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BigRedChief
11-29-2007, 05:25 AM
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/2007-11-28-nfl-network-cover_N.htm

By Michael McCarthy, USA TODAY
Count Wisconsin Gov. Jim Doyle among the millions of fans frustrated they can't watch Green Bay play Dallas Thursday night in one of the biggest NFL games of the year.

That's because the Governor's Mansion in Madison doesn't get the NFL Network.

Outside of local broadcasts in Green Bay and Milwaukee, most Wisconsin residents won't get to see their 10-1 Packers play the 10-1 Cowboys because the state's two major cable operators Charter Communications and Time Warner Cable don't offer the league-owned network.

Doyle's son Gus doesn't know it yet, but the governor will be visiting him about 7 p.m. CT to watch the game on DirecTV, which carries the NFL Network.

Fans complaining about not being able to see the game is "something I'm hearing about a lot," Doyle says. "I share their frustration."

Similar viewing rearrangements will play out in Texas and across the USA on Thursday night as football fans scramble to find a relative, friend, bar or restaurant with access to the NFL Network, available to less than 40% of TV homes.

It all reflects how fans of the nation's most popular televised sport have become pawns in a marketing dispute between the NFL which is pressing cable companies to carry its fledgling network as a basic offering and cable operators who have refused to do so or made the network part of sports programming packages that typically cost viewers an extra $5 to $8 a month.

The NFL, which built its popularity and its considerable wealth by making games widely available on free TV, turned up the heat on cable operators such as Time Warner, Comcast and Charter during the second half of the 2006 season, when it began showing regular-season games on the NFL Network.

But the 4-year-old network has never carried a game that meant as much as the Packers-Cowboys contest. The game at Texas Stadium in Irving will feature two of the league's marquee franchises battling for the NFC's best record and the inside track to home-field advantage in the NFC playoffs.

By putting such a big game on its own network rather than giving it to Fox, which is the second year of a six-year deal in which it's paying the NFL $712 million annually to air NFC regular season and playoff games, plus two Super Bowls the league is taking a big marketing gamble.
Because of the NFL Network's limited reach, the Packers-Cowboys game will be lucky to generate an audience one-fourth the size it would draw on Fox.

In essence, the NFL is wagering its product is popular enough that football fans will see cable companies as the bad guy, and demand the companies offer the league's network. To try to stoke such action by fans, the NFL has been airing radio ads this week, calling on cable operators to offer the NFL Network in basic programming packages. The cable companies have fired back in their own ads.

The the NFL Network media war has been particularly hot in football-mad Texas. This week, Cowboys coach Wade Phillips was featured in taped radio ads, urging fans in San Antonio and Austin to "sack" Time Warner and switch to satellite TV, (presumably) so they could watch the team's two games on the NFL Network this year.
Some fans have taken sides in the standoff between the NFL and cable operators, but many blame both.

The anger seems to be building as more fans realize they won't be able to watch Thursday night's game, which has the marks of a classic matchup in prime time, including a duel between the Packers' legendary quarterback, Brett Favre (http://fantasyfootball.usatoday.com/content/player.asp?sport=NFL&id=1744), 38, and Dallas quarterback Tony Romo (http://fantasyfootball.usatoday.com/content/player.asp?sport=NFL&id=2730), 27, who grew up in Wisconsin and is emerging as one of the NFL's new stars.
Ed Jablonski of Wausau, Wis., blames cable companies such as his own provider, Charter, for making many fans miss the big game. "I'm very upset about this. It's not fair," says the 82-year old Packers fan. "Why is that these monopolies can do this to us?"

Tony Minnick, a 40-year-old Cowboys fan from Philadelphia Eagles country in Manheim, Pa., says he plans to switch to DirecTV from Comcast to watch the game. Minnick predicts a "mass exodus" of other NFL fans to satellite TV.

The Cowboys are the league's top national TV draw.
Minnick believes the NFL is deliberately holding two Cowboys games hostage this year to force fans such as himself to switch TV providers. "What better way to up your subscriptions than to put on the most-watched team in the country?"

The winners so far in this fight are restaurants and bars with satellite dishes. Bubba's Sports Bar & Grill in Houston has been assuring callers that yes, Bubba's will be showing Cowboys-Packers. "We're going to be packed," predicts assistant manager Cookie Bolton.
Randy Coffman, a self-confessed "sports nut" from Harrisonburg, Va., is angry Comcast moved NFL Network from digital cable to a "sports tier" costing him an extra $5 a month. "I'm a sucker and I pay it. But I don't like it."

