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Count Alex's Losses
11-19-2007, 11:23 PM
http://www.kansascity.com/sports/chiefs/story/368858.html

Edwards defends conservative approach to offense

Given any other team’s offensive players, Herm Edwards might have tried harder to match Peyton Manning and the Indianapolis Colts point for point.

Edwards is instead coaching the Chiefs, who are doing nothing consistently well when they’ve had the ball. That being the case, Edwards defended his decisions in Sunday’s 13-10 loss, saying the considerable offensive shortcomings leave him no realistic choice but to be what most fans consider ultra-conservative.

“There’s no room for error for us,” Edwards said Monday. “We have more three-and-outs than anybody in football. We have more negative plays than anybody in football. It’s hard playing that way. You put a lot of strain on the defense. So you’re trying to protect them, too. You don’t want your defense out there the whole game.

“Do I want to play that way? Heck, no. But we have to play that way. I’m trying to play the best way for the Chiefs to win the game.”

The subject obviously frustrated Edwards, who at times raised or lower his voice to make a point. He never wavered from his stance that an inability to make yards when running the ball or adequately protect the quarterback means the Chiefs are realistically squeezing every point possible from their offense.

“You have all of these great ideas that you want to use,” Edwards said. “There are a lot of things other teams are doing that we’d like to do. But we know what we are whether we like it or not. It’s been 10 weeks. You’re not going to all of a sudden evolve into something like New England. You’ve got to do what you feel you’re capable of doing.

“You know what you’re capable of doing and at the end of the day, you’re always trying to do things the players can be successful at. You can’t do things that won’t let your players be successful. You have to take some chances once in a while. I understand that. But there are (only) certain things we’re capable of doing.

“Would we like to do some different things? Sure. But you have to play to the strengths of your players. It looks like we’re conservative at times.

“We’re doing things in a way we feel we’re capable of doing them. As a staff, we’ve been with these players every day. We coach them every day. We know what they’re capable of doing. Whether everybody else believes that, it doesn’t matter. It might look conservative, but it’s a way of playing football that gives us the best opportunity to win.”

The Chiefs may have been able to squeeze more points near the end of the first half.

They took over at their 23 with 1 minute, 15 seconds and three timeouts left. The score was 3-3.

The Chiefs ran out the clock rather than try for points. Edwards ordered quarterback Brodie Croyle to hand the ball twice to Kolby Smith, once for 4 yards and the next for 5, rather than attempt a pass.

“We decided we were going to run the ball on the first play,” Edwards said. “If we got a first down, if we got 15 yards or so, then we were going to go for it. But that didn’t happen. And at that point I didn’t want to give (the Colts) momentum. They had two timeouts left. If we had taken almost no time off the clock with three incomplete passes and then we punted, we would have given the ball back to Peyton Manning with two timeouts.

“Then they get the ball back to start the third quarter. I’m not giving them two shots at me without us having even one. That makes no sense to me. I’m looking at all of that and saying, ‘Wait a minute.’ We survived the first half.

“Yeah, I was playing it conservative at that point. I guess people think we should take a chance because we were 14-point underdogs. But I’m trying to win the game. We were backed up. It was noisy. There were too many variables in that one.

“If I’m somebody else, then maybe I do it differently. But I know what I am right now.”

Against the Colts, Croyle made his first start in place of Damon Huard. Edwards made the change in part because of Croyle’s superior passing skills.

But the Chiefs declined to use those skills. His longest completion of the game was 19 yards, not counting the lateral on the game’s last play that gave him a statistical 21-yard gain.

Edwards indicated the Chiefs might try to throw more down the field in Sunday’s game against Oakland at Arrowhead Stadium.

“(The Colts) play a lot of cover 2,” Edwards said. “They’re not going to let you throw the ball down the field. They’ve only given up 10 plays of 20 yards passing. They don’t give up those plays.

“You’ll see the ball go down the field more against Oakland because they play more man to man. If we can get some one-on-one matchups we like, we’ll do it. That’s the next thing you try to do the next six weeks. This was his first game, and we had to get a feel for him emotionally and where he’s going to be. Now we can build on that.”

Guru
11-19-2007, 11:25 PM
Kiss my ass Herm.

KcMizzou
11-19-2007, 11:28 PM
So he's basically saying...

We realize we can't do anything, so we're not going to try to do anything.

Did I get that right?

KCFalcon59
11-19-2007, 11:28 PM
What a useless piece of shit head coach we have.

Count Alex's Losses
11-19-2007, 11:30 PM
So he's basically saying...

We realize we can't do anything, so we're not going to try to do anything.

Did I get that right?

That's what he said.

What's really aggravating is that they were MORE aggressive with a less-talented quarterback.

BRODIE MIGHT MAKE A MISTAKE! OH NOES!

Baconeater
11-19-2007, 11:31 PM
What's next, we punt on first down so there's no chance of having a negative play?

kc rush
11-19-2007, 11:33 PM
I'm afraid of what might happen, so I won't do anything.

Leader of men, my ass.

Guru
11-19-2007, 11:33 PM
That's what he said.

What's really aggravating is that they were MORE aggressive with a less-talented quarterback.

BRODIE MIGHT MAKE A MISTAKE! OH NOES!


Hey coach. What's our record again? How did we get here? What's that? By not taking a risk? Gee, imagine where we could be if you took a risk every now and then when the situation called for it.

Yeah, could be worse. But the opposite side of that outweighs it my miles. I think most can live with worse if we are at least trying.

dirk digler
11-19-2007, 11:33 PM
So he's basically saying...

We realize we can't do anything, so we're not going to try to do anything.

Did I get that right?

Basically.

The sad thing is him and Carl are the ones responsible for who is on this team so if the players suck I guess Herm can't evaluate offensive players then.

go bowe
11-19-2007, 11:33 PM
why oh why does herm love the terrorists and hate america?

er, why oh why does herm love the 2 yd run and hate scoring points?

oh, i forgot...

no arena ball allowed for this team...

not with herm as the head coach... :banghead:

Guru
11-19-2007, 11:33 PM
What's next, we punt on first down so there's no chance of having a negative play?
Ummm, blocked punt. :evil:

Zouk
11-19-2007, 11:34 PM
That's what he said.

What's really aggravating is that they were MORE aggressive with a less-talented quarterback.

BRODIE MIGHT MAKE A MISTAKE! OH NOES!

Did you see the part about the Colts averaging giving up only 1 pass play of over 20 yards per game over 10 games. And the fact that they average 2-3 interceptions or strip-sacks per home game. Those numbers are actually amazing.

FAX
11-19-2007, 11:34 PM
I think you nailed it, Mr. KcMizzou. Cognitive dissonance at work.

You know, if his own players (who, assumably, know themselves) think they can do more, Herm has no business accusing the "fans" of being unrealistic in thinking we should at least try to pick up first downs. Jesus.

He says that, if Kolby had run for 15 yards on first down, he would have gone for it. Hell, if Kolby could run for 15 yards, things would be entirely different for everybody. His excuses and explanations are literally ridiculous.

FAX

TinyEvel
11-19-2007, 11:34 PM
OMFG I really am beginning to think he's off his rocker.

When we hired Herm I was working with a Jets fan. He said, "Just wait, the guy makes BAD DECISIONS during games. You'll see."

Now I'm seeing.

“We have more three-and-outs than anybody in football. We have more negative plays than anybody in football..."

"BECAUSE THEY ARE RUNNING YOUR PLAYS!!!"

:banghead:
:cuss:

3rd and long and you hand it to your third string rookie running back? Or pass it to the line of scrimmage?

Zouk
11-19-2007, 11:35 PM
Hey coach. What's our record again? How did we get here? What's that? By not taking a risk? Gee, imagine where we could be if you took a risk every now and then when the situation called for it.


Actually we lost the most important game of the year (Broncos at home) by giving the opposition 14 quick points off our passing game. In other words, by taking a risk.

Guru
11-19-2007, 11:36 PM
OMFG I really am beginning to think he's off his rocker.

When we hired Herm Iwas working with a Jets fan. He said, "Just wait the guy makes BAD DECISIONS during games. You'll see."

Now I'm seeing.

What a cocksucker.

“We have more three-and-outs than anybody in football. We have more negative plays than anybody in football..."

"BECAUSE YOU ARE RUNNING YOUR PLAYS!!!"

:banghead:
:cuss:

But our team can't make first downs. As coach I can't change that. Obviously you are no coach Herm.

dirk digler
11-19-2007, 11:36 PM
I think you nailed it, Mr. KcMizzou. Cognitive dissonance at work.

You know, if his own players (who, assumably, know themselves) think they can do more, Herm has no business accusing the "fans" of being unrealistic in thinking we should at least try to pick up first downs. Jesus.

He says that, if Kolby had run for 15 yards on first down, he would have gone for it. Hell, if Kolby could run for 15 yards, things would be entirely different for everybody. His excuses and explanations are literally ridiculous.

FAX

LMAO. Yep.

KCFalcon59
11-19-2007, 11:36 PM
I am going to die before the Chiefs put a real team together. It just not fair.

Baconeater
11-19-2007, 11:37 PM
Ummm, blocked punt. :evil:
OMG! You're right, punting is waaaay too risky. Maybe we should just kneel down on 4th down. That would be the safest thing to do.

Count Alex's Losses
11-19-2007, 11:37 PM
Actually we lost the most important game of the year (Broncos at home) by giving the opposition 14 quick points off our passing game. In other words, by taking a risk.

That was TOO aggressive. They passed four straight times from the shadow of their own goal line.

They went to the other end of the spectrum against Indy. No downfield passing, and continuing to run when it wasn't working for shit.

Good offensive coaches find a happy medium.

Guru
11-19-2007, 11:37 PM
Actually we lost the most important game of the year (Broncos at home) by giving the opposition 14 quick points off our passing game. In other words, by taking a risk.

Wow!! Just wow. You are going to revert to two plays that we had the WRONG QB in the game to defend his decision? He made the decision that caused that friggin mess.

FAX
11-19-2007, 11:38 PM
Actually we lost the most important game of the year (Broncos at home) by giving the opposition 14 quick points off our passing game. In other words, by taking a risk.

Mr. Zouk, you are likely insane.

The INT was a dumb ass mistake by Downfield. The fumble was a dumb ass mistake by Downfield. The only risk we took there was putting his dumb ass on the field.

Are you saying we should never attempt to pass at all?

FAX

kc rush
11-19-2007, 11:38 PM
Hey coach. What's our record again? How did we get here? What's that? By not taking a risk? Gee, imagine where we could be if you took a risk every now and then when the situation called for it.

Yeah, could be worse. But the opposite side of that outweighs it my miles. I think most can live with worse if we are at least trying.

Herm will just say that we were aggressive with Huard in the second half of the Denver game, and look what happened. We will never ever do anything that might be the slightest bit risky ever ever again, so help me god. By the way, I was a player.

edit -

Damnit, I keep posting right after someone makes a similar point. I hope the repost police aren't feeling too aggressive tonight.

Guru
11-19-2007, 11:38 PM
OMG! You're right, punting is waaaay too risky. Maybe we should just kneel down on 4th down. That would be the safest thing to do.
Now you are using your noodle.

KcMizzou
11-19-2007, 11:40 PM
Saturday we'll see two football teams in Arrowhead who know how to win. (Not to mention WANT to)

I'm gettin' sick of you real quick-like, Herm.

Guru
11-19-2007, 11:44 PM
Saturday we'll see two football teams in Arrowhead who know how to win. (Not to mention WANT to)

I'm gettin' sick of you real quick-like, Herm.
There is a statement we all can agree on.

Sure-Oz
11-19-2007, 11:46 PM
Let the kid play the damn game herm!

Zouk
11-19-2007, 11:48 PM
Mr. Zouk, you are likely insane.

The INT was a dumb ass mistake by Downfield. The fumble was a dumb ass mistake by Downfield. The only risk we took there was putting his dumb ass on the field.

Are you saying we should never attempt to pass at all?

