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View Full Version : What is ailing public education in America?


Joe Seahawk
12-19-2007, 12:18 AM
poll to follow..

choices courtesy of the Seattle Times (http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/opinion/2004078970_hagopian18.html) .. :shake:

SBK
12-19-2007, 12:56 AM
Hahaha.

Taco John
12-19-2007, 01:02 AM
Haha... I recently received a call with similar questions. I was laughing at my choices the entire time, and eventually complained that all of the answers favored a governmental approach to public schooling. I finally protested and let the questioner know that I thought the choices were ridiculous and that I felt the problem was not funding but rather the over involvement of government in education, and lack of true choices for parents.

She obviously didn't have a field for that.

patteeu
12-19-2007, 05:35 AM
Let's see Ron Paul win this online poll.

Sully
12-19-2007, 06:12 AM
Parents.

stevieray
12-19-2007, 06:16 AM
Parents.

stole my thunder...I was going to say lack of father figures..

Saulbadguy
12-19-2007, 06:37 AM
Parents.
Agree!

Mr. Kotter
12-19-2007, 07:23 AM
"Because people as incompetent and despicable as Kotter are hired as teachers! How the hell could anyone trust their children's education to an idiodic moron like him? School choice, home-schooling and vouchers are the only way we can protect our children from a creeps like that homophobic and pathetic piece of sh*t. "


:clap:



"Whoomp there it is...."



:thumb:

KILLER_CLOWN
12-19-2007, 07:39 AM
Parents are certainly an issue with the fact being that both parents usually work and don't spend much time with their children. Now the nanny state is suggesting starting the endoctrination at age 3, NO NO NO. 455k a per American wasted to war, that could have easily kept mom/dad home to actually raise and have an influence on the Kids future.

patteeu
12-19-2007, 07:53 AM
455k a per American wasted to war, that could have easily kept mom/dad home to actually raise and have an influence on the Kids future.

:spock:

Ron Paul must be proud. :shake:

wazu
12-19-2007, 08:10 AM
Parents.

jAZ
12-19-2007, 08:15 AM
poll to follow..

choices courtesy of the Seattle Times (http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/opinion/2004078970_hagopian18.html) .. :shake:
I don't know whether that was intentionally deceptive or accidentially.

I was laughing at the absurdity of the "poll" choices that the Seattle Times provided. Right up until I realized that it was actually part of the text of a columnist printed in the ST, rather than what I assumed was an online poll on their website.

As an online poll, it's BS.

As you descrined it, that was the obvious assumption.

As a rhetorical device not intended to solicit reader input, but rather part of a columnists opinion of what's wrong with public education... it's completely appropriate.

Wish you were more clear about the context... as it was presented, it's a little deceptive.

jAZ
12-19-2007, 08:16 AM
Let's see Ron Paul win this online poll.
I see I'm not alone in being mislead by Joe Seahwak.

BucEyedPea
12-19-2007, 08:48 AM
None of the choices; nor is it parents alone.

If you fixed all of those things, we'd still have the problems.

Iowanian
12-19-2007, 09:09 AM
I think there are several problems.

1. Admit that all children aren't equal in mental capacity. Some are just going to be advanced and some are going to flounder. Help those students, but not at the detriment of the others.

2. Its a dog eat dog world....teaching kids that they're each special, not giving grades so they won't be disappointed? This isn't exactly preparing them for THE REAL WORLD. Have you read the articles about how many 20somethings CRY at work when they get reprimanded?

3. Enough sensitivity training.....back to math, reading, writing, science, history etc.

patteeu
12-19-2007, 09:11 AM
I see I'm not alone in being mislead by Joe Seahwak.

I don't really feel misled. :shrug:

BucEyedPea
12-19-2007, 09:17 AM
Methods and Curriculums are two issues I have.

From a post over at Lew's. I've seen similar things but I really got a kick out of this:

This is directly out of my 6th grade sister's history book. (And she has a test over it tomorrow.) "At the beginning of the twenty-first century, terrorism became a major threat to world peace. In 2003, U.S. military forces invaded Iraq. They were sent to prevent Iraq from using chemical and biological weapons. ... The United States has protected innocent civilians or helped bring peace to a war-torn region."

