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View Full Version : That's it. I'm freaking done with these idiots.


Rain Man
11-18-2007, 06:33 PM
Back in the 1970s, our teams were bad. They lost games. They got soundly beaten by opponents. But you know what? I could live with it. The teams back then at least tried to win.

Now? I love this team. Love it. We've got massive talent on defense. We've got top-notch players on offense. We've got a new quarterback who can win, and we've got a potential superstar at wide receiver and legitimate superstarts at tight end and running back.

And we've got a coach who is biggest freaking idiot this side of Paul Hackett.

The last time I was this mad about a loss was against Indianapolis in 1995, when we lost home field in the playoffs because of the worst game plan, or rather lack of a game plan, in football history. And now we're repeating it on a weekly basis.

It's the fourth quarter. The score is tied. The best quarterback in the game is on the other sideline. And we freaking concede a drive? We don't even TRY to get a first down? We punt the ball to the most productive offense of the decade? Both teams had one opportunity to win the game, and our stupid, idiotic, moronic, imbecilic coaching staff VOLUNTARILY GAVE OUR CHANCE AWAY! THEY SAID, "WE DON'T WANT TO TRY TO SCORE, SO LET'S PLAY FOR A TIE AND PUNT IT PEYTON FREAKING MANNING." What sort of intellectual plant life would you have to be to do that? They voluntarily reduced our chances of winning to zero, and for no reason.

AAAAAAAAAAUUUUUUUUUGGGGGGHHHHHHHHH! I'm so mad about this that I can't stand it. They do this every freaking week. We have perhaps ten chances to score in a game, and they VOLUNTARILY give up on half of them! How does someone do this and keep their job? If I owned that team, that freaking coach-in-name-only would not get on the plane to come home. He would pay his own way back, and I would mail his office stuff to him in a box. I'd give the Arrowhead guards pepper spray and a picture of his unibrowed visage of confusion.

I can't do this any more. Just can't. This was the last straw. This was stupidity at it's finest. This was building the freaking Egyptian pyramids of stupidity. This was stupidity that will stand as a shining example of the art for the next four thousand years. Stupid scholars will study this game plan and write dissertations about it. It was miss-the-$100-question-on-Who- Wants-To-Be-A-Millionaire-after- using-all-of-your-lifelines stupid.

This is a good team. This is a strong team. This team could be very, very good if they were allowed to be. And you know what? Just trade them all. Trade them and stock up draft picks for a possible time when the stupid ownership of this team finally sells it to someone who will fire the stupid Haile Selassie president-for-life general manager and hire someone who will in turn fire the stupid "I think we get points for close losses" coaching staff, and then when those things happen maybe we can use those picks to field a competitive team. Until Herman Edwards is gone, and all photographs of his slackjawed RCA-Victor-Dog-Looking-At-Victrola face have been burned, just pile up picks and use semi-pro players, because the end result will be the same.

If I was Tony Gonzalez or Derrick Johnson or Jared Allen, I would go to Clark Hunt's office with a sleeping bag and I would not leave there until there's a regime change. Don't waste your career playing for piece of garbage idiot like Herm Edwards who can't even fathom trying to win a game.

Three drives! At least three drives where we just intentionally folded up. Didn't even try! "Eh, who cares? Just run for a few yards and punt it. Who cares?" Did these people never watch Joe Montana in the Super Bowl against Cincinnati? Do they not understand that the team with the most points wins? Where is the understanding here, people! Where?!?!?!?!

I HATE YOU, HERMAN EDWARDS! HATE! HATE, HATE, HATE! No, no. It's more than hate! Far more than hate. It's outright despisal!

YOU PLAY...TO WIN...THE GAME! YOU PLAY...TO WIN...THE GAME!

I don't know if I can communicate this any more clearly. This coach has to be removed from power, using any means possible. I'm 44 years old. I don't want to have to concede five more seasons of giving away wins while I wait. He has to go now! NOW! NOW!!!!

the Talking Can
11-18-2007, 06:37 PM
I was told by very intelligent posters that it is crazy to play to win.

the Talking Can
11-18-2007, 06:37 PM
Herm has lost Rain Man.

Hydrae
11-18-2007, 06:39 PM
Wow, quite the rant.

I understand your feelings all too well but for me the bottom line is this...

will you still be posting here on the Planet while you wait for heck to freeze over? I can handle the ineptitude at 1 Arrowhead Drive as long as I have your posts to help keep me sane.

You can hate Herm and Carl and Mike all you want but DON"T LEAVE US!!!

RJ
11-18-2007, 06:39 PM
Well, I didn't see the game but I must say Kevin makes a compelling argument. HERM MUST GO!!!!!

Just hopping on the bandwagon before it fills up.

Demonpenz
11-18-2007, 06:40 PM
Run the ball stop the run wins games

Zouk
11-18-2007, 06:40 PM
The draw happened at 7:08 in the game on 3rd and 18 on our own 37.

You could use as many caps as you want, but that play call is 100% standard in the league nowadays. Just about every team would do the same. The only ones who wouldn't either have Tom Brady at QB or are terrible.

88TG88
11-18-2007, 06:40 PM
Well, I didn't see the game but I must say Kevin makes a compelling argument. CARL MUST GO!!!!!

Just hopping on the bandwagon before it fills up.
FYP

'Hamas' Jenkins
11-18-2007, 06:40 PM
Welcome to the darkside, Rain Man. There is no return.

Coach
11-18-2007, 06:41 PM
Jeez, that's so frazod-like rant, only cleaner version.

MadMax
11-18-2007, 06:42 PM
Herm has lost Rain Man.




ROFL Yea I'd say so :)

blueballs
11-18-2007, 06:44 PM
I don't feel this way at all
but that is the best gripe
I have ever read -rep

JimNasium
11-18-2007, 06:44 PM
Nipples.

KCFalcon59
11-18-2007, 06:45 PM
The draw happened at 7:08 in the game on 3rd and 18 on our own 37.

You could use as many caps as you want, but that play call is 100% standard in the league nowadays. Just about every team would do the same. The only ones who wouldn't either have Tom Brady at QB or are terrible.

It was the 1st down that killed that drive. 3rd down was just giving up.

Zouk
11-18-2007, 06:47 PM
It was the 1st down that killed that drive. 3rd down was just giving up.

Yeah, that's what happened all year. Our O-line, fullback, and Dunn getting physically manhandled.

It's hard to call plays when the players get their ass kicked physically on most downs.

Rain Man
11-18-2007, 06:47 PM
The draw happened at 7:08 in the game on 3rd and 18 on our own 37.

You could use as many caps as you want, but that play call is 100% standard in the league nowadays. Just about every team would do the same. The only ones who wouldn't either have Tom Brady at QB or are terrible.

Balderdash. There was seven minutes left in the game, and we were going against a strong offense. If you aren't going to try to win the game then, you simply aren't trying to win the game, period. We had one drive to win, and the coaches forced the team to give up. They in essence told the players, "You can't do it, so we're not even going to let you try."

Losing is inevitable sometimes. I can handle losing. What I can't handle is giving up without a fight and that is the mantra of Herman Edwards.

jjjayb
11-18-2007, 06:47 PM
I couldn't have said it better myself rainmain. It amazes me that the guy who is most famous for his "you play to win the game" quote continually fails to live up to his words. I don't understand the mentality of a coach who thinks the offenses job is to just get field position. I'll be glad when this experiment is over and Cowher takes over.

stevieray
11-18-2007, 06:49 PM
Kirk: Shields up!
Sulu:Not responding, Captain!
Bones: Damn it Jim, he's a fan. not a friggin machine!
Kirk:Scotty?
Scotty: I caan't dew anything capn, she's not holding power!
Spock:It's only Dr.Doo...err Logical...

the Talking Can
11-18-2007, 06:49 PM
Don't let em bring you down Rain Man.

You're right.

DMAC
11-18-2007, 06:50 PM
I could give two shits about the Chiefs right now.

Mizzou is giving me the best sports experience I have ever had.

I was more upset after seeing W.V. pass Mizzou in the BCS rankings than I was to see that winnable game blown by piss poor play calls.

Demonpenz
11-18-2007, 06:50 PM
waaaaa we came really close to beating the world champs. Waaaaa

Claynus
11-18-2007, 06:52 PM
You're not close to being done. You'll be a Chiefs fan until you DIE.

Psyko Tek
11-18-2007, 06:52 PM
two plays they called way too much
that receiver screen
and that mutha****in 3rd a way to ****in' much draw
jebus I hates our coaching staff

Zouk
11-18-2007, 06:52 PM
Balderdash. There was seven minutes left in the game, and we were going against a strong offense. If you aren't going to try to win the game then, you simply aren't trying to win the game, period. We had one drive to win, and the coaches forced the team to give up. They in essence told the players, "You can't do it, so we're not even going to let you try."

Losing is inevitable sometimes. I can handle losing. What I can't handle is giving up without a fight and that is the mantra of Herman Edwards.


That strong offense had no Marvin Harrison and both starting offensive tackles were out. They scored 10 points in 3 and a half quarters, with 3 of those points coming off a 10 years field after the Mathis strip sack.

The chance of our offense converting 3rd and 18 on the road is less than 10%. The coaches have numbers on all this. And that's why ALL the coaches in the league do the same thing.

Skip Towne
11-18-2007, 06:52 PM
Hey, Kevin, what did you think of our last "drive" before the half?

Coach
11-18-2007, 06:54 PM
Hey, Kevin, what did you think of our last "drive" before the half?

Christ almighty, don't get me started on it. This game was lost at the end of the first half. "Points? Points? Don't talk to me about points!?" That must be Herm's motto, because running over a minute and 15 seconds off the clock at the end of the half for the second week in a row, without trying to score is definitely NOT showing me that "You play to win the game."

BigMeatballDave
11-18-2007, 06:57 PM
I cannot recall Rainman ever going off like this. He's so mild-mannered, this is somewhat disturbing. More evidence Herm and Carl's ineptitude has reached critical mass...

jjjayb
11-18-2007, 06:59 PM
waaaaa we came really close to beating the world champs. Waaaaa

Ohh yippeee! We barely lost another one. We may be losing games but we're keeping them close and exciting! Yeah! That makes losing so much better! We may not have a great record, but at least we kept games close! Woopee!! Yeah!!!! Go herm!!!!

MadMax
11-18-2007, 06:59 PM
Kirk: Shields up!
Sulu:Not responding, Captain!
Bones: Damn it Jim, he's a fan. not a friggin machine!
Kirk:Scotty?
Scotty: I caan't dew anything capn, she's not holding power!
Spock:It's only Dr.Doo...err Logical...



ROFL

KCFalcon59
11-18-2007, 07:01 PM
Yeah, that's what happened all year. Our O-line, fullback, and Dunn getting physically manhandled.

It's hard to call plays when the players get their ass kicked physically on most downs.

At that point in the game they were expecting a run. We should have either play actioned or rolled Croyle out to throw a pass which he did a good job of during the game.

stevieray
11-18-2007, 07:01 PM
I cannot recall Rainman ever going off like this. He's so mild-mannered, this is somewhat disturbing.

thus the motive behind my reply...

gblowfish
11-18-2007, 07:07 PM
Beat That Spread!
Beat That Spread!

Rain Man
11-18-2007, 07:12 PM
We had 12 drives in this game. 12 chance to score. Let's look at them.

Drive 1

1st Quarter expand [+] collapse [-]
Kansas City Chiefs at 15:00
4-A.Vinatieri kicks 60 yards from IND 30 to KC 10. 80-J.Webb to KC 33 for 23 yards (52-R.Guzman, 50-R.Boiman).
1-10-KC 33 (14:55) 31-P.Holmes left end to KC 37 for 4 yards (99-E.Johnson).
2-6-KC 37 (14:19) 31-P.Holmes up the middle to KC 42 for 5 yards (58-G.Brackett).
3-1-KC 42 (13:37) 21-K.Smith left tackle to KC 43 for 1 yard (99-E.Johnson, 58-G.Brackett).
1-10-KC 43 (13:02) 12-B.Croyle pass short right to 82-D.Bowe pushed ob at KC 48 for 5 yards (50-R.Boiman).
2-5-KC 48 (12:31) 31-P.Holmes right end to IND 49 for 3 yards (98-R.Mathis). PENALTY on KC-60-C.Terry, Offensive Holding, 10 yards, enforced at KC 48 - No Play.
2-15-KC 38 (12:09) (Shotgun) 31-P.Holmes up the middle to KC 41 for 3 yards (21-B.Sanders).
3-12-KC 41 (11:24) (Shotgun) 12-B.Croyle pass short middle to 31-P.Holmes to KC 42 for 1 yard (28-M.Jackson).
4-11-KC 42 (10:47) 2-D.Colquitt punts 29 yards to IND 29, Center-51-J.Darche, fair catch by 34-T.Rushing.

Drive went well until the holding call, and then Herm freaking gave up! Called a run on 2nd and 15, and then a 0% short pass on third down.

Grade: F


Drive 2

Kansas City Chiefs at 07:59
1-10-KC 39 (7:59) 31-P.Holmes up the middle to KC 41 for 2 yards (91-J.Thomas, 79-R.Brock).
2-8-KC 41 (7:15) 31-P.Holmes right end to KC 43 for 2 yards (21-B.Sanders, 98-R.Mathis).
3-6-KC 43 (6:29) (Shotgun) 12-B.Croyle pass incomplete short middle to 82-D.Bowe.
4-6-KC 43 (6:25) 2-D.Colquitt punts 44 yards to IND 13, Center-51-J.Darche, fair catch by 34-T.Rushing.

3rd down, went for a short pass in front of the first down marker. Anyone remember this? Someone screwed up the route, because all four Chiefs receivers ran short routes into the middle of the field. Probably an execution error, because if the play was designed that way, I'm going to ram my car packed with explosives into Solari's office.