FAX


The same thing happened to Croyle in this game. He got blind-sided by an untouched Mathis. When we go to 7 stop drops, we consistently give the OTHER team a chance to score. That's the sorry truth Herm alludes to.

And in everyone's mind Croyle is Tom Brady, but in reality he's a QB starting his first game on the road in the toughest place to throw in the whole league. The last time he played extensively (the preseason), he threw 3 picks in 40 pass attempts. Often against second and third-stringers.

Mecca
11-19-2007, 11:48 PM
Herm's the kinda guy that would tell you what the Pats are doing isn't right and they should stop scoring after they have 20.

Count Alex's Losses
11-19-2007, 11:49 PM
The same thing happened to Croyle in this game. He got blind-sided by an untouched Mathis. When we go to 7 stop drops, we consistently give the OTHER team a chance to score. That's the sorry truth Herm alludes to.

You can throw past the sticks without a seven-step drop.

tk13
11-19-2007, 11:49 PM
I'll do it, since I've about been run off the board anyway. Everyone can yell at me. But I don't think our offense is good enough to take very many risks. I just don't. That doesn't mean you shouldn't throw the ball downfield a few times to keep someone honest... but I think if we want to "play to win", we probably shouldn't get too carried away on offense. I lost faith in this offense after the Denver game. That was a defense that got roasted for 40+ points by a gung-ho offense the week before, and we tried that and got totally demolished.

Mecca
11-19-2007, 11:50 PM
The same thing happened to Croyle in this game. He got blind-sided by an untouched Mathis. When we go to 7 stop drops, we consistently give the OTHER team a chance to score. That's the sorry truth Herm alludes to.

And in everyone's mind Croyle is Tom Brady, but in reality he's a QB starting his first game on the road in the toughest place to throw in the whole league. The last time he played extensively (the preseason), he threw 3 picks in 40 pass attempts. Often against second and third-stringers.

So? What's the point of packin it in? The Chiefs are not going to win anything this year, call a regular game plan see what he's got maybe he'll learn something.

Croyle gains nothing and the Chiefs don't either by having him throw the safest passes imaginable.

FAX
11-19-2007, 11:50 PM
This laughable bastard is really grasping at straws.

For example, the claims that he possesses vast, secret knowledge as to his players' limitations don't really stand up.

If Herm were truly able to evaluate player strengths and shortcomings, why the hell has Drummond been on the active squad for so long? Not to mention Downfield. He needs a new writer.

FAX

Zouk
11-19-2007, 11:51 PM
So? What's the point of packin it in? The Chiefs are not going to win anything this year, call a regular game plan see what he's got maybe he'll learn something.

Croyle gains nothing and the Chiefs don't either by having him throw the safest passes imaginable.

Wrong - he gains something by playing in close competitive games against good teams. He learns far less in blowout losses. Things will be opened up more for him as we move on.

boogblaster
11-19-2007, 11:51 PM
Herm's idiot game-decisions are like letting someone kick you in the nuts....

dirk digler
11-19-2007, 11:52 PM
If Herm was smart he would just go strictly with no huddle shotgun formations.

KCJohnny
11-19-2007, 11:53 PM
The Chiefs ran out the clock rather than try for points. Edwards ordered quarterback Brodie Croyle to hand the ball twice to Kolby Smith, once for 4 yards and the next for 5, rather than attempt a pass.

“We decided we were going to run the ball on the first play,” Edwards said. “If we got a first down, if we got 15 yards or so, then we were going to go for it. But that didn’t happen. And at that point I didn’t want to give (the Colts) momentum. They had two timeouts left. If we had taken almost no time off the clock with three incomplete passes and then we punted, we would have given the ball back to Peyton Manning with two timeouts.

“Then they get the ball back to start the third quarter. I’m not giving them two shots at me without us having even one. That makes no sense to me. I’m looking at all of that and saying, ‘Wait a minute.’ We survived the first half.


I hadn't thought about it that way.
In his own way, it makes sense. Except for one thing, Herm. Your defense kicked the living piss out of the Peytons in the 1st half and held them to just 73 yards of total offense. Why not try and reward them with a real attempt to throttle the Colts? So what if they have given up only a few gains of 20+ yards. That's TONY GONZALES there. He is unstoppable. You have the rookie of the year who is like wise unstoppable. And you have a fearless QB with ice in his veins who PLAYS TO WIN THE GAME.

I love ya, Herm, but you have not realy convinced the Chiefs faithful on this one.

philfree
11-19-2007, 11:54 PM
As much I wanna see more plays I have thought that the reason we don't run a screen is because our linemen can't out to block it. It was a pretty good defense by Herm but with a fresh set of downs and 7 minutes on the clock in a tie game it was time to go for it.

PhilFree:arrow:

dirk digler
11-19-2007, 11:55 PM
I'll do it, since I've about been run off the board anyway. Everyone can yell at me. But I don't think our offense is good enough to take very many risks. I just don't. That doesn't mean you shouldn't throw the ball downfield a few times to keep someone honest... but I think if we want to "play to win", we probably shouldn't get too carried away on offense. I lost faith in this offense after the Denver game. That was a defense that got roasted for 40+ points by a gung-ho offense the week before, and we tried that and got totally demolished.

Good to hear from you tk! Don't allow a few douchebags to run you off.

KCFalcon59
11-19-2007, 11:56 PM
The same thing happened to Croyle in this game. He got blind-sided by an untouched Mathis. When we go to 7 stop drops, we consistently give the OTHER team a chance to score. That's the sorry truth Herm alludes to.

And in everyone's mind Croyle is Tom Brady, but in reality he's a QB starting his first game on the road in the toughest place to throw in the whole league. The last time he played extensively (the preseason), he threw 3 picks in 40 pass attempts. Often against second and third-stringers.

The game plan was fine. At some point with the score 10-10 you have to think we could win this game. They didn't even try. That is what is annoying. They didn't even try.

Mecca
11-19-2007, 11:56 PM
Wrong - he gains something by playing in close competitive games against good teams. He learns far less in blowout losses. Things will be opened up more for him as we move on.

You just really love Herm don't ya......it's unfortunate that babying QB's and playing offense like that will not win you anything anymore.

Zouk
11-19-2007, 11:58 PM
What's pathetic is after having the Colts D on the field for 30 plus minutes by the 4th quarter, the Chiefs try a run on 1st and 10 on the final drive and lose 5 yards. They made Josh Thomas (Josh Thomas!) look like Jared Allen. Jason Dunn got demolished. It was stomach-turning.

Count Alex's Losses
11-20-2007, 12:00 AM
What's pathetic is after having the Colts D on the field for 30 plus minutes by the 4th quarter, the Chiefs try a run on 1st and 10 on the final drive and lose 5 yards. They made Josh Thomas (Josh Thomas!) look like Jared Allen. Jason Dunn got demolished. It was stomach-turning.

Yeah man. If Jason Dunn had done his job we could have gained TWO YARDS!!!

FAX
11-20-2007, 12:00 AM
The same thing happened to Croyle in this game. He got blind-sided by an untouched Mathis. When we go to 7 stop drops, we consistently give the OTHER team a chance to score. That's the sorry truth Herm alludes to.

And in everyone's mind Croyle is Tom Brady, but in reality he's a QB starting his first game on the road in the toughest place to throw in the whole league. The last time he played extensively (the preseason), he threw 3 picks in 40 pass attempts. Often against second and third-stringers.

Jesus, man. I know of no one who is comparing Croyle to Brady. If you're going to argue a point, please try and make some sense. This ass backwards logic is mind-numbing. For example, you make allowances for Croyle's first regular season start, but not his pre-season play? For better or worse, he appears to be the best quarterback on our roster. Should we take him out of the game so we don't accidentally give the other team a chance to score? Maybe it would be a good idea for Law to make a tackle. Or is that not a mistake?

Forgive me, you crazed loon, but I'll take Gonzo's opinion over anyone else's on this issue. Following your argument, we should just burn our uniforms and tell the league we're forfeiting the balance of our schedule because somebody on our team just might make an error.

FAX

Mecca
11-20-2007, 12:00 AM
The difference in that game was simple....at the end even with an offense with half their backups forced into starting roles, they had the balls to try to win it, the Chiefs didn't.

Count Alex's Losses
11-20-2007, 12:01 AM
The difference in that game was simple....at the end even with an offense with half their backups forced into starting roles, they had the balls to try to win it, the Chiefs didn't.

BINGO!

KcMizzou
11-20-2007, 12:01 AM
The difference in that game was simple....at the end even with an offense with half their backups forced into starting roles, they had the balls to try to win it, the Chiefs didn't.Sadly, you're right.

chiefsfan987
11-20-2007, 12:01 AM
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“Then they get the ball back to start the third quarter. I’m not giving them two shots at me without us having even one. That makes no sense to me. I’m looking at all of that and saying, ‘Wait a minute.’ We survived the first half.”

If Herm is so damned concerned about our opposition getting the ball on back to back possesions why doesn't he kick off in the first half when we win the toss? Its not like our offense is going to drive the ball anyways. Put your defense on the field and try to win the battle of field position. If you get behind which is what happens every week anyways at least you get the ball to start the second half.

KCJohnny
11-20-2007, 12:02 AM
What's pathetic is after having the Colts D on the field for 30 plus minutes by the 4th quarter, the Chiefs try a run on 1st and 10 on the final drive and lose 5 yards. They made Josh Thomas (Josh Thomas!) look like Jared Allen. Jason Dunn got demolished. It was stomach-turning.

Exactly. In warfare, we call it "situational awareness". Knowing where the enemy is and what the conditions are on the battlefield so that you can exploit opportunities for tactical advantage.

This was a tactical blunder as we played right into their strengths with a "play-not-to-lose" mentality that lost us the game.

Zouk
11-20-2007, 12:08 AM
Forgive me, you crazed loon, but I'll take Gonzo's opinion over anyone else's on this issue. Following your argument, we should just burn our uniforms and tell the league we're forfeiting the balance of our schedule because somebody on our team just might make an error.

FAX

I love Croyle - I want him to play. I just think expecting him to go into Indy where the Colts average giving up only 1 passing play of over 20 yards and get 2-3 interceptions or strip sacks a game and expecting him to light it up is unrealistic. Especially behind this O-line that nearly got him murdered in the 2nd quarter. Holthus is right - we played in the manner that gave us the best chance to win in overwhelmingly difficult surroundings. No one expected us to win, but we almost did by minimizing negative plays from our passing offense. It won't look like this when we're at home and playing against worse defenses.

tk13
11-20-2007, 12:09 AM
Good to hear from you tk! Don't allow a few douchebags to run you off.
Nah, I'm not offended by anyone. The fun is getting sucked out of this place. I just think Carl Peterson has pretty much flushed the optimism out of the fanbase, I can't blame anybody for that. We're pretty much playing for the future and I just think it's pointless to spend 100 posts about running out the clock at the end of the first half.

I don't think everything Herm's done is perfect or close to it, but I think there are far more positive things going on in this rebuilding effort than people realize because everyone's brain has been turned to mush over "mediocrity" and all that. Like Croyle... I'm a huge fan of the guy... but I really think letting him get 8 more weeks of practice snaps has made him look a lot better than he did at the end of the preseason when he looked rattled. I think Herm handled it fairly well, but he'll never get credit for that.

Zouk
11-20-2007, 12:10 AM
The difference in that game was simple....at the end even with an offense with half their backups forced into starting roles, they had the balls to try to win it, the Chiefs didn't.

They were without 3 starters, not half their offense. Manning, Addai, Wayne, and Clark is still plenty good. They were up 2 scores on the Pats a few weeks ago without Harrison too.

DaFace
11-20-2007, 12:18 AM
One thing is clear: Herm will never be a popular coach. Regardless of whether he ends up winning a game here and there, his methods are absolutely maddening. I've never been as close to throwing something through my new HDTV as I was last weekend.

FAX
11-20-2007, 12:21 AM
I have a serious question.

What other active coach in today's NFL is as conservative as Herm? I know a lot of people cite Martyball, but he's not active right now. Anyone else come to mind?

