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stevieray
07-08-2001, 11:50 AM
I've been wondering which game this season will show us what kind of football team we have. I pick the Raiders. That team is pretty much intact and has our # the last few games. If we can play strong against them, will it be an indicator of the season? Or wiil it take the entire 16 games to make a fair assessment?

If not chokeland, then who ?

BigMeatballDave
07-08-2001, 12:04 PM
Well, beating the Raiders might be a good indication, but I think a better one would be late-season game against a weaker team would be even better.

FloridaChief
07-08-2001, 12:10 PM
Hmmm...

Well, i think beating a STRONGER team late in the season might be an even better indicator....

Whaddayathink?

Bwana
07-08-2001, 12:22 PM
Anything can happen the first day depending on wha tthe coach has done with the team. If the team has "gelled" and is playing well, it could be a sign of things to come. One thing I have noticed is opening day is a time that all teams screw up. If the Raiders came in an beat us like a rug, say 35-3 I would write more into it than if we beat the Raiders opening day.

CHIEFS!!

BigMeatballDave
07-08-2001, 12:42 PM
FloridaChief - I agree completely! But, you know as well as I do the Chiefs choke in late-season games against lessor teams. Remember last season we dominated Denver but sucked arse in Atlanta.

milkman
07-08-2001, 12:50 PM
KCChiefs 30 and FloridaChief,
I think that both of you are right in this.

Our performance against a strong opponent in a late season game will, IMO, provide a measuring stick of the talent of this team, and how well they have jelled together.

Our performance against a weaker opponent in a late season game will provide a measuring stick of the improvement of our coaching staff.

ck_IN
07-08-2001, 12:58 PM
I'd pick week 8 when the Colts come to town.

By midseason we should have gelled as well as we're going to and the new O should be fully in place. And we're at home. Barring injury, we should have no excuses.

By the same token, I've no doubt that Manning picks up apart and our 'D' gets spanked early and often. On the bright side, maybe Green won't confirm my worst fears about him as he plays a better than average D while trying to come back from a deficit.

The Bad Guy
07-08-2001, 01:03 PM
I think the first game will be a big test, however I think the biggest test will come against the Seahawks in week 2.

We will be away from Arrowhead, and not have the emotion running wild throughout the stadium.

Week 1 will be a lot of energy and emotion running through the players as they prepare to play the first game of the Dick Vermeil era at Arrowhead.

Typically over the last 5 years, week two has been a pretty good indicator of how good the Chiefs will be.

Back in 1997 we had the Grbac to Rison miracle at the end of the Monday Night game on the road against the Faiders. After that we went on a tear.

In 1998, we lost to Jacksonville on the road and that was just the start of a severly dissapointing year.

In 1999, we beat Denver at home. After the terrible road loss to the Bears, Gunther finally got the team on the right track. The year was a mild success after the Denver win, but a kickoff specialist and Pete Stoyo kept the playoffs out of the grasp.

Finally in 2000 the loss to Tennessee on the road was a backbreaker in my opinion and told the story of how we would play. When we needed the one extra yard, we couldn't get it. When we needed a big defensive stop, the 2000 Chiefs couldn't do it.

I think this week two against Seattle on the road will prove a lot in my mind how far along or behind the Chiefs will be for 2001.

The Bad Guy
07-08-2001, 01:07 PM
CK_In writes:
By the same token, I've no doubt that Manning picks up apart and our 'D' gets spanked early and often. On the bright side, maybe Green won't confirm my worst fears about him as he plays a better than average D while trying to come back from a deficit.

While I will agree with you on the Manning tearing our D apart, I have a hard time calling the Colts defense a better than average unit.

Their cornerbacks are extremely poor, and they cut loose a big player in their defense in Belser. They will likely be starting David Mackin, who is a second year guy, and a rookie next to Chad Cota. They have no decent linebackers outside of Mike Peterson and their front four are weak with the exception of Chad Braztzke.

Their defense is one of the poorest in the league.

I'm guessing this game will be a shootout with Indy.

ck_IN
07-08-2001, 01:18 PM
Actually the Colts have a good front 4 with Ellis Johnson inside and Bratzke outside. Their #1 draft choice from last year, Rob Morris, should be back at full strength from his injury and makes a good 1-2 with Peterson. The CB's are average but the safety's are good. Belser was simply not performing like he had. I miss Belser out here in Indy but I guess age simply caught up with him, he wasn't starter material anymore. They have good ST's which help the D greatly.

All in all I'd view their D as better than average, or at least average. That's why I think it should be our telling game. Their D will give Green some resistance without being stiffling. And he'll have to play with the pressure of a deficit in a winable game in front of his own fans. It'll show whether Green made the Rams system or the Rams system made him. I think the latter but hope for the former.

BigMeatballDave
07-08-2001, 01:44 PM
I also disagree with the Colts having a better than average 'D'. I agree with Franks comments. Their defense is just as much of a question mark as the Chiefs. Of course, ck_IN, you think the Chiefs will have a worse season WITHOUT the 3-stooges and Dumbther at the helm.

Luzap
07-08-2001, 01:53 PM
This is a great question, but I don't think there's anyway to really answer it before hand.

It is my belief that the #1 critical factor in our success this year will be the team's belief in itself and the coaching staff.

Early losses could be damaging to the team's confidence, yet at almost any point in the first half of the season, a great coaching staff could turn a win against a strong opponent into a rallying cry that builds momentum into and throughout the playoffs.

I've watched good teams peak to early, and I've watched good teams with bad coaching never peak at all.

I really think this year comes down not to talent, but to coaching.

Luz
guardedly opptomistic about the season...

Cormac
07-08-2001, 02:00 PM
Some good arguments here. I agree with Chuck that the Indy game could be a telling contest. We've played them (pretty well considering) each of the last 2 seasons. I also think their D is poor, and we have a shot against them if we improve as much as we hope. It should be a good game, especially as we also have them at Arrowhead.

The other big indicator could be @Oakland in week 14. Assuming they are not all beat up by then :p, this should be a good late-season test for us. Let's hope we're still coming together as a team by then, and not petering out.

philfree
07-08-2001, 02:10 PM
Seems every year the Chiefs reach a game that if they win it puts them in the drivers seat. Of late it seems we lose these games. It's hard to say which game that will be but it will happen. I'm with Luz and believe that coaching will play a major role in the outcome of that game and the season as a whole. A big win on openning day against the Raiders would do all of hearts a world of good, players and fans alike. I don't think our season rests on that game though. The season turner will come mid to late season IMO.

