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Chris Meck
12-03-2007, 01:41 PM
seriously, guys. The Vermeil era left the cupboard empty. Really empty. Like, only LJ and Gonzalez in their prime and nothing on defense other than a surprisingly good Jared Allen.

We were able to do the things we did offensively because of Willie Roaf, Will Shields, and Wiegmann. The two Willies are gone now, and Casey is a shadow of his former self. Green's career basically ended against Cinci. There were no good WR's. No good young OL talent to take over.

Now, I'm not saying that Solari has called the best game in the world, or that Herm hasn't made a lot of questionable game decisions.

I am saying a season like this was inevitable.

In two years, we've gone from a laughing-stock defense to respectable. That took some doing; and really, had to be done. In the meantime, the offense has floundered due to age and injury-but you can't rebuild both sides from scratch simultaneously.

Nonetheless, they've done a decent job of doing exactly that; Bowe certainly looks like the real thing. I think Kolby Smith looks like a great 3rd down back/change of pace runner for a healthy LJ. (anybody see that block he put on Merriman where he upended him?) and I think Croyle looks like a guy that if he gets time, can really toss the rock.

The one thing that didn't get done was the offensive line. and it's been
ofFENsive. I'm of the opinion that we're 2 to 3 guys away (depending on Niswanger-C?) from having a good line again, and a good line will suddenly make this offense look entirely different.

A lot of us said we'd tolerate a 4-12 season if we were REALLY rebuilding. Well, we are. So I'm not too upset right now, actually. I think firing Herm right now and going in another direction is just going to set us back a couple of years again. Herm has his process underway, and to chuck it now means we've suffered for no reason. Switching to a different offensive scheme doesn't make sense because Bowe, Croyle, Gonzo, and Smith all have good skill sets for the Coryell-type offense.

I think we can be back in the play-off hunt next year, I really do, and with some good young skill-position players in place.

Just my opinion. Fix the line and stay the course.

Mr. Arrowhead
12-03-2007, 01:45 PM
That is my thoughts about this year too. Your sucess and failures begin with the O Line.

tooge
12-03-2007, 01:48 PM
I totally agree. I wonder though, do you start with the draft for the O line and keep looking for a franchise QB or do you go LT and Guard in the draft and go free agency for QB. I happen to like Croyle, but with his injury history and lack of p;aying time, if they go solely with him and he gets hurt alot, then they have to start over there too. I would like to see a mixture of free agency and the draft next year to concentrate on O line and QB, then use the rest of the draft for CB and Receiver.

Chiefmanwillcatch
12-03-2007, 02:00 PM
While the drafting has been better it's still not NEngland quality.

chiefscafan
12-03-2007, 02:01 PM
We need to draft a OT and G then sign the guy from pittsburgh that held out. I wish we could trade LJ but his trade value is next to nothing now.

Chris Meck
12-03-2007, 02:13 PM
Well, I think you target Starks and either one of the Indy G's (both are young and skilled). All three have started on a SB winning team. Good players, entering their prime, with rings. Tough to beat that. Indy won't be able to keep both, I don't think, and Starks is definitely leaving Pittsburgh.

I don't care WHAT QB is available in round 1, I wouldn't draft them. You draft a QB in round 1 and you're looking at playing them when, in 2010? What's the point of that?

Brodie's injury history is two ACL's in non-contact situations (repaired, these are often stronger) and one separated shoulder. Now the knee-in-the-back-bruised kidney. I'm really not that worried about it, and I think he's showing the arm, mindset, and leadership skills that you want in a QB. No, I think you have to commit to Brodie because if he's NOT the guy, then you're at least two MORE years away from contending. I think you have to assume he IS the guy and build from there.

IF you can sign Starks and Lilja (both are HUGE upgrades over what we have on the right side now) then you really just need a center; and those aren't really high pick guys all that often.

Just my thoughts; this would be a decent offseason to construct a line that could remain relatively intact for a few years.

Count Alex's Losses
12-03-2007, 02:15 PM
I'm not sure we even want Starks. He's not even a starter in Pittsburgh.