Grade: C


Drive 3
Kansas City Chiefs at 01:34
1-10-KC 28 (1:34) 12-B.Croyle pass short middle to 88-T.Gonzalez to KC 36 for 8 yards (21-B.Sanders).
2-2-KC 36 (:47) 31-P.Holmes up the middle to KC 46 for 10 yards (50-R.Boiman).
1-10-KC 46 (:11) 12-B.Croyle pass incomplete short right to 31-P.Holmes.
2-10-KC 46 (:05) (Shotgun) 31-P.Holmes up the middle to IND 48 for 6 yards (28-M.Jackson, 21-B.Sanders).
END QUARTER 1
2nd Quarter expand [+] collapse [-]
Kansas City Chiefs continues ...
3-4-IND 48 (15:00) 12-B.Croyle pass short left to 84-K.Wilson to IND 42 for 6 yards (54-F.Keiaho).
1-10-IND 42 (14:23) 12-B.Croyle pass short left to 82-D.Bowe pushed ob at IND 35 for 7 yards (50-R.Boiman).
2-3-IND 35 (14:02) 31-P.Holmes up the middle to IND 32 for 3 yards (54-F.Keiaho).
1-10-IND 32 (13:17) 12-B.Croyle pass short right to 82-D.Bowe pushed ob at IND 25 for 7 yards (21-B.Sanders, 26-K.Hayden).
2-3-IND 25 (12:41) PENALTY on KC-89-J.Dunn, False Start, 5 yards, enforced at IND 25 - No Play.
2-8-IND 30 (12:17) 31-P.Holmes left tackle pushed ob at IND 26 for 4 yards (41-A.Bethea).
3-4-IND 26 (11:44) 31-P.Holmes left end to IND 25 for 1 yard (58-G.Brackett).
4-3-IND 25 (11:07) 6-D.Rayner 43 yard field goal is No Good, Wide Right, Center-51-J.Darche, Holder-2-D.Colquitt.

I'm not averse on the occasional run on 2nd and long, but WE ALWAYS DO IT! ALWAYS! It's a give-up play in this system. We did it twice on this drive, and it managed to work once just because we made a third-and-intermdiate.

Grade: D-

Drive 4
Kansas City Chiefs at 10:57
1-10-IND 37 (10:57) 31-P.Holmes up the middle to IND 32 for 5 yards (26-K.Hayden, 50-R.Boiman).
2-5-IND 32 (10:20) 12-B.Croyle pass short right to 87-E.Kennison to IND 28 for 4 yards (26-K.Hayden).
3-1-IND 28 (9:41) 31-P.Holmes left end to IND 29 for -1 yards (26-K.Hayden).
4-2-IND 29 (9:00) 6-D.Rayner 47 yard field goal is GOOD, Center-51-J.Darche, Holder-2-D.Colquitt.
KC 3 IND 0 Plays: 4 Possession: 2:02

No real problem here. It didn't work because of execution.

Grade: A

Drive 5
Kansas City Chiefs at 07:26
1-10-IND 49 (7:26) 12-B.Croyle pass short right to 80-J.Webb to IND 44 for 5 yards (26-K.Hayden, 54-F.Keiaho).
2-5-IND 44 (6:44) 12-B.Croyle pass short right to 88-T.Gonzalez to IND 31 for 13 yards (21-B.Sanders, 41-A.Bethea).
1-10-IND 31 (5:57) 12-B.Croyle pass incomplete deep right to 18-S.Parker.
2-10-IND 31 (5:49) 31-P.Holmes up the middle to IND 28 for 3 yards (99-E.Johnson).
3-7-IND 28 (5:08) (Shotgun) 12-B.Croyle pass incomplete short left to 82-D.Bowe.
4-7-IND 28 (5:02) 6-D.Rayner 45 yard field goal is No Good, Hit Left Upright, Center-51-J.Darche, Holder-2-D.Colquitt.


AUUUUUUUGHHHHH! No more runs on second and long! I'm not kidding! Don't ever do this again!

And then let's follow it up with a pass route short of the marker.

Grade: F-

Drive 6
Kansas City Chiefs at 04:04
1-10-KC 22 (4:04) 31-P.Holmes right tackle to KC 24 for 2 yards (54-F.Keiaho, 98-R.Mathis).
2-8-KC 24 (3:29) (Shotgun) 31-P.Holmes up the middle to KC 27 for 3 yards (79-R.Brock).
3-5-KC 27 (2:48) (Shotgun) 12-B.Croyle sacked at KC 20 for -7 yards (98-R.Mathis). FUMBLES (98-R.Mathis), RECOVERED by IND-96-K.Dawson at KC 23. 96-K.Dawson to KC 13 for 10 yards (60-C.Terry). Four sack yards.


I'm beyond words at this point.

Grade: F-

Drive 7
Kansas City Chiefs at 01:18
4-A.Vinatieri kicks 63 yards from IND 30 to KC 7. 80-J.Webb to KC 23 for 16 yards (95-D.Reid).
1-10-KC 23 (1:15) (Shotgun) 21-K.Smith up the middle to KC 27 for 4 yards (54-F.Keiaho, 98-R.Mathis).
2-6-KC 27 (:42) 21-K.Smith up the middle to KC 32 for 5 yards (96-K.Dawson).
END QUARTER 2


You have timeouts. You have a strong-armed quarterback. Why not take one hail mary downfield just to see what happens? The odds of something good happening are better than those of something bad happening.
Grade: D

Drive 8
Kansas City Chiefs at 14:09
1-10-KC 34 (14:09) 12-B.Croyle pass short left to 82-D.Bowe to KC 34 for no gain (28-M.Jackson, 50-R.Boiman).
2-10-KC 34 (13:33) 12-B.Croyle scrambles up the middle to KC 38 for 4 yards (54-F.Keiaho). PENALTY on KC-76-J.Welbourn, Offensive Holding, 10 yards, enforced at KC 34 - No Play.
2-20-KC 24 (13:08) (Shotgun) 31-P.Holmes up the middle to KC 27 for 3 yards (21-B.Sanders).
3-17-KC 27 (12:31) 12-B.Croyle pass incomplete short middle to 31-P.Holmes.
4-17-KC 27 (12:22) 2-D.Colquitt punts 44 yards to IND 29, Center-51-J.Darche. 34-T.Rushing to IND 36 for 7 yards (34-T.Brackenridge).

:banghead: :banghead: :banghead:
Grade: F-

Drive 9

Kansas City Chiefs at 07:17
4-A.Vinatieri kicks 70 yards from IND 30 to KC 0. 80-J.Webb to KC 23 for 23 yards (60-J.Charleston, 50-R.Boiman).
1-10-KC 23 (7:12) 31-P.Holmes left tackle to KC 25 for 2 yards (50-R.Boiman).
2-8-KC 25 (6:35) 21-K.Smith left tackle to KC 27 for 2 yards (54-F.Keiaho, 91-J.Thomas).
3-6-KC 27 (5:49) (Shotgun) 12-B.Croyle pass short left to 21-K.Smith to KC 34 for 7 yards (58-G.Brackett).
1-10-KC 34 (5:08) 12-B.Croyle pass incomplete short left to 18-S.Parker.
2-10-KC 34 (5:05) 12-B.Croyle pass incomplete short left to 82-D.Bowe. PENALTY on IND-79-R.Brock, Defensive Offside, 5 yards, enforced at KC 34 - No Play.
2-5-KC 39 (5:01) 12-B.Croyle pass short right to 84-K.Wilson to KC 43 for 4 yards (54-F.Keiaho, 26-K.Hayden).
3-1-KC 43 (4:13) (Shotgun) 12-B.Croyle pass short left to 82-D.Bowe to IND 45 for 12 yards (28-M.Jackson).
1-10-IND 45 (3:34) 21-K.Smith up the middle to IND 40 for 5 yards (54-F.Keiaho, 97-Q.Pitcock).
2-5-IND 40 (2:56) 12-B.Croyle pass deep middle to 88-T.Gonzalez to IND 22 for 18 yards (41-A.Bethea).
1-10-IND 22 (2:15) (Shotgun) 21-K.Smith up the middle to IND 19 for 3 yards (95-D.Reid, 58-G.Brackett).
2-7-IND 19 (1:34) (Shotgun) 12-B.Croyle pass incomplete deep left to 88-T.Gonzalez.
3-7-IND 19 (1:29) 12-B.Croyle pass deep right to 82-D.Bowe for 19 yards, TOUCHDOWN. Indianapolis challenged the pass completion ruling, and the play was Upheld. (Timeout #1 at 01:22.)
6-D.Rayner extra point is GOOD, Center-51-J.Darche, Holder-2-D.Colquitt.
KC 10 IND 10 Plays: 11 Possession: 5:55

Take note. Take note of what happened on second down. Take note of what happened on third down. Now look at the outcome.
Grade: A

Drive 10

Kansas City Chiefs at 14:53
1-10-KC 37 (14:53) 31-P.Holmes left end to KC 35 for -2 yards (28-M.Jackson).
2-12-KC 35 (14:17) 12-B.Croyle pass incomplete short right to 82-D.Bowe.
3-12-KC 35 (14:11) (Shotgun) 12-B.Croyle pass short middle to 21-K.Smith to KC 46 for 11 yards (41-A.Bethea).
4-1-KC 46 (13:25) 2-D.Colquitt punts 30 yards to IND 24, Center-51-J.Darche, fair catch by 34-T.Rushing.

I'm not going to complain about this one.
Grade: B

Drive 11


Kansas City Chiefs at 10:59
1-10-KC 24 (10:59) 31-P.Holmes left tackle to KC 24 for no gain (58-G.Brackett).
2-10-KC 24 (10:23) 12-B.Croyle pass short right to 88-T.Gonzalez to KC 31 for 7 yards (26-K.Hayden, 54-F.Keiaho).
3-3-KC 31 (9:39) (Shotgun) 12-B.Croyle pass short middle to 82-D.Bowe to KC 45 for 14 yards (41-A.Bethea).
1-10-KC 45 (8:58) 21-K.Smith left end to KC 40 for -5 yards (91-J.Thomas).
2-15-KC 40 (8:18) 12-B.Croyle sacked at KC 37 for -3 yards (79-R.Brock).
3-18-KC 37 (7:41) (Shotgun) 21-K.Smith left tackle to KC 39 for 2 yards (26-K.Hayden, 58-G.Brackett).
4-16-KC 39 (7:08) 2-D.Colquitt punts 37 yards to IND 24, Center-51-J.Darche. 34-T.Rushing to IND 33 for 9 yards (97-K.Fox).

Bad drive overall, and then the coaches gave up.
Grade: D

Drive 12



Kansas City Chiefs at 00:03
4-A.Vinatieri kicks 30 yards from IND 30 to KC 40, out of bounds.
1-10-KC 40 (:03) (Shotgun) 12-B.Croyle pass short left to 21-K.Smith to IND 44 for 16 yards. Lateral to 18-S.Parker to IND 37 for 7 yards. FUMBLES, touched at IND 39, ball out of bounds at IND 39.
END GAME

Didn't even throw it long here. Idiots.
Grade: F-



I count six drives where our offensive play calling essentially conceded the drive. Six drives out of 11, if you don't count the last three seconds of the game. Other teams try to score 11 times, and we try to score six times, and we're supposed to win?

Fire Herman Edwards tonight, Clark. Let Gunther finish out the season.

Claynus
11-18-2007, 07:14 PM
Wow. Passing on second down seems to be a good thing.

Logical
11-18-2007, 07:15 PM
This may be the best rant ever, Dole will be studying this rant for pointers.

Job well done Kevin.

Rain Man
11-18-2007, 07:18 PM
I couldn't have said it better myself rainmain. It amazes me that the guy who is most famous for his "you play to win the game" quote continually fails to live up to his words. I don't understand the mentality of a coach who thinks the offenses job is to just get field position. I'll be glad when this experiment is over and Cowher takes over.

Yes! That's a perfect diagnosis of it. They seem to think that it's fine to get three extra yards.

And sure, most of the time we won't convert a third and long. But sometimes we will, and that drive could produce a score. And even if we don't, we could possibly get more yards on a passing play. This running on third and long is so...so...Paul Hackett that it makes me want to scream. It's a nightmare that I had hoped was over.

Coogs
11-18-2007, 07:18 PM
I'm not averse on the occasional run on 2nd and long, but WE ALWAYS DO IT! ALWAYS! It's a give-up play in this system. We did it twice on this drive, and it managed to work once just because we made a third-and-intermdiate.

Grade: D-

Solari was reading the Planet this week. More than once this week it was recommended that we were suppose to run in passing situations. ;)

Zouk
11-18-2007, 07:19 PM
You 're killing me.

You're telling me we can't run on 1st and 10, and then we can't run on 2nd and long (which most of the time was after an incomplete on 1st down). It's always we need to throw throw throw.

Robert Mathis vs. Terry / Turley is a mismatch. If we throw a lot, we get strip sacks. This is proven over and over again. We try to control the number of situations in which our passer is exposed. That's how we keep a game close when we are clearly outmatched by the Super Bowl champs on the road.

Claynus
11-18-2007, 07:20 PM
The running on third and long isn't hard to explain. Herm and company are so afraid of a sack on second and long, they'd rather run it and face third and 7.

At times like these I think it's best just to accept the fact that unless we have a dominant running game, the offense won't succeed while Herm is here.

Demonpenz
11-18-2007, 07:20 PM
Protect the ball, play D, run the ball.

jjjayb
11-18-2007, 07:24 PM
You 're killing me.

You're telling me we can't run on 1st and 10, and then we can't run on 2nd and long (which most of the time was after an incomplete on 1st down). It's always we need to throw throw throw.

Robert Mathis vs. Terry / Turley is a mismatch. If we throw a lot, we get strip sacks. This is proven over and over again. We try to control the number of situations in which our passer is exposed. That's how we keep a game close when we are clearly outmatched by the Super Bowl champs on the road.

It's called "mixing it up" Key words aren't "can't run on 1st and 10 or 2nd and long" they are "can't ALWAYS run on 1st and 10 and 2nd and long." Big difference between the two. We are just too frigging predictable. Way too easy to defend when you are so predictable.

Rain Man
11-18-2007, 07:25 PM
You 're killing me.

You're telling me we can't run on 1st and 10, and then we can't run on 2nd and long (which most of the time was after an incomplete on 1st down). It's always we need to throw throw throw.