PhilFree :cool:

KCJohnny
07-08-2001, 02:23 PM
The answer is YES.
If Vermiel can't get this team up for the hated raiders IN hallowed Arrowhead, then we will see what we have right there on 9 September.

The Vermiel era MUST begin with a win at home. Any KC coach MUST capitalize on the Arrowhead advantage, where we have beaten several eventual SB winners. If Gunther can get the Chiefs to within 3 the last two times, then Vermiel MUST prepare the Chiefs to not only beat but pound the Raiders at home, or else he is a huge disappointment.

And I don't wanna hear any whiny excuses about new this or new that either.

KCJ
12th man will be ready; will the 11?

Valiant
07-08-2001, 02:28 PM
week 1:
Chiefs 21
oakland 20... gannon out for two weeks thanks to hicks..
(1-0)

week 2:
chiefs 13
Seahawks 28....chiefs dazed in the first never gain composure..
(1-1)

week 3:
Chiefs 35
giants 14..chiefs score early, let defense set the pace
(2-1)

Week 4:
chiefs 24
Skins 28...schotty says it was all him in kc to peterson...
(2-2)

week 5:
chiefs 24
Broncos 21..Chester jumps offside and moves denver out of fg range...
(3-2)

week 6:
Chiefs 34
steelers 24...chiefs run for 210yds
(4-2)

week 7:
chiefs 24
Cards 31..chiefs underestimated cards, cards rack up 350yds pass
(4-3)

week 8:
Chiefs 13
colts 10..offensive show becomes defensive show...
(5-3)

week 9:
chiefs 17
Chargers 31..flutie hurt, rookie comes in and throws for 3tds..defense shuts us out in second half
(5-4)

week 10:
chiefs 24
Jets 30..trent sprained elbow out for 1-2weeks...
(5-5)

week 11:
rest week
(5-5)

week 12:
Chiefs 14
seahawks 19..chiefs lose 3 in a row...and safety in 4th qtr...
(5-6)

week 13:
Chiefs 51
eagles 32..trent throws 5tds in return..holmes runs for 2tds and 180yds in romp...
(6-6)

week 14:
chiefs 28
Raiders 34...shock of love child being born..scares all chiefs players into not wanting to play...
(6-7)

week 15:
Chiefs 32
broncos 31...chester agian jumps offsides taking denver out of scoring play..crowd starts chanting chester...later that week broncos release the cancer...
(7-7)

week 16:
chiefs 34
Chargers 38..say-OW..broken leg in the first..offensive frenzy ensues...chiefs fail to get last play in due to some crazed fat man who looks like chester streaking across the field...
(7-8)

week 17:
chiefs 35
Jags 24...chiefs hicks ends brunells career..in third qtr...hicks will be named to first probowl game with his 17sacks...trent(3400yds, 35tds) to be in probowl also with hicks,richardson(1100 combined yds),gonzales(15tds), and alexander(1200yds recieving)...
(8-8)

year go well...new fan interest...vermeil vows to have team in superbowl by next year...

DaWolf
07-08-2001, 03:01 PM
I think everyone will still be trying to grasp the system, and if we do hit our stride, it won't be until sometime midseason. Now we're going to get up for the Raiders, but we might see a lot of missed patterns and guys out of position on defense or whatever because the system has not been fully grasped yet. Of course if our defenders learn how to tackle, we can beat the Raiders.

But I think if this team is any good, midseason is when we'll see it. We'll probably be up and down the first six weeks...

TCB
07-08-2001, 05:21 PM
Chiefs should win this game!
The difference will be the D. The last 2 years, with Kurt at the helm of the D, has been a complete mess. He never had a clue.
This years D will be much improved even in week 1.
The Raiduhs have an offense comprised of a bunch of guys who forgot to retire.
DV and crew should have these guys ready for this one.
However, this game will be one of emotion, it will be midseason before you can get an indication of how good this team is.

ken man

tommykat
07-08-2001, 09:44 PM
Not reading all the posts, but most.......most are going on what was<<<Last year. Remember #1. We have a new team. #2. We have a whole new system to run. #3. Also a new coaching staff. #4. Trent Green, and HE IS NOT A RAM anymore HE IS A CHIEF, so let's refer to him that way and not the way it was! #5. Rebuilding, yes but I think we are going to have a darn good team this year:D
Also, as far as loosing in the last few games last year. That was a lot of emotional stress do to DT.'s passing and all of his stuff still in the locker room that the players had to see daily and be reminded of. Also, there was NO harmony within the Chiefs players or the organization. Which I see is a MAJOR change this year.:D :p
_________________________________________

I say......"LET'S GO CHIEFS"!!!! :cool: :cool:

Skip Towne
07-08-2001, 09:55 PM
Hey - TommyCat, I very much enjoy your posts. Are you blonde I need to ask? Do you like blonde jokes? Haha.

KCTitus
07-09-2001, 08:51 AM
I think it starts before the first reg season game. It starts in the pre-season games. I want to see the new philosophy of game prep and coherence. Unlike the Gunther pre-seasons which were unlike anything I have ever witnessed, I want to see some semblence of game play along with talent evaluation. By the 3rd game, KC should be putting the final touches on their game 1 prep and the starters should be looking sharp.

Last pre season was the most pathetic excuse and waste of 4 warm up games in the history of football. I would hope that the staff alone will mark a change and it should set the tone for the upcoming season.

The Vermiel era MUST begin with a win at home. Any KC coach MUST capitalize on the Arrowhead advantage, where we have beaten several eventual SB winners. If Gunther can get the Chiefs to within 3 the last two times, then Vermiel MUST prepare the Chiefs to not only beat but pound the Raiders at home, or else he is a huge disappointment.

And I don't wanna hear any whiny excuses about new this or new that either.

This is the same nonsense I read last year about Grbac's performance. Must this and must that and wont this and wont that and 'it's over before it starts'. Let's cut the crapola and save the chicken little routines for the board where the fascists live.

The Oakland game is going to be a tough game and one that will be close. I dont expect KC to pound anyone in week 1 especially the Raiders. It would be nice, but this is going to be a tough game. If KC loses a tough game the season is not 'lost'.

California Injun
07-09-2001, 09:42 AM
The Oakland game is HUGE and will set the tone for 2001. Last year's loss to Indy in the opener sent a clear message that the "Mystique" was gone at Arrowhead. (And that the Stooges were in full control)

The Raiders games are fast approaching our Super Bowls much like it was in the 70s and 80s. Given the new staff, the recent close losses to them, and the fact I'm flying in for this game make it VERY IMPORTANT that they kill these guys!!!