FAX

Baconeater
11-20-2007, 12:22 AM
One thing is clear: Herm will never be a popular coach. Regardless of whether he ends up winning a game here and there, his methods are absolutely maddening. I've never been as close to throwing something through my new HDTV as I was last weekend.
You need to get married and start a family so you can take your frustrations out on them. After all, their wounds will heal, but your TV sure as hell won't ever fix itself.

Mecca
11-20-2007, 12:23 AM
They were without 3 starters, not half their offense. Manning, Addai, Wayne, and Clark is still plenty good. They were up 2 scores on the Pats a few weeks ago without Harrison too.

Uh.....they were missing so many WR's Thorpe was on the field as a starter.....half their Oline was down.....

When it flashed up and said Croyle 8 completions for 44 yards that's is sad....you don't have to throw it 50 yards but you should average close to 10 yards a completion.

Constantly throwing 2 yard passes to Bowe is not my idea of passing offense.

KCJohnny
11-20-2007, 12:23 AM
I have a serious question.

What other active coach in today's NFL is as conservative as Herm? I know a lot of people cite Martyball, but he's not active right now. Anyone else come to mind?

FAX

Martyball looks like the GSoT compared to this offense.

Mecca
11-20-2007, 12:24 AM
I have a serious question.

What other active coach in today's NFL is as conservative as Herm? I know a lot of people cite Martyball, but he's not active right now. Anyone else come to mind?

FAX

Jack Del Rio is pretty conservative but I don't even think he's as bad as Herm....

Count Alex's Losses
11-20-2007, 12:25 AM
One thing is clear: Herm will never be a popular coach. Regardless of whether he ends up winning a game here and there, his methods are absolutely maddening. I've never been as close to throwing something through my new HDTV as I was last weekend.

Herm was winning some support by the bye week. It all came crashing down, though. Sad.

Count Alex's Losses
11-20-2007, 12:25 AM
Jack Del Rio is pretty conservative but I don't even think he's as bad as Herm....

Jack Del Rio can afford to be more conservative. His running game rewards that philosophy.

Herm's doesn't. He should adjust. In fact, he was, until they put in Brodie. Then it was back to runrunpasspunt.

Mecca
11-20-2007, 12:28 AM
No one is going to be forgiving of a coach that thinks a 6 point lead is enough to win against a team like GB, when we all see the Pats and Cowboys and even the Packers step on teams when they lead, no one is going to be forgiving about it these days.

KCJohnny
11-20-2007, 12:29 AM
Herm's going to bring in a boatload of young players over the summer. We are about to get MUCH younger on offense.

Count Alex's Losses
11-20-2007, 12:30 AM
No one is going to be forgiving of a coach that thinks a 6 point lead is enough to win against a team like GB.

Uhhhhhhhhhhhh.....

We had a six point lead and then the defense blew it. We never had the ball with a six-point lead against Green Bay.

Mecca
11-20-2007, 12:33 AM
Who thinks it's a good idea for Donnie Edwards to cover a slot WR running a seam?

Count Alex's Losses
11-20-2007, 12:47 AM
Who thinks it's a good idea for Donnie Edwards to cover a slot WR running a seam?

Shit happens. The Chiefs were in Cover 2. It took a PERFECT throw to beat it.

Dylan
11-20-2007, 01:31 AM
Given any other team’s offensive players, Herm Edwards might have tried harder to match Peyton Manning and the Indianapolis Colts point for point.

I only wish that there was some way for this paragragh to be used in journalism classes as an example of what not to do if you are serious about a professional career in newspaper industry.

I know the statement is a nice dream, but a dream with research is worth exploring.

Fruit Ninja
11-20-2007, 01:35 AM
Hmm.. he doesnt want to put the Defense out on the field and put pressure on them if we turn the ball over. Ok, we turned it over once. Played Hermball, yet the Defense still had all kinds of pressure on them. Ok. Thx Herm.

Dylan
11-20-2007, 01:37 AM
Herm -- throwing the team under the bus.

Fruit Ninja
11-20-2007, 01:40 AM
He contradicts his self so much it kind of makes me sick.

When you have the Superbowl champs tied in the 4th quarter, you try to go for the throat. I can understand him not going for it right before halftime. I actually agree'd with that call. In the 4th quarter we played scared towards the end. What the **** does he think? that Payton Manning isnt going to eventually score? this was the first game they were held to under 20 points. A score was GOING to happen.

I know Herm wants to beleive in his defense, but he has to be ****ing realistic here.

Fruit Ninja
11-20-2007, 01:42 AM
Herm's going to bring in a boatload of young players over the summer. We are about to get MUCH younger on offense.
Only on the line. We may get a blocking TE, but thats it.

mrub4
11-20-2007, 01:42 AM
http://www.kansascity.com/sports/chiefs/story/368858.html

Given any other team’s offensive players, Herm Edwards might have tried harder to match Peyton Manning and the Indianapolis Colts point for point.


BS!! If Herm were head coach of the Patriots and he'd still be running his patented runrunpasspunt offense and Brady would have as many TDs total at this point in the season as he does in one game with Bellicheat

Fruit Ninja
11-20-2007, 01:45 AM
Actually we lost the most important game of the year (Broncos at home) by giving the opposition 14 quick points off our passing game. In other words, by taking a risk.
Yep, by having Huard in there. I knwo Terry blew the tackle, but Huards will was destroyed by then. Just by watching him on the sideline. He was done. He had no desire to play the game of football at that point.

RedThat
11-20-2007, 01:56 AM
Wow...If I was a player I would never want to play for Herm. NEVER!

He summed himself up really really bad in this article. And yes Im really reading into it a lot.

Guru
11-20-2007, 01:56 AM
One thing is clear: Herm will never be a popular coach. Regardless of whether he ends up winning a game here and there, his methods are absolutely maddening. I've never been as close to throwing something through my new HDTV as I was last weekend.
Maybe you had better give that TV to me. I have grown immune to the Chiefs of late and the urge the throw things never comes into play anymore. ;)

Fruit Ninja
11-20-2007, 01:58 AM
Maybe you had better give that TV to me. I have grown immune to the Chiefs of late and the urge the throw things never comes into play anymore. ;)
I just laugh now and flip Herm off when they show him on tv. lol I just cant beleive we are now the 2006 Raiders on offense. :( Its sad, but i can laugh.

Ari Chi3fs
11-20-2007, 02:01 AM
Saturday we'll see two football teams in Arrowhead who know how to win. (Not to mention WANT to)

I'm gettin' sick of you real quick-like, Herm.


No shit. Rep.

Ari Chi3fs
11-20-2007, 02:03 AM
come on. You play for field position.

blueballs
11-20-2007, 02:38 AM
A 2nd for a crying old man
and a 4th for an imbecle
Carl---YOU'RE FIRED

Guru
11-20-2007, 02:44 AM
A 2nd for a crying old man
and a 4th for an imbecle
Carl---YOU'RE FIRED
He definitely knows how to waste draft picks doesn't he? :banghead:

Messier
11-20-2007, 04:22 AM
I think he's saying, boy do we need new o-linemen in the off season.

Bob Dole
11-20-2007, 05:01 AM
Actually we lost the most important game of the year (Broncos at home) by giving the opposition 14 quick points off our passing game. In other words, by taking a risk.

Actually, we lost that game by refusing to make the obviously needed QB change at the half.

Pushead2
11-20-2007, 05:45 AM
I think he's saying, boy do we need new o-linemen in the off season.

I think he's saying "Oh shit I am a terrible coach with a terrible offensive mind and I have no clue what the **** to do."

CrazyHorse
11-20-2007, 05:46 AM
So, in essence he's saying he was worried about the offense being on the field and the defense being on the field.

My favorite quote of the article? "We survived the 1st half".

Trying to eat clock with a 3-3 tie? Is he retarded?

CrazyHorse
11-20-2007, 05:49 AM
YOU PLAY.......to survive the 1st half.

BigRedChief
11-20-2007, 06:25 AM
OMG! You're right, punting is waaaay too risky. Maybe we should just kneel down on 4th down. That would be the safest thing to do.
What if it's a bad snap? Maybe the QB should just take a knee.

chiefsfan987
11-20-2007, 06:29 AM
So, in essence he's saying he was worried about the offense being on the field and the defense being on the field.

ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL

BigRedChief
11-20-2007, 06:43 AM
If we are going to give up on 3rd and long and run a draw and then punt why not take a long shot down the field to Bowe. Maybe he gets a pass interferance? He goes up and gets the jump ball? Or maybe it goes all the way.

Either way its a small risk if we are punting and gaining a net 30 yards anyway. So we throw an interception. Most of the time those long pass plays the reciever tackles the guy right there anyway.

HMc
11-20-2007, 06:45 AM
It's amazing that he's so frightened of failure.

HMc
11-20-2007, 06:49 AM
If we are going to give up on 3rd and long and run a draw and then punt why not take a long shot down the field to Bowe. Maybe he gets a pass interferance? He goes up and gets the jump ball? Or maybe it goes all the way.

Either way its a small risk if we are punting and gaining a net 30 yards anyway. So we throw an interception. Most of the time those long pass plays the reciever tackles the guy right there anyway.

I was going to post the exact same thing. Just hurl it deep and you never know what happens, you've still got 2 downs for the clouds of dust and then MVP colquitt

FringeNC
11-20-2007, 06:49 AM
This season's college football makes a mockery of Herm's excuses. Teams like Appalachian State against Michigan just don't give up and try to keep the score close because they don't have equal or better talent at every position. The get creative, take risks, find ways to leverage the talent that they have to TRY TO WIN.

Mecca
11-20-2007, 06:53 AM
I think he's saying "Oh shit I am a terrible coach with a terrible offensive mind and I have no clue what the **** to do."

Actually what he is saying is "it's not my fault it's these other guys over here......LOOK!"

Same thing he did in NY it's how he is.

the Talking Can
11-20-2007, 06:58 AM
So he's basically saying...

We realize we can't do anything, so we're not going to try to do anything.

Did I get that right?

that's EXACTLY what he said....

we gave up before the game even started

Herm was convinced we couldn't win, so he never even let Brodie try....

makes me sick, ****ing loser

CrazyHorse
11-20-2007, 07:00 AM
If we are going to give up on 3rd and long and run a draw and then punt why not take a long shot down the field to Bowe. Maybe he gets a pass interferance? He goes up and gets the jump ball? Or maybe it goes all the way.

Either way its a small risk if we are punting and gaining a net 30 yards anyway. So we throw an interception. Most of the time those long pass plays the reciever tackles the guy right there anyway.

That decision would cost us at least 30 seconds we could have run off the clock by just running the ball. You must understand that we have no chance of converting a 1st down. :rolleyes:

DaKCMan AP
11-20-2007, 07:01 AM
From early Nov.

"We're still a couple of players short. But we have laid down a solid foundation.
The offense is not where it needs to be. We are a team in transition. You can't do both sides of the ball at the same time. The greatest thing is we're still finding ways to win."

I'll give Herm another offseason to build this team and, specifically, the offense. If things don't change next year I'll jump off the bandwagon.

the Talking Can
11-20-2007, 07:03 AM
can somone ask Herm why he would rather "not try, and lose" as opposed to "to a risk, and maybe win"?

I've never seen a coach before who would rather lose than task a risk.

Thanks Carl. Go ****ing kill yourself.

Count Alex's Losses
11-20-2007, 07:04 AM
Thanks Carl. Go ****ing kill yourself.

Haven't you heard? Carl doesn't have final say on head coaches. Surely the Hunts are to blame!!!

jjjayb
11-20-2007, 07:07 AM
He makes no sense. "we have more 3 and outs than any other team in the league, so we need to stay conservative to keep our D off the field." Uhmmm, Idiot. 3 and outs are what is keeping your D on the field. :rolleyes:

the Talking Can
11-20-2007, 07:17 AM
I'm sure the players are thrilled to find out that their coach had given up before the game even started.

Herm to Allen: "Jared, I need you play your ass off because I have already decided that we won't try to score any points."

