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View Full Version : NFT: Today's woman vs. today's man


CanadaKC
07-06-2001, 06:57 PM
Found an intersting quote from a book titled "The Male Ego"...

"In the last generation we have seen women struggle to overcome the oppression of gender stereotyping; to unshackle
themselves from the labelings of femininity; to liberate themselves from men's view of their proper place. Many women have deluded themselves into feeling that only they had been given the dirty end of the stick. They assume their sufferings will end when they seize the initiatives, the roles, and the identities that have been exclusively a masculine preserve. They are rushing into a world of men. Be cautioned! It is a world with its own variety of humiliation and its own brand of grief.
We have created a society which there are no victors, only victims. The role of a man in our culture may be the role of privilege, but it is not the role of pride. Because men have been
vested with the power over the fate of our culture, indeed our planet, the thrashing of the male ego in decline may destroy us all. We must begin to redefine manhood in terms that are achievable; with conditions that will nurture and sustain us all, men and women. Our civilization may depend on it."

WILLARD GAYLIN, PROFFESSOR OF PSYCHIATRY,
COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY

DanT
07-06-2001, 07:34 PM
According to CanadaKC, Willard Gaylin said,
It is a world with its own variety of humiliation and its own brand of grief.


I bet anybody named Willard Gaylin would have to think that. That name might as well have a sign on it's back saying, "Kick Me!"

NaptownChief
07-06-2001, 09:19 PM
I think it is a matter of the grass is always greener...Women for the longest time stayed at home and watched the man go out and provide financially for the family. On the outside looking in they felt like they were being left out of some noble or interesting etc.etc...This generation of women wanted to dive into that role as much as possible, and have successfully done so. I think most of them are figuring out that it was vastly overrated...The old saying be careful of what you wish for comes to mind...

I think we will start to see a generation where it starts to evolve back to a slight degree...It will be very tough for it to ever go back to the way it was because most people have become accustom to the double income lifestyle...Many women will raise their daughters with the impression that going and doing the daily grind sucks...

ck_IN
07-07-2001, 11:47 AM
Personally I think it's high time we repealled the 19th Ammendment.

Those were the good old days, when women knew their place and they stayed in it. ;)

Luzap
07-07-2001, 01:10 PM
It will be very hard to get away from two income households for the simple reason that taxes take such a huge portion of our earnings.

If tax rates were lowered to 1950 levels, many, many parents would be able to stay home.

Luz
think about it...

ck_IN
07-07-2001, 02:27 PM
Hey Luz, did you hear that Tax Freedom day (the day when a person would've worked enough to pay for their federal taxes for that year) was May 10th? That's the latest in history.

No, we don't need a tax cut. Not at all.

cathyb
07-07-2001, 05:52 PM
jl 80-
I really don't think it's so much a case of 'the grass is always greener' but just being able to make a choice to have a career or to stay home without social pressure. I supported myself and lived alone for 9 years before I got married and had kids. I made the choice to stay home because I wanted to (and could fortunatley afford to do so) when I had my first child. I went back to work for about a year in my original field of telecommunications as a project manager when my second child was 4 because I was feeling bored and wanted to contribute fiscally to the household. But conflicting schedules and falling behind on kid stuff prompted my decision to stay home again. I'm lucky to have the choice, and that's what it's all about. Not jealousy or envy, but knowing that either way, it's my (and my husband's) choice.
If I decide to go back to work full time, it will be my own business where I can schedule my own hours around my family because they come first. That's certainly not to say that a working mom's family doesn't come first -- I'm just fortunate enough to be able to stay home and do some things for my kids that I couldn't do if I were working.
just a female .02!

