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Tribal Warfare
12-15-2007, 05:07 AM
http://www.kansascity.com/sports/chiefs/v-print/story/404419.html


Rookie linemen struggle to demonstrate they’re not a bust
By ADAM TEICHER
The Kansas City Star

Filled with youthful exuberance shortly after signing his contract last summer, defensive lineman Tank Tyler promised he would spend his rookie season “busting heads” of Chiefs opponents.

That hasn’t happened for Tyler, a third-round draft pick, or fellow rookie defensive lineman Turk McBride, a second-round pick. Nothing unusual about that. Rookie defensive linemen tend to be the ones with the busted heads.

But Tyler and McBride have been so undistinguished the Chiefs quietly fear that neither will ever become a consistently productive player or even a dependable starter.

“I’m not satisfied,” said Tyler, who was speaking for himself but could have been talking for McBride, too. “It’s been more of a learning experience than I thought it would be. It’s a big step into the NFL. I want to be a star, but I also understand I’ve got a lot to learn and that I’ve got a ways to go.

“I wouldn’t take the season back. I wish we would have won some more games, but there’s been a lot of learning going on, too.”

The Chiefs drafted McBride to help ease the tremendous pressure on starting defensive ends Jared Allen and Tamba Hali. They were hopeful McBride would be ready to start the season’s first two games when Allen was unavailable because of an NFL suspension.

He wasn’t ready, and Jimmy Wilkerson started instead.

McBride plays at tackle in obvious passing situations but hasn’t relieved Allen or Hali much at end. Some of the reserve snaps that should have gone to McBride last week were given to Khreem Smith, who was recently promoted from the practice squad.

“This year was just the foundation,” McBride said. “I learned so much. Next year, I’ll be able to do more. I’ll have everything down. Right now, it seems like I’m hesitating when I get out there.

“It’s an extremely long season. It just seems like it will never end. Counting the preseason, there’s seven more games than we had in college. Practices are a lot more intense.”

Tyler also has relieved starting tackles Ron Edwards and Alfonso Boone as much as the Chiefs had hoped. He has just three tackles and was even inactive for one game against Green Bay last month.

The Chiefs were so disappointed in Tyler early in the season that veteran linebacker Donnie Edwards dragged him into the video room, popped in footage of Tyler busting Minnesota heads at a joint training camp practice and said, “What happened to this player?”

“They’re coming,” coach Herm Edwards said in a less-than-glowing endorsement. “They’re doing all right.

“It takes a while for guys at those positions to understand and to get better. But they’re a lot better than they were early in the season.

“We anticipated they might struggle some in the middle of the season, and they got their second wind now and they’re playing better. Going into next season, they’ll be better. They’re playing some in almost every game.”

But not as much as the Chiefs anticipated. Asked whether this was a reflection on their lack of progress, Edwards said, “It’s because the games have been so close. We feel like we can’t allow teams to have one or two big plays on us. You get nervous about that some.

“You wish those guys could have more snaps. It just seems like every series is a crucial series. It’s not like we’re playing with a big lead.”

There’s danger for the Chiefs in giving up on McBride and Tyler too soon, and they show no indication they will. Many a struggling rookie defensive lineman has gone on to become a dependable player, so it’s premature to call them the latest in a string of failed Chiefs defensive-line draft picks.

But the Chiefs would prefer to see them start to play aggressively sooner rather than later.

“I feel like I’ve had the opportunity a couple of times to bust some heads,” Tyler said. “I have my plays here and there. But there have been some negative plays, too. I plan on busting more of them next year and next game, too.”

Tribal Warfare
12-15-2007, 05:08 AM
Sounds like Sedrick Ellis isn't out of the realm of KC selecting him

Fairplay
12-15-2007, 05:21 AM
Depressing article. Im not interested in the chiefs much these days. The management is a joke. I've maybe seen 30 minutes of a game the last 3 games.

Now reading a couple high draft picks suck. Bah.

cdcox
12-15-2007, 05:51 AM
Mr. Obvious says that if you are rebuilding through the draft, you can't miss on both your #2 and #3 pick. That is like losing a whole year in the rebuild. I hope at least one of these guys comes around.

NotSureAnymore
12-15-2007, 08:22 AM
And people wonder why fans feel depressed? All the pre season post draft hype and once again we have two "high flyers" who tank. No pun intended.

Messier
12-15-2007, 08:26 AM
I like these two guys. The seem smart and have a good attitude. D-linemen can take awhile to work out. Albert Hanesworth is in his sixth year and he finally is putting it all together. He looked like a bust to me early on.

el borracho
12-15-2007, 08:29 AM
Have Turk and Tank done anything to this point to justify their draft selection? If we have a chance at a top DT next April we should take him.

Spicy McHaggis
12-15-2007, 08:40 AM
I like these two guys. The seem smart and have a good attitude. D-linemen can take awhile to work out. Albert Hanesworth is in his sixth year and he finally is putting it all together. He looked like a bust to me early on.

It seems Albert Haynesworth has caught a common affliction amongst D-Tackles known as "Contractus Yearitis".

I agree with you on Tank and Turk; I'm not ready to give up on them either yet. I think we'll see an improvement in them next year.

HemiEd
12-15-2007, 08:49 AM
Now reading a couple high draft picks suck. Bah.

Don't believe it. It is a smokescreen. Herm is the best drafter ever!! He is a talent genius!

CupidStunt
12-15-2007, 09:02 AM
At least Herm drafted the typical Chief. "There's always next year."

FringeNC
12-15-2007, 09:24 AM
Don't believe it. It is a smokescreen. Herm is the best drafter ever!! He is a talent genius!

To build through the draft, you need quite a few impact players per draft. How many impact players have Herm/Carl drafted total in the two years?

KevB
12-15-2007, 09:27 AM
Have Turk and Tank done anything to this point to justify their draft selection? If we have a chance at a top DT next April we should take him.

What in the world have you seen to indicate this management group has any clue at all on which DT to take?

TEX
12-15-2007, 09:28 AM
Don't believe it. It is a smokescreen. Herm is the best drafter ever!! He is a talent genius!


ROFL Once this myth is proven false, there is NO reason to keep him as HC. IMO, Pollard and Page have shown nothing to indicate they they're anything other than serviceable.

wazu
12-15-2007, 09:32 AM
But not as much as the Chiefs anticipated. Asked whether this was a reflection on their lack of progress, Edwards said, “It’s because the games have been so close."

Of our last 6 games, only 2 were decided by less than 11 points. 3 were lost by 2 touchdowns or more. It's time to stop using the "our games are so close" excuse.

TEX
12-15-2007, 09:33 AM
To build through the draft, you need quite a few impact players per draft. How many impact players have Herm/Carl drafted total in the two years?


Possibly 1 - Bowe.

KC Tattoo
12-15-2007, 09:34 AM
[QUOTE=Tribal Warfare]http://www.kansascity.com/sports/chiefs/v-print/story/404419.html


Rookie linemen struggle to demonstrate they’re not a bust
By ADAM TEICHER
The Kansas City Star


But not as much as the Chiefs anticipated. Asked whether this was a reflection on their lack of progress, Edwards said, “It’s because the games have been so close. We feel like we can’t allow teams to have one or two big plays on us. You get nervous about that some.

“You wish those guys could have more snaps. It just seems like every series is a crucial series. It’s not like we’re playing with a big lead.”

_____

If this was a "rebuilding" season Turk and Tank would have been playing regardless of the score. Just becouse the games have been close is not an excuse not to play them in a "rebuilding" year. Again I think Herm has egg on his face. He started to say we were "rebuilding" after our first couple of loss with Huard at QB and then they kept him in for over half the season. It's hard to show progress if the rookies aren't playing.

TEX
12-15-2007, 09:35 AM
Of our last 6 games, only 2 were decided by less than 11 points. 3 were lost by 2 touchdowns or more. It's time to stop using the "our games are so close" excuse.


Exactly - there is NO IMPROVEMENT anywhere - not in any phase of the game. The team is getting worse and they're not even compepetive anymore. That points to terrible coaching.

thehead
12-15-2007, 09:36 AM
One year Rookie line man A bust? Lame azz Fu#ktard Coach free pass bullsh#t .Local media needs to get some balls :banghead:

OnTheWarpath58
12-15-2007, 09:38 AM
Jeez, the impatience train is gaining speed around here.

If we can give Junior ****ing Siavii 2 years, we sure as hell can give Tank and Turk more than 13 games worth of limited action before we declare them busts......

wazu
12-15-2007, 09:46 AM
Jeez, the impatience train is gaining speed around here.

If we can give Junior ****ing Siavii 2 years, we sure as hell can give Tank and Turk more than 13 games worth of limited action before we declare them busts......

Agreed. I just want to see them playing and learning. I didn't like the McBride pick, but I thought the Tyler pick was a steal.

We'll know a lot more this time next year, though.

the Talking Can
12-15-2007, 09:48 AM
They’re playing some in almost every game.

Asked whether this was a reflection on their lack of progress, Edwards said, “It’s because the games have been so close. We feel like we can’t allow teams to have one or two big plays on us.


Evidence #321 that the Chiefs were not rebuilding this season, they were trying to "win now".

I hope these guys pan out, but come on...they haven't done anything this year. Zilch.