Herm to Brodie: "Brodie, I know you have a big strong arm and big strong WR, and a big strong hall of fame TE, but I've already decided that we can't score, or win, so just don't throw any ints or fumble any snaps and we'll call it a success, ok?"

Herm to Team before game: "Men, there comes a point in life when you have to give up. This is that point. It is very important that we don't throw any ints, or fumble any snaps. So, in order to make sure that happens we aren't even going to try. Remember: NOTHNG IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN AVOIDING RISK, NOT EVEN WINNING."

King_Chief_Fan
11-20-2007, 07:17 AM
http://www.kansascity.com/sports/chiefs/story/368858.html

“You know what you’re capable of doing and at the end of the day, you’re always trying to do things the players can be successful at. You can’t do things that won’t let your players be successful. You have to take some chances once in a while. I understand that. But there are (only) certain things we’re capable of doing.

“Would we like to do some different things? Sure. But you have to play to the strengths of your players. It looks like we’re conservative at times.

“We’re doing things in a way we feel we’re capable of doing them. As a staff, we’ve been with these players every day. We coach them every day. We know what they’re capable of doing. Whether everybody else believes that, it doesn’t matter. It might look conservative, but it’s a way of playing football that gives us the best opportunity to win.”

In sumary: These players stink and I am doing the best I can with these incompetent tools.


“We decided we were going to run the ball on the first play,” Edwards said. “If we got a first down, if we got 15 yards or so, then we were going to go for it. But that didn’t happen. And at that point I didn’t want to give (the Colts) momentum.

ROFLROFLROFL Let't run the ball and hope to get 15 yards on that play?
It takes the Chiefs 10 carries to get 15 yards. This idiot has got to go.

digi2fish
11-20-2007, 07:18 AM
Now he blame it on the talent of the players.
What the hell did we hire him for?

FIRE HERM NOW!

:#

Lonewolf Ed
11-20-2007, 07:31 AM
The same thing happened to Croyle in this game. He got blind-sided by an untouched Mathis. When we go to 7 stop drops, we consistently give the OTHER team a chance to score. That's the sorry truth Herm alludes to.

And in everyone's mind Croyle is Tom Brady, but in reality he's a QB starting his first game on the road in the toughest place to throw in the whole league. The last time he played extensively (the preseason), he threw 3 picks in 40 pass attempts. Often against second and third-stringers.

A lot of that was due to the offense being run in the preseason, which was low-fat, low-sodium, hint of vanilla ice cream and the o-line was even worse then.

old_geezer
11-20-2007, 07:33 AM
Haven't taken the time to read through all this thread, but Herm's statements are the final wet towel on this season for me.

So he has no confidence in his team to actually move the ball so he becomes ultra-conservative on offense and then he blames all the 3-and-outs as his reason for being ultra-conservative? What a mindless moron. Does he actually have no clue that his play-calling is the MAIN REASON for all the 3-and-outs? We're not a very glod offense, but we could be a whole hell of a lot better if we had a coach who actually tried to score points.

Chief Chief
11-20-2007, 07:36 AM
When KC had the ball with 1:35 to go in the first half, I would have bet everything I owned that they would run that draw play. Nearly every team in that situation does it, thinking that if they make a good gain then, and only then, will they start passing the ball to move on down the field and score points. Of course, if they don't get very far with the draw run, the clock is running and they can continue to kill the clock.

Herm's playing what I call Fear Factor Football. He rarely sent his defense in on blitzes against pass-savvy QBs like Manning and Favre 'cuz he feared they would pick his thinned secondary apart. He fears throwing the ball more than 20 yards down field 'cuz he thinks (1) Croyle will get sacked or (2) the opp's defense will intercept the ball.

But, what difference did this make? Manning and Favre still completed passes when we dropped 7 into coverage, and our offense couldn't string enough 3-yard runs and short pass completions to come up with a series of first downs to get into the end zone enough times.

CoMoChief
11-20-2007, 07:41 AM
Man I hope the players read this article, or at least heard him say this. He just threw the entire offense underneath the bus.

The point is we have never tried anything different. He just flat out refuses to. We actually have a QB that can throw downfield and we dont even attempt to do it.

“We decided we were going to run the ball on the first play,” Edwards said. “If we got a first down, if we got 15 yards or so, then we were going to go for it. But that didn’t happen. And at that point I didn’t want to give (the Colts) momentum."

**** YOU Herm!!!! At what point do you think we are gonna run the ball for 15 yards on first down when we've only done that a handful of times this entire season? You simply don't have the killer instinct that it takes in this league to win. It's also funny how you say you dont wanna give the Colts momentum, but yet you run a draw play on 3rd and 18, basically just say **** it we're gonna punt it whether you like it or not, and give the ball back to Manning and Co. and not even try to throw for the first down? Oh no we may turn it over and throw for a INT. Big deal, we were gonna give them the ball back anyways.

You're a gutless PoS Herm

HemiEd
11-20-2007, 07:43 AM
So he's basically saying...

We realize we can't do anything, so we're not going to try to do anything.

Did I get that right?

You got it right. Last time I heard a Chiefs coach talk like that, it was Marv Levy explaining why he installed the wing T. We had no talent in his opinion. That is what Herm is saying, should really boost the players confidence and moral. Damn this guy is the polar opposite of Vermiel.

Count Alex's Losses
11-20-2007, 07:50 AM
Damn this guy is the polar opposite of Vermiel.

Not really. They both have gigantic flaws that cause them to field teams that only win half their games in the long haul.

Dick's way was noisier. Herm's is a little quieter.

It's quite shocking, the similarities in fact. After two years with Dick, everyone was calling for Robinson's head. After two years with Herm, everyone is going to be calling for Solari's head.

And of course Herm and Dick are bestest buddies.

We'll see if Herm learns from his mistake (hiring a crappy coordinator) sooner than Dick learned from his. Dick waited a year too long to fire Robinson. Does Herm have the balls to show his buddy the door before it's too late? If we waste another year of Gonzalez and LJ's careers, it might be too late.

DaKCMan AP
11-20-2007, 07:53 AM
You got it right. Last time I heard a Chiefs coach talk like that, it was Marv Levy explaining why he installed the wing T. We had no talent in his opinion. That is what Herm is saying, should really boost the players confidence and moral. Damn this guy is the polar opposite of Vermiel.

And Marv Levy proved to be a terrible coach. :rolleyes:

Herm gets one more year from me to build his team. Then it's all on him.

Mecca
11-20-2007, 07:55 AM
Not really. They both have gigantic flaws that cause them to field teams that only win half their games in the long haul.

Dick's way was noisier. Herm's is a little quieter.

It's quite shocking, the similarities in fact. After two years with Dick, everyone was calling for Robinson's head. After two years with Herm, everyone is going to be calling for Solari's head.

And of course Herm and Dick are bestest buddies.

We'll see if Herm learns from his mistake (hiring a crappy coordinator) sooner than Dick learned from his. Dick waited a year too long to fire Robinson. Does Herm have the balls to show his buddy the door before it's too late? If we waste another year of Gonzalez and LJ's careers, it might be too late.

Herm isn't loyal like Vermiel, if it saves his ass he will blame and fire anyone and everyone he can. But in the end nothing will change because Herm has total control over everything, just like that quote in his book "I'm the head coach you do what I say" He dictates and when it doesn't work he blames the guy who did what he was told to do...

HemiEd
11-20-2007, 08:00 AM
I have a serious question.

What other active coach in today's NFL is as conservative as Herm? I know a lot of people cite Martyball, but he's not active right now. Anyone else come to mind?

FAX

The Bears fans are complaining about Lovie Smiths conservatism, but they have no ****ing idea how bad it can get.

Count Alex's Losses
11-20-2007, 08:01 AM
Herm isn't loyal like Vermiel

I guess we're gonna find out. He kept Drummond and Welbourn out there way too long (and Welbourn is still playing). He has a long-time relationship with Mike Solari and he's been throwing "the talent" under the bus for weeks now. And the guy loves Dick Curl like his own father. He keeps him in his back pocket everywhere.

Watch the guy drop Saxon and Joiner like hot potatoes though....cus you know, they were Dick's coaches.

Dave Lane
11-20-2007, 08:12 AM
What's next, we punt on first down so there's no chance of having a negative play?

No too risky. It could get blocked. Just Fumble the ball forward 40 yards on 1st down thats the real NFL play.

Dave

Bwana
11-20-2007, 08:13 AM
"I play to lose the game."

~Herm~

Dave Lane
11-20-2007, 08:16 AM
Herm isn't loyal like Vermiel, if it saves his ass he will blame and fire anyone and everyone he can. But in the end nothing will change because Herm has total control over everything, just like that quote in his book "I'm the head coach you do what I say" He dictates and when it doesn't work he blames the guy who did what he was told to do...

Amen. Herm will use his coordinators like a wedge on a kickoff, he'll stay behind them all the way and let them catch the big hits.

He's a pussy deluxe

Dave

Chiefs_Mike_Topeka
11-20-2007, 08:23 AM
Another example of a head coach that thinks fans are not intelligent enough to understand the game.

Hey Herm; STFU your a football coach, what you do is purely to provide entertainment for fans. And to keep having this nose up attitude that no one can understand the difficulty of you job is a joke. You make your job difficult by being a moron. Don't try and feed us this load of shit that what your doing is the best way, your own players don't agree with that.

I can assure you that 90% of the fans watching your joke of a gameplan weekly can virtually call every play during the game, thats how much of a complete farce your offense is.

If you want to play that way; fine, it sucks I don't like it, but nothing I can do about it. But don't try and convince fans that your the great and almighty football God and we are just a bunch of mindless idiots that will fall in step with what ever you say.

Chiefnj2
11-20-2007, 08:27 AM
How much room do the Chiefs have left in cap room this year that they didn't spend?

They couldn't give up a 5th round pick in the supplemental draft for Gaither?

A large part of the OL problems fall on Carl for thinking the team was going to be successful in a power running scheme with Weigman, Welbourn and Terry/Turley.

Carl could have given Herm a few more tools to run his fraidy cat offense.

kc rush
11-20-2007, 08:34 AM
How long until the Chiefs have a players only meeting and tell Herm how it is?

I'm not talking mutiny, just letting the coach know that they are capable of more and would like to be given the chance to win.

Mecca
11-20-2007, 08:37 AM
How long until the Chiefs have a players only meeting and tell Herm how it is?

I'm not talking mutiny, just letting the coach know that they are capable of more and would like to be given the chance to win.

Herm would then tell them he's the coach and to get on the bus.....

Dave Lane
11-20-2007, 08:41 AM
How much room do the Chiefs have left in cap room this year that they didn't spend?

They couldn't give up a 5th round pick in the supplemental draft for Gaither?

A large part of the OL problems fall on Carl for thinking the team was going to be successful in a power running scheme with Weigman, Welbourn and Terry/Turley.

Carl could have given Herm a few more tools to run his fraidy cat offense.


For the love of god this team is not that much worse on O than when DV had it.

Playmakers:

LJ
TG
Priest
Bowe
Kennison
Croyle
Waters

Thats a damn good nucleus and capable if Al Saunders was still OC of putting up 20-25 pts per game.

ITS ****ING HERM PEOPLE!!!

Dave

Mecca
11-20-2007, 08:43 AM
It's partially the Oline, and Kennison's age has caught him at this point with his constant injuries. LJ isn't the same player anymore, but that is Herm's fault so you can blame him there.

But even if they had the exact right players they wouldn't score more than 17-20 points just because of how Herm wants the offense to play. He actually thinks scoring a bunch of points hurts the defense.

HemiEd
11-20-2007, 08:47 AM
Not really. They both have gigantic flaws that cause them to field teams that only win half their games in the long haul.

Dick's way was noisier. Herm's is a little quieter.

It's quite shocking, the similarities in fact. After two years with Dick, everyone was calling for Robinson's head. After two years with Herm, everyone is going to be calling for Solari's head.

And of course Herm and Dick are bestest buddies.