CanadaKC
07-07-2001, 11:24 PM
Back to the male ego for a sec... For many centuries, across cultures, the essence of manhood has been defined by fulfilling three biologically guided roles: protector (warrior); provider (hunter); and procreator (sire). These were the models against which all men were measured. These were the standards on which we built our pride. Now...these three props that supported the male ego are being extremely undermined.
A prime example is male anger. Today it's an obsolete emotion. Early on, male anger was designed to protect us from predators, both human and animal. But today, there's no reason
to protect us from physical assaults that no longer exist, yet that
part of male biology still DOES exist. Man the warrior is passe.
Another example is sex. Man the procreator can no loger take comfort in having fulfilled his "role" by producing lots of kids.
Numerous offspring help no one these days. With an overpopulated world, the virtue of today is restraint. Besides,
science is taking us to the point where a man is no longer needed for sex. A sperm bank will do the job just as well.
I wouldn't be writing this if I didn't have a point. That being
that today's society seems disrespectful of the forces that created us. That's frightening because it reduces our special qualities. The idea of consciously modifying or adapting ourselves seems to me to trivialize the very nature of "self".
An example of this is the role reversal of men and woman, and how we seem to embrace it so graciously. No wonder Chyna is a star. Hollywood is a great guage of this hell-bent gender-
bending. Remember "Terminator II"? The young boy learns tenderness, caring, and affection from (gulp) Arnold Schwarzenegger? A robot designed as a killer? But he has no choice because his real-life mom is the "new woman" -- all muscle
with a bad attitude. She is Sly Stallone id drag...too tough, mean, and vicious to give her kid a hug. Is this what today's society wants: Dad as June Cleaver and Mom as Rambo?
I guess it is. Don't forget Harrison Ford had to take a bullet in his brain to "feminize" him in "Regarding Henry".
That being said, the male ego is still a poorly understood phenomenon. We know more about women, that's a no-brainer.
Females have been redifing their roles for some time now. It would be great if men were to learn from their early mistakes bv
not repeating them. And we won't correct the problems of male identity by assuming a "feminine" one, any more than women today hope to pave their way by taking on male roles. Ye this is precisely the lunacy we appear to be adopting.

There...I've vented. I feel better now. Think I'll get a beer and study my fantasy football mag :D

Rausch
07-08-2001, 01:00 AM
Here's a thought.....



What would happen to this world if men sought the rights of WOMEN. What if I WANTED to stay home with the kids, and wanted to do the homemaker stuff and whatnot....What if there was a movement of men who all decided to stay home and do housework and take care of their children.

Is it not their right as well?

Our choice too?




Never would be allowed to happen.....

California Injun
07-08-2001, 11:12 PM
Brad,

That thought was already on my mind as I scrolled through these responses, D@mmit!!!

Women have the best of both worlds today.

If they choose to work then its "You go girl!!!"

If they choose to stay home then its "What a great Mom!!"

How about us gents?

Do we EVER have a choice coming out of High School or College? Can't you just see a male high school grad saying;

"I think I will stay at home after I marry my girlfriend. We'll have 3 kids and I'll let her provide for our family"

Uh, yeah.

An unemployed male is the scourge of society. How fast would the in-laws label him a "Bum" for letting their daughter bring home the bacon?

The knife is only sharpened on one side for us guys and that is to be gainfully employed at all costs. Anything else is "uncivlized"!

yvettesvoice
07-09-2001, 12:35 AM
You've definitely given me food for thought.
I actually know a couple of guys that stay at home and do the traditional "female" job. They do not have many guy friends, as they don't have much in common with the masses. And, yes, most people look at them as being very strange.

But they did have a choice. We all have choices. It's just a matter of being strong enough to overcome the pressure of popular, and sometimes negative, opinion.

Women used to be scorned for stepping outside of the traditional box. I guess the guys will just have to be willing to put up with a lot of $h!t, too, before others become accepting of individual choices.

California Injun
07-09-2001, 08:33 AM
I am currently staring at a 5/28/01 Newsweek cover entitled "The New Single Mom". (Tells you how far behind I am in my reading).

Ever see a cover story on The New Single Dad? There's plenty of them out there so where is the pub?

Women have made great strides for equality but throw them in front of a judge with kids in tow and they'll end up with custody 8 times out of 10. (The other 2 were close calls.)

Sexual harrassment of a guy is suppose to be flattering in the workplace. Press charges and you are a **** or a queer.

Where women get screwed is with the Mommy Track. BUT they do get more latitude when it comes to time off from their employer because "My son/daughter is sick."

If a father calls in to tend to a child at home with the flu then eyebrows are raised in the boardroom.

Where is it said that women are the only creatures that can be nuturing?

cathyb
07-09-2001, 09:20 AM
Cal- it's not a rule but I guess it's because we give birth. But I do know of a few mothers that abandoned their kids and couldn't care less. Being female doesn't guarantee being nurturing or even caring about our offspring. Though that behavior tends to be more of the exception than the rule. You tend to hear about more absentee dads than moms. I don't know why, does anyone?

