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View Full Version : Tony Gonzalez opens up on Herm with both barrels


Count Alex's Losses
12-02-2007, 11:04 PM
http://www.kansascity.com/sports/chiefs/story/387172.html

Chiefs cant come back against Chargers
By ADAM TEICHER
The Kansas City Star

The Chiefs lost their ability to make enough plays to win close games some time ago. They ran out of explanations shortly afterward.

Now theyre just plain out of gas. They trailed by a mere touchdown for most of the second half of Sundays game against San Diego at Arrowhead Stadium, but they might have played until midnight without getting that elusive tying score.

So they wound up losing 24-10, and the defeat pushed the 4-8 Chiefs to the brink of extinction in what passes for a race in the AFC West. Theyre officially done if they lose to the Broncos in Denver next week.

The Chiefs tried their usual formula keep things close until the fourth quarter and make the plays to win it then. It worked for them earlier in the season but again failed on Sunday when they were shut out in the final quarter for the fourth straight game.

Im tired of it and dont want to play this style of football, Chiefs tight end Tony Gonzalez said. Its not what Im into. I dont think Herm (Edwards) wants to. We want to win. Lets get it over with. I dont want to keep the game close until the second half because were a second-half team. Thats bull. Lets just go out there and win a football game.

Lets get rid of that stress. Im tired of it. Im sitting on the sideline thinking, Here we go again. You cant help but let those thoughts creep into your mind.

That crisis of confidence was evident Sunday. Their seven-point deficit for most of the second half felt to them like a lot more.

Things got so bad for the offense that its only touchdown was scored by defensive end Jared Allen, who played on the goal-line ostensibly for blocking purposes. And Allen had to make a great catch of Damon Huards fade pass to do it.

When youre desperate, Edwards said, you do desperate things.

Edwards hasnt been desperate enough to change his philosophy on how to win. He defended it again Sunday, saying its the only way the Chiefs have a chance.

We made plays (to win some early-season games), Edwards said, referring to wins over Minnesota, San Diego and Oakland, all games the Chiefs salvaged in the fourth quarter. Thats how we won.

We have to play a certain way. We try to do that to protect the quarterback and make sure we can throw the ball. You have all of these fancy ideas there at the end and there are certain things were stuck with because of how we have to play.

Thats OK. You can still win games that way. We just cant get behind like that because that just puts you in a bad, bad way.

The burden of keeping the game close fell to the defense, which again caved in. LaDainian Tomlinson rushed for 117 yards and two touchdowns in the second half.

We know theyre going to make plays, realistically, Allen said. But to (heck) with that. Our mind-set has to be that they wont make any plays. When stuff like that becomes acceptable, and all of a sudden you find yourself saying, Oh, here we go again, thats when the same (stuff) happens. Thats whats been happening.

We need to change the mind-set around here. The mind-set has got to be that this is not acceptable to lose at home. Its not acceptable to be 10-10 at halftime and lose 24-10.

The marvel regarding the Chiefs is not the five-game losing streak, their longest since 2000, or the five Arrowhead losses, most since they also lost five in 2001.

Its that with this team even with its numerous and obvious flaws they won four of five games earlier in the season.

Even then, we had some issues, guard Brian Waters said. When you look at games like Chicago and Houston, we had a couple of opportunities to come back in those games as well.

Weve started slowly in some parts of the season and now were not finishing the way we were. Really, were just trying to find a complete game.

siberian khatru
12-02-2007, 11:06 PM
:bravo:

AFT

Bump
12-02-2007, 11:07 PM
nice! TG does need to speak up a little bit!

Reerun_KC
12-02-2007, 11:08 PM
Come on Tony, lead the revolt....

Bill S Preston
12-02-2007, 11:09 PM
He's definitely regretting his decision to resign. He is a great teammate, and sometimes the best teammates have to step up and speak out when the coach is a loser. If he won't listen to you in the lockerroom, sometimes you have to go to the media.

KC Tattoo
12-02-2007, 11:10 PM
I think TG has earned the right to say whatever he damn well please. Good for him.

dirk digler
12-02-2007, 11:10 PM
Good for Tony. Though he shouldn't say Herm wants to either because Herm obviously doesn't want to.

Reerun_KC
12-02-2007, 11:11 PM
I think TG has earned the right to say whatever he damn well please. Good for him.


Earned more right then Herm ever will.... Herm hasnt earned any respect from anybody... Why should anyone respect Herm?

IF Tony gives up on Herm, that should be ther first sign that Herm needs to go...

kcfan82
12-02-2007, 11:12 PM
Tony is more valuable to the organization than Carl.

BigRock
12-02-2007, 11:12 PM
How is it "opening up" on Herm when he says "I don't want to play this style of football and I don't think Herm wants to"? Isn't that opening up on Solari?

Ari mlat
12-02-2007, 11:14 PM
Excuse my french, but.... **** HERM.

Cochise
12-02-2007, 11:14 PM
Generally, I applaud this, but today - I didn't see where Herm killed us. We got killed by poor execution on offense. They were throwing the ball a lot today, though. I thought they looked a lot less conservative this week.

88TG88
12-02-2007, 11:15 PM
I think TG has earned the right to say whatever he damn well please. Good for him.
yes

Pablo
12-02-2007, 11:15 PM
How is it "opening up" on Herm when he says "I don't want to play this style of football and I don't think Herm wants to"? Isn't that opening up on Solari?That's kind of how I read it..but I suppose I'm not a staunch Herm-Hater.

Reerun_KC
12-02-2007, 11:15 PM
How is it "opening up" on Herm when he says "I don't want to play this style of football and I don't think Herm wants to"? Isn't that opening up on Solari?


Uh no, this is Herms offense... Solari is just a martyr... Herm has been down this road a many of times. He will fire Solari and next year the offense is the same.

Same thing the NYJ fans went through...

Mr. Flopnuts
12-02-2007, 11:16 PM
How is it "opening up" on Herm when he says "I don't want to play this style of football and I don't think Herm wants to"? Isn't that opening up on Solari?


Of course. Although, Herm is next. His offensive philosophy sucks. He needs to be force fed an OC that is established, and has a history of success.

Pablo
12-02-2007, 11:16 PM
Generally, I applaud this, but today - I didn't see where Herm killed us. We got killed by poor execution on offense. They were throwing the ball a lot today, though. I thought they looked a lot less conservative this week.This is true..but Anti-Herms won't let him off the hook for losing this game. Damn him..and his inability to block or throw the ball..or catch it for that matter.

It's fairly obvious Herm has one of the most talented offenses in the league...he just can't coach. :rolleyes:

dirk digler
12-02-2007, 11:17 PM
Uh no, this is Herms offense... Solari is just a martyr... Herm has been down this road a many of times. He will fire Solari and next year the offense is the same.

Same thing the NYJ fans went through...

Yep.

I am really hoping Clark grows some balls and cleans house but I am not expecting that

Reerun_KC
12-02-2007, 11:18 PM
Generally, I applaud this, but today - I didn't see where Herm killed us. We got killed by poor execution on offense. They were throwing the ball a lot today, though. I thought they looked a lot less conservative this week.
Maybe because this offense has went through 12 weeks of Herm showing no faith or trust in them, giving them absolutely zero confidence to succeed..

I have never seen a coach bash his own team and not stand up and give them the opportunities to show faith and trust in his own team...

Herm has killed this offense single handly, not injuries.. Not one person on this offense actually believes in Herm. How could you?

Fairplay
12-02-2007, 11:18 PM
With herm as HC he should have known not to sign on with the chiefs last year.

Thig Lyfe
12-02-2007, 11:19 PM
He's definitely regretting his decision to resign.

No, I bet he wishes he resigned. He's smacking his forehead for re-signing, though.

Count Alex's Losses
12-02-2007, 11:19 PM
Tony should go to Carl Peterson and tell him he's going to retire RIGHT NOW unless the Chiefs fire Herm Edwards and all his pathetic coaches, INCLUDING THAT MORON GUNTHER, and bring in someone else. I bet that would get Carl's attention real fast. And maybe Tony could get Larry Johnson, Derrick Johnson and Jared Allen to go in with him on the deal.

dirk digler
12-02-2007, 11:19 PM
This is true..but Anti-Herms won't let me off the hook for losing this game. Damn him..and his inability to block or throw the ball..or catch it for that matter.

It's fairly obvious Herm has one of the most talented offenses in the league...he just can't coach. :rolleyes:

I look at it very simply if Herm knew going into the season that our O-Line was going to suck then it is his fault for not trying to fix it. If he didn't know then everyone should question what the **** was he looking at during practice.

tk13
12-02-2007, 11:20 PM
This thread is exactly why this board is almost unreadable anymore.

Count Alex's Losses
12-02-2007, 11:21 PM
This thread is exactly why this board is almost unreadable anymore.

You'll come around.

dirk digler
12-02-2007, 11:23 PM
This thread is exactly why this board is almost unreadable anymore.

Tk give us your take.

Also the shit we have seen from this O-Line is the same shit I saw during pre-season damn we got some stupid mother****ers running this team.

boogblaster
12-02-2007, 11:23 PM
Good for you Gonzo ... Frickin' Herm.. 60s style-ball ...

Reerun_KC
12-02-2007, 11:23 PM
This is true..but Anti-Herms won't let me off the hook for losing this game. Damn him..and his inability to block or throw the ball..or catch it for that matter.

It's fairly obvious Herm has one of the most talented offenses in the league...he just can't coach. :rolleyes:

Strange? I see where you are coming from...

But if that was the case, how come Herms teams go through this regularly and he cant keep a OC longer than 2 years?

What is the difference in our offense now, than the NYJ's offense during Herms tenure? According to my NYJ friends and games I have watched from Herms tenure there. It is the same exact offense.

The guy just refuses to change with the times, accepts zero responsibility for his team or coaching decisions, talks down to the media and fans, cant coach his self out of a wet paper sack. I just cant defend the moron.. No way no how... The guy has zero credibility and deserves no respect for throwing his team under the bus.

tk13
12-02-2007, 11:23 PM
You'll come around.
No, I won't.

Count Alex's Losses
12-02-2007, 11:24 PM
No, I won't.

Everyone has their breaking point, man. I was in Herm's corner for a long time, longer than most. I suspect you'll join our merry band when the Chiefs start out 0-2 or 1-3 again next year.

BigRock
12-02-2007, 11:25 PM
Uh no, this is Herms offense... Solari is just a martyr...
Then why did Tony specifically exclude Herm from what he was saying?

Cochise
12-02-2007, 11:25 PM
What was done today that was so bad?

Was it throwing the ball to a defensive end? Was that too conservative?

Was it the multiple trick plays we called?