We'll see if Herm learns from his mistake (hiring a crappy coordinator) sooner than Dick learned from his. Dick waited a year too long to fire Robinson. Does Herm have the balls to show his buddy the door before it's too late? If we waste another year of Gonzalez and LJ's careers, it might be too late.

Dick never, ever wanted to throw anyone else under the bus. He hated it when Robinson had to go. He was a true leader of men, consequently, you never heard any of the players speak out against the team like Tony is right now.
Herm ****ing Edwards had not been shown where the shitter was, before he started throwing people under the bus.
First it was Vermeil, then Solari, and now it has progressed to the offensive talent. We don't have good enough players to play offense.

Mecca
11-20-2007, 08:49 AM
That's Herm he was like that in NY too, he will throw anyone and everyone under the bus to save himself.

Coogs
11-20-2007, 08:50 AM
I have not read this entire thread, but I intend to do so throughought the day. I really do not have a problem with what we did for 3+ quarters last Sunday. Even the before half thing where we ran out the clock with 3 timeouts left. I thought it was a brilliant gameplan in fact. Tied at 10 with under 10 minutes to go in the game with the defending Super Bowl Champs on their home turf... and comming off of two straigth losses. I thought it was pretty much perfect.

At that point though, I think they should haved handed the keys over to Croyle. Something like this... "OK Brodie... we got you to this point in the game tied. Do your thing. We are only going to have probably 2 more posessions at best from this point on in. Go do your thing. Don't worry about making any mistakes, just do your thing. You have Gonzo, Bowe, Kennison, and Holmes in your passing scheme... use them. Take us down the field.... beat the Colts... and the city... Kansas City... will be yours."

Instead we handed off on first down both times. Had 2nd and long both times. Brodie got us out of the first one, but couldn't overcome the second one. And Manning did the rest.

Chiefnj2
11-20-2007, 08:51 AM
For the love of god this team is not that much worse on O than when DV had it.

Playmakers:

LJ
TG
Priest
Bowe
Kennison
Croyle
Waters

Thats a damn good nucleus and capable if Al Saunders was still OC of putting up 20-25 pts per game.

ITS ****ING HERM PEOPLE!!!

Dave

Do you really think the OL is doing a good job run blocking?

LJ is hurt. Priest is 2 years removed from football. Kennison is past his prime and can't stay healthy. Croyle is just learning the game as is Bowe.

The nucleus isn't nearly as good as you think. It's made worse by poor playcalling and an overly afraid approach to the game.

HemiEd
11-20-2007, 08:54 AM
Herm isn't loyal like Vermiel, if it saves his ass he will blame and fire anyone and everyone he can. But in the end nothing will change because Herm has total control over everything, just like that quote in his book "I'm the head coach you do what I say" He dictates and when it doesn't work he blames the guy who did what he was told to do...

Exactly, and I had an open mind and positive attitude towards Herm ****ing Edwards when he came on board.

However, Dick Vermeil was supposedly his friend, Herm ****ing Edwards began bad mouthing him shortly after he got here.

I have been around those kind of assholes before, they are all the same and he is proving it once again.

Count Alex's Losses
11-20-2007, 08:58 AM
However, Dick Vermeil was supposedly his friend, Herm ****ing Edwards began bad mouthing him shortly after he got here.


That is quite a reach on your part.

Mecca
11-20-2007, 09:01 AM
That is quite a reach on your part.

Really? Before he ever coached a game he went on and on about how it was wrong to run up the score on Cincy....

HemiEd
11-20-2007, 09:09 AM
Really? Before he ever coached a game he went on and on about how it was wrong to run up the score on Cincy....

Exactly, and don't forget the "Circus Offense" comments that followed.

Count Alex's Losses
11-20-2007, 09:12 AM
Exactly, and don't forget the "Circus Offense" comments that followed.

You sure like to paint silly pictures.

bobbything
11-20-2007, 09:14 AM
Wow. That article is a little disheartening. I understand giving a team respect, and recognizing the strengths and weaknesses of both teams, however, to say things like, "We survived the 1st half" simply tells me that he never believed he had a shot at winning this game. The Chiefs "survived" the 1st half?? Yippie!! Moral victories all around!!

This is the NFL. This isn't Kentucky Institute of Technology going up against USC. You simply cannot go into a game with a defeatists attitude by saying, "We're gonna play four-corners and hope we get out of the 1st half unscathed."

That mentality is nonsense.

Mecca
11-20-2007, 09:14 AM
This shit really happened, that isn't painting a picture.

Then after the year, Trent Green and Terry Shea are both gone and any sort of downfield, creative playcalling, pretty much any decent pass plays are gone from the offense. They are not nearly as aggressive...that should tell you how Herm wants to play and why he wanted the guys who were going against what he wanted were put out of here.

HemiEd
11-20-2007, 09:15 AM
You sure like to paint silly pictures.

Someday, when you have some experience, you may understand.

HemiEd
11-20-2007, 09:17 AM
This shit really happened, that isn't painting a picture.

Then after the year, Trent Green and Terry Shea are both gone and any sort of downfield, creative playcalling, pretty much any decent pass plays are gone from the offense. They are not nearly as aggressive...that should tell you how Herm wants to play and why he wanted the guys who were going against what he wanted were put out of here.

NO Question about it, this is now HERM'S TEAM by God!!!!!!!!!!!!!! He got rid of that other guy's team!

Count Alex's Losses
11-20-2007, 09:18 AM
Someday, when you have some experience, you may understand.

I understand completely.

You're in love with Dick Vermeil and think he can do no wrong.

You hate Herm Edwards and think he's crap.

The truth is Vermeil did nothing in five years here. Herm Edwards so far has done nothing, but should be afforded the same chance Vermeil got.

Mecca
11-20-2007, 09:20 AM
I understand completely.

You're in love with Dick Vermeil and think he can do no wrong.

You hate Herm Edwards and think he's crap.

The truth is Vermeil did nothing in five years here. Herm Edwards so far has done nothing, but should be afforded the same chance Vermeil got.

At least I thought Vermiel was honest and his players respected him....I think Edwards is a carny clown.

Count Alex's Losses
11-20-2007, 09:23 AM
At least I thought Vermiel was honest and his players respected him....I think Edwards is a carny clown.

The team wouldn't play hard if they didn't respect Edwards. I haven't seen this team quit in one game since Herm was hired.

HemiEd
11-20-2007, 09:24 AM
I understand completely.

You're in love with Dick Vermeil and think he can do no wrong.

You hate Herm Edwards and think he's crap.

The truth is Vermeil did nothing in five years here. Herm Edwards so far has done nothing, but should be afforded the same chance Vermeil got.

Oh no you don't. I have said on here numerous times, Dick Vermeil was loyal to a fault. He carried it too far, no question.

Consequently, my comment about them being polar opposites, they are both extremes.
Herm Edwards is loyal do nobody, he would even throw Dick Curl under the bus if it helped him divert the pressure.

But to say Dick Vermeil did nothing, is bull shit. He entertained the hell out of me on Sunday's. Herm Edwards makes it easier to mow the lawn on Sundays.

HemiEd
11-20-2007, 09:32 AM
The team wouldn't play hard if they didn't respect Edwards. I haven't seen this team quit in one game since Herm was hired.

You think this team is giving it their all? WTF? You don't see the Oline working harder with Croyle back there than they were for Huard?
Even your boy Lj was laying down, giving half effort, then throwing tantrums. The Offensive team does not respect Herm ****ing Edwards and he does not respect them, that is pretty ****ing obvious.

Coogs
11-20-2007, 09:33 AM
Wow. That article is a little disheartening. I understand giving a team respect, and recognizing the strengths and weaknesses of both teams, however, to say things like, "We survived the 1st half" simply tells me that he never believed he had a shot at winning this game. The Chiefs "survived" the 1st half?? Yippie!! Moral victories all around!!

This is the NFL. This isn't Kentucky Institute of Technology going up against USC. You simply cannot go into a game with a defeatists attitude by saying, "We're gonna play four-corners and hope we get out of the 1st half unscathed."

That mentality is nonsense.

I disagree. We had opportunities to take the lead in the 1st half. Rayner missed twice. Venatari missed a couple as well, but we had our chances to grab the lead in the first half. How many times have you seen Manning take a team down the field and put points on the board with a minute or so to go on the clock? Quite a few. If we open up the offense at the 1:30 mark of the first half and do nothing from the 23 yard line... we are probably behind at thalf. If the ball had been out around the 35 or 40, I think we may have tried to put points on the board to end the half, but being back on the 23 was risky IMO.

bobbything
11-20-2007, 09:34 AM
I wonder how hard the offense plays for Herm considering the comments from Gonzalez after the game. I'm not necessarily saying that they lay down, but it makes me wonder...

Count Alex's Losses
11-20-2007, 09:34 AM
You think this team is giving it their all? WTF? You don't see the Oline working harder with Croyle back there than they were for Huard?
Even your boy Lj was laying down, giving half effort, then throwing tantrums.

Painting silly pictures again?

Samson
11-20-2007, 09:40 AM
Herm-Ball is HORRIBLE for the fans, but I can't help but think what if...

What if we recover the Tamba strip late in the 4th Qt.? And what if we were able to go down and do exactly what Indy did to us...kick a filed goal with no time left?

Would that make Herm a genius for putting his team in a position to win against the champs, and then seizing the opportunity?

That being said, Herm-ball is HORRIBLE for the fans, but does it give the talent he has the best opportunity to win the game?

What are the posts around here like if we throw the ball around and lose 38-17?...

Noob

HemiEd
11-20-2007, 09:40 AM
Painting silly pictures again?

Some of us don't have blinders on. Even you are starting to weaken on the idiot.

I wonder how hard the offense plays for Herm considering the comments from Gonzalez after the game. I'm not necessarily saying that they lay down, but it makes me wonder...

I don't think they are "overachieving" from the wonderful motivational tactics of Herm.

HemiEd
11-20-2007, 09:45 AM
``At the end of the day, we're in a transition phase with this football team,'' coach Herm Edwards said Monday. ``This is not the team that you're going to see next year. There are going to be some changes on this team. There's no doubt about it. We're going through a transition phase. That's a process.''


This should really motivate them! I wonder if Tony G. is next on the "get rid of" list? Trent was gone shortly after he spoke up about the offense.

bobbything
11-20-2007, 09:45 AM
What are the posts around here like if we throw the ball around and lose 38-17?...

Noob
I don't have a problem with the game plan up until our final possession. Play it close until crunch time. Well, the 4th quarter is about as "crunch" as you're gonna get. Yet, we still sat around and waited for Indy to give us something that they decided to go out and take for themselves.

Count Alex's Losses
11-20-2007, 09:45 AM
Some of us don't have blinders on.

I think you're so desperate to hate Herm, you'll say anything.

Count Alex's Losses
11-20-2007, 09:47 AM
This should really motivate them! I wonder if Tony G. is next on the "get rid of" list? Trent was gone shortly after he spoke up about the offense.

You're painting again.

Tony G just signed a huge contract. He's un-tradeable.

Coogs
11-20-2007, 09:49 AM
What if we recover the Tamba strip late in the 4th Qt.? And what if we were able to go down and do exactly what Indy did to us...kick a filed goal with no time left?

Would that make Herm a genius for putting his team in a position to win against the champs, and then seizing the opportunity?

What are the posts around here like if we throw the ball around and lose 38-17?...

Noob


:clap: Great 1st post!

HemiEd
11-20-2007, 09:54 AM
I think you're so desperate to hate Herm, you'll say anything.
ROFL ROFL That is so funny coming from you, it really is.

I am the guy that gave him the chance when he was hired. I did't have a "Germ Warefare" campaign, in fact I had all you ****ers on avatar block.
I gave him a chance to prove himself, he has. He is dumber than shit.

The team was less entertaining last year than the year before. It is less entertaining this year than last year. Oh boy, I can't wait until next year!

The D has really improved, they are awesome! They have gone from 16th to 8th! Woo hoo, that has nothing to do with Jared Allen and everything to do with Herm ****ing Edwards!

The O has gone from 1st to 30th, but that is the players fault, it has nothing to do with Herm ****ing Ewards!

yes, I hate what he has done.

