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View Full Version : New Poll reveals NeoCon views do not represent views of American Jews


BucEyedPea
12-13-2007, 02:24 PM
New Poll reveals how unrepresentative NeoCon views are among American Jews ( http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2007/12/12/ajc_poll/index.html)

American Jewish Committee: 2007 Annual Survey of American Jewish Opinion (http://www.ajc.org/site/c.ijITI2PHKoG/b.3642849/)
Well, this poll doesn't surprise me. It certainly matches my experiences with American Jews in discussing politics with them.

A new survey of American Jewish opinion, released by the American Jewish Committee, demonstrates several important propositions:

(1) Right-wing neocons (the Bill Kristol/Commentary/ AIPAC/Marty Peretz faction) [ I'd add The Weekly Standard ] who relentlessly claim to speak for Israel and for Jews generally hold views that are shared only by a small minority of American Jews;

(2) Viewpoints that are routinely demonized as reflective of animus towards Israel or even anti-Semitism are ones that are held by large majorities of American Jews

(3) Most American Jews oppose U.S. military action in the Middle East -- including both in Iraq and against Iran.

It is beyond dispute that American Jews overwhelmingly oppose core neoconservative foreign policy principles. Hence, in large numbers, they disapprove of the way the U.S. is handling its "campaign against terrorism" (59-31); overwhelmingly believe the U.S. should have stayed out of Iraq (67-27); believe that things are going "somewhat badly" or "very badly" in Iraq (76-23); and believe that the "surge" has either made things worse or has had no impact (68-30).

When asked whether they would support or oppose the United States taking military action against Iran a large majority -- 57-35% -- say they would oppose such action, even if it were being undertaken "to prevent [Iran] from developing nuclear weapons." While Jews hold views on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict which are quite pessimistic about the prospects for Israel's ability to achieve a lasting peace with its "Arab neighbors," even there, a plurality (46-43) supports the establishment of a Palestinian state.

In the realm of U.S. domestic politics, it is even clearer that right-wing neoconservatives are a fringe segment of American Jewish public opinion. By a large margin, American Jews identify as some shade of liberal rather than conservative (43-25), and overwhelmingly identify themselves as Democrats rather than Republicans (58-15). And, most strikingly, by a 3-1 margin (61-21), they believe that Democrats, rather than Republicans, are "more likely to make the right decision about the war in Iraq," and by a similarly lopsided margin (53-30), believe that Democrats are "more likely to make the right decision when it comes to dealing with terrorism." They have overwhelmingly favorable views of the top 3 Democratic presidential candidates, and overwhelmingly negative views of 3 out of the top 4 GOP candidates (Giuliani being the sole exception, where opinion is split).

Contrary to the bottomless obssession which most neocon pundits and office-holders have with All Matters Israel, the principal political concerns of most American Jews have nothing to do with the Middle East. Thus, they identify "economy/jobs" (22) and "health care" (19) -- not Terrorism -- as "the most important problem facing the U.S. today." Still, most American Jews agree that "[c]aring about Israel is a very important part of [their] being a Jew" -- a common, innocuous and indisputable attribute that typically triggers noxious charges of anti-Semitism if pointed out by those who oppose the neoconservative agenda.

One of the defining traits of war-loving neoconservatives is that their unrelenting and exclusive fixation on the Middle East places them loudly at the center of any foreign policy debates. That tenacity -- combined with their reckless exploitation of "anti-Israel" and anti-Semitism accusations as instruments in their political rhetoric and their corresponding, deceitful equation of their own views with being "pro-Israel" -- often casts the appearance that they are some sort of spokespeople for the "pro-Israel" agenda or the Jewish viewpoint.

Manifestly, they are nothing of the sort. Even among American Jews, they comprise only a small minority, and their generally discredited militarism is widely rejected by most Jews as well. It is always worth underscoring these points, which are so frequently (and deliberately) obscured, and this comprehensive poll provides potent -- actually quite conclusive -- evidence for doing so.