Going for it on fourth down after what happened last week and giving it to the kid again? That tells Kolby Smith you believe in him.

Was it Huard throwing the ball 35 times (tied for the most attempts he's ever had in a game in his career) We had 40 attempts total today, and if you add in the 8 sacks we called almost 50 pass plays to ~20 or so running plays. Was that was too conservative?

Or was it the fact that we can't block anyone, that we are playing with a stopgap QB and about 4 stopgap players on the line?

Reerun_KC
12-02-2007, 11:27 PM
Then why did Tony specifically exclude Herm from what he was saying?
Well BigRock I dont know?

Maybe it was directed at Dick Curl and Solari?

At this point I would trust satan himself over anything Herm spewed out of him cock holster.

dirk digler
12-02-2007, 11:29 PM
What was done today that was so bad?

Was it throwing the ball to a defensive end? Was that too conservative?

Was it the multiple trick plays we called?

Going for it on fourth down after what happened last week and giving it to the kid again? That tells Kolby Smith you believe in him.

Was it Huard throwing the ball 35 times (tied for the most attempts he's ever had in a game in his career) We had 40 attempts total today, and if you add in the 8 sacks we called almost 50 pass plays. Was that was too conservative?

Or was it the fact that we can't block anyone, that we are playing with a stopgap QB and about 4 stopgap players on the line?

Only scoring 10pts.

Right now the Chiefs are averaging 14.3 pts a game. On this losing streak they are averaging 14 and 4 of those games were at home. Pathetic.

cdcox
12-02-2007, 11:29 PM
It is really self-fulfilling prophesy. Herm wants to win games in the fourth quarter, so he plays the whole game in order to make that happen. The offense just keeps getting worse and worse as he scales things back more and more. He breeds self-doubt in the offense.

Cochise
12-02-2007, 11:31 PM
Only scoring 10pts.

Right now the Chiefs are averaging 14.3 pts a game. On this losing streak they are averaging 14 and 4 of those games were at home. Pathetic.

I don't see how this game is on Herm. Everyone complained that he wouldn't throw the ball around, and with Croyle, they didn't. But he didn't kill us with playcalling today. Hell Solari's game looked more like Mike Martz today in terms of pass/run.

I don't remember seeing any kind of a call were I was like "That's herm, being conservative."

Reerun_KC
12-02-2007, 11:31 PM
It is really self-fulfilling prophesy. Herm wants to win games in the fourth quarter, so he plays the whole game in order to make that happen. The offense just keeps getting worse and worse as he scales things back more and more. He breeds self-doubt in the offense.
He has been doing that since day one!

dirk digler
12-02-2007, 11:32 PM
It is really self-fulfilling prophesy. Herm wants to win games in the fourth quarter, so he plays the whole game in order to make that happen. The offense just keeps getting worse and worse as he scales things back more and more. He breeds self-doubt in the offense.

Yep that is exactly what Tony is trying to say.

cdcox
12-02-2007, 11:33 PM
What was done today that was so bad?



It's not one day. It is cummulative since the day he got here and started telling Trent Green he has to quit taking risks with the ball. The effects are cummulative. We just keep getting worse and worse. The things that worked last year don't work this year, even after we supposedly upgraded the OL and recieving corp. That is a sign of a bad coach.

Reerun_KC
12-02-2007, 11:33 PM
I don't see how this game is on Herm. Everyone complained that he wouldn't throw the ball around, and with Croyle, they didn't. But he didn't kill us with playcalling today. Hell Solari's game looked more like Mike Martz today in terms of pass/run.

I don't remember seeing any kind of a call were I was like "That's herm, being conservative."

But that doesnt mean the players trust the HC and have confidence that he will put them in a position to succeed. Without that, the players wont give 100% for that coach.

Herm is way to negative to be a head coach. He started bashing the prior coaching staff from day one for validation... That right there shows that he is a weak minded individual.

dirk digler
12-02-2007, 11:34 PM
I don't see how this game is on Herm. Everyone complained that he wouldn't throw the ball around, and with Croyle, they didn't. But he didn't kill us with playcalling today. Hell Solari's game looked more like Mike Martz today in terms of pass/run.

I don't remember seeing any kind of a call were I was like "That's herm, being conservative."

I agree. While watching the game I thought wow they really opened up this O since Damon is the QB.

Also I think because the Chargers aren't very good against the pass it was a favorable matchup to throw the ball.

Reerun_KC
12-02-2007, 11:34 PM
It's not one day. It is cummulative since the day he got here and started telling Trent Green he has to quit taking risks with the ball. The effects are cummulative. We just keep getting worse and worse. The things that worked last year don't work this year, even after we supposedly upgraded the OL and recieving corp. That is a sign of a bad coach.
:bravo:

Your on a roll tonight!

Cochise
12-02-2007, 11:37 PM
I agree. While watching the game I thought wow they really opened up this O since Damon is the QB.

Also I think because the Chargers aren't very good against the pass it was a favorable matchup to throw the ball.

I think they are mistaken to coddle Croyle so much. Definitely. They should let him do what Damon tried to do today.

But I don't buy at all that Herm hates passing and all that. He has a different tolerance for risk than most coaches. Too low for most of our tastes including mine. But why this comment and why today? He didn't kill us today.

Call out the linemen for looking like they've quit, call out Huard for not being able to hit a receiver in the numbers... put the blame where it belongs. JMO

dirk digler
12-02-2007, 11:39 PM
It's not one day. It is cummulative since the day he got here and started telling Trent Green he has to quit taking risks with the ball. The effects are cummulative. We just keep getting worse and worse. The things that worked last year don't work this year, even after we supposedly upgraded the OL and recieving corp. That is a sign of a bad coach.

Yep also a couple of people on the radio today mentioned how they saw the Chiefs run the EXACT same pass play 4 times in the game. Now when AS was here heck he wouldn't run the exact same play in 4-5 games. This team and play calling is way to predictable.

Reerun_KC
12-02-2007, 11:39 PM
I think they are mistaken to coddle Croyle so much. Definitely. They should let him do what Damon tried to do today.

But I don't buy at all that Herm hates passing and all that. He has a different tolerance for risk than most coaches. Too low for most of our tastes including mine. But why this comment and why today? He didn't kill us today.

Call out the linemen for looking like they've quit, call out Huard for not being able to hit a receiver in the numbers... put the blame where it belongs. JMO


True Cochise, but Herm has shattered everyones confidence in the offense including the players...

To me, the way I see it, the players are losing faith in their Head coach. Not a good thing to happen for the team...

Count Alex's Losses
12-02-2007, 11:40 PM
Yep also a couple of people on the radio today mentioned how they saw the Chiefs run the EXACT same pass play 4 times in the game. Now when AS was here heck he wouldn't run the exact same play in 4-5 games. This team and play calling is way to predictable.

You know what's amazing? I can tell when we're going to run the ball 90 percent of the time based only on the formation and the pre-snap motion. It's incredible. Oh, and the Chiefs have been telegraphing the run by playing Sippio as a blocker for three weeks now. Also pathetic.

But we won't throw to Sippio. Oh no. Screw that!

KC Tattoo
12-02-2007, 11:40 PM
For the record I am not a Herm hater nor am I a Herm lover. I want to see this team grow and prosper over the next few years and think that Herm can do a good job for us with the 08 draft picks and go from there. I think he can bring us tallent that will win us games, his coaching skills have a lot to be desired though.

It's hard to see any progress becouse Brodie didn't start soon enough in the season and we were stuck with Hutard today. Huard sucked the life out of this team and this season imo, I blame Carl Peterson for that.

I want to like Herm but am having a hard time doing so with all of the losses but I did see some good things with imagination of having JA catch a TD and trying a WR pass. This team needs to grow and show heart, that is what matters now.

The sad thing is outside of the QB situation the rest of the team is not progessing but degressing on both sides of the ball. This team is not getting better but worse. With only 4 games left is not enough time for Brodie to make that much differance but I can only hope with Brodie that things will start to improve and quickly.

I don't know what to think right now.

dirk digler
12-02-2007, 11:42 PM
I think they are mistaken to coddle Croyle so much. Definitely. They should let him do what Damon tried to do today.

But I don't buy at all that Herm hates passing and all that. He has a different tolerance for risk than most coaches. Too low for most of our tastes including mine. But why this comment and why today? He didn't kill us today.

Call out the linemen for looking like they've quit, call out Huard for not being able to hit a receiver in the numbers... put the blame where it belongs. JMO

I think like cdcox said it is just the cumulative effect of holding back the offense that they have 0 confidence right now.

Also I just don't believe Herm prepares this team good enough and it shows on game day.

siberian khatru
12-02-2007, 11:42 PM
I know tk13 and a few others around here still believe. They're patient. They think if we give it another year or two, we'll see progress and things will turn around. We'll get a winning record, get a playoff game, earn playoff experience, build on that, take the next step, etc.

Who knows, maybe they're right.

But I just don't have any faith in a Carl organization anymore. And I mean than in a quasi-religious way -- I have lost my faith. Not my fanhood -- I still follow the team -- but I just can't give Carl and Co. the benefit of a doubt anymore.

I'll still be here, although I may be an emotional zombie through much of it. And if we do turn it around, tk13 and zouk and those guys can really rub it in and tell me they were right.

Godspeed to them. I just don't have the energy to take one more leap into the fire with Carl.

Zouk
12-02-2007, 11:42 PM
This is ridiculous. The Chiefs did everything on offense today. They play actioned, they ran spread, they threw on 1st, 2nd, and 3rd downs. They tried to run a reverse pass. People on this board were posting in the 1st half that this was the kind of play calling they had been waiting for all year.

But the offensive line cannot win 1 on 1 blocking assignments. Period. It's proven over and over again. And if your O-line can't block, there's no sequence of play calls you can come up with over the course of 60 minutes to overcome getting your ass beat physically.

This team today was starting 3 offensive linemen, 1 blocking tight end, and 1 starting receiver who will be out of football next year. They are no longer NFL caliber.

Tony G is understandably frustrated by playing around incompetence. He fights and gives 100% all the time, and his tremendous efforts have been routinely turned to **** by the rest of the offense all year. All he said is that he doesn't want to continue to play this way and he doesn't think Herm wants to either. He's right. Which is why this offseason they will dump all the leftover relics of the Vermeil era that can't play anymore, and bring in replacements.

doomy3
12-02-2007, 11:43 PM
Strange? I see where you are coming from...

But if that was the case, how come Herms teams go through this regularly and he cant keep a OC longer than 2 years?

What is the difference in our offense now, than the NYJ's offense during Herms tenure? According to my NYJ friends and games I have watched from Herms tenure there. It is the same exact offense.

