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NaptownChief
07-21-2001, 11:16 AM
Raiders | Wisniewski Note - posted at KFFL (http://nfl.kffl.com)
20:41 PT: The Associated Press reports the Oakland Raiders opened training camp on Friday missing OL Steve Wisniewski. He was at a "seminary function" in Southern California. Coach Jon Gruden, who said he has not heard that Wisniewski doesn't plan on playing this season, expected to talk to him in the next few days.


Further proof of the old saying "Religion, the last refuge of a scoundrel."

KCJohnny
07-21-2001, 11:51 AM
Further proof, jl, that you do not know what you are talking about and exceed every standard of decency with that insulting, irreligious comment. We do not know what is in his heart; only God does. And yes, even Raiders can be saved by the grace of God.

KCJ
Chaplain

NaptownChief
07-21-2001, 12:04 PM
KCJ,

I damn near deleted this post after I put it up cause I figured you would turn it into another opportunity to preach atop your house of cards...

How bout you dig real deep and try to show respect to a person, any person, that might have different views than your own. We don't need to rehash our beliefs. I fully understand where you stand and you fully understand where I am at...Though I absolutely don't share your views on the topic I still show you respect. Unlike you, you have to spew out things like "you do not know what you are talking about and exceed every standard of decency...".

I was merely throwing out a quote that I find funny...Not everyone will share in that humor but if they are secure in their beliefs they shouldn't take it as an insult...

milkman
07-21-2001, 12:19 PM
Nap,
On a lighter note, with Wiesnewski in a seminary, and Kaufman's stated desire to follow the same path, does this mean that the clergy is being Raided?:D

NaptownChief
07-21-2001, 12:22 PM
Milkman,

I think so...Maybe Wiz and Kaufman can hold a religious cult rally complete with guns, blades and plenty of brown bagged 40's....

KCJohnny
07-21-2001, 12:24 PM
If you had intended it to be humorous, that was certainly NOT clear, and those of us who worship God would still not have found it amusing.

On an evengelical note, your comments ring with (unintended, I'm sure) TRUTH: religion, at least the faith of the Christian Church is INDEED a refuge for scoundrels, murderers, profane men, whores and thieves, rogues and irreligious people of every sort who are graciously invited to come to the cleansing fountain of Christ's holy blood and become new creations. Even Raiders players and YOU...

KCJ
Chaplain
:)

NaptownChief
07-21-2001, 12:37 PM
KCJ,

I found humor in it primarily due to the fact that we are talking about not only a Raider, but a Raider that is considered one of the dirtiest of all time...


But seriously, I truly believe my comment about a person who is secure in their belief should not be insulted...

For example, if you walk up to a guy who is chiseled out of stone like say Jason Seahorn and say "hey you big fat a$$..." he will probably laugh and is not going to be offended cause he knows it isn't true....on the other hand, you say the same thing to a women who is 100 pounds overweight and she will not only be offended but will probably start throwing insults back at you all the while start crying...

So if you truly believe you are holding life's golden egg of knowledge while the rest of us are just basking in our own ignorance, then you should just sit there and smile as opposed to hurling insults cause it gives you the look insecurity...

KCJohnny
07-21-2001, 12:41 PM
If I was insecure, Im would be too intimidated to offer the invitation to know the Savior.
It is popular in our culture to disparage religion. As a religious professional, I know that well. It is unpopular to propagate religion which begets wholesomeness, courage and virtue in men.
KCJ
Sinner

tommykat
07-21-2001, 12:49 PM
Just reading trying to catch up....so Wisniewski is one of the worst
Raiders? As in what kind of trouble, jail time? Drugs?? What? What is so funny that he has had a change of heart and is doing what he is right now. Nothing is stated that he isn't playing football yet. Just a little...:confused:

NaptownChief
07-21-2001, 12:54 PM
I'm not saying you are insecure in your beliefs...I was just giving you my 2 cents on how to avoid the appearance...


"It is popular in our culture to disparage religion." I am not so sure that I agree with this point...Even though there are many non-believer who share my views, most of them don't have the balls to voice it...I think this goes back to how this post started. Religious believers have a nearly impossible time being respectful to others who oppose their beliefs. So most people who are non-believers don't voice that opinion because they don't want to jeopardize friendships and relationships with believers.