Robert Mathis vs. Terry / Turley is a mismatch. If we throw a lot, we get strip sacks. This is proven over and over again. We try to control the number of situations in which our passer is exposed. That's how we keep a game close when we are clearly outmatched by the Super Bowl champs on the road.


Once in a while. All I ask is that once in a while we try to keep a drive going if first down isn't successful. We have teams putting 8 or 9 in the box on 2nd and long and 3rd and long now. Just one time in four or five if we don't care about winning, just one time in four or five, let's try a pass in a passing situation. There's a reason that they're called passing situations. They aren't supposed to be called prep-for-punting situations. They're passing situations. Let's give it a whirl and see what happens.

jjjayb
11-18-2007, 07:26 PM
Protect the ball, play D, run the ball.

And that whole "protecting the ball" has worked out how well so far this year? How many turnovers have we had this year?

alanm
11-18-2007, 07:26 PM
I don't know what's wrong with you people. The Chiefs are simply not a good team. Lot's of young talented players on the defensive side of the ball. But inconsistent. That's what young players are.. inconsistent. We need serious help on the offensive line. Croyle may win a few games down the stretch but he may also cause a couple of losses as well. We've got to win out to go 10-6 and that's not going to happen.

Hydrae
11-18-2007, 07:26 PM
You 're killing me.

You're telling me we can't run on 1st and 10, and then we can't run on 2nd and long (which most of the time was after an incomplete on 1st down). It's always we need to throw throw throw.

Robert Mathis vs. Terry / Turley is a mismatch. If we throw a lot, we get strip sacks. This is proven over and over again. We try to control the number of situations in which our passer is exposed. That's how we keep a game close when we are clearly outmatched by the Super Bowl champs on the road.


So roll the QB out away from Mathis. This is simple stuff, not rocket science or even brain surgery.

Rain Man
11-18-2007, 07:27 PM
Protect the ball, play D, run the ball.

Step Four: Score. You're missing Step Four, and at the end of the day, Step Four is really the most important step of them all. Steps One through Three are great, but Step Four is really where you get most of your wins.

Demonpenz
11-18-2007, 07:28 PM
And that whole "protecting the ball" has worked out how well so far this year? How many turnovers have we had this year?


we have had way too many turnovers. you can't win when you turn it over

Demonpenz
11-18-2007, 07:29 PM
scoring is nice, but it doesn't matter if you can't stop anyone

Coogs
11-18-2007, 07:29 PM
Protect the ball, play D, run the ball.

I sort of agree with you up to this point in the game...

Drive 11


Kansas City Chiefs at 10:59
1-10-KC 24 (10:59) 31-P.Holmes left tackle to KC 24 for no gain (58-G.Brackett).
2-10-KC 24 (10:23) 12-B.Croyle pass short right to 88-T.Gonzalez to KC 31 for 7 yards (26-K.Hayden, 54-F.Keiaho).
3-3-KC 31 (9:39) (Shotgun) 12-B.Croyle pass short middle to 82-D.Bowe to KC 45 for 14 yards (41-A.Bethea).
1-10-KC 45 (8:58) 21-K.Smith left end to KC 40 for -5 yards (91-J.Thomas).
2-15-KC 40 (8:18) 12-B.Croyle sacked at KC 37 for -3 yards (79-R.Brock).
3-18-KC 37 (7:41) (Shotgun) 21-K.Smith left tackle to KC 39 for 2 yards (26-K.Hayden, 58-G.Brackett).
4-16-KC 39 (7:08) 2-D.Colquitt punts 37 yards to IND 24, Center-51-J.Darche. 34-T.Rushing to IND 33 for 9 yards (97-K.Fox).


... to this point, the plan had worked to perfection. And on drive 9, Croyle had just taken us down the field for a tying TD with the Indy crowd pumped from the Colts just taking the lead at 10-3.

Croyle just completes two passes... one to Gonzo on 2nd and 10 for 7 yards, and one to Bowe for 14 yards on 3rd and 3. Take the leash off the young QB and roll with him. Win or lose with him at this point in the game.


Oh... and BTW... I enjoyed this game more than any game I have seen in the past 2 years. Too bad we didn't finish the job.

Hydrae
11-18-2007, 07:29 PM
scoring is nice, but it doesn't matter if you can't stop anyone


If you stop everyone but don't score it won't matter either. :rolleyes:

Rain Man
11-18-2007, 07:30 PM
I don't know what's wrong with you people. The Chiefs are simply not a good team. Lot's of young talented players on the defensive side of the ball. But inconsistent. That's what young players are.. inconsistent. We need serious help on the offensive line. Croyle may win a few games down the stretch but he may also cause a couple of losses as well. We've got to win out to go 10-6 and that's not going to happen.

Y'know, I disagree. I think this is a really good team. This defense is for real, and the offense could be really productive. Bowe and Gonzalez are pass-catching machines, and to be honest, I think this o-line can pass-block. Build this offense around the pass. Let the kid throw the ball until they back off the run.

Claynus
11-18-2007, 07:31 PM
to be honest, I think this o-line can pass-block. .

Terry can't, and the RG situation is a mess.

And we can't run block.

We're just not going to be a productive offense if we can't run the ball consistently.

That's the real issue. Asking Huard or Brodie or any quarterback to carry a team without a running game is a tall task.

Even Peyton Manning struggled without a running game today.

stevieray
11-18-2007, 07:32 PM
Y'know, I disagree. I think this is a really good team. This defense is for real, and the offense could be really productive. Bowe and Gonzalez are pass-catching machines, and to be honest, I think this o-line can pass-block. Build this offense around the pass. Let the kid throw the ball until they back off the run.

I mean it!!!!

I'm really done with these idiots!

jjjayb
11-18-2007, 07:34 PM
we have had way too many turnovers. you can't win when you turn it over

Exactly my point. If we are turning it over too much to win playing conservatively, why not open it up? At least then you may have some points to go with those turnovers.

I'm not surprised at our turnovers though. We are too predictable. Defenses know exactly what we are doing because we call the same stupid plays week after week. We are way too easy to defend. 2nd and long? They're D is going to play the run because they know we are too scared to actually pass and try to pick up the first down. 1st down? Play the run. Stack 8 in the box. There's an 90% chance we are running the ball right up the middle. It' ridiculous. Our offense isn't good enough to hamstring them with this ridiculous predictable play calling. Our Defense isn't good enough to play this conservatively. We have a very good defense now. Not a great defense. If it was a great Defense this might work. It isn't, so quit running the offense like we have a great Defense.

stumppy
11-18-2007, 07:34 PM
He should be fired nice and quietly. Let it be known that it just was best we went our seperate ways.

With any luck one of our division rivals will pick him up as their head coach. Maybe the dolts will need a knew HC soon. Or, perhaps the doncos.

Zouk
11-18-2007, 07:35 PM
Once in a while. All I ask is that once in a while we try to keep a drive going if first down isn't successful. We have teams putting 8 or 9 in the box on 2nd and long and 3rd and long now. Just one time in four or five if we don't care about winning, just one time in four or five, let's try a pass in a passing situation. There's a reason that they're called passing situations. They aren't supposed to be called prep-for-punting situations. They're passing situations. Let's give it a whirl and see what happens.


I hear you, and we will see it more in other games. This was Brodie's first game against the Super Bowl champs on the road. They are one of the top 5 pass defenses in the league.

But the Colts were not putting 8 in the box. They kept their safeties deep. The fact is that the other guys are physically manhandling us with 7 guys - that's what's been happening all year. People want to blame playcalling, but there's really nothing you can call when the guys up front get physically manhandled.

We were 15 point underdogs in the game. The Colts have lost only 2 meaningful games in the RCA dome since 2005. Once to the Super bowl champ Steelers in the 2005 playoffs (a game with lots of weird plays) and once this year to the Pats in a close game.

But we likely would have won without the Mathis strip sack and with a few field goal makes. Not definitely, but probably. That's pretty good. If we come out throwing the ball, I know we would have turned the ball over a lot more and would not have had as good a chance to win. That's what the percentages show.

CoMoChief
11-18-2007, 07:36 PM
The last time I was this mad about a loss was against Indianapolis in 1995, when we lost home field in the playoffs because of the worst game plan, or rather lack of a game plan, in football history. And now we're repeating it on a weekly basis.

That game plan was indeed bad, but we lost that game because of a kicker whos name shall not be mentioned.

Demonpenz
11-18-2007, 07:38 PM
3 things can happen when you throw the ball 2 of them bad. run the ball punt and play Defense. If you can't stop the other team you don't really have any business winning anyway.

jjjayb
11-18-2007, 07:40 PM
Terry can't, and the RG situation is a mess.

And we can't run block.

We're just not going to be a productive offense if we can't run the ball consistently.

That's the real issue. Asking Huard or Brodie or any quarterback to carry a team without a running game is a tall task.

Even Peyton Manning struggled without a running game today.


You can't run the ball being this predictable. It's making our Line even worse than what it should be. If we had a dominant line and could impose our will on people then sure, just keep running it down their throats. We don't. It's like Herm/solari are calling plays for a team they wish we had. They haven't figured out how to adjust to what players we do have on the field. It's like watching kindergarteners try to manage a game.

Simplex3
11-18-2007, 07:40 PM
Yeah, that's what happened all year. Our O-line, fullback, and Dunn getting physically manhandled.

It's hard to call plays when the players get their ass kicked physically on most downs.
You could start by recognizing the fact and stop trying to run it up the middle on first down EVERY TIME.

jjjayb
11-18-2007, 07:44 PM
You could start by recognizing the fact and stop trying to run it up the middle on first down EVERY TIME.

What's the quote about doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different outcome?

Rain Man
11-18-2007, 07:45 PM
I mean it!!!!

I'm really done with these idiots!


I need Chiefs methadone. Bad.

Zouk
11-18-2007, 07:46 PM
You could start by recognizing the fact and stop trying to run it up the middle on first down EVERY TIME.

But if we throw it we expose the horrible pass blocking. And the results of bad blocking on passes are much worse! Remember the 3rd quarter of the Broncos game. There's a risk/reward calculation here.

jjjayb
11-18-2007, 07:46 PM
"The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and
expecting different results. ”

-Benjamin Franklin

Rain Man
11-18-2007, 07:47 PM
That game plan was indeed bad, but we lost that game because of a kicker whos name shall not be mentioned.

Certainly that was an issue, but I actually blame Paul Hackett more. Paul Hackett is, in my opinion, the biggest villain in Chiefs history. Herman Edwards is a two-bit despot destroying a backwater jungle country. Paul Hackett brought down the British Empire.

However, I still have a patriotic need to free my backwater jungle country.

JimNasium
11-18-2007, 07:48 PM
Nipples?

Skip Towne
11-18-2007, 07:48 PM
Once in a while. All I ask is that once in a while we try to keep a drive going if first down isn't successful. We have teams putting 8 or 9 in the box on 2nd and long and 3rd and long now. Just one time in four or five if we don't care about winning, just one time in four or five, let's try a pass in a passing situation. There's a reason that they're called passing situations. They aren't supposed to be called prep-for-punting situations. They're passing situations. Let's give it a whirl and see what happens.
I love your new avatar. You're quite an artist.

headsnap
11-18-2007, 07:48 PM
3 things can happen when you throw the ball 2 of them bad. run the ball punt and play Defense. If you can't stop the other team you don't really have any business winning anyway.
That quote always puzzled me. there's actually four things and the 4th is good.



That makes it 50/50...

Demonpenz
11-18-2007, 07:49 PM
oh's no trying to pound the rock and be physical not that *gasp*

jjjayb
11-18-2007, 07:49 PM
But if we throw it we expose the horrible pass blocking. And the results of bad blocking on passes are much worst! Remember the 3rd quarter of the Broncos game. There's a risk/reward calculation here.

So instead we almost always run it on 1st and 2nd downs which leads to almost always throwing it on 3rd down. Which leads to the D teeing up on us on 3rd down passing situations which makes our pass blocking all that much worse. Yep, makes sense to me. :shake:

Rain Man
11-18-2007, 07:50 PM
My issue is not so much with the run/pass balance as it is with the fact that we play our entire offensive game within about 6 yards of the line of scrimmage. We do nothing to push the defense back, so it doesn't matter if we're running or passing. They just plant themselves three yards off the line and play both.

Demonpenz
11-18-2007, 07:50 PM
That quote always puzzled me. there's actually four things and the 4th is good.



That makes it 50/50...


It's not even close to 50/50. especially you have a rookie quarterback who is dum and it is a hostle envirement. Kick it away place defense. man people are dense

CoMoChief
11-18-2007, 07:51 PM
3 things can happen when you throw the ball 2 of them bad. run the ball punt and play Defense. If you can't stop the other team you don't really have any business winning anyway.
and if you can't move the damn ball you don't deserve to win either. A RB can fumble the ball just as easily as a QB can get picked off. You move the chains by gaining a lot on first down. We can't run the ball worth a shit. We all know this but we try to do it anyway. Then we run it on every first down and it just gets more and more predictable making the running game that much worse as teams just stack the box with a shitload of people. Throw the ball around. Look what NE does. They don't run the ball all that much, they score ****ing points and they play defense. YOU CAN DO BOTH, YOU KNOW....IT IS INDEED POSSIBLE.

Rain Man
11-18-2007, 07:51 PM
I love your new avatar. You're quite an artist.

Thanks. The stick man represents death.

Zouk
11-18-2007, 07:52 PM
So instead we almost always run it on 1st and 2nd downs which leads to almost always throwing it on 3rd down. Which leads to the D teeing up on us on 3rd down passing situations which makes our pass blocking all that much worse. Yep, makes sense to me. :shake:


Thus....the dreaded draw!

There's really no good options when you're getting your ass beat physically.

But we still were close to being only the 3rd team to win a meaningful game in that place in the last 3 years, and the other two were Super Bowl Champs and they won close.

headsnap
11-18-2007, 07:52 PM
It's not even close to 50/50. especially you have a rookie quarterback who is dum and it is a hostle envirement. Kick it away place defense. man people are dense
i'll type it slow for you, ok...


4 things happen, two good and two bad... 50/50...

jjjayb
11-18-2007, 07:53 PM
It's not even close to 50/50. especially you have a rookie quarterback who is dum and it is a hostle envirement. Kick it away place defense. man people are dense


4-6. What more do I need to say? :rolleyes:

MadMax
11-18-2007, 07:54 PM
Nipples?


