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Chiefs Pantalones
06-30-2001, 09:47 PM
I was thinking...

How does our WRs stack up against the Raiders CBs and how does our CBs stack up against their WRs? Who has the advantage?...

The same with every division foe? How does our WRs stand against the CBs and vice versa of Seattle, Broncos, Chargers, and as mentioned above, the Raiders? Whos got it?

CG

a football topic...its coming soon:D


ps. TEs can be included too and how they match up against our LBs and Ss and vice versa...

and if I see anyone go against Gonzalez (even opposing fans) I want a good explanation why you think your LBs have an edge over this guy...and it better be good:p

AJKCFAN
06-30-2001, 09:48 PM
From a WR vs CB stadnpoint, not too good.

Include Gonzalez in the WR vs CB matchup, and the advantage tilts to us...

Chiefs Pantalones
06-30-2001, 09:50 PM
Thanks AJ,

I forgot the TEs.

AJKCFAN
06-30-2001, 09:54 PM
It does raise the point.

Is Tony Gonzalez the toughest receiver to defend one on one in the entire NFL?

As a TE, no question. I'm talking about Gonzalez vs Moss, Harrison, Bruce, Holt, and all comers.

Chiefs Pantalones
06-30-2001, 09:58 PM
AJ,

Good question. Moss would be the only argument, IMO, but the fact that he takes plays off would mean Gonzo has the advantage as a WR, IMO, and I'm not being biased either. TG gets faster every year.

Chiefs Pantalones
06-30-2001, 10:00 PM
and also... I've seen every one of those guys you mentioned get shut down in games, but the only time I've seen Tony get shut down is when the Chiefs DON'T throw the ball to him.

AJKCFAN
06-30-2001, 10:01 PM
I'm not suggesting Gonzalez is the best receiver in the NFL because he's not.

I am saying he's impossible to defend one on one and if a team is foolish to do so, Gonzalez will make them pay every single time... especially in the red zone, where he is gold.

You might be able to cover a Moss with a Woodson, but Woodson has never been seen covering Gonzalez, now has he?

AJKCFAN
06-30-2001, 10:04 PM
I love it that the experts say that the new Chiefs offense will deny Gonzalez the ball. Are they crazy? Gonzalez plays all 16 games and he's catching a minimum of 85 balls and he's a lock for at least 1000 yards and 10 TD's.

I'll make a bold prediction right here. Tony Gonzalez will catch 100 balls this season for the Chiefs and repeat the feat in Chiefs Red in 2002, as long as he is healthy and as long as Trent Green stays healthy.

In this offense, he's going to be even more dangerous than ever before!

Chiefs Pantalones
06-30-2001, 10:06 PM
I don't think there is a "best receiver in the NFL" AJ. I'm just talking about coverage. In order to talk about "best" we have to include route running, hands, speed, etc., IMO.

Chiefs Pantalones
06-30-2001, 10:08 PM
That is very true, AJ. There is only two things that can stop TG, IMO...they are injuries, and himself, IMO.

Warrior5
06-30-2001, 10:44 PM
To answer your original question would almost require a book. <I>On paper,</I> the Chiefs receivers match up well against AFC West secondaries. Conversely, our secondary is suspect right now for a plethora of reasons, but primarily because we don't know what we don't know yet.
The Raiders unquestionably have a stud set of receivers and RBs; the Chiefs' secondary will get burned at times, so the key here is to get to Gannon.
Trying to group Gonzales with WRs at this point is almost like comparing apples and oranges, because a TE does so much more than receive. He must be able to block, feint, pass protect, block downfield, and of course, receive. Moss isn't required to do the same.
But as far as individual receiving skills go, I'll echo what AJKCFAN said. I've seen Gonzales (as I'm sure you have) catch passes thrown behind him while he's on both knees, after he's been interfered with (yellow flags flying all over the place), and with the defender STILL draped all over him. Against the Jags (I think it was two years ago), I watched him catch a flare pass at the same time he took a vicious hit head-on from a Jag defender. Not only did he hang on to the ball; he jumped up, handed the ball to the ref, grabbed the defender by the collar and yelled in his face, "That was a great hit, man!"
Sorry, I digress... I haven't seen a LB yet that could cover Gonzales... I love the guy.

Luzap
06-30-2001, 10:59 PM
It's interesting to speculate, but the real question is... will our coaching staff scheme our offense to maximize the talent of the players we have?

It's really not about matching our best receiver against their best CB; it's about creating mismatches and then executing a play that takes maximum advantage of those mismatches.

I was so sick of watching my team fail in this area last year that I am very excited about the new coaching staff. IMO, this could be an area that we excell at ~ if so, watch out for the Chiefs!

Luz
i think we could have a very good year...

keg in kc
07-01-2001, 12:20 AM
Cody, I don't think we can judge our WRs against anyone's secondary at this point.

The only experienced, proven wide receiver we have is Derrick Alexander: Dante Hall - had decent numbers in Europe (34 receptions for 462 yards, 13.6 ypc), but has no NFL experience whatsoever as a WR.