It is rare that non-believer attack believers. Non-believers, in general are very open to hanging around and making friendship with believers. That is probably due to the fact that it takes an open mind to challenge the process in the first place. However, many believers refuse to associate with anyone who will not agree to share their views..."Worldly association".

Luzap
07-21-2001, 01:00 PM
jl80,

I am really not wanting to get into another theocratical debate, but I think it is worthy of note that your paradigm on our society is 180 different than mine.

I personally disagree with just about everything you stated in your last post :)

Luz
just sharing my viewpoint...

NaptownChief
07-21-2001, 01:10 PM
Luz,

Then explain to me why you think so many people throughout the world have been fighting religious wars with each other for hundreds of years?

My belief is that it all comes back to the fact that religious people in general have a very tough time respecting anyone who don't share their beliefs...However, I do welcome your thoughts on why you think they chose to fight and kill each other...



TommyKat,

I will spell it out for you...


The Raiders: Established historical reputation for being a bunch of thugs, scoundrels and the dirtiest team in football.

Wisniewski: Established reputation as being one of the dirtiest players on the dirtiest team that has the reputation for being the most corrupt franchise.


"Religion, the last refuge for a scoundrel..."


It is called IRONY

NaptownChief
07-21-2001, 01:21 PM
Thanks Punisher....Good to see someone in here without a chip on their shoulder...Sheeese...

tommykat
07-21-2001, 01:28 PM
jl80
I wasn't born yesterday~I know about the Raiders and their reputation...I just thought maybe Wisniewski had done something
other than the usual Raider players things.:p

NaptownChief
07-21-2001, 02:38 PM
Sorry TommyKat I mistook you for a KCJ pile-on....

He is just known as an eye gouging, illegal chop blocking dirty player...No criminal record.

Luzap
07-21-2001, 02:54 PM
JL80... What?

How did we go from talking about contemporary attitudes and social trends in the US, to the history of world warfare?

There is no doubt (I didn't think) in anyone's mind that the Christain ethic and foundation that this country's morals and laws were built on is being eroded. The public cry today to limit religion in publicly sponsored domains would have been considered insane as little as thirty years ago.

For your paradigm to be the opposite of this is a huge surprise to me.

Luz
not sure what else to say...

NaptownChief
07-21-2001, 03:06 PM
Luz,

It appears that we were debating different parts of my post...I was debating religious peoples typical disrespect for those who don't share their views...And I believe you were speaking about the point of which side of the religious debate is harder to voice in public...

The reality of the point you are discussing is that it probably is very similar for both sides...My guess is that there is plenty of people out there on both sides of that debate. I think in general people are disrespectful to anybody who doesn't share their opinions, whether it be religion, politics or whatever....It just seems that the religious folks can tend to be more radical and arrogant in their disrespect, but that is just my opinion...

Luzap
07-21-2001, 03:20 PM
jl80,

I take issue when you say 'religious peoples typical disrespect for others that don't share their views'.

This is absurd

All spectrums of sociological groupings have their extremists and lunatic fringe. Manytimes in history, these extremists have actually ended up in power.

To claim, however, that these peoples represent their grouping is naive in the extreem.

Luz
i thought better of you than that...

Luzap
07-21-2001, 03:27 PM
jl80,

When most people make statements like that, they are not referring to intollerance. They are uncomfortable because someone has the nerve to say that they're wrong and what they're doing is wrong.

This isn't intollerance, this is taking a moral stance. It is not a judgement on you. Perhaps you should be more thick skinned and more secure in your beliefs?;)

Luz
i enjoy our conversations, but will not condone irresponsible labeling...

NaptownChief
07-21-2001, 03:42 PM
Luz,

I don't think that is even close to being absurd...

Take KCJ for instance, I don't consider him a radical or an extremist. IMO he reflects the majority of the religious folk in that he believes his religious beliefs are the "accurate" beliefs and that the Catholics, the Jews, the Islamic etc.etc are in the wrong...That is a very common thought pattern within most religions...Considering most people within those religions have never taken the time to truly study all the other religions that they tend to poor mouth is very arrogant and disrespectful...I will give KCJ some credit cause he at least appears to have studied many of the religions that he puts down.

