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View Full Version : Which failure has cost the Chiefs more?


el borracho
12-03-2007, 10:36 AM
Please see the poll.

Pushead2
12-03-2007, 10:37 AM
There isn't a poll but I will say Carl.

el borracho
12-03-2007, 10:38 AM
There isn't a poll but I will say Carl.
Of course it has to do with Carl and, yes, there is a poll. Are you always so premature?

OnTheWarpath58
12-03-2007, 10:41 AM
Failures in the draft, without question.

Not even close.

Carl has aways given the majority of the draft "power" to his head coaches. Not taking it away from the coaches that can't evaluate talent is his biggest mistake, IMO.

Pushead2
12-03-2007, 10:43 AM
Of course it has to do with Carl and, yes, there is a poll. Are you always so premature?

I was dropped on me head as a youngster :(

Simplex3
12-03-2007, 10:50 AM
Really, one kind of leads to the other, but...

I'll go draft.

Wile_E_Coyote
12-03-2007, 10:52 AM
Carl uses the draft to get head coaches. 4th for Herm, DV was a 2nd & 3rd?

Mr. Laz
12-03-2007, 10:53 AM
Failures in the draft, without question.

Not even close.

Carl has aways given the majority of the draft "power" to his head coaches. Not taking it away from the coaches that can't evaluate talent is his biggest mistake, IMO.
prolly .....


not keeping some separation between talent evaluation and the current coaching staff has lead to inconsistent, if not shitty, drafting.


although i still think good coaching maximizes each draft pick


ie a defense player could crash and burn under vermeil but might be solid under Herm. Most offensive player are gonna have a hard time succeeding under Herm than they would under Vermeil.


proper development heavily influences the draft picks

Rooster
12-03-2007, 10:57 AM
All of the above.

Chiefs_5627
12-03-2007, 11:02 AM
CP draft.

Count Alex's Losses
12-03-2007, 11:03 AM
Head coach.

Carl sucks at picking head coaches.

donkhater
12-03-2007, 11:07 AM
Failures in the draft, without question.

Not even close.

Carl has aways given the majority of the draft "power" to his head coaches. Not taking it away from the coaches that can't evaluate talent is his biggest mistake, IMO.
Really?

I actually was thinking in the other direction--not even close.

Peterson is going to give a lot of leeway to coaches when it comes to drafting players. In many ways he has to. They are the ones implementing a system and identifying players to fit that system. In the 90's, KC's drafts weren't great, but they weren't horrible either. In fact I would say that they were even above average for the league.

He hires Cunningham and DV, successively, and his ability to judge talent erodes? Doubtful. More likely the coach that is giving huge input is picking the wrong guys. That's not an error in drafting, but an error in picking the head coach.

Now Herm becomes head coach and Peterson knows how to draft again? uh-uh. Herm has picked up talent but is over his head as the head coach.

Peterson is responsible for selecting who he thinks will guide the football team and keeping the books in order. He has done his job on the latter, but on the former he has been woefully inadequate. I give blame (and credit) to the head coaches for the drafts.

King_Chief_Fan
12-03-2007, 11:07 AM
Head coach.

Carl sucks at picking head coaches.
Hades just froze over...I am agreeing with you.

JohninGpt
12-03-2007, 11:17 AM
Yes.

MahiMike
12-03-2007, 11:17 AM
A good coach w/a good philosophy would have this team at 8-4 instead of 4-8.

Wile_E_Coyote
12-03-2007, 11:21 AM
How many players have they drafted only to change their postions? Was Warfield the only successful one? The dreaded project pic

OnTheWarpath58
12-03-2007, 11:24 AM
Really?

I actually was thinking in the other direction--not even close.

Peterson is going to give a lot of leeway to coaches when it comes to drafting players. In many ways he has to. They are the ones implementing a system and identifying players to fit that system. In the 90's, KC's drafts weren't great, but they weren't horrible either. In fact I would say that they were even above average for the league.