Factor in the Chiefs haven't lost a home game with your truly in attendance since 1984 and well.....

...time for a trip to Tahoe to spot the points!!!!

RaiderCorporate
07-09-2001, 10:36 AM
Vermeil will likely use preseason like most coaches - projected starters get a few series per game and nothing fancy gameplan wise. Preseason won't be good indication.

You guys should know what kind of team you have by season game #4. Any one game is not enough indication; by the end of 4 games you'll have results from both home and away games and have a good sense of both offensive and defensive capabilities.

A Raiders win at narrowhead will not be the end of the world for you guys.

Clint in Wichita
07-09-2001, 10:50 AM
I really hated the way that KC didn't seem to draw much inspiration from DT's death.

I have memories of Loyola-Marymount crushing Michigan in the NCAA tourney after the death of Hank Gathers. Remember Bo Kimble shooting free throws with his off hand, in honor of him?

I saw nothing like that last year. I felt like they betrayed the memory of DT with their sub-par performance. Maybe this year will be different.

alanm
07-09-2001, 11:00 AM
I'm with KCTitus on this one. A winning attitude has to be established in preseason. Winning begets winning! If it's just the scrubs playing I want our scrubs to be tougher than the scrubs on the other team. It helps set the tone for the beginning of the year. And they need to reestablish the fundamentals ie: Blocking and Tackling we do that better than anyone else you know what? WE WIN :D

KCTitus
07-09-2001, 11:13 AM
Corporate: If Vermeil uses preseason like most coaches it will STILL be a departure from the last two preseasons.

Most coaches gradually play the starters longer and longer and by the 3rd preseason game play the entire first half as a 'dress rehearsal' for the first week and the last game is reserved for bubble players to show what they got.

preseason is a good indicator only when the starters are playing the starters. Does the team hook up, stupid penalties, does the team look fired up or do they look dazed and confused.

Last years preseason was a wonderful indicator of what Gun had built as far as a team. Listless and confused with no real direction or plan of attack and that pretty much carried into the season.

I dont expect the starters to play all the time or Vermeil to show every play he has to win in the preseason, but I do expect much better than last year.

That said, I guess it's different for oakland.

Jim Hunter
07-10-2001, 06:25 AM
Hmm......I keep thinking about the Chargers going 0-4 and playing in the SB that year. Who wudda' thunk ? So if we lose our opener against the Raiders its not like the seasons over by a long shot. What will be more of a measuring stick of our team is how quickly the new coaching staff corrects the mistakes that we will make and how effective those changes are.

Gaz
07-10-2001, 07:50 AM
My criteria for this season is constant improvement.

I am not expecting a wonderful Win/Loss record this year. There has been a HUGE [long overdue] upheaval in this team, and it is highly unlikely that they will "gel" in such a short time. We will make stupid mistakes and will probably lose some "winnable" games early in the season. We will probably lose the opener to the hated Raiders and I will be inconsolate with grief, despite my low expectations.

But I expect that our Stoogeless team will correct the errors and get better every game.

I do not anticipate us vying for a playoff spot this season. That comes next year.

xoxo~
Gaz
Preparing a Thorazine/Prozac cocktail for The Fan.

KCJohnny
07-10-2001, 07:59 AM
This is the same nonsense I read last year about Grbac's performance. Must this and must that and wont this and wont that and 'it's over before it starts'. Let's cut the crapola and save the chicken little routines for the board where the fascists live.

Same old double standard.

Gunther's Chiefs didn't beat Oakland at home, so off with his head. Meanwhile Dick Vermiel gets a free pass to blow the home opener against the most important rival in the Conference.

Can't you see how hypocritical that sounds?

Sorry, Titus. The Chiefs are Not getting ANY free passes from me. Three coaches with SB rings and the #2 rated QB from last year. You can soft peddle the 'new this and new that' angle all you want. The Chiefs need to win that game.

And I did not suggest that the season would be over if the Chiefs dropped the opener. I said with all the expectations, Vermiel would be a disappointment if the Chiefs lost the Arrowhead advantage right out of the box.


You can call me chicken little if you want, but at least I have high expectations. Welcome everyone to the dumbing down of the Chiefs.

KCJ

Cormac
07-10-2001, 08:17 AM
KCJ,

I wasn't a Gun fan, but I wholly respect your loyalty to him and all things smashmouth. But I think you'll find that DV will also quickly fall out of favour with many fans if we open up a game with 6 runs......if we play a soft zone against Oakland and other dink-dunk teams and get beaten off the field......if we can't tackle or defend the screen pass........if the starting RB gets taken out of the game after 2 carries........if we play RB by situation and keep going back to a RB who averages less than 1 ypc on the season when we are in short-yardage situations because that is what we do:confused: The demands on DV are going to be high, never fear.

A lot of us are brimming with hope that this new system (no matter where it came from) will revolutionise this team that is absolutely mired in mediocrity. This team needs a shot in the arm and to be honest, at the moment, the W-L record doesn't count for much this year. Those of us who are happy DV is here (or at least that significant changes have been made) are willing to sit back and watch the team as it evolves this season. There won't be too much patience shown I am sure, but all we can expect (given the immense improvements by our division rivals) is to get to .500 IMO, and to play with passion and week-to-week improvement. This is not an obvious improvement to the casual onlooker, but having shaved $30m+ off our cap, resigned Shields/Clemons, brought in a new QB/RB, and overhauled our STs and coaching staff, the future looks pretty bright. I expect really big results in 2002 and 2003. JMO.

KCTitus
07-10-2001, 08:19 AM
Double standard-yes, look in the mirror.

I have been nothing but consistent with regard to my critique of the Chiefs. If you wish to provide a post or two of mine that shows a double standard, I welcome your futile attempt.

Gunther didnt get my ire until the end of the 1999/2000 season. Why you might ask, because of his stupid decision to give the ball back to oakland when all KC needed was a first down to win the division and go into the playoffs. Now, I understand that's your brand of football the conservative/let the other team have the ball and snatch defeat from the jaws of victory, but it's not mine. KC put up 35 points that day, which means they were able to move the ball, only they went into the typical 1950's style offense when it mattered most. 1 first down, 10 yards, all that was needed and ZERO passes to TG our only true playmaker.

I had nothing bad to say about Gunther before jan 2, 2000, and it only went downhill from there.

