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View Full Version : Liberty Dollar update - Government theives get aggressive


Taco John
12-14-2007, 10:21 AM
Friday, December 14, 2007

Dear Liberty Dollar Supporters:

Dark Moment for Liberty Dollar

I am shocked to inform you that we have learned that the FBI is moving aggressively to forfeit "their" seizure for auction immediately!

If that does not shock and alarm you, you are truly asleep! If there has ever been a time to support the Liberty Dollar with an Arrest Dollar and a donation… it is now!

Due to higher than anticipated demand for the Arrest Dollar, a printable order from as been created to simplify the process. It is available HERE.

This is so shocking that it makes one wonder what is going on. Unfortunately, the draconian raid/seizure/forfeiture by this government is SOP - Standard Operating Procedures! In fact, the more you learn, the worse it is. Once raided, the victim need not be arrested or even charged with a crime before his/her property can be forfeited and auctioned. This is so common that the police often refer to the seized property as "their" property. After all, like any common thief, they stole it… its "theirs"! Or so they would have you think!

Wait! It is not quite that simple with the Liberty Dollar. You see, I considered this dirty, stinking government trick when I designed and developed the Warehouse Receipt (WR) program. And although I didn't think they would really be this bad or simply ignorant… there is no doubt now. For that reason I am not the signatory on the Warehouse Receipt. Nor could I sign the WR because I am not the Warehouse Official. I don't even work for the warehouse. Remember the warehouse is totally independent and the official issuer of the warehouse receipt. NORFED, Liberty Services, myself, everybody who uses them are simply distributors of the receipts.

But the worst news is "economic persecution". Now we have to fight for your property… with nothing because they took everything in the raid. If we hadn't received some donations to get a new computer, we wouldn't even be able to send out this cry for help. This is very serious!

The Search/Seizure Warrants were for property at specific addresses. The property they seized at Sunshine backed the legal, signed Warehouse Receipts. That property was, and still is, owned by the bearers of the warehouse receipts and the digital Liberty Dollar holders. That is your property that they are trying to steal!

So in all fairness, I don't think Agent Andy and the FBI who raided the warehouse at Sunshine Mint know what they are doing. Yes, they can certainly be more damaging than a village idiot, but they may not know much more. It is obvious that they don't understand how a warehouse receipt program works. Except for my personal account at Sunshine, none of the confiscated material at Sunshine Mint was my property. It was YOURS!

Now! Are you going to let the US government steal your property?!
Click HERE to sign up for the Class Action Lawsuit.

You did nothing illegal! You heard about the new "inflation proof" currency and decided to check it out on line at www.LibertyDollar.org. You did your own "due diligence". You read quotes by the government that the Liberty Dollar was legal and that it was not counterfeit. Many of you even called the Fulfillment Office to check out the new currency. Then you made an informed decision to exchange some of your depreciating US dollars for some appreciating gold and silver based Liberty Dollars in specie, paper warehouse receipts and digital form.

Owning gold and silver in any form is not illegal! Over 500,000 individual legal binding warehouse receipts have been issued over the past ten years. Over 25,000+ individuals have visited our site and gotten Liberty Dollars. Neither you nor I are guilty.

Nor did you violate Title 18, Section 486 either. Even US Mint Director Edmond C. Moy acknowledged in a letter to a US Senator that the paper warehouse receipts were not illegal. Section 486 only concerns "use" in metal form. You were not even using the gold and silver. Your property, your metal was stored in the warehouse. You are not guilty. You are a victim!

The gold and silver seized from the issuing warehouse was not the property of the Liberty Services, Liberty Dollar, myself, or even the warehouse... it remains the property of the bearer warehouse receipt holders. It is YOUR property. To date 3,086 people have signed up to be a party to the Lawsuit and GET THEIR PROPERTY BACK.

I ask again: Are you going to let the US government steal your property?!

As bad as all that is, the precious metals industry should be very concerned because if the government can confiscate our gold and silver, they can confiscate theirs. Any raid and liquidation of a private, independent gold and silver warehouse sets an extremely dangerous precedent by this damn government. Where is ICTA - Industry Council for Tangible Assets when we need them?