Where? lol

Bearcat
11-18-2007, 07:54 PM
I have never agreed with anyone on anything more than your thread starter and your drive-by-drive grading. There's no use in responding, because there's nothing that should be changed, nothing that can be added, and nothing that can be argued.

You sir, are a Chiefsplanet Scholar.

Demonpenz
11-18-2007, 07:57 PM
4-6. What more do I need to say? :rolleyes:


4-6 is far better than most coaches would do with this team. Below average qb, the worst o-line in the league a middle of the pack D. Hell if you would have told me today that we would only lose by 3...on the road..... to INDY... I would have thought you were some kind of toothsayer.

Demonpenz
11-18-2007, 07:59 PM
i'll type it slow for you, ok...


4 things happen, two good and two bad... 50/50...


I firmly believe it might be more than two bad, because if we get the first down, we might have to run another play and turn it over.

Logical
11-18-2007, 08:00 PM
Kirk: Shields up!
Sulu:Not responding, Captain!
Bones: Damn it Jim, he's a fan. not a friggin machine!
Kirk:Scotty?
Scotty: I caan't dew anything capn, she's not holding power!
Spock:It's only Dr.Doo...err Logical...rep

MadMax
11-18-2007, 08:00 PM
4-6. What more do I need to say? :rolleyes:


Heh, I saw a game where 75% or better of our plays were WR screens, draws and running plays that were so damned predictable the D was in the backfield all day... I've halucinated before so disregard this post if im just havin one of those days :) Jeezus Sperm you refused to start the best QB on the team all year then you put him in 4 point restraints the entire game....I don't mind that we lost, it's that we didn't try to win which is very disturbing...

Zouk
11-18-2007, 08:01 PM
I love the delusion here.

If we just come out on the road with a QB in his first game, Chris Terry and John Welbourn on the right side, and our only good receiver a rookie and throw the ball a lot, we beat the Super Bowl champs easy!

What's driving me crazy and making me post so much tonight is that this game actually validates Herm as the guy to take us to the next level. Once we get better offensive talent this offseason, with his D we can win these games that only teams like the Pats can!

MadMax
11-18-2007, 08:01 PM
I firmly believe it might be more than two bad, because if we get the first down, we might have to run another play and turn it over.



If we are sooo afraid to turn it over, why even play??

Demonpenz
11-18-2007, 08:03 PM
If we are sooo afraid to turn it over, why even play??


run the ball stop the run.

Rain Man
11-18-2007, 08:03 PM
Going back to the drive charts, here's how the NFL classified each play we ran. We had four passes that were not classified as short passes. On the one drive where we had more than one of those plays, we scored a touchdown.

If you were a defensive coordinator and you looked at this, where would you be playing your safeties?

Drive 1

Run Left
Run Middle
Run Left
Pass Short Right
Run Right
Run Middle
Pass Short Middle

Drive 2

Run Middle
Run Right
Pass Short Middle

Drive 3

Pass Short Middle
Run Middle
Pass Short Right
Run Middle
Pass Short Left
Pass Short Left
Run Middle
Pass Short Right
Run Left
Run Left

Drive 4

Run Middle
Pass Short Right
Run Left


Drive 5
Pass Short Right
Pass Short Right
Pass Deep Right
Run Middle
Pass Short Left

Drive 6
Run Right
Run Middle
Pass - Sacked

Drive 7
Run Middle
Run Middle

Drive 8

Pass Short Left
Pass (Scramble)
Run Middle
Pass Short Middle

Drive 9

Run Left
Run Left
Pass Short Left
Pass Short Left
Pass Short Left
Pass Short Right
Pass Short Left
Run Middle
Pass Deep Middle
Run Middle
Pass Deep Left
Pass Deep Right

Drive 10

Run Left
Pass Short Right
Pass Short Middle

Drive 11

Run Left
Pass Short Right
Pass Short Middle
Run Left
Pass (Sacked)
Run Left

Drive 12

Pass Short Left

Zouk
11-18-2007, 08:04 PM
If we are sooo afraid to turn it over, why even play??

If we make a few field goals and don't fumble on the 10, we might have won the game as a 15 point underdog!

Skip Towne
11-18-2007, 08:04 PM
That quote always puzzled me. there's actually four things and the 4th is good.



That makes it 50/50...
Did you include getting sacked?

headsnap
11-18-2007, 08:04 PM
4-6 is far better than most coaches would do with this team. Below average qb, the worst o-line in the league a middle of the pack D. Hell if you would have told me today that we would only lose by 3...on the road..... to INDY... I would have thought you were some kind of toothsayer.
YAY let's celebrate, we only lost the game by 3 points!!!!

kumbaya everybody!!



ON A GAME THAT IF THE HC AND OC HAD ANY BALLS COULD HAVE BEEN WON!!!! :grr:

jjjayb
11-18-2007, 08:06 PM
run the ball stop the run.

And if we can't run the ball? Just keep doing what isn't working? Run up the middle on first down every time only to be continually stuffed? Yep, and you were saying everyone else is dense?

Chief Henry
11-18-2007, 08:08 PM
[QUOTE=Rain Man]
It's the fourth quarter. The score is tied. The best quarterback in the game is on the other sideline. And we freaking concede a drive? We don't even TRY to get a first down? We punt the ball to the most productive offense of the decade? Both teams had one opportunity to win the game, and our stupid, idiotic, moronic, imbecilic coaching staff VOLUNTARILY GAVE OUR CHANCE AWAY! THEY SAID, "WE DON'T WANT TO TRY TO SCORE, SO LET'S PLAY FOR A TIE AND PUNT IT PEYTON FREAKING MANNING." What sort of intellectual plant life would you have to be to do that? They voluntarily reduced our chances of winning to zero, and for no reason.




Three drives! At least three drives where we just intentionally folded up. Didn't even try! "Eh, who cares? Just run for a few yards and punt it. Who cares?" Did these people never watch Joe Montana in the Super Bowl against Cincinnati? Do they not understand that the team with the most points wins? Where is the understanding here, people! Where?!?!?!?!
I HATE YOU, HERMAN EDWARDS! HATE! HATE, HATE, HATE! No, no. It's more than hate! Far more than hate. It's outright despisal!

YOU PLAY...TO WIN...THE GAME! YOU PLAY...TO WIN...THE GAME!



I couldn't agree more. Our in game decison making is no where to be found on offense.

Rain Man
11-18-2007, 08:08 PM
run the ball stop the run.

If you punt, five things can happen and three of of them are good, so the more I think about it, maybe this is the way to go.

Returner is tackled
Punt is blocked
Returner gets touchdown
Roughing the punter penalty
No return

Skip Towne
11-18-2007, 08:08 PM
YAY let's celebrate, we only lost the game by 3 points!!!!

kumbaya everybody!!



ON A GAME THAT IF THE HC AND OC HAD ANY BALLS COULD HAVE BEEN WON!!!! :grr:
How often will you win an NFL game when scoring 10 points?

Zouk
11-18-2007, 08:09 PM
YAY let's celebrate, we only lost the game by 3 points!!!!

kumbaya everybody!!



ON A GAME THAT IF THE HC AND OC HAD ANY BALLS COULD HAVE BEEN WON!!!! :grr:


In people's minds, Brodie Croyle is Tom Brady. But the fact is in the preseason he was a turnover machine. The chances are that if we opened it up, it would have looked like the 3rd quarter of the Broncos game.

Look at the Bills tonight, they came out throwing a lot and throwing deep. They threw a pick, had a bunch of incomplete passes and sacks, played at the Pats' preferred tempo, and are down 35-7. Yay! Agressive! Ballsy!

headsnap
11-18-2007, 08:10 PM
How often will you win an NFL game when scoring 10 points?

:spock:

jjjayb
11-18-2007, 08:10 PM
How often will you win an NFL game when scoring 10 points?

Almost never. But hey, we'll keep trying it. With the same outcome. Hoping it will change. :drool:

Bearcat
11-18-2007, 08:10 PM
I love the delusion here.

If we just come out on the road with a QB in his first game, Chris Terry and John Welbourn on the right side, and our only good receiver a rookie and throw the ball a lot, we beat the Super Bowl champs easy!

What's driving me crazy and making me post so much tonight is that this game actually validates Herm as the guy to take us to the next level. Once we get better offensive talent this offseason, with his D we can win these games that only teams like the Pats can!

Yawn.


I'll take the first three quarters... even with all the stupid screens and whatever. If you want to say it kept us in the game, fine, I can deal with that.

But, give me back the two drives in the 4th quarter... especially the one at 14:53.

You drive, score a TD, force the Colts to punt... and then you hand off on first down (again), setting up a screen to Bowe (again), and it's 3rd and 12.

WHAT THE HELL? You just drove down the field.

So, you force them to punt again. Hand off (again), pass on 2nd down (again, but 7 yards). First down, hand off... 2nd down, why would Croyle get sacked? How the hell did the Colts know we were going to pass on 2nd and 15? 3rd & 18.

Game over.

We drive down the field and score a touchdown. Force a punt. We fold up. Force a punt. We fold up.

Why is there faith that the philosophy will change when the talent changes, when Herm comes out and says "we were in a defensive game, we were looking for one play at the end"?

Some of you guys sound like it's our first year in the NFL. You all complain about respect and how we made the playoffs last year and how we are a game out of winning the AFC West... yet, we lose, and it's "we're rebuilding, it's a moral victory".

Which one is it?

Like you said, if the philosophy doesn't change when there's more talent, that'll be the time to really be disappointed. I just don't see why it would change. Croyle proves he can drive down the field for the TD, and you put the diapers back on? It was almost like it was practice... good week, Croyle, we'll come back out next week and see if we can do it again... oh wait, there's another quarter to play? :banghead:


I don't think it's about that for most people... I could care less about the loss as far as the standings. Herm made these sort of choices in big games with the Jets. He made the same decisions in our playoff loss last year, and he's making the same decisions now.

Why is he going to change now? When we have more talent, and we're tied in the 4th, he's going to punt before taking a chance, and give us the 50/50 chance of winning that we've had all year. It's always going to be about one big play. We'll win some games we shouldn't win, and lose some games we should win by 21.

It's hard to win 3 or 4 playoff games in a row like that, regardless of the talent on the field... because you know, playoff teams are usually pretty good, too.

Zouk
11-18-2007, 08:12 PM
Bearcat, if you don't have Peyton Manning or Tom Brady you win playoff games on the road just like this. Ugly it up and win the turnover margin. The historical record is clear on this.

MadMax
11-18-2007, 08:13 PM
In people's minds, Brodie Croyle is Tom Brady. But the fact is in the preseason he was a turnover machine. The chances are that if we opened it up, it would have looked like the 3rd quarter of the Broncos game.

Look a the Bills tonight, they came otu throwing a lot and throwing deep. They threw a pick, had a bunch of incomplete passes and sacks, played at the Pats' preferred tempo, and are down 35-7. Yay! Agressive! Ballsy!



Demon is that you??? Please enlighten us ( you know the 35+ year bandwagon fans ) with your expert analysis...I'm neither a mastermind nor a genious unlike you.. :shake:

Rain Man
11-18-2007, 08:13 PM
If we make a few field goals and don't fumble on the 10, we might have won the game as a 15 point underdog!

Yeah, but you can't plan to not fumble or not miss field goals. You can plan to challenge the defense once in a while.

When the 49ers were in their glory years, I wonder how often they got the ball with 8 minutes left in the game and played to position the ball for a punt? How about the Patriots now? Or the Colts last year? Or even the Chiefs from 2002 to 2004? I can't even imagine Joe Montana running draws on third and long with eight minutes left in the game. Real teams go out and beat their opponents, they don't plan their whole game plan around positioning to get a good punt.

JohninGpt
11-18-2007, 08:13 PM
I would like to see Clark Hunt log onto Chiefs Planet and start a thread with the following:
Carl,
Your fired, and take Herm and Mike with you.

Love,
Clark

beach tribe
11-18-2007, 08:14 PM
Herm is the most cowardace(?) coach that I have ever seen. My most hated Chief ever.

Zouk
11-18-2007, 08:14 PM
Demon is that you??? Please enlighten us ( you know the 35+ year bandwagon fans ) with your expert analysis...I'm neither a mastermind nor a genious unlike you.. :shake:

Never said I was a genius, I'm just a dude on a message board arguing. Argue back with facts.

Bearcat
11-18-2007, 08:14 PM
If we make a few field goals and don't fumble on the 10, we might have won the game as a 15 point underdog!

Thanks, Herm LMAO

This is exactly what's wrong... "If we play a near-perfect game, we might have won!". The whole point is that we had the chance to win in the 4th, and we folded up. And if we're in the same spot in a couple of years, Herm will do the same thing, because he's always been afraid of taking a chance, and he'll never learn.

50/50 chance of winning any game in the 4th quarter... keep both teams in the game, and try to win in the end. He even said it in his postgame.

headsnap
11-18-2007, 08:15 PM
In people's minds, Brodie Croyle is Tom Brady. But the fact is in the preseason he was a turnover machine. The chances are that if we opened it up, it would have looked like the 3rd quarter of the Broncos game.

Look at the Bills tonight, they came out throwing a lot and throwing deep. They threw a pick, had a bunch of incomplete passes and sacks, played at the Pats' preferred tempo, and are down 35-7. Yay! Agressive! Ballsy!


are you on Carl's payroll?

the way you keep bringing up that Huard brilliant start to the 3rd qtr of the Bronco's game makes me believe so. :shake:



what you and Demonpenz are missing here is, the people complaining here are not really asking for the offense to be opened wide gunslinging, we would just like something a little less predictable and see a risk taken every once in a while...

jjjayb
11-18-2007, 08:15 PM
Bearcat, if you don't have Peyton Manning or Tom Brady you win playoff games on the road just like this. Ugly it up and win the turnover margin. The historical record is clear on this.

You have to get to the playoffs first.

Rain Man
11-18-2007, 08:16 PM
In people's minds, Brodie Croyle is Tom Brady. But the fact is in the preseason he was a turnover machine. The chances are that if we opened it up, it would have looked like the 3rd quarter of the Broncos game.