KILLER_CLOWN
12-13-2007, 02:46 PM
and we have.... *crickets* from the neocons, ROFL

BucEyedPea
12-13-2007, 02:58 PM
Very true!

How many times have we heard or had it implied that those who disagree with these top NCs, because they're Jewish means we're anti-semitic or believe in the Protocols?

kcfanXIII
12-13-2007, 03:01 PM
neo-conservatives will destroy the GOP. thats all i'll say about that

Chief Faithful
12-13-2007, 03:21 PM
I'll bet fewer than 10% of those surveyed had the same definition of Neo-Con.

BucEyedPea
12-13-2007, 04:00 PM
I'll bet fewer than 10% of those surveyed had the same definition of Neo-Con.
It wasn't necessary to even use the word "NeoCon" if you read the survey...it was a list of policy stands. Those just happen to be the policy stands of the NCs pushing these wars in the ME.


Among the topics covered in the present survey are the campaign against terrorism and the war in Iraq, the Israel-Arab conflict, the attachment of American Jews to Israel, political and social issues in the United States, Jewish perceptions of anti-Semitism, and Jewish identity concerns. Some of the questions appearing in the survey are new; others are drawn from previous American Jewish Committee surveys, including the Annual Survey of American Jewish Opinion carried out in 1997, 1998, 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, and 2006.

KILLER_CLOWN
12-13-2007, 04:02 PM
Originally Posted by Chief Faithful
I'll bet fewer than 10% of those surveyed had the same definition of Neo-Con.

It wasn't necessary to even use the word "NeoCon" if you read the survey...it was a list of policy stands. Those just happen to be the policy stands of the NCs pushing these wars in the ME.

sounds like common sense to me.

Chief Henry
12-13-2007, 05:12 PM
Look inside the numbers and you'll find why the poll results look the way they do...

How do you describe yourself:

Extremely Liberal 4%
Liberal 23%
somewhat liberal 16%
moderate 31%
somewhat conservative 9%
conservative 13%
extremely conservative 3%
not sure 3%


What political party do you affiliate with:

Republican 15 %
Democrate 58 %
Independant 26 %
not sure 2 %


So this poll is worth what exactly to you ?
With scewed partisian polling tactics like this,
you think this poll is relevent ? Have fun
with your circle jerk over this poll. Because
it doesn't mean more than .02 cents.

You call this a COMPREHENSIVE Poll ???

Adept Havelock
12-13-2007, 05:19 PM
Look inside the numbers and you'll find why the poll results look the way they do...

How do you describe yourself:

Extremely Liberal 4%
Liberal 23%
somewhat liberal 16%
moderate 31%
somewhat conservative 9%
conservative 13%
extremely conservative 3%
not sure 3%


What political party do you affiliate with:

Republican 15 %
Democrate 58 %
Independant 26 %
not sure 2 %


So this poll is worth what exactly to you ?
With scewed partisian polling tactics like this,
you think this poll is relevent ? Have fun
with your circle jerk over this poll. Because
it doesn't mean more than .02 cents.

You call this a COMPREHENSIVE Poll ???

It's a poll trying to analyze the stances of American Jews.

Is the breakdown skewed? Possibly. Do you have anything showing how many American Jews are members of the GOP/Dems/Independents? Without that data, you can't know if it's skewed or not. :shrug:

Or are you silly enough to believe that American Jews are a clear-cut 50/50 split (or 33/33/33, allowing for independents), which seems to be what you are saying would make the poll more "fair".

Take a statistics class when you sign up for the logic course you so desperately need.

You've made a little progress. At least you're not trumpeting that people need to prove a negative this time. LMAO

Chief Henry
12-13-2007, 05:28 PM
It's a poll trying to analyze the stances of American Jews.

Is the breakdown skewed? Possibly. Do you have anything showing how many American Jews are members of the GOP/Dems/Independents? Without that data, you can't know if it's skewed or not. :shrug:

Or are you silly enough to believe that American Jews are a clear-cut 50/50 split (or 33/33/33, allowing for independents), which seems to be what you are saying would make the poll more "fair".

