View Full Version : Will the Chiefs defense be better this year...

Chiefs Pantalones
07-24-2001, 10:46 PM
or worse? Just curious?


dang BB!:mad:


Chiefs Pantalones
07-24-2001, 10:55 PM
I would have wrote more/put more thought and info in the topic if the BB wouldn't keep going down every 2 minutes!!!! So, sorry about the lack of creativity.

07-24-2001, 11:28 PM
For the most part I think the DEF will be better than last years. How much better is anybody's guess. Greg Robinson may not be considered a "great" DC but he is good and that is alot better than a "poor" DC in K.Chokenheiny. Cancerous players obviously had an effect on defensive production last year and KC has tried to rid themselves of those players with the exception of D.Williams. I really am curious to see if Williams attitude towards team effort improves with the loss of Chester McFatnugget, if it is evident that his attitude hasn't changed thru T.Camp I really don't think he will be a Chief for very much longer.

07-24-2001, 11:35 PM
They better be.
Here's an aside... I remember an article about midseason last year where Eric Hicks said he really liked playing next to Chester because they were able to play off each other and that translated into sacks for Eric. Although I think we may get more production out of Browning in that spot, do you think Chester's absence will diminish Eric's production?

07-24-2001, 11:57 PM
Okay.. I hate to be a dissenting voice here, but...

1) Chester - Never been a huge Chester fan, but he DID demand some double team (and I know someone will refute this). His sack count was never high and he had TERRIBLE games, but the last third of the season he played well.

2) DAN - Except for not practicing most weeks, I have no prob with Dan.. He played okay..

3) TOTAL - When we had Dan, Chester (playing decent), Eric, and Duane (perhaps the key), the DL played VERY well.....

JMO... Mark :)

07-25-2001, 12:31 AM
E.Hicks giving props to a former teamate, IMHO. E.Hicks has to have if not the quickest, 1 of the quickest releases in the NFL for a DE. Pull out 1 of last years game tapes with remote in hand, watch Hicks hands, 1 second they are pushing, shoving struggling to move an OT then the next is a quick release from his defender, partial side step with his feet then usually a lunge toward whoever has the ball. How many times have each 1 of us seen Hicks make a sack or tackle while sidestepping in the middle of the pocket just coming off of his man with no pressure coming from the DT's? Hicks production IMO may slip alittle in the begining of the year considering the youth at DT but I am sure he will adjust to that and use his hands and feet instead of someone else recieving a double team. Chester played well in my mind when he was off the field and on the sidelines, I hated seing every other 5th play with the DEF facing a 1st and 10 to a 1st and 5 or 2nd and 5 or 3rd and 5 to a 1st and 10 with all those damn encroachment penalties. Chester hurt us more than he helped us...that's why he isn't a Chief anymore. Dan simply needs to take the guts he had that made him want to holdout for a entire year and put that energy into the "Team". I am not saying that he wasn't justified for playing the way he did last year considering the swelling he faced almost everyday last year in his feet, I am just trying to say I would like to see Williams give as much effort during the season as he put into his holdout a few years back.

07-25-2001, 04:50 AM
While I'm not sure if GR is a good DC, I think he has to be an improvement over KS. If they can get this defense to gel, trust each other, and just do thier job...I think they will be fine. The loss of Hasty will hurt, IMO, but I think that if Bartee and Dennis are given the chance and not protected by dropping linebackers, they can be adequate CB's. I do not want to see Crockett starting, but homerism from Robinson may put him out there.

07-25-2001, 06:26 AM
The coaching will be orders of magnitude beyond last season. Words cannot convey my utter disgust and disdain for the Spineless Jellyfish Stooge and his stinkin' soft zone. You will just have to picture me, red-faced with veins distended in my neck, emitting an inarticulate howl of pure rage.

Well, you get the point.

On the other hand, I fear that we lack the DTs and CBs to make an aggressive, attacking Defense the dominant force it can be. The Crockett signing still mystifies me. As I recall, we used him mercilessly the last couple of seasons. The Denver secondary was the weakest link on the team and we imported him to the R&G. And I have no faith whatsoever in Williams. I think he should have been fired along with McGlockton.

In short [yeah, Gaz, as if] our Defense will be better, but we will give up lots of big plays because we lack the DT and CB to implement Robinson's blitz-happy D. We will not see the CBs playing 15 yards off the receivers and we will not see noodle-armed QBs dinkdunk down the field.

No Schottenheimer.

Yeah, I can live with that.

Breathing deep.

07-25-2001, 07:01 AM
I agree with GAZ. Our coaching change will make it better in the long run. For this year it is still a question. I order to play a gambling/pressure defense you need good aggressive corners and strong push up the middle. I am not certain we have the corners at this point and our tackles have good potential but seem injury prone. This is not really an answer to the question though.

I will say we will be about the same in production as last year but better off for the future.

07-25-2001, 07:37 AM
The one thing to consider is that in most powerful offensive teams, the defense seems better than it is. The offense puts pressure on another team's offensive game plan, dicates what they have to do to keep up and score points. The SB/Rams were a good example of this. Statistically I see little improvement this year, but an offense that can score points and remain on the field for more than 4 plays, and a punter that can control the field position game will make the difference in W/L

07-25-2001, 08:17 AM

Is Vermeil a cornerback?? Can Robinson rush the passer??

The Chiefs defense is going to suck this year. There is little depth at most positions. Besides Edwards and Hicks, its a no-name defense. Now the good side is that they should improve as the year goes on and MAYBE they will be good next year or the year after.

Coaching alone will not replace the contributions that Hasty and Chester made last year. No, those guys werent stars by any means, but they are certainly better than what the Chiefs have to replace them with.