The 47-year-old Washington fan is worried the NFL will shift more games to its own channel, especially the most attractive matchups. He wonders whether the NFL's move is the first step toward forcing fans to pay more to watch playoff games and see the Super Bowl on a pay-per-view basis. "Next year, they'll put four or five more games on NFL Network. Ten years from now, everything will be on NFL Network. You'll need some sort of super TV, with a super satellite, to even watch the NFL."

Jeff Guertin, 33, a New England Patriots fan from Holden, Mass., is furious his cable provider, Charter, stopped offering NFL Network because of a contract dispute.
Guertin's worried he won't be able to watch his Patriots, now 11-0, possibly go for the NFL's first undefeated regular season in 35 years when New England plays the New York Giants on Dec. 29, the NFL Network's last game of the season.
When he calls Charter to complain, they tell him they're still in negotiations.

"They say, 'You'd have to pay extra for it.' I say: 'Fine, I'll give you the money right now,' " Guertin says. "But they won't let me pay."
John Miller, a spokesman for Charter's Midwest division, says it's the NFL Network "denying" fans by blacking out the game everywhere except the local markets. "Our customers want to choose whether they want NFL Network not have it forced upon them," Miller says.

Fox gets 'short end of this deal'
After four years of wrangling with cable operators, the NFL Network is available in just 43.5 million homes, or 38.6%, of the estimated 112.8 million U.S. households with televisions, according to Nielsen Media Research.
The NFL's broadcast partners, NBC, Fox and CBS, reach 99%. ESPN, which has the Monday Night Football package, is on basic cable and reaches 85.5% of homes.

The NFL Network's first game this season, Indianapolis' 31-13 victory against Atlanta on Thanksgiving night, generated an average audience of 4.21 million viewers (that's the estimated number of viewers watching at any point during the telecast), up 2.7% from the network's eight-game average of 4.1 million last season.

That number doesn't take into account fans who watched in bars, restaurants, dormitories and friends' homes.

In contrast, NBC is averaging 16.6 million viewers this season for its primetime Sunday Night Football games. Fox and CBS are averaging 16.4 million and 16.2 million for their Sunday afternoon games. ESPN is averaging 11 million forMNF

If Fox were airing Packers-Cowboys this Sunday, the game's audience likely would rival that of the Nov. 4 Indianapolis-New England game on CBS. That clash of undefeated AFC powers generated the biggest average audience for a regular-season Sunday afternoon game since 1987, 33.8 million.
Fox officials have declined to comment on the NFL's move to put the Packers-Cowboys game on the league's network.

Fox "is certainly getting the short end of this deal," says Paul Swangard, managing director of the University of Oregon's Warsaw Sports Marketing Center. "If I'm Fox, I'm wondering exactly what I'm paying for" with more than $700 million a year in broadcast rights fees.
'It's not a level playing field'
NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell says the league is determined to use games to help build its network, and blames the current controversy on a double-standard by cable operators.

For example, Goodell said during a conference call on Nov. 20, Comcast gives wide distribution to its own Versus and Golf Channel networks while shunting the NFL Network to a "sports tier" of programming that costs customers an extra $5 a month. "It's not a level playing field," he said. "We are fighting to be treated like their own channels."
David Cohen, executive vice president of Comcast, says it's the NFL that makes the rules on what fans can watch in different cities.
It's the NFL that tore up its own distribution model by taking "these eight games off free broadcast television and to try to enrich themselves at the expense of their fans by creating a multi-billion dollar asset called the NFL Network."

Cowboys owner Jerry Jones believes games such as Thursday's showdown give the NFL Network the leverage to do an end run around cable. Jones, head of the league's NFL Network committee, has been barnstorming the country, urging fans to cancel service from cable operators that refuse to carry the channel or that charge extra for it and turn to satellite or cable TV companies that offer the network.
Cable operators, meanwhile, remain defiant.