OnTheWarpath58
12-15-2007, 09:49 AM
Evidence #321 that the Chiefs were not rebuilding this season, they were trying to "win now".

I hope these guys pan out, but come on...they haven't done anything this year. Zilch.



ROFL ROFL ROFL


WTF happened to your screen name?

the Talking Can
12-15-2007, 09:50 AM
ROFL ROFL ROFL


WTF happened to your screen name?

god mods

thehead
12-15-2007, 09:52 AM
god mods


it is funny though pot man :)

OnTheWarpath58
12-15-2007, 09:53 AM
Agreed. I just want to see them playing and learning. I didn't like the McBride pick, but I thought the Tyler pick was a steal.

We'll know a lot more this time next year, though.

Yep.

I'm more disappointed in the lack of playing time than I am with their performance in limited duty. That's on Herm and Carl for this half-ass rebuilding year.

These two need to PLAY to get better. Sitting on the bench and watching Ron Edwards get abused isn't the "experience" I was hoping they'd get....

mylittlepony
12-15-2007, 09:57 AM
Having been around pro sports for most of my life I can say that what I saw from Turk McBride is a tenative player. He needs to go to a sports psychologist. He was nervous and tenative throughout the whole reality tv stuff. The guy is having some serious issues. A sports psychologist would clear that up for him, I saw some of the plays he made for Tenn. and he is a very good player. I think sending Turk to go see someone on a weekly basis or even twice a week would be as big of an investment to him as the laser eye surgery was to Dwayne Bowe.

As far as Tank. He just needs to play better.

the Talking Can
12-15-2007, 09:58 AM
so, we're rebuilding, and Herm supposedly loves to play rookies:

Bowe - 1st round starter

Turk - benched behind Wilkerson and Edwards because "games are too closee to risk it"

Tank - benched behind Edwards because "games are too close to risk it"

Smith - 3rd stringer behind Priest Holmes reality show, only played when no healthy RBs were left

Medlock - cut for making rookie mistakes


This is what "rebuilding" looks like?

siberian khatru
12-15-2007, 10:03 AM
I'm more disappointed in the lack of playing time than I am with their performance in limited duty. That's on Herm and Carl for this half-ass rebuilding year.

These two need to PLAY to get better. Sitting on the bench and watching Ron Edwards get abused isn't the "experience" I was hoping they'd get....

Bullseye. This shit just makes me so ****ing mad. THIS, not the losses, is what we're bitching about. It's not that we're "impatient fans." For God's sake, look who's impatient -- management. They didn't talk about rebuilding until they'd lost their sixth straight game, now they're trying to tell us that was the plan all along and that us stupid fans better get with the program and keep our mouths shut.

What a bunch of lying, hypocritical crapweasels.

Chiefnj2
12-15-2007, 10:04 AM
“It’s because the games have been so close. We feel like we can’t allow teams to have one or two big plays on us. You get nervous about that some. You wish those guys could have more snaps. It just seems like every series is a crucial series. It’s not like we’re playing with a big lead.”

Way to instill confidence Herm.

thehead
12-15-2007, 10:06 AM
Bullseye. This shit just makes me so ****ing mad. THIS, not the losses, is what we're bitching about. It's not that we're "impatient fans." For God's sake, look who's impatient -- management. They didn't talk about rebuilding until they'd lost their sixth straight game, now they're trying to tell us that was the plan all along and that us stupid fans better get with the program and keep our mouths shut.

What a bunch of lying, hypocritical crapweasels.





You Sir are correct
:clap:

HemiEd
12-15-2007, 10:06 AM
To build through the draft, you need quite a few impact players per draft. How many impact players have Herm/Carl drafted total in the two years?

So far, one and a half IMO. Maybe 5 by the time the information is all in.

OnTheWarpath58
12-15-2007, 10:08 AM
so, we're rebuilding, and Herm supposedly loves to play rookies:

Bowe - 1st round starter

Turk - benched behind Wilkerson and Edwards because "games are too closee to risk it"

Tank - benched behind Edwards because "games are too close to risk it"

Smith - 3rd stringer behind Priest Holmes reality show, only played when no healthy RBs were left

Medlock - cut for making rookie mistakes


This is what "rebuilding" looks like?

Only in the eyes of Carl Peterson, LTGMIPS.

Remember how pissed off me, you and htismaqe were over the summer about this being a wasted season because we'd go 8-8 and still have no answers?

If you would have told me that we'd go 4-12, I would have bet my life savings that we played every young player we had as much as we could.

Instead, we're going 4-12 and our QBOTF has played 4 games.

Our 2 rookie DT's have played sparingly.

Our rookie RB was buried on the depth chart.

We've burned through 2 young kickers, then signed a stopgap who's max is 40 yards.

Those young offfensive lineman? I saw Herb Taylor's picture on the back of a milk carton.

I'm not saying Herm's a great coach, he's not. But I'd be curious to see how things would work around here if Carl would STFD and STFU and let Herm truly rebuild this team.

HemiEd
12-15-2007, 10:12 AM
Yep.

I'm more disappointed in the lack of playing time than I am with their performance in limited duty. That's on Herm and Carl for this half-ass rebuilding year.

These two need to PLAY to get better. Sitting on the bench and watching Ron Edwards get abused isn't the "experience" I was hoping they'd get....

Exactly, that is why I said Herm has possibly drafted 5 impact players to date. But if they aren't playing, we will never know. Herm is talking out of both sides of his mouth.

siberian khatru
12-15-2007, 10:12 AM
"It just seems like every series is a crucial series. It’s not like we’re playing with a big lead.”

This is good, too. Isn't that how Herm manages his games? Slow them down, keep things close, make the other team commit the crucial mistake? Since when did he think he'd have "big leads" to play his rookie DLs? He knew coming into the season that they wouldn't be blowing teams out. Jeebus Cripes.

the Talking Can
12-15-2007, 10:15 AM
This is good, too. Isn't that how Herm manages his games? Slow them down, keep things close, make the other team commit the crucial mistake? Since when did he think he'd have "big leads" to play his rookie DLs? He knew coming into the season that they wouldn't be blowing teams out. Jeebus Cripes.

the minute you take Herm seriously, it all contradicts....

Mr. Laz
12-15-2007, 10:16 AM
[“You wish those guys could have more snaps. It just seems like every series is a crucial series. It’s not like we’re playing with a big lead.”
so your shit-ass offensive scheme is hurting the defense too



whodathunkit

the Talking Can
12-15-2007, 10:19 AM
so your shit-ass offensive scheme is hurting the defense too



whodathunkit

plus, we've lost 8 games by 10+ points each....they haven't been close...at all...and the Vets he's benched our rookies for are obviously making the "crucial mistakes" he's worried about...


rebuilding my ass

Mecca
12-15-2007, 11:33 AM
that logic is futile. Drafting more rookies is not the answer at this point. Who would they cut? Turk and Tank wont get cut, and if they dont produce, do you really want to cur Boone or Edwards?

We have tried reaching for combine studs (siavii, freeman). didnt work
we tried getting the consensus #1 DT (sims). didnt work
we tried having krumrie weed out dlineman with his slap fight (tank/turk) and focus on game tape....so far not working.

what else can we do? keep wasting top picks at the position doesnt seem like a good idea. The colts have a starting rookie undrafted free agent. Maybe we should get as many as them in 2008 and let the best man win.

This line of logic sucks....it's like saying the Colts shouldn't have picked Manning because Jeff George didn't work out for them.

By the way anyone who thinks Ron Edwards is a good starter doesn't evaluate lineman very well.

AggressiveNapkin
12-15-2007, 11:45 AM
So the myth of Herm's drafting ability has been debunked for the most part. I'm not ready to give up on those two yet because they could end up contributing. However, it seems as if he drafts guys too high when better players are available. Always next year though right...

King_Chief_Fan
12-15-2007, 11:45 AM
I continue to ask the same question. So what makes everyone think that Herm is such a good talent evaluator? His choices aren't up to the billing. What is Herm good at?

Frankie
12-15-2007, 11:49 AM
Frankly I think this article is BS. Is anyone old enough to remember Neil Smith's rookie year? "Bust" was written all over it. That said, I am curious about something, albeit trivial, here. If one of the two rookie D-linemen is destined to be a bust and the other a success, which one do you want to succeed? I find myself rooting for Tank to succeed.

TEX
12-15-2007, 11:51 AM
So the myth of Herm's drafting ability has been debunked for the most part. I'm not ready to give up on those two yet because they could end up contributing. However, it seems as if he drafts guys too high when better players are available. Always next year though right...

If this proves true, he has no business being a HC.

Mecca
12-15-2007, 11:52 AM
Everyone says that dlineman take at least 3yrs to develop. We aldready have 2 young lineman developing.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=kluck/wrapup/070425&sportCat=nfl (http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=kluck/wrapup/070425&sportCat=nfl)

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/2006/04/24/ramblings/nfl-draft/3828/ (http://www.footballoutsiders.com/2006/04/24/ramblings/nfl-draft/3828/)

If we have a need, than we need to get some proven talent in FA and fill in our other needs via the draft. We cant afford to blow more picks in that area when we have huge needs on Oline and elsewhere.