He hires Cunningham and DV, successively, and his ability to judge talent erodes? Doubtful. More likely the coach that is giving huge input is picking the wrong guys. That's not an error in drafting, but an error in picking the head coach.

Now Herm becomes head coach and Peterson knows how to draft again? uh-uh. Herm has picked up talent but is over his head as the head coach.

Peterson is responsible for selecting who he thinks will guide the football team and keeping the books in order. He has done his job on the latter, but on the former he has been woefully inadequate. I give blame (and credit) to the head coaches for the drafts.

You should go back and re-read my post.

I never said that CP was good or bad at evaluating talent, only that he made a mistake in NOT taking away power to the coaches (Gunther, DV) that have no eye for talent.

There are plenty of coaches in the NFL that aren't neccessarily the best talent evaluators. But they have a strong scouting and personnel department behind them.

BigRedChief
12-03-2007, 12:18 PM
Draft by far.

Out of all the draft picks between 1999 - 2002 we got Dante Hall and Greg Wesley to show for it.

The failure to hit on at least one of the 4 DT picks in the first and second rounds is why we have issues now at OL. If just one of those hits we could have been drafting the OL that we knew we would need in 2 years.

You can't draft a pro bowler once every 5 years like Tony G or LJ and say you have done a good job.

StcChief
12-03-2007, 12:21 PM
Geez isn't it obvious his Drafts... but influenced by coaches/talent evaluators that suck hasn't helped.

and relying on his good old boy college coaches.

FAX
12-03-2007, 12:22 PM
I'm too confused to vote in this poll thing. Some say Carl wears panties. Some say he overrides HCs on pics (see LJ). Some say he lets the HCs decide on pics (I think even Carl says this). Some say he eats dead babies.

Does anyone really know?

FAX

the Talking Can
12-03-2007, 12:24 PM
Yes.

Reerun_KC
12-03-2007, 12:38 PM
Can I vote agian?

Mr. Laz
12-03-2007, 12:46 PM
I'm too confused to vote in this poll thing. Some say Carl wears panties. Some say he overrides HCs on pics (see LJ). Some say he lets the HCs decide on pics (I think even Carl says this). Some say he eats dead babies.

Does anyone really know?

FAX
no, we don't really know ..... but the results are what matter.


offensive coach = bad defense
defensive coach = bad offense


that fact that our drafting seems to go into the crapper depending on strength of our head coach indicates that carl lets the head coach heavily influence the draft.

personally i don't think carl WANTS the the responsibility of the draft on him ..... it's too difficult. He much rather let the head coach do it so that he doesn't have to take responsibility.

Coogs
12-03-2007, 12:57 PM
Geez isn't it obvious his Drafts... but influenced by coaches/talent evaluators that suck hasn't helped.

and relying on his good old boy college coaches.


The good old boy system has been the underlying downfall of the Chiefs these past 10 years. That philosophy that applies to the good old boy drafts, has been the same philosophy Carl has used to hire the last few HC's.... and co-oridinators on both sides of the ball as well. And we have had to give up draft picks to get those "buddies" as well.

Not saying other franchises do not use that system as well, but IMO, we need to start fresh with a GM who does not bring in his friends to coach, and have friends in the college ranks who's players are taken in the draft.

RJ
12-03-2007, 01:01 PM
Draft by far.

Out of all the draft picks between 1999 - 2002 we got Dante Hall and Greg Wesley to show for it.

The failure to hit on at least one of the 4 DT picks in the first and second rounds is why we have issues now at OL. If just one of those hits we could have been drafting the OL that we knew we would need in 2 years.

You can't draft a pro bowler once every 5 years like Tony G or LJ and say you have done a good job.



The failure at DT is also what stands out to me. We have paid and are paying for that in several ways.

The draft has been CP's greatest failure.