The number of Time Warner customers disconnecting their service because of the absence of the NFL Network has been "insignificant," says chief programming officer Melinda Witmer, whose company has 14.6 million subscribers in 33 states, including Texas and Wisconsin.
If NFL Network wants a slot on Time Warner's cable systems, it will have to settle for having the network placed in a sports programming package or having games shown on a pay-per-view basis, she says.
"There's a lot of football on broadcast, on ESPN," Witmer says. "Our customers say they're seeing enough football."

How crazy has the fight between the NFL and cable operators become?
The NFL can't watch its own channel on cable TV at its New York headquarters. Time Warner serves the neighborhood, and because Time Warner doesn't carry the NFL Network, the league gets its channel through DirecTV.

Similarly, when Giants quarterback Eli Manning (http://fantasyfootball.usatoday.com/content/player.asp?sport=NFL&id=1657)'s parents stayed in Manhattan on Thanksgiving, they had to visit his house in New Jersey to watch their son Peyton, the quarterback for the Colts, play that night on the NFL Network.

Complicated decision
All NFL Network games also are shown on broadcast TV in the cities of the home and visiting teams, as long as the games are sold out 72 hours in advance. The Cowboys-Packers game, for example, will air on free TV in Green, Bay, Milwaukee and Dallas.

Those exceptions don't do much for NFL fans across the nation.
Tony Lipari, a Buffalo Bills fan from Rochester, N.Y., warns that the more games the NFL moves to a channel most viewers can't or won't pay for, the greater the likelihood fans will choose to watch college football or other sports instead of pro football.

It's easy for the Cowboys' Jones to tell fans to fire their cable operators, says Doug Morris, a Kansas City Chiefs fan from Lee's Summit, Mo. The reality is that many consumers also get their Internet and phone service from their cable companies, he says, and cancelling cable TV service would jack up their other rates.

"It's kind of like baseball: The billionaires are fighting the millionaires," Morris says. "John Doe public just wants to watch the game. So work it out."

Bob Dole
11-29-2007, 05:32 AM
Bob Dole pays a whopping $60 a year extra for his internet service by not subscribing to their shitty cable television offering.

It was actually pretty entertaining to inform some of the gloating Dallas fans Tuesday morning that they wouldn't be able to watch their Boys on tv. You would think such hardcore, dedicated fans would have realized that fact without some lowly KC fan pointing it out.

Bacon Cheeseburger
11-29-2007, 06:11 AM
the NFL is wagering its product is popular enough that football fans will see cable companies as the bad guy
**** you, NFL.

Skip Towne
11-29-2007, 06:17 AM
**** you, NFL.
Or not

Count Zarth
11-29-2007, 06:20 AM
So nice that we live in America.

jjjayb
11-29-2007, 06:22 AM
Or not

Of course not. The only reason your company still exists is because of it's BS exclusive deal for the NFL Ticket.

**** the NFL. I always see them putting links to where you can send a message to your cable company to complain. More people need to send the NFL letters and tell them to stick it.

scott free
11-29-2007, 06:23 AM
**** you, NFL.

No shit, "switch to unreliable satellite service or piss off".

Thanx for the options NFL, Goodell is doing some GREAT things & he's doing some HORRIBLE things...like this & regular season games in Europe.

Deberg_1990
11-29-2007, 06:27 AM
Tell Time Warner to F*** off.

Switch to Satellite or ATT UVerse!

the Talking Can
11-29-2007, 06:28 AM
ha ha Fox

Reerun_KC
11-29-2007, 06:29 AM
Who wants that shitty ass cable?

Direct TV is the way to go... 10+ years, zero problems...

Stop crying people, if you want the game, man up and ditch the 1980's cable...

cry babies!

Deberg_1990
11-29-2007, 06:32 AM
Similarly, when Giants quarterback Eli Manningparents stayed in Manhattan on Thanksgiving, they had to visit his house in New Jersey to watch their son Peyton, the quarterback for the Colts, play that night on the NFL Network.



Oh no!! Heaven forbid we make the royalty that is the Manning family adjust their holiday plans a little bit.

Skip Towne
11-29-2007, 06:32 AM
Of course not. The only reason your company still exists is because of it's BS exclusive deal for the NFL Ticket.

**** the NFL. I always see them putting links to where you can send a message to your cable company to complain. More people need to send the NFL letters and tell them to stick it.
You're full of shit. Sunday Ticket customers comprise 10% of D* subscribers.