People, Places and Change: An Introduction to World Studies
Holt, Rinehart and Winston
page 103

banyon
12-19-2007, 09:31 AM
I think there are several problems.

1. Admit that all children aren't equal in mental capacity. Some are just going to be advanced and some are going to flounder. Help those students, but not at the detriment of the others.

2. Its a dog eat dog world....teaching kids that they're each special, not giving grades so they won't be disappointed? This isn't exactly preparing them for THE REAL WORLD. Have you read the articles about how many 20somethings CRY at work when they get reprimanded?

3. Enough sensitivity training.....back to math, reading, writing, science, history etc.

Strangely, I agree with all of these points.

Amnorix
12-19-2007, 09:37 AM
I agree with Greenspan that part of it is the teacher union system is that it treats all teachers with similar experience similarly, while the marketplace places a higher premium on people with math/science backgrounds. They therefore could earn far more in the "real world" than they can teaching.

If I were the Bill Gates foundation, I'd fund country-wide additional stipends to highly qualified math/science teachers as an add-on to their regular, union salaries, and go around the system.

Another element of the problem is that teaching certificates are ridiculous to a degree. Why shouldn't a highly skilled math/science background person be able to retire from their regular job at 55 or so, and teach for antoher 10-15 years? As it stands, he/she would have to go back to school to be completely re-educated and qualified, and nobody is going to bother with that. therefore, the school loses a potentially highly qualified math teacher.

Amnorix
12-19-2007, 09:38 AM
I think there are several problems.

1. Admit that all children aren't equal in mental capacity. Some are just going to be advanced and some are going to flounder. Help those students, but not at the detriment of the others.

2. Its a dog eat dog world....teaching kids that they're each special, not giving grades so they won't be disappointed? This isn't exactly preparing them for THE REAL WORLD. Have you read the articles about how many 20somethings CRY at work when they get reprimanded?

3. Enough sensitivity training.....back to math, reading, writing, science, history etc.

I agree.

Point 2 espeically is interesting. Large companies are having seminars teaching mid-level management how to deal with the Y generation because they are so different from what they're used to. Not saying they have to baby them, but just trying to make them understand how the Y generation perceives things differently, and therefore will react differently under certain circumstances.

:shake:

banyon
12-19-2007, 09:40 AM
I've posted my answers before, but the three main things I would do are 1) End teacher tenure (so we can get rid of people who shouldn't be there) 2)extend the school year 3) Serious raise in teacher pay, so we can attract better people.

The "gubment is evil, dey screw everything up!" line of thought is just silly. They really have little to do with K-12 education in the first place (esp. before NCLB), with states and counties making most of the choices.

The countries whose kids are routinely trouncing ours in the tests have extensive national government involvment in their education. There aren't any countries that I am aware of that either privatized or left it up to locals and have some great test results to show for it.


Another thing I am open to doing is what the Brits do with the "leveling" (I'm sure there's a better term here but it escapes me) of kids around age 14 or so. They decide whether each kid will be on an academic, vocational, or general track by that point. I am sort of inclined to say we should wait to do that until age 16, but 15 might work too. 8th or 9th grade anyway.

Chiefnj2
12-19-2007, 09:43 AM
1. Economy. Both parents having to work and being away from the home until late at night to make ends meet. That ties into:
2. The family unit.
3. Focus on standardized tests. The way most schools and teachers are graded are by how students do on standardized tests. If you have a school that simply preps for the tests for weeks those kids will do better. It's like any other prep class.
4. Teacher raises. In large part they are based on higher degrees and #'s of credits. Just because a teacher takes and passes classes doesn't mean they are a better teacher. There's a good chance that their instructor never even had to sit in front of a group of 12 year olds.

***SPRAYER
08-04-2008, 10:49 AM
Obama’s daughters attend the University of Chicago Laboratory School, a private school. Malia is 10, and presumably just finished the fourth grade. Sasha is 7 and presumably just finished the first grade.