Now hear this! The government is moving aggressively right now to steal your property!! Please join the Lawsuit to recover the wrongful seizure of your property. If you have not signed up for the Wrongful Seizure Lawsuit (Class Action Lawsuit) do it NOW. It is the only way to get your property back. Please take action immediately! Click HERE to sign up!

Clarification on the Class Action Lawsuit. We have referred to the lawsuit to recover the wrongfully seized property of the Warehouse Receipts and the digital Liberty Dollar holders, as a Class Action Lawsuit. But as we already have 3111 names of the injured parties, this is not a class action lawsuit. We plan to list everybody by name on the lawsuit. We want the judge to see how many people the US government has injured. It is important for the judge to know that thousands of good people from all over the United States, who committed no crime, have been injured and need immediate restitution. We have now renamed the lawsuit to Wrongful Seizure Lawsuit.

Please read the affidavit to establish "Probable Cause" for the Search and Seizure Warrants and ask yourself, "Where is the crime? When did it happen? Where? Who is the injured party?" http://www.libertydollar.org/legal/pdf/libertyaffidavit.pdf

In Alert #4 I mentioned The Soviet-Style Attack on NORFED by Jacob Hornberger. This excellent commentary is available at: http://www.fff.org/comment/com0711j.asp

Another excellent commentary, Gestapo raid on coin-producing enterprise by Dr. Richard H. Timberlake, noted monetary economist and expert on the Fed, has been posted at: http://www.libertydollar.org/commentary/pdfs/1196838996.pdf.

Dozens of great commentaries are available on the Comment Page at: http://www.libertydollar.org/ld/legal/raid_commentary.htm

Thank you for the compliments on getting the digital eLibertyDollar up and running. Please send your digital donations to: Donation@LibertyDollar.org .

While we accept digital Liberty Dollar for donation, it is those damn non-Federal non-Reserve IOU Notes that are needed for the legal defense. Physical Liberty Dollars in paper and digital form that we can auction on eBay for more depreciating FRNs would be greatly appreciated too.

We continue to have a problem getting a bank account open. For now, please send all checks and money orders simply made out to BERNARD.

BIG Thanks for your donations. I apologize that I simply do not have time to respond to all the letters and good wishes. But please keep including the letters. It is good to know you are aware that we are fighting for you and your property. You did nothing wrong!

Orders for Arrest Dollars are very appreciated too. A newly created order from is available HERE. Remember they will only be available until I am arrested. So if you want a specially hallmarked Arrest Dollar… please send order now. I have no idea when I will be arrested.

Now as we face the greatest monetary challenge since the Revolutionary War, lets work together to create a free and independent currency that provides us with "just weights and measures". We should not be ripped off by the government money!

Please support the Liberty Dollar with an Arrest Dollar and a donation. Sign up for the Wrongful Seizure Lawsuit today! Please don't let the government steal your money and drive the Liberty Dollar out of business.

BIG thanks for all the prayers, letters and donations we have received!!!

Every donation counts! Thank you!!

Bernard von NotHaus
Monetary Architect/Editor

patteeu
12-14-2007, 10:45 AM
While we accept digital Liberty Dollar for donation, it is those damn non-Federal non-Reserve IOU Notes that are needed for the legal defense.

LMAO

And "Arrest Dollars"? Hey, maybe some of our customers will fall for this twice!

Mr. Kotter
12-14-2007, 10:52 AM
Paulite zealots are getting what they deserve.... ROFL

Taco John
12-14-2007, 10:54 AM
LMAO

And "Arrest Dollars"? Hey, maybe some of our customers will fall for this twice!


Fall for what? Gold is gold...

Cochise
12-14-2007, 10:54 AM
What a great investment.

patteeu
12-14-2007, 10:56 AM
Fall for what? Gold is gold...

Can you get an ounce of "Arrest Dollar" gold for the same price you can get an ounce of Krugerrands or bullion?

Ultra Peanut
12-14-2007, 10:57 AM
On the bright side, they've actually provided some evidence that they didn't make the whole "we got raided" thing up to fleece more fools from their non-gold standard backed money.