Ron Edwards is cheap. if he isnt playing well, we can cut him...no loss. Same with Boone. The ramifications of cutting Turk/Tank or a 1st rnd DT are far greater.

I don't really buy into that.......good lineman are good right away. Tommie Harris didn't take 3 years to be any good, these guys at best are good rotation players they aren't stars that say hey we are set here we don't need any other guys...

Sedrick Ellis can be a Tommie Harris type, you'd wanna pass on that because of McBride and Tyler....that's nuts.

Mecca
12-15-2007, 11:52 AM
I continue to ask the same question. So what makes everyone think that Herm is such a good talent evaluator? His choices aren't up to the billing. What is Herm good at?

It's because before him the drafts were so bad now people think this is good. Now the 1st round picks play which is more than we got before...but once again better than awful isn't good.

TEX
12-15-2007, 11:56 AM
I continue to ask the same question. So what makes everyone think that Herm is such a good talent evaluator? His choices aren't up to the billing. What is Herm good at?

Talking BS and not much more. The deal is we had a blueprint for all the BS, but still hired him and it cost us a draft pick. If the only positive thing that comes out of hiring Herm is that when he gets fired, Carl does also. Then and only then will it be worth it.

OnTheWarpath58
12-15-2007, 11:57 AM
I don't really buy into that.......good lineman are good right away. Tommie Harris didn't take 3 years to be any good, these guys at best are good rotation players they aren't stars that say hey we are set here we don't need any other guys...

Sedrick Ellis can be a Tommie Harris type, you'd wanna pass on that because of McBride and Tyler....that's nuts.


Tommie Harris was a 14th overall pick.

He damned well better be good right of the bat.

For people to think that Tank and Turk should be anywhere near that level after 13 games of limited action, is ridiculous. Some of you guys expect every pick to be a ****ing pro bowler within their 2 seasons.

How about we see these two actually get some significant playing time before we write them off?

Regarding Ellis: D-linemen play in a rotation, and you can never have enough good ones. If he's there, depending on who else is there, you take him, no questions asked.

TEX
12-15-2007, 11:57 AM
It's because before him the drafts were so bad now people think this is good. Now the 1st round picks play which is more than we got before...but once again better than awful isn't good.

I agree, but his decision-making about most everything is awful.

Mecca
12-15-2007, 12:00 PM
Tommie Harris was a 14th overall pick.

He damned well better be good right of the bat.

For people to think that Tank and Turk should be anywhere near that level after 13 games of limited action, is ridiculous. Some of you guys expect every pick to be a ****ing pro bowler within their 2 seasons.

How about we see these two actually get some significant playing time before we write them off?

Regarding Ellis: D-linemen play in a rotation, and you can never have enough good ones. If he's there, depending on who else is there, you take him, no questions asked.

I don't have a problem with what you said, I was just disagreeing with the guy who's saying don't take another lineman because of them. To me anyone who says "Oh don't take Ellis we have these guys or don't take Chris Long we have these guys" is nuts. You are advocating passing on a guy who has the shot at being a star for a guy who's just a complimentary player, I don't get that.

Also for the record Sims was the 6th overall pick and I heard "oh it takes time for them to develop" about him every year......even the Chiefs put that shit out...

el borracho
12-15-2007, 12:01 PM
What in the world have you seen to indicate this management group has any clue at all on which DT to take?
We usually do well with our 1st round picks (a few notable exceptions to the rule).

Count Alex's Wins
12-15-2007, 12:03 PM
There's no reason to keep James Reed if we draft Ellis or Dorsey. If we pass on either player Herm should be fired immediately.

KC Tattoo
12-15-2007, 12:03 PM
Frankly I think this article is BS. Is anyone old enough to remember Neil Smith's rookie year? "Bust" was written all over it. That said, I am curious about something, albeit trivial, here. If one of the two rookie D-linemen is destined to be a bust and the other a success, which one do you want to succeed? I find myself rooting for Tank to succeed.


Yea I liked Tank and was really hoping we would get him. Totally shocked on the Turk pick and was wanting an explanation. I think they were looking at the JA missing four games and thought they really needed somebody to step it up and why not Turk. That #2 pick could have been a O lineman or a much higher ranked player and we could have gotten Turk in later rounds. Turk, prime example of a "reach".

I'm very hopefull for Tank to work out and think he will. I'm rooten more for Tank than Turk. I'd be nice if they both work out.

OnTheWarpath58
12-15-2007, 12:04 PM
Talking BS and not much more. The deal is we had a blueprint for all the BS, but still hired him and it cost us a draft pick. If the only positive thing that comes out of hiring Herm is that when he gets fired, Carl does also. Then and only then will it be worth it.

Jesus....

You just bitch for the sake of bitching, don't you?

Losing a 4th round draft pick is the end of the ****ing world? You've been ranting about that pick forever.

We spent a 2nd and a 3rd on DV to accomplish the same thing. One playoff loss. But I don't hear you bitching about that.....

Trust me, it's OK to hate Herm. But you don't have to look like a ****ing retard doing it. You're way smarter than that.

Mecca
12-15-2007, 12:05 PM
sims was the 6th pick. He was supposed to be a tommie harris type.

if he can bust so can ellis.

The question we have to ask is this:
1. Is it essential that we have DTs NOW that can both take on blockers and rush the passer? Those guys are generally 1st rnd picks.

1 dimensional DTs (that can take on blockers) can be found late in the draft and as undrafted players. If they are able to do only that much, wouldnt that free up our Ends and LBs to make plays? So are our DT not capable of being at least 1DT, or is the bigger problem that our linebackers and DE (other than JA) not making plays?

If you are gonna play this cover 2 shit and well any defense now, you need at least 1 DT that can pass rush and get in the backfield...Ellis is that. He isn't a take up blockers guy, he's a make plays guy...

Don't get me started on Sims, that was an example of the Chiefs moron organization and Vermiel buying into Buntinng and the scouts being stupid. Everyone knew before that draft Henderson was widely regarded as the best guy...then we take Sims. That pick pissed me off to no end.

Mecca
12-15-2007, 12:07 PM
So please spell out EXACTLy what you are advocating. We cant draft 1st rnd DT AND Olineman. 1 or the other.

And since you think that DT develop right away, should we cut Tank and Turk?

How are we going to improve the Oline?

No you don't cut them but you don't pass on the best player on the board if he's a DT either......The Chiefs are likely to have a top 10 pick, they should take whoever the best player on the board is, this team can use everything...other than an RB you don't build teams around them..

Once again as I've said 100 times, this year is deep at OT but there is no front line elite prospect. Which means the OT you can take in the 2nd round will be pretty similar to the guy at the top of the 1st round..

So hey take the elite blue chip prospect in the first......a Chris Long and Sedrick Ellis a guy like that.....then come back with a OT in the 2nd...what a concept huh?

OnTheWarpath58
12-15-2007, 12:08 PM
If you are gonna play this cover 2 shit and well any defense now, you need at least 1 DT that can pass rush and get in the backfield...Ellis is that. He isn't a take up blockers guy, he's a make plays guy...

Don't get me started on Sims, that was an example of the Chiefs moron organization and Vermiel buying into Buntinng and the scouts being stupid. Everyone knew before that draft Henderson was widely regarded as the best guy...then we take Sims. That pick pissed me off to no end.

Exactly.

Mecca
12-15-2007, 12:10 PM
Exactly.

Another example of how the Chiefs scout.....the Chiefs bought or buy into the "prototype" way to much.....they legit thought John Henderson was to tall to be a good DT so that was why they moved him down.

Just another great example of why our team can't draft.

el borracho
12-15-2007, 12:11 PM
Losing a 4th round draft pick is the end of the ****ing world? You've been ranting about that pick forever.

We spent a 2nd and a 3rd on DV to accomplish the same thing.
All worth bitching about, IMO. We certainly could have used our draft picks more wisely in the last 8 years.

OnTheWarpath58
12-15-2007, 12:15 PM
All worth bitching about, IMO. We certainly could have used our draft picks more wisely in the last 8 years.

And that's fine. I agree 100%

But the bias becomes a hell of a lot more obvious when you're bitching about one, and not the other.

Especially when the other was the crappier deal. 2 first day picks > 1 second day pick.

Messier
12-15-2007, 12:18 PM
everyone keeps talking like the first round should be some automatic lock. Every first rounder should be a pro bowler or you failed. I went back and looked at the last five drafts. On average 10 picks in the first round are busts. Only 16 of the 07 first rounders are starting for thier team.

el borracho
12-15-2007, 12:19 PM
Oh, Vermeil cost us more than 2 first day picks. He also cost us a 1st round pick because he just couldn't wait one year to get Trent Green. I can't think of one positive in trading our earliest 1st round pick in a decade for Green when he would have been a free-agent the very next year. Was it really so important to have Green teaching C. Thomas and Snoop Minnis the system that first year?

Mr. Laz
12-15-2007, 12:24 PM
doesn't Dorsey's injury concern anyone else?

Mecca
12-15-2007, 12:25 PM
doesn't Dorsey's injury concern anyone else?

Not that much, he was still productive. If it's anything lingering it'll be talked about a bunch before the draft....

If any sort of supposed "injury" made him actually fall to the Chiefs pick they should drop to their knees thank God and then pick him.