I am not giving Vermeil a free pass, but then again, Im not the one saying that if Vermeil doesnt win game 1, the season is a loss. Once again, you'll need to look into the mirror for that.

I love your expectations, John, you keep rising them to levels that are unrealistic to fit your original 'theory' that DV's brand of football is a failure. All this during a time when not even ONE snap has been taken. Like I did with Gun, if DV makes dumb decisions like the ones made in the jan 2 game, I will criticize just the same.

Last, it is ironic that you mention dumbing down of KC's team when they just rid themselves of arguably the worst assembled coaching staff in the entire NFL (responsible for at least 3 of the teams losses last year) over a coaching staff that has proven they actually know how to make and win in the playoffs.

Bob Dole
07-10-2001, 08:24 AM
Part of Bob Dole is sticking with the Gaz version of low expectations for the 2001 season.

Another part of Bob Dole remembers seeing situations mismanaged by the coaching staff (Titans game in particular), players that were "in the groove" that were relegated to the sidelines (pick any of 73 different instances), players that were used improperly (Edwards), and games where the players obviously quit on the coaching staff (Atlanta).

Last year's team had more talent than the team's final record indicated, IBDHO. The changes in the coaching staff alone should improve that.

As for the "new system" argument... The team had a "new system" almost every week last season and managed to win 7 games. If nothing else, Goonthar and The Stooges prepared the team to adapt to change.

And it's apparent that Elvis had little respect in the locker room and wasn't much of a leader. Perhaps Marty's last year was not entirely Marty's fault. Trent Green appears at this point to be <b>way</b> ahead of Grabass in the leadership department, which will help the team "gel" more quickly than it would have if Elfus has stayed.

Call Bob Dole a homer, but Bob Dole thinks we might have a sleeper.

Gaz
07-10-2001, 08:40 AM
Bob Dole-

Welcome to the Fan/Engineer dichotomy. You will quickly get used to the voices arguing in your head. In time, you will come to trust their advice and miss them when the medication kicks in.

xoxo~
Gaz
Constantly of two minds.

KCTitus
07-10-2001, 08:44 AM
Last year's team had more talent than the team's final record indicated, IBDHO. The changes in the coaching staff alone should improve that.

Exactly.

kcred
07-10-2001, 09:20 AM
I, personally, am going to watch the last 10 games of the season, to guage my outlook for 02. I agree with Gaz, and Dole, I don't necessarily think we have a playoff team this year. But, of course, remembering the football is oblong, anything is possible. As of now, and it is way too early, I believe our overall defense is worse than last year. Glock and Hasty, were players. Glock demanded double team coverage, and who will do that this year. Hasty shut down his side of the field, why he wasn't lined up against opponents #1 receiver, I have no clue. Both of these guys were troublesome in the LR, and for that reason, I am glad they are gone. If our DBs, cannot cover in man, what choice will we have, but to go back to zone. If that happens, we do not have Edwards in position either, and those 3rd and 7s, become 1st and 10s again. On offense, and I was a Grbacker, I believe we have improved with Green and his attitude, I doubt he throws for over 4000 yds, but overall I see improvement, and also a new game plan in the regime. Given the first six games to "gel" or whatever, I would want to see no less than 7-3 out of the last 10, which would spark my enthusiasm for 02. This is just my opinion, but beating the Raiders might be the tonic for whatever happens the next 5 games.

Katie
07-10-2001, 09:38 AM
If the Raiders get crunched at Arrowhead in the opening game, does that mean THEIR season is in the toilet?

California Injun
07-10-2001, 10:02 AM
Katie,

If the Raiders lose the opener, their season is in the toilet.

If the Raiders win the opener, their season is in the toilet.

If the Raiders go 16-0, their season is in the toilet.

If the Raiders get to the AFC Championship, insert those scented wafers to mask the inevitable stinker that will be floating in those deep blue waters.

You see, the Raiders are unable to cross the goal line in Championship Games that qualify you for the Super Bowl.

In essence, the Raiders are adept at reaching for the roll of paper to wipe themselves off after another humiliating defecation by that putrid offense in Championship games.

Throw a noodle-armed QB into the mix and the toilet handle is all that awaits their Super Bowl aspirations.

Warrior5
07-10-2001, 10:37 AM
Sure the opener will be a yardstick, but I agree with KCTitus...pre-season will too. Think about it: two seasons ago, a virtually intact Chiefs team split the pre-season 2-2, and last year lost every game. We all know the results. We can all say that pre-season doesn't mean squat, but it really does.
If there is a new team chemistry developing in KC, we should start seeing some of that in pre-season. Everyone will be up when the Skins come to town, and you know Vermiel will be doing his level best when playing for the Governor's Cup in St Louis. Man, I really want to got to that game!

KCJohnny
07-10-2001, 12:18 PM
I've never seen anything like this.
And you guys rode me for YEARS about being a homer.

Just come clean, man.

Here's a simple question:
Gunther lost two games at home to Oakland by 3 points each (41-38 OT and 20-17). He is (in your estimation) the worst coach since football was discovered on a remote island in Ohio in 1654.

If the all great and successful and 'with it' SB winner Dick Vermiel is better, why are you so afraid to pick the Chiefs in the opener???? Scared?

My pick: KC 30, Oakland 20

You guys look ridiculous taking cover behind the 'new system.'
And PLEASE stop bleating about 2002! 2002! And some of you are blathering about 2003!!! Vermiel might die of old age by then.

If Vermiel is better than Gunther with a the great Coryell system, Trent Green, humma humma, then come out and pick the Chiefs to rock the Raiders on opening day at Arrowhead.

Sheeeeeeeesh!

Chiefs will rule in Arrowhead, forget the timid run-for-cover conservatives. KCJ is on the record picking a Chiefs superb performance in week 1.

And if Vermiel blows it, you better have the integrity to call it the way it is.

KCJ
Chiefs Fan

Phobia
07-10-2001, 12:26 PM
Hey, I'll pick the Chiefs in the opener! I intend to be there!

The only time I saw the Chiefs lose at the head was last year to the Bills. They absolutely were NOT emotionally THERE for that game and very nearly won it.....

Luzap
07-10-2001, 12:32 PM
Well, one thing is for sure ~ this will be one of the most interesting and closely watched preseasons AND Home Opener in many a seasons!

This is why I love Chiefs football. I am smart enough to know that on any given day, any team in the NFL can beat any other team.