Taco John
12-14-2007, 11:02 AM
Can you get an ounce of "Arrest Dollar" gold for the same price you can get an ounce of Krugerrands or bullion?


I haven't checked the price of the Arrest Dollar, but the original coins that the government stole sold like Krugerrands... Sold for spot with a slight markup to cover costs.

Cochise
12-14-2007, 11:18 AM
I don't have any sympathy for this clown. The DOJ said more than a year ago that what he was doing was illegal, and he continued to take money from people he had good reason to believe would lose all their money on the e-dollars and paper currency if there was any. For him to ask them for more now is just absurd.

In some ways this resembles MLM... You buy in by paying for stock from someone up the line, and your hope of gain rests in turning that inventory around again to others who want to buy into the system. If you have the coins you could gain by holding the items for a long time I guess, if/until the dollar depreciates below the premium on the precious metal you paid, but even then to realize the money you have to sell them to someone else and buy back into the regular US dollar.

It's all quite confusing, but after the pronouncement by the DOJ that it was illegal, if this were a stock it would have dropped off the map, like a pharm company whose key drug doesn't get approval. The risk made it a foolhardy investment. Unless you have the coins, in which case it seems like just paying an unnecessary premium on gold or silver.

Taco John
12-14-2007, 11:21 AM
I don't have any sympathy for this clown. The DOJ said more than a year ago that what he was doing was illegal

You don't have the facts. There is nothing illegal about this. At the very least, he should have his day in court before they claim his property as their own. In fact, he hasn't even been arrested or charged with anything to my knowledge.

It amazes me the lack of respect that so-called conservatives around here have for property rights.

patteeu
12-14-2007, 11:34 AM
I haven't checked the price of the Arrest Dollar, but the original coins that the government stole sold like Krugerrands... Sold for spot with a slight markup to cover costs.

You left out "profit". I'd be interested to see the profit margin of the two side by side. I suspect that the Liberty Dollar folks were able to squeeze a bit more out of their customers than the Krugerrand folks.

patteeu
12-14-2007, 11:36 AM
At the very least, he should have his day in court before they claim his property as their own.

I do agree with that. I forgot to mention it because as much as I despise the forfeiture laws and practices of our government, that thought was overshadowed by the audacity of this guy trying to re-fleece his already fleeced customers.

Taco John
12-14-2007, 11:38 AM
You left out "profit". I'd be interested to see the profit margin of the two side by side. I suspect that the Liberty Dollar folks were able to squeeze a bit more out of their customers than the Krugerrand folks.



I consider "profit" part of costs. But your empty and baseless suspicion is noted. You just want to be a contrarian. There's no principle in what you're saying.

You're increasingly turning into a liberal in your argument style.

Cochise
12-14-2007, 11:41 AM
You don't have the facts. There is nothing illegal about this. At the very least, he should have his day in court before they claim his property as their own. In fact, he hasn't even been arrested or charged with anything to my knowledge.

It amazes me the lack of respect that so-called conservatives around here have for property rights.

I didn't say a word about the seizure or property rights or anything else. I don't think his property should be liquidated before the legal proceedings are carried out.

I called the guy a borderline crook for continuing to take money in when he knew that the DOJ said it appeared to violate title 18 and was likely to act.

I don't think this meets the definition of a security, but if it did this might constitute securities fraud, because he knew or should have known that investors were going to lose their money and egregiously misrepresented it as a safe investment.

banyon
12-14-2007, 11:44 AM
I consider "profit" part of costs. But your empty and baseless suspicion is noted. You just want to be a contrarian. There's no principle in what you're saying.

You're increasingly turning into a liberal in your argument style.

Keep trying patteeu, you only have a little ways to go to reach "socialist". I don't think you'll ever catch me at "Marxist" though.

patteeu
12-14-2007, 11:45 AM
I consider "profit" part of costs. But your empty and baseless suspicion is noted. You just want to be a contrarian. There's no principle in what you're saying.

You're increasingly turning into a liberal in your argument style.

:spock: What is empty or baseless about my suspicion? There is a principle in what I'm saying. The principle is that when a guy is trying to sell you alternative money because he's desperate to get his hand on real money, you should run away.