Frankie
12-15-2007, 12:30 PM
Yea I liked Tank and was really hoping we would get him. Totally shocked on the Turk pick and was wanting an explanation. I think they were looking at the JA missing four games and thought they really needed somebody to step it up and why not Turk. That #2 pick could have been a O lineman or a much higher ranked player and we could have gotten Turk in later rounds. Turk, prime example of a "reach".

I'm very hopefull for Tank to work out and think he will. I'm rooten more for Tank than Turk. I'd be nice if they both work out.
Tank was talked up on many draft boards as a 1st rounder. I was also shocked with the Turk pick, but I was equally shocked that we had the chance to pick up Tank in the 3rd. Plus I was very impressed by the HBO preseason highlights of how Tank played. He looked pretty fast and agile with that wrecking ball body. I still think he will pan out. I wonder how much of his problem is this alleged Sleep Apnea that he has. If he does have it I wonder what's being done to control/cure it.

TEX
12-15-2007, 12:30 PM
Jesus....

You just bitch for the sake of bitching, don't you?

Losing a 4th round draft pick is the end of the ****ing world? You've been ranting about that pick forever.

We spent a 2nd and a 3rd on DV to accomplish the same thing. One playoff loss. But I don't hear you bitching about that.....

Trust me, it's OK to hate Herm. But you don't have to look like a ****ing retard doing it. You're way smarter than that.

Nope. I bitch at the truth when it calls for bitching. The FACT is Herm was going to get FIRED by the Jets. To trade anything for him was pretty stupid. That's worth bitching about.

You're not even in the same ball park when it comes to taking that stance with DV. Do your homework before you label people.

Mecca
12-15-2007, 12:34 PM
everyone keeps talking like the first round should be some automatic lock. Every first rounder should be a pro bowler or you failed. I went back and looked at the last five drafts. On average 10 picks in the first round are busts. Only 16 of the 07 first rounders are starting for thier team.

Then those teams ****ed up their picks......Also you need to weigh in with the 07 draft on what team they went to what understanding was there when drafted. Such a guy like Brandon Meriweather the Pats had no intent on starting him this year.

Top 10 picks especially should be key players for your team.

Mecca
12-15-2007, 01:26 PM
It's better to trade down than to take an elite player...that's brilliant.

The strive for mediocrity of this team and this city goes a lot deeper than Peterson.

Count Alex's Wins
12-15-2007, 01:36 PM
If Herm takes either instead of trading down he should be fired immediately.

That's garbage. We need a defensive tackle. Dorsey might be the best 3T DT to come out since Warren Sapp.

RustShack
12-15-2007, 01:44 PM
You guys are getting way too used to being mediocre. We need impact players.

Count Alex's Wins
12-15-2007, 02:00 PM
we need better play out of our LDE more than anything on our line.
After that we need a CB to replace Law

upgrading the DT position is a little further down on our priority list.

There are no LDEs or CBs worth taking if Dorsey or Ellis are on the board. END OF DISCUSSION.

RustShack
12-15-2007, 02:02 PM
upgrading our DT would help both of our DE's tremendously. It would also free up space for our linebackers to run free and make plays, and since it would greatly improve our pressure on the QB, that makes the DB's job one hell of a lot more easy. Impact DT is the way to go. Draft the first round talent Olineman in the 2nd round, which essentially would be like a late first round pick since we will be drafting so early.

StcChief
12-15-2007, 02:07 PM
But not as much as the Chiefs anticipated. Asked whether this was a reflection on their lack of progress, Edwards said, “It’s because the games have been so close. We feel like we can’t allow teams to have one or two big plays on us. You get nervous about that some.

what happens when you play for FGs

Messier
12-15-2007, 02:09 PM
We've got to draft O-line first round. Then maybe three more picks after that. Almost complete turnover is the only way I see a real improvement on the line.

RustShack
12-15-2007, 02:11 PM
The Chiefs wont call people to trade down, teams will call us to trade up. I don't see us trading our first round pick anyways. An impact player does more for you team than a good player does.

Count Alex's Wins
12-15-2007, 02:29 PM
In reality Boone is rated #1 against the rush at his position, and Edwards is 16th. .

In reality, they are nowhere near that good.

And neither of them are anywhere CLOSE to the pass rusher that Dorsey is.

Mecca
12-15-2007, 02:31 PM
2 above avg Olineman would make a greater overall impact for this team NOW than 1 elite DT.

If we trade down, we would be able to pick up alot more 1st day picks.

I don't give a **** about now, I give a **** about where we are in 3 years, and we'll never compete with the Pats or Colts using this idea.

Also this idea that "we have to take Oline first" is ****in stupid, the values aren't good enough and the guys in the 2nd round will be almost the same.......

What do you wanna do use the first 4 picks of the draft all on Olineman even if they all don't warrant the pick? This shit is a sure fire way to get bust picks.....

Great job guys.....you are real Chiefs fans, You are concerned with being 8-8 next year not building a championship team.

Mecca
12-15-2007, 02:32 PM
The team has been alluding to "trading down" in multiple artices. Whether they do will be seen on draft day.
http://www.kcchiefs.com/news/2007/12/13/weir_spring_cleaning/

Herm realizes that their are alot of holes on this team, and that is why we are stockpiling draft picks (wish we had traded wesley), and it is something i think we will continue to do in the draft.

If Ellis, Dorsey, McFadden or many other players are available teams will be calling to guage interest...whether we make the trade will depend on how far down the draft the chiefs are willing to fall and how close the trade sticks to the draft value chart.

They wanna trade down because it's Carl.......if they trade down 2 draft 2 mediocre players and get an extra pick that turns into a nobody while having a shot at a guy like Dorsey or Ellis......especially if it's Dorsey I'll quit that will signal no ****ing hope for this franchise.

Count Alex's Wins
12-15-2007, 02:32 PM
You've convinced me, Mecca. Even if Long is sitting there, we should take Dorsey or Ellis. The dropoff from Long to Barry Richardson, who we might be able to get in the 2nd where you actually feel good drafting a right tackle, isn't that much.

Mecca
12-15-2007, 02:35 PM
You've convinced me, Mecca. Even if Long is sitting there, we should take Dorsey or Ellis. The dropoff from Long to Barry Richardson, who we might be able to get in the 2nd where you actually feel good drafting a right tackle, isn't that much.

Exactly man......

this is what a lot of this sounds like to me from some of the people here..."we need offensive linemen so our offense can be productive so we can score more points to go 8-8" rather than committing to building a core of a real team.

Count Alex's Wins
12-15-2007, 02:37 PM
To say that Dorsey is so much better right now without playing against NFl olines is a joke.

LOL...Dorsey is being rated as the #1 pick because he is a dynamite pass rusher. Edwards and Boone don't compare. Especially Edwards, who is a rotational player and not a good starter.

Besides, both of them are getting up in age, and right now it looks like Tank and Turk are never going to be the impact DT we NEED. We have to hedge our bets if Dorsey or Ellis are sitting there.

Mecca
12-15-2007, 02:39 PM
in college. Boone and or Edwards could probably light up college lineman and look all pro.

you are comparing apples to oranges right now. To say that Dorsey is so much better right now without playing against NFl olines is a joke.

I'm glad you aren't a GM.......we'd never get a superstar in any pick because "I don't want a high pick no one has proven anything they aren't stars"

When you argued in favor of Ron Edwards against Glenn Dorsey I lost all respect for you.

Mecca
12-15-2007, 02:41 PM
we have 2 capable rbs in LJ and kolby. We have a good rookie wr in Bowe, and we have an all pro TE in TG. IMO, i think Croyle will be good but we dont know yet.

The only thing holding them back is an Oline and playcalling. We get good lineman and they can make this team far better in a hurry and can be a core of good players for years.

Holding them back from being.....8-8......is it your goal to make the playoffs and get your brains beat in by the real teams in this league?

Look at the talent on this team it does not compare...this team needs better players everywhere. I don't think you understand how bad this team is.....

LJ is not even half the player he once was, just accept it. He isn't even a top 10 back anymore.

Just to add in here........don't count guys like TG and LJ by the time this team is good they'll be done...especially LJ.

Count Alex's Wins
12-15-2007, 02:47 PM
there are many places that have Ellis as the #1 DT over Dorsey.
http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/players.php?genpos=DT&draftyear=2008&sortorder=tsxpos&order=ASC (http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/players.php?genpos=DT&draftyear=2008&sortorder=tsxpos&order=ASC)

http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/draft

Even better, then.

Mecca
12-15-2007, 02:47 PM
Either way both those guys are far better than anyone on our team......and are much better than any of the Olineman.

Tribal Warfare
12-15-2007, 02:48 PM
that logic is futile.

KC needs impact players like D-Bowe, unless they're a pro-bowler then every position is fair game.

Mecca
12-15-2007, 02:48 PM
Ok.......do some of you not realize this team has to rebuild? That doesn't mean you take an above average OT so try to get to 8-8. You take the elite players first.....this isn't a 1 year thing, this is a full on project...

Don't worry though Carl will do what you guys want thus giving this franchise no hope.

RustShack
12-15-2007, 02:50 PM
The team has been alluding to "trading down" in multiple artices. Whether they do will be seen on draft day.

