PDA

View Full Version : Chiefs Explain to me why we need to give Herm more time


Pages : [1] 2

Dave Lane
12-17-2007, 11:14 AM
After seeing my worst fears come true in Herm with the Jetsification of the Chiefs (a top 5 draft pick) and the destruction of a team. I wonder in this microwave world of instant gratification how is it we cling to the notion 2 years doesn't set a trend especially giving his previous body of work. So I thought well surely 2 years must be handed out like candy in the past to any head coach and then it occurred to me to check the Chiefs history to confirm this.

Chiefs Head Coaches with shortest tenures:

Tom Bettis - 1977
Frank Gansz - 1987-1988
Gunther Cunningham - 1999-2000
Paul Wiggin - 1975-1977
John Mackovic - 1983-1986

Thats half of the Chiefs Head Coaches in the history of this team. 3 of them are 2 years or less. So in the present world why not cut ties with Herm. Actually excluding Herm 33% of Chiefs coaches have had a tenure of 2 years or less. And yes I know Bettis is a bad choice. Still 2 years of Herm like performance has cost coaches their jobs in the past.

Dave

Micjones
12-17-2007, 11:16 AM
I don't think he deserves more time, but only because I've seen enough failures of his own sans the team he inherited to know that he's not an NFL Head Coach.

JohninGpt
12-17-2007, 11:16 AM
Easy, we need to give Herm more time so we can have high draft picks two years in a row.

the Talking Can
12-17-2007, 11:17 AM
we don't

but unless Clark is ready to wipe the slate clean, fire everyone (GM, HC, OC,DC) it doesn't matter...

Mecca
12-17-2007, 11:18 AM
He's just frankly the wrong guy, his idea of wanting to draft, get young and build the team is right in theory but his idea of how to do it and how to play is wrong.

Wile_E_Coyote
12-17-2007, 11:21 AM
Give us a realistic alternative to Herm

Dave Lane
12-17-2007, 11:23 AM
He's just frankly the wrong guy, his idea of wanting to draft, get young and build the team is right in theory but his idea of how to do it and how to play is wrong.


Spot on Mr. Mecca.

Dave

Dave Lane
12-17-2007, 11:24 AM
Give us a realistic alternative to Herm

Bill Cowher. He's Herm with a plan and a set of balls.

Dave

DaKCMan AP
12-17-2007, 11:25 AM
Bill Cowher. He's Herm with a plan and a set of balls.

Dave

:bong:

Wile_E_Coyote
12-17-2007, 11:26 AM
Bill Cowher. He's Herm with a plan and a set of balls.

Dave
Why would he come here? San Diego is his if he wants it or for that matter several teams would drop their dead weight if he was interested

Mecca
12-17-2007, 11:26 AM
Cowher is basically a pipe dream.....

I'd wanna talk to whoever is Pioli's right hand man in NE is and see if we could hire him. That person has been in a successful organization and sees how things are done properly. Then go from there.

Rausch
12-17-2007, 11:26 AM
Bill Cowher. He's Herm with a plan and a set of balls.

Dave

I like that alternative.

But Cowher won't be back coaching next season. I also think if you know a rebuild or retooling or whatever is necessary you give your HC three years.

Herm/Carl get their three years and if/when it doesn't work Cowher's ready to come back with a ton of say in player/personel and city more than happy to have him. Timing.

King_Chief_Fan
12-17-2007, 11:29 AM
I would only keep him one more year IF Cowher could be had.

Gunther was .500 and was fired over the internet after 2 years. I don't think Herm deserves more than what Gunther was offered.

DaKCMan AP
12-17-2007, 11:31 AM
I would only keep him one more year IF Cowher could be had.

Gunther was .500 and was fired over the internet after 2 years. I don't think Herm deserves more than what Gunther was offered.

Gun wasn't rebuilding anything. He essentially kept the same team that Marty threw together the prior couple of years and had two horrible drafts.

Micjones
12-17-2007, 11:32 AM
Easy, we need to give Herm more time so we can have high draft picks two years in a row.

Touche.

OnTheWarpath58
12-17-2007, 11:32 AM
Could someone give me ONE LEGITIMATE REASON why Bill Cowher would take a job here?

He left one of the best jobs in the NFL, fresh off a SB win, to be closer to his family.

One reason?

Dave Lane
12-17-2007, 11:34 AM
Cowher is basically a pipe dream.....

I'd wanna talk to whoever is Pioli's right hand man in NE is and see if we could hire him. That person has been in a successful organization and sees how things are done properly. Then go from there.


For a coach?

Dave

Chiefnj2
12-17-2007, 11:35 AM
I like that alternative.

But Cowher won't be back coaching next season. I also think if you know a rebuild or retooling or whatever is necessary you give your HC three years.

Herm/Carl get their three years and if/when it doesn't work Cowher's ready to come back with a ton of say in player/personel and city more than happy to have him. Timing.

On paper I like the "three year rule", but in its application to KC it just stinks. Why give Carl/Herm another year of draftees and free agents when a new GM and coach will come around in 2009?

KCChiefsFan88
12-17-2007, 11:35 AM
He's just frankly the wrong guy, his idea of wanting to draft, get young and build the team is right in theory but his idea of how to do it and how to play is wrong.

100% Correct.

Seriously this comment should be sent to all the "Give Herm a chance to build his own team" crowd.

Mecca
12-17-2007, 11:35 AM
For a coach?

Dave

Oh no, it starts at GM, then you see who he likes as coach.

Dave Lane
12-17-2007, 11:36 AM
Could someone give me ONE LEGITIMATE REASON why Bill Cowher would take a job here?

He left one of the best jobs in the NFL, fresh off a SB win, to be closer to his family.

One reason?

How about 8,000,000 reasons? I'd pay it if I was Clark.

Dave

Coogs
12-17-2007, 11:36 AM
I think Herm came in saddled with an OC and a DC dictated by CP. Herm has mentioned on a couple of occasions lately that there are things he can not talk about as directed by powers above in the organization. And even though he came out and said Gun is his man for the DC spot, it is clear they are not on the same page.

I really believe Herm and Dungy are of the same mold, and I like what Dungy has done in both Indy and Tampa. But I believe Herm needs to be allowed to run the team the way he sees fit, and not with the meddling of the GM to interfer with the everyday operations of the coaching staff.

KCChiefsFan88
12-17-2007, 11:38 AM
I think Herm came in saddled with an OC and a DC dictated by CP. Herm has mentioned on a couple of occasions lately that there are things he can not talk about as directed by powers above in the organization. And even though he came out and said Gun is his man for the DC spot, it is clear they are not on the same page.

I really believe Herm and Dungy are of the same mold, and I like what Dungy has done in both Indy and Tampa. But I believe Herm needs to be allowed to run the team the way he sees fit, and not with the meddling of the GM to interfer with the everyday operations of the coaching staff.


That is complete BS... Herm was given complete freedom in hiring the coaching staff of his choice.

OnTheWarpath58
12-17-2007, 11:39 AM
How about 8,000,000 reasons? I'd pay it if I was Clark.

Dave


Good thing you're not Clark.

I don't think Cowher would come here even for that amount. TheRooney's offered him a substantial raise to stick around, and he still retired.

He didn't leave a great franchise with a great young roster to start a rebuilding project.

Mecca
12-17-2007, 11:39 AM
I think Herm came in saddled with an OC and a DC dictated by CP. Herm has mentioned on a couple of occasions lately that there are things he can not talk about as directed by powers above in the organization. And even though he came out and said Gun is his man for the DC spot, it is clear they are not on the same page.

I really believe Herm and Dungy are of the same mold, and I like what Dungy has done in both Indy and Tampa. But I believe Herm needs to be allowed to run the team the way he sees fit, and not with the meddling of the GM to interfer with the everyday operations of the coaching staff.

You know why the Colts win and why Dungy could never win in Tampa, Peyton Manning. You wanna play that the Chiefs are gonna get Manning? Also they have a GM that told Dungy he wasn't allowed to change the offense...

Also when Dungy in the past tried to pull typical Dungy moves Manning would overrule him. So until we get a QB with enough sack and enough stroke to tell the coach to suck it, we won't win.

Fish
12-17-2007, 11:39 AM
That is complete BS... Herm was given complete freedom in hiring the coaching staff of his choice.

What??? Please show me the proof of that.

Link?

Cochise
12-17-2007, 11:40 AM
I don't even want Cowher here, honestly. He reeks of the Marty/Herm school. And he wouldn't have the super bowl ring either, except for the most poorly officiated game in super bowl history.

Dave Lane
12-17-2007, 11:40 AM
Yep he even called Gun and asked him if he was ready to get started.

Dave

Coogs
12-17-2007, 11:40 AM
That is complete BS... Herm was given complete freedom in hiring the coaching staff of his choice.

I don't buy that. If it is so, then Herm needs to go.

Wile_E_Coyote
12-17-2007, 11:40 AM
Peterson knew Gun, Vermiel & Edwards. The one time he went with someone not of his cast of croonies is when he had his most success.

Mecca is no doubt right. Until Peterson is gone, it will just be more of the same. Keep Edwards until Carl isn't picking the HC's anymore

Micjones
12-17-2007, 11:41 AM
I think we can all agree that he should be given free reign and not have to operate under the same ideologies as the previous regime.

But at the same time, I've seen him make mistakes that are inexcusable no matter who the personnel or staff is.

Mecca
12-17-2007, 11:41 AM
I don't even want Cowher here, honestly. He reeks of the Marty/Herm school. And he wouldn't have the super bowl ring either, except for the most poorly officiated game in super bowl history.

Get someone that works with Polian or Pioli, those guys are by far the best GM's in the game. Not to mention from Polians time in Buffalo spawned several successful GM's that were his assistants.

Dave Lane
12-17-2007, 11:42 AM
Good thing you're not Clark.

I don't think Cowher would come here even for that amount. TheRooney's offered him a substantial raise to stick around, and he still retired.

He didn't leave a great franchise with a great young roster to start a rebuilding project.

He's been here before said he loved it. And he said he would take 2 years off coaching. That means he would be available in 08.

Dave

Coogs
12-17-2007, 11:42 AM
Yep he even called Gun and asked him if he was ready to get started.

Dave

And what else would you do in CP told you your DC was going to be Gun?
I still buy into the Gun has compromising pictures stashed away.

Mr. Laz
12-17-2007, 11:42 AM
Why would he come here? San Diego is his if he wants it or for that matter several teams would drop their dead weight if he was interested
wow .. well if that's your attitude then we better just hire Gunther as HC and be done with it.

i mean seeing as KC is such a shit hole. :spock:

OnTheWarpath58
12-17-2007, 11:45 AM
I think we can all agree that he should be given free reign and not have to operate under the same ideologies as the previous regime.

But at the same time, I've seen him make mistakes that are inexcusable no matter who the personnel or staff is.

Very true.

I think his ideology of how to build a franchise are dead on.

I don't think Carl Peterson shares that "vision" to share from another thread.

Could he be successful rebuilding with CP out of the picture?

Absolutely, IMO.

But some of his gameday mistakes are inexcusable.

banyon
12-17-2007, 11:48 AM
Get someone that works with Polian or Pioli, those guys are by far the best GM's in the game. Not to mention from Polians time in Buffalo spawned several successful GM's that were his assistants.

Who would you want them to pick at coach?

Mecca
12-17-2007, 11:48 AM
Very true.

I think his ideology of how to build a franchise are dead on.

I don't think Carl Peterson shares that "vision" to share from another thread.

Could he be successful rebuilding with CP out of the picture?

Absolutely, IMO.

But some of his gameday mistakes are inexcusable.

I don't think he'd be overly successful because so far he's shown he's not a great drafter......at best his first day draft picks are 50/50. He also favors defense to offense, with personnel and coaching and in todays game with all of the rules changes it favors the elite offense/good defense teams. Not the elite defense/alright offense teams.

The best way I can put it is, I think if Herm had a team he'd want to be like it would be the Jaguars. For as many games as they win in the regular season and make the playoffs every year...does anyone think they'll get get past Indy and NE? They can't even beat out Indy for the division.

OnTheWarpath58
12-17-2007, 11:50 AM
wow .. well if that's your attitude then we better just hire Gunther as HC and be done with it.

i mean seeing as KC is such a shit hole. :spock:

C'mon Laz.....

People are living in a fantasy world if they think Cowher would choose to come here.

Some seem to think you can just throw a ridiculous amount of money at him and he'll come here just because he was here before. That's ridiculous.

He didn't leave one of the best franchises in the NFL to sit out 2 years and take over a reclamation project.

Cowher is a coach who's going to be looking for a team that is right on the cusp of a SB appearance/win.

The KC job is perfect for a young guy who has the smarts and motivation to rebuild this thing the right way. A guy who can build his resume.

Wile_E_Coyote
12-17-2007, 11:53 AM
wow .. well if that's your attitude then we better just hire Gunther as HC and be done with it.

i mean seeing as KC is such a shit hole. :spock:

Head coaches have to have big egos. But how many have rebuilt two teams & been successful at it? With San Diego setting there loaded with talent. Why not go for a bust in canton?