Adept Havelock
12-14-2007, 11:48 AM
:spock: What is empty or baseless about my suspicion? There is a principle in what I'm saying. The principle is that when a guy is trying to sell you alternative money because he's desperate to get his hand on real money, you should run away.

Sounds logical to me. Especially when the guy doing it has a moniker one letter from the NutHouse. :shrug:

It's been a long time since I took an accounting course, but I don't recall ever combining "profit" with "costs". Granted, my memory could well have faded over the years.

Taco John
12-14-2007, 11:50 AM
:spock: What is empty or baseless about my suspicion?



The fact that you have absolutely no facts to found it on... just that minor little thing... :rolleyes:

Amnorix
12-14-2007, 11:50 AM
I don't think this meets the definition of a security, but if it did this might constitute securities fraud, because he knew or should have known that investors were going to lose their money and egregiously misrepresented it as a safe investment.

FYI it may be a security. The definition of security is almost absurdly broad.

Amnorix
12-14-2007, 11:51 AM
If this whole thing was legit, and the person selling these things REALLY believed what he said:

WHY was he accepting those horrible federal reserve notes in exchange for this awesome currency?

Adept Havelock
12-14-2007, 11:52 AM
If this whole thing was legit, and the person selling these things REALLY believed what he said:

WHY was he accepting those horrible federal reserve notes in exchange for this awesome currency?

Out of the goodness of his heart, of course!

patteeu
12-14-2007, 11:53 AM
Keep trying patteeu, you only have a little ways to go to reach "socialist". I don't think you'll ever catch me at "Marxist" though.

I'm not sure what it means to have a liberal-like argument style. One thing I do know though is that it's been a long time since I've supported any politician as liberal as the guy Taco was pimping just a few months ago.

banyon
12-14-2007, 11:53 AM
TJ fix your sig. (http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showpost.php?p=4453116&postcount=13)

I am having trouble taking what you say seriously looking at that every time you post. :)

patteeu
12-14-2007, 11:55 AM
The fact that you have absolutely no facts to found it on... just that minor little thing... :rolleyes:

I do have the vague recollection of whatever was posted about the markup in your previous thread on this topic. It's not important enough for me to bother looking it up, but if you want to prove my "baseless" suspicion wrong you're welcome to do so. Until then, you're lack of any rebuttal whatsoever is noted.

Taco John
12-14-2007, 11:56 AM
I do have the vague recollection of whatever was posted about the markup in your previous thread on this topic. It's not important enough for me to bother looking it up, but if you want to prove my "baseless" suspicion wrong you're welcome to do so. Until then, you're lack of any rebuttal whatsoever is noted.


Pointing out that you lack any facts is rebuttal enough to satisfy me.

patteeu
12-14-2007, 12:04 PM
Pointing out that you lack any facts is rebuttal enough to satisfy me.

OK, I give in to the pressure. According to the "Methods of investing in gold (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methods_of_investing_in_gold)" wiki page:

Buying gold coins is a popular way of holding gold. Typically bullion coins are priced according to their weight, with little or no premium above the gold price. Among the most popular bullion gold coins are the South African Krugerrand, the Canadian Gold Maple Leaf, the American Gold Eagle, the American Gold Buffalo, and the Australian Gold Nugget, all of which contain exactly one troy ounce of gold each.

And from your original Liberty Dollar thread (http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=174565&page=2&pp=80):

The gold coins generally sell for about $800 (I believe they mark it up 5%). They have become rare items now, however, and thus their value has shot up like any rare coin.

I've been doing a lot of research on rare coins lately. Seems like this isn't actually anything out of the ordinary.

:rolleyes:

Taco John
12-14-2007, 12:06 PM
And?

Taco John
12-14-2007, 12:11 PM
10 Krugerrands selling for $815 against a spot price of $791...

http://www.onlygold.com/Coins/SouthAfricanKrugerrandsFullScreen.asp

Taco John
12-14-2007, 12:12 PM
Canada Maple sells for $840 against a spot price of $791

http://www.onlygold.com/Coins/CanadianMapleLeafsFullScreen.asp

Taco John
12-14-2007, 12:13 PM
One ounce gold bullion sells for $840 against a spot price of $791

http://www.onlygold.com/Coins/OneOunceCoinsFullScreen.asp

Cochise
12-14-2007, 12:15 PM
General question. How do you turn gold coins into cash? Who do you sell them to? Do they pay the full spot price?