Chris Meck
12-03-2007, 02:17 PM
Oh, by the way, if there's a top flight LT available where we pick (and there very well might be) I'd take him in a heartbeat, and I'd still draft O-linemen whenever they came up on the value board even IF we signed Starks and Lilja.

Bearcat2005
12-03-2007, 02:19 PM
My thoughts exactly, I understand everyones frustration but firing a coach in year 2 of his plan is dumb. I think a NFL coach today should at least get 3 years to see where his decisions go.

Warrior5
12-03-2007, 02:28 PM
This type of season was inevitable.

You can't fix the entire o-line through the draft; the Chiefs must spend the $ to acquire some FA talent. Also, Law & Surtain are nearing culmination.

Here's a short menu of FAs; there will be some young talent available. Lots of teams will be vying for some of these guys, so we'll get to see how serious the Chiefs are about rebuilding before the draft.

POSN..... NAME..... ..........STATUS...AGE/EX.....HT/WT
T Max Starks (Steelers)......... UFA...25/4....6-8/337
OG Alan Faneca (Steelers)......UFA...30/10...6-5/307
RG/T Jake Scott (Colts)..........UFA...26/4.....6-5/295
LG Ryan Lilja (Colts)..............UFA...26/4.....6-2/290
OT Nat Dorsey (Browns)........UFA...24/4.....6-7/335
OT Trai Essex (Steelers)........RFA...24/3.....6-4/324
OG Chris Kemoeatu (Steelers).RFA...24/3.....6-3/344
RT Jordan Gross (Panthers)....UFA...27/5.....6-4/300
OT Sean Locklear (Seahawks)..UFA...26/4.....6-4/308
OG Floyd Womack (Seahawks)..UFA...29/7....6-4/328
LT Travelle Wharton (Panthers) UFA..26/4....6-4/312


CB Asante Samuel (Pats).........UFA...26/5....5-10/185
CB Ken Hamlin (Cowboys)........UFA...26/5....6-2/209
CB Marcus Trufant (Seahawks).UFA...26/5....5-11/197
CB Drayton Florence (Chargers).UFA...26/5...6-0/195
CB Domonique Foxworth (Donks).RFA...24/3...5-11/180
CB Randall Gay (Pats).............UFA....25/4...5-11/190

'Hamas' Jenkins
12-03-2007, 02:40 PM
The Chiefs would be morons to go after any of those CBs aside from Randall Gay.

kc1977
12-03-2007, 02:44 PM
seriously, guys. The Vermeil era left the cupboard empty. Really empty. Like, only LJ and Gonzalez in their prime and nothing on defense other than a surprisingly good Jared Allen.



Yep, hiring a coach whose sole purpose is to prove that he was the mastermind behind the Rams '99 offensive explosion will do that to you.

Talk about a wasted 5 years.

Chris Meck
12-03-2007, 04:00 PM
I'd take any of those linemen from Starks-Essex. In fact, I'll take two. That includes Faneca, as he's still quite good and would be for probably 2 or 3 years. As long as he's not TOO expensive.

And I'd take one of any of those corners, as long as we don't have to pay them as a #1 shutdown corner/type. None of them are, and that's not what's required in this defense.

Chris Meck
12-03-2007, 04:02 PM
My preference would be Starks and Scott.

Starks lost his starting position because he held out and his replacement played well. just saying. He was a starter on the SB winning team. And he's 25.

Valiant
12-03-2007, 04:07 PM
You start next year, with Herm hiring a new OC and then stays hands off.. Kind of what Dungy did in Indy..

As for the draft you draft one of the few best players available regardless of position..(unless there is a player you need that is really close talent wise, ie BPA is a 10, and a OL available that you need is like a 9.2)


Preferably I would like them to change up their OLine to a zone blocking scheme..

As for offense I would like to see a spread WCO, a mixture of what the Pats are doing and traditional WCO... LJ would have to work on his catching a lot more..

WR....WR.................OL,OL,OL,OL,OL,TE,.....................WR
......................................QB
.......................................RB


Would need another WR to replace Kennison, since he will either retire or I would cut him.. I would make a run at Crayton or Bryant Johnson for Kennison's replacement unless we draft another WR in the first two rounds..