I am realistic enough to know that there are probably other teams in the league that have more talant than my beloved Chiefs.

I'm wise enough to know that sometimes coaching and team confidence and unity can overcome a lack of talent.

I'm old enough to know that history does count ~ two Super Bowles is nothing to laugh at.

And I'm enough of a fan to watch every pre season and regular season game with a passion and anticipation that will not die until the echoes of the final whistle fade into nothingness within the screaming confines of Arrow Head Stadium.

Luz
every game matters to me...

RaiderCorporate
07-10-2001, 12:58 PM
Injun:

“You see, the Raiders are unable to cross the goal line in Championship Games that qualify you for the Super Bowl.”

Most of your post is wishful thinking. The above quote is a lie. The Raiders crossed the goal line in Championship Games to qualify for the Super Bowl four times – twice as many times as your red and mostly yellow team.

Didn’t know you were so obsessed with the Raiders. That's good.

KCTitus
07-10-2001, 01:17 PM
Here's a simple question:
Gunther lost two games at home to Oakland by 3 points each (41-38 OT and 20-17). He is (in your estimation) the worst coach since football was discovered on a remote island in Ohio in 1654.

If the all great and successful and 'with it' SB winner Dick Vermiel is better, why are you so afraid to pick the Chiefs in the opener???? Scared?

Im not sure if this was aimed at me or not, but I will answer.

First, maybe you should try reading my entire posts. It's obvious you never got past the 'nonsense' remark. Had you read my entire post, you would have noted in the last paragraph of #20 my prediction of the Oakland game--a tough close game.

Why dont I predict a score, you might ask? I havent seen the team play yet--not even one snap. I have no earthy idea what the team looks like or how they will play and I think it's ludicrous to make such a prediction at this point, but dont let that stop the great and powerful KCJohnny...

As far as your prediction, I hardly see a 10 pt win as a 'pounding' that, according to your eariler posts, is a MUST to spell success in the Vermeil era. Maybe you could try to stay consistent...alas, that would require you to be objective--my bad.

Second, had you read my next post, #30, you would have seen my justification as to why I (and others) fault the previous staff. As I noted, one can point to at least 3 games in 2000 and the jan 2, 2000 game as directly related to the staff. Also, I stated that the entire staff, not just Gun, was the worst assembled staff in the nfl. Big difference, but I understand letting your 'wood' for Gun get in the way of reading the paragraph properly.

Iowanian
07-10-2001, 01:22 PM
Its nice to see that Packfan's Raider alter-ego is back.

The Chiefs will whoop the Raiduhs opening day for several reasons.
1.Opening day in Arrowhead.
2. Robinson has the Faiduh's number.
3. no 6 staight running plays for no gain.
4. Rich Gannon will be too nervous about "the fan" to concentrate on the game.

~happy day

Gaz
07-10-2001, 01:22 PM
forget the timid run-for-cover conservatives

With all due respect, Chaplain, you can bite me.

xoxo~
Gaz
Neither timid nor running for cover.

KCJohnny
07-10-2001, 01:52 PM
"Tough close game."
Wow.
THat's a bold assertion. Hmm. That's really putting your rep on the line. How do you do it?

Again, I did not say anything positive about Cunningham. I simply issued the dare to apply the same standards to Vermiel.

Also, I did not say that the Chiefs would pound Oakland, I said with the supposed advantages of the new staff/system, the Chiefs SHOULD pound the Faiders. What I predicted was:

KCJ is on the record picking a Chiefs superb performance in week 1.

30-20 answers that prediction accurately.

KCJ
Women and children out first...

KCTitus
07-10-2001, 01:58 PM
Again, read my entire post, maybe you'll glean from the words above the 2nd grade level my reasoning for not going any further with a prediction. If you need help with definitions, just let me know.

Maybe you could back up and clarify something. What dare are you referring to, and if you held Vermeil to the same standards you hold Gun, we wouldnt be reading these chicken little posts about how the season will be decimated and fans in complete dismay if oakland isnt pounded in week 1.

As far as your 'pounding' statement is concerned, you might recall posting this:

If Gunther can get the Chiefs to within 3 the last two times, then Vermiel MUST prepare the Chiefs to not only beat but pound the Raiders at home, or else he is a huge disappointment.

If not, you might want to change your password, because some dumba$$ logged in as you and posted that tripe.

Ethelyn
07-10-2001, 02:08 PM
I need some place to stay in KC when I come in for the first game. It'll be my parents, (mother on walker), my daughter and son-in-law and myself. Hopefully somewhere close to the stadium.

Can y'all help:confused:

Ethelyn
07-10-2001, 02:09 PM
Hey now I'm a REGULAR:D not a Lurker:cool:

KCTitus
07-10-2001, 02:10 PM
There's a couple of places right across the highway from the stadiums that you might be able to get into, but you better book them now.

One was the Adams Mark, and I cant remember the other.

Ethelyn
07-10-2001, 02:15 PM
Thanks. Mikhael's apartment is on the third floor, and it's gonna be hard to get my mama up those stairs (steps) on a walker. Your suggestion(s) are greatly appreciated.

RaiderCorporate
07-10-2001, 02:42 PM
Mercer:

Or the Raiders will win because:

1. Gannon, Wheatley, Garner, Brown, Rice - too much offense for defense to contain.
2. Robinson's offensive support still resides in Denver.
3. Several KC 0-3 or 1-3 and out passng series and no run blocking.
4. KC special teams still inferior.

KCJohnny
07-10-2001, 02:43 PM
I've been called a dumba$$ and was told to bite someone on this thread.

That usually happens when people are out of intellectual ammunition.

'Bye now!

KCJ

KCTitus
07-10-2001, 02:51 PM
LOL! stop by when you find get some 'intellectual ammo'.

I see you're not willing to own up to your own posts now. How sad.

See ya.

Iowanian
07-10-2001, 02:56 PM
RC,

1.If you paid ANY attention to the Chiefs in the off season, You'd notice that special teams are probably going to be our greatest improvement. Our new Punter had one of the lowest return yards in the league. the addition of Horne and other Special Teams prospects makes that one of my least concerns during the upcoming season.

2. I submit the Garber was a good pickup....and he and Wheatly won't start their "poor me, but I want the ball" pissing contest until week 3-4.

3. the addition of the washed up Jerry rice doesn't really make me that nervous......5 years ago yes, today...he's just another pRison.

4. Robinson's D is what squashed the Faiduhs. he'll do just fine at shutting down ol' noodle arm....and Al Sanders will most likely be just fine on the Offensive side of the ball.