I didn't read anything about trading down in that. I read they had a lot of picks and could be active in trading for more picks. Which means they are more likely to keep their first round pick, and package some of their other picks to get better ones.

KC Tattoo
12-15-2007, 02:50 PM
I'm for building a foundation with an elite LT in the draft for the long hall. & I'd love it to get an elite DT too, if we can get an elite LT in the second round fine but it is more important to keep the QB alive and the offense to be built first than the defense. The defense will get better with an offense that can get first downs and extend drives and score points. If we don't get an elite LT or fix this O-line then we are going to go through tons of QBs and RBs with out getting anywhere to show for it.


Our O-line is in a worse state than the D-line. Our O-line makes the whole team look bad.

RustShack
12-15-2007, 02:51 PM
Boone and Edwards didn't "dominate" college olineman like you say, otherwise they would have been drafted high.

Mecca
12-15-2007, 02:51 PM
I'm for building a foundation with an elite LT in the draft for the long hall. & I'd love it to get an elite DT too, if we can get an elite LT in the second round fine but it is more important to keep the QB alive and the offense to be built first than the defense. The defense will get better with an offense that can get first downs and extend drives and score points. If we don't get an elite LT or fix this O-line then we are going to go through tons of QBs and RBs with out getting anywhere to show for it.


Our O-line is in a worse state than the D-line. Our O-line makes the whole team look bad.

There aren't any elite LT's...that's the whole point of this arguement. Unless the guy is Pace, or Joe Thomas or Walter Jones he isn't worth a top 10 pick......

You guys are perfectly fine picking Jeff Backus in the top 10 huh?

This isn't a question to you as more the people trumping Oline to everything.

RustShack
12-15-2007, 02:53 PM
There are no elite LT's this year. There are only pretty good ones who will still be availiable in the 2nd round. If there was an elite LT in this years draft, it would be a given that we should draft that player.

Count Alex's Wins
12-15-2007, 02:55 PM
Imagine the Chiefs getting Warren Sapp this year and then grabbing Orlando Pace in the next draft.

Or we could go out and get Jeff Backus now and still be looking for Warren Sapp.

Mecca
12-15-2007, 02:55 PM
I just don't think some people get it......the difference in Jake Long and Barry Richardson is nothing.....while the real elite guys like Dorsey, Ellis, Chris Long...those positions aren't deep enough to have a player even close to similar available in the 2nd round...After those 2 top DT's there's a giant dropoff.

I'll say this, if this team traded out with Glenn Dorsey on the board, or didn't take him......I'd give up.

KC Tattoo
12-15-2007, 02:56 PM
Imagine the Chiefs getting Warren Sapp this year and then grabbing Orlando Pace in the next draft.

Or we could go out and get Jeff Backus now and still be looking for Warren Sapp.

NO

Mecca
12-15-2007, 02:57 PM
I agree the team needs better players everywhere. We can get numerous picks for our top 10 pick, and that would have a greater impact at making this team better.

just like in gambling (such as in blackjack), in drafting its wise to have a strategy. If we can split our top 10 pick, than i think that would be in the best interest of the team.

You are advocating having a few alright mediocre players instead of 1 great one......

I guess when the Colts really sucked they should have traded out because having 5 alright starters would be better than having Peyton Manning :rolleyes:

Mecca
12-15-2007, 02:57 PM
NO

Uh what......his analogy is basically spot on.

Tribal Warfare
12-15-2007, 02:58 PM
I'll say this, if this team traded out with Glenn Dorsey on the board, or didn't take him......I'd give up.



automatic weapons, meeting Carl comes to mind.

RustShack
12-15-2007, 03:01 PM
We already have 10 picks, we are most likely going to have more by the time the draft comes around. We are already loaded with picks, there is no need to trade down. Tradeing down would be like giving the super bowl champion the number 1 pick, and the worst team the 32nd. That is just nuts, bad teams have higher picks because they need the elite players.

Mecca
12-15-2007, 03:02 PM
I agree the team needs better players everywhere. We can get numerous picks for our top 10 pick, and that would have a greater impact at making this team better.

just like in gambling (such as in blackjack), in drafting its wise to have a strategy. If we can split our top 10 pick, than i think that would be in the best interest of the team.

Those FA DT's they've also worked out so well........the only one out there is Haynesworth and I don't think Tennessee lets him out...they'll tag him before they let him go.

I just think it's completely stupid to advocate not drafting an elite player at a position because another guy didn't work out. The top 10 pick should be a superstar....the next couple of picks can be a mix of need and best player.....

This team has far to many issues and holes to fill to be worried about 1 thing above all else.

Mecca
12-15-2007, 03:03 PM
We already have 10 picks, we are most likely going to have more by the time the draft comes around. We are already loaded with picks, there is no need to trade down. Tradeing down would be like giving the super bowl champion the number 1 pick, and the worst team the 32nd. That is just nuts, bad teams have higher picks because they need the elite players.

What a concept huh?

You also can't have 14 picks and use them all because the size of the rookie cap wouldn't allow you to sign them all.

KC Tattoo
12-15-2007, 03:03 PM
I just don't think some people get it......the difference in Jake Long and Barry Richardson is nothing.....while the real elite guys like Dorsey, Ellis, Chris Long...those positions aren't deep enough to have a player even close to similar available in the 2nd round...After those 2 top DT's there's a giant dropoff.

I'll say this, if this team traded out with Glenn Dorsey on the board, or didn't take him......I'd give up.

I get it. Hopefully we can get Ellis in the first and a good LT in the second and next year we can still draft an elite LT to make up for it for the long hall. It's going to take a few years for this O-line to become anything like it use to be. Just as long as our QB isn't going to get killed before the line starts to gell.

Mr. Laz
12-15-2007, 03:04 PM
are you that thick?

do you need to ask?

Tribal Warfare
12-15-2007, 03:04 PM
I'm starting to believe that we'll have to stay with McIntosh for one more year also.

Count Alex's Wins
12-15-2007, 03:07 PM
I'm starting to believe that we'll have to stay with McIntosh for one more year also.

There's nothing wrong with that, either, IMO. If we get a RT in the 2nd and sign a G in free agency, I think the line will be much better.

Meanwhile we get Ellis or Dorsey and have one of the best defensive lines in the league, and the defense will hopefully become elite.

KC Tattoo
12-15-2007, 03:09 PM
Uh what......his analogy is basically spot on.

What is the point of getting Warren Sapp? I thought this team was suppose to be getting younger? He hasn't turned the Raiders fortunes around and made them even a good team, yes their Defense has been ok, good last year but he is no ancwer to our problems.

the Talking Can
12-15-2007, 03:09 PM
If we have a shot at Ellis or Dorsey, we HAVE to take them...we need a franchise DT every bit as much as a franchise LT....guys like Seymour and Harris are defensive foundations...

Boone, Ellis, Allen is 3/4s of a great, dominating DL...and if Tank pans out, all the better..he'll be ready when Boone retires...

but let's say we're picking 5th, or 6th, and they're gone...then maybe you look at trading down for 2 different reasons:

1. Value - you identify the #2 and #3 LT on the board and drop 5-10 spots in return for a high 2nd, low 1st....well done, Carl

2. Leverage - Brian Brohm is still available at your spot and some team below you is uber-horny for him...you make them pay a premium, a 2nd this year and a 1st next year, or whatever...again, good job, Carl....and you still have a shot at a top 4-5 LT (which is fine because they does not appear to be an elite LT...who knows, we could be wrong about that)

in each case the extra 2nd rounder gives you a shot at another starting OL, or maybe a WR/CB/LB...

RustShack
12-15-2007, 03:10 PM
I never said they dominated college lineman, but their level of play has progressed. IMO, at their current level of play they would dominate college Olineman.

I dont know your level of education, but an equivalent analogy is that if you went back to highschool or middle school now, you would be expected to do much better because you are at a greater level now than you were then. At least most would.

you dont know who will be available when.

once again, you dont know who will be available when. The only way the team is going to be in a position to get an elite player next yr is if they again have a poor record, which is not what I want.


So what your saying is Ellis or Doresy can't improve, and only late round picks can? OK that makes a lot of sense to me now. This is a strong year for good olineman, it will be impossible for there to not be one in the very early 2nd round. Hell some of them could even fall to us in the 3rd round. Unless every team drafts an olineman in the first round, we will be fine.

KC Tattoo
12-15-2007, 03:11 PM
How old is Orlando Pace?

Count Alex's Wins
12-15-2007, 03:11 PM
I think I'd absolutely trade down if those two tackles are off the board....Mecca? Is there a corner available? I don't think drafting a QB is such a great idea at this point.

Count Alex's Wins
12-15-2007, 03:13 PM
Thats YOUR OPINION, most other sites and people say otherwise.

LOL...not really. I haven't seen many sites proclaiming Long the next Willie Roaf.

Mecca
12-15-2007, 03:13 PM
Dude he didn't say get Sapp or Pace.......he's saying a player like them, it's an analogy to the quality if the player.

RustShack
12-15-2007, 03:14 PM
Yes, if there are no elite players left, we can trade down some. We should also be using our later picks to trade up too. This could and should be our best draft in a long long time. We will have great position in every round, and we have a lot of picks to trade up for higher ones.