KCJohnny
07-21-2001, 05:17 PM
Oh please!
Name a religion I have disparaged!
Here I am defending religion, as a disparager of religion???
And I wouldn't say that the Catholics are wrong, seeing I am one ;) .

Luzap is right. Our culture has gone from a solidly Judeo Christian morality-informed one to a radically secular state with little tolerance for religion in the public square.

You paint with WAY too broad a brush, jl.

KCJ
Religious scoundrel

Luzap
07-21-2001, 05:37 PM
jl80,

And just exactly how is that being intollerant of others?

When I tell you that you are wrong about Christianity (which you are ~ it gives new meaning to the phrase 'dead wrong') that doesn't make me intollerant of you.

Please explain how this makes me intollerant of you - as this is the entire basis of your statement and argument.

Luz
i want to see this...

Mi_chief_fan
07-21-2001, 07:23 PM
Originally posted by Luzap


When I tell you that you are wrong about Christianity (which you are ~ it gives new meaning to the phrase 'dead wrong') that doesn't make me intollerant of you.



Oh really? Prove it. (The part about being wrong). That's just the type of rhetoric that drives many people like myself (and i'm guessing jl80) away from organized religion.

Never thought i'd come to jl80's defense.........

KCJohnny
07-21-2001, 08:12 PM
Jl, you probably meant no harm, and it seems that I am overreacting, but that phrase means one thing if it it rebukes a scoundrel and another thing if you mean it to disparage religion.
Let's cool it. OK?



That's just the type of rhetoric that drives many people like myself (and i'm guessing jl80) away from organized religion.

Brother, that is not a good enough excuse. This thing is about God, you and eternity, and if a hypocrite stands between you and God, then he is closer to God than you are.

KCJ
Praying for his BB friends (seriously)

soliday
07-21-2001, 08:14 PM
Actually,

The saying is, "Patriotism, the last refuge of the scoundrel."

Soliday

keg in kc
07-21-2001, 08:26 PM
He said a hypocrite stood between he and organized religion.

He did not say anything about what may or may not stand between he and god.

Religion and belief are different subjects altogether. One does not have to find religion to find god. One does not even have to find god if they choose to go that route.

It's the "free will" thing, and Nap (and everyone else) has his own path to find, whatever that may be. If he's comfortable with where he is than be happy for him, don't chastize him simply because your own view is different.

I think blaming society's problems on a lack of religion is incorrect and short-sighted. Society's ills are a result of a lack of personal responsibility, the disintigration of the parent (not the "family", the parent) and the complete focus of America on one thing, and one thing alone: greed and acquisition of wealth.

Mi_chief_fan
07-21-2001, 08:28 PM
KCJ,

For the record, nobody is standing between me and "god", it's a choice I make on my own free will. It's something that doesn't sit well with my wife and her family, but it's just something that i'm either not ready to commit to, or that i'm not convinced exists, and just don't want to waste my time with.

Of course, I could be wrong. I try to avoid religion and/or religious topics; but when I see a quote made out of sheer arrogance, I just had to respond. Nothing personal, Luzap.

KCJohnny
07-21-2001, 08:29 PM
Kyle,
I agree, but according to the father of our republic, religion is the primary source of that responsible citizenship you laud. Reduced to a practical syllogism, yes, lack of religion = lack of morals = social decay.

KCJ
George Washington supporter

FloridaChief
07-21-2001, 08:29 PM
Originally posted by soliday
Actually,

The saying is, "Patriotism, the last refuge of the scoundrel."

Soliday

Soliday's right.

Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel.

--Samuel Johnson, 1775

KCJohnny
07-21-2001, 08:30 PM
MCF:
I respect that.
If you ever want to ask a question or vent or just ask for a prayer, I'm here at familypeople@juno.com.

KCJ
KCStar BB Chaplain

Mi_chief_fan
07-21-2001, 08:32 PM
Actually Johnny,

I had a bad experience in church when I was 13, and i've never overcome it. I don't really want to talk about it on the board, but maybe i'll get in touch with you about it.

keg in kc
07-21-2001, 08:40 PM
John, I'm a living, breathing example that lack of religion does not necessarily equal lack of morals.

There are also examples a-plenty that religion does not necessarily equal morals.

Exceptions to the rule? Perhaps, but when you're making sweeping generalizations you need to recognize the exceptions, as well.