BigRedChief
11-29-2007, 06:35 AM
Tell Time Warner to F*** off.

Switch to Satellite or ATT UVerse!And then what do I do for an ISP? Get DSL? Increase my ISP bill because I want to see the NFL games?

I've had 2 outages in my 10 years with Time Warner cable.

Satelletite can't touch the uptime of cable nor its bandwidth. I see no need for me to get rid of cable, put in a dish and install a new DSL line just because I want the NFL network.

What's going on here and it's not mentioned in the article is that big cable is pissed at the NFL for giving the exclusive NFL ticket to Direct TV. They are paying the NFL back for that.

Easy to fix. When the exclusive deal runs out with Direct TV you allow cable to sell the package also. In the meantime put the NFL Network on the frigging cable package somewhere for crissakes.:banghead:

Bacon Cheeseburger
11-29-2007, 06:39 AM
Who wants that shitty ass cable?

Direct TV is the way to go... 10+ years, zero problems...

Stop crying people, if you want the game, man up and ditch the 1980's cable...

cry babies!
**** you too dickwad. I'll be damned if I'm going to spend several hundred dollars more a year for satellite service just to get a few more football games. It just so happens that my "shitty ass cable" is adequate for my television viewing habits.

Stewie
11-29-2007, 06:44 AM
Why would I want to watch a good football game? I am a Chiefs' fan after all.

Nzoner
11-29-2007, 06:46 AM
The 47-year-old Washington fan is worried the NFL will shift more games to its own channel, especially the most attractive matchups.


C'mon,these aren't NBC flex games,when the schedule was put together would anyone have predicted the Cowboys and Packers to both be sitting at 10-1?On the other hand I'm sure at one time the Indy/Falcons game looked quite attractive,that is until Vick found himself in trouble.

Count Zarth
11-29-2007, 06:49 AM
Somewhere in Africa children are starving.

Otter
11-29-2007, 06:53 AM
This same situation is very similar to how the NHL collapsed upon itself a couple years ago. I really, really hope it happens to the greedy ****s running the NFL as well.

Reerun_KC
11-29-2007, 07:04 AM
**** you too dickwad. I'll be damned if I'm going to spend several hundred dollars more a year for satellite service just to get a few more football games. It just so happens that my "shitty ass cable" is adequate for my television viewing habits.


I understand Bugeater, My grandparents and thier friends like Cable as well.. Most old people dont watch sports anyway...

Nzoner
11-29-2007, 07:07 AM
Having DTV I don't know what it feels like to not be able to see this game,however,I'd have to think if I couldn't it would be a great reason to head to a sports bar for an evening.

C-Mac
11-29-2007, 07:35 AM
FWIW...Dish Network also has NFL Network.

BigRedChief
11-29-2007, 07:42 AM
FWIW...Dish Network also has NFL Network.
Arn't Dish and Direct TV owned by the same company now?

Skip Towne
11-29-2007, 07:43 AM
Arn't Dish and Direct TV owned by the same company now?
No

BigRedChief
11-29-2007, 07:47 AM
No
So why do they both have the NFL Network now?

Skip Towne
11-29-2007, 07:52 AM
So why do they both have the NFL Network now?
Because both chose to buy it. It was added to Directv's basic package at no charge. I think the same is true for Dishnotwork.

StcChief
11-29-2007, 08:00 AM
Only dish issues are heavy rain storms.

BRC is right ....Cable should stop their war with NFL.

their missing revenue now for nfl network. they see it as small most likely...

the sunday ticket deal will run out

Molitoth
11-29-2007, 08:06 AM
Bugeater have you researched dish prices?

I switched from paying Time Warner $110 a month for digital cable to Dish network at $30 a month. Plus another $30 to the cable company for internet. Cable companies are ripping people off.

Archie F. Swin
11-29-2007, 08:09 AM
I'm gonna hold out on this satellite stuff...20 years ago the dishes were like 10' in diameter, now they're what 15"?
I'll wait until I can just stick one in my hairline and pump the imagery into my noggin.

Misplaced_Chiefs_Fan
11-29-2007, 08:13 AM
When Comcast took the NFL network to their paid tier, that's when I jumped to Verizon FIOS.

Better computer service than cable.
Better TV with more channels and better picture than cable.
Land line stayed the same.
NFL Network part of the basic package along with all ESPN channels (22 sports channels all together).
Cheaper billing each month.