Tribal Warfare
12-15-2007, 03:14 PM
Is there a corner available?


Malcolm Jenkins of the Ohio State University

Mecca
12-15-2007, 03:15 PM
Thats YOUR OPINION, most other sites and people say otherwise.

we can still get good players in the middle/end of the 1st rnd. we got DJ, Tamb, Bowe their.


We have far more than 10 holes on our team. I have predicted that we will have competition for about 30 of our 53 positions.

And although we have that many picks, the best way (generally) to make your team good overall is getting as many 1st day picks as possible. The trading down from our top 10 pick will get us more 1st day picks. We can trade up our numerous lower round picks (if we have to for rookie cap concerns) for 1 more 1st day pick.


why? just like in the overall salary cap, the rookie cap # can be modified with guarantees, #of yrs of contract, etc.

You can't.......it was talked about a few years ago when the Eagles had a bunch of picks that they'd have to make trades because they wouldn't be able to sign all their picks.......there's no way around that...

I also like that you think this team is gonna be good next year and wanna play for that.......Yes lets play to be the ok team that gets killed by the Pats and Colts, not play to be a team that is them.

Mecca
12-15-2007, 03:16 PM
I'm fully convinced after the threads of the last week on this board and some of the posters.....some people have no concept of how to build a team or what the draft is about...

Or honestly how bad this team is or what it means to be a championship caliber team.

RustShack
12-15-2007, 03:16 PM
The problem is, even if we drafted more than 10 players like you want to, there is no way we could sign them all. You can't completely overturn a team through one draft. It is a process that takes years.

Mecca
12-15-2007, 03:17 PM
I think I'd absolutely trade down if those two tackles are off the board....Mecca? Is there a corner available? I don't think drafting a QB is such a great idea at this point.

Tell me what pick you think the Chiefs are going to have........I'll give you some players that should be available.

If it's 4th or 5th we shouldn't have to much of a problem with 1 of the guy still being there.

Count Alex's Wins
12-15-2007, 03:21 PM
Tell me what pick you think the Chiefs are going to have........I'll give you some players that should be available.

If it's 4th or 5th we shouldn't have to much of a problem with 1 of the guy still being there.

I think we'll pick 7th or 8th.

Mecca
12-15-2007, 03:22 PM
are you that thick?

do you need to ask?

After this thread.....he should ask himself that question.

Count Alex's Wins
12-15-2007, 03:22 PM
Dorsey needs to be playing against NFL lineman before people argue that he is better than NFL DT. that would be a flawed conclusion (just like yours above).

LOL

Maybe we can trade Ron Edwards to the team that drafts Sedrick Ellis...I'm sure they would do that for us.

Mecca
12-15-2007, 03:23 PM
I think we'll pick 7th or 8th.

You think the Chiefs are gonna win a game........AHHHH NOOO!

Deberg_1990
12-15-2007, 03:23 PM
I think we'll pick 7th or 8th.

This team wont win another game.

Ill go with 5th or 6th.

Count Alex's Wins
12-15-2007, 03:24 PM
Now show me sites that say that Long is at the same level as Barry Richardson.

There's not a huge difference. Long is not a franchise left tackle.

Sedrick Ellis and Barry Richardson with our first two picks would look damn good.

RustShack
12-15-2007, 03:25 PM
So let me get this straight. It is more likely for a pretty good college LT go be good against an NFL Dline than it is for an elite college DT to be good against an NFL Oline?

Mecca
12-15-2007, 03:26 PM
Ok I'll list it like this if the Chiefs are 7-8......

The guys likely to be gone are...Dorsey, Chris Long, McFadden, Jake Long-someone will reach, Sedrick Ellis and probably 1 or 2 QB's and Malcolm Jenkins.....the last couple I mentioned could change based on team needs they'll all be going in that general area.

Count Alex's Wins
12-15-2007, 03:26 PM
you cant trade players to college,
Ron Edwards no longer has college eligibility (yrs),
Since Edwards has recieved football compensation he cant compete,
since edwards has aldready declared and participated in the nfl draft he cant compete.


I know you were trying to make a joke, but it was stupid.

LOL, who's stupid? I was talking about trading Ron Edwards to an NFL team, not a college team. Read the post again.

Mecca
12-15-2007, 03:27 PM
So let me get this straight. It is more likely for a pretty good college LT go be good against an NFL Dline than it is for an elite college DT to be good against an NFL Oline?

Well he thinks 2 average guys would be better for us than an elite guy...so don't mind him.

RustShack
12-15-2007, 03:28 PM
LOL, who's stupid? I was talking about trading Ron Edwards to an NFL team, not a college team. Read the post again.

And he thinks I'm the one who needs to go back to school, he can't even read!

Mecca
12-15-2007, 03:29 PM
did i ever say that? read my posts...go ahead...

I want you to explain to me why you think an above average alright guy is better to have than an elite guy....

Also this offense isn't nearly as close as you try to make it sound...it's YEARS away, not 1 offseason.

RustShack
12-15-2007, 03:29 PM
did i ever say that? read my posts...go ahead...

Your saying we don't know that he will be good in the NFL, the same exact argument can be used for ANY player in the draft.

RustShack
12-15-2007, 03:31 PM
I would rather take two 1st round picks instead of one 1st round pick.

2 > 1

Since Dallas is the only team with 2 first round picks, you are saying we have to trade with them. Call them up and see what they think.

Mecca
12-15-2007, 03:31 PM
I would rather take two 1st round picks instead of one 1st round pick.

2 > 1

We aren't getting 2 1st round picks for moving down.....also the only team that has 2 first rounders it would just be stupid to drop that far...a top 5 pick possibly going down with a team that both their first rounders are playoff team picks?

A team like the Pats can do that because they have a core...we can't. You do know the Pats took Richard Seymour 6th overall right.....even they have an elite top 10 pick.

Tribal Warfare
12-15-2007, 03:32 PM
I would rather take two 1st round picks instead of one 1st round pick.

2 > 1

Are you saying you'd take two average players, over an All-world stud?

Mecca
12-15-2007, 03:32 PM
Since Dallas is the only team with 2 first round picks, you are saying we have to trade with them. Call them up and see what they think.

I don't like that.......it's their pick and Clevelands pick....so it would be like pick 31 and pick 27 or something like that...you think it's worth that?

Mecca
12-15-2007, 03:33 PM
Are you saying you'd take two average players, over an All-world stud?

I think he thinks this team is a playoff team if they get 2 ok Olineman, which is pretty comical.

RustShack
12-15-2007, 03:34 PM
I don't like that.......it's their pick and Clevelands pick....so it would be like pick 31 and pick 27 or something like that...you think it's worth that?

There is no way I take that, I want the elite player.

the Talking Can
12-15-2007, 03:34 PM
I feel like I am arguing against a wall.

I never said Ellis or Dorsey couldnt improve, I am astounded how you came to that conclusion.

I was responding to this comment by Goatse:
http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showpost.php?p=4455535&postcount=84

Dorsey needs to be playing against NFL lineman before people argue that he is better than NFL DT. that would be a flawed conclusion (just like yours above). One could argue that Ellis and Dorsey are the top DT in college or the 2008 draft, but not necessarily better than NFL DT because the competition is diffrent.

you might want to read this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Talk:Logical_fallacy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misuse_of_statistics


huh?

Dwane Bowe was better in college than Sammie Parker in the pros...anyone with eyes could see that.

Ardrien Peterson was better in college than a lot of NFL RBs.

There are many, many examples of this.

Tribal Warfare
12-15-2007, 03:37 PM
If we use those 2 1st round picks to upgrade our 2 weakest positions,




stopgaps, instead of selecting an elite player? Brilliant!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

RustShack
12-15-2007, 03:38 PM
You know the great thing about this years draft if there is a lot of near equal talent for olineman. Meaning we don't need to trade down to get one. There will for sure be one when we draft in the 2nd round. Great guards usually go in the 3rd or 4th round.

Mecca
12-15-2007, 03:39 PM
If we use those 2 1st round picks to upgrade our 2 weakest positions,

or

get the 2 BPA remaining, than the team will improve substantially.

Why dont you list what you think are the weaknesses of the team from greatest to least?
Here is mine.
1. RT
2. RG
3. C
4. LT
5. CB
6. wr
7. LDE
8. DT

IMO, if we upgrade both our offensive tackle positions (via a trade down from our 1st pick) it would make a bigger impact than upgrading our DT position.

And here is your problem.....you do not draft based on what your biggest need is when you have a whole bunch of needs. You take the best player and the guy with the most value.....

Example, you say RT and RG are the biggest needs well on draft day those 2 positions aren't nearly as valued as LT, DE, DT or QB....so you could take a DT first and still fill RT and RG....there are 7 rounds you don't need to trade down either....

I don't think some people fully grasp what positions have more value in the draft especially when there is an elite player compared to an above average player. Jake Long to a lot of people projects as an RT, that alone hurts his value.....He might be a great RT but even the best RT in the game doesn't have the same value as having one of the best DT's in the game.

Fruit Ninja
12-15-2007, 03:40 PM
Not worried about them. No DT's stand out in their first year. It takes a good 2-3 years before you can tell.