5. Run Blocking will be fine. The additions made to the O line will improve its quickness and I think you'll see a different Chiefs running game....pulls, traps, screens...

6. Tell Gannon not to eat too much fiber before the game...I'd hate to see him have an accident when he screams the "brown noise" when He finds his wrinkled butt in a Hicks/Clemons sandwich....It would ruin my appetite.

The Bad Guy
07-10-2001, 02:56 PM
Proctor writes:

Gunther's Chiefs didn't beat Oakland at home, so off with his head. Meanwhile Dick Vermiel gets a free pass to blow the home opener against the most important rival in the Conference.

Can't you see how hypocritical that sounds?

How is this hypocritical?

Gunther walked into a situation where he basically had the entire team, and new all the personel because he was the coordinator.

Vermeil is walking into a team where he isn't familiar with most of the personnel and has basically rebuilt a team in just 6 months.

Vermeil isn't getting a 'free' pass with Oakland, but I'm giving him some slack because our season isn't won or lost with a win against a team who went to the AFC championship game last year. Our season is going to be won and lost by how we react after the first game of the year whether its a win or a loss.

I could care less if the Raiders beat us by 3 or 30, Gunther got it done once against the Raiders thanks to Cris Dishman and he had 4 chances. One chance cost us the playoffs because of his ignorance with the kicking game. You send out Stoyo to kick in that situation not some barefooted CFL reject when he pooched two kicks out of bounds during regulation.

Last time I checked, Gunthers impressive first game as a head coach was against the Bears where his defense didn't force a punt in the whole first half. I'd love to find your reaction to that contest.

To sum it up, Gunther had a definite advantage over Vermeil to start because he was familiar with the personnel and was a coordinator in the organization for 4 years before he took over the head job. He didn't alter the gameplan, he stuck with the same conservative approach that Marty had for 10 years prior.

Vermeil has brought in a ton of new faces, changed coordinators and the whole philosophy that has been with this team over the last 13 years. I'm willing to cut him a little slack because of the severe transition in the first game of the year against a hated rival.

I guess your not though Proctor. And that's fine, your just looking for more reasons to hate the new look Chiefs.

Maybe Vermeil can send you a care package and you can get in his good graces if we can't pull one out against the Raiders.

KCTitus
07-10-2001, 03:07 PM
Frank: isnt it sad that you had to write all of that when it's so obscenely obvious to most?

One thing about Vermeil getting a 'free pass to blow the season opener'...

In one of John's earlier posts, the game is blown if KC doesnt just beat oakland but fails to pound them. So using 'Johnnyspeak', if KC doesnt win by more than 10 the home opener is a failure regardless. Nevermind, however, that not a single game has been played, snap been taken, nor do we know whether or not either oakland or KC will escape any unfortunate injuries between the start of camp and week 1.

The Bad Guy
07-10-2001, 03:20 PM
RaiderCorporate writesOr the Raiders will win because:

1. Gannon, Wheatley, Garner, Brown, Rice - too much offense for defense to contain.
2. Robinson's offensive support still resides in Denver.
3. Several KC 0-3 or 1-3 and out passng series and no run blocking.
4. KC special teams still inferior.

I would be worried about Rice and Brown a lot if they were 10 years younger and Gannon had something that didn't resemble a chicken arm.

Robinson still has only lost to the Gannon once in his tenure as a DC and thats when he was a Chief.

Robinson also has some pretty solid weapons on the Chiefs in Green, Richardson, DA, and Gonzalez. Griese with one arm beat the Faiders last year.

KC has drastically improved their special teams. There will be no kickoffs out of bounds to save the Raiders, nor will there be incredible punt return yards racked up because our punter can't directionally kick to save his life. We also now have one of the best kickoff return men in the game to secure solid field position.

Outside of Charlie Garner, the Raiders added about 5 cases of geritol to the lockerroom this offseason. Trace Armstrong, and Jerry Rice were players you build your team around 8 years ago.
Not in 2001.

Luzap
07-10-2001, 04:34 PM
As someone who backed Gunther as long as was possible, I find the idea that I must evaluate Vermeil on the basis of one game totally unacceptable.

I gave Gun every benefit of the doubt and continuously strove to understand what he was trying to acheive and how he was trying to get there.

Even going into the second season, I was willing to chock up his first year as 'just a first year' and hope that his learning curve had been steep.

Such was not to be.

After all of that, I'm told to evaluate an HC that already has two SBs under his belt on the basis of one game?

Luz
this is insanity...

RaiderCorporate
07-10-2001, 05:34 PM
Mercer:

As I recall several of your posts during last season predicting the demise of the Raiders and how they wouldn't make the playoffs, and how they wouldn't win the divisional title, and how they wouldn't win a game in the playoffs, and how they wouldn't get to the Super Bowl (wow, uncannily accurate)...

And here you are - again - providing convincing evidence why your chiefies will win...

Indeed, I will certainly warn Gannon, given the opportunity, to beware your fearsome team.

hawaiianboy
07-10-2001, 05:34 PM
Originally posted by NFLScoopFrank


"I would be worried about Rice and Brown a lot if they were 10 years younger and Gannon had something that didn't resemble a chicken arm."

Yep, they're washed up..... Tim Brown hasn't hurt you recently...... unless, of course, you count last year..... How sound do you think Pat Dennis and Eric Warfield will sleep the night before the game?.... I'll see your "chicken arm" and raise you one peg leg....
==========
==========

"Robinson still has only lost to the Gannon once in his tenure as a DC and thats when he was a Chief."

Did he bring Trevor Pryce, Al Wilson, and John Mobely with him?...
==========
==========

"Robinson also has some pretty solid weapons on the Chiefs in Green, Richardson, DA, and Gonzalez. Griese with one arm beat the Faiders last year."

Griese's one arm also handed off to some good backs behind a damn good line.... Baskerville Holmes doesn't exactly cause me to hit the Prozac bottle... and every year we hear about TRich getting his shot.... I'm starting to view him as a Chief urban legend....
==========
==========

"KC has drastically improved their special teams. There will be no kickoffs out of bounds to save the Raiders, nor will there be incredible punt return yards racked up because our punter can't directionally kick to save his life. We also now have one of the best kickoff return men in the game to secure solid field position."

