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Thig Lyfe
11-30-2007, 06:32 PM
Fantasy columnist Christopher Harris knows what's what.

""Three points wasn't going to help us," said Herm Edwards. Man, is he a terrible coach. I'm sure the Chiefs' leader is a fantastic mover of men, but as a late-game strategist, he's up there with Wile E. Coyote. Yes, Herm, three points was going to help you, but you don't trust your kicker, OK? But lost in going for it on fourth-and-1 while losing by three late against Oakland is the fact that before that play, the Chiefs called their first timeout to get organized and decide what to do. During that timeout, Edwards got the bright idea to challenge the spot of the preceding play. He lost the challenge, and thus lost his second timeout as well. It would've, like, come in handy later."

http://sports.espn.go.com/fantasy/football/ffl/story?page=breakdownweek13b

boogblaster
11-30-2007, 06:41 PM
Yea Mr. ESPN guy he is ...

morphius
11-30-2007, 06:53 PM
I'm waiting for some talking head to suggest that maybe someone should tell Herm that a lot of the rules have changed and have actually made it easier to pass the ball. We understand that you were a CB, so getting passed against upsets you, but it is the way the NFL wants the game to be played.

TEX
11-30-2007, 07:05 PM
Easily as bad as any clock management issue he had in Ney York - at least he's consistent.

FAX
11-30-2007, 07:06 PM
I'm waiting for some talking head to suggest that maybe someone should tell Herm that a lot of the rules have changed and have actually made it easier to pass the ball. We understand that you were a CB, so getting passed against upsets you, but it is the way the NFL wants the game to be played.

You know, I sort of glommed onto this theory, Mr. morphius, and decided to check it out.

I asked a question on the board yesterday or the day before and learned from some highly informed and intelligent Planeteer that the Tampa 2 was invented by Dungy and Lovie while Herm was there. So, that would mean it was conceived around 1996/97. Then, I looked for major NFL rule changes between 1996 and 2007 that impacted the passing game in favor of the offense. Now, maybe I didn't look in the right place and maybe I didn't find them all, but the only one I saw had to do with enforcing the 5 yard chuck rule more stringently.

Maybe someone else could find more rule changes that would affect the Cover 2 scheme, but I couldn't.

FAX

kcfanXIII
11-30-2007, 07:14 PM
the 5 yard chuck rule forces you to play a soft zone. the original tampa 2, is a more physical zone. so what edwards is running here could be at a disadvantage compared to what was run in tampa. its obvious that dungy and lovie were the brains of that outfit, so it shouldn't be suprising herm's squad is underachieving compared to the colts and bears.

morphius
11-30-2007, 07:43 PM
You know, I sort of glommed onto this theory, Mr. morphius, and decided to check it out.

I asked a question on the board yesterday or the day before and learned from some highly informed and intelligent Planeteer that the Tampa 2 was invented by Dungy and Lovie while Herm was there. So, that would mean it was conceived around 1996/97. Then, I looked for major NFL rule changes between 1996 and 2007 that impacted the passing game in favor of the offense. Now, maybe I didn't look in the right place and maybe I didn't find them all, but the only one I saw had to do with enforcing the 5 yard chuck rule more stringently.

Maybe someone else could find more rule changes that would affect the Cover 2 scheme, but I couldn't.

FAX
It isn't so much the rules that have changed, but the emphasis on the rules, like the no touching after 5 yards, the being able to ground the ball outside the pocket, PI gets called a lot more on deep balls, if you touch the QB it can be 15 yard penalties easy, the D can now be called for entering the neutral zone if it causes a OL to jump, the QB's can now line up with a headset and the OC can feed him what D he is facing. While each individual thing may not have a huge impact, the whole lot of them together I believe do.

It isn't so much the cover 2 that is my issue, I don't mind it if you actually get in the face of the WR, it is the free run off of the line that I struggle with. But that is a whole other discussion.

Chiefnj2
11-30-2007, 07:50 PM
Another coach calls down when to throw the flag. The blame is on that guy.