Standard full 2007-2008 tuition for grades one through four: $18,492.

For a fifth grader, it moves up to $20,286. If last year's rates apply to this fall, full tuition for both students for the coming year will be $38,778.

markk
08-04-2008, 10:53 AM
that poll is hilarious.


The problem is that the government runs it.

HC_Chief
08-04-2008, 11:06 AM
that poll is hilarious.


The problem is that the government runs it.

DING DING DING, We have a winnah!

Ultra Peanut
08-04-2008, 11:11 AM
Obama’s daughters attend the University of Chicago Laboratory School, a private school. Malia is 10, and presumably just finished the fourth grade. Sasha is 7 and presumably just finished the first grade.

Standard full 2007-2008 tuition for grades one through four: $18,492.

For a fifth grader, it moves up to $20,286. If last year's rates apply to this fall, full tuition for both students for the coming year will be $38,778.And to think, that bastard Obama is claiming that public schools are in good shape!

HonestChieffan
08-04-2008, 11:13 AM
None of the above. If thats your list of whats possibly wrong, you dont understand the issue

eazyb81
08-04-2008, 11:16 AM
There's way too much focus on helping the lesser students get by than continuing to push and challenge the brighter students. Eventually the brighter students get bored and become complacent, while the lesser students continue getting pushed through, which results in supremely average students overall.

eazyb81
08-04-2008, 11:17 AM
Obama’s daughters attend the University of Chicago Laboratory School, a private school. Malia is 10, and presumably just finished the fourth grade. Sasha is 7 and presumably just finished the first grade.

Standard full 2007-2008 tuition for grades one through four: $18,492.

For a fifth grader, it moves up to $20,286. If last year's rates apply to this fall, full tuition for both students for the coming year will be $38,778.

Wow, that's a very creepy post. Are you stalking them? And what does this have to do with the issue?

markk
08-04-2008, 11:19 AM
Obama’s daughters attend the University of Chicago Laboratory School, a private school... If last year's rates apply to this fall, full tuition for both students for the coming year will be $38,778.

I can't think of anyone who better understands problems facing people like me than a guy who pays $40 grand a year to send his kids to private school

eazyb81
08-04-2008, 11:22 AM
I can't think of anyone who better understands problems facing people like me than a guy who pays $40 grand a year to send his kids to private school

You can only understand the plight of the blue collar working man if you in fact are a blue collar working man? Maybe we should nominate Larry the Cable Guy as POTUS instead of Obama or McCain.

Ultra Peanut
08-04-2008, 11:24 AM
I can't think of anyone who better understands problems facing people like me than a guy who pays $40 grand a year to send his kids to private schoolOH MY GOD

HE'S AN ELITIST

mlyonsd
08-04-2008, 11:27 AM
This is easy. It's the family. If the parents want their kids to excel in school they'll make sure it happens.

Baby Lee
08-04-2008, 11:27 AM
F@cking old threads, ruining my 'welcome back stevieray' excitement.

NewChief
08-04-2008, 11:40 AM
.

Another element of the problem is that teaching certificates are ridiculous to a degree. Why shouldn't a highly skilled math/science background person be able to retire from their regular job at 55 or so, and teach for antoher 10-15 years? As it stands, he/she would have to go back to school to be completely re-educated and qualified, and nobody is going to bother with that. therefore, the school loses a potentially highly qualified math teacher.

Not necessarily. Most states (I think, I know Arkansas does) now have a non-traditional licensure route that allows anyone with a college degree to obtain a teaching license. In Arkansas it works like this:

Apply for program which involves submitting an essay, CV, background check, and proof of diploma.

Take tests to qualify as proficient in subject areas or grade levels.

Enroll in program, which involves three years of summer courses. If you land a job in a school district, you will be able to work as a teacher and earn salary under a provisional licensure while simultaneously taking these courses during your time off in the summer.

Upon completion of program, you will be awarded a full license.

In Arkansas, there is a fee for enrollment in the program, but you get a lot of the money back to spend in your classroom.