Mecca
12-15-2007, 03:40 PM
You know the great thing about this years draft if there is a lot of near equal talent for olineman. Meaning we don't need to trade down to get one. There will for sure be one when we draft in the 2nd round. Great guards usually go in the 3rd or 4th round.

You and I get the thing about lineman depth and close to the same values.........a lot of other people here don't.

Count Alex's Wins
12-15-2007, 03:42 PM
Imagine if we drafted Ryan Diem while passing on Tommie Harris...HOLY SHIT.

Mecca
12-15-2007, 03:46 PM
As i've argued before, that is a theoretical ideal. Teams get a combination of BPA + need =value. If the BPA was a QB or RB, would you draft them with our top 10 pick?

If what you said is true, you woud see some team over the course of history get a ton of players at 1 position such as CB or saftey because they were the BPA when they drafted. you dont see a team draft 5 cb or DT. it doesnt happen.

That is why I said you do it to A POINT, I wouldn't take a RB in the Chiefs spot because they wear out far to quickly for him to still be contributing when the team was ready...you don't start building with a RB he should be one of the last pieces......

Would I take a QB.....absolutely because with the Chiefs you don't know. Now a couple teams wouldn't......

But like I said we aren't the Pats or the Colts or the Cowboys that have a well defined core of players and can curb their draft to a few positions. We have holes everywhere......

That's why those are championship caliber teams and this one is 4-9, huge difference. Our team is awful we need everything.

Mecca
12-15-2007, 03:47 PM
there are alot of things you can imagine...liek that you have a shot with Carrie or LJ.


...now back to the real word, not make believe.

What he said is pretty much what you are advocating...

SBK
12-15-2007, 04:11 PM
getting worked up in this thread is retarded.
what we all are advocating is make believe. none of us have a say of what the chiefs can draft.

you and GOATSE want to draft a DT.

I want to draft Oline or trade down if a worthy lineman isnt available and get more 1st day picks.

the chiefs will do whatever they want.

end of discussion.

Dorsey or Ellis are on the board when we pick--who do you take instead?

RustShack
12-15-2007, 04:17 PM
Here we go again...

RustShack
12-15-2007, 04:24 PM
According to that draft, the elite would be gone when we draft, and we should also have a higher pick than that. Take for instance, it has NE taking McFadden in that draft, but it doesn't have RB as a need. That is because you draft for the best players, not always needs. It is ok to reach a little bit, but when there is an elite player you could use, you take him.

Mecca
12-15-2007, 04:48 PM
The Pats would take Chris Long before they take Jake Long......they realize the value on those players....

The Pats are taking McFadden, or Chris Long if they don't con some team out of a bunch of picks.

RustShack
12-15-2007, 04:49 PM
The reason NE is so good is because they draft the best player availiable.

Mecca
12-15-2007, 04:53 PM
The reason NE is so good is because they draft the best player availiable.

They also realize what the most important positions and move valued are....

Look how many Dlineman they have taken when having a top 20 pick, that team has a ton of 1st round Dlineman.......

Mecca
12-15-2007, 04:58 PM
They traded because the only player they really liked was Meriweather and they got him.....they didn't consider it that good of a draft......for where they had picks...

When they had high picks they made good picks on Seymour and Ty Warren and built their Dline. The Pats don't trade back just to trade back they trade back if they don't value any of the players......I'm sorry at 4 or 5 you can't say you don't "value" those players...

If the Pats trade back this year it will be because they got a ton, or they'll stand in the spot and take Chris Long...

JohnnyV13
12-15-2007, 04:59 PM
If you are gonna play this cover 2 shit and well any defense now, you need at least 1 DT that can pass rush and get in the backfield...Ellis is that. He isn't a take up blockers guy, he's a make plays guy...

Don't get me started on Sims, that was an example of the Chiefs moron organization and Vermiel buying into Buntinng and the scouts being stupid. Everyone knew before that draft Henderson was widely regarded as the best guy...then we take Sims. That pick pissed me off to no end.


Aren't you being slightly revisionist here? Early on, Henderson was generally considered the top pick. Later, Sims started moving up the draft boards. The Chiefs weren't the only team that had him rated as the top DT pick. so did Minnesota (at least).

Henderson dropped due to concerns about a congenital spinal defect. (It hasn't seemed to bother him). Haynesworth was considered the most athletically gifted DT prospect, but that he had character issues.

Tribal Warfare
12-15-2007, 05:00 PM
who is the ALL world stud? and who are the two avg players?




Answer the question, who would you want with those traded picks?

Mecca
12-15-2007, 05:02 PM
And the Chiefs thought Henderson was to tall.....

A guy like Sims draws flags from me right away..he played next to a great player, he wasn't the best his team mate was.......

Not to mention he moved up after the season ended...to me playing means more than workouts unless some guy has a huge red flag like being overly slow.

CupidStunt
12-15-2007, 05:04 PM
This thread: :LOL:

Count Alex's Wins
12-15-2007, 05:30 PM
Who is available and what picks do i get?

since you didnt provide that info I will say Michael Oher and Phil Loadholt.

And since neither will likely come out this year, who then?

Tribal Warfare
12-15-2007, 05:30 PM
Who is available and what picks do i get?

since you didnt provide that info I will say Michael Oher and Phil Loadholt.


LMAO deflection

Halfcan
12-15-2007, 05:59 PM
Have Turk and Tank done anything to this point to justify their draft selection? If we have a chance at a top DT next April we should take him.

I agree-these were dumb picks to start with. Maybe the Chiefs should buy a couple of draft magazines next year-so they know drafting a guy in the 2nd round that was ranked in the 6th round is not a good idea.

Messier
12-15-2007, 06:07 PM
No! No more chasing DT's. Lets' see what Tyler can do in his second year. Dt's many times grow into their roles. Hanesworth sucked for almost four years before the light went on. No. Boone is a good DT and we can look for more in FA, but a DT taken in the 1st round will be a wasted pick IMO.

FAX
12-15-2007, 06:11 PM
Ouch. When asked about lack of PT for the rookies, Herm allows, "It’s because the games have been so close. We feel like we can’t allow teams to have one or two big plays on us. You get nervous about that some."

I ask you. Is that a "rebuilding" mentality?

FAX

Tribal Warfare
12-15-2007, 06:14 PM
No! No more chasing DT's. Lets' see what Tyler can do in his second year. Dt's many times grow into their roles. Hanesworth sucked for almost four years before the light went on. No. Boone is a good DT and we can look for more in FA, but a DT taken in the 1st round will be a wasted pick IMO.

BPA, if it's a DT then you pick that player.

ChiefsCountry
12-15-2007, 08:18 PM
Wow this thread is freaking hilarous. Those who dont think we need a DT are basically blind. A DT will be a better selection in the top 5 more than likely and its position of need heck outside of hmm maybe running back we need BPA. Tank has a chance to be a good DT, but I think McBride is going to be a John Browning type.

siberian khatru
12-15-2007, 08:21 PM
And the Chiefs thought Henderson was to tall.....

A guy like Sims draws flags from me right away..he played next to a great player, he wasn't the best his team mate was.......

Not to mention he moved up after the season ended...to me playing means more than workouts unless some guy has a huge red flag like being overly slow.

The Force was strong with John Bunting.

MadMax
12-15-2007, 08:43 PM
Ouch. When asked about lack of PT for the rookies, Herm allows, "It’s because the games have been so close. We feel like we can’t allow teams to have one or two big plays on us. You get nervous about that some."

I ask you. Is that a "rebuilding" mentality?

FAX


That is the retarded mentality that is Herm :) and Carl.. When they failed to eek out a couple more wins they immediately went into the " but we are rebuilding defense " Whatta couple of freakin losers!!! Oh yea and we need to " get over it " ROFL! :deevee:

MadMax
12-15-2007, 08:46 PM
where did you read Turk was ranked in the 6th rnd?


Mad Magazine ROFL

TEX
12-15-2007, 09:16 PM
Ouch. When asked about lack of PT for the rookies, Herm allows, "It’s because the games have been so close. We feel like we can’t allow teams to have one or two big plays on us. You get nervous about that some."

I ask you. Is that a "rebuilding" mentality?

FAX

In case he hasn't noticed, we're not even compeitive, we're getting BLOWN OUT now.

MadMax
12-15-2007, 10:17 PM
In case he hasn't noticed, we're not even compeitive, we're getting BLOWN OUT now.



One step further my friend, we are absolutely embarrasing...:( Good start to the BIG rebuild there Herm and Carl....Playing 30+ year old players ahead of your rooks really helps alot..Maybe that vein in his forehead is really an anuerism???

FAX
12-15-2007, 10:35 PM
Not only are we not competitive and absolutely embarrassing, two of our coaches like to play glamour dress up on Tuesday evenings.

FAX

morphius
12-15-2007, 10:44 PM
No! No more chasing DT's. Lets' see what Tyler can do in his second year. Dt's many times grow into their roles. Hanesworth sucked for almost four years before the light went on. No. Boone is a good DT and we can look for more in FA, but a DT taken in the 1st round will be a wasted pick IMO.
It wasn't that long ago that we were saying the same thing about LT in the draft.

Tribal Warfare
12-15-2007, 11:27 PM
It wasn't that long ago that we were saying the same thing about LT in the draft.


and RBs

SBK
12-15-2007, 11:29 PM
I think we can all agree that this place is going to be a freaking riot on draft day......