Anyong Bluth
11-30-2007, 07:53 PM
1869
Rutgers and Princeton played a college soccer football game, the first ever, November 6. The game used modified London Football Association rules. During the next seven years, rugby gained favor with the major eastern schools over soccer, and modern football began to develop from rugby.

1876
At the Massasoit convention, the first rules for American football were written. Walter Camp, who would become known as the father of American football, first became involved with the game.

1898
A touchdown was changed from four points to five.

1904
A field goal was changed from five points to four.

1906
The forward pass was legalized. The first authenticated pass completion in a pro game came on October 27, when George (Peggy) Parratt of Massillon threw a completion to Dan (Bullet) Riley in a victory over a combined Benwood-Moundsville team.

1909
A field goal dropped from four points to three.

1912
A touchdown was increased from five points to six.

1933
The NFL, which long had followed the rules of college football, made a number of significant changes from the college game for the first time and began to develop rules serving its needs and the style of play it preferred. The innovations from the 1932 championship game-inbounds line or hashmarks and goal posts on the goal lines-were adopted. Also the forward pass was legalized from anywhere behind the line of scrimmage.

1941
The league by-laws were revised to provide for playoffs in case there were ties in division races, and sudden-death overtimes in case a playoff game was tied after four quarters. An official NFL Record Manual was published for the first time.

1945
The inbounds lines or hashmarks were moved from 15 yards away from the sidelines to nearer the center of the field-20 yards from the sidelines.

1946
Free substitution was withdrawn and substitutions were limited to no more than three men at a time. Forward passes were made automatically incomplete upon striking the goal posts.

1948
Plastic helmets were prohibited. A flexible artificial tee was permitted at the kickoff.

1949
Free substitution was adopted for one year.

1950
Unlimited free substitution was restored, opening the way for the era of two platoons and specialization in pro football.

1951
The Pro Bowl game, dormant since 1942, was revived under a new format matching the all-stars of each conference at the Los Angeles Memorial Coliseum. The American Conference defeated the National Conference 28-27, January 14. A rule was passed that no tackle, guard, or center would be eligible to catch a forward pass.

1955
The sudden-death overtime rule was used for the first time in a pre-season game between the Rams and Giants at Portland, Oregon, August 28. The Rams won 23-17 three minutes into overtime.

A rule change declared the ball dead immediately if the ball carrier touched the ground with any part of his body except his hands or feet while in the grasp of an opponent.

1956
Grabbing an opponent's facemask (other than the ball carrier) was made illegal.
Using radio receivers to communicate with players on the field was prohibited.
A natural leather ball with white end stripes replaced the white ball with black stripes for night games.

1960
The AFL adopted the two-point option on points after touchdown.

1962
Both leagues [NFL & AFL] prohibited grabbing any player's facemask. The AFL voted to make the scoreboard clock the official timer of the game.

1966
Goal posts offset from the goal line, painted bright yellow, and with uprights 20 feet above the cross-bar were made standard in the NFL.

1967
The "sling-shot" goal post and a six-foot-wide border around the field were made standard in the NFL.

1969
The AFL established a playoff format for the 1969 season, with the winner in one division playing the runner-up in the other.

1970
The merged 26-team league [NFL] adopted rules changes putting names on the backs of players' jerseys, making a point after touchdown worth only one point, and making the scoreboard clock the official timing device of the game.

1972
The inbounds lines or hashmarks were moved nearer the center of the field, 23 yards, 1 foot, 9 inches from the sidelines.

The method of determining won-lost percentage in standings changed. Tie games, previously not counted in the standings, were made equal to a half-game won and a half-game lost.

1973
A jersey numbering system was adopted, April 5: 1-19 for quarterbacks and specialists, 20-49 for running backs and defensive backs, 50-59 for centers and linebackers, 60-79 for defensive linemen and interior offensive linemen other than centers, and 80-89 for wide receivers and tight ends. Players who had been in the NFL in 1972 could continue to use old numbers.