Take a statistics class when you sign up for the logic course you so desperately need.

You've made a little progress. At least you're not trumpeting that people need to prove a negative this time. LMAO


Its common knowlege that most Jewish people are democrats.
So the results of the poll doesn't surprise me in the least.

But any comment from you is worth about .02 maybe .03 at the most
LMAO

Adept Havelock
12-13-2007, 05:30 PM
Its common knowlege that most Jewish people are democrats.
So the results of the poll doesn't surprise me in the least.


Then why the little temper-tantrum about the "partisan" poll sample? If that's the actual breakdown (as you seem to be conceding) how can it be "partisan"? Unless you are making a Colbert-esque claim that reality has a partisan bias. ROFL

I suppose you felt like displaying your ignorance of simple logic and statistics. Hey, if it makes you happy...keep it up. It's funny as hell to me, and doesn't take nearly as long as watching an episode of Two and a Half Men. Thanks for the guffaw. :thumb:

Jenson71
12-13-2007, 05:34 PM
Its common knowlege that most Jewish people are democrats.
So the results of the poll doesn't surprise me in the least.

But any comment from you is worth about .02 maybe .03 at the most
LMAO

In that case, I will second Adept Havelock's clear and correct observation, in hope that we can reach a nickel or dime.

Adept Havelock
12-13-2007, 05:35 PM
In that case, I will second Adept Havelock's clear and correct observation, in hope that we can reach a nickel or dime.


Heh. Who knew a few lines of electronic text had cash value?

Chief Henry
12-13-2007, 05:39 PM
Then why the little temper-tantrum about the "partisan" poll sample? If that's the actual breakdown (as you seem to be conceding) how can it be "partisan"? Unless you are making a Colbert-esque claim that reality has a partisan bias. ROFL

I suppose you felt like displaying your ignorance of simple logic and statistics. Hey, if it makes you happy...keep it up. It's funny as hell to me. LMAO


Your very easily amused Einstein. But we all know why this poll
was put on the board. Its not unusaul at all for Jewish people
to not like what Republicans do. This poll has no real significance, unless your a Jew or someone that suffers from BDS, like yourself
LMAO.

Nightfyre
12-13-2007, 05:40 PM
Your very easily amused Einstein. But we all know why this poll
was put on the board. Its not unusaul at all for Jewish people
to not like what Republicans do. This poll has no real significance, unless your a Jew or someone that suffers from BDS, like yourself
LMAO.
What would Jews care if Iran had a nuke, amirite? ROFL

Chief Henry
12-13-2007, 05:42 PM
What would Jews care if Iran had a nuke, amirite? ROFL


What would Jews care if Iran had a nuke ?

Thats a difficult one.


See you boys in the morning. A 4th grade Christmas show awaits.

Nightfyre
12-13-2007, 05:45 PM
What would Jews care if Iran had a nuke ?

Thats a difficult one.


See you boys in the morning. A 4th grade Christmas show awaits.
The point I am trying to illustrate is that it is an issue that might supersede partisan politics. :shrug:

patteeu
12-13-2007, 06:24 PM
Conservative Jews don't use landlines and are therefore underrepresented by traditional polling. [/Ron Paulberg]

patteeu
12-13-2007, 06:27 PM
Very true!

How many times have we heard or had it implied that those who disagree with these top NCs, because they're Jewish means we're anti-semitic or believe in the Protocols?

What on Earth makes you think that just because a majority of American Jews lean left (and, predictably, share many of the same opinions of other left leaning Americans), it means that haters of Jewish Neocons and/or Israel can't come to those positions from a basis of antisemitism?

I don't detect the logical connection between the two.

patteeu
12-13-2007, 06:38 PM
and we have.... *crickets* from the neocons, ROFL

Patience, young Paul worshiper. This thread was only 22 minutes old when you posted this and it happened to be at a time when "the neocons" were having an international cyber meeting where we were discussing new and innovative ways to take away your freedoms and plotting strategy in our ongoing effort to secretly spread Trotskyite ideas using Straussian methods.