With the new O coach and drafting a few more Oline I would still make the push for a few starters.. max Starks, lilja, Jake stock..

On defense I would mainly try and keep getting the front 7 better, because I think a great front 7 can make average CB's look better then they are..

Warrior5
12-03-2007, 04:21 PM
I'd take any of those linemen from Starks-Essex. In fact, I'll take two. That includes Faneca, as he's still quite good and would be for probably 2 or 3 years. As long as he's not TOO expensive.

And I'd take one of any of those corners, as long as we don't have to pay them as a #1 shutdown corner/type. None of them are, and that's not what's required in this defense.

Ditto.

bowener
12-03-2007, 04:59 PM
I think our team can have some good success next year if we overhaul the OL. Lets say CP does nothing in the offseason but scratch his balls, yell at children, and count his money... so we have to draft a LT in the 1st round.... the only plus side to a pile of shit season is we get a Gem of a LT in the top 10!! YAY!! I would like to see Dmac tried for a game/drive/play at RT to see how well he can handle that, if good, move him there and never look back. So then we would have a great (i hope) LT, and a (hopefully) good RT... so much better than we have now already. If Niswanger is a good Center, then that is awesome.. he is young, and big plus, we dont have to use a draft pick for that. Knowing Herm though, he will draft strictly by the BPA mantra he usually does and we will draft Glenn Dorsey in the 1st round... is that bad? I dont know?! I doubt he will still be available at our position (if the season ended today)... depends though on how many we lose and how many teams ahead of us go for the QB's...

bowener
12-03-2007, 05:01 PM
If the Dolphins lose out (could we beat them do you think?), who do they pick? OL, DT? What the hell is wrong with that team anyhow?

Halfcan
12-03-2007, 05:06 PM
Herm has the process underway??? Did you mean- throwing away the Arrowhead mystique-killing our Offense, making a joke out of the city, 5 game losing streak-If that is what you meant-then he is doing a fine job.

Now if Herm can only choke away 4 more games.....

Chris Meck
12-03-2007, 05:32 PM
dude. We HAD to get worse before we can get better. You can't overhaul an entire team and fill each spot with a great player overnight. The defense is pretty close, and the offense has some good skill position talent-just no offensive line.

TEX
12-03-2007, 05:46 PM
I think firing Herm right now and going in another direction is just going to set us back a couple of years again. Herm has his process underway, and to chuck it now means we've suffered for no reason. Switching to a different offensive scheme doesn't make sense because Bowe, Croyle, Gonzo, and Smith all have good skill sets for the Coryell-type offense.
____________________________________________________________

I don't. Firing Herm would only put us back 1 year (if that). A new good coach would be able to pass where we would be with Herm after next season IMO. We're exactly where we all feared we would be once we heard that Herm was coming. Only we got here more quickly than anyone imagined. Don't kid yourself, Herm is part of the problem.

Chris Meck
12-03-2007, 07:23 PM
I disagree.

Changing coaches again is a bad idea, and Gretz's column is spot on, IMO.

Say we fire Herm and hire...Oh, I don't know, someone that wants to run an offense predicated on small, fast receivers.

?

and he hires a defensive coordinator that wants to run an attacking style defense with big, physical linebackers, linemen and cover corners.

Negating what good young personnel we do have.

Stick with the program.

Hydrae
12-03-2007, 07:43 PM
I disagree.

Changing coaches again is a bad idea, and Gretz's column is spot on, IMO.

Say we fire Herm and hire...Oh, I don't know, someone that wants to run an offense predicated on small, fast receivers.

?

and he hires a defensive coordinator that wants to run an attacking style defense with big, physical linebackers, linemen and cover corners.

Negating what good young personnel we do have.

Stick with the program.


That is where the interview process comes in to play. You hire someone who can work with what is here. In other words, a true coach. Not someone who can implement a system but someone who can work within the strengths of the players available.

I don't know that such a thing exists in pro sports these days but this is one of those things that just drives me nuts. Vermeil comes in and within 2 years turns over 2/3 of the roster. That is nuts, teams need some continuity to remain a team and not just a bunch of football players.