1974
Sweeping rules changes were adopted to add action and tempo to games: one sudden-death overtime period was added for preseason and regular-season games; the goal posts were moved from the goal line to the end lines; kickoffs were moved from the 40- to the 35-yard line; after missed field goals from beyond the 20, the ball was to be returned to the line of scrimmage; restrictions were placed on members of the punting team to open up return possibilities; roll-blocking and cutting of wide receivers was eliminated; the extent of downfield contact a defender could have with an eligible receiver was restricted; the penalties for offensive holding, illegal use of the hands, and tripping were reduced from 15 to 10 yards; wide receivers blocking back toward the ball within three yards of the line of scrimmage were prevented from blocking below the waist.

1976
Owners adopted the use of two 30-second clocks for all games, visible to both players and fans to note the official time between the ready-for-play signal and snap of the ball.

1977
A 16-game regular season, 4-game preseason was adopted to begin in 1978.

A second wild-card team was adopted for the playoffs beginning in 1978, with the wild-card teams to play each other and the winners advancing to a round of eight postseason series.

Rule changes were adopted to open up the passing game and to cut down on injuries.

Defenders were permitted to make contact with eligible receivers only once; the head slap was outlawed; offensive linemen were prohibited from thrusting their hands to an opponent's neck, face, or head; and wide receivers were prohibited from clipping, even in the legal clipping zone.

1978
The NFL continued a trend toward opening up the game. Rules changes permitted a defender to maintain contact with a receiver within five yards of the line of scrimmage, but restricted contact beyond that point. The pass-blocking rule was interpreted to permit the extending of arms and open hands.

1979
NFL rules changes emphasized additional player safety. The changes prohibited players on the receiving team from blocking below the waist during kickoffs, punts, and field-goal attempts; prohibited the wearing of torn or altered equipment and exposed pads that could be hazardous; extended the zone in which there could be no crackback blocks; and instructed officials to quickly whistle a play dead when a quarterback was clearly in the grasp of a tackler.

1980
Rules changes placed greater restrictions on contact in the area of the head, neck, and face.

Under the heading of "personal foul," players were prohibited from directly striking, swinging, or clubbing on the head, neck, or face. Starting in 1980, a penalty could be called for such contact whether or not the initial contact was made below the neck area.

1988
At the NFL annual meeting in Phoenix, Arizona, a 45-second clock was also approved to replace the 30-second clock. For a normal sequence of plays, the interval between plays was changed to 45 seconds from the time the ball is signaled dead until it is snapped on the succeeding play.

1990
The NFL revised its playoff format to include two additional wild-card teams (one per conference).

1994
There is now a 2 point conversion following touchdowns (teams now have the option of passing or running for two points or kicking for one after a TD); the starting point of all kickoffs will be the kicking teams 30 yard line (moved back 5 yards); kickoff tees used can be no more than one inch in height (previously 3 inches); a neutral zone infraction has been clarified (officials are to immediately blow their whistles whenever a defender enters the neutral zone causing the offensive player(s) directly opposite to move, this is considered a penalty on the defense. If there is no immediate reactional movement by the offensive player(s), there is no foul. (The neutral zone is defined as the space the length of the ball between the offense and defense line of scrimmage); all field goals attempted and missed when the spot of the kick is beyond the 20 yard line, the defensive team taking possession will get the ball at the spot of the kick; on any field goal attempted and missed with the spot of the kick is on or inside the 20, the ball will go to the defensive team taking possession at the 20; the 11 players on the receiving team are prohibited from blocking below the waiste during a play in which there is a kickoff, safety kick, punt, field goal attempt or extra point kick with one exception, immediately at the snap on these plays those defenders on the line of scrimmage lined up on or inside the normal tight end position can block low.