But being male doesn't preclude bieng nurturing. My husband is a great example of a very caring and nurturing dad. It's one of the reasons I married him. He made a decision a couple of years ago to stop putting in the long hours and to be home by 6 almost every night. When I was working for a year or so, he took turns with me staying home when the kids were sick (and with daycare it was a lot) and he didn't care what anyone thought. I can leave the house for a couple of hours or a couple of days or weeks and know that my kids will be fed, read to, hugged, kissed and told how much they are loved in mass quantities.

The fact that for years women didn't make nearly the same $ men did in the work place made it almost impossible for a man to stay home while his wife worked. Now that's not true. If a man wants to stay home, he can do so. I don't think it's a huge issue because most men (I'm assuming here..) don't want to. My husband is a great dad, but would he want to stay home and take care of the kids and house? NO. But like Yvette said, it CAN be done... it IS allowed. However, the male ego that Canada spoke of is alive and well and not many males (I'm guessing) can overcome the urge to be the breadwinner. I don't think that's a bad thing either. It just IS. Yes, some people raise their judgemental eyebrows at unconventional families, but if it's important enough to a family to do it, who cares?? I think there's a TV show now about a stay-at-home dad... maybe it's off the air now. Hollywood gave it a shot though... First Ellen, now stay- at home dads!!:p

Canada-- you bring up some very valid points. A couple of years ago my husband and I went to counseling, seperately, to work on some stuff. And one of the things he talked most about was the fact that in this modern society, men really don't have any one thing marking their passage into manhood. Women menstruate.. pretty obvious, but boys don't have a ceremony (except BarMitzvahs for Jewish boys) that marks their passage into manhood. There is a book called 'Big John' that my hubbie read and really liked that addresses this issue. It might sound like a minor issue, the passage into manhood ceremony thing.... but it has interesting ramifications.

Clint in Wichita
07-09-2001, 09:31 AM
I'd LOVE to stay home and take care of my son and the house, but I'd be made to feel like a bum.

For the record, don't ever let a woman tell you that staying at home with your kids is as difficult as working full-time. I know first-hand that it's simply not true...my wife freely admits it. THAT is the REAL reason so many women are now deciding that they prefer to stay home, IMO. They finally became part of the workforce, and they learned what men have known the whole time: Working for someone else sucks arse.

I can't blame them for using their gender to get over.

Lightning Rod
07-09-2001, 10:20 AM
I actually think women are a little more extreme than men. The best, and kindest people I've ever met have been female. The most self-centered evil people I've met were women too. Generally speaking women today work outside of the house full time, and do over 50% of the house work. The problem comes from those that think there is MAN stuff to be done but, not woman stuff. I had one of those. I always figured your supposed to be a team I don't mind changing diapers so why don't you wash the car or mow the yard from time to time? I have nothing but contempt for those men that do not take responsibility for their children. Strangely enough I have seen an equal number of pathetic mothers. They didn't call it the dead beat parent law. They called it the dead beat DAD law. My child support started not only before our divorce was final but before I even moved out. I had to write a check from "our" account to the County so the could write one back to her, less the service charge of course. Right after I got divorced the amount of my child support changed. They did not inform my company in a timely manner so the amount automatically garnished from my paycheck was $200.00 less. Actually they started this a mother earlier than they were supposed to but that was pretty much too bad. I received a very nasty letter showing I was delinquent. Naturally I feet a bit angry and embarrassed. I marched down to the "District Court Trustee" office and paid up. I'm not sure, but I think part of the requirement on the job application to work there must have been that "some man had done ya wrong." There was a great deal of MANGER in that room. Man + anger = Manger. Basically what I did was pay an extra month so that From now on I would always be a month ahead. All things considered my X and I get along reasonably well and to her credit she has not put our children in the middle of our disagreements. This is something I seen too many times from both the mothers and the fathers and it is really a chicken-sh%t thing to do. Well I'm just rambling on with out and clarity of thought so I'll just stop by saying neither men nor women have a monopoly on good or self-centered behavior.

Clint in Wichita
07-09-2001, 10:28 AM
IMO child support should consist of very little cash.

If you were to take a months supply of diapers (if necessary), food, clothing, some toys, and a few bucks for miscellaneous items, what's the problem? The mom has to pay for rent, electricity, etc. whether she has a kid or not.