07-25-2001, 08:23 AM
Dictating what the other team does...that was something that was not in the Gunther lexicon. Some games I wondered if he realized there was an opponent on the other side as it appeared he and his staff were oblivious to what the other team did and did not adjust accordingly.

Our CB's are a big question mark and we'll know a little better what we have in a couple more weeks.

KC's biggest achilles heel over the last few years has been giving up big plays on 3rd and long. If the new staff can find a way to shut a team down on 3 and 10+ yds, they're already ahead of the game.

07-25-2001, 08:23 AM
That is a good point Oxford. The same applied to the Broncos under Elway. We heard various statmongers singing the praises of the Bronco D, when it was the Bronco O [specifically the fortuitous synergy of Elway and Davis] that made them look better than they were.

Therein lies the heart of my unease concerning Robinson. I like his blitz-happy 'tude, but I wonder if he is a good as his record or if that record is seriously skewed by Elway Davis.

I believe that we will have a more balanced, attacking Offense this season [it would be almost impossible not to do so, IMO]. But will that actually provide early leads so that we can tee off on the Enemy QB?

I remain skeptical of our Defense until I see Williams earn even a fraction of his bloated salary. And I remain concerned as long as I see Crockett starting in the secondary.

Still, at the worst, our Defense will be better next season, when we add some better players on the DL. I also eagerly await the day when we move Dennis and Bartee into the starting CB positions and let them play some man coverage.

Hopeful, but not confident.

Lightning Rod
07-25-2001, 08:41 AM
One cannot coach speed or height. A smart coaching staff molds their style of play around the strengths of the players they have. Not so smart coaching staffs (see the stooges) attempt to pound the square peg in the round hole.

07-25-2001, 08:53 AM

Just curious but how is it that you choose the Chiefs and this board to catigate. Or do you have time to visit every team and hammer away?

07-25-2001, 09:03 AM

Just curious but how is it that you choose the Chiefs and this board to catigate. Or do you have time to visit every team and hammer away?

everyone's mom
07-25-2001, 09:14 AM
Pack fan

Heard of Greg Wesley? Jerome Woods? Duane Clemons?
Christ, not superstars(wesley will be), but not chumps. Our rookies are one year smarter...

Unlike you. Do your a##-lips move when you speak, or does your voice just leak out like a fart?

07-25-2001, 10:04 AM
The defense is rebuilding right now. Hopefully the Chiefs can rebuild the defense through the draft in the future. I beleive it will ultimately workout because the team has always managed to find solid defensive players in the later rounds of the draft.

07-25-2001, 10:25 AM
Classy post Everyone's Mom.

At the risk of agreeing with Packfan, I think Robinson's aggressive D will be our undoing this year. We simply don't have the bullets to make it work.

Without Chester, Hicks/Clemmons will face double teams all game long. The opposition has no reason to respect our middle until Williams and Browning prove otherwise. FWIW, I'm counting on nothing from Williams till he shows <b>something</b> and I'm guarded that Browning's injury free season last year was the rule and not the exception. I also think the inside running game will destroy us since we did absolutely nothing in the draft or offseason to address it.

Our CB's will get spanked early and often and for three reasons. 1. As teams run at will up our middle the safety's will cheat up, making us suceptable to deep routes. 2. Even though they have a year under their belt Dennis/Bartee are still young and inexperienced. Robinson's blitzs will leave them all alone. 3. Bronco nepotisim will ensure that Crockett starts and that will ensure lots o yards for the opposition.

I think we made a huge mistake in signing Robinson over Rhodes and I think it's one that will hold back an otherwise promising team.

07-25-2001, 10:40 AM
The defense is the key to our season, IMHO.

On the plus-side: Anyone would be better than Kurt and Willie. I am not sure just how much better Robinson will prove to be, though. I also wanted Ray Rhodes in a big way, but we let him get away. I expect he'll make a huge difference to the Denver D. So what does that say about GR?!?!? :confused:

Also, we got rid of Chet and Hasty. This had to be done for salary cap reasons. I don't see our D-line suffering with the loss of Chet, but I do think we'll miss Hasty a bit, especially if "Mighty Rat" Crockett starts.

On the negative side: No significant player additions have been made, except Belser for depth at S. We might be luckier with injuries this year (Hicks, Clemons, Williams and Warfield all suffered last season). Also, the CBs are a year older, and Bush will hopefully rebound. But all of this brings hope not confidence, so who knows how it's going to turn out. We are terribly lacking in depth at DT. You know it's bad when the coaching staff starts talking up Steve Martin ;). A lot will depend on Downing and Sands in TC.

If Dan Williams and John Browning stay healthy and play well in the middle, and the young corners can play man coverage I think our LBs will make a lot of plays and our D could be good. But there are too many ifs right now.

07-25-2001, 12:18 PM
Nice analysis CK. Agree on every point. Others too have raised some good ones. Our coaching is better, I think, but they are not the players. So at this point, I don't think we will be any better, and may have to overachieve to be as good. Offense this year, and defense next year, the master plan.

07-25-2001, 02:11 PM
kc red & ck,

Excellent posts. Even though i think the defense will suck this year, I think the Chiefs did the right thing by getting rid of the malcontents (chester, Hasty). Only one more to go: Dan williams. Let the young guys play and learn!

The Chiefs should be able to score some points, if Green gets and stays healthy. But not enough points to make up for a sh!tty defense. Also, the special teams is a mess. I am not nearly as optimistic with the punting game as some of you are. The optimism around here was similar this time last year with Sauerbrun. Punters are important and can help the defense immensely. 35 year old punters left out there for free usually dont make a difference. The last good punter acquired via free agency was Craig Hentrich.