Ricky Hall - had good-looking numbers in Europe as #3 WR for Frankfurt this summer (27 receptions for 488 yards, 18.1 ypc), but will he be able to play at that level in the NFL?

Tony Horne - 4 career NFL receptions.

Dave Klemic - rookie.

"Snoop" Minnis - rookie.

J.J. Moses - rookie.

Larry Parker - 3 career NFL receptions.

Mikhael Ricks - 73 career NFL receptions. Our most experienced WR behind DA, but he's been converted to TE.

Geroy Simon - no NFL experience at WR.

Chris Thomas - 32 career NFL receptions.

How do we gauge these players; how do we judge how they'll do against NFL cornerbacks?

Not really much to work with there, at least in terms of NFL experience. Potential? Maybe. There's definitely some speed there, and maybe one or more of these guys will step up, but I'd venture a guess that this isn't a position that any NFL team would want to be in heading into training camp.

Can we come out of it smelling like roses? Sure. But that's asking an awful lot from a group of guys with virtually no NFL experience...

Don't take this as a gloom-and-doom "the sky is falling" post; I think the offense will still perform well, I'm just posting what I see as a realist's view of what we have at WR right now...

tommykat
07-01-2001, 12:42 AM
Maybe as a female I am biased.......but anyone going up againist Tony Gonzalez is in harms way! The guy knows what he wants and has done what he can to get where he is...He deserves what and where the man is........;)

hawaiianboy
07-01-2001, 03:04 AM
Let me take a semi-stab at this one... Seems like most of the KC fan base is enamored with the passing game... but IMHO, the reason we took two off you guys was:

~~You couldn't run the ball:

-55 total yards rushing
-35 total yards rushing

Most comparisons I've seen here have been to the so called Martzyball offense and the Cowboy offense of Norv/ SD of the early 80's....

* First with all the accusations of Martzy ball being a pass happy offense... the thing to keep in mind is both years, they had about 2000 yards rushing ~ (and before the stat pimps start throwing stat darts at me, I'm guestamating this from memory, I'm too lazy to look up the exact numbers)~.....

IMO the Rams belly flopped last season not because of the injury to Warner or Faulk, but due to the rash of injuries to their offensive line..... In '99 they were hardly a finesse blocking team... they had a big line that mauled people...
They were a pass first team that set up the run by making teams overplay the pass thus leaving only 7 men in the box... Couple this with the fact all their TE's weighed in the 270 lb range ..... Turn that big 6 loose on a running play and you have Faulk in the secondary fairly often....
(Bonus point: name the TE the Rams cut because he was too small to run block, that pulled a Joe Horn and became All Pro the next season for his new team)

** As for the 'Boy comparison... That be a bold statement... IMO, they had the best O-line ever (Tuinei,Newton,Step,Gogan,Williams).. They were maulers!... Those Super Bowl teams ran the most efficient offense I've ever seen.... They ran the ball till you put 8 in the box then let Aikman pick you apart....

So where does KC fit in style to those two models?...:::SHRUG::: You got me... I guess thats the 100,000 cow chip question....

IMO....If you don't improve your run blocking and show some ability to run between the tackles it won't matter what formations you use against us... I'm fairly certain Woodson/Allen/James can match up well vs. your 3 WR sets, especially since we can play a safety in a pass help mode..... I'm pretty sure coordinators are going to throw a load of blitzes Greens way, just as they did when he was with the Skins...

As for Gonzo, if we play Biekart on him.... he'll put up huge numbers again... Bieks lack of foot speed and coverage skills showed all year against quality TE's... Which hopefully leads the staff decide to not play TE's with slow footed MLB's .....and which hopefully is the very reason we signed Ryan Phillips to play the Strong side (over the TE)....
He's bigger (6'4 255) than the scrubeenie we had there last year....I'd jam Tony on the line then turn him over to the SS with Phillips playing zone ....

Gonzo will no doubt, get his catches, but generally, TE's just don't beat you by themselves..... Get the guy a running game and he'd be a b1tch to handle... but then the pretty boy would actually have to get his paws dirty and (GASP!)learn to run block...


As for Crockett and ??? vs Brown, Rice and Porter??

Hahaha....

I do like Bartee alot... as a Free Safety.... If'n I was the coach stepping into Willie Shaws huge shoes.... I may take a look at playing Woods at corner and moving Bartee to FS.... If I remember correctly, Woods played some corner at Memphis....

KCGannonStalker
07-01-2001, 08:52 AM
Everybody knows that Darren Alexander is the only real threat we have at wide reciever, and with Sylvester Morton's season-ending calisthenic injury, we're left with a big question mark in rookie Melvin "Scoop" Minus. I hear we have some potential with the Hill brothers (Danny and Richie) in NFL Europe, but I really think it will be a few years before they mature enough to help.

If we had a veteran quarterback like Rich Gannon, it would offset some of those problems. As it sits, it really doesn't matter who is in the secondary for our opponent. The Raiders have the best secondary in NFL history right now, so I won't bother to go into a player-versus-player matchup. It's plain to see that those Raiders are the class of our AFC Central.