Look at the Bills tonight, they came out throwing a lot and throwing deep. They threw a pick, had a bunch of incomplete passes and sacks, played at the Pats' preferred tempo, and are down 35-7. Yay! Agressive! Ballsy!


Honestly, I'd rather go down fighting than going down with a whimper like today. We were France today. France!

CoMoChief
11-18-2007, 08:17 PM
I love the delusion here.

If we just come out on the road with a QB in his first game, Chris Terry and John Welbourn on the right side, and our only good receiver a rookie and throw the ball a lot, we beat the Super Bowl champs easy!

What's driving me crazy and making me post so much tonight is that this game actually validates Herm as the guy to take us to the next level. Once we get better offensive talent this offseason, with his D we can win these games that only teams like the Pats can!
The Pats are avg 40points a game and are winning almost every game by 3+ Touchdowns.

This team has enough talent to score 3 touchdowns a game. That's not even one TD a quarter people. It isn't asking much. These coaches are not allowing this team to move the chains.

beach tribe
11-18-2007, 08:17 PM
Bearcat, if you don't have Peyton Manning or Tom Brady you win playoff games on the road just like this. Ugly it up and win the turnover margin. The historical record is clear on this.
You tell me the last time you saw Manning or Brady sqaut on the Ball with a minute and a half and 3 timeouts.........Oh that's right Their coaches aren't cowards.

Zouk
11-18-2007, 08:17 PM
Yeah, but you can't plan to not fumble or not miss field goals. You can plan to challenge the defense once in a while.

When the 49ers were in their glory years, I wonder how often they got the ball with 8 minutes left in the game and played to position the ball for a punt? How about the Patriots now? Or the Colts last year? Or even the Chiefs from 2002 to 2004? I can't even imagine Joe Montana running draws on third and long with eight minutes left in the game. Real teams go out and beat their opponents, they don't plan their whole game plan around positioning to get a good punt.

The whole point is that the talent on our offense is much closer to the 2007 49ers than the 1987 49ers. Different play calling won't change that. We can't expect a rookie QB throwing to a rookie WR behind a bad offensive line to play like the 49ers in their prime. Our best chance to win this game was to play around the offense. It nearly worked!

Iowanian
11-18-2007, 08:17 PM
but but but bRAinman......

Don't you know, if Croyle had thrown an INT, the Chiefs wouldn't have won?

Proper proceedure, as you know is to punt, and hope the other team effs up on the last drive.

Its ARENA football if you don't wait until the last drive to win.

I mean, look at those stupid Patriots, up by 3 TDs with 2 Minutes left in the first half....THROWING.....for another TD.

Chief Henry
11-18-2007, 08:17 PM
How often will you win an NFL game when scoring 10 points?


In Herms mind our defense has to give up 9 and then we win.

Our in game coaching decisions stink. It seems like I was saying when
DV was our head coach too.

Demonpenz
11-18-2007, 08:18 PM
are you on Carl's payroll?

the way you keep bringing up that Huard brilliant start to the 3rd qtr of the Bronco's game makes me believe so. :shake:



what you and Demonpenz are missing here is, the people complaining here are not really asking for the offense to be opened wide gunslinging, we would just like something a little less predictable and see a risk taken every once in a while...


people went balistic when we turned it over doing that bullshit

jjjayb
11-18-2007, 08:18 PM
Bearcat, if you don't have Peyton Manning or Tom Brady you win playoff games on the road just like this. Ugly it up and win the turnover margin. The historical record is clear on this.

If Herm had Brady or Manning do you really think they would look like Brady or Manning? Or would they be there to just run out the clock for the defense. Cause after all, Herm's philosophy is too many points hurst your defense.

Zouk
11-18-2007, 08:18 PM
You tell me the last time you saw Manning or Brady sqaut on the Ball with a minute and a half and 2 timeouts.........Oh that's right Their coaches aren't cowards.


Belichick coached different in Cleveland, and Dungy coached different in Tampa. You guys have the chicken and egg situation turned on its head. The players determine the playcalling, not the other way around.

JohninGpt
11-18-2007, 08:19 PM
Herm is the most cowardace(?) coach that I have ever seen. My most hated Chief ever.
Cowardly, like the lion. He's close enough to Kansas, he should find a wizard somewhere to give him courage, and maybe a brain for Mike.

Iowanian
11-18-2007, 08:20 PM
I'm not pissed.....I expected a loss, and they were in the game.

I'm glad the youngsters are seeing the field....keep that going.

On the other hand, I'd prefer.....while she's very knowledgeable with football......that my wife not be able to predict the Chiefs offensive series'.

headsnap
11-18-2007, 08:21 PM
people went balistic when we turned it over doing that bullshit
Carl, people were already going ballistic because Huard was on the field to start the 2nd half of that game!!


Huard just made it worse...

Skip Towne
11-18-2007, 08:21 PM
In Herms mind our defense has to give up 9 and then we win.

Our in game coaching decisions stink. It seems like I was saying when
DV was our head coach too.
Herm is living in the past. 50 years ago, before facemasks and Wide Receivers, You just lined up and tried to push the other team off the ball. But that hasn't worked in years. Somebody should email Herm about it. Oh, wait, Herm doesn't know how to use the internet.

Zouk
11-18-2007, 08:21 PM
If Herm had Brady or Manning do you really think they would look like Brady or Manning? Or would they be there to just run out the clock for the defense. Cause after all, Herm's philosophy is too many points hurst your defense.

The Jets were blowing teams out towards the end of 2002.

Of course Herm would play different with Brady or Manning.

Bearcat
11-18-2007, 08:21 PM
Bearcat, if you don't have Peyton Manning or Tom Brady you win playoff games on the road just like this. Ugly it up and win the turnover margin. The historical record is clear on this.

You don't win playoff games by punting when it's tied 10-10, putting Peyton Manning back on the field. You don't win playoff games by punting again, putting Peyton Manning back on the field again. You don't win playoff games against Peyton Manning by giving the ball back to Peyton Manning!

You're going on the other side of the spectrum... I'm not talking about airing it out, and I'm not talking about Croyle becoming Manning or Brady.

I'm talking about giving Croyle the chance to do what he just did and drive the team down for the TD.

Do you want to talk about history? Wanna talk Marty playoff history? How about Herm's? Come on.... there's a big difference between playing not to lose and playing smart, just like there's a big difference between playing smart and airing it out.

Demonpenz
11-18-2007, 08:21 PM
Yeah, but you can't plan to not fumble or not miss field goals. You can plan to challenge the defense once in a while.

When the 49ers were in their glory years, I wonder how often they got the ball with 8 minutes left in the game and played to position the ball for a punt? How about the Patriots now? Or the Colts last year? Or even the Chiefs from 2002 to 2004? I can't even imagine Joe Montana running draws on third and long with eight minutes left in the game. Real teams go out and beat their opponents, they don't plan their whole game plan around positioning to get a good punt.


the 49ers pass plays were throw short all the time the whole basis to the west coast offense is short quick passes that like long handoffs to PREVENT FROM TURNING ThE BALL over

Rain Man
11-18-2007, 08:21 PM
Thanks, Herm LMAO

This is exactly what's wrong... "If we play a near-perfect game, we might have won!". The whole point is that we had the chance to win in the 4th, and we folded up. And if we're in the same spot in a couple of years, Herm will do the same thing, because he's always been afraid of taking a chance, and he'll never learn.

50/50 chance of winning any game in the 4th quarter... keep both teams in the game, and try to win in the end. He even said it in his postgame.

Yeah, if he wants to be ultraconservative, okay. Maybe I can live with that. Maybe.

But today we had a situation where a real team will go for the throat. A real team will say, "It's the fourth quarter, we've got 8 minutes left, let's take over this game." Herman Edwards instead said, "Let's give up on second and third down and punt to peak-of-his-career-Hall-of-Famer Peyton Manning, and let's rely on our defense to not allow him to get at least a field goal, and maybe we can go into overtime with a tie if we can stop one of the most prolific quarterbacks in NFL history."

I don't care if Harrison is out. I don't care if a rookie left tackle is out. Manning will win this type of game if you give him a chance. We chose to give him a chance instead of giving Croyle a chance. It's unfathomable.

And don't even get me started on why we stopped blitzing in the second half, and on that final drive. We went into exactly the kind of defense that he picks apart. The whole team went into a conservative shell when the game was on the line, which minimized our chances of winning.

CoMoChief
11-18-2007, 08:21 PM
Cowardly, like the lion. He's close enough to Kansas, he should find a wizard somewhere to give him courage, and maybe a brain for Mike.
http://www.ozmuseum.com/

beach tribe
11-18-2007, 08:22 PM
Belichick coached different in Cleveland, and Dungy coached different in Tampa. You guys have the chicken and egg situation turned on its head. The players determine the playcalling, not the other way around.
If you can't see that the end of the first half was chicken shit, then you deserve this "moral" victory.

beach tribe
11-18-2007, 08:24 PM
Yeah, if he wants to be ultraconservative, okay. Maybe I can live with that. Maybe.

But today we had a situation where a real team will go for the throat. A real team will say, "It's the fourth quarter, we've got 8 minutes left, let's take over this game." Herman Edwards instead said, "Let's give up on second and third down and punt to peak-of-his-career-Hall-of-Famer Peyton Manning, and let's rely on our defense to not allow him to get at least a field goal, and maybe we can go into overtime with a tie if we can stop one of the most prolific quarterbacks in NFL history."

I don't care if Harrison is out. I don't care if a rookie left tackle is out. Manning will win this type of game if you give him a chance. We chose to give him a chance instead of giving Croyle a chance. It's unfathomable.

And don't even get me started on why we stopped blitzing in the second half, and on that final drive. We went into exactly the kind of defense that he picks apart. The whole team went into a conservative shell when the game was on the line, which minimized our chances of winning.
Herm is a complete chickenshit coach.

Zouk
11-18-2007, 08:25 PM
And don't even get me started on why we stopped blitzing in the second half, and on that final drive. We went into exactly the kind of defense that he picks apart. The whole team went into a conservative shell when the game was on the line, which minimized our chances of winning.


Now you're just wrong. Our blitzes were very uneffective. When we blitzed Manning found an open man quickly, whereas when we rushed 4 he held onto the ball and we ended up getting better pressure. Manning hit Wayne for an easy 11 to get them into scoring position on that last drive when we blitzed bigtime.

jjjayb
11-18-2007, 08:27 PM
Belichick coached different in Cleveland, and Dungy coached different in Tampa. You guys have the chicken and egg situation turned on its head. The players determine the playcalling, not the other way around.

No, that's exactly my point. We don't have the players to run Herms offense. We don't have a dominant line to pound the rock at will. We don't have the dominant D to just give up on offense. We have a weak line. Being so predictable just makes that line even worse. Mix it up a little bit. Hell, run and pass the same amount you do now. Just mix it up so the D can't stack against the run on 1st and 2nd down. Mix it up so the D doesn't send the farm after our QB on 3rd down. Our line is bad enough already without the opposing Defense knowing EXACTLY what plays we are running on most downs. Hell, just jump in the chat with us and see most of us in there predicting the plays before we run them with a 90 percent accuracy. What amazes me is when we actually have moved the ball this year has been when we have gotten away from our normal predictable playcalling. But we do it, get the lead then go right back into our predicatable shell.

Bearcat
11-18-2007, 08:28 PM
Yeah, if he wants to be ultraconservative, okay. Maybe I can live with that. Maybe.

But today we had a situation where a real team will go for the throat. A real team will say, "It's the fourth quarter, we've got 8 minutes left, let's take over this game." Herman Edwards instead said, "Let's give up on second and third down and punt to peak-of-his-career-Hall-of-Famer Peyton Manning, and let's rely on our defense to not allow him to get at least a field goal, and maybe we can go into overtime with a tie if we can stop one of the most prolific quarterbacks in NFL history."

I don't care if Harrison is out. I don't care if a rookie left tackle is out. Manning will win this type of game if you give him a chance. We chose to give him a chance instead of giving Croyle a chance. It's unfathomable.

And don't even get me started on why we stopped blitzing in the second half, and on that final drive. We went into exactly the kind of defense that he picks apart. The whole team went into a conservative shell when the game was on the line, which minimized our chances of winning.

Yep... like I posted several times, I'll give Herm the benefit of the doubt on every play through 3 quarters. After all, even with all the screens and bad playcalling, it's 10-10 and you have a little momentum with the TD.

They basically told Croyle at that point "good drive... pack it up, and we'll see if we can do it again next week".

I could care less about the W-L columns. It's about the decision making. Given that situation with more playmakers and a better OLine, I think Herm would do the same thing. Why do I think that? He SAID IT after the game when he said we were in a defensive game and were waiting for a play at the end.

morphius
11-18-2007, 08:28 PM
Now you're just wrong. Our blitzes were very uneffective. When we blitzed Manning found an open man quickly, whereas when we rushed 4 he held onto the ball and we ended up getting better pressure. Manning hit Wayne for an easy 11 to get them into scoring position on that last drive when we blitzed bigtime.
I believe our blitzes actually worked pretty well in this game. The only thing that killed us on D was that our corners would play so far off that the quick routes were easy tosses.

Rain Man
11-18-2007, 08:29 PM
Belichick coached different in Cleveland, and Dungy coached different in Tampa. You guys have the chicken and egg situation turned on its head. The players determine the playcalling, not the other way around.

That's great, and I fully support that.

Now...what's Brodie Croyle's strength in his first start? Fast reads and decision-making among multiple short pass routes, or throwing the ball downfield? Did you not hear the discussion of his oversized forearm and wrist? It's oversized. Oversized! If we work to his strengths, we aren't running a short passing offense.

Smed1065
11-18-2007, 08:31 PM
Game #1 in the NFL.

Who knows?

RedThat
11-18-2007, 08:36 PM
That's great, and I fully support that.

Now...what's Brodie Croyle's strength in his first start? Fast reads and decision-making among multiple short pass routes, or throwing the ball downfield? Did you not hear the discussion of his oversized forearm and wrist? It's oversized. Oversized! If we work to his strengths, we aren't running a short passing offense.