1995
The emergency (third) quarterback may now enter the game in just the fourth quarter, regardless if the other two quarterbacks are able to play. This means that if the third string quarterback enters the game, the first and/or second quarterback may re-enter, unlike the past two seasons where the emergency quarterback would only play off the first two were unable to resume play.
A receiver knocked out of bounds by a defensive player can now return to the field to make a play.
Quarterbacks may now receive communication from the bench via a small radio transmitter in their helmets. This proposal was originally run on a test basis last year during the pre-season, but was scrapped.

1996
The five-yard contact rule will be enforced more stringently.
Hits with the helmet or to the head by the defender will be flagged as personal fouls and subject to fines. This is being done to protect the offense, particularly the quarterback.

1997 When a team fakes a punt and throws the ball downfield, pass interference calls on the two outside defenders who are actually trying to block a coverage man from getting downfield and might not even know the ball has been thrown have been eliminated.
No player may remove his helmet while on the playing field. Doing so will result in a 15-yard unsportsmanlike conduct penalty. Exceptions are during timeouts and between quarters. (The NFL has done this in an effort to "reduce taunting and overexuberant celebrations" and also "in the name of safety.")

1998
The coin toss will be called before the coin itself is tossed (this is a mid-season change).
Tinted visors are banned from players' facemasks except for medical need.
A team will be penalized immediately for having twelve players in a huddle even if the 12th player goes straight to the sideline as the huddle breaks.
A defensive player can no longer flinch before the snap to draw movement from an offensive linemen.(The Neil Smith Rule)
Instant Replay was turned down again.

1999
Instant replay returns with a challange system.
Clipping is now illegal around the line of scrimmage just as it is on the rest of the field.

2000
Instant replay renewed with the same rules.
Celebrations limited to one player. Fines will be assessed for celebrations by two or more players.
Off-Field supervisory titles elminated, preventing coaches from changing teams without becoming head coach, or "in cases where it's written into individual contracts."
Off-Field consolidation of the sport's internet presence into NFL.com. Teams would evenly split the proceeds.
Anyone wearing an eligible number (1-49 and 80-89) can play at quarterback without having to check in with the referee.

2001
Instant replay renewed for three years with the same rules.
Fumble recoveries will be awarded at the spot of the recovery, not where the player's momentum carries him.
Protecting the passer will be emphasized even more.
Taunting rules will be tightened, with 15-yard unsportsmanlike-conduct penalties flagged.
Bandannas and stocking caps are out, but skullcaps with the team colors and logos are OK.

2002
A player who touches a pylon remains in-bounds until any part of his body touches the ground out-of-bounds; continuing-action fouls now become dead-ball fouls and will result in the loss of down and distance; any dead-ball penalties by the offense after they have made the line to gain will result in a loss of 15 yards and a new first-and-10 series; the act of batting and stripping the ball from player possession is legalized; the chop-block technique is illegal on kicking plays; it is illegal to hit a quarterback helmet-to-helmet anytime after a change of possession; after a kickoff, the game clock will start when the ball is touched legally in the field of play; the two-minute exception is eliminated; inside of two minutes, the game clock will not stop when the player who originally takes the snap is tackled behind the line of scrimmage.

2003
Officials will be kept together as a single crew during the playoffs. This is a change from past seasons when "all-star" officiating crews worked the post season.


Just a quick hit list of what I could find. NFL is definately favoring a more open passing attack in the fast

FAX
11-30-2007, 08:05 PM
It isn't so much the rules that have changed, but the emphasis on the rules, like the no touching after 5 yards, the being able to ground the ball outside the pocket, PI gets called a lot more on deep balls, if you touch the QB it can be 15 yard penalties easy, the D can now be called for entering the neutral zone if it causes a OL to jump, the QB's can now line up with a headset and the OC can feed him what D he is facing. While each individual thing may not have a huge impact, the whole lot of them together I believe do.

It isn't so much the cover 2 that is my issue, I don't mind it if you actually get in the face of the WR, it is the free run off of the line that I struggle with. But that is a whole other discussion.