Dave Lane
12-17-2007, 11:55 AM
C'mon Laz.....

People are living in a fantasy world if they think Cowher would choose to come here.

Some seem to think you can just throw a ridiculous amount of money at him and he'll come here just because he was here before. That's ridiculous.

He didn't leave one of the best franchises in the NFL to sit out 2 years and take over a reclamation project.

Cowher is a coach who's going to be looking for a team that is right on the cusp of a SB appearance/win.

The KC job is perfect for a young guy who has the smarts and motivation to rebuild this thing the right way. A guy who can build his resume.


KC is perfect for a guy who wants to be in total charge (Assuming CP is executed along with Herm) and wants to show the world he can turn chicken shit into Chicken salad.

While taking over the Patriots might appeal to you, some people enjoy the challenge of building something that will knock off #1.

And the Chiefs are not that far away once the CP on down is replaced.

Dave

Mr. Arrowhead
12-17-2007, 11:58 AM
I think Herm should get one more year, just because i think we will have a lot more talent on this team next year. To be honest Bill Belichick couldnt have won with the talent we have this year.

dallaschiefsfan
12-17-2007, 12:10 PM
You know why the Colts win and why Dungy could never win in Tampa, Peyton Manning. You wanna play that the Chiefs are gonna get Manning? Also they have a GM that told Dungy he wasn't allowed to change the offense...

Also when Dungy in the past tried to pull typical Dungy moves Manning would overrule him. So until we get a QB with enough sack and enough stroke to tell the coach to suck it, we won't win.


This is the straight up truth. The idea that Herm would be more effective if he wasn't so held back...well...that's just crap. Dungy is the Herm model. He will always have to be controlled by a GM and given parameters. The only problem...Carl probably isn't the GM he needs and Croyle isn't Manning...as already noted.

Now...there's also the matter of game-day management w/ Herm vs. Dungy. Wait a minute...how many babysitters would that be for Herm?

Seriously...at some point, you just aren't a legit NFL coach. Great DC, though.

ChiefsCountry
12-17-2007, 12:54 PM
Cowher is going to Carolina.

Cochise
12-17-2007, 01:03 PM
This team sucks because our General Manager has neglected the roster since the Vermeil era. It doesn't suck because of Herm.

dallaschiefsfan
12-17-2007, 01:10 PM
This team sucks because our General Manager has neglected the roster since the Vermeil era. It doesn't suck because of Herm.

Uh...no. It sucks because of the GM, players AND Herm. Nobody gets a free pass on the suck-train.

Great coaches can coach mediocre talent into over-performing and can work around bad management decisions to a decent record. Our record indicates all facets are wheels off.

Lzen
12-17-2007, 01:19 PM
I don't even want Cowher here, honestly. He reeks of the Marty/Herm school. And he wouldn't have the super bowl ring either, except for the most poorly officiated game in super bowl history.

Even though the refs gave the SB to Pittsburgh, you have to give it up for the fact that Cowher got the Steelers to the SB twice, something that will never happen under Herm.

alanm
12-17-2007, 01:24 PM
Could someone give me ONE LEGITIMATE REASON why Bill Cowher would take a job here?

He left one of the best jobs in the NFL, fresh off a SB win, to be closer to his family.

One reason?
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Cochise
12-17-2007, 01:27 PM
Even though the refs gave the SB to Pittsburgh, you have to give it up for the fact that Cowher got the Steelers to the SB twice, something that will never happen under Herm.

There have been few years in that span where we've had the talent they have.

The Steeler teams usually have balance, which is what we have never had in Carl's entire tenure.

Cowher is an average head coach, just like Herm is. With superior talent they have a chance. Without talent they have no chance.

HemiEd
12-17-2007, 01:33 PM
**** Herm! He shouldn't have gotten the two years he already has. Chris Terry can help him with his move. See ya!

Brock
12-17-2007, 01:39 PM
You know why the Colts win and why Dungy could never win in Tampa, Peyton Manning. You wanna play that the Chiefs are gonna get Manning? Also they have a GM that told Dungy he wasn't allowed to change the offense...

Also when Dungy in the past tried to pull typical Dungy moves Manning would overrule him. So until we get a QB with enough sack and enough stroke to tell the coach to suck it, we won't win.

Pretty much nothing in this post is true.

Chiefnj2
12-17-2007, 02:02 PM
Pretty much nothing in this post is true.
Manning runs that offense. Manning has also overruled Dungy before. In fact, I think it happened in a KC game where Dungy called a FG and Manning ordered them off the field.

|Zach|
12-17-2007, 02:12 PM
What??? Please show me the proof of that.

Link?
Don't hold you breath. He doesn't have it.

Brock
12-17-2007, 02:14 PM
Manning runs that offense. Manning has also overruled Dungy before. In fact, I think it happened in a KC game where Dungy called a FG and Manning ordered them off the field.

If Manning "overruled" Dungy, it's because Dungy allowed him to. The idea that Dungy doesn't run that team exactly the way he wants to is disrespectful and dumb. The idea that a GM told Dungy "hands off the offense" is equally dumb. Like Dungy is so stupid that he'd handcuff Peyton Manning. :rolleyes:

OnTheWarpath58
12-17-2007, 02:45 PM
KC is perfect for a guy who wants to be in total charge (Assuming CP is executed along with Herm) and wants to show the world he can turn chicken shit into Chicken salad.

While taking over the Patriots might appeal to you, some people enjoy the challenge of building something that will knock off #1.

And the Chiefs are not that far away once the CP on down is replaced.

Dave

I agree, Dave. Some coaches would embrace the challenges of rebuilding a franchise.

I just don't think Cowher is one of them.

I just think this job appeals more to a younger guy, with the motivation, energy and desire to BUILD a winner. Something he can put on his resume and be known for.

Fish
12-17-2007, 02:48 PM
If Manning "overruled" Dungy, it's because Dungy allowed him to. The idea that Dungy doesn't run that team exactly the way he wants to is disrespectful and dumb. The idea that a GM told Dungy "hands off the offense" is equally dumb. Like Dungy is so stupid that he'd handcuff Peyton Manning. :rolleyes:

Yeah... this line of thinking is just beyond dumb. Somebody somewhere started this whole "Peyton Manning is the OC of the Colts, and not even the head coach tells him what to run". And it's been snowballing ever since.

Mecca
12-17-2007, 03:24 PM
When he was hired it was part of the job, that he wasn't to mess with the offense just the defense....he also doesn't have a ton of say in players..

You really think Dungy is calling stuff over Polian...I don't think Dungy would have taken Anthony Gonzalez first if it was his call.

RustShack
12-17-2007, 03:25 PM
Herm needs more time because he has a lot of bags to pack...

Flustrated
12-17-2007, 03:28 PM
Personally, I'm enjoying this year's Christmas more than most. I have no false hope built up inside. No anxiety. I havn't slapped the shit out of my wife since we were .500% :redface:

Seriously, lets keep Hermy, Carl, and the rest of the losers and see how BAD it can actually get. Wouldn't you all rather have years like this than go 8-8?

So, I say keep the Stooges in the front office for a few more years. We are so far away from a championship it wont matter anyway.

RustShack
12-17-2007, 03:29 PM
Or we bring in new people to build a good team, which ever one.

smittysbar
12-17-2007, 03:52 PM
Cowher is basically a pipe dream.....

I'd wanna talk to whoever is Pioli's right hand man in NE is and see if we could hire him. That person has been in a successful organization and sees how things are done properly. Then go from there.

Best Idea I have heard yet. People wanting to stick with Herm another year have truly been sucked into CP's BS that he shoves down the throats of the Chief faithful. He has not done shit yet and won't do shit in the future, so why waist anymore time on this joker that should not have been brought here in the first place? It is officially time for a house cleaning! Clark needs to do this, for the team, and the fans. Chief fans have been very faithful over the years, and it is now obvious that we are fed up as a whole.

I also wonder, if Marty wanted to come in as GM, after the curb kicking (if it happens) would we be happy with this? I think I would. He has learned that it is a different day and age in the NFL. He wants to be a GM, and he liked KC. Wonder if him and the Hunts have hard feelings?

All in all I think it will be interesting after the season, to see what Clark will do......

FAX
12-17-2007, 04:04 PM
Herm needs additional time to come up with some more crazy-ass sh*t to say, Mr. Dave Lane. Personally, I look forward to him throwing everybody on the team beneath the bus this off-season.

"Get under it!!".

FAX

DaneMcCloud
12-17-2007, 04:06 PM
After seeing my worst fears come true in Herm with the Jetsification of the Chiefs (a top 5 draft pick) and the destruction of a team. I wonder in this microwave world of instant gratification how is it we cling to the notion 2 years doesn't set a trend especially giving his previous body of work. So I thought well surely 2 years must be handed out like candy in the past to any head coach and then it occurred to me to check the Chiefs history to confirm this.

Chiefs Head Coaches with shortest tenures:

Tom Bettis - 1977
Frank Gansz - 1987-1988
Gunther Cunningham - 1999-2000
Paul Wiggin - 1975-1977
John Mackovic - 1983-1986

Thats half of the Chiefs Head Coaches in the history of this team. 3 of them are 2 years or less. So in the present world why not cut ties with Herm. Actually excluding Herm 33% of Chiefs coaches have had a tenure of 2 years or less. And yes I know Bettis is a bad choice. Still 2 years of Herm like performance has cost coaches their jobs in the past.

Dave

Vermiel was 14-18 his first 2 years
Herm will like be 13-19 his first 2 years

There is only ONE man on the Chiefs offensive line that would start for ANY other team in the NFL: Brian Waters.

Herm was left with a perennial #32 ranked defense and an aging offense that saw TWO HOF lineman retire in two consecutive years.

Herm has begun to stock the roster with talented *football players*, most of which have been solid. With ten picks in the 2008 draft and plenty of serviceable players available via free-agency, this team should compete for a playoff spot in 2008.

Herm should be given at least three years to overhaul the roster.

Then, it's on him to produce. If he doesn't, fire him.

Count Alex's Wins
12-17-2007, 04:07 PM
I'm on the fence on this issue. What coach would have had this collection of inept talent further along at this point? We know Carl has meddled with the situation and delayed a true "rebuild," which is what Herm wanted from the start.

I don't think Herm is taking us anywhere, but he deserves the chance to build his own team. I guess what I'm trying to say is, give him as much rope to hang himself with as possible. If we're this bad in 2009, pull the plug.

Fish
12-17-2007, 04:09 PM
Fire Clark Hunt!! It's the only way!!

dirk digler
12-17-2007, 04:10 PM
Vermiel was 14-18 his first 2 years
Herm will like be 13-19 his first 2 years

There is only ONE man on the Chiefs offensive line that would start for ANY other team in the NFL: Brian Waters.

Herm was left with a perennial #32 ranked defense and an aging offense that saw TWO HOF lineman retire in two consecutive years.

Herm has begun to stock the roster with talented *football players*, most of which have been solid. With ten picks in the 2008 draft and plenty of serviceable players available via free-agency, this team should compete for a playoff spot in 2008.

Herm should be given at least three years to overhaul the roster.

Then, it's on him to produce. If he doesn't, fire him.

The problem I have is that Herm and CP should have started the rebuilding last off season instead of starting in Week 11. We just wasted a year for nothing IMO.

DaneMcCloud
12-17-2007, 04:20 PM
The problem I have is that Herm and CP should have started the rebuilding last off season instead of starting in Week 11. We just wasted a year for nothing IMO.

The "rebuild" did begin this offseason. They brought in a ton of rookie free agents (Patterson, Brackenridge, Sippio, etc.) and have been playing many young players from day one (Tank, Turk, Bowe, etc.). The draft choices have been solid (if not spectacular: Bowe & Smith, especially). Croyle will be a solid NFL QB for years.

The Chiefs simply COULD NOT overhaul the entire team in one off-season. It's simply not possible. And there's no way this team should have started Croyle from day one because of the very offensive offensive line.

Carl was smart not to call it a rebuild. Since he has, attendance has been down and people are calling for his and Herm's head on a daily basis.

CP knows his fan-base all too well. Hence 19 years of mediocrity. Overall, Chiefs fans can't stomach a rebuild.

But it's too late. It has begun.

dallaschiefsfan
12-17-2007, 04:43 PM
I don't think Herm is taking us anywhere, but he deserves the chance to build his own team. I guess what I'm trying to say is, give him as much rope to hang himself with as possible. If we're this bad in 2009, pull the plug.


Herm "deserves" nothing. He serves at the pleasure of CP...and CP serves at the pleasure of Clark. If Clark pulls the plug on CP, he owes Herm ZERO.

smittysbar
12-17-2007, 04:47 PM
The "rebuild" did begin this offseason. They brought in a ton of rookie free agents (Patterson, Brackenridge, Sippio, etc.) and have been playing many young players from day one (Tank, Turk, Bowe, etc.). The draft choices have been solid (if not spectacular: Bowe & Smith, especially). Croyle will be a solid NFL QB for years.