DaneMcCloud
12-03-2007, 07:48 PM
making a joke out of the city

No offense but how did Herm "make a joke out of the city"? Dude, come on!

People in Seattle aren't sitting around coffee shops "joking" about Kansas City just because they lost a few football games.

Are you "joking around" about New York City because the Jets are worse than the Chiefs?

Were you "this embarrassed" when the Chiefs were 6-10 in 2001?

chiefbowe82
12-03-2007, 08:07 PM
you guys seriously can't handle a rebuilding year, we've got great young talent, just be patient, i know we're used to getting to that 9 win mark every year, but hold on in the end, we'll have a team we can proudly call ours.

Mr. Laz
12-03-2007, 08:11 PM
blah,blah,blah ... tedious Meck post ... blah,blah,blah ... you guys don't know anything ... blah,blah,blah ... i know more than you blah,blah,blah ... Chiefs fans overreact ... blah,blah,blah ... you're not a true fan like me ... blah,blah,blah.

kc1977
12-03-2007, 08:25 PM
I don't know that such a thing exists in pro sports these days but this is one of those things that just drives me nuts. Vermeil comes in and within 2 years turns over 2/3 of the roster. That is nuts, teams need some continuity to remain a team and not just a bunch of football players.

Vermy is Carl's single-worst mistake of his tenure.

Dayze
12-03-2007, 09:00 PM
The Chiefs would be morons to go after any of those CBs aside from Randall Gay.
:thumb:

I concur, sir.


Also, he has an intangible most do not - the last name "Gay". with a name like that, you'd better be able to play some ball......er wait....play bump and run.....

too many NTTAWWT jokes here.

seriously though..he'd be a good pick up IMO.

Dave Lane
12-03-2007, 09:03 PM
seriously, guys. The Vermeil era left the cupboard empty. Really empty. Like, only LJ and Gonzalez in their prime and nothing on defense other than a surprisingly good Jared Allen.

We were able to do the things we did offensively because of Willie Roaf, Will Shields, and Wiegmann. The two Willies are gone now, and Casey is a shadow of his former self. Green's career basically ended against Cinci. There were no good WR's. No good young OL talent to take over.

Now, I'm not saying that Solari has called the best game in the world, or that Herm hasn't made a lot of questionable game decisions.

I am saying a season like this was inevitable.

In two years, we've gone from a laughing-stock defense to respectable. That took some doing; and really, had to be done. In the meantime, the offense has floundered due to age and injury-but you can't rebuild both sides from scratch simultaneously.

Nonetheless, they've done a decent job of doing exactly that; Bowe certainly looks like the real thing. I think Kolby Smith looks like a great 3rd down back/change of pace runner for a healthy LJ. (anybody see that block he put on "roidman" Merriman where he upended him?) and I think Croyle looks like a guy that if he gets time, can really toss the rock.

The one thing that didn't get done was the offensive line. and it's been
ofFENsive. I'm of the opinion that we're 2 to 3 guys away (depending on Niswanger-C?) from having a good line again, and a good line will suddenly make this offense look entirely different.

A lot of us said we'd tolerate a 4-12 season if we were REALLY rebuilding. Well, we are. So I'm not too upset right now, actually. I think firing Herm right now and going in another direction is just going to set us back a couple of years again. Herm has his process underway, and to chuck it now means we've suffered for no reason. Switching to a different offensive scheme doesn't make sense because Bowe, Croyle, Gonzo, and Smith all have good skill sets for the Coryell-type offense.

I think we can be back in the play-off hunt next year, I really do, and with some good young skill-position players in place.

Just my opinion. Fix the line and stay the course.

I believe you are completely insane. This is the most inane dribble I have ever read.

Dave

Chris Meck
12-04-2007, 09:00 AM
fine.

siberian khatru
12-04-2007, 09:36 AM
I have no problems with enduring a 4-12 rebuilding season.

My fear is that with Carl and Herm, the long road to rebuilding ends with 9-7/10-6 teams that lose in the first round of the playoffs.

Misplaced_Chiefs_Fan
12-04-2007, 10:15 AM
As I've stated previously, it's not the losing that I mind as much as the <b>WAY</b> we're losing.