BucEyedPea
12-13-2007, 07:00 PM
What on Earth makes you think that just because a majority of American Jews lean left (and, predictably, share many of the same opinions of other left leaning Americans), it means that haters of Jewish Neocons and/or Israel can't come to those positions from a basis of antisemitism?

I don't detect the logical connection between the two.
That's because there is no logical connection between the two but the NCs think there is. But really haters of "Jewish NCs?" It's their policy not their ethnicity that's the issue, especially when they are a minority in the NCs. By the same token, why aren't those who disagree with left/liberal Jews not coming from an anti-semitic viewpoint such as yourself? Works both ways pat.

patteeu
12-13-2007, 07:43 PM
That's because there is no logical connection between the two but the NCs think there is. But really haters of "Jewish NCs?" It's their policy not their ethnicity that's the issue, especially when they are a minority in the NCs.

For some it may be the policy, but I have no doubt that for others it's the ethnicity.

The original neocons were mostly jews (Podhoretz, Kristol, etc.). The core of the current batch of neocons who influenced this President's policy were jews (Perle, Wolfowitz, Feith, Adelman, Kristol, etc.).

By the same token, why aren't those who disagree with left/liberal Jews not coming from an anti-semitic viewpoint such as yourself? Works both ways pat.

No, it doesn't really work both ways because there is nothing particularly Jewish about being against the so-called neo-conservative policies. By contrast there are two things that are particularly Jewish involved in the pro-neocon policy: the ethnicity of many of it's leading proponents and the special way in which Israeli security is related to that policy. That combination attracts the attention of anti-semites who speculate that Jews are usurping US foreign policy for the benefit of a Jewish state.

KILLER_CLOWN
12-13-2007, 07:44 PM
Patience, young Paul worshiper. This thread was only 22 minutes old when you posted this and it happened to be at a time when "the neocons" were having an international cyber meeting where we were discussing new and innovative ways to take away your freedoms and plotting strategy in our ongoing effort to secretly spread Trotskyite ideas using Straussian methods.

sorry from what has been posted here by the neocons i still hear *crickets*

patteeu
12-13-2007, 07:47 PM
sorry from what has been posted here by the neocons i still hear *crickets*

That leads me to two thoughts:

1) Maybe you have a cricket in your ear.

2) I'm not sure why you think neocons would find this poll interesting or important to comment about. It sounds like maybe you've fallen for the same faulty logic that confused BucEyedPea.

StcChief
12-13-2007, 07:50 PM
who are they asking? The old Jew coots in Miami from NYC that couldn't figure out to run a voting machine.

KILLER_CLOWN
12-13-2007, 07:52 PM
That leads me to two thoughts:

1) Maybe you have a cricket in your ear.

2) I'm not sure why you think neocons would find this poll interesting or important to comment about. It sounds like maybe you've fallen for the same faulty logic that confused BucEyedPea.

The fact that you speak for the Jewish people? right i forget you were elected to speak for us.

patteeu
12-13-2007, 08:09 PM
The fact that you speak for the Jewish people? right i forget you were elected to speak for us.

I'm not sure how your response fits with my post so I'm at a loss for a response. I'm not sure why you think I speak for Jewish people.

Adept Havelock
12-13-2007, 08:13 PM
I'm not sure how your response fits with my post so I'm at a loss for a response. I'm not sure why you think I speak for Jewish people.


Oh, did I forget to tell you? We had a meeting. You're it.

patteeu
12-13-2007, 08:21 PM
Oh, did I forget to tell you? We had a meeting. You're it.

LMAO

KILLER_CLOWN
12-13-2007, 08:21 PM
I'm not sure how your response fits with my post so I'm at a loss for a response. I'm not sure why you think I speak for Jewish people.

Oh i dunno, maybe the fact that you say we have to defend Israel and then you support torture and killing on a wholesale level.

patteeu
12-13-2007, 08:24 PM
Oh i dunno, maybe the fact that you say we have to defend Israel and then you support torture and killing on a wholesale level.