The Chiefs simply COULD NOT overhaul the entire team in one off-season. It's simply not possible. And there's no way this team should have started Croyle from day one because of the very offensive offensive line.

Carl was smart not to call it a rebuild. Since he has, attendance has been down and people are calling for his and Herm's head on a daily basis.

CP knows his fan-base all too well. Hence 19 years of mediocrity. Overall, Chiefs fans can't stomach a rebuild.

But it's too late. It has begun.

Rebuilding would have had Croyle starting this year. We have basically wasted this year. Patterson, Brackenridge, are okay but i don't think the team is thinking these guys will be starters. Sippio, well he got a shot because of an injury, but no he is not going to be a starter. Turk and Tank have not gotten to play much at all, until this week, probably because of injury to Boone. And neither have stepped up yet, I think they have even been inactive a few games. The offensive line was better at the beginning of the year, than it was two weeks ago when D mac was out, and Terry was lost in space. Attendance is down for several reasons, mostly because people are fed up.

KC fans can handle a rebuild, but it should have started at the beginning of the year and not week 11. And the fact that Herm has thrown every one from the old coaches to the team to the fans under the bus has escalated everything also.

Let's just all face the obvious, Herm is a JOKE!!!!!

Zouk
12-17-2007, 04:49 PM
I don't think Herm is taking us anywhere, but he deserves the chance to build his own team. I guess what I'm trying to say is, give him as much rope to hang himself with as possible. If we're this bad in 2009, pull the plug.

Let the record note that you're willing to give Herm more time than even I - the uber-Herm defender - is willing to give him. If we're this bad in 2008, he will and should be fired.

DaneMcCloud
12-17-2007, 05:11 PM
Rebuilding would have had Croyle starting this year. We have basically wasted this year. Patterson, Brackenridge, are okay but i don't think the team is thinking these guys will be starters. Sippio, well he got a shot because of an injury, but no he is not going to be a starter. Turk and Tank have not gotten to play much at all, until this week, probably because of injury to Boone. And neither have stepped up yet, I think they have even been inactive a few games. The offensive line was better at the beginning of the year, than it was two weeks ago when D mac was out, and Terry was lost in space. Attendance is down for several reasons, mostly because people are fed up.

KC fans can handle a rebuild, but it should have started at the beginning of the year and not week 11. And the fact that Herm has thrown every one from the old coaches to the team to the fans under the bus has escalated everything also.

Brodie Croyle wasn't ready to start the season. Plain and simple. And even if he had, he'd most certainly be out for the season by now due to injury. This offensive line is awful. Even if they DID look better at the beginning of the season (and that's debatable), that's due to the age of the lineman. They're old. They're worn out.

Expecting second and third round DT rookies to be ready for the rigors of a 16 game season is ludicrous. And apparently you haven't been watching much because Tank's played in 13 games and Turk has played in 14 games.

Halfcan
12-17-2007, 05:20 PM
He's just frankly the wrong guy, his idea of wanting to draft, get young and build the team is right in theory but his idea of how to do it and how to play is wrong.

He can't draft talent either. Whiffing on a 2nd and third for the Tank N Turk Combo-will kill us for years.

jettio
12-17-2007, 05:44 PM
The Chiefs ought to hire some real kick-*ss GM and Head Coach whose names carry so much weight that the 31 other teams will just give up and let the Chiefs win the Super Bowl.

Wouldn't that be Neat-O!!!!!

cdcox
12-17-2007, 05:53 PM
In my opinion, Herm was never the guy. I disagree with his base philosophy. It is not a matter of if we replace him but when.

I can think of two reasons to keep Herm on board for 1 more year.

1. If we fire him after two years, some good coaching candidates might get the idea that we don't have the patience to build. Giving Herm 3 years sends a message to the candidates that they will get 3 years. The perception of good support from the franchise is key to attractng the best candidates.

2. Another year of roster flushing and drafting will give the new guy a better base on which to build. Replacing the old guys (4OL, Kennison, Donnie Edwards, Surtain, and Law) is going to take some time. Let part of that replacement cycle happen under the lame duck, so that the new guy has a better chance of having a contender after 3 years.

On the other hand, there are several good reasons to make the change now.

1. He might Martyball himself to an 8-8 record or better next year by some miracle. I'd still want to replace him even if he made the playoffs. However, if he showed strong improvement it would be more difficult from a PR standpoint to replace him. Now you could easily justify it.

2. It would be better to have the new man's input in the draft and FA this season, so that person can get their style of players.

3. If Croyle is the QBOTF, it would be far, far better for him to develop under the new offensive-minded regime.

DaneMcCloud
12-17-2007, 05:54 PM
He can't draft talent either. Whiffing on a 2nd and third for the Tank N Turk Combo-will kill us for years.

Whiffing? So you've determined after 14 games that neither of these guys will be solid NFL defensive lineman? Seriously?

WHIFFING is Eddie Freeman, Eric Downing, Junior Siavii and Ryan Sims. Guys who have NO place on an NFL roster.

Tank and Turk gained valuable playing time and learning experience. Claiming that they're "busts" after 14 games is tenuous at best.

Halfcan
12-17-2007, 05:58 PM
Vermiel was 14-18 his first 2 years
Herm will like be 13-19 his first 2 years

There is only ONE man on the Chiefs offensive line that would start for ANY other team in the NFL: Brian Waters.

Herm was left with a perennial #32 ranked defense and an aging offense that saw TWO HOF lineman retire in two consecutive years.

Herm has begun to stock the roster with talented *football players*, most of which have been solid. With ten picks in the 2008 draft and plenty of serviceable players available via free-agency, this team should compete for a playoff spot in 2008.

Herm should be given at least three years to overhaul the roster.

Then, it's on him to produce. If he doesn't, fire him.

ROFL Bob Gretz is that You?? Where are these talented players you speak of-oh yeah

Tank N Turk the Ultimate QB destroyers!!!!

Halfcan
12-17-2007, 06:02 PM
Whiffing? So you've determined after 14 games that neither of these guys will be solid NFL defensive lineman? Seriously?

WHIFFING is Eddie Freeman, Eric Downing, Junior Siavii and Ryan Sims. Guys who have NO place on an NFL roster.

Tank and Turk gained valuable playing time and learning experience. Claiming that they're "busts" after 14 games is tenuous at best.

Well they didn't show much in Camp, Preseason or after 14 games- I mean they have what 4 tackles between them???

How many tackles did Jared have his first year? You either have the talent or you don't. Many thought they were Bust picks to start-and unfortunately they look like Ryan Simms wanna be's so far.

But they are good at slap fighting.

DaneMcCloud
12-17-2007, 06:13 PM
ROFL Bob Gretz is that You?? Where are these talented players you speak of-oh yeah

Tank N Turk the Ultimate QB destroyers!!!!

Come on, Dude.

Hali
Pollard
Page
Smith
Croyle
Bowe

All of those guys are solid football players that will be in the league for years to come. They all may not be superstars, but great football teams have a solid core of good football teams a maybe one or two superstar players.

This team NEEDS good, solid football players. And they're finally starting to stockpile a few.

DaneMcCloud
12-17-2007, 06:19 PM
Well they didn't show much in Camp, Preseason or after 14 games- I mean they have what 4 tackles between them???

How many tackles did Jared have his first year? You either have the talent or you don't. Many thought they were Bust picks to start-and unfortunately they look like Ryan Simms wanna be's so far.

But they are good at slap fighting.

Tank Tyler has 8 tackles in 13 games, 5 solo.

Turk McBride has 10 tackes (7 solo) and 1 sack in 14 games.

Alfonso Boone was 20 tackles in 15 games and 1 sack.

Ron Edwards has 20 tackles in 15 games and 3 sacks.

So while their numbers aren't as high as the veterans, I don't know how many snaps each player has played. But IMO, they're doing "okay" and will only improve. It's not like either guy has hit his peak.

Halfcan
12-17-2007, 06:21 PM
Come on, Dude.

Hali
Pollard
Page
Smith
Croyle
Bowe

All of those guys are solid football players that will be in the league for years to come. They all may not be superstars, but great football teams have a solid core of good football teams a maybe one or two superstar players.

This team NEEDS good, solid football players. And they're finally starting to stockpile a few.

Out of how many picks? I really like Hali-could be an All pro-so I will give him that one. Bowe was a HUGE surprise as well.

DaneMcCloud
12-17-2007, 06:28 PM
Out of how many picks? I really like Hali-could be an All pro-so I will give him that one. Bowe was a HUGE surprise as well.

Why were Hali and Bowe "HUGE" surprises? Because Chiefs fans were so used to poor drafting in the previous 5 years under DV?

NFL teams expect their first round picks to contribute immediately, the second rounders by year two, third rounders by year three and second day players to provide depth down the road.

The Chiefs seem to have done well with their first round picks the past two years and have hit on some second day picks (Page & Smith, for example). Jeff Webb *may* be a solid contributor (not a superstar), and free agent Rudy Niswanger *may* be a solid right guard (if he can stay healthy).

Throw in Croyle and Page and I'd say the Chiefs have had pretty successful drafts the past two years. And it's likely that all of the players chosen will continue to improve.

smittysbar
12-17-2007, 06:28 PM
Hali has not had a good year.


Boone has not played 15 reg season games yet.

Page and Pollard, though I have not gave up on them, have not been great this year either.

3rd round Kicker Medlock - worked out great.

Though for some reason you think Turk and Tank have gained a lot of experience playing this year. They have not gotten to play a lot.

DaneMcCloud
12-17-2007, 06:33 PM
Hali has not had a good year.


Boone has not played 15 reg season games yet.

Page and Pollard, though I have not gave up on them, have not been great this year either.

3rd round Kicker Medlock - worked out great.

Though for some reason you think Turk and Tank have gained a lot of experience playing this year. They have not gotten to play a lot.

Medlock was a fifth round pick. You're going to bust ass on a fifth round pick? Ludicrous.

Hali has been hurt all year, yet his numbers are just slightly below his rookie campaign. He'll be fine next year, if not great.

Page and Pollard are playing like second year players. Solid, if not spectacular.

And if you think that Tank & Turk haven't played much this year, then you need to give them props for putting up half the numbers of the starters. What does that tell you?

Count Alex's Wins
12-17-2007, 06:35 PM
3rd round Kicker Medlock - worked out great.


It'd be nice if you actually knew what you were talking about. Medlock was drafted in the 5th round.

smittysbar
12-17-2007, 06:40 PM
It'd be nice if you actually knew what you were talking about. Medlock was drafted in the 5th round.

That's right my bad, I was thinking about Turk and Tank and put down the wrong thing but you got the point.

Good thing you never mess up :rolleyes:. But I guess that's easy to do when you jump around on most of what you say :p

Messier
12-17-2007, 06:42 PM
I notice a trend with the people bashing Herms picks, they seem to have nothing factual to base their bashing on. They use exaggerations or made up stats to make their iffy points.

DaneMcCloud
12-17-2007, 06:49 PM
I notice a trend with the people bashing Herms picks, they seem to have nothing factual to base their bashing on. They use exaggerations or made up stats to make their iffy points.

Especially considering that most mock drafts had Tank & Turk BOTH going in the second round (see walterfootball.com for one example) and most people were THRILLED to see the Chiefs grab Tank with a late third round pick during draft weekend.

So many unrealistic expectations. Sheesh.

smittysbar
12-17-2007, 06:52 PM
I notice a trend with the people bashing Herms picks, they seem to have nothing factual to base their bashing on. They use exaggerations or made up stats to make their iffy points.

I am not trying to bash his picks. I like some and don't like some. Like anyone else, or any coach's picks. But I am also not going to sugar coat what we have in some of these players. For instance, I was big on Pollard, so far it is not looking real good. On the other hand he has not gotten near the playing time that Page has, so I will not give up on him yet.

smittysbar
12-17-2007, 06:54 PM
Especially considering that most mock drafts had Tank & Turk BOTH going in the second round (see walterfootball.com for one example) and most people were THRILLED to see the Chiefs grab Tank with a late third round pick during draft weekend.

So many unrealistic expectations. Sheesh.

I was also stoked that we were able to get him in the 3rd. I really do hope that they work out for the team and are here for a long time. I guess time will tell.

FAX
12-17-2007, 06:58 PM
I notice a trend with the people bashing Herms picks, they seem to have nothing factual to base their bashing on. They use exaggerations or made up stats to make their iffy points.

I think it's more of a "backlash" response, Mr. Messier. You know, in reaction to all the posts regarding what a fabulous drafter person Herm is. For a while there, one would think that Herm invented college football, the draft, and could mind-meld with 1000 players simultaneously to determine their futures.

In fact, his drafts have been okay - but not spectacular by any means.

FAX

C-Mac
12-17-2007, 08:44 PM
I think Herm should get one more year, just because i think we will have a lot more talent on this team next year. To be honest Bill Belichick couldnt have won with the talent we have this year.