BucEyedPea
08-04-2008, 12:17 PM
This is easy. It's the family. If the parents want their kids to excel in school they'll make sure it happens.

Not true. That is way too simpleminded. I hear this all the time. It's
not that parents aren't a factor in their success even with successful methods and curriculms. But one can't exist without the other.

My sister had two failed kids, was involved, helped out the school as a volunteer, got the kids tutors ( govt tutors recommended by the school), made them do homework until she finally had to pull them and put them in a school specializing in remediation which turned them around using better, different methods, old tried and true ones abandoned for the trendy ones that took over. There's way too much labeling going on that blames the kids when it's the wrong method for them. He kids were turned around, eventually at a cost of $25k per year for each child for 2 years. This went on with about 1/3 of the kids in their neighborhood too. A wealthy suburban neighborhood outside Boston known for it's "good" schools.

Taco John
08-04-2008, 12:19 PM
I can't think of anyone who better understands problems facing people like me than a guy who pays $40 grand a year to send his kids to private school


Neither can I, actually. I don't plan on sending my kid to public school either.

BucEyedPea
08-04-2008, 12:23 PM
Obama’s daughters attend the University of Chicago Laboratory School, a private school. Malia is 10, and presumably just finished the fourth grade. Sasha is 7 and presumably just finished the first grade.

Standard full 2007-2008 tuition for grades one through four: $18,492.

For a fifth grader, it moves up to $20,286. If last year's rates apply to this fall, full tuition for both students for the coming year will be $38,778.

I thought I had it bad paying $9k a year ( which I split) which was for elementary and middle.

***SPRAYER
08-04-2008, 12:36 PM
Audits reveal waste in Abbott spending
by Ted Sherman and John Mooney/The Star-Ledger
Sunday May 11, 2008, 11:29 AM

New audits of New Jersey's most troubled school systems question more than $83 million in spending by the heavily state-subsidized districts -- from excessive travel expenses and legal fees to Christmas parties and food.

While 71 percent of all purchase orders examined were found to be "reasonable," the auditors concluded more than 25 cents of every dollar spent by the districts was unnecessary, excessive or lacking documentation.
The audits looked at all 31 of the state's neediest school districts -- known as "Abbott districts" -- which have been coming under increasing fiscal scrutiny in recent years. Overall, the Abbott districts -- serving about 275,000 students -- spent nearly $4 billion this school year, with about $3.1 billion funded by the state.

One school district, Pleasantville in Atlantic County, is the focus of an ongoing federal criminal investigation, while at least one other, Asbury Park, is being probed by the state Attorney General's Office, officials confirmed.
Auditors reviewed more than 30,000 purchases totaling nearly $290 million in the 2004-05 and 2005-06 school years -- everything from textbook contracts and teaching materials to cell phones and hotel bills -- to determine whether amounts spent were excessive, benefited students and were properly approved.

The state Department of Education released the audits after The Star-Ledger and other newspapers requested them under the Open Public Records Act.
The audits of all 31 districts can be found at nj.gov/education/finance/kw/
Read more in the Sunday Star-Ledger.

Bearcat2005
08-04-2008, 01:06 PM
I teach in the KC area and don't see an option for lack of parental support. Let's face it a lot of my students have no support at home.

Chiefnj2
08-04-2008, 01:16 PM
1. Parents not having enough time or not being around to work with the kids at home on homework.

2. Focus on test results just means that the curriculum becomes focussed on how to prepare the kids for the tests and get the highest grade. Other areas are ignored.

3. General lifestyle change where kids aren't allowed to be kids. Too much structure in school and too many after school programs. If your child plays two sports in a season you are looking at 6 of 7 days of the week occupied with practice and/or games.

Jenson71
08-04-2008, 01:37 PM
It's not traditional enough.

Money is important, but we need to recognize where money is important. Kids don't need laptops to learn.

There's not enough discipline. Let me rephrase that, actually. There's almost no discipline.

My girlfriend student taught at a large high school in town and anyone can just walk in and out of class whenever they want.

Teachers don't want to deal with a lot of hassle. They don't want to deal with all the crap from the kids or their parents.