The guy just refuses to change with the times, accepts zero responsibility for his team or coaching decisions, talks down to the media and fans, cant coach his self out of a wet paper sack. I just cant defend the moron.. No way no how... The guy has zero credibility and deserves no respect for throwing his team under the bus.


And how is that vaunted Jets' offense now that they finally got rid of Herm? Afterall, since he was the reason they didn't do much on O, they must have really turned it around now!

Phobia
12-02-2007, 11:44 PM
I agree with everything Cochise said on this thread. How in the heck is what TG said "opening up with both barrels"? Dumb.

Cochise
12-02-2007, 11:45 PM
I think like cdcox said it is just the cumulative effect of holding back the offense that they have 0 confidence right now.

Also I just don't believe Herm prepares this team good enough and it shows on game day.

I don't buy that confidence talk. If they didn't like the play calling, they should have sunk their teeth into this gameplan today.

They are just not good up front and it all starts up front. There's no combination of plays you can call with this QB and this offensive line that is going to equal a win most weeks.

Like someone else said, our linemen can't block one on one. Waters is the only guy on that line who is really someone you want to keep around.

It reminds me of Houston when they first came into the league. No offensive line equals 10 points a game.

doomy3
12-02-2007, 11:45 PM
You know what's amazing? I can tell when we're going to run the ball 90 percent of the time based only on the formation and the pre-snap motion. It's incredible. Oh, and the Chiefs have been telegraphing the run by playing Sippio as a blocker for three weeks now. Also pathetic.
But we won't throw to Sippio. Oh no. Screw that!


Also a tactic used by "offensive genius" Dick Vermeil and Al Saunders while we were setting offensive records. That doesn't matter.

dirk digler
12-02-2007, 11:46 PM
You know what's amazing? I can tell when we're going to run the ball 90 percent of the time based only on the formation and the pre-snap motion. It's incredible. Oh, and the Chiefs have been telegraphing the run by playing Sippio as a blocker for three weeks now. Also pathetic.

But we won't throw to Sippio. Oh no. Screw that!

You're observant I didn't even know Sippio was on the field.

They scaled back the O so much that it is way too predictable but that is what Herm wants to do and that is why I have 0 respect for him. He came to KC and said he wants a complete team but he has alienated half the team with his BS

Count Alex's Losses
12-02-2007, 11:46 PM
Also a tactic used by "offensive genius" Dick Vermeil and Al Saunders while we were setting offensive records. That doesn't matter.

What? No, it does matter. When Sippio is on the field, the only thing we called today were running plays. That's horrible.

When did the Vermeil Chiefs do that? I can't recall to be honest with you. What player?

You're observant I didn't even know Sippio was on the field.



Oh yeah, he's out there all the time. He loves to block, man! Herm's got him a blocking WR! WOO!

Reerun_KC
12-02-2007, 11:48 PM
And how is that vaunted Jets' offense now that they finally got rid of Herm? Afterall, since he was the reason they didn't do much on O, they must have really turned it around now!
Probably the same place that Herm has taken that Vaunted O we used to have here in KC...

Misery loves company...

According to ESPN, we both suck!
AFC Rankings.
14 Kansas City
15 NY Jets

doomy3
12-02-2007, 11:48 PM
What? No, it does matter. When Sippio is on the field, the only thing we called today were running plays. That's horrible.

When did the Vermeil Chiefs do that? I can't recall to be honest with you. What player?


LJ. He came out of the game all the time when we were going to throw, and everyone knew it.

Count Alex's Losses
12-02-2007, 11:48 PM
LJ. He came out of the game all the time when we were going to throw, and everyone knew it.

That's not true. Larry Johnson has pass blocked and caught tons of passes quite often in the past. Horrible example.

Reerun_KC
12-02-2007, 11:49 PM
Also a tactic used by "offensive genius" Dick Vermeil and Al Saunders while we were setting offensive records. That doesn't matter.


We had Sippio when DV and AS was here?

Strange?

doomy3
12-02-2007, 11:49 PM
Probably the same place that Herm has taken that Vaunted O we used to have here in KC...

Misery loves company...

According to ESPN, we both suck!
AFC Rankings.
14 Kansas City
15 NY Jets


But that doesn't make sense. Clearly, once Herm is out of the equation, the offense should be great. Why haven't the Jets turned it around like the Chiefs suddenly would if we had a different coach? It can't be talent, obviously.

dirk digler
12-02-2007, 11:50 PM
This is ridiculous. The Chiefs did everything on offense today. They play actioned, they ran spread, they threw on 1st, 2nd, and 3rd downs. They tried to run a reverse pass. People on this board were posting in the 1st half that this was the kind of play calling they had been waiting for all year.

But the offensive line cannot win 1 on 1 blocking assignments. Period. It's proven over and over again. And if your O-line can't block, there's no sequence of play calls you can come up with over the course of 60 minutes to overcome getting your ass beat physically.

This team today was starting 3 offensive linemen, 1 blocking tight end, and 1 starting receiver who will be out of football next year. They are no longer NFL caliber.

Tony G is understandably frustrated by playing around incompetence. He fights and gives 100% all the time, and his tremendous efforts have been routinely turned to **** by the rest of the offense all year. All he said is that he doesn't want to continue to play this way and he doesn't think Herm wants to either. He's right. Which is why this offseason they will dump all the leftover relics of the Vermeil era that can't play anymore, and bring in replacements.

I don't think you will get any disagreement on any of that zouk.

My only problem is that either Herm is stupid or incompetent if he thought this O-Line was half way decent. Either way he should be fired for it.

doomy3
12-02-2007, 11:50 PM
That's not true. Larry Johnson has pass blocked and caught tons of passes quite often in the past. Horrible example.


Are you kidding me? Now you don't remember DV pulling LJ out on passing downs???

Count Alex's Losses
12-02-2007, 11:51 PM
Are you kidding me? Now you don't remember DV pulling LJ out on passing downs???

Yes, that happened. But not all the time.

When Sippio is in the game, they run. 100 percent of the time. He plays wide receiver, but Herm has created a new position for him: Wide Blocker!

Cochise
12-02-2007, 11:51 PM
I don't think you will get any disagreement on any of that zouk.

My only problem is that either Herm is stupid or incompetent if he thought this O-Line was half way decent. Either way he should be fired for it.

There was nobody out there to get, unless you buy into a couple of tweeners that most teams didn't.

If we fired and released everyone as this board wants them to, we'd have a new coach every season and turn the roster over every other year.

dirk digler
12-02-2007, 11:51 PM
LJ. He came out of the game all the time when we were going to throw, and everyone knew it.

That is true gochiefs.

splatbass
12-02-2007, 11:52 PM
You're observant I didn't even know Sippio was on the field.

They scaled back the O so much that it is way too predictable but that is what Herm wants to do and that is why I have 0 respect for him. He came to KC and said he wants a complete team but he has alienated half the team with his BS

He scaled back the offense because they don't have the talent to run a more complicated offense.

Al Saunders couldn't win with this offensive line.

Pablo
12-02-2007, 11:53 PM
But that doesn't make sense. Clearly, once Herm is out of the equation, the offense should be great. Why haven't the Jets turned it around like the Chiefs suddenly would if we had a different coach? It can't be talent, obviously.Stop making logical deductions. It just gets in the way of the Herm-hating fest.

Not to mention, Mangini is the product of Belichick..who is nothing short of an offensive genius. Surely he'd have their O playing better than 14th in the AFC.

The only talent this team is truly, sorely lacking is offensive line play. We have Brodie starting, with Kolby Smith running the ball and TG and D-Bowe playing behind our 2005 line, we're probably in the division lead.

Reerun_KC
12-02-2007, 11:54 PM
But that doesn't make sense. Clearly, once Herm is out of the equation, the offense should be great. Why haven't the Jets turned it around like the Chiefs suddenly would if we had a different coach? It can't be talent, obviously.

Who said the Jets offense should be great?

All I said is that we are running the same offense Herm has ran his entire head coaching career, I also said that his players are losing faith in his ability to give them the confidence to succeed as a offensive unit. Herm has zero faith in "his" offense and its players.

Jayhawkerman2001
12-02-2007, 11:55 PM
now Herm needs to realize that TG is prety much all our offense has got, so he'd better work with him to satisfy him.

dirk digler
12-02-2007, 11:55 PM
There was nobody out there to get, unless you buy into a couple of tweeners that most teams didn't.

If we fired and released everyone as this board wants them to, we'd have a new coach every season and turn the roster over every other year.

How many OL did we draft this year = 1 (6th round)
How many OL did we sign in FA = 1

That tells me they weren't concerned except at LT. Obviously we need a center, guard, RT and LT.

So do you have faith in Herm and Carl to turn this team around because I sure don't?

Zouk
12-02-2007, 11:55 PM
I don't think you will get any disagreement on any of that zouk.

My only problem is that either Herm is stupid or incompetent if he thought this O-Line was half way decent. Either way he should be fired for it.

No question that thinking Welbourn and Terry/Turley were okay enough to get through the season as the starting right side was a monumental blunder. There should have been better players there. But it's hard to turn over every position in a single offseason. It'll be dealt with this offseason.

Silock
12-02-2007, 11:57 PM
I look at it very simply if Herm knew going into the season that our O-Line was going to suck then it is his fault for not trying to fix it. If he didn't know then everyone should question what the **** was he looking at during practice.

Because if he fixed the O-line, then we would have holes elsewhere, and you'd be bitching about those. Herm inherited a sinking ship. He's plugging the leaks, but it takes time.

Reerun_KC
12-02-2007, 11:57 PM
Stop making logical deductions. It just gets in the way of the Herm-hating fest.

Not to mention, Mangini is the product of Belichick..who is nothing short of an offensive genius. Surely he'd have their O playing better than 14th in the AFC.

The only talent this team is truly, sorely lacking is offensive line play. We have Brodie starting, with Kolby Smith running the ball and TG and D-Bowe playing behind our 2005 line, we're probably in the division lead.

So you are saying Mangini is an offensive genius? I dont think I would go that far.. But if you say so...

I agree with your last statement, just sad that Carl and Herm didnt have the foresight to see that 5 30 year old linemen isnt really the way to go right now... Its a pity....

Silock
12-02-2007, 11:57 PM
This thread is exactly why this board is almost unreadable anymore.

I agree. Tony didn't "open up on Herm with both barrels." He didn't even open up on him with *1* barrel. He just said that this style of football sucks and neither he nor Herm wants to play it.

Zouk
12-02-2007, 11:58 PM
Yes, that happened. But not all the time.

When Sippio is in the game, they run. 100 percent of the time. He plays wide receiver, but Herm has created a new position for him: Wide Blocker!