I'm thinking of other businesses that buy things like collectibles to sell again, usually they do not pay market price.

Taco John
12-14-2007, 12:15 PM
US Government Gold Eagles (not a full ounce) sell at $846 against a spot price of $791

http://www.onlygold.com/Coins/Double_Eagle_FS.asp

Iowanian
12-14-2007, 12:43 PM
I've got an entire chest full of Monopoly Money and a fist full of McBucks if you'd like to get rid of your useless cash for a new currency.

HHHHrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr




I wonder if there was a single catalyst that pushed Taco over the "batshit crazy line". Maybe a fall onto the cranium from an elevated position? Lead based personal lubricant poisoning?

Taco John
12-14-2007, 12:48 PM
I'm not sure when owning gold made someone batshit crazy, but if it does, I'm ok with that.

Iowanian
12-14-2007, 12:51 PM
Owning gold isn't crazy.

You, however are Leaping into Lake KooKoo.

9-11, ronpaul, fakemoney.....hrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

Taco John
12-14-2007, 12:55 PM
*disinterested shrug*

patteeu
12-14-2007, 12:57 PM
And?

And now my suspicion is no longer baseless.

10 Krugerrands selling for $815 against a spot price of $791...

http://www.onlygold.com/Coins/SouthAfricanKrugerrandsFullScreen.asp

Even less so now that you've confirmed it. The 5% premium for a Liberty Dollar would have put it's price at $830.55. Sucker.

Canada Maple sells for $840 against a spot price of $791

http://www.onlygold.com/Coins/CanadianMapleLeafsFullScreen.asp

One ounce gold bullion sells for $840 against a spot price of $791

http://www.onlygold.com/Coins/OneOunceCoinsFullScreen.asp

US Government Gold Eagles (not a full ounce) sell at $846 against a spot price of $791

http://www.onlygold.com/Coins/Double_Eagle_FS.asp

We were talking about a comparison between the Krugerrand and the Liberty Dollar. I guess you can console yourself with the thought that there were other gold "investments" that were even worse than yours.

Taco John
12-14-2007, 01:03 PM
Even less so now that you've confirmed it. The 5% premium for a Liberty Dollar would have put it's price at $830.55. Sucker.


The 5% was a guess. I love how childish you're being once proven wrong... You also mentioned gold bullion...


Amusing.

patteeu
12-14-2007, 01:27 PM
The 5% was a guess. I love how childish you're being once proven wrong... You also mentioned gold bullion...


Amusing.

How was I to know that you don't know the details of your own investment? Even if the 5% guess was wrong, you can't deny that my suspicion did indeed have a basis even if that basis turned out to be an unreliable statement that you yourself made.

Nightfyre
12-14-2007, 01:33 PM
I consider "profit" part of costs. But your empty and baseless suspicion is noted. You just want to be a contrarian. There's no principle in what you're saying.

You're increasingly turning into a liberal in your argument style.
Profit = Revenues - Expenses (Costs)

Please don't misuse the terms again.

Taco John
12-14-2007, 01:35 PM
How was I to know that you don't know the details of your own investment? Even if the 5% guess was wrong, you can't deny that my suspicion did indeed have a basis even if that basis turned out to be an unreliable statement that you yourself made.


I didn't purchase any of the gold coins, and the 5% was an estimate. And yes, your statements were baseless. You had no idea of the facts. And once the facts proved you inaccurate, you just got petty.

Don't blame me for your lack of accuracy.

patteeu
12-14-2007, 01:49 PM
I didn't purchase any of the gold coins, and the 5% was an estimate. And yes, your statements were baseless. You had no idea of the facts. And once the facts proved you inaccurate, you just got petty.

Don't blame me for your lack of accuracy.