Exactly, Mr. morphius. Those were the types of rules (or rule emphasis) I was looking for. The theory was that Herm's defensive strategy had been nullified somewhat by the NFL's desire to increase scoring as reflected by rule changes in favor of offensive production. In other words, Herm's defensive approach wasn't current with the NFL trend line.

The problem I ran into was that I couldn't uncover any rule changes since the invention of the Tampa 2 (1996/97) significant enough to validate the theory. As I said, perhaps my research was flawed and I just didn't know where to look, but I couldn't find any rule changes (or emphasis) that would substantiate the claim that Herm's defensive approach is outdated from the perspective of more recent rules or how the officials are expected to interpret those rules.

What can be said, however, is that his "offensive" strategy does not appear to take full advantage of those rule changes. I think we've all seen enough to understand that we're not going to make a living off PI calls, for example.

FAX

FAX
11-30-2007, 08:08 PM
"The five-yard contact rule will be enforced more stringently."

That was the only one I could find that, in my view, might directly impact how one might run the Tampa 2, Mr. Cocina_Basement. And, that was in 1996. I was, frankly, expecting more.

FAX

Cochise
11-30-2007, 08:15 PM
I don't really put a lot of stock into the "Marty curse", anymore.

He got to San Diego, they scored a lot of points there, and the offense was not ultra conservative.

Both of the times in the playoffs he was victimized by Kaeding, but in the Jets game they drove all the way down the field in overtime and he missed it. You can't say that Marty ought to go for the TD there, he did what any coach would have done. And against New England they did the same thing, drove with no timeouts if I remember, and set up a winning kick that Kaeding missed.

Marty eventually got a talented offense and he evolved into using it. He might have a super bowl ring if it weren't for Nate Kaeding, you could argue. (or Earnest Byner, or... well, whatever. Not to make excuses)

So how much culpability is there to the front office for his Kansas City years for not providing him with the talent on offense? Shouldn't history cut him a certain degree of slack in that light?

Marty is superior to Herm, IMO, because once he had talent available he used it. He wasn't afraid to throw the ball or anything in San Diego. The game changes, you have to change with it, and I think to some degree he did.

Deberg_1990
11-30-2007, 08:22 PM
He might have a super bowl ring if it weren't for Nate Kaeding, you could argue. (or Earnest Byner, Lin Elliott, Elvis Grbac or... well, whatever. Not to make excuses)



FYP..

Chiefnj2
11-30-2007, 08:26 PM
"The five-yard contact rule will be enforced more stringently."

That was the only one I could find that, in my view, might directly impact how one might run the Tampa 2, Mr. Cocina_Basement. And, that was in 1996. I was, frankly, expecting more.

FAX

I don't know if the changes were rule changes per se, or whether officials were instructed to call certain types of plays more stringently.

The 5 yard rule may have been in effect in 1996, but it wasn't until the Colts whined about their loss to the Pats that the league really started calling it and enforcing it.

Cochise
11-30-2007, 08:29 PM
FYP..

Those guys cost him once, and if you saw the sportscentury on "the fumble", Marty wanted to blame it on webster slaughter partially for not blocking the guy who forced it. And Byner had like 200 total yards that day too. And you know who only did it once, and elvis was just elvis, you can't expect a toddler to pilot a space shuttle.

All I know is, Marty should never end up on a waiting list for an organ transplant. He should call up Nate Kaeding and be like "You owe me."

Manila-Chief
11-30-2007, 09:08 PM
I'm waiting for some talking head to suggest that maybe someone should tell Herm that a lot of the rules have changed and have actually made it easier to pass the ball. We understand that you were a CB, so getting passed against upsets you, but it is the way the NFL wants the game to be played.

I first thought this was funny ... coz the first time I read it I thought you meant Herm is playing like they did in the days before the forward pass was allowed. It seems there is some truth in that. Yeah, he passes the ball but as a last resort.


I don't really put a lot of stock into the "Marty curse", anymore.