He is the lone wideout in 1 of the goal line packages they played on 1 snap today. You run out of goal line packages the vast majority of the time. How many snaps did he get on offense today? 2? 3?

dirk digler
12-02-2007, 11:58 PM
No question that thinking Welbourn and Terry/Turley were okay enough to get through the season as the starting right side was a monumental blunder. There should have been better players there. But it's hard to turn over every position in a single offseason. It'll be dealt with this offseason.

And you trust Carl and Herm to actually fix this?

cdcox
12-02-2007, 11:58 PM
This team today was starting 3 offensive linemen, 1 blocking tight end, and 1 starting receiver who will be out of football next year. They are no longer NFL caliber.



You can add two corners who, when they are another year older, won't be NFL starting caliber either. I don't think we'll be able to effectively replace 7 starters in one off season.

Not to mention: ? at QB, an aging Donnie Edwards, and a 4th OL, starting DT, MLB and two starting S that are all marginal.

Yes, Herm inherited a mess, but his negative attitude on offense, failure to bring in at least marginal talent to the OL, and over-use of LJ last year have made things a whole lot worse than they had to be. He's on the brink of losing the team this year. I think next year will be worse.

Silock
12-02-2007, 11:59 PM
What was done today that was so bad?

Was it throwing the ball to a defensive end? Was that too conservative?

Was it the multiple trick plays we called?

Going for it on fourth down after what happened last week and giving it to the kid again? That tells Kolby Smith you believe in him.

Was it Huard throwing the ball 35 times (tied for the most attempts he's ever had in a game in his career) We had 40 attempts total today, and if you add in the 8 sacks we called almost 50 pass plays to ~20 or so running plays. Was that was too conservative?

Or was it the fact that we can't block anyone, that we are playing with a stopgap QB and about 4 stopgap players on the line?

Stop that. Logic will get you nowhere.

Reerun_KC
12-02-2007, 11:59 PM
No question that thinking Welbourn and Terry/Turley were okay enough to get through the season as the starting right side was a monumental blunder. There should have been better players there. But it's hard to turn over every position in a single offseason. It'll be dealt with this offseason.True and one would hope....

What gets me, is if Carl is such a great GM, letting Roaf and Shields get old with zero replacements, isnt very good player management...

Silock
12-03-2007, 12:00 AM
It is really self-fulfilling prophesy. Herm wants to win games in the fourth quarter, so he plays the whole game in order to make that happen. The offense just keeps getting worse and worse as he scales things back more and more. He breeds self-doubt in the offense.

We can't run. We can't throw. We can't execute trick plays. Is it Herm's "style of offense," or is it the players not being able to execute? I'll leave it to you to decide, but I know where your bias is and what you're going to conclude, anyway.

Zouk
12-03-2007, 12:01 AM
And you trust Carl and Herm to actually fix this?

I do trust Herm, although the criticism that he undervalues O-line is a fair one based on the Jets history. The team needs to be good next year or Herm will definitely be gone. And there's no way the team will be good without a much much better O-line. We'll see.

I don't trust Carl and choose to pretend he's not really there. It helps me stay optimistic.

Pablo
12-03-2007, 12:02 AM
So you are saying Mangini is an offensive genius? I dont think I would go that far.. But if you say so...

I agree with your last statement, just sad that Carl and Herm didnt have the foresight to see that 5 30 year old linemen isnt really the way to go right now... Its a pity....No..he's the protege of an offensive genius..and should probably be more competent in that department than Herm is, but he's not.

Why? Talent. The Jets don't have it, and we sure as hell don't.

Herm was left with this sh*t when he got here. Roaf bailed. Shields bailed. Herm brought in McIntosh..mistake, playing the wrong position, but still a mistake, and they drafted Niswanger and hauled in Terry. I think the only mistake Herm really made was trusting this line to pull through and be average, so our younger guy could get some experience on a decent line. But they couldn't.

Pablo
12-03-2007, 12:06 AM
Yes, Herm inherited a mess, but his negative attitude on offense, failure to bring in at least marginal talent to the OL, and over-use of LJ last year have made things a whole lot worse than they had to be. He's on the brink of losing the team this year. I think next year will be worse.C'mon. He had two seasons to replace just about the greatest O-Line ever assembled. And who the hell else was gonna get the ball last year? Huard to Parker? Huard to Kennison? Huard to Webb?

Tony was our only viable weapon, and LJ had to run, and he wanted to, it was a contract year. He may have been over-used, but last year would have been a 5-11 type year if we hadn't run LJ as much, and CP would have imploded long ago.

dirk digler
12-03-2007, 12:06 AM
We can't run. We can't throw. We can't execute trick plays. Is it Herm's "style of offense," or is it the players not being able to execute? I'll leave it to you to decide, but I know where your bias is and what you're going to conclude, anyway.

I think it is a combination of Herm's style, players not executing and definite lack of talent on the O-Line.

2 are fixable 1 (Herm's style) is not.

tk13
12-03-2007, 12:09 AM
What? No, it does matter. When Sippio is on the field, the only thing we called today were running plays. That's horrible.

When did the Vermeil Chiefs do that? I can't recall to be honest with you. What player?




Oh yeah, he's out there all the time. He loves to block, man! Herm's got him a blocking WR! WOO!
Chris Horn.

philfree
12-03-2007, 12:10 AM
The fact is we can't block water from running up hill and the NFL these days is set up for offenses to rule. So with no blockers we are a bad football team. I don't see Gonzo as wrong and I don't see Herm wrong either(as far as game straegy is conserned). Herm blew it with our kickers and he blew it with our O line evaluation. That's on him and that's why we can't win. The loses are on him.(period)....

PhilFree:arrow:

Pablo
12-03-2007, 12:11 AM
I think it is a combination of Herm's style, players not executing and definite lack of talent on the O-Line.

2 are fixable 1 (Herm's style) is not.Players not executing is just sad. How many times this year have you seen recievers drop dead-on passes? A ton.

Kennison's old ass dropped one in the endzone for crying out loud. It's just pathetic. You can't expect much when Huard is taking the snaps and our line are 6-foot tall 300 lb. marshmallows.

I think Herm is trying to be less conservative just to show it doesn't work still. Don't get me wrong, I think he wants to win, but I'm sure he notices the outcries from players and fans alike, and tried to mix it up the past couple of weeks. And it failed miserably both times. You all asked for it, here it is. It's just as good as being conservative.

We don't possess the talent, toughness, or execution on the offensive side of the ball to put up more than 2 touchdowns a game.

Zouk
12-03-2007, 12:17 AM
You can add two corners who, when they are another year older, won't be NFL starting caliber either. I don't think we'll be able to effectively replace 7 starters in one off season.

Not to mention: ? at QB, an aging Donnie Edwards, and a 4th OL, starting DT, MLB and two starting S that are all marginal.

Yes, Herm inherited a mess, but his negative attitude on offense, failure to bring in at least marginal talent to the OL, and over-use of LJ last year have made things a whole lot worse than they had to be. He's on the brink of losing the team this year. I think next year will be worse.


0% chance Ty Law is a Chief next year. I would like to cut Surtain as well. I actually think Benny Sapp can play one corner spot, although I know others disagree. We'll bring in a mid-level free agent and draft a guy on day 1.

The over-use of LJ argument is silly, in my opinion. LT had more touches last year if playoffs are included, I believe. And his injury was a blunt force injury and not a repetitive stress injury. The over-use was a result of Michael Bennett getting hurt and there being no one else on the roster who could carry the ball. As you said, Herm inherited a mess. He got Dee Brown who fumbled something like 2 of the 5 carries he was given.

As far as Herm losing the team, I see no evidence for this whatsoever. Losing in an NFL clubhouse is never easy, but I've seen no quotes - even anonymous ones - from players bashing Herm. Do you have information that I don't?

Agent V
12-03-2007, 12:19 AM
Players not executing is just sad. How many times this year have you seen recievers drop dead-on passes? A ton.

Kennison's old ass dropped one in the endzone for crying out loud. It's just pathetic. You can't expect much when Huard is taking the snaps and our line are 6-foot tall 300 lb. marshmallows.

I think Herm is trying to be less conservative just to show it doesn't work still. Don't get me wrong, I think he wants to win, but I'm sure he notices the outcries from players and fans alike, and tried to mix it up the past couple of weeks. And it failed miserably both times. You all asked for it, here it is. It's just as good as being conservative.

We don't possess the talent, toughness, or execution on the offensive side of the ball to put up more than 2 touchdowns a game.
You're absolutely right. This is as much a personnel issue as it is a coaching issue. The combined efforts of Solari and this mediocre offense (and awful offensive line) are what's killing this team. That's why I place more blame on Carl Peterson and his poor personnel decisions. There was NO reason to promote Solari to offensive coordinator and there was NO reason to attempt to rebuild the offensive line with players like Turley. Furthermore, I do not think Herman Edward's blaring mediocrity with the Jets warranted him a job here in Kansas City.

In short, I place more blame on Carl Peterson for the spot we are in now.

Pablo
12-03-2007, 12:19 AM
0% chance Ty Law is a Chief next year. I would like to cut Surtain as well. I actually think Benny Sapp can play one corner spot, although I know others disagree. We'll bring in a mid-level free agent and draft a guy on day 1.

The over-use of LJ argument is silly, in my opinion. LT had more touches last year if playoffs are included, I believe. And his injury was a blunt force injury and not a repetitive stress injury. The over-use was a result of Michael Bennett getting hurt and there being no one else on the roster who could carry the ball. As you said, Herm inherited a mess. He got Dee Brown who fumbled something like 2 of the 5 carries he was given.

As far as Herm losing the team, I see no evidence for this whatsoever. Losing in an NFL clubhouse is never easy, but I've seen no quotes - even anonymous ones - from players bashing Herm. Do you have information that I don't?I think Sapp is a definite upgrade from what we're putting out their each week. Maybe if you stapled a Bob Evans coupon to the opposing WR's jersey they'd be more apt to stay on them, but they're just getting beat over and over. It's sad. And Pollard has been no gem at safety, he gets absolutely owned.

cdcox
12-03-2007, 12:20 AM
We can't run. We can't throw. We can't execute trick plays. Is it Herm's "style of offense," or is it the players not being able to execute? I'll leave it to you to decide, but I know where your bias is and what you're going to conclude, anyway.

I'll admit to having an anti-Herm bias. I had it before he came. I tried to keep an open mind. But, every time Herm opens his mouth and talks about his philosophy on offense, it gets more conservative and worse performing. We did this voluntarily last year in the playoff game. The offense had been semi-effective with a mix of running and downfield passing. No one forced us to revert to a 100% sideways passing game then. But we did. And we opened the season that way too. Everything I see on the field week-after-week confirms my initial suspicions about Herm.