Is that what you think the person speaking for the Jewish people would say?

KILLER_CLOWN
12-13-2007, 08:31 PM
Is that what you think the person speaking for the Jewish people would say?

You don't think Hitler approved of torture and killing?

The end does not justify the means.

patteeu
12-13-2007, 08:41 PM
You don't think Hitler approved of torture and killing?

The end does not justify the means.

Forgive me, but I may be having a little trouble following you here. Are you saying that Hitler was the guy speaking for the Jewish people or are you asking me a question on a different topic?

If it's the latter, yes I think it's been established that he did approve of some types of torture and killing.

Seriously Killer, maybe you could just take a deep breath and post a clear statement that contains all the essential information for me to understand what you're talking about instead of the cryptic one or two line non sequiturs.

KILLER_CLOWN
12-13-2007, 08:50 PM
Forgive me, but I may be having a little trouble following you here. Are you saying that Hitler was the guy speaking for the Jewish people or are you asking me a question on a different topic?

If it's the latter, yes I think it's been established that he did approve of some types of torture and killing.

Seriously Killer, maybe you could just take a deep breath and post a clear statement that contains all the essential information for me to understand what you're talking about instead of the cryptic one or two line non sequiturs.

I am speaking to the fact that you totally support a war against Iran, as a preemptive strike, and you believe that torture is an acceptable practice all of which are propagated by the neocons, correct? It's quite possible that the Jewish people would not condone either one. ;)
I may also point out that I myself have Jewish blood in me, maybe that makes it a little bit clearer?

I won't even answer the Hitler question, for obvious reasons.

patteeu
12-13-2007, 09:13 PM
I am speaking to the fact that you totally support a war against Iran, as a preemptive strike, and you believe that torture is an acceptable practice all of which are propagated by the neocons, correct? It's quite possible that the Jewish people would not condone either one. ;)
I may also point out that I myself have Jewish blood in me, maybe that makes it a little bit clearer?

I won't even answer the Hitler question, for obvious reasons.

I don't know where you came up with the idea that I support a pre-emptive strike against Iran. My position is that our diplomacy has a much better chance of success if Iran believes that a pre-emptive strike is very possible. I think we should make it a top priority to prevent Iran from developing a nuclear weapon capability, but I think we are much better off if we can do that without an attack than if we are forced to use a military option. I'm willing to leave the decision about whether or not an actual strike should take place to people I trust on issues like this (e.g. Dick Cheney).

I don't believe that the US should torture people. I can't conceive of a circumstance where I'd approve of skinning someone alive or stretching someone on a rack, for example. I don't have a problem with waterboarding given the safeguards that seem to be in place under this administration. Needless to say, I don't consider waterboarding to be the kind of activity that I think should be banned as torture, but I do think it is extreme and should be used very sparingly and only when other lesser techniques have not been successful on targets who we have strong confidence in the belief that they have vital information. Three people in 6 years of war doesn't sound excessive to me.

It's quite possible that Jewish people would be split on both of these issues and it's also quite possible that what Jewish people think about these issues has absolutely no bearing on what I think about them.

KILLER_CLOWN
12-13-2007, 10:49 PM
I don't know where you came up with the idea that I support a pre-emptive strike against Iran. My position is that our diplomacy has a much better chance of success if Iran believes that a pre-emptive strike is very possible. I think we should make it a top priority to prevent Iran from developing a nuclear weapon capability, but I think we are much better off if we can do that without an attack than if we are forced to use a military option. I'm willing to leave the decision about whether or not an actual strike should take place to people I trust on issues like this (e.g. Dick Cheney).

I don't believe that the US should torture people. I can't conceive of a circumstance where I'd approve of skinning someone alive or stretching someone on a rack, for example. I don't have a problem with waterboarding given the safeguards that seem to be in place under this administration. Needless to say, I don't consider waterboarding to be the kind of activity that I think should be banned as torture, but I do think it is extreme and should be used very sparingly and only when other lesser techniques have not been successful on targets who we have strong confidence in the belief that they have vital information. Three people in 6 years of war doesn't sound excessive to me.