Marty is superior to Herm, IMO, because once he had talent available he used it. He wasn't afraid to throw the ball or anything in San Diego. The game changes, you have to change with it, and I think to some degree he did.

I agree with you regarding Marty ... remember the "chunks of yards" he desired? I tend to agree about his latest playoffs results were doomed by a kicker ... but the question I would have is ... "did he run conserative plays going down the field to just get into field position" instead of doing like DV/Brady and trying to go for it all? I don't know the answer to that question. So, I'll agree that the kicker lost those games for him.

Yep, if given a choice ... I'd choose Marty over Herm ... I think Marty will eventually learn how to win a SB. Now I'd rather have the OC down in Dallas coz I think he is bright, young, and will be an excellent NFL coach. I hope he gets a little more of the experience that he needs ... like the number of years it takes for Clark to wise up!!!!!!

milkman
12-01-2007, 10:46 AM
I don't really put a lot of stock into the "Marty curse", anymore.

He got to San Diego, they scored a lot of points there, and the offense was not ultra conservative.

Both of the times in the playoffs he was victimized by Kaeding, but in the Jets game they drove all the way down the field in overtime and he missed it. You can't say that Marty ought to go for the TD there, he did what any coach would have done. And against New England they did the same thing, drove with no timeouts if I remember, and set up a winning kick that Kaeding missed.

Marty eventually got a talented offense and he evolved into using it. He might have a super bowl ring if it weren't for Nate Kaeding, you could argue. (or Earnest Byner, or... well, whatever. Not to make excuses)

So how much culpability is there to the front office for his Kansas City years for not providing him with the talent on offense? Shouldn't history cut him a certain degree of slack in that light?

Marty is superior to Herm, IMO, because once he had talent available he used it. He wasn't afraid to throw the ball or anything in San Diego. The game changes, you have to change with it, and I think to some degree he did.

What I know us that Marty always finds a way to allow the opposition to stay in the game in the playoffs, and finds a way to lose the game in the end.

That is his curse.

As for the front office culpability, Carl has always given his HC a huge voice in the draft, and Marty was a terrible talent evaluator.

Chiefs_5627
12-01-2007, 10:51 AM
Another coach calls down when to throw the flag. The blame is on that guy.



Agreed, not saying Herm is a genius but someone has to tell him to throw the red flag, he doent have a replay monitor on the sidelines.

Calcountry
12-01-2007, 11:01 AM
Another coach calls down when to throw the flag. The blame is on that guy.Exactly! The blame is nover EVER on Herm.

Deberg_1990
12-01-2007, 11:05 AM
Carl has always given his HC a huge voice in the draft, and Marty was a terrible talent evaluator.

So who were Marty picks and who where Carl picks??

Any idea?

chiefsfan987
12-01-2007, 12:07 PM
What I know us that Marty always finds a way to allow the opposition to stay in the game in the playoffs, and finds a way to lose the game in the end.

That is his curse.

As for the front office culpability, Carl has always given his HC a huge voice in the draft, and Marty was a terrible talent evaluator.


I don't really think Marty has a curse so much as he's had a lot of players choke at critical moments in playoff games. Eventually, just like good ole Roy Williams who couldn't win the big game he'll get there and I'll be happy for him when he does.

Thig Lyfe
12-01-2007, 12:11 PM
Agreed, not saying Herm is a genius but someone has to tell him to throw the red flag, he doent have a replay monitor on the sidelines.

You didn't need a replay monitor to see that the play wasn't going to get overturned in a million years. If the guy upstairs really told him to throw the flag, he should have had the balls to ignore him.

morphius
12-01-2007, 12:29 PM
Of course I wonder how many coaches out there play an entire game just hoping to win it on their last drive, instead of having a substantial lead. Every time I here Herm talk about just wanting to be in it at the end hoping to make a play I just have to shake my head. 'Cause the other team can make that play just as easily as you can, and worse yet, you are asking for you offense to make a big play when training it to look for the three yard gain. I don't believe it is turned on that easily.