Didn't we already hear some of this last year during the "Saurbraun is our saviour" campaign?.... Raider fans know a little about Frank Ganz Jr.'s "abilities"... He rode the short bus out of Oakland sitting right next to Willie Shaw...[i]
==========
==========

"Outside of Charlie Garner, the Raiders added about 5 cases of geritol to the lockerroom this offseason. Trace Armstrong, and Jerry Rice were players you build your team around 8 years ago.
Not in 2001."

[i]Who's building around Armstrong and Rice?.... They're pieces to the puzzle... We always rotate our DE's... Trace will play the same role as he did last year when he was "too old".... Somebody better tell these guys that the date printed on their birth certificate is more important than what they bring to the locker room and how they perform on the field... Besides, if we run out of Geritol, we can always hit VD's or Crockett's stash

hawaiianboy
07-10-2001, 05:41 PM
Originally posted by Luzap


After all of that, I'm told to evaluate an HC that already has two SBs under his belt on the basis of one game?
===========

I hear he spent alot of years in therapy to try and forget the first SB.... Folklore has it he'd wake up screaming Matusak's name nightly.....
==========
Luz
this is insanity...

Ain't it always?

KCJohnny
07-10-2001, 05:47 PM
You just handed me a fresh clip of ammo!

Gun's first game at Arrowhead was a 24-10 crushing of the DEFENDING WORLD CHAMPIONS. According to your logic, that was nearly impossible because of Cunningham's ABSOLUTE lack of headcoaching experience- it was only his second game!!!

And now, Vermiel with over 15 years of HC experience in the NFL, 2 SB appearances and facing a team (that Marty beat 18 times in 21 tries) that is clearly inferior to the World Champ Donx (donx advanced 2 games further) you still can't say that Vermiel SHOULD win.

Gun may have inherited a lot of Marty's players but it was hist first ever HC job at ANY level. Compare that to DV...

...and yet you still provide cover for the new Chiefs.

FTR: I am behind Dick Vermiel and the new Chiefs and I am predicting a sound KC victory. My original post stated that the Chiefs need to defend Arrowhead against the Raiders and that with all the "Gun-can't-carry-DV's-jockstrap" rhetoric, I am shocked at how reluctant most of you are to make a bally prediction of a KC Victory.

tsk tsk...

KCJ:confused:

KCGannonStalker
07-10-2001, 05:49 PM
Hey! PineappleBoy and Raider501(c)(3)! Either one of you have a website?

Warrior5
07-10-2001, 06:03 PM
Sick 'em, GannonStalker!

hawaiianboy
07-10-2001, 06:09 PM
Originally posted by KCGannonStalker
Hey! PineappleBoy and Raider501(c)(3)! Either one of you have a website?

Yeah, the one your mommmy paid me to put together for you: KCgannonstalkers real ID (http://www.mandyonline.com/trailersite.html)













Too bad you don't know that horse you're beating is already dead......

Thanks for playing....

Phobia
07-10-2001, 06:18 PM
That horse has been on the Delux Sofiesty515 Life Support System for 3 years, Pineapple. We are trying to kill the damn thing but it just won't trot towards the light.

Do you have any recommendations that don't involve the Goose?

hawaiianboy
07-10-2001, 06:31 PM
1) As far as I know Denise doesn't post here.... if she did, I believe this forum comes with a bozo filter to make it possible to ignore people you don't like.... I haven't heard a peep from her since the Star went down...

2) Denise irks you.... which is kinda enjoyable for me....

3) Impossible as it seems,beat us so you guys can stop living vicariously through Baltimore and the Goose...

soliday
07-10-2001, 06:47 PM
The "Defending World Champions" were 6-10 that year and lost their first 5 games while starting a virtual-rookie QB. In addition they had played the previous Monday night and had one less day to prepare for the Chiefs at Arrowhead. Big whoop.

KCTitus
07-10-2001, 07:03 PM
Well, I guess soliday beat me to it...but I should remind Proctor that the 'defending world champs' were sans a pretty significant piece of their SB cast. You might remember him, his name was Elway and, good lord, let's not forget Gun's first game. I was so embarrassed after that game.

If KC were going to play Baltimore in week 2 of this season but Ray Lewis was not their MLB this next season, I would say the same thing. My logic is consistent.

Cmon Proctor, is that the best you can do, if I gave you that ammo, it must have been water for a 25 cent squirt gun.

Im am not providing cover for anything or anyone. I refuse to make a prediction on the first game since, I cant believe I've had to say this a third time now, I have no evidence with which to base an opinion.

Obviously, you need no evidence of anything tangible and can pluck predictions of granduer out of thin air without any basis of fact. And it is for this very reason that I am taking you to task on these predictions. It's absurd to say Vermeil should win in week 1 without any idea of how the team is going to look or how the opponent is going to look.

KC has lost Slymo for the season, so far we know this will impact KC's game. What happens if KC loses Green in preseason. Does KC still stand a great of chance of victory? Of course not. How about if Oakland loses Gannon or Wheatley. Does this impact them? sure it does. Let's try to stay within the realm of reality--or at least I will.

If you really want to know what I think, which I find dubious since you have yet to read any of my posts completely or accurately, look me up in late august. K?

Till then, lets wait and see what happens--this is the same thing I said going into the 99 season.

btw, I thought you left.

KCJohnny
07-10-2001, 08:06 PM
You don't want me to leave, Titus. Look at the great copy I generate for you!

KCJ
:cool:

The Bad Guy
07-10-2001, 08:09 PM
Titus,

Prcotor always makes posts saying he will cutback on his posts and won't return for a while.

Then 20 minutes later you see a post on the board by KCJ.

Some could call him a cyber version of Dick Vermeil.

BTW Proctor, Gunthers first game came against Brian Griese who was starting his first ever game behind center for the Broncos.

Some QB retired that year for the Broncos. I think his name was Elway something.

They were also 6-10 that year. That gives you some incling how great of a win that was for Gunther.

And since when is a 14 point win a crushing?

A better question is what did Gunther do during his last game in 1999 at Arrowhead?

Oh yeah, he lost. A loss to the Raiders that cost us a divisional title.

If Vermeil's week one game was for the division, then I would be in the same boat you are. But it's not. It's the start of the journey, not the last leg.

I agree with Titus. I will make my impressions of the 2001 Chiefs after they play a couple of preseason games.

stevieray
07-10-2001, 08:38 PM
I'm glad someone else feels we might have a sleeper on our hands.