If we'd started the young guys right off the bat, I'd be cool with that.

If we gave Brodie some chances to be successful, I'd be estatic with our situation.

If I really believed in the coaching staff and saw that we were showing signs of getting better, then losing wouldn't bother me in the least bit.

I expected us to lose (pre-season prediction of 6-10).

What I didn't expect us to do was to look like absolute crap like we do now.

I didn't expect our coaches to suck the damn life out of the team.

I didn't expect us to waste over half a year on a retread QB who has no business even being in the league, much less starting.

I didn't expect an offensive (and I do mean offensive) coordinator and a head coach who will not play to the team's strengths, mismanage the game clock, who don't seem to know when to be conservative and when to "go for the jugular", who consistently throw players under the bus for their own ineptitude and will <b>NOT</b> put this team in positions to win games that <b>are</b> winnable.

I can live with losing.

I'm having more and more trouble living with incompetence. :banghead: :cuss: :banghead:

/end rant

tomahawk kid
12-04-2007, 10:29 AM
I have no problems with enduring a 4-12 rebuilding season.

My fear is that with Carl and Herm, the long road to rebuilding ends with 9-7/10-6 teams that lose in the first round of the playoffs.

If you believe what Holtus is selling on 810, it sounds like Carl has his finger in too many pies.

It's gumming up Herm's "process" , Clark's picking up on it and changes are forthcoming.

Although I hope to see major changes this offseason, I'll believe it when I see it. I won't believe Carl is gone until I see his ass walking out of Arrowhead for the last time.

Chief Faithful
12-04-2007, 10:40 AM
I believe the Chiefs are still two solid drafts from being competitive and three from good. That is why I say this is the year to draft OL as it will take two years for them to develop. No more FA OL as this team needs to get young on the line or we will continue with this cycle of mediocrity.

Aside from OL the Chiefs still need CB's, WR's, a QB & LB, and another DE at minumum. This is way too much to accomplish in one draft, but they need to bite the bullet and develop through the draft. Once these holes are filled they will need a third draft to fill the additional holes that develop between now and then. IMO the Chiefs are 2 or 3 years away from being the team we all want to see.

We are seeing this year exactly how bare DV left the cupboard.

Zouk
12-04-2007, 10:44 AM
I still believe having Croyle sit for half of the season after the disastrous preseason will be good long-term for his development. He himself said that he was a much much better player at week 9 than he was week 1. And he doesn't need to be saddled with all the failure of this horrible offensive line. In week 1, Bowe had not played a game yet after missing a good deal of training camp. Putting Croyle out there with that supporting cast wouldn't have been good for him. At least at this point we know (and the rest of the team knows) that whatever failures occur are not his fault. I think we avoided David Carr, Joey Harrington-level confidence bruising.

kc rush
12-04-2007, 10:56 AM
As I've stated previously, it's not the losing that I mind as much as the <b>WAY</b> we're losing.

If we'd started the young guys right off the bat, I'd be cool with that.

If we gave Brodie some chances to be successful, I'd be estatic with our situation.

If I really believed in the coaching staff and saw that we were showing signs of getting better, then losing wouldn't bother me in the least bit.

I expected us to lose (pre-season prediction of 6-10).

What I didn't expect us to do was to look like absolute crap like we do now.

I didn't expect our coaches to suck the damn life out of the team.

I didn't expect us to waste over half a year on a retread QB who has no business even being in the league, much less starting.

I didn't expect an offensive (and I do mean offensive) coordinator and a head coach who will not play to the team's strengths, mismanage the game clock, who don't seem to know when to be conservative and when to "go for the jugular", who consistently throw players under the bus for their own ineptitude and will <b>NOT</b> put this team in positions to win games that <b>are</b> winnable.

I can live with losing.

I'm having more and more trouble living with incompetence. :banghead: :cuss: :banghead:

/end rant

Agreed. I'm also irritated that the coaches/front office wouldn't admit that this is a rebuilding year off the bat.

Carl couldn't justify raising ticket prices (because we made the playoffs) if we were rebuilding. :# :cuss:

Skip Towne
12-04-2007, 10:57 AM
I hope Clark fires Carl............on the internet.