To elaborate just a bit more:

I have a preconception about Herm.
He says something (before the first game is played by his team) that reinforces my preconception.
The offensive philosophy on the field matches what Herm said he would do.
The offense performs poorly.
Herm says something else about the offense that further reinforces my preconception.
The offensive philosophy on the field matches what Herm said he would do.
The offense performs even more poorly.

Rinse and repeat.

What would a logical person conclude from this series of events? I conclude that my initial preconception was correct.

Zouk
12-03-2007, 12:22 AM
I think Sapp is a definite upgrade from what we're putting out their each week. Maybe if you stapled a Bob Evans coupon to the opposing WR's jersey they'd be more apt to stay on them, but they're just getting beat over and over. It's sad. And Pollard has been no gem at safety, he gets absolutely owned.

I know you're right on Pollard, but I'm still not ready to give up on him. He came out as a junior, and didn't play D last year. So we're seeing baptism by fire for a very young player at a position where every error is glaring.

shyguyms
12-03-2007, 12:24 AM
Herms a bum, he shouldn't be coaching in the NFL period.
Im *****ing done with this team til changes are made.

Pablo
12-03-2007, 12:24 AM
I know you're right on Pollard, but I'm still not ready to give up on him. He came out as a junior, and didn't play D last year. So we're seeing baptism by fire for a very young player at a position where every error is glaring.Oh, I'm not giving up on him yet. He makes big plays sometimes..he's the next Greg Wesley in my opinion, but if he doesn't step it up substantially next preseason or year, I think he could be relegated to the ST squad, with occasional looks as a OLB.

Phobia
12-03-2007, 12:25 AM
Is somebody going to explain the whole "both barrels" concept? I'm still confused by the thread title.

Discuss.

tk13
12-03-2007, 12:25 AM
I know tk13 and a few others around here still believe. They're patient. They think if we give it another year or two, we'll see progress and things will turn around. We'll get a winning record, get a playoff game, earn playoff experience, build on that, take the next step, etc.

Who knows, maybe they're right.

But I just don't have any faith in a Carl organization anymore. And I mean than in a quasi-religious way -- I have lost my faith. Not my fanhood -- I still follow the team -- but I just can't give Carl and Co. the benefit of a doubt anymore.

I'll still be here, although I may be an emotional zombie through much of it. And if we do turn it around, tk13 and zouk and those guys can really rub it in and tell me they were right.

Godspeed to them. I just don't have the energy to take one more leap into the fire with Carl.
I have less than zero faith in Carl, he should be fired, but I'm not confident he's going anywhere. And I think this could all blow up and we could be heading for a decade of garbage, but maybe not. You just don't know yet... a lot of it will probably depend on Croyle. The offensive line has to be fixed, quickly, or Herm probably won't make it beyond another year. And that's fine with me. I really am not going on some "real fan" tangent, I have nothing to rub in anyone's face. I don't blame people for not going to the games, I would have no desire to pay NFL ticket prices to see this team right now.

It's not even that, my biggest point would be, and I don't even want to say it... that the one thing I actually agree with Herm about is this team, as built right now, just can't open it up on offense. And that's probably 50% of the complaining on this board. Obviously you can't be run/run/pass totally predictable, but there have been times where we've passed the ball, opened it up, spread formations on 1st down, deep throws downfield, and just gotten clobbered. I just don't feel like arguing for 200 posts about it, there's just no point, which is why I don't even feel like posting. I lost faith in that after the Denver game. That was not a good defense, they gave up 44 points to Martz-ball the week before, so we opened it up, and their defense clobbered us, picked off Huard and Croyle both on deep balls, got sacks, fumbles, just clobbered us. Then the next week we went conservative against Indy and only lost by 3. Not that Herm handled the Indy game 100% correct, but you tell me which way suits this team better. In the ideal world, we'll address the offensive line and be able to open it up more next year. I don't think Herm is a gunslinger but I don't think he'd honestly be much worse than Cowher given similar talent. We'll see, I could be wrong.

Honestly, I think Carl might have beat the fanbase down far too much for Herm to ever have a chance. Which is too bad, but that's not totally Herm's fault. Trying to rebuild a roster with youth for the first time in the 27 year plan, nobody's gonna have the patience for that, fans or players.

Agent V
12-03-2007, 12:27 AM
Is somebody going to explain the whole "both barrels" concept? I'm still confused by the thread title.

Discuss.
Depends on your interpretation I guess (or how much you really hate Herm Edwards). Looks like Gonzalez just called out the offense itself and maybe Solari. He said he doesn't want to play this kind of football and doesn't think Herm wants to either.

shyguyms
12-03-2007, 12:28 AM
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally Posted by Zouk
0% chance Ty Law is a Chief next year. I would like to cut Surtain as well. I actually think Benny Sapp can play one corner spot, although I know others disagree. We'll bring in a mid-level free agent and draft a guy on day 1.

The over-use of LJ argument is silly, in my opinion. LT had more touches last year if playoffs are included, I believe. And his injury was a blunt force injury and not a repetitive stress injury. The over-use was a result of Michael Bennett getting hurt and there being no one else on the roster who could carry the ball. As you said, Herm inherited a mess. He got Dee Brown who fumbled something like 2 of the 5 carries he was given.

As far as Herm losing the team, I see no evidence for this whatsoever. Losing in an NFL clubhouse is never easy, but I've seen no quotes - even anonymous ones - from players bashing Herm. Do you have information that I don't?
__________________________________________________________

they havent come out yelling aout him yet but only because he is black and they feel they will look bad.

FAX
12-03-2007, 12:28 AM
I look at it very simply if Herm knew going into the season that our O-Line was going to suck then it is his fault for not trying to fix it. If he didn't know then everyone should question what the **** was he looking at during practice.

Yepporoloyoyo.

FAX

philfree
12-03-2007, 12:29 AM
I know you're right on Pollard, but I'm still not ready to give up on him. He came out as a junior, and didn't play D last year. So we're seeing baptism by fire for a very young player at a position where every error is glaring.

I like out two young S's they I wouldn't give up on either of them just yet. We're gonna have to get younger a CB and we could still use a truely dominating DT. After that we need to fix our O line with FA's and there's some good ones who'll be available. There will be plenty of $$bucks availble this year so I don't see this as a long term rebuilding process. Hell the NFL isn't a long term game these days so I expect a big improvement in '08.

PhilFree:arrow:

Pablo
12-03-2007, 12:31 AM
It just sucks that our team is actually making a valid attempt to get younger all around, and some people can't appreciate that.

I love the fact that we have the most productive rookie WR in the league, and our defense if full of faces 30 years or younger. It's just gonna be a while before we get a competent young group of guys who can compete week in and week out.

If nothing else, you've got to applaud Herm for bringing in a slew of solid young guys to build a foundation upon. Even if he isn't the coach who sees that youth prosper.

blueballs
12-03-2007, 12:35 AM
Im tired of it and dont want to play this style of football, Chiefs tight end Tony Gonzalez said.

Its not what Im into.

I dont think Herm (Edwards) wants to.

We want to win. Lets get it over with.

I dont want to keep the game close until the second half because were a second-half team.

Thats bull.

Lets just go out there and win a football game.



Lets get rid of that stress.

Im tired of it.

Im sitting on the sideline thinking,

Here we go again.

You cant help but let those thoughts creep into your mind.

shyguyms
12-03-2007, 12:38 AM
It just sucks that our team is actually making a valid attempt to get younger all around, and some people can't appreciate that.

I love the fact that we have the most productive rookie WR in the league, and our defense if full of faces 30 years or younger. It's just gonna be a while before we get a competent young group of guys who can compete week in and week out.

If nothing else, you've got to applaud Herm for bringing in a slew of solid young guys to build a foundation upon. Even if he isn't the coach who sees that youth prosper.

You are happy that they are young and will be here awhile?
god damn it this team is 4-8 i don't want them here along time, all this says it that were young and these bums are here to stay!
holy shit herm as got to go, Law is over the hill
I cannot stand another fourth and 4 with a 2 yard pass im gonna kill be myself. Solari should move to IRAQ and Herm can be his driver!!!

philfree
12-03-2007, 12:40 AM
You are happy that they are young and will be here awhile?
god damn it this team is 4-8 i don't want them here along time, all this says it that were young and these bums are here to stay!
holy shit herm as got to go, Law is over the hill
I cannot stand another fourth and 4 with a 2 yard pass im gonna kill be myself. Solari should move to IRAQ and Herm can be his driver!!!

You are an I D 10 T...!

shyguyms
12-03-2007, 12:41 AM
When our team was old and everyone was saying we needed to get younger we were winning now we are the turd of the NFL
god damn the Raiders are better than us!!

cdcox
12-03-2007, 12:42 AM
The over-use of LJ argument is silly, in my opinion. LT had more touches last year if playoffs are included, I believe. And his injury was a blunt force injury and not a repetitive stress injury. The over-use was a result of Michael Bennett getting hurt and there being no one else on the roster who could carry the ball. As you said, Herm inherited a mess. He got Dee Brown who fumbled something like 2 of the 5 carries he was given.


It's the decreased production, not just the injury. Football Outsiders ran several articles on this last year predicting a significant fall off in production this year. The correlation between carries in season n and decreased produciton in season n+1 is very strong. Carries correlate more strongly with decrease in production that "touches" which include pass receptions. The typical pounding on a pass reception is less than a typical running play. LT's production has been off this year too, although not as sharply as LJ's.


As far as Herm losing the team, I see no evidence for this whatsoever. Losing in an NFL clubhouse is never easy, but I've seen no quotes - even anonymous ones - from players bashing Herm. Do you have information that I don't?

Mostly reading between the lines. There can be no doubt that the intensity on the field has been less since the Indy game. I haven't had the sense that we were going to win any of the games the last few weeks. The players aren't exerting as much effort.

Fairplay
12-03-2007, 12:46 AM
There can be no doubt that the intensity on the field has been less since the Indy game. I haven't had the sense that we were going to win any of the games the last few weeks. The players aren't exerting as much effort.



With Herm as the coach, can you blame them? His bad play calling and lack of wanting to reach the end zone passes off to them team.

Play to win, yeah right.

Pablo
12-03-2007, 12:48 AM
You are happy that they are young and will be here awhile?
god damn it this team is 4-8 i don't want them here along time, all this says it that were young and these bums are here to stay!
holy shit herm as got to go, Law is over the hill
I cannot stand another fourth and 4 with a 2 yard pass im gonna kill be myself. Solari should move to IRAQ and Herm can be his driver!!!Football fans in Maryland must lack patience and intelligence.

Pablo
12-03-2007, 12:50 AM
When our team was old and everyone was saying we needed to get younger we were winning now we are the turd of the NFL
god damn the Raiders are better than us!!I'm beginning to understand why you have less than 200 posts in 5 years.