We work to his strengths only when we're down and losing in a game. when the opposition scores on us. And forces us to then go to the passing game, open things up down the field.

It actually takes an opposing team to get a lead on us before we start opening things up. It's sad.

beach tribe
11-18-2007, 08:36 PM
No, that's exactly my point. We don't have the players to run Herms offense. We don't have a dominant line to pound the rock at will. We don't have the dominant D to just give up on offense. We have a weak line. Being so predictable just makes that line even worse. Mix it up a little bit. Hell, run and pass the same amount you do now. Just mix it up so the D can't stack against the run on 1st and 2nd down. Mix it up so the D doesn't send the farm after our QB on 3rd down. Our line is bad enough already without the opposing Defense knowing EXACTLY what plays we are running on most downs. Hell, just jump in the chat with us and see most of us in there predicting the plays before we run them with a 90 percent accuracy. What amazes me is when we actually have moved the ball this year has been when we have gotten away from our normal predictable playcalling. But we do it, get the lead then go right back into our predicatable shell.
You my friend are exactly right. Our D is damn good, but not good enough to the point to where our O can just give up oportunities to score. We don't have a ball control capable O-line so the other teams get more oportunities than usual to score, and we just by pass on ours. Anyone who defends this is as dumb as Hermit.

Mr. Laz
11-18-2007, 08:36 PM
That strong offense had no Marvin Harrison and both starting offensive tackles were out. They scored 10 points in 3 and a half quarters, with 3 of those points coming off a 10 years field after the Mathis strip sack.

The chance of our offense converting 3rd and 18 on the road is less than 10%. The coaches have numbers on all this. And that's why ALL the coaches in the league do the same thing.
how about converting on 3rd and 4 .... 3rd and 3?


when we basically played for the field goal on most every drive that entered the red zone in the 1st half.


Herm coaches offense like he's terrified

Skip Towne
11-18-2007, 08:37 PM
That's great, and I fully support that.

Now...what's Brodie Croyle's strength in his first start? Fast reads and decision-making among multiple short pass routes, or throwing the ball downfield? Did you not hear the discussion of his oversized forearm and wrist? It's oversized. Oversized! If we work to his strengths, we aren't running a short passing offense.
But passing the ball is so risky.

Mr. Laz
11-18-2007, 08:38 PM
Now you're just wrong. Our blitzes were very uneffective. When we blitzed Manning found an open man quickly, whereas when we rushed 4 he held onto the ball and we ended up getting better pressure. Manning hit Wayne for an easy 11 to get them into scoring position on that last drive when we blitzed bigtime.
i'm beginning think you're insane ... our blitzes did a great job.

in fact, timely blitzing is usually want stopped the colt's drives.

Rain Man
11-18-2007, 08:43 PM
i beginning think your insane ... our blitzes did a great job.

in fact, timely blitzing is usually want stopped the colt's drives.

That sure represents the game that I saw. The Colts' drives were all later when we completely stopped blitzing and dared him to beat our coverage, because we all know that Peyton Manning can't beat coverage when he's got time.

But I digress. I'm more mad about the offense.

Chief Henry
11-18-2007, 08:44 PM
You don't win playoff games by punting when it's tied 10-10, putting Peyton Manning back on the field. You don't win playoff games by punting again, putting Peyton Manning back on the field again. You don't win playoff games against Peyton Manning by giving the ball back to Peyton Manning!

You're going on the other side of the spectrum... I'm not talking about airing it out, and I'm not talking about Croyle becoming Manning or Brady.

I'm talking about giving Croyle the chance to do what he just did and drive the team down for the TD.

Do you want to talk about history? Wanna talk Marty playoff history? How about Herm's? Come on.... there's a big difference between playing not to lose and playing smart, just like there's a big difference between playing smart and airing it out.


That one line says it all. Croyle wasn't given the chance to win the game. I beleave he could have too. I really do. Think of the confidence that would have given him !!! Going into Peytons house and BEATING the defending SB champs in ther own crib.

We could have but we didn't even give the kid the chance.

Rain Man
11-18-2007, 08:45 PM
But passing the ball is so risky.

Rumor has it that only three or four things can happen, plus maybe a sack if that's not the fourth one, and at least two of those are bad, which may or may not represent fifty percent of possible outcomes, unweighted by frequency of occurrence.

Bearcat
11-18-2007, 08:48 PM
That one line says it all. Croyle wasn't given the chance to win the game. I beleave he could have too. I really do. Think of the confidence that would have given him !!! Going into Peytons house and BEATING the defending SB champs in ther own crib.

We could have but we didn't even give the kid the chance.

Yep... If Herm believed Croyle gives them the best chance to win, why not give him the chance to win? Croyle doesn't strike me as a guy with a fragile mind, who is going to curl up into a ball on the sideline after an interception. He wants to throw it around, and if playing quarterback is anything like life, making a few mistakes along the way is better than being coddled.

headsnap
11-18-2007, 08:49 PM
That one line says it all. Croyle wasn't given the chance to win the game. I beleave he could have too. I really do. Think of the confidence that would have given him !!! Going into Peytons house and BEATING the defending SB champs in ther own crib.

We could have but we didn't even give the kid the chance.

you don't want to give him too much confidence too quickly...



baby steps...

Chief Henry
11-18-2007, 08:50 PM
99.999 % of the people thought we were going to loose. We did loose, but we didn't give our offense the chance to take some swings up at the plate. We all knew manning was going to take his cuts, but herm kept putting up the fricken bunt sign..... A little baseball lingo injected into this thread.

Instead of running into that dam brick wall on every running play, why not just play action pass and pickup 5-7 yards and move the chains? then let Brody try some shots down field.

Misplaced_Chiefs_Fan
11-18-2007, 08:51 PM
Rain Man,

I'm with you. I've been following this team since 1966 and I can't even remember being this torqued off at the team in the late 70s.

At least, I could comfort myself in knowing we just didn't have very good players back then. We've got some players now, we just have a coach who's in over his head and is coaching like he's afraid.

Well, he should be afraid. Keep coaching like this and you WILL be looking for work, bastage!

Reerun_KC
11-18-2007, 08:53 PM
Originally Posted by Demonpenz
3 things can happen when you throw the ball 2 of them bad. run the ball punt and play Defense. If you can't stop the other team you don't really have any business winning anyway.

funny 3 things happen when you run the ball and 2 of them are bad... Fumble and tackle behind the line of scrimmage...

Zouk, I admire your dedication and defense of Herm... Keep fighting the good fight my friend...

1 game closer until Herm is gone... Each week just gets better and better... Knowing we are almost through with this torture.

Mr. Laz
11-18-2007, 08:55 PM
That sure represents the game that I saw. The Colts' drives were all later when we completely stopped blitzing and dared him to beat our coverage, because we all know that Peyton Manning can't beat coverage when he's got time.

But I digress. I'm more mad about the offense.
i wouldn't limit yourself

The symptoms of playing not to lose showed itself on defense as well as offense.

when our defense is aggressive and varied it did a great job. As the game got tighter the defense started getting more and more conservative and was less and less successful.

same on offense ......


The harder you try and hold onto sand the more in slips through your fingers.

The more you coach an NFL game not to lose, the more likely a loss will occur.

Logical
11-18-2007, 09:07 PM
That's great, and I fully support that.

Now...what's Brodie Croyle's strength in his first start? Fast reads and decision-making among multiple short pass routes, or throwing the ball downfield? Did you not hear the discussion of his oversized forearm and wrist? It's oversized. Oversized! If we work to his strengths, we aren't running a short passing offense.I really was wondering what the announcers were looking at? A very good arm no doubt but his forearm and wrist are not really oversized.

Rain Man
11-18-2007, 09:11 PM
I really was wondering what the announcers were looking at? A very good arm no doubt but his forearm and wrist are not really oversized.

To be honest, I didn't really see it either, but then again my knowledge of forearms is somewhat limited. Wrists, too.

MadMax
11-18-2007, 09:11 PM
I really was wondering what the announcers were looking at? A very good arm no doubt but his forearm and wrist are not really oversized.



BULLSHIT HIS FOREARM IS HUGE!!!! :p I heard it 10 times so it's true.

Demonpenz
11-18-2007, 09:13 PM
Gus johnson voice "THERE HE GOES AGAIN! CROYLE WIth is A FANTASTIC FORARM! "

JohninGpt
11-18-2007, 09:16 PM
BULLSHIT HIS FOREARM IS HUGE!!!! :p I heard it 10 times so it's true.
Funny, Lenny didn't mention anything about oversize appendadges, he did say something about predictable playcalling though.

Rain Man
11-18-2007, 09:16 PM
BULLSHIT HIS FOREARM IS HUGE!!!! :p I heard it 10 times so it's true.


I think the most surprising thing to me today is that he changed his first name to Young. "Young Brodie Croyle is coming to the line." "Young Brodie Croyle is handing off on 2nd and long." "Young Brodie Croyle is tossing a short give-up pass on third down to position for the punt."

Smed1065
11-18-2007, 09:18 PM
I was expecting to see POPeye when they finally showed it.

Maybe it was the angle but given the announcers did not even know a first down or not, no surprise.

Maybe the team forgot to pack the spinach?

MadMax
11-18-2007, 09:19 PM
99.999 % of the people thought we were going to loose. We did loose, but we didn't give our offense the chance to take some swings up at the plate. We all knew manning was going to take his cuts, but herm kept putting up the fricken bunt sign..... A little baseball lingo injected into this thread.

Instead of running into that dam brick wall on every running play, why not just play action pass and pickup 5-7 yards and move the chains? then let Brody try some shots down field.



EXACTLY! It's not that we lost it's how we lost IMHO! Damn give the kid a shot from time to time. i hate this coaching staff at this point, they are absolutely losers....Wow, novel idea ( let Croyle throw the ball ) not just wr screens... I expected us to lose but damn don't just give it away...Defense played lights out...

cdcox
11-18-2007, 09:23 PM
If we make a few field goals and don't fumble on the 10, we might have won the game as a 15 point underdog!

Herm thinks this way, too. Had we done everything you said, Manning needs to covert that last drive to a TD and score one more TD for them to win. He would have done it. I never once thought we were going to win the game because we never once looked like we were going to take it from them. We were the canvas for Peyton's comeback win. You have to take it.

MadMax
11-18-2007, 09:23 PM
Funny, Lenny didn't mention anything about oversize appendadges, he did say something about predictable playcalling though.


I heard Carl put a hit out on Lenny. :) Solari should forfeit half his check to JA and the other half to a downs syndrome home.

Zouk
11-18-2007, 09:23 PM
If Herm gets fired, we'll never get a coach who can bring D like this again.

He set out to fix the D first (which was terrible when he arrived, we remember) and he fixed it.

This offseason, he will overturn the O to be 1 that can consistently get 20-24 points. If we have that, we'll get home playoff games.

Harrison didn't play in the Pats game either, and the Colts almost beat them. I don't think we should be minimizing what the Chiefs accomplished today. We're on the way, I can see what we're building. Taking this talent into Indy and having a chance to win is a big deal.

Lbedrock1
11-18-2007, 09:25 PM
Run the ball stop the run wins games
the patriots have proved that wrong. I have brady on my fantasy team and he doesnt give me 40 something points because the pats run the ball. Scoring when games.

CoMoChief
11-18-2007, 09:25 PM
If Herm gets fired, we'll never get a coach who can bring D like this again.

He set out to fix the D first (which was terrible when he arrived, we remember) and he fixed it.

This offseason, he will overturn the O to be 1 that can consistently get 20-24 points. If we have that, we'll get home playoff games.

Harrison didn't play in the Pats game either, and the Colts almost beat them. I don't think we should be minimizing what the Chiefs accomplished today. We're on the way, I can see what we're building. Taking this talent into Indy and having a chance to win is a big deal.
It shouldnt be about having a chance to win. It should be about ripping the other teams heart out and taking the game from them.

Skip Towne
11-18-2007, 09:25 PM
Rain Man,

I'm with you. I've been following this team since 1966 and I can't even remember being this torqued off at the team in the late 70s.

At least, I could comfort myself in knowing we just didn't have very good players back then. We've got some players now, we just have a coach who's in over his head and is coaching like he's afraid.

Well, he should be afraid. Keep coaching like this and you WILL be looking for work, bastage!
Like anyone will hire him as a HC after we dump him.

Lbedrock1
11-18-2007, 09:26 PM
It shouldnt be about having a chance to win. It should be about ripping the other teams heart out and taking the game from them.
You mean like the patriots?

Zouk
11-18-2007, 09:26 PM
Herm thinks this way, too. Had we done everything you said, Manning needs to covert that last drive to a TD and score one more TD for them to win. He would have done it. I never once thought we were going to win the game because we never once looked like we were going to take it from them. We were the canvas for Peyton's comeback win. You have to take it.

My friend the dirty secret is we're not good enough talent-wise to beat the Colts on the road yet. We almost did it with smoke and mirrors. The O will be better next year, and you'll see how wrong you were about what we're building. Today made it even clearer to me where this is going, and getting Croyle's feet wet to play meaningful football on the road is an important step.

Reerun_KC
11-18-2007, 09:27 PM
If Herm gets fired, we'll never get a coach who can bring D like this again.


Dude, Herm isnt the end all of Defense...

There are plenty of people out there than can coach better defense..

We arent even a top 10 defense...

Get over it, Okay? It is just sad watching you lower yourself to this level...

cdcox
11-18-2007, 09:30 PM
Dude, Herm isnt the end all of Defense...

There are plenty of people out there than can coach better defense..

We arent even a top 10 defense...

Get over it, Okay? It is just sad watching you lower yourself to this level...

I was going to post the same thing. I think Zouk is Herm's cousin or something.

Donger
11-18-2007, 09:30 PM
Somewhere, LBJ is saying, "If we've lost Rain Man, we've lost the war."

Zouk
11-18-2007, 09:32 PM
There are plenty of people out there than can coach better defense..


I must have missed all those teams that held the Colts to 13 (3 of which came off a 10 yard field) in the RCA dome.

And I'm no relation to Herm or anyone else on the staff. Just an evangelizer.

Iowanian
11-18-2007, 09:33 PM
I'd like to see bRainman's rundown of this bomber mission over hostile territory.