I don't think a win or loss against Chokeland defines our season...I'm just curious to know how much consistancy will we have, and what game will we know? It sure is wierd being in limbo about a team I've followed most of my life, like the rest of you. I didn't mean to put DV on the chopping block

Not having high expectations is the safe and logical way to go, but I can't help but be stoked as the season draws near. I hope the Donx and Faiders think we are 'retooling'. I'm excited, even if we suck.

Chiefs Pantalones
07-10-2001, 10:12 PM
Alright HB,

Now its time YOU took off your homer glasses and seen this OLD Raider team for what they are. To me, they are like the generic version of the Washington Redskins of 2000...alot of stars from 10 years ago.

C'mon, you got to admit that you have no shot at doing anything this year with all of those OLD bodies...

;) :D

Iowanian
07-11-2001, 09:49 AM
quote from RC, "And here you are - again - providing convincing evidence why your chiefies will win... "

Well gee whiz Einstein, If you'll look you'll see that you are on a "chiefs" board....I am a fan, It is my right and Obligation as a fan to look for postive moves and improvements in my team.

So far, I like many of the moves the Chiefs have made so far.....I didn't want to give up the #1 for Green, but its done and he is our Qb....and I like our situation better than yours in that respect...Improvements to Special Teams, changes in coaching staffs and the release of McCancer have me feeling a little enthusiastic.

Do I think the Chiefs will make the Superbowl this year? no Do I think the Raiders will? No I do hope to have a better Idea of how the team will perform after TC and the preseason...and look forward to a Victory in week one over the cowardly Faiduhs.

I understand and sympathise with your frustration with the Chiefs...after all, I'd dislike a team that Bitchslapped my team for a solid decade If I were you too....I'm glad you enjoyed your year out of the gutter.

California Injun
07-11-2001, 10:06 AM
Corporate,

I was referring to your Raiders performances in their last two AFC Championship Games;

Ravens 16 Raiders 3
Bills 51 Raiders 3

Now if you want to go WAAAAY back to the strike shortened 1982 season that's fine with me. In fact, why don't you bring out that tired mantra the Silver and Black use to spit out before the Broncos shut up your weak pieholes;

"Who was the last AFC team to win a Super Bowl?"

What next Corporate?

"Committment To Excellence?"

"Pride and Poise?"

"Who has the best MNF record?"

"Gannon is a Super Bowl quality QB?"

RaiderCorporate
07-11-2001, 02:14 PM
Mercer:

You're a chiefies fan?

I think you'll have some success seeking out chiefie postive moves and improvements this year. After the past three seasons virtually any change IS an improvement.

As mentioned previously, your predictions about chiefies or Raiders rarely come true, so I know you'll understand and sympathisize why I dismiss them, but I do encourage you to keep trying. That said, I agree you should expect your chiefies to live down to your expectations this season.

If it helps reduce the sting from recent games please relive your memories of bitchslapping as long as you like. And close your eyes, cross your fingers, click you heels together three times and say, "there's no place like home, there's no place like home..."

Iowanian
07-11-2001, 02:26 PM
Jerry Springer Hairlip.

You're right about one thing..."There is no Place like home"....to Beat the Faiduhs in Week one....

The past three seasons haven't been our strongest....The funniest part of that is that 2 years ago, the Chiefs weren't that great and the only reason the Faiduhs had a cool chance in Hades at the Playoffs was because of a friggin Dumther mistake and dimestore kickoff specialist.....GO ahead and yuck it up...The Faiduhs are about a year away from the team bus being used for site seeing excursions and bingo tournaments in Florida....The Faider stadium could be appropriately renamed the "Geritol Dome".

You might want to pass this site on to your QB.
http://howstuffworks.lycos.com/physics-of-football1.htm
This site might come in handy when Janikowsi tries slipping some more date rape drugs to a coed....before he ends up in the Polish Winter Football League.
http://encarta.msn.com/find/Concise.asp?ti=0515C000

Any ideas which city Al will move to next time the stadium is empty for the last half of the season?


~must be bad to have to wear a kevlar vest instead of a jersey to home games.

CanadaKC
07-11-2001, 03:12 PM
This thread begs the question: Should the Chiefs falter out of the gates, let's say 2-5 (looking at the schedule could very well be a possibility), do you actually hope that the team continues its losing ways so as to land a high-pick stud player in the draft for the first time in many, many years?

If Vermeil's system looks promising this year, but didn't quite gel because too many pieces are still missing (as we've discussed ad nauseum), then I would have to say I'm all for a brutal season if we struggle early, although that's a very tough pill to swallow for us Chief fans. I just worry that such a season could impact on
Gonzo (also discussed a lot) where he wants to play after this season. But we all know that KC is football heaven, and I think
he knows that:D

milkman
07-11-2001, 03:41 PM
..... if the Chiefs have a losing record because of a lack of talent.
If the team gives 100% effort every game, and losses aren't due to piss poor coaching, I can live with that.

That being said, I think the team has some talent, and with good coaching can be a 9 win team.

I can't support the idea of losing just to garner a high draft spot.

The team's goal should be win as much as possible, improve with each game, and gain chemistry, confidence and momentum going into the '02 season, when they will have a #1 draft pick and cap space to make impact additions.

RaiderCorporate
07-11-2001, 04:23 PM
Injun:

You didn’t qualify your statement to include only the last dozen years. That’s fine; next time I’ll know better. But why would you assume anyone would automatically know you were using incomplete information?

I suppose you know many other mantras as well so please enlighten me what are they? Do you have any good chiefie ones?

Mercer:

You watch Springer? Why is that not surprising?

Actually, Roy Toy, 2 years ago the Raiders were already eliminated from playoff contention when they walked into narrowhead and persuaded your scared-to-win team into accepting a raincheck for further playoff possibilities. This, as it turned out, was easier done than said, as your women began wearing bibs to protect their jerseys from whatever they started choking up late in the second quarter. Maybe two seasons later they’ll stop choking and do something different. Maybe not.

How upset will you be if some old men come to your house and beat your team like a drum, again?

Iowanian
07-11-2001, 04:28 PM
You are such a tool, i don't wish to waste more callories responding....

~you should really get the cranial-rectal inversion checked out.

RaiderCorporate
07-11-2001, 05:04 PM
Mercer:

Another of your typical signoffs, performed with aplomb - almost...

I'll manage without you. Thanks for sharing.

KCTitus
07-11-2001, 05:39 PM
"scared-to-win team" - That's a good analogy for the Gun led teams.

milkman
07-11-2001, 07:36 PM
Scared to win would describe the Marty- led Chiefs better than Gun's.

Too stupid to win would fit Goonther's Chiefs far better.