Chiefs Pantalones
07-25-2001, 08:55 PM
Good thoughts, everyone.


is hoping for the best

Skip Towne
07-25-2001, 10:29 PM
Hey - Packfan - I have been watching your posts now for about three months. I have noticed that your responses are always negative in nature. Although I am better known on this board as "The Satellite Guy", my degree is in Psychology/ with a social sciences minor. I would like to ask you why you post on this site while you have so much hostility toward it? Do you feel a need for attention which you obviously get by ruffling the feathers of the members of this board? Are your feelings of inadequacy manifested in your obsessive ventings on these otherwise unseen people? If so, please feel free to contact me for free counseling at 1 800 EAT ****.

07-26-2001, 06:31 AM
Ken,only one more to go: Dan Williams What about Ray Crockett and Lew Bush??? Methinks you're slipping (or are you just cutting us some slack today) :p

I don't know why you think STs are a mess. We have had a real mess on STs here for the last few years, with Stoyo, Aguiar/Sauerbrun and Lockett/Cloud/Parker.....Vanover was sh!te the year or two before that for coverage/blocking reasons (not to mention he was probably high ;)).......and Mike Stooge overseeing the whole deal. STs have been overhauled this offseason. New coach (although jq doesn't regard Gansz very highly, and was right about Willie Shaw).....one of the league's best KRs (Horne)........some new PR candidates (Blaylock, Moses etc.)......place-kicking competition.......a new punter who is only one year older than he was when he allowed the fewest (?) return yards in the league...........and several new bodies for ST coverage. IMO, more significant additions have been made to ST than on O or D, and I expect the improvements will be obvious immediately.

07-26-2001, 06:51 AM
While I tend to agree with CK's assessment, Im reminded of KC's D last year which would be quasi-passive. Passive in the Secondary/LB's and overly agressive on the line. That didnt work either.

KC CB's were spanked early and often last year as a result of playing off the reciever and KC was VERY susceptible in the middle of the D between the secondary and the line because the LB's were back in zone as well while the DL was racing up field most times past the QB and out of the play.

So if agressive wont work now and passive didnt work then, what will work?

07-26-2001, 07:10 AM

Crocket and Bush arent malcontents. One is over the hill (crocket) the other sucks (bush). A "malcontent" in my definition, is a player who is more concerned with himself than the team, complains, takes downs off, gets in trouble with the law, or doesnt play through injuries. Williams is all of the above.
Special teams was a mess last year and has been for some time. My point is that you dont find many punters via free agency. The good ones stay where they are, generally. The Chiefs ought to scout and draft one in the 6th or 7th round. It would sure save some money against the cap. Stryzinski got a million dollar signing bonus! Sauerbrun got a nice bonus last year too. Its obvsious that Carl doesnt know his head from his a ss when it comes to this position (among others too)!


Instead of wasting time wondering what I am doing here, why not take that degree in physch and do something with it??

this is a football board, not a place to analyze human behavior.

07-26-2001, 07:11 AM
He'll accuse you of not " knowing" football...

07-26-2001, 07:15 AM
Steivy Ray,

I wont say anything about his football knowledge until he says something stupid ie "the Chiefs fans are the most loyal in the NFL..." or "Bam Morris is better than any runningback the Packers have...." or "Gun is going to have this team in the Super Bowl within two years..."

All Quotes that I have seen on this board in the last two years.

07-26-2001, 07:30 AM
Tell me, Kent, is it the responsibility of a fan to be knowledgable? Is a stat geek more informed than you? Informed? More like an opinion. Just because Grandma can't list off all the players, does that make her LESS of a fan?

Following the Chiefs makes us homers? Why? Because you wouldn't know what to do if you couldn't complain. You're biased, and negative. This "toothless, beer belly" fan could take your *** out on a open field.

07-26-2001, 07:39 AM
Skip ~ if you are unfamiliar with the term, this BB uses the term Troll. A troll is a poster that purposely makes negative posts to rile the fans of the Chiefs and this BB. Although some posts from trolls may have valid comments, statistics, etc., the majority of them is to get under your skin. I.E. Packfan = Troll

A troll is the grumpy old man down the street that will take your ball if it goes into his yard.

Don't get me wrong, not all fans of other teams that post on this board are trolls (I.E. Mile High Mania)

Packfan just posts here either because:
a) He's a Troll or
b) The Pack doesn't have a fan base proud enough/smart enough to run a BB dedicated to their team

As in the subject line, the best to do is to ignore all Trolls comments, as they are intended to get you fired up.

my .02

07-26-2001, 07:54 AM
Steivy Ray,

Why cant you just talk football? Your last post, you mention your grandma, beer belly, toothless, stat geeks, ect. What the hell is that??

This is a F O O T B A L L bulletin board! Save the other sh t for Titus and Luzap.

07-26-2001, 08:06 AM
Whatsamatta Kan't, strike a nerve? Answer the questions.

beer belly and toothless are adjectives YOU used to describe Chief fans...I'm sure everyone else REMEMBERS.

07-26-2001, 08:23 AM
I call it like I see it Stevey. The pictures of some of you guys and what I see at Arrowhead are a bunch of bald guys, with big bellys, and f cked up teeth. Of the ones that arent balded, some have mullet cuts. That doesnt mean everyone has that. But I do see a lot of that. But who cares? Dont be insecure about your looks! Especially on here.

07-26-2001, 12:34 PM
While Stevie and Ken engage in 'my dad's bigger than your dad' I'll attempt to turn this thread back to the subject.

KCTitus, what we had last year was a classic case of worst of both worlds. We had a secondary and LB's playing zone while the Line played 'blitz'. That never had a chance of working. If the line is to play blitz, the LB's and DB's also have to play blitz and man to man. If one plays zone the others have to play read and react. Zone blitz is a special case which is what I think Kurt was aiming for, but he missed the mark.

Considering the talent we have on D I think our best bet would be some form of zone and read and react. This pains me to write since I love head hunting LB's and safeties, bumping CB's and assasin Dlinemen but I don't think we have the horses.

07-26-2001, 01:27 PM

I agree. Over the last ten years or so, the Chiefs have been blitz happy. Thats all well and good, but you expose your corners when you do that. It worked in the past because of guys like Derrick Thomas getting to the QB and Dale Carter holding his own on the corner. Its hard to do the same thing with names like Bush, Martin, and Browning rushing the QB and Bartee and Dennis trying to cover.

07-26-2001, 02:05 PM
I think our D will be better for the mere fact that the new coaching staff will do a better job then last years. The players will be more organized and Robinson will call a better game then Kurt S. did. I'm hoping that our young CBs will benifit from the playing time they got last year as well as having a full offseason to prepare for the games. We'll be better!


07-26-2001, 02:28 PM
The one thing that will improve (hopefully) is nuetral zone infractions. The main culprit (Chester) is gone. Maybe the coaches will emphasize dicipline to the defensive linemen. Nothing hurts a defense more than first down and five. Chester gave the opposition many of them the last few years.

07-26-2001, 02:37 PM
I am impressed, I have actually read one of your posts and felt that it didn't make me dumber! Sorry bout that slam.....but when you talk football and not smack you can be an alright guy. I look forward to reading more KNOWLEDGABLE posts from you as apposed to the usual ignorant drivel.... Sorry about the derogatory comments on my end Packfan....but if you continue to post like this I wouldn't be apposed to you posting here.

07-26-2001, 02:38 PM
Funny thing about Chester. When he was with the Raiders they weren't very good. When he came to KC they Raiders got better and the Chiefs D got worse. Hmmmmm! Let's hope it works the same way this time. We get better and the Broncos get worse.
how loud will the jeers at Arrowhead be when Chet gives us a complementary 1st down because he can't hold his water and jumps off sides on 3rd and 4. Chesssss-sterrrrrrr and everybody LOL at him. Should be a real gas.

PhilFree :cool:

07-26-2001, 04:17 PM
Sorry to burst your bubble, but there are people who look like that everywhere Kant, just not KC. As far as the defense goes, it is obvious that it doesn't matter WHO they put in there, Kant will find someone who is subpar. The league is pretty weak right now, in almost all positions. The bar for performance keeps getting raised, while the quality of players is diminishing. Crockett is a good example. How many great corners out there? His value is experience, nothing more.

Greg Robinson's defenses performed in the SB years. Broncos go 11-5, lose in the playoffs and POOF..It's GR's fault. The only way to win in this league is to have all THREE phases in sync at the same time, week in, week out. Or at least close enough to carry one another. As much as the coaching was blamed, this defense should rock. Last year's defense shut down the 'can't make a mistake on offense donkeys'

Crying about the cost of Green and Vermiel on the eve of training camp is a moot point. Gee, let's cry about it all year long. It's a done deal. Whining about all throughout the season is nothing more than a downer. For everyone. Unless of course that is your objective.


07-26-2001, 06:50 PM

We will have three defenders who deserve to go to the Pro-Bowl this season in Hicks, Edwards, and Wesley. We have 3 or 4 who are better than average in Clemons, Browning, Woods, and Patton/Maz. And we have 2 corners in Bartee and Dennis that were allowed to PLAY in one game last season. That was against the Bronco's at Arrowhead, and they did one hell of a job of shutting down the WR's from the Bronco's. We were 3rd (heard this on NFL Yearbook) in the league in sacks last season. No reason to think we won't repeat this performance this year with stronger run support due to the safties playing closer to the line (DV has already said this move will be made). Bartee and Dennis are atheletes. That is why Gun drafted them. As they did in the Denver game, they WILL hold thier own!!!

Talent alone, we will be better!

Zebedee DuBois
07-26-2001, 06:57 PM
I can't make the call. I am a little worried about the DBs, 'cause I think Crockett is a step down from Hasty. Chester had some positive value during plays, but negated much of that value by giving the other team 1st&5s. - so I think that is an area of improvement. The Chiefs, for the most part, have had trouble stopping the run in recent years and I don't know that we did anything to improve that. So on the paper in my head, we have not made any marked improvement over last year. My great hope is that the improvement in coaching will provide the positive difference we want to see.

keg in kc
07-26-2001, 11:07 PM
Tough question, Cody, and almost every answer so far, good and bad, could be true. I'll throw my hat into the ring just for kicks.

Here's my pre TC position-by-position analysis:

Defensive Line

Defensive End

This is clearly the strength of the defense, maybe the strongest single position on the entire squad (either side of the ball). Eric Hicks is quckly developing into a stud, solid against the run and the pass, and if Duane Clemons can completely overcome his hip problems of a year ago, they could be one of the best duos of ends in the entire NFL, possibly for years to come. The addition of Rich Owens gives us solid, skilled and veteran depth, a key given the injuries that both Hicks and Clemons suffered a year ago. I believe fourth round draft pick Monty Beisel will have a roster spot and see some spot playing time in 2001.

Prediction: Hicks and Clemons will stay healthy and together record 25-30 sacks in 2001.

Defensive Tackle

The defensive tackle position is an obvious question-mark, where Kansas City would appear to have a number of players, but no clear dominating talent. The departure of underachieving Chester McGlockton will be felt on the field in three to four late-season games, but the removal of his cancerous presence from the locker room and sideline will be a benefit from the first snap of training camp until the last snap of the season. Dan Williams, if healthy and focused (a big "if"), could return to his 1997 form in the Robinson system, a system which will probably cycle all 6 rostered defensive tackles throughout the game in something which might be termed "defensive tackle by committee." Another name of note will be John Browning, who performed admirably last season as a back-up in all 4 line positions. The addition of Owens (DE) to the roster allows Browning to concentrate exclusively on playing the defensive tackle position, and he will most likely begin the year as starter at the left tackle position. Steve Martin will be the top backup and 3rd -round draft pick Eric Downing is expected to be the 4th player in the rotation. The remaining two spots are up for grabs during training camp, with heated competition between Nate Hobgood-Chittick, Norris McCleary, mammoth 7th-round draft pick Terdell Sands, Thomas Washington and Tyrone Williams.

Prediction: We'll see some early struggles at the defensive tackle position, but it will be a solid unit by midseason, not a weakness.


The paramount question regarding the linebackers may simply be "who are the starters?" Donnie Edwards will be the obvious weak side starter, but there will be strong competition in the middle between solid vet Marvcus Patton and emerging talent Mike Maslowski. Lew Bush is said to be in top shape and ready to play, unlike 2000, but obvious questions abound about Bush at the strong side position. Ex-Bronco Glenn Cadrez was signed and is expected to backup Bush, if not compete for the starting position, as well as long-snap and provide depth at all three linebacker positions. Other backup positions will be filled during training camp by converted safety Larry Atkins, ex-Lion Richard Jordan, Andre O'Neal, undrafted rookie Wes Robertson (Rutgers), Gary Stills or Casey Tisdale.

Prediction: Donnie Edwards will not be misused or out of position this season, and I believe Lew Bush will be the most-improved player on the Chiefs defense in 2001.



To call the cornerback position a "questionable" one might be the understatement of the new millennium. James Hasty is gone and most-likely retired, and the aging Ray Crockett has been brought in, apparently to replace him in the interim. Second year players William Bartee and Pat Dennis, as well as fourth-year man Eric Warfield, will compete for the spot opposite Crockett. Other players in the mix include ex-Ram Taje Allen, undrafted rookie Dyshod Carter (Kansas State), ex-Saint Corey Harris and ex-Titan George McCollough.. While youth, talent and potential seem to abound, there is a clear lack of experience at the cornerback position. Hopefully Crockett can tutor and help further the development of our young corners, but this position could be rough around the edges as often as not in 2001.

Predictions: Ray Crockett will be supplanted by William Bartee early in the year, if not by the end of training camp. Strong defensive line play will help the secondary, as will the deceptive nature of the defense.


The safety position is one of the strongest positions on the squad behind starters Greg Wesley and Jerome Woods, while veterans Jason Belser and Bracey Walker providing more-than-adequate depth.

Prediction: Greg Wesley will avoid the "sophmore slump" and Jerome Woods will have a strong year as, despite the questions at CB, he'll spend less time in a prevent-like mode in order to counter rookie secondary play, which was the case for most of 2000. Either player (or both) could show up in Hawaii next February, although anyone from KC making the Pro Bowl is a long shot with a dearth of nationally-televised games on the 2001 schedule.

And here's my overall prediction for the performance of the 2001 KC Chiefs defense:

The 2001 defense could show marked improvement over the 2000 units:

1) In my opinion, you cannot downplay the importance of special teams when discussing the defense. An improved special teams unit will only help the defense, and I believe the addition of punter Dan Stryzinski and kick returner Tony Horne will have a clear impact. Furthermore, I believe the offseason addition of speed and athleticism to nearly every position on the roster will further improve the overall play of the special teams unit. The only remaining question that I have is the punt return position, but all-in-all, I think we'll see a good special teams unit in 2001, and that will help the defense more than most imagine (especially the addition of Stryzinski).

2) The other key I see for the performance of the defense will be the success of the offense, not only in terms of yardage and scoring, but balance as well. The 2000 offense simply killed the defense, in my opinion, and we must see some re-emergence of the running game, as well as more time controlling the ball. I believe Al Saunders will do just that, and I believe the result will be more scoring, less three-and-outs, and, in conjunction with the punting of Stryzinski, better starting field position for our defense.

I believe the personnel we have on the defensive side of the ball are good. We are not dominating, certainly not the Ravens or the Titans, but I believe we do have enough quality on defense to compete with any team on our schedule, if, and only if, the defense is not continually put at a disadvantage by the offense and the special teams. I see that as one of the main downfalls of the 2000 unit, along with the system/playcalling of Kurt Schottenheimer and Willie Shaw. I believe we can and will be successful with Greg Robinson and his system and I believe we'll be pleasantly surprised by the 2001 defense (fingers crossed).

Chiefs Pantalones
07-26-2001, 11:20 PM
As usual, Kyle, good post.


I agree with your thoughts on the D

07-27-2001, 07:33 AM

That pretty optimistic, 25-30 sacks for the Chiefs defensive ends?? Hicks and Clemons arent exactly Gastenau and Klecko.

I dont see how the Chiefs defense can be any better. Think about whats happened to them the past two years:

1. Losing Thomas
2. Trading a 2nd round pick for underachieving Chester
3. Signing Lew Bush
4. Signing Carlton Gray
5. Not using any high draft picks on defense
6. Cutting their best cornerback (Hasty)
7. Replacing Hasty with Ray Crocket????!

While I truly believe that the team has done the right thing by letting the malcontents go, I just dont see how it has gotten any better in the short term. Plus, it hasnt invested any high draft picks in defensive players for a few years. Who was the last first round pick? Jerome Woods??

This is a defense that teams will be able to go right through. It will be a tough learning experience for the young players next year. I think you will again see why the 1-15 Chargers didnt need Lew Bush. Forget about him. He sucks.

This could be a very long season for the Chiefs defense.

07-27-2001, 08:04 AM
Nice analysis, Kyle. It gave the Engineer pause for thought [although he thinks you are "over the top" optimistic about the DTs].

Eager to find out.

07-27-2001, 09:44 AM
Very nice post Kyle. I like how you think...optimistically. I don't see how Ken can even watch a game. I'd be too depressed.

Ken, I agree that all of what you stated is correct. But dude that was in the past. We have new management. DV will not let CP call all the shots on personnel. You have no FAITH. Call it homerism, but we're starting a new season. No faith=no fun.

Back to defense.

How would Patton work as a strong side backer? I really like how Maz performs on the field. Like a blood hound. I would like to see him as middle backer. Every time he's on the field, he makes plays.


07-27-2001, 09:44 AM
Very nice post Kyle. I like how you think...optimistically. I don't see how Ken can even watch a game. I'd be too depressed.

Ken, I agree that all of what you stated is correct. But dude that was in the past. We have new management. DV will not let CP call all the shots on personnel. You have no FAITH. Call it homerism, but we're starting a new season. No faith=no fun.

Back to defense.

How would Patton work as a strong side backer? I really like how Maz performs on the field. Like a blood hound. I would like to see him as middle backer. Every time he's on the field, he makes plays.


07-27-2001, 10:07 AM
Before Patton signed with the Chiefs, he had played the weakside and strongside backer positions with the Bills and Redskins.
He was converted to MLB by the Chiefs, and has stated that is his preferred position.
There are many here that say that Patton has lost a step, which is true, but I believe that he is still quicker than Bush, and that a LB corps of Edwards and Patton on the outside, with Maz in the middle would not only be our best group, but would form quite a formidable trio.
Most would disagree with me, however, and I don't believe we'll ever be given the chance to find out.

As for our CBs, I have stated my belief that Bartee and Dennis can handle the job more than adequately, and that Warfield should be the nickel back.
The only time that Crockett should see the field is in a dime package.
Unfortunately, Robinson's familiarity with Crockett is going to be the determining factor, and it will take at least 6-8 games of mediocre performance by Crockett before any change might be considered, if at all.

Still, as they say, the games are won in the trenches. For the defense to have any real chance to succeed there must be a number of questions with positive answers.
Can Dan Williams stay healthy and playat the level he achieved in '97?
Can John Browning stay healthy and step it up another level?
Is there enough quality depth DT with Martin, Downing, McCleary, et al?
Health and depth are question marks at DE as well.

A lot of things have to fall in place for the defense to achieve any level of success.

I'm hoping a couple of things do fall into place, to give us a foundation to build on.

07-27-2001, 10:11 AM

25-30 sacks for Hicks and Clemons is not unrealistic if they are healthy. They combined for 21.5 last season and missed at least 8 games combined last season. There goes a quarter of their production!

keg in kc
07-27-2001, 04:08 PM
Hicks had 14 sacks in 13 games (only 11 starts). If healthy for 16 games, that would project out to 17. Clemons had 7.5 in 12 games - he stays healthy and that comes out to 10 for the season (he had 9 in 1999 for the Vikes). That adds up to 27 sacks between the two of them. Honestly I'm more worried about them staying healthy than I am about how many sacks they'll get - they're very good ends, and if they're on the field, the sacks will come in droves. I believe our ends are that good.

Something else that could be key is the fact that Clemons may be feeling some heat from Rich Owens - two are competing for the starting right end position during training camp according to an interview with Vermeil today. Owens has both an 8.5 sack season and an 11.0 sack season behind him, so he might be a wild card. I like the fact that guys will have to earn their jobs in camp - and I think every position on the defense will be like that. Competition is another factor that I think will improve the team.

As for the tackles, well, Dan Williams, as bad as he seemed last season, had 7.5 sacks in 12 games/10 starts. Big fat chet, in comparison, had 4.5 sacks in 15 games, and has pretty much done zip for any team's defense since 1996 in my estimation. Watching the games, I'll say that I did not see him drawing double teams very often last year, as he did in the (distant) past, and, in conjunction with his attitude and utter lack of a work ethic, I really see this as an instance of "addition by subtraction". Browning, although he may be undersized (I'm mixed about that) is a hard worker, Martin is a hard worker, and I think Williams knows it's "put up or shut up" time, and I think we'll see him leaving it all on the field. There's no free passes for anyone this year, and I believe we have a number of NFL calibre tackles on the roster, just no single superstar. In other words, I believe we have sufficient depth that a rotation will work for us. That doesn't mean I wouldn't love to have a Warren Sapp in the middle, but I really think we can work with what we have. I think we'll have a line anchored by 4 or 5 hard-working guys who'll give it their all on every single down. Call it a "gut feeling" if you want, but I think we'll be okay at tackle. Not spectacular, just okay...

Keep in mind I'm predicting we'll be better than last season on defense, but we need to keep some perspective on just what, exactly, that means. In 2000, our defense was awful, especially by KC standards: We gave up 5559 yards, nearly 350 yards per game.
We gave up 1822 yards rushing, about 114 yards per game at a clip of 4.1 yards per carry.
Opposing QBs had a 65% completion percentage and threw for 3737 yards against us, almost 235 yards per game..
We gave up 38 touchdowns, 13 rushing and 25 passing.
Oppenents converted 41% of the time on 3rd down, and 73% of the time on 4th down.
Oppenents converted around 50% of the time in the red zone.
The defense gave up over 20 points per game.
The only positive stat I can see from 2000 is the sack total (51). We didn't force turnovers and we simply couldn't stop anyone.

I'm saying we'll improve from that. I'm not saying we're going to necessarily be a top 10 defense. For that to happen, we're going to need some spectacular play from unexpected folks, and I'm not going so far as to to predict that. But I do think we'll be improved, and hopefully noticably so. We were ranked somewhere in the neighborhood of 18th in the league in defense last season, and I think we'll end up in the 12th to 15th range this year, but the real improvement will be things that might not necessarily be reflected in any single stat. I think we'll force more turnovers, and I think we'll be a little better against the run. While I don't think Donnie Edwards is one of the top LBs in the league (no homervision there - I think he's good, but not quite that good), I think he'll be in a position to make a lot more plays and do some good things in this system. I also think we'll get burned a few times. It's going to happen, just like it'll happen to each and every other team in the league. I can deal with that, especially if I see 11 guys going hard on every down all season long. That may be the biggest thing that burned me last season, but, then again, I think the biggest reason for that is now sucking down donuts in Denver.

07-27-2001, 05:13 PM
The strategy for the 2001 Chiefs defense is simple: Get up by 2 TDs early and go for the QB. It is a huge gamble predicated on the Chiefs fielding a Broncos/Colts/Rams type offense, which is ambitious, but not within reach.
The Chiefs' strength IMO is power (especially the two Tonys), and that power should be brought to bear in moving the chains and dominating TOP. Unfortunately, the defense assembled on paper will not be a substantial improvement over last year's, although it will please most (of you) fans who will take a D that gives up the big play as opposed to a D that is dinked to death. Grass is always greener, etc...

When the Chiefs get up by 14-17 in the first half, Robinson will look like a genius. When the game is close at the end, it will be a nail-biter. If the Chiefs settle on a personnel group early in the season and stay with it, they could develop into a strong unit, although not a SB unit. This D will go exactly as far as this offense will take it.

Just look at where KC invested its picks/$ cap

keg in kc
07-27-2001, 06:22 PM
I agree with your point, John, but not with your reasoning behind it.

KCJ: Just look at where KC invested its picks/$ cap

Offensive picks:
3b: Minnis, WR
4b: Layne, FB
5a: Baber: TE
5b: Blaylock, RB
6: Sulfsted, OG

Defensive picks:
3a: Downing, DT
4a: Beisel, DE
7a: Harts, S
7b: Sands, DT

So, all-in-all, one less player on the "d" side was taken including 3 defensive linemen, two of them tackles. I don't see that as being indicative of an overly "offensive-minded" draft.

As for the cap dollars spent (on non-rookies) this season:

Players retained:

4 defensive- CB Warfield, DE Clemons, DT Ransom, LB Maslowski
2 offensive - OG Shields, TE Dunn.

Players signed: 8 defensive - P Stryzinski, CB Crockett, DE Owens, CB Allen, S Belser, DT Hobgood-Chittick, CB Harris
8 offensive - C Wiegmann, WR Thomas, QB Brister, WR Horne, QB Green, RB Holmes, OG Allotey, WR Mayes

So that's virtually neck-and-neck as well. No clear indication of affection for the offense.

And finally, as I set forth in a prior thread (http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?threadid=17671), the team's salary is broken up, roughly, into 3 categories:

1) Offense: 40%
2) Defense: 32%
3) Dead Money: 28% (the majority of this coming from the salaries of DT McGlockton and CB Hasty)

By the way, the cap money is reflective of the team built before Vermeil arrived, and not necessarily indicative of his own "touch" on the team. Also, don't forget the fact that overall, offensive skill players are simply more expensive...

So, looking at all of that, I don't really see any evidence in our "picks/cap $" that we're doing anything other than trying to improve on both sides of the ball. We may not like the names of the players we've picked-up, but the fact remains that the effort has been made, and not just on the offense.

That said, I agree that the success of the defense will certainly be at least partly attributable to the success of the offense, just as with every single other team in the league. And special teams play will also be important to the overall success of the team.

Still, however, a defense must play well, or all the scoring in the world won't help, especially if we have any playoff aspirations in the future. Actually, the truth of the matter is this: you must be firing on all cylindars to be successful in the postseason, offense, defense and special teams.

Then again, I think talking about the playoffs right now is premature at best. I feel we're a year away at the best.

07-28-2001, 10:04 AM
I hate to nit-pick Keg, but lets take a closer look at those draft picks.

Downing and Minnis are both wasted picks so I'll toss them out. Beisel is undersized and will need gym rat time, ala Hicks, so I'll toss him out. That means the first serious defensive pick we had was Harts in the 7th. And this was from a team that fielded an awful (your word not mine) defense in 2k. And this was also in a draft that was the deepest in memory for DT's.

That simply means the braintrust either didn't take our defensive woes seriously, they were too offensive minded to care, or they simply weren't paying attention.

Our defense will clearly be the anchor that drags this team down. And will continue to be until serious picks are made to improve it.

07-28-2001, 10:19 AM
I'm so glad that you are here to provide us with your scouting report, and are so certain that these picks are going to be complete failures.
That way I don't have to waste any time or energy hoping that we might possibly have picked up a gem that everyone else passed up.
The Chiefs have never done that, so why do I always waste my energy with this never fulfilled hope, anyway.
I imagine, since you have watched these guys play so much, and know so much about these guys, we probably shoud just cut all of them before they waste any valuable time in camp.

07-28-2001, 11:03 AM
picked up a gem that everyone else passed up.

I hate to go against the group think, but this isn't something we're noted for. I'll give you Wesley and Edwards (although I think Edwards is a little over rated). Now, name me another on defense.

Were you aware that of all the guys drafted in the '98 draft only one still remains on the roster? (Vic Riley our #1)

We've consistently underachieved in our drafts and IMO this year was another example. We desperately needed a run stuffing DT. We got Downing. A kid from a major program that contributed almost nothing to it. This was while proven run stoppers were on the board.

Minnis is too small to beat man on man and too slow to run past it. We clearly needed a speed WR or a WR with the size to beat coverage. We got neither.

I hope I'm wrong Milkman and that these guys pan out, but we clearly could've done better.

07-28-2001, 11:58 AM
I am not as concerned about our defense as most. I think that we are actually going to be fine on the Defensive line unless injuries kill us. We do lack depth.

The new defense should help play to the strengths of our line and linebackers, but will lead to occasionally getting toasted, because of its high propensity for risk, at least once or twice a game. As long as the new offense fires up quickly that should be offset. The Stram Chiefs had this same exact propensity but most are too young to remember.

With the new defense our linebackers should actually shine and by the end of the season they will be getting the recognition that the Denver linebackers have received.

Safety is our strength so no comment needed.
Facing facts our CB situation is the most worrisome, Crockett to me was not a good pickup but I am hoping I will be surprised (note: I felt the same way about Hasty when he first arrived and was clearly wrong, anyone else out there?). I still hope the young guys will come around but they have to be given a shot. The thing that concerns me the most about Robinson at Def Coordinator is that I feel he is like Marty was, someone who is uncomfortable with first and second year players.

I know Keg feels that Downing may make the team but I still think he was a wasted draft pick, we will see (I hope Keg is right).

As far as the rest of the defensive picks I am pretty sure they are cannon fodder for training camp, and still believe that unless it is because of special teams they are unlike to make the team. My guess is that Beisel will may make the team as a special teams player but will not contribute otherwise, again I hope I am wrong.

So I believe the defense will be better than last seasons, it will be immensely fun to watch. Those who do not remember the gambling high risk defenses of the Stram years are in for a treat. They are also in for some frustration because when you gamble sometimes you lose big. In fact despite last years high number of sacks I believe an even higher number is possible with these players and this defense. Turnover recoveries should be at least as high but should increase, however that will likely be offset by the number of times we get burnt as the players adapt to this defense.

Advice, kick back, relax, expect excitement (both positive and negative) and enjoy the spectacle!

God am I pumped about the new season and the new schemes both offensive and defensive. Let the games begin!!!! :D

07-28-2001, 12:32 PM
I think that what is going to kill this defense is our corners.

Keep in mind that in the Cowher era and in the later 97/98 3-4 era we had dependable CB's to assure us that we wouldn't let the big play go by when blitzing...We don't have that luxury anymore.

A 3-4 OR 4-3 team that blitzes like crazy NEEDS those two CB's you can put out on an island, and I think that is what our new Coordinator's defense requires. This may also be why the Denver D took a major downslide after the ringed years....

Atwater and others left.....You know who got burnt like like the dinners at Momma Caudle's house, and suddenly the Denver front four didn't have the push they did in past years.

An attacking defense is based on two simple ideas:

1)Your blitzers MUST be at the qb in 4-5 seconds or less. And they MUST hit him. Not this pansy grab and gentle roll to the ground stuff. Knock his block off each time you LEGALLY can. No late hits...

2)Your two corners MUST lock up on their best two pass catchers and keep them occupied for 5-7 seconds...this gives Edwards time to crush Gannon...:D

If the blitz is on, the QB only has 4-6 seconds to throw the ball, and unless it's a stud qb, only time to look at his 1st and 2nd reads before BLAMMO! Both of those reads should be covered, and the qb either a) tosses a pass to a covered wr, b) tosses a pass to where he THINKS the 3rd option is, or c) holds on to the ball and get's his religon changed....

MOst offenses don't have a Faulk or a Tony Gonzales at tight end. Their options outside of WR are thin and not exactly dependable, causing mistakes or busted plays. Cover their main guys, causeing either mistakes by the qb or passes to recievers with less talent and skill, and blitz consistently to rattle the qb.....

But we need our Hasty, or Albert Lewis, or (half the time) Dale Carter, etc...

keg in kc
07-28-2001, 01:29 PM
Jim, I thought Downing was a wasted pick, too (look up my posts from draft day...). In the last week, though, I've heard both DV and CP mention his name in the same breath as Steve Martin in the DT rotation. Like I said on the other thread, I don't know whether to take this as a good sign, that Downing is better than I thought, or as a bad sign indicating that the DT position is weaker than we thought...

Either way, I don't think there's much chance he won't be on the roster. How much he'll contribute I have no idea, but I think think it's about 99% certain he'll be on the team.

We won't know whether it was a wasted pick for 2 or 3 years though. It takes time to correctly analyze the draft, and pre-draft analysis doesn't really mean much, at least in my experience. Undrafted guys most people haven't even heard about, like Tony Richardson, find their way onto the field while sure-fire blue chip (we all know plenty of these...) guys fold like a metal chair...

I'm not a Downing "fan" by any stretch, but I'll give him the chance.

07-28-2001, 03:39 PM
I'm in the minority, but I think that Downing might be a solid player for us. Somebody (?) who posted on this BB briefly after the draft quoted a bunch of combine numbers which showed Downing consistently to rank high in athleticism tests (shuttles etc.). He looks like he was a late bloomer in college and a very steady run-stuffing tackler. IMO, that is exactly what we need. He may never be much, and may not be able to contribute a whole lot this year (like most 3rds), but he sounds to me like a blue-collar improving young player......OTOH, he's not as intriguing as Sands ;)

09-24-2002, 09:52 AM
This is fun!!!

The Rick
09-24-2002, 09:54 AM
Originally posted by KCJohnny
This is fun!!!
And your point would be....?

09-24-2002, 09:55 AM
Originally posted by The Rick

And your point would be....?

Nothing, as usual.