Something tells me the tailgunner's hatch is blown out from under him as he dangles from his belt, and is dragged to death as the plane crash-lands in a French Thorn field.

dirk digler
11-18-2007, 09:40 PM
If Herm gets fired, we'll never get a coach who can bring D like this again.

He set out to fix the D first (which was terrible when he arrived, we remember) and he fixed it.

This offseason, he will overturn the O to be 1 that can consistently get 20-24 points. If we have that, we'll get home playoff games.

Harrison didn't play in the Pats game either, and the Colts almost beat them. I don't think we should be minimizing what the Chiefs accomplished today. We're on the way, I can see what we're building. Taking this talent into Indy and having a chance to win is a big deal.


This D has a long way to go to get fixed.

The Broncos B team hung 27 pts against us and the Packers put up 33.

We played the junior varsity Colts team today and we got close to winning big deal.

Herm has never won more than 10 games in his career he is a failure and he never fixed the Jets O and I don't expect him to do it here.

bobbything
11-18-2007, 09:42 PM
The chance of our offense converting 3rd and 18 on the road is less than 10%.
I'd bet next year's salary that the chance of converting 3rd and 18 on the road is even less than 10% when running a draw.

MadMax
11-18-2007, 09:45 PM
This D has a long way to go to get fixed.

The Broncos B team hung 27 pts against us and the Packers put up 33.

We played the junior varsity Colts team today and we got close to winning big deal.

Herm has never won more than 10 games in his career he is a failure and he never fixed the Jets O and I don't expect him to do it here.



Why bother replying to Herms son??? :) :)

stevieray
11-18-2007, 09:45 PM
The Broncos B team hung 27 pts against us



wrong.

dirk digler
11-18-2007, 09:51 PM
wrong.

sorry 20 pts forgot about the fumble return

still we lost at home to a completely inferior team and the game really wasn't that close after halftime

'Hamas' Jenkins
11-18-2007, 09:51 PM
Belichick coached different in Cleveland, and Dungy coached different in Tampa. You guys have the chicken and egg situation turned on its head. The players determine the playcalling, not the other way around.

Dumbass.

Then why does Herm insist on using a Cover 2 everywhere? Why did he take a team that ran a 3-4 very well in NY, with physical corners who did well in press coverage, and change them to a 4-3, Cover 2 team when he had the same f*cking players as the year before??

MadMax
11-18-2007, 09:51 PM
I must have missed all those teams that held the Colts to 13 (3 of which came off a 10 yard field) in the RCA dome.

And I'm no relation to Herm or anyone else on the staff. Just an evangelizer.


We had our shots, but we never took them....I thought we would lose but to give up is unexcuseable...I do not think this coaching could win games no matter the talent..and that is scary..spin away Herm jr.

Zouk
11-18-2007, 09:52 PM
The Broncos B team hung 27 pts against us and the Packers put up 33.




14 of which came off our offense.

Which is why we have to run 3rd and long draws.

CoMoChief
11-18-2007, 09:52 PM
You mean like the patriots?
Yes, they are a great example. Going for it on 4th and 2 or less. WANTING to score a TD on every drive, which should be the goal of any offense that takes the field.

Zouk
11-18-2007, 09:57 PM
Dumbass.

Then why does Herm insist on using a Cover 2 everywhere? Why did he take a team that ran a 3-4 very well in NY, with physical corners who did well in press coverage, and change them to a 4-3, Cover 2 team when he had the same f*cking players as the year before??


Pre-Herm 2000 Jets gave up 321 points.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/tmstats2000.htm

2001 Jets gave up 295 points.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/tmstats2001.htm

Too bad your ability to call names doesn't make you righter. Try harder!

(And according to David Gibbs, DB coach we play Cover 2 on about a third of all snaps - from Soren Petro's podcast about a month ago)

the Talking Can
11-18-2007, 10:05 PM
Rainman, read Poz's column...he confirms your point, insiders saying the same thing:

“We’re playing the Super Bowl champs, and we’re not going to take even one shot to win the game?” one of those Chiefs grumblers asked. “That’s who we are now?”

Ari Chi3fs
11-18-2007, 10:06 PM
Rainman, this ain't arena football, now. Obviously, we need to score more points, obviously. Its flustrating when your not scoring. But it's OK. Its OK. its ok

'Hamas' Jenkins
11-18-2007, 10:12 PM
Pre-Herm 2000 Jets gave up 321 points.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/tmstats2000.htm

2001 Jets gave up 295 points.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/tmstats2001.htm

Too bad your ability to call names doesn't make you righter. Try harder!

(And according to David Gibbs, DB coach we play Cover 2 on about a third of all snaps - from Soren Petro's podcast about a month ago)


This bud's to you, information minister:

Originally posted by Sperm Edwards
2000 NYJ (Al Groh): 9-7

• Very up & down year, but most concede it was due to poor motivation & the players just flat-out disliking Groh. Pushed them too hard in preseason & they ran out of gas after starting 6-1.
• Also was Testaverde’s return from Achilles tendon injury.
• Among the teams they beat were Miami (11-5) twice, Tampa Bay (10-6) and Green Bay (9-7). They split with the Colts (10-6).
• Missed chip-shot FG vs Detroit at home. If the Jets had beaten Baltimore the following week they would have made the playoffs. This ultimately cost them a trip to the playoffs.
• Opponents’ records were combined 145-111 (.566).
• Four went to the Pro Bowl (Anderson, Glenn, Lewis, Mawae).
• Other notable players included Chad Pennington, John Abraham, Shaun Ellis, Jason Ferguson, Curtis Martin, and Wayne Chrebet.

2001 NYJ (Herm Edwards): 10-6

• Edwards has no prior HC experience in the NFL, college, high school, or Pop-Warner. Edwards has no prior OC experience at any of those levels. Edwards has no prior DC experience at any of those levels. Edwards was never the special teams coach at any of those levels. As such, Edwards was never responsible for coming up with a game plan for a single football game prior to his hiring.
• Takes over a team with a veteran 3-4 defense with cover-corners, hires a DC (Ted Cottrell) whose specialty is the 3-4, & inserts a 4-man front, cover-2 base package that was successful in Tampa Bay (never considering that TB had 4-5 defensive pro-bowlers who made it work).
• Though the offense had an immobile pocket passer who missed the ’99 season with a ruptured Achilles tendon, and short WRs (Chrebet, Coles, Moss), shifted the team to a west-coast offense under Paul Hackett (who had just been fired for running the USC program into the ground after three years. Since his removal from USC, they are the best team in the USA. Prior to that he was fired from the OC position in KC).
• After an 8.5 sack rookie season, decided to move huge DE Shaun Ellis to DT, a colossal flop.
• Started out 1-2 including an unwatchable offensive plodding vs. the 6-10 Colts (down by three touchdowns we were still eating 8+ minutes of clock up on one drive running the ball in the 2nd half).
• Teams beat were NE (11-5) in the game that Lewis knocked Bledsoe out, Miami (11-5) twice, and Oakland (10-6).
• Eked out 1-point victories vs. the Bengals (6-10), Colts (6-10), and Panthers (1-15) and a 6-pt win vs. the 3-13 Bills before losing to those same Bills in a win-and-we’re-in game 15.
• Made the playoffs on a 50-yd FG in Oakland in the last game.
• Opponents’ records were combined 131-125 (.511).
• Lost the WC game in Oakland.
• Four went to the Pro Bowl (Abraham, Glenn, Martin, Mawae).
• Offense was #26 in yards; #17 in pts
• Defense was #17 in yards; #12 in points.

2002 NYJ: 9-7, Division champions

• In an effort to better enable the team to complete the switch to Edwards’ cover-2 base package, salary-cap purges Aaron Glenn & Marcus Coleman were replaced by Aaron Beasley and Donnie Abraham. To better facilitate Ellis’ move to DT, Edwards brought in DE Steve White which led GM Bradway to reach for a speedy DE in the 1st round (Bryan Thomas) to groom behind White. None of the players Edwards knew and/or requested panned out. Only Donnie Abraham proved to be a serviceable starter for 3 years. Since then, Thomas is still 2nd-string; Ellis went back to DE; Beasley (released), Abraham (retired), and White (released) are no longer with the team.
• Team started out 1-4. Their lone win in the first five games resulted from Chad Morton’s kickoff return TD in overtime (his 2nd of the game) vs. the Bills. The following three games, with no injuries to speak of, the Jets were outscored 102-13.
• During that stretch, RB Curtis Martin had two very bad high ankle sprains and did not miss a game. Edwards would not start LaMont Jordan for even one game, or give Jordan as many as 6 carries in any game.
• Game 5 they blew a lead to KC by getting too conservative too early on offense (an Edwards/Hackett trademark for their entire NYJ tenure).
• Game 7 blew a 21-3 lead to the Cleveland Browns & lost 24-21 for the same reason.
• Damien Robinson brought the shotgun to Giants Stadium in the trunk of his car on Oct 14, 2001 (soon after 9/11).
Ellis was moved back to DE and had a sub-par year since he was still carrying the extra weight required for his move to DT.
• Chad Pennington had a magical season and almost single-handedly brought the Jets back from the dead, throwing 22 TD’s to 6 INT’s and going 8-4 in his regular season starts (including the two blown games when the Jets stopped passing way too early).
• With the Jets in control of their own destiny, lost to the (then) 3-10 Chicago Bears.
• Thanks to an improbable outcome in the last game between Miami/NE, the Jets won a three-way tiebreaker as all three teams ended up 9-7. Jets win the division.
• Beat the 10-6 Colts in impressive fashion 41-0 in the wild card game before getting slaughtered 30-10 by the Raiders in the division playoff game a week later.
• After the game, with his star receiver Laveranues Coles not under contract, Edwards comments to the media that the Jets need to get bigger at WR. Coles departs for Washington after the Jets only tender him at $1.3M.
• >.500 teams beat were Miami (9-7), Denver (9-7), NE (9-7), GB (12-4)
• Pro Bowlers were John Abraham and Kevin Mawae

2003 NYJ: 6-10

• Chad Pennington breaks his left wrist in a pre-season game, where rookie FB BJ Askew was responsible for picking up and missing his assignment on the blitz that got Pennington injured. Inexcusable letting a rookie block for the franchise QB in a meaningless preseason game. Pennington is out until game 7.
• Edwards does not let Testaverde start the last pre-season game to work with the first team offense out of fear that he, too, could get injured.
• Testaverde starts very rusty. The offense is not altered at all to take advantage of Testaverde’s arm strength and minimize his lack of mobility (again). Jets lose the first four games, including an embarrassing display of conservatism vs. the Redskins in Washington to kick off the NFL season.
• After winning two games in a row, and with a 10-pt halftime lead over the Eagles, Edwards follows through with his pre-game announcement that Pennington will relieve Vinny during the game. Pennington comes in, blows the lead, and the Jets lose. They also blow a very winnable game to the 4-12 Giants (who would not win another game after that) the following week.
• Won a surprising victory vs the 12-4 Titans who were clearly not taking us seriously. Only other teams they lost to all season (& post-season) were the Colts & Patriots.
• Prior to a late game against New England, Herm is evidently and suddenly not satisfied with Hackett’s game plan of draw plays. He feels we need to be more vertical in the passing game. We know this because he says as much to beat reporters early enough in the week to allow Belichick/Crennel ample time to prepare. Herm (as usual) follows through with his publicized gameplan & Chad throws 5 interceptions for the first & only time in his career.
• Final game we lose yet another winnable game vs. Miami as Herm has officially completed the exorcism of the Jets demons that had plagued Miami.
• Herm decided that the only RB on the team with breakaway speed (Jordan) will now be relegated to goal-line & short-yardage duty. Never mind that he’s a “RB with power” rather than a “power RB.” This is also announced, so any opponent who sees him come into the game (when it’s not garbage-time) is fully aware that the next play will be a handoff to Jordan (more than half his year’s carries were in 2-3 TE sets). In doing this for the entire season, Jordan still has a higher YPC than the “underrated warrior” RB who has the whole field and all the first-second downs to work with unless it’s garbage time to run out the clock at the end of a half. Though healthy, Jordan finishes the year with 46 carries, only 15 of which came after November 1st & only one carry after December 1st.
• On the year, a staggering 87% of the RB carries (including garbage time) went to Curtis Martin so he could amass 1300 yards. By comparison, Jamal Lewis with over 2000 yards got 81%; Ahman Green with almost 1900 yards at 75%.
• Santana Moss starts the year buried behind Wayne Chrebet and Coles replacement–Curtis Conway. No amount of dropped balls gets Conway out of the starting lineup. Only an injury. Once he was finally given the chance, Moss explodes like we all hoped he would when we traded up to draft him two years earlier. He explodes, for 1100 yards and 10 TDs despite only starting 12 games. Numbers never to be approached again until traded.
• Opponents’ records were combined 135-121 (.527), owing much to playing the 14-2 Patriots twice (otherwise we still only went 6-8 (.428) against opponents with a combined .477 win percentage.
• Missed the playoffs
• Two went to the Pro Bowl (Ellis, Mawae).
• Offense was #23 in yards, #21 in pts
• Defense was #20 in yards, #8 in points. Ted Cottrell is fired in the offseason.

