice in, what, 30 attempts? My guess is that would have about the average NFL rate.

Huard and Croyle have both been sacked once every 10 dropbacks this year. We'll see if it improves with Brodie in there I guess...

'Hamas' Jenkins
11-12-2007, 11:14 AM
Yes, but they still sucked in terms of runblocking.

The biggest problem was that my wife could call out all our run plays.

Any time we did a reset of the formation, we ran. Every f*cking time. Combine that with our continued determination to pound it up the middle rather than using the stretch play (which worked well at times), and you have what you have.

DaKCMan AP
11-12-2007, 11:15 AM
Huard and Croyle have both been sacked once every 10 dropbacks this year. We'll see if it improves with Brodie in there I guess...

The difference is that Brodie's been in obvious passing situations each appearance. As you said, we'll see if it holds true.

the Talking Can
11-12-2007, 11:15 AM
Huard and Croyle have both been sacked once every 10 dropbacks this year. We'll see if it improves with Brodie in there I guess...

I've never seen anyone who used stats to more pointless effect than you.

Familiar with the phrase "sample size"?

RedThat
11-12-2007, 11:17 AM
We need to rebuild this O-line through the draft.

This should be our #1 primary focus in this draft this year!

The Chiefs should use all their first day picks on Offensive lineman. Start off by drafting an OT in the first round. Then draft a center or guard in the 2nd. Take a center or guard in the 3rd.

And hire Solari back as OL coach. This unit is bleeding badly. It needs a major fix. I don't care if people here want to blame Huard. Or if LJ is having a bad year, whatever. The Offensive line has sucked all year, and has been this teams biggest weakness.

Chris Meck
11-12-2007, 01:53 PM
Horse$h*t.

A spread formation can mask weak spots on the line, and at least in our case, the weak spots are often in man up drive blocking. Spread formations create immediate physical space that can be manipulated. It forces a defense to cover sideline to sideline. Over the course of a game, they'll wear down IF you can stay on the field.

with Croyle, a defense will have to respect the entire field. They'll blitz him and harass him until he proves he can handle it, but they'll be aware of his arm.

this is the best corps of receivers we've had since Carson and Paige. The Bowe, Gonzo, and a healthy Kennison trio are pretty damned good. Priest Holmes is a great outlet option and fine blitz picker-upper. Kolby Smith is a similar player physically, and hopefully he'll pick up on what Priest does. Larry needs to take his time off and think about the rest of his game.

Chiefnj2
11-12-2007, 01:55 PM
Horse$h*t.

A spread formation can mask weak spots on the line, and at least in our case, the weak spots are often in man up drive blocking. Spread formations create immediate physical space that can be manipulated. It forces a defense to cover sideline to sideline. Over the course of a game, they'll wear down IF you can stay on the field.

with Croyle, a defense will have to respect the entire field. They'll blitz him and harass him until he proves he can handle it, but they'll be aware of his arm.

this is the best corps of receivers we've had since Carson and Paige. The Bowe, Gonzo, and a healthy Kennison trio are pretty damned good. Priest Holmes is a great outlet option and fine blitz picker-upper. Kolby Smith is a similar player physically, and hopefully he'll pick up on what Priest does. Larry needs to take his time off and think about the rest of his game.

I don't think a healthy Kennison exists anymore.