MadMax
12-15-2007, 11:30 PM
I think we can all agree that this place is going to be a freaking riot on draft day......


Can't wait!! :p

Dylan
12-15-2007, 11:35 PM
Speaking of Kansas City, there is growing speculation that coach Herman Edwards may be fired. The Chiefs are anemic on offense and the team's brass may look for an offensive-minded coach. To Edwards' credit, the Chiefs have shown some defensive improvement and his players appear to like working for him. ... Denver Post

http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_7716359

SBK
12-15-2007, 11:38 PM
Can't wait!! :p

Me either--although I may try to go to a draft party somewhere, maybe the ESPN Zone or something.

MadMax
12-15-2007, 11:40 PM
Me either--although I may try to go to a draft party somewhere, maybe the ESPN Zone or something.


sad but it seems that will be the highlight of our season :(

Tribal Warfare
12-15-2007, 11:45 PM
James "Baby Animal" Laurinaitis , going off of the DTvs OT debate. He's another BPA that could be on the board, would anyone shit cows if we picked him instead of an OT? I wouldn't, the kid is really instinctive and athletic.

CupidStunt
12-16-2007, 08:45 AM
The one thing that a lot of people are ignoring is that DT is a major need. The Chiefs suck against the run and only get pressure when blitzing or when Jared Allen is in his zone.

TRR
12-16-2007, 10:34 AM
ignoring the fact that Tamba is young, and just based on production on the field, LDE is a bigger need than DT. He is the major reason we suck against the run, and he is the reason that we arent getting much pressure.

Hali has been playing hurt all season long. Hali is the least of our problems.

the Talking Can
12-16-2007, 10:40 AM
James "Baby Animal" Laurinaitis , going off of the DTvs OT debate. He's another BPA that could be on the board, would anyone shit cows if we picked him instead of an OT? I wouldn't, the kid is really instinctive and athletic.

I wouldn't, but yeah people would definitely freak out...but I wouldn't take him over Ellis/Dorsey or even Long.

the Talking Can
12-16-2007, 10:47 AM
The one thing that a lot of people are ignoring is that DT is a major need. The Chiefs suck against the run and only get pressure when blitzing or when Jared Allen is in his zone.

we have 1 good DT: Boone...and he is 30...and if he is injured we have nothing...

Tribal Warfare
12-16-2007, 03:17 PM
We don't need any DTs!!!!!!!!!!!!! LMAO

Tribal Warfare
12-16-2007, 03:36 PM
30 is not that old. DTs now are playing into their late 30s.

We have Turk and Tank
if I had to pick Dline w/ our 1st pick I would rather have Chris long instead of Dorsey or Ellis.


Did you watch the game? The KC defense gave up 148 yard rushing AT HOME.

Mecca
12-16-2007, 03:37 PM
Just for the record as of now Laurinaitis isn't going to come out...

Tribal Warfare
12-16-2007, 03:39 PM
Just for the record as of now Laurinaitis isn't going to come out...


http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/football/ncaa/12/13/ohiost.juniors.ap/


yes he is

SBK
12-16-2007, 03:41 PM
30 is not that old. DTs now are playing into their late 30s.

We have Turk and Tank
if I had to pick Dline w/ our 1st pick I would rather have Chris long instead of Dorsey or Ellis.

A great DT would make every single position on our defense better. As of today neither Turk nor Tank is great. :(

They could be pretty good though, who knows.

Tribal Warfare
12-16-2007, 03:44 PM
yup, but you assume the rushing yards are up the middle where a DT is. Hali is 29th against the rush at his position while Boon is #1 and Edwards is 16th.

Also, alot of those rushing yards came when TENN got the lead and were milking the clock, before that time KC had given up less than 60.




Hali had a decent game, it was all on the DTs. If Dorsey or Ellis is available I'd take that player.

HC_Chief
12-16-2007, 03:47 PM
KC drafts two more turds on the DL... wow, what a shocker!

Mecca
12-16-2007, 03:47 PM
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/football/ncaa/12/13/ohiost.juniors.ap/


yes he is

Um Joe Schad on ESPN news 2 days ago said he asked him about it and he said was leaning to coming back right now.....so much so he was going to talk to the other Ohio State guys to see if they wanted to come back too.

CupidStunt
12-16-2007, 03:51 PM
Dude, stop being an idiot. I don't think you are one, but you're not making it very easy to say that.

Our DTs are AWFUL. If the BPA on the board is a DT, you friggin' take him in a second and don't think twice.

Tribal Warfare
12-16-2007, 03:52 PM
today hali had a decent game, but overall he has had a dissapointing season (more so than our DT IMO).

His 6 TKL and .5sack isnt something to jump up and down about.



the DT's suck, and yes Boone had a good year but he's at the downswing of his career. Eveyone else at that position has been none existent, if the BPA is a DT take him

suds79
12-16-2007, 03:57 PM
the DT's suck, and yes Boone had a good year but he's at the downswing of his career. Eveyone else at that position has been none existent, if the BPA is a DT take him

Lets just take it a step further. I've thought about this and I'm now all for it simply because I'm so sick of us chasing DTs. It's like the never ending story. "We need a DT."

So I hope we spend every single draft pick next year on DTs just for the odds that we might find one good one.

Who's with me? :thumb:

Tribal Warfare
12-16-2007, 04:05 PM
There are those on this board which will continue to post "draft DT" and I will continue to post "draft OT"....its obvious our minds are made up and neither side is going to change.





No, I want to draft the BPA, and in this case it would either be McFadden, Dorsey, or Ellis.

Tribal Warfare
12-16-2007, 04:15 PM
t

Furthermore, I am not comfortable drafting McFadden even if he is the BPA.


because you are so damned dead set for a Left Tackle, that you are blinded by the other positions that have talent in the draft

suds79
12-16-2007, 04:19 PM
because you are so damned dead set for a Left Tackle, that you are blinded by the other positions that have talent in the draft

Tribal I have just one simple question about the BPA theory.

Please help me understand.

Say the BPA in the 1st is McFadden. Fabulous player. I agree.

So RB in round one?

What if the BPA in round 2 is a RB? What if the BPA in round 3 is a RB? and round 4.

When drafting this next year, say the Chief's BPA on their board 4 or so times is a RB. Would you draft 4 RBs? That's all.

Tribal Warfare
12-16-2007, 04:21 PM
Tribal I have just one simple question about the BPA theory.

Please help me understand.

Say the BPA in the 1st is McFadden. Fabulous player. I agree.

So RB in round one?

What if the BPA in round 2 is a RB? What if the BPA in round 3 is a RB? and round 4.

When drafting this next year, say the Chief's BPA on their board 4 or so times is a RB. Would you draft 4 RBs? That's all.



With how many players they're are in the nfl draft this is an unlikely scenario. With the added fact that this year is deep with solid tackles this year, so it would most likely be an OT in the 2nd

suds79
12-16-2007, 04:24 PM
With how many players they're are in the nfl draft this is an unlikely scenario

Okay probably true. How about this.

BPA in the 1st, McFadden. So we draft him.

Let's say in the 2nd the BPA is a RB. Would you take him?

Certainly it's not out of the realm of reality for their 2nd pick the BPA to be a RB.

Tribal Warfare
12-16-2007, 04:25 PM
thats not true. I have also advocated for trading down. trading down for an solid to above average player, nice!



it is YOU who are set on drafting DT everything else be damned!



where do I say that? I've been advocating the BPA.

CupidStunt
12-16-2007, 04:25 PM
Our LDE has been playing worse than our DT.

No. Stop referring to that FootballOutsiders garbage. It's hogwash. The run defense stinks, and the DTs are absolute trash. Yes, Hali's been crap, but that's independent. The entire front seven stinks outside of DJ and Allen--at least when he shows up.

Hopefully, the BPA will be a OT and we take him.

I hope so, too, but I doubt it, and they still should go BPA, or trade down and THEN take the BPA.

There are those on this board which will continue to post "draft DT" and I will continue to post "draft OT"

All are fools.

The mantra is simple: Draft the best OT, DT or CB available ... unless something unforeseen happens and a guy like Chris Long is available.

TEX
12-16-2007, 04:31 PM
The mantra is simple: Draft the best OT, DT or CB available ... unless something unforeseen happens and a guy like Chris Long is available.

Absolutely! :clap:

Frankie
12-17-2007, 10:02 AM
Okay probably true. How about this.

BPA in the 1st, McFadden. So we draft him.

Let's say in the 2nd the BPA is a RB. Would you take him?

Certainly it's not out of the realm of reality for their 2nd pick the BPA to be a RB.
for someone who accuses others for being "dead set" on a particular option, TW does not come down from his BPA position, come hell or high water. Everything has its time and place. For us, this year BPA is NOT the way to go unless the BPA IS at the position of our most glaring need. If that's not the case trading down for more picks and targeting, say, a stud LT "at value" is the way to go. There are always ways to go around problems. If we pick 4th, I wouldn't want Jake Long because of all the things I hear about him being a RT in disguise. But I would try to get him, or Clady or some such player, say, around 12th. There's no benefit in being unbending with ANY theory.