2004 NYJ: 10-6

• Team is given the gift of the easiest schedule to start the season in recent memory and win all five of those games, including the Bengals (in Carson Palmer’s first NFL start); the Chargers (one game removed from the NFL’s worst team and two weeks removed from considering starting rookie Phillip Rivers at QB for the season); the 4-12 Dolphins (with no line, no RBs, and a QB controversy in full swing); the then 0-3 Bills; and the 2-14 49ers. Those teams’ combined record at the time of their games with the Jets was 1-11 (1-16 after the losses to the Jets).
• Despite the outcomes, nearly blew the games against the Bengals, Chargers, Bills, and even let the hapless 49ers get out to a 14-0 lead.
• Week 6 the Jets hold the SB champion Patriots (and owners of the #4 offense in 2004) to only 13 points. Our try-to-keep-it-close-until-the-end offensive scheme nets a paltry 7 points (though the rest of the NFL would average over 16 ppg against the Pats).
• After beating up the pathetic Dolphins, the Jets get embarrassed by the Bills as they give us flashbacks to the Ted Cottrell rush-d’s of the past watching Willis McGahee move the chains on 37 carries. Chad Pennington injures his shoulder in the game.
• With Quincy Carter starting effectively and the OL mauling the vaunted Ravens rush defense, the Jets take commanding control of the game, only to watch Hackett/Edwards needlessly attempt an unnecessary HB option that is intercepted and returned for a TD while the Jets were driving into Ravens territory.
• The same game Edwards is caught on camera having Dick Curl telling him how many timeouts we had & when they were to be used; Pennington coaching Herm to instruct Carter on what to do; the clock-killing debacle where Edwards can’t come up with a single play on his own at the end of regulation that put us in a position to have to choose between a play or a FG even though it wasn’t 4th down; also shots of the Ravens’ booth repeatedly and correctly predicting what play would be called as the 4th quarter wound down. In the post-game press conference, Edwards initially lies about a play being relayed to Carter with adequate time, to shift the blame onto the player, before retracting it upon realizing the replay of the game on NFL network showed the polar opposite.
• After beating the 4-12 Browns, 6-10 Cardinals, and 7-9 Texans, the Jets faced the Steelers and failed to score a touchdown as Jordan is stubbornly kept on the sideline despite Martin’s game-long ineffectiveness. (The average opponent scored 16 points per game against the Steelers; the Jets offense managed 12 total points in two games).
• At 10-4, the Jets needed to win one more game to lock up a playoff spot. They came out totally flat for a 23-7 loss vs. NE (the score doesn’t nearly depict how lopsided it was) before losing to the 7-8 Rams. A Buffalo loss to the Steelers 2nd & 3rd-stringers allows the Jets to advance to the post-season anyway.
• Jets squeak by the Chargers despite almost giving the game back on an unsportsmanlike penalty on what should have been the Chargers’ last play in regulation. Chargers missed an overtime FG and the Jets did not.
• Against Pittsburgh, the Jets failed to score a single offensive touchdown. The defense & special teams keep the Jets in the game and are in a position to win it with a field goal despite just missing one the previous possession. With the clock winding down, the Jets decide to predictably run up the middle twice (and get stuffed both times) before Edwards comes up with his crowning achievement as decision maker. Though at Heinz Field, the worst place to kick a FG in the country, and a weak-legged kicker who just missed from >40 yards, it is decided that a 41-yard FG is to be made into a 43-yard FG by kneeling on the ball (which would have been the longest FG ever made at Heinz Field at the time). Brien misses, Jets go on to lose the game.
• Opponents’ record: 134-122 (.523). Played NE (14-2) twice & Pittsburgh (15-1) & lost all 3 games; the other 13 games, Jets opponents record was 91-117 (.438).
• >.500 teams beat: Chargers (12-4), Bills (9-7), Seattle (9-7); also beat the Chargers in the playoffs.
• Two went to the Pro Bowl (J. Abraham, C. Martin).
• Offense was #12 in yds, #17 in pts
• Defense was #7 in yards, #4 in points.

2005:

• The playoff loss is placed on Brien, who is released after the draft, and Paul Hackett, who “resigned” at the close of the season.
• Strength & conditioning coach John Lott quits b/c Herm won't enforce weight restrictions with fines.
• Jets add Ty Law; lose Kareem MacKenzie, LaMont Jordan, Jason Ferguson, and Anthony Becht; trade Santana Moss for Laveranues Coles.
• To complement new OC Mike Heimerdinger, Edwards hires a few coaches who will be learning on the job just like he did. (Heimerdinger would end up coaching these coaches almost as much as the players for the entire season).
• Chad Pennington, who has a close personal relationship with Edwards, is not placed under any pressure to get his necessary shoulder surgery performed as soon as possible (since the recovery time will be lengthy, and the Jets would be installing a new offense under Mike Heimerdinger). Immediately after the season he goes on vacation for a few weeks before getting his necessary surgery. He is clearly neither fully healed nor game-ready by week 1.
• Division rival New England loses OC Charlie Weis and DC Romeo Crennel
• Jets then start losing players to injury right & left (and Herm has the nerve to act shocked after that softy training camp & then sticking with a system that repeatedly got McNair killed with a GOOD offensive line). Fumbled snaps, players winded, meetings with KC's brass the weekend of the Jets-Chiefs game. The season was over before the injuries. I don't even want to go into detail about last season there was so much wrong with it.[/QUOTE]

Extra Point
11-18-2007, 10:13 PM
Herm coached scared. "Obviously," you can't do that. Clark, clean house: Fire Carl, Herm and Dick. The rest can stay.

Dick Curl is the cancer of the coaching staff. If anything, give him a gold watch without any hands, and ask him to collect social security.

Zouk
11-18-2007, 10:14 PM
Hamas I don't have time to read the page-long rantings of a message board poster. If you give me a meaningful fact or 2 I can reply - but I can't go through all that.

Coach
11-18-2007, 10:15 PM
Hamas I don't have time to read the page-long rantings of a message board poster. If you give me a meaningful fact or 2 I can reply - but I can't go through all that.

To sum it up short.

Teams coached by Edwards have typically started most seasons with poor performances, leading to speculation that Edwards does a poor job of preparation in the preseason. With the exception of the 2004 season with the New York Jets, no team coached by Edwards has had a winning record after 6 games played. Additionally, Edwards' record on opening day of the NFL season is 2-5, and his teams have been outscored 186-125 (including 70-20 in the last 3 season openers, all losses) in these games.

For a player who made his name in the NFL on a time management gaffe, Edwards has committed a variety of time management decisions that vary from perplexing to embarrassing. These gaffes have been quite frustrating to the fans of the teams coached by Edwards.

Herm's game plans have often been criticized as too conservative with little or no imagination. A prime example of Edwards' game plans, the lone Chiefs 2007 playoff game was one of the worst offensive performances in recent history.

'Hamas' Jenkins
11-18-2007, 10:16 PM
Hamas I don't have time to read the page-long rantings of a message board poster. If you give me a meaningful fact or 2 I can reply - but I can't go through all that.

How's this for a meaningful fact?

We have lost more games than we have won with Herm as coach, just like the Jets did.

jjjayb
11-18-2007, 10:18 PM
I must have missed all those teams that held the Colts to 13 (3 of which came off a 10 yard field) in the RCA dome.

And I'm no relation to Herm or anyone else on the staff. Just an evangelizer.


They didn't need to score more than 13 to beat us so what does it matter. We lost. Getting close doesn't make me feel any better. But I'm glad Herm has got this team playing so bad that we feel good about losing close. It's so bad that we are happy to be 4-6 because the rest of our division is so crappy we are only a couple of games out of the hunt. Whatever. My mind hasn't been that warped that I'm happy for close losses and 4-6 records. Quit staring directly at the sun. It has fried your brain.

Zouk
11-18-2007, 10:19 PM
How's this for a meaningful fact?

We have lost more games than we have won with Herm as coach, just like the Jets did.

Unfortunately inevitable after inheriting a terrible D and the oldest O in the league. I think we'll be +.500 by the end of the year, and next year the fun wil really begin.

The Herm Jets record is obviously colored by the fact that in his last year the Jets went 4-12 because everyone got hurt and they had to play 5 QBs. Still better than Mangini with a fully healthy team, though.

boogblaster
11-18-2007, 10:27 PM
This team has talent spirit youth and vets .. it doesn't have game-day coaching ...

jjjayb
11-18-2007, 10:34 PM
Unfortunately inevitable after inheriting a terrible D and the oldest O in the league. I think we'll be +.500 by the end of the year, and next year the fun wil really begin.

The Herm Jets record is obviously colored by the fact that in his last year the Jets went 4-12 because everyone got hurt and they had to play 5 QBs. Still better than Mangini with a fully healthy team, though.

Is it a surprise they kept getting QB's hurt? He was as predictable then as he is now. Just letting Defenses tee up on his QB's with his predictable offense.

Nzoner
11-18-2007, 10:34 PM
Been there and done that 2 years ago

Zouk
11-18-2007, 10:38 PM
Is it a surprise they kept getting QB's hurt? He was as predictable then as he is now. Just letting Defenses tee up on his QB's with his predictable offense.


Are you saying he should call more runs on 3rd and longs so as not to leave the QB exposed?

StcChief
11-18-2007, 10:40 PM
most of the above. allowing Solari to call plays is close 2nd.

jjjayb
11-18-2007, 10:41 PM
Are you saying he should call more runs on 3rd and longs so as not to leave the QB exposed?

I'm saying quit being so predictable as run run pass punt. If it wasn't always run run pass maybe you wouldn't be in 3rd and long almost every time.

Mr. Flopnuts
11-18-2007, 10:49 PM
Today is the first time in almost 15 years that I missed an entire game. I saw the last 4 minutes but that doesn't count. Couldn't find it ANYWHERE on the internet. I just assumed you were all melting down and overreacting as usual. Coming from Rain Man, I'll believe it. Hopefully Gochiefs will post the torrent this week and I'll see it yet.

Claynus
11-18-2007, 10:55 PM
Hopefully Gochiefs will post the torrent this week and I'll see it yet.

Here's a crappy version someone already posted. It's 600 MB so it looks like crap I imagine.

http://forums.tenyardtorrents.com/viewtopic.php?id=7101

jjjayb
11-18-2007, 11:04 PM
Today is the first time in almost 15 years that I missed an entire game. I saw the last 4 minutes but that doesn't count. Couldn't find it ANYWHERE on the internet. I just assumed you were all melting down and overreacting as usual. Coming from Rain Man, I'll believe it. Hopefully Gochiefs will post the torrent this week and I'll see it yet.


Be prepared to see more Draw plays than you've ever seen in one game. I still can't believe how many times we ran that play today.

morphius
11-18-2007, 11:09 PM
The thing that bothers me is that when we didn't even try to score with 1:30 left in the first half I knew the game was lost and just didn't really care much anymore.

jjchieffan
11-18-2007, 11:11 PM
I would have liked to have seen what Herm could have done if he had come in at the end of DV's first contract, before the O-line went to shit and with Saunders running the O. We would have had the best chance in years. This D plus DV's O. Another screw up by Carl. DV should have been shown the door before he could leave the cupboard bare.

Boyceofsummer
11-18-2007, 11:32 PM
The draw happened at 7:08 in the game on 3rd and 18 on our own 37.

You could use as many caps as you want, but that play call is 100% standard in the league nowadays. Just about every team would do the same. The only ones who wouldn't either have Tom Brady at QB or are terrible.

I did not start watching until just before the tying touchdown in the third quarter. What I got from the play by play team for NBC was that the Chiefs had run the ball on first down the entire game and at this point in a tie game it would be wise to do something that was not expected. You know the rest of the story.

kregger
11-18-2007, 11:46 PM
The thing that bothers me is that when we didn't even try to score with 1:30 left in the first half I knew the game was lost and just didn't really care much anymore.
"You all think I'm a conservative coach. I'm not a conservative coach. I like to score points." YADA, YADA, YADA...
I'm beginning to think the NFL should only give Herm one time-out per half. He sure as hell won't use them on offense.
Throw the ball down the field. If it gets intercepted, let your fabulous D do what you expect them to do, shut the other team down.

thurman merman
11-19-2007, 12:18 AM
The draw happened at 7:08 in the game on 3rd and 18 on our own 37.


THE draw? you say that like there was only one?

Rain Man
11-25-2007, 02:30 PM
Top.



Can someone confirm something for me? Because honestly, I don't trust my own eyes on this, because it's so preposterous as to defy explanation.

Did we really give up a drive on first down? In the first half, we got a penalty that made it first and 20. Herman Edwards and Solari then called three straight draw plays to position us for a punt. Starting on first down, we ran three straight draw plays. We gave up on first down. First down. Not even second down. At this rate, Herman Edwards will be having our punt returner punt the ball back next week.

I want these people out of here so bad that I actually have a metallic taste in my mouth.

the Talking Can
11-25-2007, 02:33 PM
Top.



Can someone confirm something for me? Because honestly, I don't trust my own eyes on this, because it's so preposterous as to defy explanation.

Did we really give up a drive on first down? In the first half, we got a penalty that made it first and 20. Herman Edwards and Solari then called three straight draw plays to position us for a punt. Starting on first down, we ran three straight draw plays. We gave up on first down. First down. Not even second down. At this rate, Herman Edwards will be having our punt returner punt the ball back next week.

I want these people out of here so bad that I actually have a metallic taste in my mouth.

According to Zouk that is what every other coach in the league would do, it is common knowledge. You can't question Herm unless his balls are dangling close to your chin.

BigRedChief
11-26-2007, 05:05 AM
Top.



Can someone confirm something for me? Because honestly, I don't trust my own eyes on this, because it's so preposterous as to defy explanation.

Did we really give up a drive on first down? In the first half, we got a penalty that made it first and 20. Herman Edwards and Solari then called three straight draw plays to position us for a punt. Starting on first down, we ran three straight draw plays. We gave up on first down. First down. Not even second down. At this rate, Herman Edwards will be having our punt returner punt the ball back next week.

I want these people out of here so bad that I actually have a metallic taste in my mouth.
Yep, I was screaming WTF, just give up. Why try. Damn, that was embrassing.:banghead:

Amnorix
11-26-2007, 05:35 AM
Hello! You play to WIN THE GAME! Clearly three straight draws on first and 20 is so wildly unexpected that umm.........yeah.........I got nothing.

Skip Towne
11-26-2007, 05:53 AM
I'm beyond caring about the Chiefs. Wake me when it's over.

cookster50
11-26-2007, 06:31 AM
Enjoy the march for a top 5 draft pick!

Iowanian
11-26-2007, 07:36 AM
I am less and less disappointed with my bad girlfriend now, since I've just admitted to myself that she's a whore and she's given me herpes so we're connected for life.

I'll just appreciate the times she's being nice to me and know that she's planning an orgy in Sandy Eggo next sunday.

Chief Henry
11-26-2007, 08:23 AM
The KC Chiefs are the joke of the NFL...

It used to be the New Orlean Saints.

REDHOTGTO
11-26-2007, 08:57 AM
me sooooooo glad me dropped me's tickets