The experience cemented down the idea that she wanted to teach at the Catholic schools.

***SPRAYER
08-04-2008, 01:42 PM
Corzine wants to increase state aid to Union City Schools by about $20 milllion dollars.

Currently, they get 76% of their funding by the state (i.e. the suburban ATMs).

An audit by the Dept of Education came up with these interesting facts:

A $13,000 monthly payment for 39 cell phones used by the bus drivers. That comes out to almost $345 dollars per month per cell phone

$73,000 for cable vision ad spots

$55,000 for a monthly newsletter

Bus drivers drivers paid $61,456, $51,725 and $73,000 in overtime.

Here's a good one - A $2,268 bill from the Sheraton Edison Hotel for students and two teachers. According to the audit report, no agenda was found and they were unable to determine the purpose or necessity of the trip
I wonder if they rented the honeymoon suite?

There's even more, if you can take it. BOHICA.

Ultra Peanut
08-04-2008, 01:59 PM
I thought I had it bad paying $9k a year ( which I split) which was for elementary and middle.You elitist.

StcChief
08-04-2008, 03:20 PM
what about the NEA?

BucEyedPea
08-04-2008, 03:28 PM
You elitist.

I was just comparing what a bargain it was compared to Obama's tuition for his children. That's the range public schools spend per child. And there are schools more expensive than that as you can see. There's another one here that was 13k and that was 7-8 years ago. My daughter wanted to put her in a $37K per year ( including board for HS) but I said no.

BucEyedPea
08-04-2008, 03:28 PM
what about the NEA?

Big part of the problem.

BucEyedPea
08-04-2008, 03:30 PM
It's not traditional enough.
I agree with you here.

There's not enough discipline. Let me rephrase that, actually. There's almost no discipline.
And here. Even at college level. Other profs where I've worked are excessively lenient. The one's that aren't get called authoritarian.

Teachers don't want to deal with a lot of hassle. They don't want to deal with all the crap from the kids or their parents.
They just give in.

jAZ
08-04-2008, 03:36 PM
poll to follow..

choices courtesy of the Seattle Times (http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/opinion/2004078970_hagopian18.html) .. :shake:

Ok, I was set to agree with you in outrage, until I followed your link and realized that it wasn't an actual Seattle Times online poll, but rather a rhetorical device used by a "guest columnist" with an agenda.

Shame on you for trying to ascribe that to the Times when you knew it was just a guest columnist.

jAZ
08-04-2008, 03:37 PM
Let's see Ron Paul win this online poll.

ROFL... Even if there is no such online poll, that's funny as hell.

SBK
08-04-2008, 04:00 PM
Ok, I was set to agree with you in outrage, until I followed your link and realized that it wasn't an actual Seattle Times online poll, but rather a rhetorical device used by a "guest columnist" with an agenda.

Shame on you for trying to ascribe that to the Times when you knew it was just a guest columnist.

jAZ in displaying a huge pair of balls.

jAZ
08-04-2008, 06:14 PM
jAZ in displaying a huge pair of balls.

I never understood why anyone would ever take that term to be a compliment.

Hydrae
08-04-2008, 07:02 PM
There's way too much focus on helping the lesser students get by than continuing to push and challenge the brighter students. Eventually the brighter students get bored and become complacent, while the lesser students continue getting pushed through, which results in supremely average students overall.

My son (going into 8th grade this year) is getting into a new program that the counsellor described to me a "special education for smart kids." The way it works is that they get a tracking teacher and access to tutors if it is needed. They do accelerated classes but get quite a bit of help and support from this system. We'll see how it goes but at this point it sounds like a great idea.

SBK
08-04-2008, 07:07 PM
I never understood why anyone would ever take that term to be a compliment.

It's not.LMAO

wazu
08-04-2008, 07:15 PM
To answer the original poll question: Nothing. My area's public schools are great. Lots of involved parents taking an active role in their children's education. Seems just fine to me. Is it not like this everywhere?

Programmer
08-04-2008, 07:36 PM
Why is public education failing in America?