Comcast has lost six customers in our neighborhood in the past two months and more are looking at switching to FIOS because of Comcast's rates and lack of responsive service. I know Comcast has been calling trying to get me to switch back. I just laugh a lot before hanging up.

dj56dt58
11-29-2007, 08:19 AM
who cares? watch it online for free

scott free
11-29-2007, 08:26 AM
Bugeater have you researched dish prices?

I switched from paying Time Warner $110 a month for digital cable to Dish network at $30 a month. Plus another $30 to the cable company for internet. Cable companies are ripping people off.

Right now i'm getting HSI & a full cable package for $58 a month & i dont have to worry about rain, snow or upper-atmospheric conditions either.

Those who have little or no probs with satellite are the minority.

Phobia
11-29-2007, 08:27 AM
Because both chose to buy it. It was added to Directv's basic package at no charge. I think the same is true for Dishnotwork.

That's actually not true. I have DTV's basic package and I don't get NFL Network.

Brock
11-29-2007, 08:34 AM
who cares? watch it online for free

How?

BigRedChief
11-29-2007, 08:35 AM
How?
No way legally. But he may be talking about the nfl.com/live site that is going to have in game cut ins etc.

Nzoner
11-29-2007, 08:39 AM
I see where ESPN2 is advertising to stay with them during the game for up to the minute comments with what's going on in the game.

BigRedChief
11-29-2007, 09:54 AM
That's actually not true. I have DTV's basic package and I don't get NFL Network.
So I won't be coming over to your house tonight.:hmmm:

Brock
11-29-2007, 09:58 AM
No shit, "switch to unreliable satellite service or piss off".

Thanx for the options NFL, Goodell is doing some GREAT things & he's doing some HORRIBLE things...like this & regular season games in Europe.

I doubt Goodell's got anything to say about it. This is a bunch of billionaires arguing with other billionaires over how many pennies they get to keep.

jjjayb
11-29-2007, 02:03 PM
Bugeater have you researched dish prices?

I switched from paying Time Warner $110 a month for digital cable to Dish network at $30 a month. Plus another $30 to the cable company for internet. Cable companies are ripping people off.


$110 a month? Are you kidding me? Where in the hell do you live? the north pole? I get cable, phone and internet for that price.

jjjayb
11-29-2007, 02:06 PM
Right now i'm getting HSI & a full cable package for $58 a month & i dont have to worry about rain, snow or upper-atmospheric conditions either.

Those who have little or no probs with satellite are the minority.

I switched back to cable for that reason. Even the hint of bad weather would cause me to lose signal.

FAX
11-29-2007, 02:08 PM
I don't understand.

1. The NFL is only showing this game on their network.
2. Not all cable companies carry the NFL network.

Is this right?

FAX

Skip Towne
11-29-2007, 02:19 PM
I don't understand.

1. The NFL is only showing this game on their network.
2. Not all cable companies carry the NFL network.

Is this right?

FAX
Yes. The NFL and some of the larger cable companies are fighting over whether the cable companies should buy NFLN and where they should put it. The NFL wants it in the basic package (like it is on Directv and Dishnotwork) and the cable companies want it on a sports or premium tier. They are suing each other and even petitioning congress over it.

HC_Chief
11-29-2007, 02:21 PM
Entertainment service providers are f***ed. I can't wait for the day when a startup company offers TRUE pay per view programming... presents you with a list of channels you can choose from and subscribe-to, eschewing all the other "basic/tiered" crap.

You know what? I don't f***ing want HBO. I don't want Lifetime... or Oxygen... or Bravo... or 90% of the crap I have on the cable box now; but I HAVE to have those channels if I want the package deal (internet/phone/Digital). I would rather just choose 10/15 channels (since that's all I watch anyway) and pay for JUST THOSE CHANNELS.

One of these days an entrepreneur will have the sense to create that service.

Skip Towne
11-29-2007, 02:22 PM
Also, the NFL can't get their own network (NFLN) at their offices because they are served by a cable company who doesn't carry it. They had to put up a D* dish to get it.

FAX
11-29-2007, 02:22 PM
Yes. The NFL and some of the larger cable companies are fighting over whether the cable companies should buy NFLN and where they should put it. The NFL wants it in the basic package (like it is on Directv and Dishnotwork) and the cable companies want it on a sports or premium tier. They are suing each other and even petitioning congress over it.