Chiefnj2
11-20-2007, 09:56 AM
Herm is saying the offense is so bad it is better to punt the ball and hope the D can do something and/or hope the other team screws up.

That game plan can work against the Raiders, but not a team like the Colts.

the Talking Can
11-20-2007, 09:57 AM
I have not read this entire thread, but I intend to do so throughought the day. I really do not have a problem with what we did for 3+ quarters last Sunday. Even the before half thing where we ran out the clock with 3 timeouts left. I thought it was a brilliant gameplan in fact. Tied at 10 with under 10 minutes to go in the game with the defending Super Bowl Champs on their home turf... and comming off of two straigth losses. I thought it was pretty much perfect.

At that point though, I think they should haved handed the keys over to Croyle. Something like this... "OK Brodie... we got you to this point in the game tied. Do your thing. We are only going to have probably 2 more posessions at best from this point on in. Go do your thing. Don't worry about making any mistakes, just do your thing. You have Gonzo, Bowe, Kennison, and Holmes in your passing scheme... use them. Take us down the field.... beat the Colts... and the city... Kansas City... will be yours."

Instead we handed off on first down both times. Had 2nd and long both times. Brodie got us out of the first one, but couldn't overcome the second one. And Manning did the rest.

I agree with this. Well said.

Here it is in a nutshell:

I don't have a problem with Herm playing conservatively for 3 quarters.

I have a problem with Herm playing conservatively for 4 quarters.

Count Alex's Losses
11-20-2007, 09:58 AM
I gave him a chance to prove himself, he has.

26 games. Some chance. Herm is 13-13.

Do you know what Vermeil's record as a Chief was after 26 games?

11-15.

bobbything
11-20-2007, 10:05 AM
At the end of the day, we're in a transition phase with this football team,'' coach Herm Edwards said Monday. This is not the team that you're going to see next year. There are going to be some changes on this team. There's no doubt about it. We're going through a transition phase. That's a process.
I wonder how well he knows how to build a competent offense. I'm not big Vermeil guy, but it took him all of one full season to build a very good offense, and two full seasons to build a dominating offense.

Herm, conversely, has taken this knowledge and done the same with the defense. Well, not exactly the same. This defense isn't exactly dominating, but it is good.

As a fan, I just get sick of seeing the scale tipped so heavily from one side to the other.

siberian khatru
11-20-2007, 10:05 AM
What if we recover the Tamba strip late in the 4th Qt.? And what if we were able to go down and do exactly what Indy did to us...kick a filed goal with no time left?

Would that make Herm a genius for putting his team in a position to win against the champs, and then seizing the opportunity?

That being said, Herm-ball is HORRIBLE for the fans, but does it give the talent he has the best opportunity to win the game?

What are the posts around here like if we throw the ball around and lose 38-17?...

Noob

But we didn't recover it.

But if we want to play hypotheticals, let's play. OK, we recover it -- and run twice, gain 5 yards, then throw a 4-yard pass on 3rd down and then punt. Or get sacked in an obvious passing down. Or throw incomplete. Or run for it on 3rd down and fall short. In other words, what if we recovered -- and STILL didn't convert?

Here's another hypothetical. What if we threw deep once and got a pass interference penalty that set us up for a short FG or even a TD?

What if? What if? What if? With all due respect, that's all your post is. And although it begins on a defensive play that didn't happen, it still assumes the offense must convert it -- which is no different than all the other what-ifs the critics are throwing out.

We whittled the game down to one possession in the 4th quarter. So what did we do?

1) Run for loss; short pass; short pass; punt
2) Run for no gain; short pass; PASS FOR FIRST DOWN (!); rush for loss; rush for loss; draw; punt.

We had the ball -- just like in your scenario. What did we do with it? We played scared.

Here's what's frustrating -- Herm's game plan WORKED, right up to the point where he FAILED TO CAPITALIZE ON IT. He undermined his entire philosophy.

It's like finally scoring a date with the hot chick, and then being too afraid to give her a goodnight kiss.

FAX
11-20-2007, 10:06 AM
Herm-Ball is HORRIBLE for the fans, but I can't help but think what if...

What if we recover the Tamba strip late in the 4th Qt.? And what if we were able to go down and do exactly what Indy did to us...kick a filed goal with no time left?

Would that make Herm a genius for putting his team in a position to win against the champs, and then seizing the opportunity?

That being said, Herm-ball is HORRIBLE for the fans, but does it give the talent he has the best opportunity to win the game?

What are the posts around here like if we throw the ball around and lose 38-17?...

Noob

For my part, it's not about throwing the ball 70 times, Mr. Samson. I have no desire to watch the Chiefs play stupid ball. My angst is fostered by a few items and that's not one of them.

1) Not playing for the first down. It should be clear by now that, 8 times out of 10, we are looking for the first with a prayer and a run or pass short of the sticks.

2) Not playing the entire field. This has been talked about so much on this board, I won't repeat it. Suffice it to say that we've been challenging defenses 5 to 10 yards beyond the line of scrimmage.

3) Dumb ass excuses. I'm sick and tired of Herm's spin. "Our playcalling couldn't get in rhythm because we had too many three and outs." Apparently, he has cause and effect backwards in his mind.

4) Intimating that the "common eyed" fans don't know their ass hole from the face on Mars when it comes to football.

Most of the Planeteers are very astute when it comes to football. In fact, many could coach. As for myself, I'm just tired of the lies and spin. If Herm would come out and say, "I've struggled getting this team prepared offensively, but we're working on it.", my respect for him would increase 1000 fold.

FAX

Wile_E_Coyote
11-20-2007, 10:07 AM
Why does this article make me think of the Brits. Marching down the road in powdered wigs and snappy uniforms. Marching in step, a drummer sounding out the beat.

Mean while in the trees & bushes, the colonist, rifles in hand. Are picking them off like ducks. Ducks that have their feet frozen in a lake

dirk digler
11-20-2007, 10:07 AM
26 games. Some chance. Herm is 13-13.

Do you know what Vermeil's record as a Chief was after 26 games?

11-15.

When Herm head coaches in 2 SB's and actually wins one then he deserves that chance otherwise he doesn't.

Gun got fired after 2 seasons and he was .500 Herm won't be at .500 come the end of this year.

HemiEd
11-20-2007, 10:14 AM
26 games. Some chance. Herm is 13-13.

Do you know what Vermeil's record as a Chief was after 26 games?

11-15.

Vermeil inherited a 7-9 team, in cap hell, that was in total dissarray. Edwards inherited a 10-6 team, full of high caliber players.

Vermeil took the offense from 9th to 1st in two years, Edwards has taken it from 1st to 30th.

chasedude
11-20-2007, 10:15 AM
Go to Hell Herm... this team is going no where as long as you're the HC

Radar Chief
11-20-2007, 10:16 AM
Apparently, he has cause and effect backwards in his mind.

Exactly. Do we really have ridiculously conservative play calling because we have more 3 & outs than the rest of the league or do we have more 3 & outs than the rest of the league because of the ridiculously conservative play calling?
IMO, it’s the later.

DaKCMan AP
11-20-2007, 10:17 AM
I wonder how well he knows how to build a competent offense. I'm not big Vermeil guy, but it took him all of one full season to build a very good offense, and two full seasons to build a dominating offense.

Herm, conversely, has taken this knowledge and done the same with the defense. Well, not exactly the same. This defense isn't exactly dominating, but it is good.

As a fan, I just get sick of seeing the scale tipped so heavily from one side to the other.

I understand, but DV was given 4 additional years to try and fix the D. Doesn't Herm deserve more than 1 to try and fix the O?

Count Alex's Losses
11-20-2007, 10:17 AM
Vermeil inherited a 7-9 team, in cap hell, that was in total dissarray. Edwards inherited a 10-6 team, full of high caliber players.


We've been over this before. The notion that Herm inherited some talent-laden team is ridiculous. The offense was in sharp decline as soon as he got here. The defense was in shambles.

Bottom line...Herm deserves more of a chance.

DaKCMan AP
11-20-2007, 10:18 AM
Edwards inherited a 10-6 team, full of high caliber players.

ROFL

Willie Roaf? Gone.
Will Shields? Gone.
Trent Green? Gone.
Eddie Kennison? Almost 35 years old and breaking down.
Priest Holmes? 2 years removed from football and 34 years old.


Beyond LJ, Waters and TonyG, what high caliber players did Herm inherit on O?

the Talking Can
11-20-2007, 10:19 AM
Exactly. Do we really have ridiculously conservative play calling because we have more 3 & outs than the rest of the league or do we have more 3 & outs than the rest of the league because of the ridiculously conservative play calling?
IMO, it’s the later.

it's an enigma wrapped in a cheesburger....

DaKCMan AP
11-20-2007, 10:19 AM
it's an enigma wrapped in a cheesburger....

mmmm....cheeseburger :drool:

siberian khatru
11-20-2007, 10:20 AM
mmmmm ... enigma :drool:

Baby Lee
11-20-2007, 10:22 AM
mmmmm ... enigma :drool:
Before you swoon, that's not the word for shooting liquids up your butt.

Bowser
11-20-2007, 10:23 AM
Honestly, that's probably as close to hearing a coach say "my team sucks" without them actually saying it.

KC Dan
11-20-2007, 10:24 AM
You're painting again.

Tony G just signed a huge contract. He's un-tradeable.
I would bet you every penny I have that if Herm went to Tony and said "we want to trade you to NE or Ind or GB and have you work a new deal with that team" that TG would jump all over it. He is flustrated as all of us are at the inept play calling and shackles put on whomever is at QB. That 4th quarter showed me all I need to see. Herm does not play to win the game, he plays to HOPE that he wins the game. And TG and the guys are seeing right through his bu*****it mantra now. Don't be surprised if the tailspin get worse.

siberian khatru
11-20-2007, 10:29 AM
Before you swoon, that's not the word for shooting liquids up your butt.

Of course, silly, that's an anemone.

the Talking Can
11-20-2007, 10:30 AM
It feels like we're all arguing right past each other...

I fault Herm for being a coward in the 4th quarter. And this is not the first time he has done it.

I fault Herm for deciding - before a game is played - that we can't win. That is chickenshit.

That doesn't negate the good things he has done with our defense and most of our personnel. But it is worrisome because it points to a critical flaw...a Marty type flaw, something Chiefs fans are innately aware of and afraid of.

And Herm does himself no favors when he speaks. He does throw people under the bus. He just threw Tony, Bowe, and Croyle under the bus by saying he didn't trust them enough to let them try and win. They are prideful players and that has to sting.

Honestly, if it weren't for Croyle's presence on this team I think I would have reached a breaking point with this franchise. My ability to care is almost gone.

I can only hope that Herm doesn't ruin Croyle by turning him into a coward. But it could easily happen.

HemiEd
11-20-2007, 10:31 AM
ROFL

Willie Roaf? Gone.
Will Shields? Gone.
Trent Green? Gone.
Eddie Kennison? Almost 35 years old and breaking down.
Priest Holmes? 2 years removed from football and 34 years old.


Beyond LJ, Waters and TonyG, what high caliber players did Herm inherit on O?

You need to re-read my post. I did not say high caliber exclusive to the offense. The whole team was full of "profile" guys, that was my point.
It was full of guys like Rison and Dan Williams when Dick took over. Got it?

But since you bring it up, Willie Roaf decided to retire after Herm took over. It was a very sudden change of heart, I wonder why?

Trent Green spoke up about the offensive play calling, gone.

Baby Lee
11-20-2007, 10:32 AM
Evidently this was the most important game the Chiefs have EVER played.

DaKCMan AP
11-20-2007, 10:32 AM
And Herm does himself no favors when he speaks. He does throw people under the bus. He just threw Tony, Bowe, and Croyle under the bus by saying he didn't trust them enough to let them try and win. They are prideful players and that has to sting.


He doesn't mention any players by name in his comments you're referring to. How do you know he's not talking about Weigman, Welbourne, Terry and Turley? Their performance directly affects what Brodie, Bowe, TG and any other skill position player can do.