FAX
12-03-2007, 01:10 PM
no, we don't really know ..... but the results are what matter.

offensive coach = bad defense
defensive coach = bad offense

that fact that our drafting seems to go into the crapper depending on strength of our head coach indicates that carl lets the head coach heavily influence the draft.

personally i don't think carl WANTS the the responsibility of the draft on him ..... it's too difficult. He much rather let the head coach do it so that he doesn't have to take responsibility.

Based on that, Mr. Laz, I'd have to say that Carl's greatest sin is his HC selection criteria. But the drafting has been far from spectacular during his tenure.

It's so sad. Back in the day (when Carl first arrived), I think his first pick was DT (was it not?). There's the high bar. But, prior to Herm, we've probably had well over 100 picks during that time and (with precious few exceptions Gonzo, LJ, Szott, Carter, Shields, Edwards, Dante, Allen, etc.), it's been mainly an exercise in disappointment.

Of course, some of our picks were traded, but it's probably safe to say that, whatever it may be, our drafting methodology is very poor. I don't know the record of other NFL franchises, but our group can proudly say that far fewer than 10% of our actual draft day picks work out at all.

FAX

ChiefsCountry
12-03-2007, 01:18 PM
Clearly the draft. Head coaching choices have been solid even Herm and Gunther, if you consider the time they were hired.

Mr. Laz
12-03-2007, 01:43 PM
Clearly the draft. Head coaching choices have been solid even Herm and Gunther, if you consider the time they were hired.
unless Carl let's the head coach influence the draft heavily then it's both.


chicken or the egg ....... which came first, the crappy draft or the head coach who ran the crappy draft?

FAX
12-03-2007, 07:07 PM
I've decided that since Mr. htismaqe isn't posting, I'd resurrect some of his old posts and apply them as warranted. That way, it's almost as if he never left.

Mr. htismaqe: "The ineptitude is a symptom, not a cause. In fact, the problem that Laz mentioned is also a symptom rather than a cause."

FAX

BigMeatballDave
12-03-2007, 07:08 PM
I voted for coaches, but it could easily be both.

FAX
12-03-2007, 07:11 PM
Mr. htismaqe: "The coaches, by and large, have alot of power when it comes to personnel and schemes. We've never had a coach that could put it all together, and that's Carl's fault."

FAX

Bump
12-03-2007, 07:12 PM
how about Carl's failure at giving away draft picks for head coaches that can't win playoff games?

FAX
12-03-2007, 07:17 PM
how about Carl's failure at giving away draft picks for head coaches that can't win playoff games?

Mr. htismaqe: "The Chiefs have nobody to blame but themselves."

FAX

Lonewolf Ed
12-03-2007, 07:20 PM
Just from sheer numbers, I have to go with bust draft choices since they far outnumber the bad head coaches.

Skip Towne
12-03-2007, 07:29 PM
Marty and Carl constantly battled over control of personnel. It is part of the reason Marty left.

Bump
12-03-2007, 07:31 PM
Marty and Carl constantly battled over control of personnel. It is part of the reason Marty left.


poor Marty, he's probably one of the best regular season HC's ever and he's probably one of the worst playoff HC's ever.

boogblaster
12-03-2007, 07:40 PM
Both are lackin' ...altho his first-round drafts have been decent ...

Phobia
12-03-2007, 07:41 PM
poor Marty, he's probably one of the best regular season HC's ever and he's probably one of the worst playoff HC's ever.
You can probably eliminate "probably" from both statements.

Skip Towne
12-03-2007, 07:48 PM
You can probably eliminate "probably" from both statements.
Probably

Reerun_KC
12-03-2007, 07:56 PM
poor Marty, he's probably one of the best regular season HC's ever and he's probably one of the worst playoff HC's ever.


Most likely!

Extra Point
12-03-2007, 07:57 PM
Herm to team: "C'mon! Act like you've been there!"

Team to Herm: "Been where?"

Hydrae
12-03-2007, 08:00 PM
I voted coaches because a good coach can improve the players while a bad coach can ruin good players.

Bump
12-03-2007, 08:12 PM
You can probably eliminate "probably" from both statements.

you're probably right :)