When a woman receives $400 a month for one kid, it makes you wonder what the hell SHE'S paying for!!

cathyb
07-09-2001, 03:05 PM
Clint- my question to you is .. who is it that would make you feel like a bum if you stayed home? Your wife? Friends? Inlaws? Yourself?? And even if you were labeled a bum, but you knew you were doing something that benefitted you and your children, who cares? Surely you're tougher skinned than that. Or maybe deep down, that's how you'd really feel.... that caveman instinct coming up...(again, i don't think that's a bad thing, it just is.)

As for the don't let any woman tell you blah blah... I worked for many years before I decided to stay home and having been on both sides I can tell you this-- taking care of a house and a newborn is much more difficult than working a regular job, I don't care how big of an arse you work for. Every minute of your day is dictated my someone else - someone that can't even talk and craps their pants all day (reminds me of some former bosses...)
It's demanding, tiring, frustrating , and all the while you feel like your brain is slowly leaking out your pores since the biggest mental challenge you face during the day is Wheel of Fortune.
Now, since my kids are older, things are different. My life is much easier and I feel lucky to be at home. The kids aren't so physically demanding now and we can go and do fun things together, or they can play outside (while I read the Planet!)
If I had a husband who didn't do anything around the house or wasn't willing to do 'chauffer duty' sometimes and I was trying to work full time, I'd go crazy.
Both jobs are tough, I've tried them.

Clint in Wichita
07-09-2001, 04:18 PM
Maybe "easier" was the wrong word, and it depends on whether the full-time worker has a satisfying career or just a job. If I woke up eager to start the work day, I'd rather go to work than stay home.

As far as feeling like a bum, I would cringe every time someone asked me what I do for a living.

It's like being a male nurse. Or a female welder.

There's nothing wrong with it, but unfortunately you'll always be looked at as either a "loser" or a "bum".

LoudMouth
07-09-2001, 04:51 PM
Okay, I am a professional female that made the decision to stay home after the birth of my first child. Let me state that going to work is much harder then staying home with a newborn! Even five or six children!

There are many men in today’s society that are stay at home dads, I even worked with a dad that did all of the running for his children, his wife was a lawyer and he was an owner of one of the largest insurance agencies in Kansas. So, a man being labeled a bum or a loser for staying home or helping out with the children is a farce.

With that being said let me get back to the topic of male egos. It is true that women want to be seen as equals. Whether it is in the work place, sports or academic. But, smart women know that that will never take place. They know that no matter how hard they try, there are things that men are just better at. There is no reason why women can't have their own basketball team, soccer team, or be able to be a professional wrestler (but in reality she would never beat a man, unless he was just a *u%sy!!) If a mans ego cannot allow women to have their own identity, rather then just doing what the man says should be done, then he just needs to go back in time where the mans prospective was so diminutive and they needed a mother rather then a partner for life.

California Injun
07-10-2001, 12:48 AM
Clint,

I happen to fall into your category of "loser or bum" as my profession is a Registered Nurse. This was the best thing I ever did because it has flexibility and security with today's severe nursing shortages.

I can work 7 days a week or 2 days a week if it suits me. If you get bored with one field of nursing, you can switch positions, shifts, or place of employment. Salaries range from mid-40s to upper 70s and when your mate is also an RN it is not a bad career choice.

My dream gig is to work as a contracted nurse in Kansas City from September to December but the spouse and kids dictate otherwise.

But once the youngest hits 18........:D

Otter
07-10-2001, 01:51 AM
For what its worth, here’s my ¢.02 on the staying home with the kids…

If financially possible I would have no problem staying home with the kids. I wouldn’t feel like a bum or loser. If somebody wanted to label me a bum or a loser for making sure my kids weren’t raised by television or an unqualified stranger then I would challenge them to look into the mirror and determine who is the true loser.

I enjoy my profession, its challenging, clean, nice work environment and all that good stuff but its not my endeavor. At the end of the day, my hard work goes into some soulless, moneymaking, capitalist venture that would as quickly page me on a Saturday evening because there’s a problem that I didn’t cause or if overhead didn’t meet profit margin, lay me off.

Watching your kids grow and knowing that there is somebody there for them to see them off to school and answer “why is the sky blue” questions versus making money for some corporate fat cat is not even a valid question to me.

otter
~applying the “big picture” theory

mcan
07-10-2001, 03:31 AM
well said