DaKCMan AP
11-20-2007, 10:32 AM
Evidently this was the most important game the Chiefs have EVER played.

EVAR!

DaKCMan AP
11-20-2007, 10:33 AM
But since you bring it up, Willie Roaf decided to retire after Herm took over. It was a very sudden change of heart, I wonder why?

You heard it folks! Herm Edwards caused Willie Roaf to retire!

Baby Lee
11-20-2007, 10:34 AM
But since you bring it up, Willie Roaf decided to retire after Herm took over. It was a very sudden change of heart, I wonder why?
Because his wife closed her poonanny and threatened to keep it closed unless he stayed home.
Roaf was high on the season and high on the new regime in the OTAs, then he tweaked his wounds again at the end of OTAs and his wife said enuff'zenuff.

This is the shit that burns me, there is no evidence that Roaf had any problem with Herm, but that doesn't stop the innuendo.

the Talking Can
11-20-2007, 10:36 AM
He doesn't mention any players by name in his comments you're referring to. How do you know he's not talking about Weigman, Welbourne, Terry and Turley? Their performance directly affects what Brodie, Bowe, TG and any other skill position player can do.

doesn't matter, he's not letting a great player like Tony have a chance to make a great play...he's not repaying Bowes's awesome self-confidence by having the confidence to throw him the damn ball....

if you won't even try you are disrespecting the work, effort, and talent of some fine players....they know that...that's why Tony is pissed, and he has the seniority, unlike Brodie and Bowe, to say something...

Chiefnj2
11-20-2007, 10:36 AM
If you read between the line Herm is saying:

" I watch these guys in practice all week. I'm shocked that in a game situation they can jog from the bench and onto the field without hurting themselves or getting lost along the way. Last week we had an 11 on 2 drill. Only 2 defensive players - Bell and Kershaw and the offense still lost 3 yards on first down before turning it over on the next play. I can't risk that in a game."

DaKCMan AP
11-20-2007, 10:37 AM
You need to re-read my post. I did not say high caliber exclusive to the offense.

Lets go over the D. The players left on D when Herm took over:

Jared Allen (2yr experience)
Derrick Johnson (1yr experience)
John Browning
Lionel Dalton
Carlos Hall
Eric Hicks
Junior Siavii
Ryan Sims
Shawn Barber
Kendrell Bell
Key Fox
Kawika Mitchell
Will Bartee
Sammy Knight
Dexter McCleon
Benny Sapp
Pat Surtain
Eric Warfield
Dewayne Washington
Greg Wesley
Jerome Woods


Yep, that's pretty talent-heavy.

FAX
11-20-2007, 10:38 AM
Let's burn the stadium and roast marshmellows.

FAX

DaKCMan AP
11-20-2007, 10:39 AM
Let's burn the stadium and roast marshmellows.

FAX

Better wait until after the MU-KU game.

Baby Lee
11-20-2007, 10:40 AM
Yep, that's pretty talent-heavy.
Hey! Eric Hicks can handle 0-4 better than anyone!!

siberian khatru
11-20-2007, 10:41 AM
That doesn't negate the good things he has done with our defense and most of our personnel. But it is worrisome because it points to a critical flaw...a Marty type flaw, something Chiefs fans are innately aware of and afraid of.

...

Honestly, if it weren't for Croyle's presence on this team I think I would have reached a breaking point with this franchise. My ability to care is almost gone.



I think Herm is crippled by the Carl legacy. If this were 1989, we'd probably all be thrilled with what's going on. But since we've lived through all the heartbreak and failures of the past 18 years, particularly the Marty style of football from the 90s, few of us are willing to ignore the past and cut Herm some slack.

That may be unfair -- Herm may actually have the right formula, this time. But for too many of us, this path looks familiar. We were willing to accept conservative football in the 90s because 1) it was superior to the shit we played from around 1975-88, and 2) we weren't yet exposed to its critical limitations.

It's why Zouk's stuff just doesn't reach me. He clearly believes it with all his heart. He's an apostle. But I'm just not digging the gospel anymore. It's like a Christian vs. Jew thing with this team now. You either have the faith or you don't.

KCFalcon59
11-20-2007, 10:41 AM
But we didn't recover it.

But if we want to play hypotheticals, let's play. OK, we recover it -- and run twice, gain 5 yards, then throw a 4-yard pass on 3rd down and then punt. Or get sacked in an obvious passing down. Or throw incomplete. Or run for it on 3rd down and fall short. In other words, what if we recovered -- and STILL didn't convert?

Here's another hypothetical. What if we threw deep once and got a pass interference penalty that set us up for a short FG or even a TD?

What if? What if? What if? With all due respect, that's all your post is. And although it begins on a defensive play that didn't happen, it still assumes the offense must convert it -- which is no different than all the other what-ifs the critics are throwing out.

We whittled the game down to one possession in the 4th quarter. So what did we do?

1) Run for loss; short pass; short pass; punt
2) Run for no gain; short pass; PASS FOR FIRST DOWN (!); rush for loss; rush for loss; draw; punt.

We had the ball -- just like in your scenario. What did we do with it? We played scared.

Here's what's frustrating -- Herm's game plan WORKED, right up to the point where he FAILED TO CAPITALIZE ON IT. He undermined his entire philosophy.

It's like finally scoring a date with the hot chick, and then being too afraid to give her a goodnight kiss.

QFT

Chiefnj2
11-20-2007, 10:41 AM
Lets go over the D. The players left on D when Herm took over:

Jared Allen (2yr experience)
Derrick Johnson (1yr experience)
John Browning
Lionel Dalton
Carlos Hall
Eric Hicks
Junior Siavii
Ryan Sims
Shawn Barber
Kendrell Bell
Key Fox
Kawika Mitchell
Will Bartee
Sammy Knight
Dexter McCleon
Benny Sapp
Pat Surtain
Eric Warfield
Dewayne Washington
Greg Wesley
Jerome Woods


Yep, that's pretty talent-heavy.

Those are the players Herm's current DC requested. The playmakers on the current squad are guys from that list.

Count Alex's Losses
11-20-2007, 10:43 AM
Those are the players Herm's current DC requested.

Most of them are gone.

The playmakers on the current squad are guys from that list.

Three of them.

The rest of our defense:

Hali
Boone
Edwards
Edwards
Nap
Pollard
Page
Law

ALL HERM.

Baby Lee
11-20-2007, 10:43 AM
I think Herm is crippled by the Carl legacy. If this were 1989, we'd probably all be thrilled with what's going on. But since we've lived through all the heartbreak and failures of the past 18 years, particularly the Marty style of football from the 90s, few of us are willing to ignore the past and cut Herm some slack.

That may be unfair -- Herm may actually have the right formula, this time. But for too many of us, this path looks familiar. We were willing to accept conservative football in the 90s because 1) it was superior to the shit we played from around 1975-88, and 2) we weren't yet exposed to its critical limitations.

It's why Zouk's stuff just doesn't reach me. He clearly believes it with all his heart. He's an apostle. But I'm just not digging the gospel anymore. It's like a Christian vs. Jew thing with this team now. You either have the faith or you don't.
If we have a Marty team, with Brodie and Bowe instead of Bono or Grbac and Rison or Lachappelle. I'LL TAKE IT!!!!

DaKCMan AP
11-20-2007, 10:46 AM
If we have a Marty team, with Brodie and Bowe instead of Bono or Grbac and Rison or Lachappelle. I'LL TAKE IT!!!!

Don't forget LJ instead of 80yr old Marcus/HarveyW/Greg Hill

FAX
11-20-2007, 10:48 AM
That's a good way to look at it, Mr. Baby Lee. I'm going to try and be positive for the next couple of weeks.

Let's burn the stadium and make smores.

FAX

the Talking Can
11-20-2007, 10:48 AM
I think Herm is crippled by the Carl legacy. If this were 1989, we'd probably all be thrilled with what's going on. But since we've lived through all the heartbreak and failures of the past 18 years, particularly the Marty style of football from the 90s, few of us are willing to ignore the past and cut Herm some slack.

That may be unfair -- Herm may actually have the right formula, this time. But for too many of us, this path looks familiar. We were willing to accept conservative football in the 90s because 1) it was superior to the shit we played from around 1975-88, and 2) we weren't yet exposed to its critical limitations.

It's why Zouk's stuff just doesn't reach me. He clearly believes it with all his heart. He's an apostle. But I'm just not digging the gospel anymore. It's like a Christian vs. Jew thing with this team now. You either have the faith or you don't.

you are correct, sir....that's where I am coming from...

I listen to Zouk the way an Old Man listens to some kid talk about how Creed is the best band ever.

Zouk
11-20-2007, 10:49 AM
It's why Zouk's stuff just doesn't reach me. He clearly believes it with all his heart. He's an apostle. But I'm just not digging the gospel anymore. It's like a Christian vs. Jew thing with this team now. You either have the faith or you don't.

I understand it's hard to see it now. But Croyle and Bowe are rookies or essentially rookies this year and the O-line is stomach turning. Next year when we put more offensive talent out there with Croyle and Bowe, combined with a D that can hold the Colts to 13 in the RCA dome, it'll no longer be a question of faith. We will all see it with our own eyes.

the Talking Can
11-20-2007, 10:49 AM
plus, it is undeniable that the best teams now have dynamic offenses....butt running isn't going to cut it any more...

siberian khatru
11-20-2007, 10:50 AM
I understand it's hard to see it now. But Croyle and Bowe are rookies or essentially rookies this year and the O-line is stomach turning. Next year when we put more offensive talent out there with Croyle and Bowe, combined with a D that can hold the Colts to 13 in the RCA dome, it'll no longer be a question of faith. We will all see it with our own eyes.

You just rang my doorbell, but I'm pretending I'm not home.


;) :p

the Talking Can
11-20-2007, 10:51 AM
If we have a Marty team, with Brodie and Bowe instead of Bono or Grbac and Rison or Lachappelle. I'LL TAKE IT!!!!

no thanks, the problem wasn't the players...it was Marty...Marty is the reason we choked...

Mecca
11-20-2007, 10:55 AM
Other than that defense still needs several more players before it is top of the league caliber.

the Talking Can
11-20-2007, 10:56 AM
this was good....now we need a group hug

HemiEd
11-20-2007, 11:00 AM
You heard it folks! Herm Edwards caused Willie Roaf to retire!

I have said it before, I honestly believe he did. It was shortly after the "Circus Offense" comments. Willie didn't need it, **** that.

HemiEd
11-20-2007, 11:01 AM
Because his wife closed her poonanny and threatened to keep it closed unless he stayed home.
Roaf was high on the season and high on the new regime in the OTAs, then he tweaked his wounds again at the end of OTAs and his wife said enuff'zenuff.

This is the shit that burns me, there is no evidence that Roaf had any problem with Herm, but that doesn't stop the innuendo.

That is your opinion, I have mine. The timing says it all.

Count Alex's Losses
11-20-2007, 11:02 AM
That is your opinion, I have mine. The timing says it all.

What timing?

Roaf retired well after Herm was hired. MONTHS AFTER.

Wile_E_Coyote
11-20-2007, 11:04 AM
I do recall Roaf saying, DV shortened his career, with his long practices

HemiEd
11-20-2007, 11:04 AM
Lets go over the D. The players left on D when Herm took over:

Jared Allen (2yr experience)
Derrick Johnson (1yr experience)
John Browning
Lionel Dalton
Carlos Hall
Eric Hicks
Junior Siavii
Ryan Sims
Shawn Barber
Kendrell Bell
Key Fox
Kawika Mitchell
Will Bartee
Sammy Knight
Dexter McCleon
Benny Sapp
Pat Surtain
Eric Warfield
Dewayne Washington
Greg Wesley
Jerome Woods


Yep, that's pretty talent-heavy.
Hmm, you still don't get it. Show me where I used the word talent. I said CALIBER, as in high character, the DV ****ing PROFILE. Or are you refusing to understand the point out of stubborness?