JOhn
07-01-2001, 09:21 AM
Originally posted by hawaiianboy
but generally, TE's just don't beat you by themselves..... Get the guy a running game and he'd be a b1tch to handle... but then the pretty boy would actually have to get his paws dirty and (GASP!)learn to run block...




Hawaiianboy,
You really should stay out of the sun so much :D
TG ISN'T most TE's, he is the TE right now, by which all others are judged! He's allready a B!tch to handle. And Pretty boy is a very Profecient blocker allready. Unfortunaly he hasn't had any one to really block for consistantly.

You can diss the others all you want, but you know as well as any of us, he is da man. ( is it your a little jelous of him?)

hawaiianboy
07-01-2001, 03:14 PM
Originally posted by JOhn


Hawaiianboy,
You really should stay out of the sun so much :D
TG ISN'T most TE's, he is the TE right now, by which all others are judged! He's allready a B!tch to handle. And Pretty boy is a very Profecient blocker allready. Unfortunaly he hasn't had any one to really block for consistantly.

You can diss the others all you want, but you know as well as any of us, he is da man. ( is it your a little jelous of him?)
===========

Jealous?
If you mean would I want him?... Hell yes I would... (I would also take Vic Riley and Hicks in a heart beat) .... He is BY FAR the premeire pass receiving TE in the NFL right now, no doubt....

Do I think he is a good blocker?... No, I feel he's average at best.... I realize KC fans have to bow to the Gonzo alter every day, but since I have better taste in teams, I can say what I feel without fear of a lightning bolt singeing my butt.....

Every great player has room for improvement and to one day reach the status of the greats gone by like Winslow, Russ Francis and Ozzie.... he'll have to improve on his blocking IMO...

I'm truly not trying to knock Gonzo as I respect his abilities.... My point was a TE rarely can beat you on his own... Give the guy a running game to keep the safeties honest and he'll be more effective IMO....


I'll give him this, homeboy knows where every onfield camera is, he musta took lessons from Deion =p....

Cannibal
07-01-2001, 03:20 PM
Originally posted by hawaiianboy
Every great player has room for improvement and to one day reach the status of the greats gone by like Winslow, Russ Francis and Ozzie.... he'll have to improve on his blocking IMO...

As long as Gonzo continues to put up record numbers, he'll be considered the best TE ever. His blocking is not going to have a whole helluva lot to do with it. He is on pace to shatter all receiving records for TE's. Barring injury, or unforeseen off the field concers he will end up as the best TE of all time IMO.

hawaiianboy
07-01-2001, 04:02 PM
Cannibal....

No doubt.... At his pace he will end up the best statistical TE of all time when he hangs them up... but from a team stand point, improving his blocking will make him a more effective TE IMO and the KC offense much better....

The Raiders also had a TE in Todd Christenson that put up a string of years with alot of receptions (95, 82, 80, 92) yet I never felt he was deserving of the "great" accolades of an Ozzie because he was a average blocker (and to be honest, he was a pompous prick) .....

I like the guy, respect the guy's immense abilities and was not trying to state any thing other than there was room for improvement that would benefit the team.... Hell, even Michael Jordan added a jump shot to his reprotoire after a few years... made him better and the team better...

Chiefs Pantalones
07-01-2001, 04:22 PM
Actually HB,

Jordan had that jumpshot the whole time, he didn't have to use it that much when he was younger, because of the big energy difference when you get older. He started to use it more as he got older because of that.

CG

did a report on MJ

Cannibal
07-01-2001, 04:23 PM
I guess I just don't see the value in having a guy with his receiving skills doing much blocking.

He should be out on patterns the vast majority of the time.

But on running plays, I suppose he could improve his blocking. But to be honest, I don't think his blocking is that bad. He has improved in that area since he was a rookie, and will probably improve further as he matures as a player.

Chiefs Pantalones
07-01-2001, 04:25 PM
HB,

Have you seen TG play that much? I don't think his blocking is that bad.

How many Chiefs games do you watch?:D

KCGannonStalker
07-01-2001, 04:34 PM
If CP had held on to Rich Gannon instead of investing the franchise's future in Elvis, Tony would have even better numbers than he does now. A veteran like Rich Gannon would have helped Tony's run blocking, as well!

~Dennis

<a href="kcgannonstalker.homestead.com">Named the #1 Kansas City Chiefs Website on the net by the <u>Margaret Mary Ray Journal</u>!!</a>

Chiefs Pantalones
07-01-2001, 04:36 PM
Gannonstalker,

First of all, do you turn every conversation into a "Gannon" conversation, and second of all, GET OVER IT!!!!!! Trent Green is our QB now!!!

CG

:D :p

Chiefs Pantalones
07-01-2001, 04:37 PM
Does Gannon play WR, TE, QB, RB, LB, S, SS, CB, on your team?:rolleyes:

KCGannonStalker
07-01-2001, 04:44 PM
Uh, Cody... Rich Gannon was the starting QB for the AFC in the last Pro Bowl.

As a matter of fact, he drilled a beautiful touchdown pass to our own Tony Hernandez who dunked it over the crossbar! He even beat out the Colts Peyton Mansfield for MVP!!

~Dennis