On the grand scale it's not failing, it isn't as good as it could be and government involvement is not the answer.

Parents today cannot discipline their kids without having SRS involved. The school no longer mets out punishment for behavior that merits punishment. That too is against the law.

I think quite a few people would love to hear a fix for the situation. I think freedom to give discipline to students when it is due would be a great start.

In the 50's and 60's the teachers would handle the situation and then notify the parents of the problem. Most parents would continue the correction when the kids got home. The kids back then weren't perfect but had some kind of indication of what the rules were. Today we don't see that.

alanm
08-04-2008, 07:39 PM
You can only understand the plight of the blue collar working man if you in fact are a blue collar working man? Maybe we should nominate Larry the Cable Guy as POTUS instead of Obama or McCain.
Git er done.

2bikemike
08-04-2008, 08:32 PM
Wow terrible poll choices. There are several things fugged up with the system. And money is not one of them. IMHO Teachers unions are a part of the problem. Can't fire the worthless teachers and reward the good ones.

Parenting is crucial to a childs education. Parents should pay attention to what their kid are learning and if they are making the grade. If not its time to crack down on the kid. Take away the cell phone, Ipod or WII

I have had first hand experience with both private and public school for my daughter. The private school did so much more with much less money. The parents were all involved because they were shelling out the dough monthly for tuition.

***SPRAYER
08-04-2008, 08:51 PM
To answer the original poll question: Nothing. My area's public schools are great. Lots of involved parents taking an active role in their children's education. Seems just fine to me. Is it not like this everywhere?

I have no problem with the public schools in my town. My daughter graduates HS next year, and I've been actively involved, I'm also a proud member of the PTA.

jAZ
08-04-2008, 09:29 PM
It's not.LMAO

No kidding.

But it often is. I just don't get why anyone would welcome that comment.

SBK
08-04-2008, 10:55 PM
No kidding.

But it often is. I just don't get why anyone would welcome that comment.

I said that because it'd take a big set of balls to call someone out for doing the same thing you yourself have done for years.

jAZ
08-04-2008, 11:03 PM
I said that because it'd take a big set of balls to call someone out for doing the same thing you yourself have done for years.
It's like we are having 2 different conversations.

Tiger's Fan
08-04-2008, 11:26 PM
Parenting, as going to school is only part of a childs education.

tiptap
08-04-2008, 11:53 PM
When teachers are competing against entertainment systems like music, video and computer programs, it is hard to get students attention. This leads to the the lackadaisical take by students which leads to a lackadaisical approach by teachers. What would help in this area would be that EMPLOYERS of students actively seek and make decisions of hiring based upon teachers evaluation of students.

The result, avoiding abuses, would be that the value society has for teachers would be reflected in the value placed upon their evaluation. It would be a start for a feed back process. There are other suggestions that would enhance the hand-off between the educational experience and real life work. We see this already when students decide to go back and get education from community and technical colleges once the student realizes the value of advancing their understanding in the work place.

Ultra Peanut
08-05-2008, 12:18 AM
My son (going into 8th grade this year) is getting into a new program that the counsellor described to me a "special education for smart kids."We had that, and I should know since I'm a genius, but we didn't call it "special ed for smart kids" because that name's ****in' retarded!

Discuss Thrower
08-05-2008, 01:56 AM
Best answer is all of the above, and the nonexistent option of a generally negative attitude American society has on education, focused usually in the earliers. I'll elaborate when my computer decides to stop lagging out after I type 3 characters.

Ultra Peanut
08-05-2008, 02:01 AM
Best answer is all of the above, and the nonexistent option of a generally negative attitude American society has on education, focused usually in the earliers. I'll elaborate when my computer decides to stop lagging out after I type 3 characters.NO! IT'S THE GUBMINT, STUPID.

banyon
08-05-2008, 09:02 AM
We had that, and I should know since I'm a genius, but we didn't call it "special ed for smart kids" because that name's ****in' retarded!

Did you guys call it APEX?

Baby Lee
08-05-2008, 09:05 AM
Did you guys call it APEX?

'GATS' 4Mi.