You called my assertion "baseless" even though I'd already softened it by the use of the word "suspect" and then you have the audacity to call me petty for pointing out that my assertion turned out to be correct (based on your own prior testimony/guesstimate as to the premium charged for the Liberty metal)? :shrug:

LMAO

It would be true to say that I was unsure of the facts, hence the use of the word "suspect". It is untrue to say that I had no idea of the facts or that my suspicion was baseless. And even if it had been baseless, I would think I'd deserve some credit for hitting the bullseye with my wild and baseless guess.

I suspect that the Liberty Dollar folks were able to squeeze a bit more out of their customers than the Krugerrand folks.

:thumb: It's hard to be more right than that, assuming you weren't wildly inaccurate with your 5% guess.

Taco John
12-14-2007, 05:11 PM
You called my assertion "baseless" even though I'd already softened it by the use of the word "suspect" and then you have the audacity to call me petty for pointing out that my assertion turned out to be correct (based on your own prior testimony/guesstimate as to the premium charged for the Liberty metal)? :shrug:

No your assertion wasn't correct. Even if the 5% number is accurate, it's nowhere out of range of what other gold coins and bullion are selling for. You made it sound like the Liberty Dollar folks were ripping people off.

Adept Havelock
12-14-2007, 05:14 PM
Profit = Revenues - Expenses (Costs)

Please don't misuse the terms again.


Thanks for the confirmation. I thought that was the case.

patteeu
12-14-2007, 09:43 PM
No your assertion wasn't correct. Even if the 5% number is accurate, it's nowhere out of range of what other gold coins and bullion are selling for. You made it sound like the Liberty Dollar folks were ripping people off.

They did rip a bunch of people off as it turns out. Some more than others. The people, like yourself, who bought metal were the lucky ones.

But you can't deny that my statement was correct. Here it is again:

I suspect that the Liberty Dollar folks were able to squeeze a bit more out of their customers than the Krugerrand folks.

People who sell Krugerrands made $24 off their customers at today's spot price.

People selling Liberty Dollars would have made $39.55. That's a whopping 65% more profit than the Krugerrand guys.

:p

Cochise
12-14-2007, 10:31 PM
They did rip a bunch of people off as it turns out. Some more than others. The people, like yourself, who bought metal were the lucky ones.

But you can't deny that my statement was correct. Here it is again:



People who sell Krugerrands made $24 off their customers at today's spot price.

People selling Liberty Dollars would have made $39.55. That's a whopping 65% more profit than the Krugerrand guys.

:p

Taking into account shipping costs would probably add a few dollars to your margin too.

You could also get money into gold indirectly if you wanted to via mutual funds and such, which would abstract all of this to you. That's a way you can take advantage of the stability of the asset without putting yourself at risk with paper notes or e-notes from a company that you don't know if they will be around next week, or paying a per-unit premium on the metal itself.

Plus you can convert the investment into fiat shamdollars in a minute, if you need to.

Taco John
12-15-2007, 02:49 AM
I don't honestly care what people think of the crazy notion of buying gold or silver coins. What a stupid thing to criticize. The thing that strikes me is how permissive people have gotten about the confiscation of private property. It's like some people here think that they're too ****ing smart to be outraged by some of the outrageous stuff our government is pulling.

Cochise
12-15-2007, 09:39 AM
Well, if the property in question is evidence in a criminal investigation it's not all that shocking that it was confiscated. I don't think there's any general problem with evidence in a criminal investigation being confiscated by law enforcement bodies to prevent obstruction or destruction and I don't think that's anything new either. I wouldn't expect a drug dealer to get busted and the cops to just leave the 8 kilo's sitting there on his kitchen table.

No one in the thread said what you are trying to make it out like they said.

patteeu
12-15-2007, 10:00 AM
I don't honestly care what people think of the crazy notion of buying gold or silver coins. What a stupid thing to criticize. The thing that strikes me is how permissive people have gotten about the confiscation of private property. It's like some people here think that they're too ****ing smart to be outraged by some of the outrageous stuff our government is pulling.

I don't mean to hurt your feelings. If you want to invest in gold, go for it. My criticism is mainly directed at the Liberty Dollar guy who ironically is now desperate to scrape together some fake, government issued cash.

And ftr, I already addressed the forfeiture aspect of this thread. So far I haven't seen anyone support the forfeiture, have I missed something?