We all get that we suck..but it's called re-building. A complete overhaul is necessary and that requires playing younger, mistake-prone players.
We might be trash for this year..and possibly the next, but the Raiders are gonna be trash for another decade at least.

Zouk
12-03-2007, 12:51 AM
Mostly reading between the lines. There can be no doubt that the intensity on the field has been less since the Indy game. I haven't had the sense that we were going to win any of the games the last few weeks. The players aren't exerting as much effort.

Well I have doubt. I just don't see it. It's a hard thing to argue because I can't point to anything tangible, but I just really think you're wrong.

Micjones
12-03-2007, 12:56 AM
I want to hear more from Brian Waters and other veterans on this team.

Until Edwards is gone...

blueballs
12-03-2007, 12:59 AM
LJ quit in the playoff game before his payday
He was right -what's the point
"The other team aren't dumb dumbs"

FAX
12-03-2007, 01:03 AM
I don't see Gonzo opening up on Herm. Just venting and stating the obvious. Nobody's very happy right now. But Herm was hired as Head Coach and the Head Coach takes the heat when things suck. And, things suck. A lot.

The oline is where the bleeding is worse. I think it's interesting that Herm decided at some point that these guys were serviceable. Doubly interesting is the fact that a good HC along with a good OC can compensate for a marginal oline through the use of plays that maximize their abilities while minimizing the potential for mistakes.

But no. We can't do that. Instead, we scale back the offensive game plan to such a predictable level that enemy defenses know what we're going to run before the ball is snapped. We scale back the playbook to 3 plays. We start a quarterback whose skills are so limited, the enemy only has to watch 15 minutes of tape on the guy to understand his tendencies.

And we do this game after game. Over and over. Until finally, everyone can see what we really are. Garbage. And, what does Herm do? Does he take responsibility? Does he institute changes early enough to make a legitimate effort to save the season? Does he declare "rebuild" and bring in the young players? No. He does none of that.

He blames the players - knowing full well that there will be people who pull out the "coaches don't catch passes" card. He blames the OC for being new on the job - knowing full well that he chose him for the position. And, he blames the team for "not making plays in the fourth quarter" - knowing full well that they are incapable of recovering from a deficit under his system.

I wish I could believe in Herm's plan. Maybe someday he'll spell it out so I can believe. Until then, it looks like he's making it up as he goes along and covering his ass along the way.

FAX

cdcox
12-03-2007, 01:07 AM
It's not even that, my biggest point would be, and I don't even want to say it... that the one thing I actually agree with Herm about is this team, as built right now, just can't open it up on offense. And that's probably 50% of the complaining on this board. Obviously you can't be run/run/pass totally predictable, but there have been times where we've passed the ball, opened it up, spread formations on 1st down, deep throws downfield, and just gotten clobbered.

There is a middle ground between the Indy game and going in a spread formation every down.

Don't:
Talk in the press how 21 points is a lot of points, talk about circuis offense, etc.
Make all of your pass plays less than 5 yards.
Think that you have to use all 3 downs to get a first down.
Think that 1st and 15 is an impossible obstacle.
Consider that the purpose of the offese is to rest a defense.
Take your foot off the offensive accelerator when you enter FG range.
Make it tougher on your rookie QB by castrating the offense.
Run pass patterns where EVERYONE turns and faces the QB after going 5 yards downfield.
Run the same play from the same formation more than twice in a game.

Do:
Use first down and 2nd and 6 or less to throw intermediate routes of 12 to 20 yards. The pass rush is less on these downs.
Make the defense defend the whole field. Even if it is a decoy reciever, spread the defenders out.
Expect and trust your players to do their job. If you don't they will meet your bad expectation every time.
Expect your defense to make mistakes.
Have the intention and well-crafted plans to score TDs in the redzone.
Find some weakness in the defensive opponent and game plan to exploit it. If there is a weak point in thier line, send 3 blockers to that point of attack.

Demonpenz
12-03-2007, 01:08 AM
2 is a wake up call but wait until he opens all three!

smittysbar
12-03-2007, 01:17 AM
I don't see Gonzo opening up on Herm. Just venting and stating the obvious. Nobody's very happy right now. But Herm was hired as Head Coach and the Head Coach takes the heat when things suck. And, things suck. A lot.

The oline is where the bleeding is worse. I think it's interesting that Herm decided at some point that these guys were serviceable. Doubly interesting is the fact that a good HC along with a good OC can compensate for a marginal oline through the use of plays that maximize their abilities while minimizing the potential for mistakes.

But no. We can't do that. Instead, we scale back the offensive game plan to such a predictable level that enemy defenses know what we're going to run before the ball is snapped. We scale back the playbook to 3 plays. We start a quarterback whose skills are so limited, the enemy only has to watch 15 minutes of tape on the guy to understand his tendencies.

And we do this game after game. Over and over. Until finally, everyone can see what we really are. Garbage. And, what does Herm do? Does he take responsibility? Does he institute changes early enough to make a legitimate effort to save the season? Does he declare "rebuild" and bring in the young players? No. He does none of that.

He blames the players - knowing full well that there will be people who pull out the "coaches don't catch passes" card. He blames the OC for being new on the job - knowing full well that he chose him for the position. And, he blames the team for "not making plays in the fourth quarter" - knowing full well that they are incapable of recovering from a deficit under his system.

I wish I could believe in Herm's plan. Maybe someday he'll spell it out so I can believe. Until then, it looks like he's making it up as he goes along and covering his ass along the way.

FAX


:bravo: Great Post!!!!!!!!!!!

Zouk
12-03-2007, 01:18 AM
But no. We can't do that. Instead, we scale back the offensive game plan to such a predictable level that enemy defenses know what we're going to run before the ball is snapped.

FAX

I just really didn't see the scaled back offense today. I saw loads of motion, empty backfields, play actions on all downs, Jared Allen as a TE, an attempt at a reverse pass, etc.

Demonpenz
12-03-2007, 01:21 AM
what the hell is bowe doing today. Was he not getting seperation?

DaneMcCloud
12-03-2007, 01:28 AM
And you trust Carl and Herm to actually fix this?

Has the defense gone from perennial number 32 to number 9 in the NFL?

Yes.

Do I think that the Chiefs will address their offensive line woes in the off-season?

Yes.

The Chiefs should target Max Starks, Ryan Lilja and do their best to draft a top tier left tackle, left guard, center and right tackle (Waters is due to breakdown at any moment).

The AFC West is obviously in transition as a whole and San Diego's only winning because the Raiders, Chiefs and Broncos are experiencing a youth movement.

I seriously think that the AFC West is up for grabs next year and IF the Chiefs make the right personnel moves, they'll be in the hunt for the divisional title next December.

RedThat
12-03-2007, 01:48 AM
I don't see Gonzo opening up on Herm. Just venting and stating the obvious. Nobody's very happy right now. But Herm was hired as Head Coach and the Head Coach takes the heat when things suck. And, things suck. A lot.

The oline is where the bleeding is worse. I think it's interesting that Herm decided at some point that these guys were serviceable. Doubly interesting is the fact that a good HC along with a good OC can compensate for a marginal oline through the use of plays that maximize their abilities while minimizing the potential for mistakes.

But no. We can't do that. Instead, we scale back the offensive game plan to such a predictable level that enemy defenses know what we're going to run before the ball is snapped. We scale back the playbook to 3 plays. We start a quarterback whose skills are so limited, the enemy only has to watch 15 minutes of tape on the guy to understand his tendencies.

And we do this game after game. Over and over. Until finally, everyone can see what we really are. Garbage. And, what does Herm do? Does he take responsibility? Does he institute changes early enough to make a legitimate effort to save the season? Does he declare "rebuild" and bring in the young players? No. He does none of that.

He blames the players - knowing full well that there will be people who pull out the "coaches don't catch passes" card. He blames the OC for being new on the job - knowing full well that he chose him for the position. And, he blames the team for "not making plays in the fourth quarter" - knowing full well that they are incapable of recovering from a deficit under his system.

I wish I could believe in Herm's plan. Maybe someday he'll spell it out so I can believe. Until then, it looks like he's making it up as he goes along and covering his ass along the way.

FAX

Two words: Insanity and stupidity

Fruit Ninja
12-03-2007, 02:16 AM
This is what i have noticed They start off the games pretty well. Then when the Defense see's the offense isnt going to do a damn thing again. They lose focus.

Herm as someone said puts self doubt in the offense. This team is just bad. Why oh why do Herman Edwards football teams suffer from tons of injuries.



I know why the QB's do. His ****ed up play calling. Then he puts his QB's in obvious passing situations and its like hitting a baseball off a tee.

Tribal Warfare
12-03-2007, 02:41 AM
Im tired of it and dont want to play this style of football, Chiefs tight end Tony Gonzalez said. Its not what Im into. I dont think Herm (Edwards) wants to. We want to win. Lets get it over with. I dont want to keep the game close until the second half because were a second-half team. Thats bull. Lets just go out there and win a football game.

Lets get rid of that stress. Im tired of it. Im sitting on the sideline thinking, Here we go again. You cant help but let those thoughts creep into your mind.



This comment was directed to the entire offensive coaching staff

Mr. Flopnuts
12-03-2007, 02:47 AM
I don't think you will get any disagreement on any of that zouk.

My only problem is that either Herm is stupid or incompetent if he thought this O-Line was half way decent. Either way he should be fired for it.



He doesn't shop for the groceries, he just cooks them. This is Carl's line. This is Carl's team. The last 2 drafts are the only places Herm has had any say what so ever.

Mecca
12-03-2007, 03:13 AM
Look, I said before this year and still to this day believe the Chiefs are a largely untalented team that no coaching will overcome. The problem is we have the wrong people leading this "rebuilding".

1. We have a coach who I believe if he had New Englands offensive talent we'd average no more than 20 a game and he'd be repeatedly screaming at the QB for changing plays and scoring to fast...he has actually done this before in NY.

2. We have a GM who at his heart doesn't want to rebuild. Signing Edwards, LJ moves like that are not rebuilding moves. It's like I call it, halfass rebuilding.

The Chiefs can be ready to compete probably in 3-4 years if it's done right, I just have no trust in the team to do it right.

Also anyone who points out the defense is #9..answer these questions...how many holes does it still have..answer a lot due to shittyness and age...how many times has it folded in 2nd halfs...at home...

The defense is further a long than the offense but it is nowhere close to being a finished product either, this team just by in large lacks talent but it also has an incompetent coaching staff fueled by a GM who will almost undoubtedly go out and sign FA's to win 8 games when in reality they shouldn't heavily play the market this year..