Ah. Thanks, Mr. Skip Towne.

It costs extra this year on Comcast. I don't remember how much, though. I think it's 5 bucks a month or so.

FAX

Bill S Preston
11-29-2007, 03:19 PM
If people care so much, just go to a sports bar and watch it.

chasedude
11-29-2007, 03:29 PM
Yes. The NFL and some of the larger cable companies are fighting over whether the cable companies should buy NFLN and where they should put it. The NFL wants it in the basic package (like it is on Directv and Dishnotwork) and the cable companies want it on a sports or premium tier. They are suing each other and even petitioning congress over it.

I'd go for the NFLN on the basic cable package. They could take up the useless 15 QVC channels I have blocked to bypass that bitch Joan Rivers.

Garcia Bronco
11-29-2007, 03:30 PM
Why would you possilbly need home phone service anymore unless you have small children? Why do you need cable TV...it's just makes you lazy. Get rid of it. You'd be surpised what you can get over the air in HD.

Skip Towne
11-29-2007, 03:32 PM
Why would you possilbly need home phone service anymore unless you have small children? Why do you need cable TV...it's just makes you lazy. Get rid of it. You'd be surpised what you can get over the air in HD.
I need home phone service for my fax machine. And it depends on where you live what you can get off air.

Alec R
11-29-2007, 03:36 PM
And then what do I do for an ISP? Get DSL? Increase my ISP bill because I want to see the NFL games?

I've had 2 outages in my 10 years with Time Warner cable.

Satelletite can't touch the uptime of cable nor its bandwidth. I see no need for me to get rid of cable, put in a dish and install a new DSL line just because I want the NFL network.

What's going on here and it's not mentioned in the article is that big cable is pissed at the NFL for giving the exclusive NFL ticket to Direct TV. They are paying the NFL back for that.

Easy to fix. When the exclusive deal runs out with Direct TV you allow cable to sell the package also. In the meantime put the NFL Network on the frigging cable package somewhere for crissakes.:banghead:
Disagree.

Ive had DirecTV for 4 years. I live in Houston where it ****ing rains a lot. I had two outages in that time. 1 was during Hurrican Rita which was due not to weather but to power outage, and the other was due to some stupid freakin possum chewing through my CAT 5 cable. Ive been in severe thunderstorms and not had any issues.

That being said I hate DirecTV but no where near as much as I hate all things Cable. Cable should be provided on a choice basis. Time Warner, Cox, Comcast, should be available everywhere for everyone to choose and I would choose not to get any of them cheap, shitty ass cable companies. As bad as I hate DTV, I hate Cable Companies way way more.

Calcountry
11-29-2007, 03:45 PM
No shit, "switch to unreliable satellite service or piss off".

Thanx for the options NFL, Goodell is doing some GREAT things & he's doing some HORRIBLE things...like this & regular season games in Europe.I like my satellite service.

Calcountry
11-29-2007, 03:47 PM
You're full of shit. Sunday Ticket customers comprise 10% of D* subscribers.Nascar Hotpass rocked.

Directv is an innovator and they deserve to be rewarded. They brought me more Chiefs games, and for that I am thankful.

Calcountry
11-29-2007, 03:48 PM
I need home phone service for my fax machine. And it depends on where you live what you can get off air.Fax machines are obsolete. Haven't you heard of email?

BigRedChief
11-29-2007, 08:06 PM
Fax machines are obsolete. Haven't you heard of email?
Email is so mellinum. Gawd.:harumph:

You either text or don't communicate at all.

MadMax
11-29-2007, 08:24 PM
Entertainment service providers are f***ed. I can't wait for the day when a startup company offers TRUE pay per view programming... presents you with a list of channels you can choose from and subscribe-to, eschewing all the other "basic/tiered" crap.

You know what? I don't f***ing want HBO. I don't want Lifetime... or Oxygen... or Bravo... or 90% of the crap I have on the cable box now; but I HAVE to have those channels if I want the package deal (internet/phone/Digital). I would rather just choose 10/15 channels (since that's all I watch anyway) and pay for JUST THOSE CHANNELS.

One of these days an entrepreneur will have the sense to create that service.



Amen! That is exactly what I want too...