Cochise
12-15-2007, 10:38 AM
I am not sure that we should just take a guy on his word when he says, "I am shocked to inform you that we have learned that the FBI is moving aggressively to forfeit "their" seizure for auction immediately!" - especially after he had a pretty good idea that everyone buying into his paper and electronic notes was going to lose their money but he kept banking those worthless fed notes anyway.

I'd like to see what "we" have "learned" before I just believe him on that. He doesn't seem very trustworthy anyway.

Iowanian
12-15-2007, 10:50 AM
Its not the gold and silver I laugh at.

Its the dumbasses that think some random dumbass can mint currency and sell them.


drrrrrrrrrrrrrr

banyon
12-15-2007, 10:59 AM
I don't mean to hurt your feelings. If you want to invest in gold, go for it. My criticism is mainly directed at the Liberty Dollar guy who ironically is now desperate to scrape together some fake, government issued cash.

And ftr, I already addressed the forfeiture aspect of this thread. So far I haven't seen anyone support the forfeiture, have I missed something?

The previous post?

Anyway, I agree. I don't see any good legal arguments on the side of the Liberty Dollar folks' defense.

They are accused of the following crime:

Section 485. Coins or bars

Whoever falsely makes, forges, or counterfeits any coin or bar in
resemblance or similitude of any coin of a denomination higher than
5 cents or any gold or silver bar coined or stamped at any mint or
assay office of the United States, or in resemblance or similitude
of any foreign gold or silver coin current in the United States or
in actual use and circulation as money within the United States; or
Whoever passes, utters, publishes, sells, possesses, or brings
into the United States any false, forged, or counterfeit coin or
bar, knowing the same to be false, forged, or counterfeit, with
intent to defraud any body politic or corporate, or any person, or
attempts the commission of any offense described in this paragraph
-
Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than
fifteen years, or both.

____

The property is being seized as evidence of mail fraud and money laundering (the proceeds or instruments of the above criminal statute violation). Pursuant to Section 18 USC 981, this is subject to forfeiture:

Section 981. Civil forfeiture

(a)(1) The following property is subject to forfeiture to the
United States:
(A) Any property, real or personal, involved in a transaction
or attempted transaction in violation of section 1956, 1957 or
1960 of this title, or any property traceable to such property.
(B) Any property, real or personal, within the jurisdiction of
the United States, constituting, derived from, or traceable to,
any proceeds obtained directly or indirectly from an offense
against a foreign nation, or any property used to facilitate such
an offense, if the offense -
(i) involves the manufacture, importation, sale, or
distribution of a controlled substance (as that term is defined
for purposes of the Controlled Substances Act), or any other
conduct described in section 1956(c)(7)(B);
(ii) would be punishable within the jurisdiction of the
foreign nation by death or imprisonment for a term exceeding 1
year; and
(iii) would be punishable under the laws of the United States
by imprisonment for a term exceeding 1 year, if the act or
activity constituting the offense had occurred within the
jurisdiction of the United States.

________

The best defense I can think of would be to argue that the coins really aren't "similar" to the real U.S. coins. Here are the coins in dispute listed by the U.S. Attorney:

The Liberty Dollar:

http://www.libertydollar.org/press-kit/images/fullsize/peace_dollar.jpg

The 2007 US Platinum Eagle:
http://www.dillongage.com/CoinImages%5CPlatinum%5Cplatinum-eagle.jpg

Roosevelt Dime (not sure why this one is listed)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/d/d0/RooseveltDime.jpg/400px-RooseveltDime.jpg


2007 Presidential coin (obverse)

http://www1.istockphoto.com/file_thumbview_approve/2961274/2/istockphoto_2961274_george_washington_dollar_coin.jpg

I don't get why the dime is included, as the Liberty Dollar looks nothing like those. But the others definitely have some things in common. I would think the standard (though I am not sure about this) might be similar to the standard of review in a trademark case. That is, is the consumer (or "currencyholder") likely to be confused? While it is probably true that those seeking out the Liberty Dollar directly may know what they are doing, third parties they disperse or sell the coin to might think it is some form of government issued currency.