Baby Lee
11-20-2007, 11:06 AM
That is your opinion, I have mine. The timing says it all.
As they say, everyone's entitled to their opinions, but they're not entitled to their own facts. And your opinion is entirely fact free. In case you missed it, correlation is NOT causation.

FAX
11-20-2007, 11:06 AM
Speaking of morons, does Herm have a press conference today?

FAX

Count Alex's Losses
11-20-2007, 11:07 AM
Hmm, you still don't get it. Show me where I used the word talent. I said CALIBER, as in high character, the DV ****ing PROFILE. Or are you refusing to understand the point out of stubborness?

What difference does "profile" bullshit make?

We still have high-character players all over this team.

At least some of them are talented now...

Count Alex's Losses
11-20-2007, 11:07 AM
Speaking of morons, does Herm have a press conference today?

FAX

Yes, Mr. Fax. I'm predicting people will rip him for what he says.

Baby Lee
11-20-2007, 11:08 AM
Hmm, you still don't get it. Show me where I used the word talent. I said CALIBER, as in high character, the DV ****ing PROFILE. Or are you refusing to understand the point out of stubborness?
I'm sorry, I thought you wanted to win games, not Dale Carnegie awards.

bobbything
11-20-2007, 11:09 AM
Yes, Mr. Fax. I'm predicting people will rip him for what he says.
Most likely because he'll talk for 45 minutes and not really say a whole lot. The coach speak is easier to take when you're winning.

FAX
11-20-2007, 11:11 AM
Yes, Mr. Fax. I'm predicting people will rip him for what he says.

ROFL

Thanks.

FAX

FAX
11-20-2007, 11:14 AM
Most likely because he'll talk for 45 minutes and not really say a whole lot. The coach speak is easier to take when you're winning.

I don't know. Maybe he'll say, "Sunday's game was on me. We wanted to protect Brodie, but we might have gone too far. I should have trusted my players more. Our guys played their hearts out against the SB champs and I should have given them a better chance to win. I won't make that mistake again."

FAX

HemiEd
11-20-2007, 11:14 AM
I'm sorry, I thought you wanted to win games, not Dale Carnegie awards.
ROFL That is just it, I am not happy with losing, apparantly you are.

bobbything
11-20-2007, 11:15 AM
I don't know. Maybe he'll say, "Sunday's game was on me. We wanted to protect Brodie, but we might have gone too far. I should have trusted my players more. Our guys played their hearts out against the SB champs and I should have given them a better chance to win. I won't make that mistake again."

FAX
I've got some magic beans for sale Mr. Fax. Interested?

Baby Lee
11-20-2007, 11:16 AM
ROFL That is just it, I am not happy with losing, apparantly you are.
GFY

Mr. Plow
11-20-2007, 11:17 AM
I'd like to formerly apologize to any and all Jets fans that I did not believe when they said we would regret hiring Herm. I was on that boat, but I really thought he would at least get 3-4 years in before I really got tired of him.

I'd also like to take this time say that the Jets organization took us to the cleaners by getting ANY draft pick out of us for Herm Edwards.

HemiEd
11-20-2007, 11:24 AM
GFY


Brilliant.

the Talking Can
11-20-2007, 11:26 AM
this was good....now we need a group hug

dammit people, start hugging....

Baby Lee
11-20-2007, 11:27 AM
Appropriate.
FYP

Baby Lee
11-20-2007, 11:29 AM
dammit people, start hugging....
Apparantly [sp], some people are a little too focused on ascribing unjustified characteristics to others.
Ironic, coming from a guy who thinks you win NFL games with shitty players with rock solid character.

DaKCMan AP
11-20-2007, 11:32 AM
ROFL That is just it, I am not happy with losing, apparantly you are.

Apparently you're happy with losing as long as the players are high caliber and the coach is DV.

Count Alex's Losses
11-20-2007, 11:33 AM
Apparently you're happy with losing as long as the players are high caliber and the coach is DV.

I think he should start watching arena football. He just wants to be entertained. If the Chiefs were scoring 30 every week and losing, he'd be fine with it.

FAX
11-20-2007, 11:34 AM
Let's burn the stadium, strip naked, paint our faces with blood, and play bongo drums!!

FAX

Baby Lee
11-20-2007, 11:36 AM
Let's burn the stadium, strip naked, paint our faces with blood, and play bongo drums!!

FAX
Aha!! All this faux outrage was just a long con for some communal meatpeeking.

HemiEd
11-20-2007, 11:41 AM
Apparently you're happy with losing as long as the players are high caliber and the coach is DV.

No, not at all. In fact, I have no tolerance for losing, even while rebuilding. However, my point was an effort to refute GoChiefs point about Herm doing a better job than DV. In fact, Dick had a real mess he inherited. Herm started with a better team, do you agree with that? If not, you and I can not communicate.

Count Alex's Losses
11-20-2007, 11:43 AM
However, my point was an effort to refute GoChiefs point about Herm doing a better job than DV.

I already stated they are about the same at this point. Neither accomplished or has accomplished jack. Herm does draft better, though.

Tribal Warfare
11-20-2007, 11:45 AM
Let's burn the stadium, strip naked, paint our faces with blood, and play bongo drums!!

FAX


You've been watching too many Mel Gibson directed movies. :D

HemiEd
11-20-2007, 11:50 AM
I think he should start watching arena football. He just wants to be entertained. If the Chiefs were scoring 30 every week and losing, he'd be fine with it.

Now you are getting out of line Mr. Germ Warefare. YOU do not have any right to qualify my Chiefs experience. The fact that after 38 years of frustration, I have been able make it entertainment, is for survival. You are the ****er that is defending losing, you. I ****ing hate it, but I hate losing ugly even worse. I hate the direction this team is headed in, I have seen it before.

HemiEd
11-20-2007, 11:53 AM
Herm does draft better, though.

We shall see, none have been in the league long enough to be qualified. We have had this discussion before as well. I do however, think Bowe could end up being one of the best Chiefs ever.
The fact that we had to give up a 2nd for DV and a 4th for Herm ****ing Edwards should tell you something. :)

Baby Lee
11-20-2007, 11:55 AM
Now you are getting out of line Mr. Germ Warefare. YOU do not have any right to qualify my Chiefs experience.
Down* with Goose/Gander inequity!!!!



* - No pun intended

StcChief
11-20-2007, 11:56 AM
We shall see, none have been in the league long enough to be qualified. We have had this discussion before as well. I do however, think Bowe could end up being one of the best Chiefs ever.
The fact that we had to give up a 2nd for DV and a 4th for Herm ****ing Edwards should tell you something. :)
agreed Jury still out.... but looks better (at this point) than last 8 years with DV/Gun...

FAX
11-20-2007, 12:07 PM
Herm's saying the players only look at their position and don't understand the big picture of the game.

This team's strength is defense. We're not going to change with Brodie in there.

Flustrated count: 1

FAX

FAX
11-20-2007, 12:09 PM
I think he just said, "... it hasn't come to fluition."

FAX

Stinger
11-20-2007, 12:14 PM
Herm started with a better team, do you agree with that?

You mean the one where Herm lost a starting QB and lost an offensive line that was the staple of the #1 offense? So no line and no qb who ran the offense to perfection and a 28th rank defense. I think your history might be a little cloudy.

Stinger
11-20-2007, 12:20 PM
The fact that we had to give up a 2nd for DV and a 4th for Herm ****ing Edwards should tell you something. :)

You mean you are compairing a 2nd round pick couch that in 5 years got his team to 1 playoof game in which they lost to a 4th round coach that in his first year got to a playoff game and lost. Seem to me we got more of a deal on Herm than Dick.

We shall see, none have been in the league long enough to be qualified. We have had this discussion before as well. I do however, think Bowe could end up being one of the best Chiefs ever.

I would end this part of your discussion right now. This is a no win situation if you want to compair draft picks.

Micjones
11-20-2007, 12:23 PM
Herman Edwards is intent on waiting for the opposition to make a mistake. Screw controlling your own destiny.

Sitting on the ball going into the Half, with 1:15 and three timeouts, was unforgivable.

DaKCMan AP
11-20-2007, 12:26 PM
Herman Edwards is intent on waiting for the opposition to make a mistake. Screw controlling your own destiny.

Sitting on the ball going into the Half, with 1:15 and three timeouts, was unforgivable.

Not defending the move, but would driving down to watch Rayner miss another 45yd kick matter?

Donger
11-20-2007, 12:27 PM
I think he just said, "... it hasn't come to fluition."

FAX

ROFL

RedThat
11-20-2007, 12:37 PM
I've come to the conclusion and thought, why waste breath on Herm?

This is all Carl's fault. He hired him. He thought he did a great job in NY managing both sides of the ball. But yet failed to look past his offenses in NY.

And it is Clark Hunts fault for giving a 4 year contract extension to an underachieving General manager.

It all works in sequence folks. This is what they get and deserve!

Stupid Organization

Hydrae
11-20-2007, 12:37 PM
Not defending the move, but would driving down to watch Rayner miss another 45yd kick matter?


Total aside from the rest of the discussion but was Rayner still in a Chiefs uniform? If so, then you have to trust him to do his job regardless of previous performance.

Donger
11-20-2007, 12:39 PM
Okay, after listening to this f*ckwit, I've reached the conclusion that his only goal is to not get Brodie killed.

Coogs
11-20-2007, 12:39 PM
Sitting on the ball going into the Half, with 1:15 and three timeouts, was unforgivable.

I agreed with not going for it right there. If we were out around the 40, then by all means go for some points. But not back at our 20. We could have been on the lead anyway if Rayner makes a kick or two. A couple of quick incompletes, and we give the ball back to Manning near midfield with a minute to go in the half, and we are probably trailing at half. If we are out near the 40, then if things don't go well, Indy is probably getting the ball back near thier 20 with a minute to go, and we can probably hold them to the tie at half. This decision by Herm is not hard for me to understand.

Not unleashing the offense at the 8:30 mark in the 4th quarter in a 10-10 tie is another matter though.

Donger
11-20-2007, 12:40 PM
He keeps saying that he KNOWS that Brodie can't do what people are asking of him. How does he KNOW that's true?

Count Alex's Losses
11-20-2007, 12:41 PM
He keeps saying that he KNOWS that Brodie can't do what people are asking of him. How does he KNOW that's true?

Brodie can't throw down the field? Is that what he's saying?

Stinger
11-20-2007, 12:42 PM
He keeps saying that he KNOWS that Brodie can't do what people are asking of him. How does he KNOW that's true?

What he sees in practice??? :shrug:

Donger
11-20-2007, 12:43 PM
Brodie can't throw down the field? Is that what he's saying?

Basically. "We aren't going to go crazy."

Donger
11-20-2007, 12:43 PM
What he sees in practice??? :shrug:

So he extrapolates that to a game scenario?

Buzz
11-20-2007, 12:45 PM
For all you that are bashing DV I remember a time when the Chiefs were 13-0 and the East and West cost media were talking about us going 16-0. I would rather have a team that could score and make it interesting than a team that cant score a friggn field goal.

RedThat
11-20-2007, 12:45 PM
Basically. "We aren't going to go crazy."

It's all a part of the plan. It's just to back up his conservative approach to the game. Brodie will never grow with this guy.

Micjones
11-20-2007, 12:46 PM
Not defending the move, but would driving down to watch Rayner miss another 45yd kick matter?

Failure is always an option.
That's simply not an excuse for not trying.

Chiefs_5627
11-20-2007, 12:48 PM
I think Herm needs to let loose more..no doubt, BUT i also think that there are other factors involved and it's not JUST one thing.

My .02

Stinger
11-20-2007, 12:49 PM
So he extrapolates that to a game scenario?

Up until last week probably. Now knowing herm and his MO it will take him till the rest of the regular season to figure out what many can see now. Herm is conservitive to a T. I don't expect him to let Brodie go wild on his first or second start in the NFL.

Donger
11-20-2007, 12:49 PM
"We need to play to our strengths, and our strength is playing defense."

He then complains about not scoring many points.

Okay, I'm a football retard, but even I can see the problem here...