It's quite possible that Jewish people would be split on both of these issues and it's also quite possible that what Jewish people think about these issues has absolutely no bearing on what I think about them.

finally some sanity, :)

I guess we are totally opposite on whether torture should be allowed, or wether it even works. Waterboarding is torture, the House agrees at least in a slight majority.

patteeu
12-14-2007, 07:07 AM
finally some sanity, :)

I guess we are totally opposite on whether torture should be allowed, or wether it even works. Waterboarding is torture, the House agrees at least in a slight majority.

No we don't disagree about whether torture should be allowed, we just disagree on how to define torture. The executive branch of our government agrees with me unanimously.

I don't know how you can continue to deny that harsh interrogation (whether torture or otherwise) works. There is far more solid evidence that it works than there is for Ron Paul's theory of neo-isolationism, for example, but I bet you don't have doubts about that.

BucEyedPea
12-14-2007, 08:28 AM
Its common knowlege that most Jewish people are democrats.
I think that's because they side with underdogs more often, having been persecuted throughout history. There's nothing wrong with that. Note that this has been by many groups: pagans, Christians ( done the most to them) and by Muslims.

Its not unusaul at all for Jewish people
to not like what Republicans do.
I wouldn't go this far though either. Many are good businessmen too.
I have had liberal Jewish friends ( also good businessmen) and now have Republican Jewish friends. In fact three are staunch conservative Republicans and huge Paul supporters. One, a big donor.

This poll has no real significance, unless your a Jew or someone that suffers from BDS, like yourself.LMAO.
The significance in putting it up, at least from my pov, was to directly address this phenomena that the head NCs ( policy wonks, media pundits, writers and advisors to VP) and some on this board, have used the anti-semitic charge against those of us against our current ME policies. The NC writers and pundits have been notorious in calling out other authors on this war, who don't agree with them, anti-semitic and or conspiracy theorists ( as in believing in the Protocols) ESPECIALLY when it's pointed out that it's AIPAC that has been pushing these wars. AIPAC, as I posted before, does not represent the opinions of American Jews here. I posted that before, and this seems to confirm it.

patteeu
12-14-2007, 08:33 AM
The significance in putting it up, at least from my pov, was to directly address this phenomena that the head NCs ( policy wonks, media pundits, writers and advisors to VP) and some on this board, have used the anti-semitic charge against those of us against our current ME policies. The NC writers and pundits have been notorious in calling out other authors on this war, who don't agree with them, anti-semitic and or conspiracy theorists ( as in believing in the Protocols) ESPECIALLY when it's pointed out that it's AIPAC that has been pushing these wars. AIPAC, as I posted before, does not represent the opinions of American Jews here. I posted that before, and this seems to confirm it.

Except that it doesn't "directly address this phenomena" at all as I've pointed out. It completely misses the point.

BucEyedPea
12-14-2007, 08:52 AM
In your opinion. I never expected you to see it anyway.

patteeu
12-14-2007, 09:00 AM
In your opinion. I never expected you to see it anyway.

It's not really just an opinion. It's a fact. There's no "it" to see.

KILLER_CLOWN
12-14-2007, 09:03 AM
It's not really just an opinion. It's a fact. There's no "it" to see.

So do you see Giuliani as conservative as well? just trying to see what facts your supporting here.

patteeu
12-14-2007, 09:12 AM
So do you see Giuliani as conservative as well? just trying to see what facts your supporting here.

You are the King of the Non Sequitur.

"As well" as what or who? Are you referring to the other thread where I disabused you of the false impression that I think GWBush is an ultra conservative?

I don't see Rudy Giuliani as a movement conservative. I think he'd be a good CiC though and I'm comfortable enough with his economic positions and his promises wrt judicial nominations that I could vote for him. If we weren't in the middle of a GWoT, I'd probably be supporting a different candidate right now.

I don't really see how any of this has anything to do with my disagreement with BucEyedPea about whether her OP has any relevance to the issue of anti-semites opposed to neoconservative policy though.