The defense has its work cut out for them. They'd better collect a lot of the fake currency to hire good defense counsel. I would think the worst piece of evidence against them is the fact that the face side of the coin says "USA". What exactly is that doing on the coin and what could it mean besides "issued by the USA"? (*edit* not to mention the "Trust in God" which is ridiculously close to "In God we Trust") There are some arguments, but kind of weak ones, IMO.

patteeu
12-15-2007, 11:18 AM
The previous post?

I think Cochise was talking about the confiscation action, which is unobjectionable IMO, not the forfeiture. I assumed he had misunderstood Taco's point.

I assume the Roosevelt dime is included because of the torch on the back.

banyon
12-15-2007, 11:24 AM
I think Cochise was talking about the confiscation action, which is unobjectionable IMO, not the forfeiture. I assumed he had misunderstood Taco's point.

I assume the Roosevelt dime is included because of the torch on the back.

Ok. That makes sense.

Cochise
12-15-2007, 12:04 PM
I don't know how they are supposed to not be or resemble real currency when they intentionally use the symbols of real currency. On some of them it actually says "dollars" or has dollar signs.

Cochise
12-15-2007, 12:10 PM
I think Cochise was talking about the confiscation action, which is unobjectionable IMO, not the forfeiture. I assumed he had misunderstood Taco's point.

I assume the Roosevelt dime is included because of the torch on the back.

I think the post did say "confiscation" and not forfeiture. I don't see what the problem is with confiscation here because it's evidence of the crimes under investigation. If it is found that no laws were violated, then return it. If there is a conviction for crimes related to the stuff then pursuant to the sections of the USC that banyon quoted, it looks like it will be forfeit.

I was clarifying on the "You hate freedom because you love private property being confiscated" straw man. It was at best a gross oversimplification, or confusion between confiscation and forfeiture.

patteeu
12-15-2007, 12:20 PM
I think the post did say "confiscation" and not forfeiture. I don't see what the problem is with confiscation here because it's evidence of the crimes under investigation. If it is found that no laws were violated, then return it. If there is a conviction for crimes related to the stuff then pursuant to the sections of the USC that banyon quoted, it looks like it will be forfeit.

I was clarifying on the "You hate freedom because you love private property being confiscated" straw man. It was at best a gross oversimplification, or confusion between confiscation and forfeiture.

I understood what you were talking about and I noticed that Taco had used "confiscation" in his post. I'm assuming, and I could be wrong, that Taco mistakenly said "clarification" when he was really talking about the "forfeiture" that is discussed in the OP. According to the OP, the government is "moving aggressively to forfeit 'their' seizure for auction immediately" which, if true, is more than mere confiscation for purposes of securing evidence. I say "if true" because I take everything this guy is saying with a huge grain of salt. He's a snake oil salesman afterall.

banyon
12-15-2007, 12:42 PM
I understood what you were talking about and I noticed that Taco had used "confiscation" in his post. I'm assuming, and I could be wrong, that Taco mistakenly said "clarification" when he was really talking about the "forfeiture" that is discussed in the OP. According to the OP, the government is "moving aggressively to forfeit 'their' seizure for auction immediately" which, if true, is more than mere confiscation for purposes of securing evidence. I say "if true" because I take everything this guy is saying with a huge grain of salt. He's a snake oil salesman afterall.

Well, there's that guy's account and the U.S. Attorney's Warrant (http://www.libertydollar.org/legal/pdf/libertyaffidavit.pdf).
The Warrant doesn't specify any type of auction to be held. I find that defendants are often confused about the legal process though. ;)

patteeu
12-15-2007, 12:54 PM
Well, there's that guy's account and the U.S. Attorney's Warrant (http://www.libertydollar.org/legal/pdf/libertyaffidavit.pdf).
The Warrant doesn't specify any type of auction to be held. I find that defendants are often confused about the legal process though. ;)

Well I'll be darned. Who would have guessed?

Cochise
12-15-2007, 12:59 PM
Why does the honorable Dennis L. Howell hate freedom and liberty?

JohnnyV13
12-15-2007, 01:08 PM
Well I'll be darned. Who would have guessed?


Yeah, defendants often interpret legal process in such a way to maximize their "victimization".