If the Chiefs finish 4-12.....they can draft 2 starting OT's.....a guard in the 4th and probably a corner in the 3rd.......I'd probably try to sign Bryant Johnson so Kennison and Parker are both gone...but there is no need to spend 100 million dollars in FA this year when they can get younger players in the draft to do the same thing.

Fruit Ninja
12-03-2007, 04:04 AM
IMO, the Defense is close to being a finished product. They have been pretty damned good all year considering how piss poor our Defense is.

Mecca
12-03-2007, 04:07 AM
IMO, the Defense is close to being a finished product. They have been pretty damned good all year considering how piss poor our Defense is.

There's to much age to be close to being finished consider this.....both corners will need to be replaced probably after this year..MLB and 1 OLB need to be replaced.....and we still need a DT.

Fruit Ninja
12-03-2007, 04:08 AM
You can play with older players. **** look at New England they are pretty good, and they got some old folks there, but they have good players in key areas.

Vrabel is old, Bruschi is old. Seau is old, Harrison is old. thats some good age right there.

Mecca
12-03-2007, 04:14 AM
You can play with older players. **** look at New England they are pretty good, and they got some old folks there, but they have good players in key areas.

Vrabel is old, Bruschi is old. Seau is old, Harrison is old. thats some good age right there.

Those old guys are still productive...it also doesn't hurt to stand behind the best Dline in the league that has a ton of 1st round picks on it.

We can do that too if we get a Line comparable to NE's.

Fruit Ninja
12-03-2007, 04:21 AM
Those old guys are still productive...it also doesn't hurt to stand behind the best Dline in the league that has a ton of 1st round picks on it.

We can do that too if we get a Line comparable to NE's.Thats what the Chiefs are working on. To get the Dline to be very good. Thats why they drafted 2 young guys this year. WE all know it all starts up front. Donnie imo is just as good as any of NE's LB'ers right now. We serously need corners though. I do like Brackenridge though. I think he's going to be a starter very soon.

This defense is close. Not quite there, but its damned close.

Gravedigger
12-03-2007, 06:05 AM
Completely calling out Mike Solari saying he's a stress I love it.

chagrin
12-03-2007, 06:21 AM
Good for you Gonzo ... Frickin' Herm.. 60s style-ball ...

Remember Guntha's run, run, run, then pass offense? The one that Elvis threw for 3,000 and 4,000 yards in? Gunther may have drafted like shit but he got more out of his shitty drafts than Herm has gotten out of his good drafts.
Not at all saying Gunther should have stayed or should return, just comparing them.

FringeNC
12-03-2007, 06:23 AM
He scaled back the offense because they don't have the talent to run a more complicated offense.

Al Saunders couldn't win with this offensive line.

You've got it backwards. You run a complicated offense when you don't have the personnel to dominate -- which applies to every team in the league with the possible exception of New England.

HemiEd
12-03-2007, 06:26 AM
How is it "opening up" on Herm when he says "I don't want to play this style of football and I don't think Herm wants to"? Isn't that opening up on Solari?

I agree, and it was only one barrel.

mikey23545
12-03-2007, 06:49 AM
This thread is exactly why this board is almost unreadable anymore.

Absolutely.

I can't believe what it has become.

TEX
12-03-2007, 07:22 AM
Absolutely.

I can't believe what it has become.

Since Herm arrived?

TEX
12-03-2007, 07:26 AM
Im tired of it and dont want to play this style of football, Chiefs tight end Tony Gonzalez said. Its not what Im into. I dont think Herm (Edwards) wants to. We want to win. Lets get it over with.

Maybe I'm not seeeing how he called Herm out. He said,"It's not what I'm into. I don't think Herm wants to." :hmmm:

TEX
12-03-2007, 07:29 AM
IMO, the Defense is close to being a finished product. They have been pretty damned good all year considering how piss poor our Defense is.

Let's hope not. Our Defense BLOWS against the run. It's been that way all year. Nap Harris is no better than Mitchell was. This defense folds late in games the same way DV's did. Now, that might be becaise the offense is the worst in football and the defense is on the field for so long, but still, though improved, this defeense is nothing to hang your hat on.

King_Chief_Fan
12-03-2007, 07:32 AM
Remember Guntha's run, run, run, then pass offense? The one that Elvis threw for 3,000 and 4,000 yards in? Gunther may have drafted like shit but he got more out of his shitty drafts than Herm has gotten out of his good drafts.
Not at all saying Gunther should have stayed or should return, just comparing them.

and to think Herm will stay employed. Gunther was gone after 2 seasons. His record was .500. Herm's......TBD.

Easy 6
12-03-2007, 07:35 AM
While he didnt come right out & say "I'm sick to death of Herms style", he might as well have.

He took a direct swipe at Herms stated philosophy, which is to keep it close until the second half & hang on tight for the win.

But to be fair to Herm & Solari, i totally agree with those who've said that we DID try to open it up today...spread, tricks, 4th&whatever, 1st down passing etc.

But the line & Huard werent up to the task, to me THAT is the story behind this loss.

TEX
12-03-2007, 07:42 AM
While he didnt come right out & say "I'm sick to death of Herms style", he might as well have.

He took a direct swipe at Herms stated philosophy, which is to keep it close until the second half & hang on tight for the win.

But to be fair to Herm & Solari, i totally agree with those who've said that we DID try to open it up today...spread, tricks, 4th&whatever, 1st down passing etc.

But the line & Huard werent up to the task, to me THAT is the story behind this loss.

I agree. However, Herm KNEW what we had in the OL and QB BEFORE the season. He was Okay with it. He instructed us to "dummy-down the offense". You can't just turn it on when you want if you've been running things a certain way for so long. We CHOSE this path. Herm's been here long enough to be held accountable for part of the mess. It's not all DV's fault. Why some give him a free pass is beyond me. Anyway, that's just my opinion.

thehead
12-03-2007, 07:43 AM
[QUOTE=scott free]While he didnt come right out & say "I'm sick to death of Herms style", he might as well have.

But to be fair to Herm & Solari, i totally agree with those who've said that we DID try to open it up today...spread, tricks, 4th&whatever, 1st
down passing etc.
]


Horrid locked on to TG did not look at another player ,so I will not give Solari or Herm any credit other then being bad game mangers

the Talking Can
12-03-2007, 07:48 AM
Tony regrets resigning every day....he career will end playing Herm ball.

The whole philosophy of "playing to maybe get lucky in the 4th quarter" is outmoded...it is stupid and cowardly. It is also the essence of Herm Edwards.

You can't play to "stay close." You have to play to win...from the very first snap.

But Tony knows, we never have a chance because our coach gives up before the game even starts. He's a coward and a loser.

Reerun_KC
12-03-2007, 08:04 AM
Tony regrets resigning every day....he career will end playing Herm ball.

The whole philosophy of "playing to maybe get lucky in the 4th quarter" is outmoded...it is stupid and cowardly. It is also the essence of Herm Edwards.

You can't play to "stay close." You have to play to win...from the very first snap.

But Tony knows, we never have a chance because our coach gives up before the game even starts. He's a coward and a loser.


The War is already won before the battle is ever fought with Herm Edwards... /Bill Belichek

Mecca
12-03-2007, 08:13 AM
Absolutely.

I can't believe what it has become.

Wait so the board sucks now because people don't like Herm or how the organization is doing things?

Reerun_KC
12-03-2007, 08:16 AM
Wait so the board sucks now because people don't like Herm or how the organization is doing things?

Yep, unless we follow Herm blindly and drink Carls Red Koo-Aid, we are not fans.

Maybe they should move over to WPI and post....

Mecca
12-03-2007, 08:20 AM
Yep, unless we follow Herm blindly and drink Carls Red Koo-Aid, we are not fans.

Maybe they should move over to WPI and post....

See shit like that pisses me off. If you weren't a fan you wouldn't care at all....honestly part of being a fan is to show your displeasure when the organization does stupid things.

If everyone just sat back and swallowed it..well you get things like Carl for 19 years and that makes you an enabler..so how's that make them "better fans"?

Chiefnj2
12-03-2007, 08:21 AM
Tony regrets resigning every day....he career will end playing Herm ball.

The whole philosophy of "playing to maybe get lucky in the 4th quarter" is outmoded...it is stupid and cowardly. It is also the essence of Herm Edwards.

You can't play to "stay close." You have to play to win...from the very first snap.

But Tony knows, we never have a chance because our coach gives up before the game even starts. He's a coward and a loser.

I'm sick of Tony's post game whining. When the season ended last year he made a comment about how tiring it was to continually lose and he wasn't sure where he would end up playing. Then Carl offers to make him the highest paid TE in the game (again) and he's happy to sign on the dotted line. At the time he signed his extension he knew damn well the direction the team was headed and the philosophy of the head coach. He could have tried to insist on some changes, etc., but he was happy with the cash.

Rausch
12-03-2007, 08:27 AM
Has the defense gone from perennial number 32 to number 9 in the NFL?

Yes.

Do I think that the Chiefs will address their offensive line woes in the off-season?

Yes.

That's where I'm sitting. There was a lot of rebuilding to be done after last year and it seems we started defense first. I think the FO really underestimated the rate of decline on our line. We were respectable last year and it seems the conventional wisdom was that if we could get respectable play out of Shields' replacement we'd be respectable.

No.

Huard had a better line last year and looked better. So did LJ for that matter.

We have more playmakers this year (Bowe, Gonzo, Smith, LJ) than last year but we can't string together long drives because we can't get consistent play out of the line.

Mecca
12-03-2007, 08:29 AM
It'll get worse before it gets better...cdcox perfectly explained why.

Rausch
12-03-2007, 08:56 AM
It's the decreased production, not just the injury. Football Outsiders ran several articles on this last year predicting a significant fall off in production this year. The correlation between carries in season n and decreased produciton in season n+1 is very strong. Carries correlate more strongly with decrease in production that "touches" which include pass receptions. The typical pounding on a pass reception is less than a typical running play. LT's production has been off this year too, although not as sharply as LJ's.


I don't think last year has anything to do with it. There wasn't much open for him to run through and he was tentative. He wasn't use to getting the ball and seeing squat open up. He changed the way he ran and started looking like Donnel Bennet - straight up the center's but for 2 or three yards.

Smith is a smaller back and just seems to run with that "squirmy" style. Marcus ran that way as well. You didn't really see any hole there but it was just big enough to squeeze through.

Pushead2
12-03-2007, 09:07 AM
I don't think last year has anything to do with it. There wasn't much open for him to run through and he was tentative. He wasn't use to getting the ball and seeing squat open up. He changed the way he ran and started looking like Donnel Bennet - straight up the center's but for 2 or three yards.