I support our 6th President too (yes, I said 6th ;))

I was just interjecting briefly, I'm going to continue to stay away from religious debates....

Luzap
07-21-2001, 08:59 PM
Mi_chief_fan,

I have found that, whether I agree or not, I usually respect most of what you say ~ this time I do not.

You (by association) are basically accusing me of being intolerant. You prove that this is true. Because I have the courage to say that someone is wrong in a public forum is not intolerant.

Nor is it disrespectful. It is simply stating my belief. I would suggest your belittlement of my actions here is an example of YOUR intolerance.

Luz
Remember, what we hate most in others is what we usually see in ourselves…

Luzap
07-21-2001, 09:04 PM
BTW, I am not taking this conversation personally (and I hope you are not either).

You are standing on statements that I will state are wrong. You certainly have the right to do the same thing.

Luz
but it still won't make you right ;) ...

ChiefGator
07-21-2001, 09:06 PM
I have no problem with Organized Religion as long as it is in power. But Religion and Power tend to corrupt more than any other two items. (see Inquisition, Crusades, etc...)

Nice quote though.. both in the Religion and Patriotism flavors..

Clint in Wichita
07-21-2001, 09:21 PM
The only time I have any problem with organized religion is when they try and push their beliefs/morals onto others, as in the abortion issue.

Mi_chief_fan
07-22-2001, 06:59 AM
Luzap,

If you thought I was calling you intolerant, I apologize,it was not my intention. I still don't know exactly where you're getting that idea from. The fact that we disagree is one thing; what I have trouble with is that you call the opinions of jl80 & myself wrong, even though you can't actually prove it(I know, I can't prove it wrong either).

Who knows. Perhaps someday, i'll come around to your way of thinking. ;)

KCJohnny
07-22-2001, 09:08 AM
Clint,
From my foxhole, I'd say it is the pro-abortion folks who are doing the pushing here.

KCJ
Manning his foxhole diligently

NaptownChief
07-22-2001, 01:26 PM
Originally posted by Luzap


You are standing on statements that I will state are wrong. You certainly have the right to do the same thing.




Since how you granted us permission....Luz, my beliefs are accurate and yours are wrong...:D

RaiderCorporate
07-22-2001, 10:19 PM
Jl80:

According to a search I did, “Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel” is attributed to a man named Samuel Johnson, who wrote it in his "Letter to Lord Chesterfield," 7 April 1775.

“Public office is the last refuge of a scoundrel” is attributed to someone named Boies Penrose, in 1931.

“Prayer is the last refuge of the scoundrel” is attributed to Lisa Simpson of "The Simpsons."

Couldn’t find one about “Religion is the last refuge of the scoundrel” though.

So, did you actually read that “old saying” somewhere or were you simply tweaking noses among your cheeves kindred?

NaptownChief
07-23-2001, 12:04 PM
Corporate,

It is an old saying that a good friend of mine has always used...I believe his old man passed it down to him...Regardless of its origin, it is one that I appreciate...

Clint in Wichita
07-23-2001, 12:05 PM
Wisnewski...semenary?

I would've bet money that he was straight!!;)

NaptownChief
07-23-2001, 01:08 PM
Clint,

Do you think this will cause him to take a liking to little boys?

KCJohnny
07-23-2001, 08:21 PM
That was below the belt, jl.
May God not reward you according to your desserts.

tommykat
07-23-2001, 09:57 PM
Hey all........sorry not enough time to read all the posts, been having a lot of trouble getting on tonight.....but has anything been said about him playing or not?

CanadaKC
07-23-2001, 11:08 PM
Tommykat...the news is still 50-50 on Wisniewski, but him not showing up for training camp could be the telling tale. He's 34,
and good friends with ex-teammate Napolean Kaufman, who also retired to follow God.

On the good side, he'll be preaching while the Raiders O-Line suffers a HUGE blow without him, and they sink in the standings because of it. One team's loss is another's gain, and the Chiefs just got better should he retire ;)

Baby Lee
07-24-2001, 01:20 PM
I take issue when you say 'religious peoples typical disrespect for others that don't share their views'.

Luz - would you feel that KC-Johnny's offer to pray against my very condemnation for questioning Reverend Wright's motives in his 'prayer' is atypical? Or am I wrong in finding it disrespectful?