Ever wonder how this same lousy Oline somehow managed to block one of the top defensive lines last Sunday? They finally grew tired of being thrown under the bus and they played with some heart, desire and pride. A great coach will bring that out in his players every Sunday. There is talent on this team, there isnt enough heart,desire and belief on this team and that falls directly on the coach(s).

Dave Lane
12-17-2007, 08:44 PM
**** Herm! He shouldn't have gotten the two years he already has. Chris Terry can help him with his move. See ya!


ROFL

Dave

Count Alex's Wins
12-17-2007, 08:53 PM
Ever wonder how this same lousy Oline somehow managed to block one of the top defensive lines last Sunday? They finally grew tired of being thrown under the bus and they played with some heart, desire and pride. A great coach will bring that out in his players every Sunday. There is talent on this team, there isnt enough heart,desire and belief on this team and that falls directly on the coach(s).

Actually it had more to do with Haynesworth not playing much and Svitek showing he can actually play right tackle.

But blame the coaches for not realizing Svitek should be placed at RT all along. :)

Dave Lane
12-17-2007, 08:59 PM
I'm on the fence on this issue. What coach would have had this collection of inept talent further along at this point? We know Carl has meddled with the situation and delayed a true "rebuild," which is what Herm wanted from the start.

I don't think Herm is taking us anywhere, but he deserves the chance to build his own team. I guess what I'm trying to say is, give him as much rope to hang himself with as possible. If we're this bad in 2009, pull the plug.


All you have to ask is what would this offense be like if Saunders was still OC without Herm meddling? We have gone from a #2 ranking to number 31 in 1.8 years that may be a record. It also points to coaching and descending production from a coaching scheme.

And apart from Roaf and Shields its the same basic group Saunders was working with 2 years ago. And forget green he was good but "the system" helped him and Collins both.

Dave

Count Alex's Wins
12-17-2007, 09:04 PM
All you have to ask is what would this offense be like if Saunders was still OC without Herm meddling?

Saunders is going to be fired in Washington most likely.

Dave Lane
12-17-2007, 09:09 PM
Because he hasn't got to run his style offense for a very conservative coach.

Dave

DaneMcCloud
12-17-2007, 09:09 PM
All you have to ask is what would this offense be like if Saunders was still OC without Herm meddling? We have gone from a #2 ranking to number 31 in 1.8 years that may be a record. It also points to coaching and descending production from a coaching scheme.

And apart from Roaf and Shields its the same basic group Saunders was working with 2 years ago. And forget green he was good but "the system" helped him and Collins both.

Dave

Sorry, this is nonsense.

The Chiefs lost TWO hall of fame offensive lineman in consecutive years. TWO. And you expect that the Chiefs were going to continue producing their offensive numbers? Especially when DV was chasing after any DT in 5 drafts instead of drafting the BAA.

Add to the fact that Waters is 30, Weigman is 34 and Welbourne is in his thirties. They're ALL over 30! That is HUGE!

And if Saunders could do much with far less talent, why isn't he producing the same numbers in Washington, where they CLEARLY have had better offensive players across the board for the past two years? Why aren't they in the top 5?

Dave Lane
12-17-2007, 09:10 PM
Gibbs still want to run the counter-trey

Dave Lane
12-17-2007, 09:11 PM
Sorry, this is nonsense.

The Chiefs lost TWO hall of fame offensive lineman in consecutive years. TWO. And you expect that the Chiefs were going to continue producing their offensive numbers? Especially when DV was chasing after any DT in 5 drafts instead of drafting the BAA.

Add to the fact that Waters is 30, Weigman is 34 and Welbourne is in his thirties. They're ALL over 30! That is HUGE!

And if Saunders could do much with far less talent, why isn't he producing the same numbers in Washington, where they CLEARLY have had better offensive players across the board for the past two years? Why aren't they in the top 5?


Put down the crack pipe dude. DC has a hideous offense and the players are pitiful.

Dave

Count Alex's Wins
12-17-2007, 09:12 PM
Because he hasn't got to run his style offense for a very conservative coach.

Dave

LOL...you do realize that Joe Gibbs was coordinating the Coryell offense back in San Diego?

Saunders is overrated. He's about as good as the talent he has to work with. No more, no less.

Count Alex's Wins
12-17-2007, 09:13 PM
Put down the crack pipe dude. DC has a hideous offense and the players are pitiful.

Dave

The Redskins have only allowed 24 sacks this year.

Yeah, that line SUCKS. :rolleyes:

dtebbe
12-17-2007, 09:17 PM
Because he's a black coach and we don't want Jessie Jackson in KC? :shrug:

DT

Dave Lane
12-17-2007, 09:24 PM
I think it's more of a "backlash" response, Mr. Messier. You know, in reaction to all the posts regarding what a fabulous drafter person Herm is. For a while there, one would think that Herm invented college football, the draft, and could mind-meld with 1000 players simultaneously to determine their futures.

In fact, his drafts have been okay - but not spectacular by any means.

FAX


Now thats funny right there!

Dave

Dave Lane
12-17-2007, 09:25 PM
The Redskins have only allowed 24 sacks this year.

Yeah, that line SUCKS. :rolleyes:


I'm talking about the skill positions: QB, WR, RB, TE

a1na2
12-17-2007, 09:30 PM
Explain to me why we need to give Herm more time

Because we are stupid and can't see that he is a moron that cannot coach in the NFL but want to give him another year or two to make his plan come to fruition.

Count Alex's Wins
12-17-2007, 09:33 PM
I'm talking about the skill positions: QB, WR, RB, TE

Santana Moss
Antwaan Randle-El
Chris Cooley
Clinton Portis

Plenty of talent to be ranked better than 21st in scoring offense.

Saunders is about as overrated as they come in the NFL. The guy's entire resume as an OC is what he did in Kansas City when Roaf was here.

DaneMcCloud
12-17-2007, 09:35 PM
Put down the crack pipe dude. DC has a hideous offense and the players are pitiful.

Dave

WHAT???? W.T.F??

Santana Moss
Antwaan Randle El
Chris Samuels
Pete Kendall
Casey Rabach
Jason Fabini
Todd Wade
Chris Cooley
Todd Collins
Mike Sellars
Clinton Portis

Hideous? Are you out of your mind? How about additional players like Ladell Betts, Mark Brunell, James Thrash, Reche Caldwell and Keenan McCardell?

The Redskins have better receivers, a TE that's just a notch below TG, a solid offensive line, two very good running backs in Betts and Portis, and two very serviceable QB's (Campbell's out for the year).

Where's the "hideous" on that roster? "Hideous" is Kyle Turley, Will Svitek, Damien McIntosh and John Welbourne. Oh, and Samie Parker.

Messier
12-17-2007, 09:35 PM
Explain to me why we need to give Herm more time

Because we are stupid and can't see that he is a moron that cannot coach in the NFL but want to give him another year or two to make his plan come to fruition.


Thanks for your detailed, in depth analysis.

Fish
12-17-2007, 09:39 PM
Wow Dave..... wow.....

HemiEd
12-17-2007, 09:45 PM
ROFL Bob Gretz is that You?? Where are these talented players you speak of-oh yeah

Tank N Turk the Ultimate QB destroyers!!!!

Herm is a draft Genius!

a1na2
12-17-2007, 09:56 PM
Thanks for your detailed, in depth analysis.

Missed the point eh?

We do not need to give Hermit more time. He has proven over the past two years that all he can do is tear down an offense and only make some improvement in the defense.

I'm sure others can do as well on defense and also make some strides with the offense.

The biggest strides we can make on offense is to use the talent we have instead of being afraid to score points.

HemiEd
12-17-2007, 09:58 PM
Ever wonder how this same lousy Oline somehow managed to block one of the top defensive lines last Sunday? They finally grew tired of being thrown under the bus and they played with some heart, desire and pride. A great coach will bring that out in his players every Sunday. There is talent on this team, there isnt enough heart,desire and belief on this team and that falls directly on the coach(s).
I could not agree with you more, well said.

Easy 6
12-17-2007, 09:59 PM
I've been wrong before...but you can bet Herm will be kept for year 3 of his 4 year contract, yet that will be it without a Break-Through year...Clark is young, but considering his family upbringing...he's a Very smart guy, he knows Chiefs fans deserve & expect more.

IMO, Herm deserves that 3rd year...he thought NY was bad!!?, he walked into a BOILING FURNACE here...he will get 1 more year to fix it & then, if not, i to will ****Officialy**** Jump Ship.

Lets just get behind this Croyle kid, 2 picks Be Damned, nit-picking Be Damned...Brodie has the Right Stuff.

MahiMike
12-17-2007, 10:04 PM
Give us a realistic alternative to Herm

Elmer Fudd

Dave Lane
12-17-2007, 10:11 PM
WHAT???? W.T.F??

Antwaan Randle El
Chris Samuels


Those are the only players I'll give you the rest are basically Todd Collins bad, Like Synder likes to do there are names on the list of those that were good once but not now.

Dave

Messier
12-17-2007, 10:40 PM
Missed the point eh?

We do not need to give Hermit more time. He has proven over the past two years that all he can do is tear down an offense and only make some improvement in the defense.

I'm sure others can do as well on defense and also make some strides with the offense.

The biggest strides we can make on offense is to use the talent we have instead of being afraid to score points.


Oh I got your point. You hate Herm. You never liked Herm. herm is evil. EVILLLLLLL!!!!!

Coach
12-17-2007, 10:42 PM
Oh I got your point. You hate Herm. You never liked Herm. herm is evil. EVILLLLLLL!!!!!

Not evil. Just a plain ol idiot with a half of a brain.

a1na2
12-17-2007, 10:45 PM
Oh I got your point. You hate Herm. You never liked Herm. herm is evil. EVILLLLLLL!!!!!

You are wrong, I don't hate Hermit. I am not appreciative of what he has done to my team. He could be evil, but it's what he did to the team.

Count Alex's Wins
12-17-2007, 10:47 PM
You are wrong, I don't hate Hermit. I am not appreciative of what he has done to my team. He could be evil, but it's what he did to the team.

And guess who wanted Herm to be the head coach?

DaneMcCloud
12-17-2007, 11:05 PM
Those are the only players I'll give you the rest are basically Todd Collins bad, Like Synder likes to do there are names on the list of those that were good once but not now.

Dave

Whatever. You CLEARLY don't know WTF you're talking about.

Chris Cooley is an elite TE/H Back. Clinton Portis and Ladell Betts are equal to or better than Johnson and Smith. The receiving core of Moss, Thrash & Randle El blow away Bowe, Parker and Webb.

And the O-line is far, far superior as a unit.

So why hasn't Saunders been able to turn them into an elite unit and what in the world makes you think that with THIS talent, the Chiefs would still be Top 5?

You're nuts.

Messier
12-17-2007, 11:07 PM
So the alternative to Hern, is, I assume, not a retread coach, you wouldn't want that, right? I guess we could call Dennis Green. Or a college coach, we're seeing how that doesn't work. Cower said he isn't coming back. So, a really good can't miss coordinator. Be sure to allow a good two more years of 5 wins while he gets his "guys" on the team. Come on. We're on a freight train that left the station. Herm's plan will either work or it won't, but he'll be given the chance, as he should.

DaneMcCloud
12-17-2007, 11:09 PM
Ever wonder how this same lousy Oline somehow managed to block one of the top defensive lines last Sunday? They finally grew tired of being thrown under the bus and they played with some heart, desire and pride. A great coach will bring that out in his players every Sunday. There is talent on this team, there isnt enough heart,desire and belief on this team and that falls directly on the coach(s).

Oh really?

How about the fact that the Chiefs moved Svitek to the right side of the line but more importantly, they CUT Chris Terry. They were playing for their JOBS.

Additionally, they didn't face the best defensive tackle in football, Albert Haynesworth. That would have made all the difference in the world.

These guys are OLD. OLD. OLD. There's no amount of coaching that will make them play at a higher level.

They'e DONE.

I could not agree with you more, well said.

Ed, you may be a nice guy but week after week, all you bring is hate.

And no insight or knowledge.

Mecca
12-17-2007, 11:20 PM
LOL.....well when you are breaking in a young QB, you aren't gonna be a top 5 offense, that's all that needs to be said for the Skins. You can have all the skill position players in the world Jason Campbell is/was a first year starter.

Also Chris Cooley ain't no elite TE, there are at least 5 better ones, if not more.

This Herm drafting shit is funny, he's decent at it. That doesn't make the drafts great because they are better than the awful shit they were before..."hey we got a starter in the first round in both Herms drafts" guess what.....you're suppose to you dumb ****.

Count Alex's Wins
12-17-2007, 11:26 PM
LOL.....well when you are breaking in a young QB, you aren't gonna be a top 5 offense


Top 5 is one thing. If Saunders was so great you'd think the Skins could be, oh, maybe top 15? They don't even approach it. And they haven't improved over last season, either.

DaneMcCloud
12-17-2007, 11:27 PM
LOL.....well when you are breaking in a young QB, you aren't gonna be a top 5 offense, that's all that needs to be said for the Skins. You can have all the skill position players in the world Jason Campbell is/was a first year starter.

Also Chris Cooley ain't no elite TE, there are at least 5 better ones, if not more.

This Herm drafting shit is funny, he's decent at it. That doesn't make the drafts great because they are better than the awful shit they were before..."hey we got a starter in the first round in both Herms drafts" guess what.....you're suppose to you dumb ****.

You REALLY don't know what you're talking about, do you?

Last year, the Redskins started Mark Brunell. Why weren't they an elite offense then?

Name the 5 TE's that are better than Cooley, then tell me he's not elite.

Gates
Witten
Gonzalez
Cooley
Winslow

These guys have the most catches in the NFL as tight ends. Cooley's got 7 TD's, 2 more than Gonzalez and Winslow and two less than Gates.

If he's not elite, I guess either is anyone outside of Gates.

smittysbar
12-17-2007, 11:35 PM
Gates
Gonzo
Heap
Witten
Clark
Winslow
Crumpler - although he has not had a QB this year

I would consider all of these TE's better

DaneMcCloud
12-17-2007, 11:37 PM
Gates
Gonzo
Heap
Witten
Clark
Winslow
Crumpler - although he has not had a QB this year

I would consider all of these TE's better

60 catches, 7 touchdowns. $30 million dollar contract.

He is an elite TE.

Mecca
12-17-2007, 11:39 PM
Yes because you know it's 100% stats......I'm not saying Chris Cooley sucks but he isn't Winslow out there or anything like that.

DaneMcCloud
12-17-2007, 11:43 PM
Yes because you know it's 100% stats......I'm not saying Chris Cooley sucks but he isn't Winslow out there or anything like that.

Just because he's not Winslow doesn't mean that he's not an elite tight end in the league.

There are more than 64 tight ends in the league and to say that Cooley isn't elite would be incorrect.

Mecca
12-17-2007, 11:47 PM
Ok elite is top 5 to me.......I'd immediately rate Gates, Winslow, Gonzalez and Witten ahead of him so that's 4..

Then after that it gets kind of muddled, Heap comes in, Cooley comes in, Dallas Clark comes in, Shockey comes in..

I think those top 4 separate themselves from the rest.

DaneMcCloud
12-17-2007, 11:53 PM
Ok elite is top 5 to me.......I'd immediately rate Gates, Winslow, Gonzalez and Witten ahead of him so that's 4..

Then after that it gets kind of muddled, Heap comes in, Cooley comes in, Dallas Clark comes in, Shockey comes in..

I think those top 4 separate themselves from the rest.

Cooley's got more touchdowns and more catches than Heap or Shockey and more catches than Clark.

That makes Cooley top 5 in 2007.

C-Mac
12-18-2007, 07:44 AM
Oh really?

How about the fact that the Chiefs moved Svitek to the right side of the line but more importantly, they CUT Chris Terry. They were playing for their JOBS.
Additionally, they didn't face the best defensive tackle in football, Albert Haynesworth. That would have made all the difference in the world.

These guys are OLD. OLD. OLD. There's no amount of coaching that will make them play at a higher level.

They'e DONE.

You validate what I'm trying to say, a great coach will have them playing for their jobs every week, playing with purpose. Marty did more in his first two years with less.

dallaschiefsfan
12-18-2007, 10:14 AM
I'm sure that some of you have already read this in the Star today...but we're on pace for the fewest points in history with the exception of the the 1982 strike-shortened season. For the Herm apologists:

I know that we lost Roaf...then Shields and Green diminished, etc...but you can't seriously tell me that it's reasonable in anyway to see a powerhouse of an offense brought down to this level within two years? When has this ever happened in the NFL?

I'll agree with some of you that the offense had to get younger and was bound to change in the post-Vermeil period...and that there are forces from without that you have no control over (age, retirement, etc.). But dear God...HOW in the world do you stoop to this level from where we were this quickly? Is there another NFL example of a team so decimated so quickly?

It just seems that Herm was bound and determined to hurry the process along for the irrational reason that it wasn't his style of football. I think Roaf, Green, et-al understood this. We can play the "what if" game all day...but I can't help but believe that things could have been much different had Saunders chosen (w/ Herm's request) to stay on as the OC and been left alone to run the offense.

So much of what's happened to this team just seems unnecessary and sad. It just seems that Herm has been so stubborn and prideful about doing "his thing" that whatever was left of Vermeil's team be damned.

C-Mac
12-18-2007, 10:41 AM
I'm sure that some of you have already read this in the Star today...but we're on pace for the fewest points in history with the exception of the the 1982 strike-shortened season. For the Herm apologists:

I know that we lost Roaf...then Shields and Green diminished, etc...but you can't seriously tell me that it's reasonable in anyway to see a powerhouse of an offense brought down to this level within two years? When has this ever happened in the NFL?

I'll agree with some of you that the offense had to get younger and was bound to change in the post-Vermeil period...and that there are forces from without that you have no control over (age, retirement, etc.). But dear God...HOW in the world do you stoop to this level from where we were this quickly? Is there another NFL example of a team so decimated so quickly?

It just seems that Herm was bound and determined to hurry the process along for the irrational reason that it wasn't his style of football. I think Roaf, Green, et-al understood this. We can play the "what if" game all day...but I can't help but believe that things could have been much different had Saunders chosen (w/ Herm's request) to stay on as the OC and been left alone to run the offense.

So much of what's happened to this team just seems unnecessary and sad. It just seems that Herm has been so stubborn and prideful about doing "his thing" that whatever was left of Vermeil's team be damned.

I have seen average coaches look great with great players and I have seen average players look great with a great coach, but I've never seen an average coach look great with average players. Something will have to give for the Chiefs to suceed anytime soon. I have not been a Herm basher but I have to admit that I have never seen a coach deflect blame to the players so easily.

HemiEd
12-18-2007, 10:45 AM
All you have to ask is what would this offense be like if Saunders was still OC without Herm meddling? We have gone from a #2 ranking to number 31 in 1.8 years that may be a record. It also points to coaching and descending production from a coaching scheme.

And apart from Roaf and Shields its the same basic group Saunders was working with 2 years ago. And forget green he was good but "the system" helped him and Collins both.

Dave

Yep, have you watched the Redskins offense the last two weeks? Collins has played both of the last two games. Very solid, made me long for days gone by. :drool:

HemiEd
12-18-2007, 10:49 AM
Ed, you may be a nice guy but week after week, all you bring is hate.

And no insight or knowledge.

I am smart enough to avoid pissing in the wind.

dallaschiefsfan
12-18-2007, 10:52 AM
Yep, have you watched the Redskins offense the last two weeks? Collins has played both of the last two games. Very solid, made me long for days gone by. :drool:

While two weeks isn't enough to build a case for Saunders (via Collins vs. Campbell), it will be interesting to watch for the rest of the season. For those that are trying to make a case for the Skins offense and against Saunders. Nobody is saying Saunders is a great OC...but he does run a particular system very well.

Having said that, regardless of the whole cast's talent level, does the Skins' offensive line have pulling/athletic guards and tackles or is it more of a traditional big-line? I've always contended that Saunders/Vermeil offense simply doesn't work without those pull/athletic guys...regardless of the rest of the cast.

DaneMcCloud
12-18-2007, 11:34 AM
Yep, have you watched the Redskins offense the last two weeks? Collins has played both of the last two games. Very solid, made me long for days gone by. :drool:

Todd Collins was 8 of 25 for 166 yards Sunday night.

You long for those days?

All right. :rolleyes:

Brock
12-18-2007, 11:40 AM
LOL @ people pining for Todd Collins. Hey, what's Elvis Grbac doing?

FAX
12-18-2007, 12:26 PM
Herm driving me insane at today's presser.

"I came from a family where my daddy tole me stuff and I always tell the players this; when you're going downtown and you're eating yogurt and you spill some yogurt on your shirt, you got to turn that shirt inside out 'cause you don't want to be goin' downtown with that yogurt on the outside, now. Not on that outside. So, I tell them turn that shirt inside out and get it right. Now you spill that yogurt on that shirt after you turned it inside out you got a problem now, 'cause right now the fans understand that we got a lot of guys with a lot of yogurt on their shirt."

FAX

Saleenman607
12-18-2007, 12:26 PM
Herm Edwards as a person is top notch. What he does for the kids in his hometown and the KC area reflect his vision to help people and their families. Absolutely AWESOME.

Now, as a head coach thats another story as most people feel at this point in his tenure. Anyone with half a sense of football knowledge and watch this team play on Sunday can see all manner of mistakes,problems, miscues, etc,etc..... this is reflective of the HC. From day one, we've seen it, hardknocks, preseason, reg season. How much more of these mistakes must we endure? How freakin' hard is it to teach tackling? Skip a "jacked-up" hit for espn!! Just tackle the guy!! KC fans have waited long enough! Empty the seats and send a clear message to this administration. We are TIRED of this shit. We deserve better. CLEAN HOUSE NOW

DaneMcCloud
12-18-2007, 04:00 PM
Also Chris Cooley ain't no elite TE, there are at least 5 better ones, if not more.

Chris Cooley is officially a Pro-Bowler.

But I guess he's not elite?

:rolleyes:

Easy 6
12-18-2007, 05:10 PM
Herm driving me insane at today's presser.

"I came from a family where my daddy tole me stuff and I always tell the players this; when you're going downtown and you're eating yogurt and you spill some yogurt on your shirt, you got to turn that shirt inside out 'cause you don't want to be goin' downtown with that yogurt on the outside, now. Not on that outside. So, I tell them turn that shirt inside out and get it right. Now you spill that yogurt on that shirt after you turned it inside out you got a problem now, 'cause right now the fans understand that we got a lot of guys with a lot of yogurt on their shirt."

FAX

You cant be serious, tell me this is another work from your ethereal & eclectic mind.

If true...wow...thats bad, thats something from a sports/comedy flic bad.

I hope he's making more sense in the lockerroom.

Mecca
12-18-2007, 05:29 PM
Chris Cooley is officially a Pro-Bowler.

But I guess he's not elite?

:rolleyes:

Conference........outside of Witten the other top TE's are in the AFC.

Simply Red
12-18-2007, 05:33 PM
don't care

DaneMcCloud
12-18-2007, 05:41 PM
Conference........outside of Witten the other top TE's are in the AFC.

Dude, you are so out of your element.

Dave Lane was incorrect in stating that Washington has NO talent on the offense. I stated not only do the Redskins have a more talented receiving core, equal to or better than running backs, better QB depth, and extremely superior offensive line (Samuels made the Pro Bowl today for the 5th time), I also stated that Cooley is an elite tight end.

Dave doesn't know WTF he's talking about in regards to the Redskins offensive talent level.

And apparently, you can't admit when you're wrong. You're always making ridiculous claims (Allen isn't any good, Hali sucks and other BS), you can't even admit it when faced with FACTS.

Mecca
12-18-2007, 05:43 PM
Dane can keep taking what I said and blowing it to a completely different level, it's amusing. But hell everyone else does it too.

DaneMcCloud
12-18-2007, 05:45 PM
Dane can keep taking what I said and blowing it to a completely different level, it's amusing. But hell everyone else does it too.

If that's your response, then apparently, everything you say here should be taken with a grain of salt.

You're not even man enough to admit when you're wrong. Why would anyone give you props if you were EVER to be correct?

Mecca
12-18-2007, 05:46 PM
If that's your response, then apparently, everything you say here should be taken with a grain of salt.

You're not even man enough to admit when you're wrong. Why would anyone give you props if you were EVER to be correct?

Coming from you, that is pure gold.

DaneMcCloud
12-18-2007, 05:47 PM
Coming from you, that is pure gold.


Thank you. I'm glad you feel that way. :rolleyes:

If, as you say, everyone else feels that way, shouldn't that tell you something?

Dave Lane
12-18-2007, 05:49 PM
HE takes it to a new level though. Actually I think that Dane may actually be Herm.

Dave

Brock
12-18-2007, 05:49 PM
All I ever have to point out is that Mecca thought Kawika Mitchell was going to get 30 million dollars. I don't know if that is "taking it to the next level" or not, but it SURE IS ****ING FUNNY.

DaneMcCloud
12-18-2007, 05:50 PM
HE takes it to a new level though. Actually I think that Dane may actually be Herm.

Dave

Yeah, I'm Herm.

Because YOU have no idea WTF you're talking about in regards to the Redskins talent level, I must be a shill for the Chiefs organization.

I thought you were smarter than that.

I may have been mistaken.

Mecca
12-18-2007, 05:51 PM
Shills for a organization that hasn't won a playoff game in nearly 20 years contribute to a greater problem.

Count Alex's Wins
12-18-2007, 05:52 PM
HE takes it to a new level though. Actually I think that Dane may actually be Herm.

Dave

Dave, Dane is right. Saunders has a solid level of talent in Washington. The Redskins should be ranked better than 21st in scoring offense.

Saunders = overrated

Mecca
12-18-2007, 05:54 PM
All I ever have to point out is that Mecca thought Kawika Mitchell was going to get 30 million dollars. I don't know if that is "taking it to the next level" or not, but it SURE IS ****ING FUNNY.

Hey you're right I was wrong on that, something tells me he thought he was going to get that seeing as what the Chiefs signed Harris for.

Of course though I'm always wrong and never right to people here. Doesn't matter what the truth may be.

Dave Lane
12-18-2007, 06:00 PM
Dave, Dane is right. Saunders has a solid level of talent in Washington. The Redskins should be ranked better than 21st in scoring offense.

Saunders = overrated


I could make all the excuses Dane makes for Herm for Saunders. Its not his style playersm he does have the players or coaches he wants, he needs more time. Cut him, cut Herm I'm fine with it. And Portis and all the other also rans at DC are not nearly the players you make them out to be. Like Brunell he is a shell of his former self even last year.

Dave

Count Alex's Wins
12-18-2007, 06:06 PM
I could make all the excuses Dane makes for Herm for Saunders. Its not his style playersm he does have the players or coaches he wants, he needs more time. e

Except that Saunders SPECIFICALLY REQUESTED those players.

You don't have a leg to stand on. Saunders has proven beyond a shadow of doubt he's no better than Gunther as far as coordinators go. He's only as good as the talent he has to work with - and perhaps not even that good.

Saunders should give half of his salary with the Redskins to Willie Roaf.

HemiEd
12-18-2007, 06:09 PM
Dave, Dane is right. Saunders has a solid level of talent in Washington. The Redskins should be ranked better than 21st in scoring offense.

Saunders = overrated

They actually have looked pretty damn good on offense since their QB of the future went down. I have watched their last two games in complete envy. Todd Collins has looked great and under control in that offense. The Chiefs let the wrong back up go, and I thought so at the time.

Mecca
12-18-2007, 06:09 PM
The people who hate Saunders enough to still rip him now are just as bad as everyone who rips/defends Herm constantly...

Saunders ain't even here anymore, our team sucks ass, who the **** cares about Al Saunders?

Coach
12-18-2007, 06:11 PM
Twenty-one Patriots players have scored touchdowns this season. Three teams -- Kansas City, San Francisco and Atlanta -- do not have 21 total touchdowns.

Mecca
12-18-2007, 06:12 PM
Twenty-one Patriots players have scored touchdowns this season. Three teams -- Kansas City, San Francisco and Atlanta -- do not have 21 total touchdowns.

Does Randy Moss still have more TD's than our entire team..

Count Alex's Wins
12-18-2007, 06:13 PM
I have watched their last two games in complete envy. Todd Collins has looked great and under control in that offense.

ROFL

Todd Collins was awesome in his last start. What'd he complete, 8 passes?

Coach
12-18-2007, 06:14 PM
Does Randy Moss still have more TD's than our entire team..

Yep. Randy Moss has 19 TD's.

DaneMcCloud
12-18-2007, 06:19 PM
I could make all the excuses Dane makes for Herm for Saunders. Its not his style playersm he does have the players or coaches he wants, he needs more time. Cut him, cut Herm I'm fine with it. And Portis and all the other also rans at DC are not nearly the players you make them out to be. Like Brunell he is a shell of his former self even last year.

Dave

No, you couldn't.

Washington is CLEARLY more talented on offense than the Chiefs. Yet, Saunders hasn't been able to make them an elite unit. Your assertion is that with the Chiefs CURRENT roster, they'd still be a Top 5 unit.

How is that possible?

Brunell may be a shell, but he was certainly better than Green or Huard last year and is better than Huard this year.

Your argument holds no weight.

DaneMcCloud
12-18-2007, 06:19 PM
Todd Collins has looked great and under control in that offense. The Chiefs let the wrong back up go, and I thought so at the time.

How does 8 of 25 "look great"?

Please advise.

Brock
12-18-2007, 06:21 PM
They actually have looked pretty damn good on offense since their QB of the future went down. I have watched their last two games in complete envy. Todd Collins has looked great and under control in that offense. The Chiefs let the wrong back up go, and I thought so at the time.

So if Collins had led this team to a 8-5 record, you'd be happy about it?

HemiEd
12-18-2007, 06:32 PM
ROFL

Todd Collins was awesome in his last start.

Did you watch the game? 153 yards rushing and 156 yards passing, that looks pretty good to me right now.

Coach
12-18-2007, 06:33 PM
I'd hazard an unscientific guess that in football, the coach can be responsible for up to a 10 percent swing in results: 10 percent more points scored under good coaching, 10 percent fewer under bad coaching. In a close game or a Super Bowl run, that 10 percent swing really matters.

Tribal Warfare
12-18-2007, 06:36 PM
It was always my opinion that a good HC can turn a team to a contender in 2 years, the 1st year is the remnants of the prior coach(usually a losing season). The 2nd year is that HC's team and if it regresses then that's the reflection on his coaching and scouting ability.

DaneMcCloud
12-18-2007, 06:37 PM
Did you watch the game? 153 yards rushing and 156 yards passing, that looks pretty good to me right now.

Ed, he was 8 for 25. Not even 50%. That's 32%!

You think that a 32% passer "looks pretty good"?

W.T.F.?

DaneMcCloud
12-18-2007, 06:39 PM
It was always my opinion that a good HC can turn a team to a contender in 2 years, the 1st year is the remnants of the prior coach(usually a losing season). The 2nd year is that HC's team and if it regresses then that's the reflection on his coaching and scouting ability.

I think three years is more the standard, but it also depends on the state of the personnel.

Considering that every starter with the exception of LJ was over the age of thirty to begin the 2007 season, ANY head coach would have to be given more time to rebuild.

HemiEd
12-18-2007, 06:51 PM
So if Collins had led this team to a 8-5 record, you'd be happy about it?

Oh hell yes, a lot happier than the pathetic display we have witnessed this year. See, I don't buy into the lack of talent BS. I think it is coaching. Herm has lowered my standards considerable.

Count Alex's Wins
12-18-2007, 07:01 PM
See, I don't buy into the lack of talent BS.

So how many points was our collection of offensive talent capable of producing this year?

DaneMcCloud
12-18-2007, 07:11 PM
See, I don't buy into the lack of talent BS. I think it is coaching. Herm has lowered my standards considerable.


You are officially, an idiot.

Turley, Terry, Welbourn, McIntosh nor Weigmann would not be starting for ANY other NFL team. Period. There is absolutely NO WAY that all of them should have been playing at all, albeit, together!

But I'm sure they're all just Pro-Bowlers with a different coach, right?

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

HemiEd
12-18-2007, 07:21 PM
So how many points was our collection of offensive talent capable of producing this year?

I have no idea, do you? You think they were performing at their capability? So miraculously, the Chiefs ended up with all the turds?

The one common denominator with this offensive decline, and recent defensive decline, is the coaching. The players don't buy it and it is nothing new.

So do you throw out all the players? Not usually.

Count Alex's Wins
12-18-2007, 07:23 PM
I have no idea, do you? You think they were performing at their capability? So miraculously, the Chiefs ended up with all the turds?


Not all of the players are turds. We can clearly see LJ, Kolby, Bowe, Tony, at times Croyle, and even Webb at times, are not turds.

But 3/5 of that o-line?

Turds.

DaneMcCloud
12-18-2007, 07:25 PM
I have no idea, do you? You think they were performing at their capability? So miraculously, the Chiefs ended up with all the turds?

That's usually what happens when you ignore your offensive line for 9 YEARS.

The Chiefs haven't drafted a FIRST DAY offensive lineman since 1999.

How could you expect the results to be any different?

HemiEd
12-18-2007, 07:27 PM
Not all of the players are turds. We can clearly see LJ, Kolby, Bowe, Tony, at times Croyle, and even Webb at times, are not turds.

But 3/5 of that o-line?

Turds.

Ok, not trying to have it both ways. Who assembled that group coming out of camp?

To what do you attribute the Defensive decline? Did the talent go to shit all of a sudden?

Mecca
12-18-2007, 07:28 PM
Not all of the players are turds. We can clearly see LJ, Kolby, Bowe, Tony, at times Croyle, and even Webb at times, are not turds.

But 3/5 of that o-line?

Turds.

The Chiefs are pretty untalented as a whole, at least compared to other teams.

We made LJ a turd by running him into the ground.

Count Alex's Wins
12-18-2007, 07:30 PM
Ok, not trying to have it both ways. Who assembled that group coming out of camp?

To what do you attribute the Defensive decline? Did the talent go to shit all of a sudden?

You know I've lost faith in Herm. But according to Nick, management convinced Herm that playing the status quo with this offensive line was acceptable before training camp. Herm went along with it. Maybe he was foolish for doing that.

I don't know why the defense has suddenly gone under. Probably because half of the players are quitting. That is a coaching problem, for sure. Again, you know I've lost faith in Herm and wish Gunther was shown the door.

But to say these linemen are talented...well, it's just flat out dumb.

FAX
12-18-2007, 07:36 PM
You know I've lost faith in Herm. But according to Nick, management convinced Herm that playing the status quo with this offensive line was acceptable before training camp. Herm went along with it. Maybe he was foolish for doing that.

I don't know why the defense has suddenly gone under. Probably because half of the players are quitting. That is a coaching problem, for sure. Again, you know I've lost faith in Herm and wish Gunther was shown the door.

But to say these linemen are talented...well, it's just flat out dumb.

In journalism, that's what you call one of those "understatement" things, isn't it?

FAX

HemiEd
12-18-2007, 07:50 PM
You know I've lost faith in Herm. But according to Nick, management convinced Herm that playing the status quo with this offensive line was acceptable before training camp. Herm went along with it. Maybe he was foolish for doing that.

I don't know why the defense has suddenly gone under. Probably because half of the players are quitting. That is a coaching problem, for sure. Again, you know I've lost faith in Herm and wish Gunther was shown the door.

But to say these linemen are talented...well, it's just flat out dumb.

Good explanation.
Who brought in Chris Terry? Herm had Turley last year and he sucked. Why would he bring him back? He must have thought they were good enough. He either made bad choices, or could not provide proper coaching IMO.

I think the players have lost faith in the guy and have quit. They are not good enough to make up for all the shortcomings under the Herm administration. I think a better HC would have a lot more success with the same guys.

Count Alex's Wins
12-18-2007, 08:00 PM
I think a better HC would have a lot more success with the same guys.

Yeah, maybe we could have gone 7-9 instead of 4-12.

HemiEd
12-18-2007, 08:28 PM
Yeah, maybe we could have gone 7-9 instead of 4-12.
That would be an improvement. So if that same coaching staff, that got 7-9 out of this group, was given more talent, what would they accomplish?
I just can't visualize Herm coaching the Chiefs to any success.

NUKED
12-18-2007, 08:29 PM
h

L.A. Chieffan
12-18-2007, 08:29 PM
nice

Fish
12-18-2007, 08:31 PM
Have you guys met Anette Dawn?

She's nice, but she can't stay long........

Chiefnj2
12-18-2007, 10:16 PM
You are officially, an idiot.

Turley, Terry, Welbourn, McIntosh nor Weigmann would not be starting for ANY other NFL team. Period. There is absolutely NO WAY that all of them should have been playing at all, albeit, together!

But I'm sure they're all just Pro-Bowlers with a different coach, right?

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Except McIntosh was a starter with the Dolphins and Weigman was playing at a high level two years ago. Turley, Terry and Welbourn wouldn't be playing anywhere else except for the dumb ass coach and GM that gave them a starting spot in KC. Fielding a group of JV players isn't exactly a ringing endorsement of the head coaches prowess for finding talent.

dallaschiefsfan
12-18-2007, 10:18 PM
Yeah, maybe we could have gone 7-9 instead of 4-12.

Yeah...and under what form of reality is that NOT better? If another coach could get this exact team to 7-9, then Herm isn't getting the most out of this team...which means he's a problem.

dallaschiefsfan
12-18-2007, 10:23 PM
I think three years is more the standard, but it also depends on the state of the personnel.

While you could be partially right about three years, the thinking is flawed in regard to Herm. I can't think of an example of a successful coach that was given three years...AND finally turned it around in year three WITHOUT finishing strong and improving dramatically at the end of season 2.

FAX
12-18-2007, 10:26 PM
Yeah...and under what form of reality is that NOT better? If another coach could get this exact team to 7-9, then Herm isn't getting the most out of this team...which means he's a problem.

I wonder if you guys have noticed the funny direction Herm's been spinning this over the last couple of weeks. Basically, he's saying that, as far back as camp, the coaches thought this disaster could potentially happen. He's said that, if "things" had turned out one way they had predicted, we would have been a playoff team again. But, if "things" turned out the other way they had forecast, we would suck (you know, like we do and all).

This is amazing spin to me. I think that what Herm's trying to get across is the idea that he is so smart that he figured this butt hump was a possibility from the beginning which makes him the ultimate football genius and mind melder supreme. Still, no one in the KC media is asking him, if he knew this was a possibility, why didn't he do something to prevent it?

FAX

Mecca
12-18-2007, 10:29 PM
There wasn't really a whole lot you could do.....

The team wasn't that talented last year and more or less got lucky. You only have so many players, coaching is a problem but this team lacks talent....

Even if they had awesome drafts the last 2 years this team would still suck...unless you wanted to sign 30 FA's and spend huge money and then be in this spot again in 3 years.

FAX
12-18-2007, 10:31 PM
I can think of no enterprise of any kind run by any person with any sense whatsoever that would tolerate a prediction of potential full meltdown and take no action to prevent it.

FAX

Mecca
12-18-2007, 10:33 PM
I can think of no enterprise of any kind run by any person with any sense whatsoever that would tolerate a prediction of potential full meltdown and take no action to prevent it.

FAX

Ok what do you want to be done? Even if the best coach and personnel guy in the world had taken this job...the team was and still is old as hell, you can only do so much...

I still think some fans lack this understanding, when you get in this spot you will have a couple really bad years. No one competes while rebuilding.

I think Herms idea in theory is right, I just don't think he's the right guy to do it. You can have the right idea all you want still doesn't mean you'll get it right.

Count Alex's Wins
12-18-2007, 10:34 PM
Yeah...and under what form of reality is that NOT better? If another coach could get this exact team to 7-9, then Herm isn't getting the most out of this team...which means he's a problem.

LOL

Didn't we just get done bitching about the Chiefs having a mediocre record?

Mecca
12-18-2007, 10:36 PM
LOL

Didn't we just get done bitching about the Chiefs having a mediocre record?

Some people feel better about themselves and the team when they go 7-9 but are in "contention" the whole year. I hate that shit, I don't wanna sneak in the playoffs and get pelted.

You know what the worst thing that happened to this franchise is? The Steelers a couple years ago that actually won the bowl as a 6 seed....now the Chiefs hold onto it like they can do it even though it's an extreme long shot.

dallaschiefsfan
12-18-2007, 10:38 PM
LOL

Didn't we just get done bitching about the Chiefs having a mediocre record?

who's "we"? If the talent is a 7-9 team...then a solid coach gets them there. A bad coach ensures they underperform. A great coach squeezes them to 8-8 or 9-7.

FAX
12-18-2007, 10:41 PM
Ok what do you want to be done? Even if the best coach and personnel guy in the world had taken this job...the team was and still is old as hell, you can only do so much...

I still think some fans lack this understanding, when you get in this spot you will have a couple really bad years. No one competes while rebuilding.

I think Herms idea in theory is right, I just don't think he's the right guy to do it. You can have the right idea all you want still doesn't mean you'll get it right.

I know the point was delicate, Mr. Mecca. Perhaps too much so. Let me try again.

Let's say you're a tour guide and you don't get paid until the tour is over. So you take your group downtown to see the fancy buildings. Then, as you're discussing the finer points of neo-classical architecture, you notice that one of the buildings is collapsing and about to fall on your customers. Realizing that if it does so, your money will be buried under 5000 tons of brick and steel and you'll be spending the night giving statements at the police station and picking body parts off your suit.

Do you take an action? Even more to the point, do you come out the next day and say ... you know, we knew all along that was a possibility and decided to let them stand there anyhow.

FAX

Mecca
12-18-2007, 10:41 PM
That team....doesn't have 7-9 talent......it has 4-12 5-11 talent.

Count Alex's Wins
12-18-2007, 10:42 PM
who's "we"? If the talent is a 7-9 team...then a solid coach gets them there. A bad coach ensures they underperform. A great coach squeezes them to 8-8 or 9-7.

It's irrelevant, anyway. This team doesn't have the talent to win 7 games. They are what they are.

Mecca
12-18-2007, 10:43 PM
I know the point was delicate, Mr. Mecca. Perhaps too much so. Let me try again.

Let's say you're a tour guide and you don't get paid until the tour is over. So you take your group downtown to see the fancy buildings. Then, as you're discussing the finer points of neo-classical architecture, you notice that one of the buildings is collapsing and about to fall on your customers. Realizing that if it does so, your money will be buried under 5000 tons of brick and steel and you'll be spending the night giving statements at the police station and picking body parts off your suit.

Do you take an action? Even more to the point, do you come out the next day and say ... you know, we knew all along that was a possibility and decided to let them stand there anyhow.

FAX

Like I said though...what do you expect them to do? Numerous teams go into years fully knowing they may be bad that year and maybe even the next couple of years.

dallaschiefsfan
12-18-2007, 10:43 PM
[QUOTE=Mecca]Some people feel better about themselves and the team when they go 7-9 but are in "contention" the whole year. I hate that shit, I don't wanna sneak in the playoffs and get pelted.

You know what the worst thing that happened to this franchise is? The Steelers a couple years ago that actually won the bowl as a 6 seed....now the Chiefs hold onto it like they can do it even though it's an extreme long shot.[/QUOTED]

While I might agree with your larger point...this thread is about why Herm doesn't deserve another year. If this team's talent could yield a 7-9 record (regardless of whether that medicore sh** pisses you off or not), than a coach that can't get it there should be canned.

Mecca
12-18-2007, 10:45 PM
I don't think Herm is a very good coach either, but at the same time I don't think this team would be any good even with a great coach.

Coach
12-18-2007, 10:48 PM
Ok what do you want to be done? Even if the best coach and personnel guy in the world had taken this job...the team was and still is old as hell, you can only do so much...

I still think some fans lack this understanding, when you get in this spot you will have a couple really bad years. No one competes while rebuilding.

I think Herms idea in theory is right, I just don't think he's the right guy to do it. You can have the right idea all you want still doesn't mean you'll get it right.

If I took this job, and if I'm spewing that I am wanting to do a rebuilding mode, then I damn well better do it.

And rebuilding isn't exactly having all of your 30 year old guys as your starting offensive linemen, along with a 34 year old career back-up Caption Checkdown and his wobbly duck. I should also point out that for whatever reason, Herm had Holmes over Kolby.

Sorry, his theory isn't right, especially when I just stated the obvious.

dallaschiefsfan
12-18-2007, 10:49 PM
I don't think Herm is a very good coach either, but at the same time I don't think this team would be any good even with a great coach.

Well...on the former point we agree...on the latter, we disagree. I don't think the talent on this team is close to championship level at all...but I don't believe their talent should yield a 4-12 record...especially in this division.

Mecca
12-18-2007, 10:51 PM
If I took this job, and if I'm spewing that I am wanting to do a rebuilding mode, then I damn well better do it.

And rebuilding isn't exactly having all of your 30 year old guys as your starting offensive linemen, along with a 34 year old career back-up Caption Checkdown and his wobbly duck. I should also point out that for whatever reason, Herm had Holmes over Kolby.

Sorry, his theory isn't right, especially when I just stated the obvious.

Well he's dealing with Carl Peterson who doesn't want to rebuild at all.....this team tried to do a halfass rebuild because Peterson doesn't want a full one...

And this is what we got....

Coach
12-18-2007, 10:52 PM
I don't think Herm is a very good coach either, but at the same time I don't think this team would be any good even with a great coach.

Disagree. Buffalo was predicted to finish 4th in their conference, but Juaron did a hell of a job there, despite with the QB issues.

I can think of at least 3 games that the Chiefs COULD have won the game, have it not been for piss-poor coaching.

The Broncos game @ Arrowhead. Jesus, getting whipped by their JV squad was a piss-poor preperation by the coaching staff.

The Colts game @ Indy. Yes, I know the Colts weren't 100% in all areas, and we caught them when Manning was struggling terribly. But it was 10-10 and the game was there for the taking.

The Raiders game @ Arrowhead. Need I say more?

chiefbowe82
12-18-2007, 10:53 PM
I can't believe how much younger we're getting.
Croyle-YOUNG
Johnson YOUNG Smith YOUNG
FB YOUNG probably a new YOUNG one
WR-YOUNG Bowe
WR-YOUNG FA or DRAFT?
TE-Gonzo
LT-YOUNG 1st round
LG-MIDDLE AGED FA
C-OLD AS DIRT
RG-Waters
RT-middled aged
DE-YOUNG Allen
DT-YOUNG TURK
DT-YOUNG TANK
DE-YOUNG HALI
OLB-YOUNG JOHNSON
MLB-Mid Aged
OLB-Edwards OLD
FS-YOUNG Page
SS-YOUNG Pollard
CB-Law/Surtain OLD
CB-YOUNG Brack?
P-YOUNG Colquitt
K-YOUNG Rayner? Medlock? FA?
LS-Darche Younger than gammon
Could be our starters next season?

Mecca
12-18-2007, 10:55 PM
Disagree. Buffalo was predicted to finish 4th in their conference, but Juaron did a hell of a job there, despite with the QB issues.

I can think of at least 3 games that the Chiefs COULD have won the game, have it not been for piss-poor coaching.

The Broncos game @ Arrowhead. Jesus, getting whipped by their JV squad was a piss-poor preperation by the coaching staff.

The Colts game @ Indy. Yes, I know the Colts weren't 100% in all areas, and we caught them when Manning was struggling terribly. But it was 10-10 and the game was there for the taking.

The Raiders game @ Arrowhead. Need I say more?

Buffalo has more talent than we do........even with their 15 guys on IR. They have a lot more when their team is healthy, just no one really notices.

Coach
12-18-2007, 10:55 PM
Well he's dealing with Carl Peterson who doesn't want to rebuild at all.....this team tried to do a halfass rebuild because Peterson doesn't want a full one...

And this is what we got....

Well, I partly agree, but also disagree as well. When was the last O-lineman that Herm actually drafted in the first two rounds, in his time in NY.

Oh, that's right. Zero.

Mecca
12-18-2007, 10:56 PM
Well, I partly agree, but also disagree as well. When was the last O-lineman that Herm actually drafted in the first two rounds, in his time in NY.

Oh, that's right. Zero.

Well only 1 of NE's Olineman was taken in the 1st 2 rounds.....it's not a requirement or anything.

FAX
12-18-2007, 10:57 PM
Like I said though...what do you expect them to do? Numerous teams go into years fully knowing they may be bad that year and maybe even the next couple of years.

I very much like the idea of building a young team that can give us a solid foundation for the next decade. And I, for one, am willing to take the pain associated with that effort, Mr. Mecca. I've been very consistent about that.

But remember that Herm has also repeatedly said that this team/season has not met his expectations. You can't have it both ways - unless you're Herm, I suppose. Either you expected to be better or you didn't. Frankly, if he perceived that this kind of season was even a remote possibility (and remember also that Herm has said this was one possible outcome he predicted as far back as the off-season), he could have and should have made changes early on to forestall the problems the organization is facing.

As far as what could have been done, there are so many specific examples of changes he could have made and that were available to him before kickoff number one, I honestly don't want to list them all.

FAX

Coach
12-18-2007, 10:58 PM
Buffalo has more talent than we do........even with their 15 guys on IR. They have a lot more when their team is healthy, just no one really notices.

That's becuase the coaching staff in Buffalo have done a good job, despite 15 guys on IR.

That's a testament on how a fine job they done.

We only have what, 6-7 guys on IR? None of them are what you consider "starters"

The only major injury on a starter was Larry Johnson, and for some unknown reason, he's not on the IR.

Mecca
12-18-2007, 10:59 PM
Oh that is lip service shit no question. I can see why Carl wants to be 8-8 every year there are a lot of fans in this town that can't even take 1 bad year, let alone 2 or 3.

FAX
12-18-2007, 11:00 PM
You don't have to be a dick, Mr. Mecca.

A lot of people are willing to take the losses associated with a "rebuild". No question about it. But, why make it more difficult than it has to be?

FAX

Mecca
12-18-2007, 11:02 PM
You don't have to be a dick, Mr. Mecca.

A lot of people are willing to take the losses associated with a "rebuild". No question about it. But, why make it more difficult than it has to be?

FAX

It was more a general comment than being a dick to you......look at how people react in general in the city after this year......

Mecca
12-18-2007, 11:05 PM
That's becuase the coaching staff in Buffalo have done a good job, despite 15 guys on IR.

That's a testament on how a fine job they done.

We only have what, 6-7 guys on IR? None of them are what you consider "starters"

The only major injury on a starter was Larry Johnson, and for some unknown reason, he's not on the IR.

But they still have a base.......the Chiefs really don't have much to compete with Lee Evans, Jason Peters, Derrick Dockery Donte Whitner and so forth.

Coach
12-18-2007, 11:05 PM
Well only 1 of NE's Olineman was taken in the 1st 2 rounds.....it's not a requirement or anything.

Yes, but I'm talking about the draft in whole.

2005 - 0 O-lineman
2004 - 1 O-lineman in the 6th round
2003 - 1 O-lineman in the 7th round
2002 - 1 O-lineman in the 5th round
2001 - 1 O-lineman in the 3rd round

No wonder why their QB's were dropping like flies.

Coach
12-18-2007, 11:06 PM
But they still have a base.......the Chiefs really don't have much to compete with Lee Evans, Jason Peters, Derrick Dockery Donte Whitner and so forth.

They do have much to compete with. Jared Allen, Tamba Hali, Derrick Johnson, Dustin Colquitt, Larry Johnson, Brian Waters.

Look, the talent is there. I just think it's being very poorly mis-used.

Chiefnj2
12-18-2007, 11:08 PM
It was more a general comment than being a dick to you......look at how people react in general in the city after this year......
People are acting this way because there is no plan. The team is in disarray. It wasn't a real rebuilding year, it was half-assed and will get half-assed results with continued poor coaching and poor personnel decisions.

Mecca
12-18-2007, 11:09 PM
They do have much to compete with. Jared Allen, Tamba Hali, Derrick Johnson, Dustin Colquitt, Larry Johnson, Brian Waters.

Look, the talent is there. I just think it's being very poorly mis-used.

You listed the punter, cmon......ok Buffalo has a really good punter too...

And as it stands I'd rather have Marshawn Lynch than Larry Johnson...

Mecca
12-18-2007, 11:10 PM
People are acting this way because there is no plan. The team is in disarray. It wasn't a real rebuilding year, it was half-assed and will get half-assed results with continued poor coaching and poor personnel decisions.

Now that pretty much sums it up really well. I however think there'd still be numerous people flipping out even if there was a real plan. I honestly have no faith in them to do it properly.

Coach
12-18-2007, 11:12 PM
You listed the punter, cmon......ok Buffalo has a really good punter too...

And as it stands I'd rather have Marshawn Lynch than Larry Johnson...

And I would too. But to write off Larry Johnson as if he's like Johnny Johnson, no. :shake:

Look, it's obvious. This coaching staff does not have a clue on how to make the proper adjustments, especially after halftime.

That's one of the reasons why the Chiefs do well in the first half, but then suck major ass in the 2nd half. There is no adjustment. You have to adjust, even if things are working for you in the first half, becuase the other team will adjust their stuff to counter your best stuff that was working in the first half.

RedThat
12-20-2007, 03:12 AM
I don't think Herm is a very good coach either, but at the same time I don't think this team would be any good even with a great coach.

ROFL Are you serious?

you don't think this team would be good with a great coach?

that's like saying this team wouldn't be good if they had peyton manning either?

no offense, but that's a little overboard, and pure doom and gloom.

HemiEd
12-30-2007, 04:57 PM
ROFL

Todd Collins was awesome in his last start. What'd he complete, 8 passes?

Watch the games. Like I said, the Chiefs kept the wrong guy.

mcan
12-30-2007, 07:16 PM
And I would too. But to write off Larry Johnson as if he's like Johnny Johnson, no. :shake:

Look, it's obvious. This coaching staff does not have a clue on how to make the proper adjustments, especially after halftime.

That's one of the reasons why the Chiefs do well in the first half, but then suck major ass in the 2nd half. There is no adjustment. You have to adjust, even if things are working for you in the first half, becuase the other team will adjust their stuff to counter your best stuff that was working in the first half.


We suck in the second half because Herm Edwards believes in short practices. So we practice for an hour and half. Then we play the game and look OK for an hour and a half. When we come back out, we're tired... The other guys... Not so much.

We have many other problems as well, but this is the reason for the first/second half descrepancy, IMO...

Cochise
12-30-2007, 07:26 PM
The more time goes by, the more it sounds like Herm wanted to really rebuild and Carl was impeding him.

I'm not a Herm pimp, but seriously, nobody could have thought this team was going to be competitive. And Carl said on his radio show that they thought the oline would be good enough because they were veteran.

I don't think Herm is a good coach, but he had to know better than that.

This is 75% on Carl IMO

ptlyon
12-30-2007, 07:28 PM
We fire that ****er yet?

dallaschiefsfan
12-30-2007, 07:34 PM
The more time goes by, the more it sounds like Herm wanted to really rebuild and Carl was impeding him.

I'm not a Herm pimp, but seriously, nobody could have thought this team was going to be competitive. And Carl said on his radio show that they thought the oline would be good enough because they were veteran.

I don't think Herm is a good coach, but he had to know better than that.

This is 75% on Carl IMO

I can only partially agree with this. I really believe Vermeil/Saunders would have made this line competitive because they would have had them pulling more...which is what this group does well (Macintosh might be the exception). Instead, Herm stubbornly had them blocking in a way that did not accentuate this group's skills...and for that, I will not let Herm off the hook. Carl should be fired because he hired Herm...but he is partially right when he says that this group could have been decent.

a1na2
12-30-2007, 07:37 PM
After seeing my worst fears come true in Herm with the Jetsification of the Chiefs (a top 5 draft pick) and the destruction of a team. I wonder in this microwave world of instant gratification how is it we cling to the notion 2 years doesn't set a trend especially giving his previous body of work. So I thought well surely 2 years must be handed out like candy in the past to any head coach and then it occurred to me to check the Chiefs history to confirm this.

Chiefs Head Coaches with shortest tenures:

Tom Bettis - 1977
Frank Gansz - 1987-1988
Gunther Cunningham - 1999-2000
Paul Wiggin - 1975-1977
John Mackovic - 1983-1986

Thats half of the Chiefs Head Coaches in the history of this team. 3 of them are 2 years or less. So in the present world why not cut ties with Herm. Actually excluding Herm 33% of Chiefs coaches have had a tenure of 2 years or less. And yes I know Bettis is a bad choice. Still 2 years of Herm like performance has cost coaches their jobs in the past.

Dave

There is absolutely no reason to keep him as the HC. I don't think as poorly of Carl as most do but if we are going to do the deed we need to make a clean sweep. All Coaches as well as the GM.

Chief Faithful
12-30-2007, 07:44 PM
Why do we need to give Herm more time? Because we have absolutely no say in the matter. Since I am a faithful fan I'm giving him more time.

TN_Chief
12-30-2007, 07:46 PM
I can only partially agree with this. I really believe Vermeil/Saunders would have made this line competitive because they would have had them pulling more...which is what this group does well (Macintosh might be the exception). Instead, Herm stubbornly had them blocking in a way that did not accentuate this group's skills...and for that, I will not let Herm off the hook. Carl should be fired because he hired Herm...but he is partially right when he says that this group could have been decent.A-****ing-men. Among Herm's many problems is his absolute refusal to construct gameplans and coach to his talent. Instead of playcalling to what they do well, Herm's philosophy is to continue trying to jam square pegs into round holes.

FringeNC
12-30-2007, 07:47 PM
Carl needs to go, obviously. Having said that, I don't envy having the decision to make about Herm. It's obvious that the Chiefs were just a terribly-coached team this year. Carl has to know that. But he just gave a draft pick for the guy, and if rumors are to be believed, shoved Vermeil, his friend, out the door for this guy, and Carl never admits to a mistake. My guess is Carl sides with his ego, and convinces himself that Herm isn't the disaster he appears to be.

TN_Chief
12-30-2007, 07:48 PM
Since I am a faithful fan I'm giving him more time.Wise up Slappy. Blind faith to the men running this team is idiotic. They have not proven themselves worthy of it.

dallaschiefsfan
12-30-2007, 07:48 PM
Why do we need to give Herm more time? Because we have absolutely no say in the matter. Since I am a faithful fan I'm giving him more time.

"'The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."

An over-the-top quote to be sure...but Carl/Herm are officially cancers to this organization...blind loyalty cannot be the response at this point.

Cochise
12-30-2007, 07:50 PM
I can only partially agree with this. I really believe Vermeil/Saunders would have made this line competitive because they would have had them pulling more...

Those guys suck ass. It's not like they are Vermeil holdovers who would be awesome if they were pulling. They could be driving tanks and they'd still have guys whipping around them like the Indy 500.

a1na2
12-30-2007, 07:50 PM
A-****ing-men. Among Herm's many problems is his absolute refusal to construct gameplans and coach to his talent. Instead of playcalling to what they do well, Herm's philosophy is to continue trying to jam square pegs into round holes.

It is very good to see that others realize that it's not that we don't have the talent on the team but that the HC is old school and cannot properly utilize what he has.

Why didn't Hermit throw the 65 yd pass to someone that could catch it? Why did we throw so few times to Bowe? Could it be due to the fact that Hermit wanted to lose this game? ( I don't really think so, but why would you shut out your best WR? )

dallaschiefsfan
12-30-2007, 07:56 PM
Those guys suck ass. It's not like they are Vermeil holdovers who would be awesome if they were pulling. They could be driving tanks and they'd still have guys whipping around them like the Indy 500.

Sorry dude...you've said nothing convincing. We'll simply never know whether these guys really degraded as fast as people think because they instantly got thrown into a blocking system that was not their thing. Even Brian Waters wasn't up to snuff this year. Why? Because he was more suited for the previous style of pulling more often. Others can see this...you can not. We disagree. Move on.

Oh...and the middle three ARE Vermeil holdovers...

Cochise
12-30-2007, 07:58 PM
Sorry dude...you've said nothing convincing. We'll simply never know whether these guys really degraded as fast as people think because they instantly got thrown into a blocking system that was not their thing. Even Brian Waters wasn't up to snuff this year. Why? Because he was more suited for the previous style of pulling more often. Others can see this...you can not. We disagree. Move on.

Oh...and the middle three ARE Vermeil holdovers...

When was McIntosh good? He's just a body. Waters is fine, but he can't block two people at once. Weigman was an undersized players specialized to that system, which left three years ago. Welborne has always sucked. Terry sucks. Svitek sucks. No one else has shown anything at all. We have 1.5 legitimate NFL offensive line starters on our roster. Our entire roster is depleted.

It just doesn't wash. There isn't anyone outside of Waters who definitely deserves to start on a good offensive line.

Count Alex's Wins
12-30-2007, 08:00 PM
Sorry dude...you've said nothing convincing. We'll simply never know whether these guys really degraded as fast as people think because they instantly got thrown into a blocking system that was not their thing. Even Brian Waters wasn't up to snuff this year. Why? Because he was more suited for the previous style of pulling more often. Others can see this...you can not. We disagree. Move on.

Oh...and the middle three ARE Vermeil holdovers...

Welbourn and Terry are not suited for anything. They suck. So does Wiegmann. None of them will be on an NFL roster next year.

Count Alex's Wins
12-30-2007, 08:04 PM
We suck in the second half because Herm Edwards believes in short practices. So we practice for an hour and half. Then we play the game and look OK for an hour and a half. When we come back out, we're tired... The other guys... Not so much.

We have many other problems as well, but this is the reason for the first/second half descrepancy, IMO...

I don't agree with this. We were just fine in the second half last year.

dallaschiefsfan
12-30-2007, 08:07 PM
Welbourn and Terry are not suited for anything. They suck. So does Wiegmann. None of them will be on an NFL roster next year.

Terry was a mistake...Turley was a gamble. You are completely wrong on Wiegman, though...he played very well in the former blocking system. He plays like any guy of his size would play in the Herminator's system. He gets roughed up all they time because he's not suited to block in this system. He should have retired with Shields and saved himself from an impossible situation.

Count Alex's Wins
12-30-2007, 08:10 PM
Terry was a mistake...Turley was a gamble. You are completely wrong on Wiegman, though...he played very well in the former blocking system. He plays like any guy of his size would play in the Herminator's system. He gets roughed up all they time because he's not suited to block in this system. He should have retired with Shields and saved himself from an impossible situation.

Wiegmann sucks. The guy is good at pulling, yes. You can't pull him on every play.

Dave Lane
12-25-2008, 08:52 AM
A bump for year #3 any arguments now??

cdcox
12-25-2008, 09:11 AM
Let the record note that you're willing to give Herm more time than even I - the uber-Herm defender - is willing to give him. If we're this bad in 2008, he will and should be fired.

If I'm not mistaken, Zouk is still a strong Herm defender.

Deberg_1990
12-25-2008, 09:20 AM
haha...nice bump. Perhaps the best bump of all time.

Dave Lane
12-25-2008, 09:28 AM
haha...nice bump. Perhaps the best bump of all time.

I thought it was pretty interesting after reading the comments...

crossbow
12-25-2008, 10:20 AM
If the Home opener debacle against the Raiders didn't expose Herm then there is no hope for you guys. His team wasn't even close to being prepared to take the field. It was all I needed to see.

Lets give Charlie Manson another chance too. I don't think it is fair to judge a man after only one slip up.

The Bad Guy
12-25-2008, 10:26 AM
I think Herm came in saddled with an OC and a DC dictated by CP. Herm has mentioned on a couple of occasions lately that there are things he can not talk about as directed by powers above in the organization. And even though he came out and said Gun is his man for the DC spot, it is clear they are not on the same page.

I really believe Herm and Dungy are of the same mold, and I like what Dungy has done in both Indy and Tampa. But I believe Herm needs to be allowed to run the team the way he sees fit, and not with the meddling of the GM to interfer with the everyday operations of the coaching staff.

Another person brainwashed by Herm.

Tom Moore was forced on Tony Dungy. Tony Dungy changed because Peyton Manning forced him to.

Herm picked his coordinators. He picked Gunther. He wanted Gunther in NY, but he came back here.

His fucking record is 15-33 in 3 years. That's with 9 wins the first year.