Smith is a smaller back and just seems to run with that "squirmy" style. Marcus ran that way as well. You didn't really see any hole there but it was just big enough to squeeze through.

Me personally I like that type of back better then the smash mouth football run up the middle and destroy both lines type.

Dicky McElephant
12-03-2007, 09:07 AM
I wonder if Gonzo will threaten to retire next year if he doesn't think that we do enough in the offseason.

el borracho
12-03-2007, 10:00 AM
We have to play a certain way. We try to do that to protect the quarterback and make sure we can throw the ball. You have all of these fancy ideas there at the end and there are certain things were stuck with because of how we have to play."

The way we are playing has not protected the quarterback. I am, however, very curious what Herm would like to do if he had the players. Someone should ask him.

Mecca
12-03-2007, 10:04 AM
We have to play a certain way. We try to do that to protect the quarterback and make sure we can throw the ball. You have all of these fancy ideas there at the end and there are certain things were stuck with because of how we have to play."

The way we are playing has not protected the quarterback. I am, however, very curious what Herm would like to do if he had the players. Someone should ask him.

Just go look at the offensive stats he had with the Jets......he had offensive talent most years he was there.

I'd say just look at what the Jets best offensive year was there...

ChiTown
12-03-2007, 10:05 AM
There is a middle ground between the Indy game and going in a spread formation every down.

Don't:
Talk in the press how 21 points is a lot of points, talk about circuis offense, etc.
Make all of your pass plays less than 5 yards.
Think that you have to use all 3 downs to get a first down.
Think that 1st and 15 is an impossible obstacle.
Consider that the purpose of the offese is to rest a defense.
Take your foot off the offensive accelerator when you enter FG range.
Make it tougher on your rookie QB by castrating the offense.
Run pass patterns where EVERYONE turns and faces the QB after going 5 yards downfield.
Run the same play from the same formation more than twice in a game.

Do:
Use first down and 2nd and 6 or less to throw intermediate routes of 12 to 20 yards. The pass rush is less on these downs.
Make the defense defend the whole field. Even if it is a decoy reciever, spread the defenders out.
Expect and trust your players to do their job. If you don't they will meet your bad expectation every time.
Expect your defense to make mistakes.
Have the intention and well-crafted plans to score TDs in the redzone.
Find some weakness in the defensive opponent and game plan to exploit it. If there is a weak point in thier line, send 3 blockers to that point of attack.

BRAVO!

Great post.

el borracho
12-03-2007, 10:07 AM
I think they are mistaken to coddle Croyle so much. Definitely. They should let him do what Damon tried to do today.

But I don't buy at all that Herm hates passing and all that. He has a different tolerance for risk than most coaches. Too low for most of our tastes including mine. But why this comment and why today? He didn't kill us today.

Call out the linemen for looking like they've quit, call out Huard for not being able to hit a receiver in the numbers... put the blame where it belongs. JMO
Yep.

On a related note, when was the last time a receiver didn't have to jump to catch one of Damon's passes?

ChiTown
12-03-2007, 10:08 AM
Yep.

On a related note, when was the last time a receiver didn't have to jump to catch one of Damon's passes?

or catch one on the bounce..........

el borracho
12-03-2007, 10:12 AM
Just go look at the offensive stats he had with the Jets......he had offensive talent most years he was there.

I'd say just look at what the Jets best offensive year was there...
Just to save me the trouble of looking it all up, would anyone who knows like to clue me in? What was the Jets offense like under Herm?

Count Alex's Losses
12-03-2007, 10:16 AM
Just to save me the trouble of looking it all up, would anyone who knows like to clue me in? What was the Jets offense like under Herm?

Average at best.

Best yards ranking - 12
Best points ranking - 15

They were ranked 21st or worse in total yardage 4 out of 5 years.

el borracho
12-03-2007, 10:22 AM
What else do we know about it? Was it a run first offense? Timed routes? Play action? Ball control? I can't say I ever really paid attention to the Jets so I have no idea what they were like.

Count Alex's Losses
12-03-2007, 10:25 AM
What else do we know about it? Was it a run first offense? Timed routes? Play action? Ball control? I can't say I ever really paid attention to the Jets so I have no idea what they were like.

They ran a west-coast system with a lot of power running. The last year they brought in heimerdinger to throw the ball down the field and it blew up in Herm's face.

Gonzo
12-03-2007, 10:25 AM
I hope one of these days TG gets a ring. Every time I hear about Shields I can't help but think about all the years he was here and we never got him one. That's quite a shame.

Garcia Bronco
12-03-2007, 10:27 AM
Seriously...and this is going to sound bad...but the only reason I can see for Herm Edwards being a head coach is because he's black...and no other reason. I just don't see any kind of accomplishment that would indicate otherwise. I must be missing something.

Mecca
12-03-2007, 10:28 AM
Seriously...and this is going to sound bad...but the only reason I can see for Herm Edwards being a head coach is because he's black...and no other reason. I just don't see any kind of accomplishment that would indicate otherwise. I must be missing something.

I said this too......and I don't like saying it because it sounds awful.

Pushead2
12-03-2007, 10:28 AM
I said this too......and I don't like saying it because it sounds awful.

Agreed.

el borracho
12-03-2007, 10:29 AM
They ran a west-coast system with a lot of power running. The last year they brought in heimerdinger to throw the ball down the field and it blew up in Herm's face.
Ah... well, the west-coast offense has gotten a bit dated, hasn't it? If that is the best we could hope for, then it is not much.

Mecca
12-03-2007, 10:30 AM
Also the Jets staple 3rd and long play...we've seen it here too...

The Shotgun swing/screen pass to the RB out in the flat...

dirk digler
12-03-2007, 10:34 AM
Seriously...and this is going to sound bad...but the only reason I can see for Herm Edwards being a head coach is because he's black...and no other reason. I just don't see any kind of accomplishment that would indicate otherwise. I must be missing something.

I agree and it doesn't hurt that he is friends with Carl so Carl felt safe with the guy.

el borracho
12-03-2007, 10:34 AM
I hope one of these days TG gets a ring. Every time I hear about Shields I can't help but think about all the years he was here and we never got him one. That's quite a shame.
Tony will never get a ring and it is a ****ing shame. (I am glad he did but) he should never have re-signed with us.

Count Alex's Losses
12-03-2007, 10:35 AM
Seriously...and this is going to sound bad...but the only reason I can see for Herm Edwards being a head coach is because he's black...and no other reason. I just don't see any kind of accomplishment that would indicate otherwise. I must be missing something.

He was being groomed as soon as he got on with Dungy at Tampa Bay. Herm is the Manchurian Candidate.

xbarretx
12-03-2007, 10:35 AM
good man tell it like it is!

im just glad that Damon was the same old Damon of late. its clear that either Brodies our man our we need to draft one.....now maybe the coaching staff will rest a little easier as they hopefull know now what the fans knew 7 games ago.

flame all you want, i DO NOT HATE Damon. he was the shiznit last year and i think he can help advise BRodie and help him develop. i just think that is a better position for him and that playing our young QB is a must....were going to have a top 10 draft comming up and with what at least 12 picks (depending on what happens in the off season) we should be able to patch up some huge gaps on both sides of the ball *cough cough 0-line* ;)

Gonzo
12-03-2007, 10:35 AM
:)

Mecca
12-03-2007, 10:37 AM
Is it sad that earlier I was honestly thinking that we'll never be a good team or rid of Peterson until he's dead?

dirk digler
12-03-2007, 10:38 AM
:)

LMAO

LMAO

That is awesome

King_Chief_Fan
12-03-2007, 11:04 AM
Tony will never get a ring and it is a ****ing shame. (I am glad he did but) he should never have re-signed with us.

If there is a strain between Herm and Gonzo, what are the prospects of Tony being traded before Herm leaves. I would like to think the prospects of Herm being fired before Gonzo is traded is greater.

King_Chief_Fan
12-03-2007, 11:06 AM
What else do we know about it? Was it a run first offense? Timed routes? Play action? Ball control? I can't say I ever really paid attention to the Jets so I have no idea what they were like.

that is what the next team Herm coaches will say about the Chiefs.

MahiMike
12-03-2007, 11:13 AM
How is it "opening up" on Herm when he says "I don't want to play this style of football and I don't think Herm wants to"? Isn't that opening up on Solari?

I think he heard himself talking and thought he better add that last bit to not totally piss off Herm.

BIG_DADDY
12-03-2007, 11:19 AM
Sprewell his ass.

el borracho
12-03-2007, 11:23 AM
If there is a strain between Herm and Gonzo, what are the prospects of Tony being traded before Herm leaves. I would like to think the prospects of Herm being fired before Gonzo is traded is greater.
Well, I'm just some guy on the internet so I can't claim to know what will happen but I don't think either of those things will happen. I speculate that Herm is with us in 2008 and 2009 and I speculate that Gonzalez remains a Chief for life.

el borracho
12-03-2007, 11:24 AM
that is what the next team Herm coaches will say about the Chiefs.
Who would hire Herm after he leaves us? He will be one short step up from Norv Turner at that point.

Oh Snap
12-03-2007, 12:10 PM
remember when TG took the timeout yesterday because the chargers knew what they were going to do?

FAX
12-03-2007, 12:52 PM
remember when TG took the timeout yesterday because the chargers knew what they were going to do?

ROFL

I had no idea. Is this true, Mr. Oh Snap? Details?

FAX

Woodrow Call
12-03-2007, 12:59 PM
Honestly, I think Carl might have beat the fanbase down far too much for Herm to ever have a chance. Which is too bad, but that's not totally Herm's fault. Trying to rebuild a roster with youth for the first time in the 27 year plan, nobody's gonna have the patience for that, fans or players.

I agree with this. IMO Herm was the wrong coach, at the wrong time, in the wrong place. Its not really all Herms fault he just came along when the fanbase was fed up and the team finally crumbled due to age and a complete lack of young talent.

StcChief
12-03-2007, 01:25 PM
ROFL

I had no idea. Is this true, Mr. Oh Snap? Details?

FAX even Enberg was yeah when you hvae TG and Bowe as your only real weapons.... or some such thing.

It was obvious watching the formation setup.....

Slowari two trick plays with EK reverse and maybe passing and JA's TD....

threw open the rest of our play book.

chiefsfan1963
12-03-2007, 01:36 PM
DV is just better! :) Tony knows it too!

TEX
12-03-2007, 01:45 PM
remember when TG took the timeout yesterday because the chargers knew what they were going to do?

ROFL :shake:

Halfcan
12-03-2007, 04:54 PM
I think TG has earned the right to say whatever he damn well please. Good for him.

I agree-Herm looks like a bigger dumbass for defending the fact that we suck. Its like-"Well we are losing, but not by that much."

:hmmm: