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View Full Version : So how do you do a coinflip among 3 teams?


cmh6476
12-31-2007, 09:20 AM
http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/draft/order


:hmmm:

kstater
12-31-2007, 09:22 AM
I don't know, but maybe another thread will help decide.

http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=177667

Saulbadguy
12-31-2007, 09:23 AM
Duh. A 3-sided coin.

eazyb81
12-31-2007, 09:24 AM
1st flip is between Atl and KC for #3.

Next flip will be between Atl and Oak for #4 if KC wins the first one.

cmh6476
12-31-2007, 09:24 AM
here, maybe someone can dissect this:

http://east-coast-bias.blogspot.com/2007/12/nfl-draft-order-tiebreakers.html

BigMeatballDave
12-31-2007, 09:24 AM
Duh. A 3-sided coin.LMAO Beat me to it...

chief52
12-31-2007, 09:24 AM
http://www.transworldnews.com/NewsStory.aspx?id=31781&cat=6


There is a three-way tie for the third pick between Kansas City, Atlanta and Oakland. The teams will be involved in potentially a two-tiered coin flip. The first flip, between Kansas City and Atlanta, will determine the 3rd pick. If Atlanta wins that flip, Kansas City will pick 4th and Oakland 5th. If Kansas City wins that flip, a second coin flip, between Oakland and Atlanta, will determine the 4th and 5th picks.

Delano
12-31-2007, 09:26 AM
1st flip is between Atl and KC for #3.

Next flip will be between Atl and Oak for #4 if KC wins the first one.

You are all mixed up.

Atlanta and Oakland flip for the three slot and if Oakland wins, KC and Atlanta flip for fourth. If Atlanta wins the first flip, they get three, Oakland four, and finally, KC at five.

cmh6476
12-31-2007, 09:27 AM
wouldnt atlanta be first then since they were 1-5 in division, and kc and oakland were both 2-4?

and the chiefs had a worse conference record than the raiders, if that is how it plays out...

Sure-Oz
12-31-2007, 09:29 AM
Anyone know what time this takes place?

Chief Chief
12-31-2007, 09:32 AM
With our luck, Atlanta will be delegated as "heads", Oakland as "tails", and KC as "sides".

But seriously: Rock - Paper - Scissors would be the best way to settle it.

cmh6476
12-31-2007, 09:32 AM
this is from nfl.com:

TIE-BREAKING PROCEDURE FOR SELECTION MEETING

If two or more clubs are tied in the selection order, the strength-of-schedule tie breaker is applied, subject to the following exceptions for playoff clubs:

1. The Super Bowl winner is last and the Super Bowl loser next-to-last.

2. Any non-Super Bowl playoff club involved in a tie shall be assigned priority within its segment below that of non-playoff clubs and in the order that the playoff clubs exited from the playoffs. Thus, within a tied segment a playoff club that loses in the Wild-Card game will have priority over a playoff club that loses in the Divisional playoff game, which in turn will have priority over a club that loses in the Conference Championship game. If two tied clubs exited the playoffs in the same round, the tie is broken by strength of schedule.

If any ties cannot be broken by strength of schedule, the divisional or conference tie breakers, whichever are applicable, are applied. Any ties that still exist are broken by a coin flip.

Delano
12-31-2007, 09:32 AM
Anyone know what time this takes place?

HolmeZz said the coin flips occur around the combine.

Sure-Oz
12-31-2007, 09:33 AM
HolmeZz said the coin flips occur around the combine.
damn, we have to wait that long :banghead:

Gonzo
12-31-2007, 09:33 AM
Rauchambaux!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Delano
12-31-2007, 09:34 AM
this is from nfl.com:

TIE-BREAKING PROCEDURE FOR SELECTION MEETING

If two or more clubs are tied in the selection order, the strength-of-schedule tie breaker is applied, subject to the following exceptions for playoff clubs:

1. The Super Bowl winner is last and the Super Bowl loser next-to-last.

2. Any non-Super Bowl playoff club involved in a tie shall be assigned priority within its segment below that of non-playoff clubs and in the order that the playoff clubs exited from the playoffs. Thus, within a tied segment a playoff club that loses in the Wild-Card game will have priority over a playoff club that loses in the Divisional playoff game, which in turn will have priority over a club that loses in the Conference Championship game. If two tied clubs exited the playoffs in the same round, the tie is broken by strength of schedule.

If any ties cannot be broken by strength of schedule, the divisional or conference tie breakers, whichever are applicable, are applied. Any ties that still exist are broken by a coin flip.

You are regurgitating everything mentioned in cdcox's brilliant thread.

This has already been spelled out if you care to look.

Delano
12-31-2007, 09:35 AM
damn, we have to wait that long :banghead:

You can practice in your basement with a quarter.

That should help me and my patience disorder.

Mr. Laz
12-31-2007, 09:35 AM
just forget it .... you know we will end up 5th


we are cursed



hell .... we could go 1-15 next year and there will still be 3 other teams with the same record.

we would will end up picking 4th in a one win season.

RNR
12-31-2007, 09:36 AM
So how do you do a coinflip among 3 teams?
Easy one team gets heads, one team gets tails, and the other prays it lands on end :)

cmh6476
12-31-2007, 09:38 AM
You are regurgitating everything mentioned in cdcox's brilliant thread.

This has already been spelled out if you care to look.


I did look, but it isn;'t really laid out in the initial post, it still has crap saying if we win or if oakland wins blah blah blah


I just want someone to tell me when we pick and why. I dont feel like wading through 15 pages to see if that is in there.



Also, didn't I read somehwere that teams with the same record, the top pick in the 1st round then moves to the back of the bus in the 2nd while all those other tied teams move up?

:shrug:

eazyb81
12-31-2007, 09:39 AM
You are all mixed up.

Atlanta and Oakland flip for the three slot and if Oakland wins, KC and Atlanta flip for fourth. If Atlanta wins the first flip, they get three, Oakland four, and finally, KC at five.

Nah, I'm confident my scenario is correct. I've read it on three different publications this morning and the rules make sense. Oakland cannot pick ahead of us but they can pick ahead of Atlanta because they are in different conferences.

cdcox
12-31-2007, 09:39 AM
You are all mixed up.

Atlanta and Oakland flip for the three slot and if Oakland wins, KC and Atlanta flip for fourth. If Atlanta wins the first flip, they get three, Oakland four, and finally, KC at five.

This is the procedure that I posted the second the Jets FG went through. It is based on what I believe to be the correct interpretation of the NFL tiebreaking procedures. The Raiders would have to draft before KC no matter what.

However, the NFL has said they will "decide" how to break the tie today. To me there is no decision, since the procedure for breaking the tie was laid out in advance. The only different way they could do this and stay within what they previously published is to do the KC-Atl flip for the 4/5 slot first. If KC wins that flip the draft order would be Oakland, KC, Atlanta. If Atlanta wins the first flip, then KC would draft 5th and Oakland and Atlanta would flip again for the 3/4 spots.

cdcox
12-31-2007, 09:40 AM
Nah, I'm confident my scenario is correct. I've read it on three different publications this morning and the rules make sense. Oakland cannot pick ahead of us but they can pick ahead of Atlanta because they are in different conferences.

Those publications are wrong. Oakland has the division tiebreaker on us because our record is better in common games. That is used before the conference record.

BigMeatballDave
12-31-2007, 09:42 AM
If we could have just lost in Oakland, this wouldn't be an issue...

Braincase
12-31-2007, 09:42 AM
3 coins, flipped once

One option is to let someone be all heads/tails (2 chances)
2/1 Tails (2 chances)
2/1 Heads (2 chances)

First round decides 3rd, then a regular coin flip for 4/5.

At least that's the way I would do it... :hmmm:

Chief Chief
12-31-2007, 09:44 AM
So how do you do a coinflip among 3 teams?
Easy one team gets heads, one team gets tails, and the other prays it lands on end :)

Check Post #11.

cmh6476
12-31-2007, 09:45 AM
Those publications are wrong. Oakland has the division tiebreaker on us because our record is better in common games. That is used before the conference record.


yeah but I think the playoff tiebreakers and selection tiebreakers are seperate and non-binding. Not sure of that, but the way nfl.com lists tiebreakers they are separate entities.

So I wouldn't see why Oakland couldn't finish last in the division yet still pick behind a division-rival in the draft...

cmh6476
12-31-2007, 09:46 AM
3 coins, flipped once

One option is to let someone be all heads/tails (2 chances)
2/1 Tails (2 chances)
2/1 Heads (2 chances)

First round decides 3rd, then a regular coin flip for 4/5.

At least that's the way I would do it... :hmmm:


you should email paul

cdcox
12-31-2007, 09:46 AM
Here is the complete explanation:

Miami gets the first 1-15
StL get the second. 3-13

Now Oakland, us and Atlanta are tied for the third with the same record (4-12) and the same SOS.

We have to break the tie with Oakland first, since we are in the same divsion.

Oakland must pick before us because they win the division tiebreaker (an 11 step procedure) based on KC having a stronger record against common opponents. Therefore KC cannot pick before Oakland.

Now who should pick first between Oakland and Atlanta. Here the tiebreaker is a coin flip since Atlanta and Oakland are not in the same conference or the same division.

If Atlanta wins the coin flip they will pick 3rd. Oakland will pick 4th because the have to pick before KC. And we will pick 5th.

If Oakland wins the coin flip agains Atlanta, they will pick 3rd. Who picks 4th and 5th? Again we would need a coin flip between KC and Atlanta to determine this.

In short Oakland will get the 3rd or 4th, KC the 4th or 5th and Atlanta is the only team that could draft in any one of the slots.

cmh6476
12-31-2007, 09:48 AM
Here is the complete explanation:

Miami gets the first 1-15
StL get the second. 3-13

Now Oakland, us and Atlanta are tied for the third with the same record (4-12) and the same SOS.

We have to break the tie with Oakland first, since we are in the same divsion.

Oakland must pick before us because they win the division tiebreaker (an 11 step procedure) based on KC having a stronger record against common opponents. Therefore KC cannot pick before Oakland.

Now who should pick first between Oakland and Atlanta. Here the tiebreaker is a coin flip since Atlanta and Oakland are not in the same conference or the same division.

If Atlanta wins the coin flip they will pick 3rd. Oakland will pick 4th because the have to pick before KC. And we will pick 5th.

If Oakland wins the coin flip agains Atlanta, they will pick 3rd. Who picks 4th and 5th? Again we would need a coin flip between KC and Atlanta to determine this.

In short Oakland will get the 3rd or 4th, KC the 4th or 5th and Atlanta is the only team that could draft in any one of the slots.

yeah but I still don't think you break the ties for playoffs and division seedings the same as you do for draft selection. Do you know for a fact this is the case?

cdcox
12-31-2007, 09:48 AM
yeah but I think the playoff tiebreakers and selection tiebreakers are seperate and non-binding. Not sure of that, but the way nfl.com lists tiebreakers they are separate entities.

So I wouldn't see why Oakland couldn't finish last in the division yet still pick behind a division-rival in the draft...

From the draft tie breaking rules:

If any ties cannot be broken by strength of schedule, the divisional or conference tie breakers, whichever are applicable, are applied. Any ties that still exist are broken by a coin flip.

eazyb81
12-31-2007, 09:52 AM
Those publications are wrong. Oakland has the division tiebreaker on us because our record is better in common games. That is used before the conference record.

Apparently it's not set in stone, because numerous publications are reporting that KC owns the tiebreaker over Oakland due to conference record, and these are updated reports from today. At this point you are the only one I've read that says Oakland has the tiebreaker over KC and will pick before them.

However, NFLN is also reporting that the coinflip for #3 will be between KC and Oakland, the loser flips with Atlanta for #4.

I don't think anyone knows for sure what will happen until Goodell basically decides who he wants to pick 3rd and 4th.

cdcox
12-31-2007, 09:53 AM
This procedure would be consistent with how they break ties for the playoffs. Let's say KC, Oakland and the Dolphins all had the same record and were contenders for the 6th seed in the playoffs. You have to break the tie in the division between KC and Oakland before you even consider the Dolphins. That is the way that I read the playoff tiebreakers, and I'm 99.9999% certain that was the intent of who ever wrote the draft tiebreakers. Maybe they will interpret it differently now, but that would essentially be making a new rule on the fly.

cmh6476
12-31-2007, 09:53 AM
From the draft tie breaking rules:

If any ties cannot be broken by strength of schedule, the divisional or conference tie breakers, whichever are applicable, are applied. Any ties that still exist are broken by a coin flip.


if thats the case, then atl would be 3 (1-5 in division), kc 4 (3-9 in conference), then oakland (2-4 in division, 4-8 in conference)


:shrug:



to add to the confusion:

Falcons, Oakland, K.C. vie for third draft pick

By CHRIS VIVLAMORE
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution

Published on: 12/31/07

This story corrects an earlier version that inaccurately stated the Falcons had clinched the third pick in the 2008 draft.

The Falcons will select third, fourth or fifth in the 2008 NFL draft after a coin flip will be used to break a three-way tie. The date of the tiebreaking coin flip has yet to be announced.

The Falcons are tied with Oakland and Kansas City. All three teams, plus, the New York Jets, finished at 4-12. The Falcons, Raiders and Chiefs finished with identical strengths of schedule. The NFL has no other tie-breaker in the case of three-way ties. The Jets had a tougher strength of schedule than the three other teams and will pick sixth.

Miami (1-15) and St. Louis (3-13) will make the first two picks.

San Francisco and Baltimore both finished 5-11. New England, which owns the 49ers' first-round pick, will select seventh and the Ravens eighth based on strength of schedule.

Seven teams are tied with 7-9 records. Next are four teams at 8-8, including Houston. Since the Falcons receive the Texans' second-round pick from the Matt Schaub trade, they will also make a selection between 16th and 19th in the second round, pending tie-breakers.


2008 DRAFT ORDER

1. Miami

2. St. Louis

(tie) Atlanta/Oakland/Kansas City

6. N.Y. Jets

7. New England (from San Fran.)

8. Baltimore

http://www.ajc.com/braves/content/sports/falcons/stories/2007/12/30/faldraft_1231.html

cdcox
12-31-2007, 09:56 AM
Apparently it's not set in stone, because numerous publications are reporting that KC owns the tiebreaker over Oakland due to conference record, and these are updated reports from today. At this point you are the only one I've read that says Oakland has the tiebreaker over KC and will pick before them.

However, NFLN is also reporting that the coinflip for #3 will be between KC and Oakland, the loser flips with Atlanta for #4.

I don't think anyone knows for sure what will happen until Goodell basically decides who he wants to pick 3rd and 4th.

I agree that the situation is fluid due to some idiocity in the league office. (They already said how they were going to do it). But I wouldn't put any stock in published reports at this time. The Atlanta Journal Constitution published something early on saying that Atlanta would draft 3rd and they had to retract it later.

cdcox
12-31-2007, 09:58 AM
No, you cannot apply a division tiebreaker to two teams that are not in the same division. Earlier that AJC report had Atlanta drafting 3rd when they applied the rule like this. They later retracted ther story as you can see.


if thats the case, then atl would be 3 (1-5 in division), kc 4 (3-9 in conference), then oakland (2-4 in division, 4-8 in conference)


:shrug:



to add to the confusion:



http://www.ajc.com/braves/content/sports/falcons/stories/2007/12/30/faldraft_1231.html

cdcox
12-31-2007, 10:00 AM
I wish I could talk to someone in the league office about this.

Micjones
12-31-2007, 10:00 AM
I read today that Oakland will pick 5th and that KC and Atlanta will need the coin toss to determine the 3rd and 4th slots...

chief52
12-31-2007, 10:06 AM
I read today that Oakland will pick 5th and that KC and Atlanta will need the coin toss to determine the 3rd and 4th slots...

Yep...

cmh6476
12-31-2007, 10:14 AM
this sounds like our fantasy league, where something always comes up you didnt have a rule in place for so you make one up as you go and it is worked into your rules for the following year

cdcox
12-31-2007, 10:15 AM
here, maybe someone can dissect this:

http://east-coast-bias.blogspot.com/2007/12/nfl-draft-order-tiebreakers.html

The post by Chief Rick in that thread outlines exactly what I've been saying. Anyone who had rigorously followed the tiebreaking procedures as written at nfl.com comes to the same conclusion. I don't know why the league is trying to reinvent things.

Braincase
12-31-2007, 10:15 AM
Somebody please pass the !@#$%$#@! tylenol.

HolmeZz
12-31-2007, 10:49 AM
HolmeZz said the coin flips occur around the combine.

That's usually when it's taken place when there's a tiebreaker between two teams. I have no idea what they'll do to break up a 3 way tie.

Here's an article on the Niners/Raiders flip two years ago:

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4176/is_20060225/ai_n16180805

Mr. Arrowhead
12-31-2007, 11:00 AM
is anybody else getting confused about where we pick

Joe Seahawk
12-31-2007, 11:05 AM
Rock, paper, scissors.

Mr. Arrowhead
12-31-2007, 11:05 AM
i just heard on 810 we will pick 3rd or 4th depending on a coinflip with atlanta

Frankie
12-31-2007, 11:39 AM
This may be posted already, but just in case:

from NFL.com
"Atlanta, Kansas City, and Oakland had the same strength-of-schedule. Since Kansas City finished third in the AFC West and the Raiders fourth (the tie was broken on the basis of the Chiefs’ 3-11 record in common games while the Raiders were 2-12), the Raiders will draft ahead of the Chiefs. Atlanta and Oakland will flip a coin for the third position; if Atlanta wins, the Falcons will draft third, the Raiders fourth, and the Chiefs fifth. If the Raiders win the coin flip, they will draft third, and the Falcons and Chiefs will flip a coin to determine the fourth and fifth positions."

blueballs
12-31-2007, 11:45 AM
There was a flip for draft spot in 2007
seems like Tampa Bay was one of the teams
shouldn't be hard to do a search and compare

Ari ümlaüt
12-31-2007, 11:46 AM
3rd would be soooo nice. I cant WAIT for Carl to **** it up!

cdcox
12-31-2007, 11:47 AM
It's on nfl.com now that it will play out exactly as I have been saying (over and over) for the last 18 hours.

blueballs
12-31-2007, 11:51 AM
Posted Feb 23, 2007


The Cleveland Browns won their coin flip with the Tampa Bay Buccaneers today, meaning that they will pick third in this year's NFL Draft.


The Browns future was changed a bit by random chance this morning, as the team won their coin flip with the Tampa Bay Buccaneers. The Browns will now pick third in this year's draft.

The spot where the Browns select is far from a trivial item, as the difference between the two spots in the draft significantly changes the value of their pick, both in terms of their flexibility to choose the player that they prefer, and potential trade-down value. In addition, the Bucs and Browns are both teams that might be interested in a quarterback, and could potentially select a player the other team covets.

The Browns and Bucs found themselves in this coin flip situation since the teams finished with identical records and strength of schedule in 2006. While the teams did play, with the Browns

Mr. Plow
12-31-2007, 11:56 AM
I'm not sure why this is even an issue. KC will screw this up somehow and end up not picking until the 4th round.

RNR
12-31-2007, 12:03 PM
With our luck, Atlanta will be delegated as "heads", Oakland as "tails", and KC as "sides".

But seriously: Rock - Paper - Scissors would be the best way to settle it.
Oops

Frankie
12-31-2007, 12:18 PM
When will we all know? Aren't they tossing the coin today?

Calcountry
12-31-2007, 12:19 PM
With our luck, Atlanta will be delegated as "heads", Oakland as "tails", and KC as "sides".

But seriously: Rock - Paper - Scissors would be the best way to settle it.I would be all for that, provided the word "rock" "paper" and "scissor" had to be submitted in envelops prior to the tiebreaker.

They should each be required to submit 5 rounds of decisions in case of further ties.

mcan
12-31-2007, 12:22 PM
The suspense is mind-boggling!

Calcountry
12-31-2007, 12:23 PM
just forget it .... you know we will end up 5th


we are cursed



hell .... we could go 1-15 next year and there will still be 3 other teams with the same record.

we would will end up picking 4th in a one win season.You might be onto something. Maybe we should change the name of the team to something more politically correct, like The Kansas City Hunter Gatherers.





If you are getting the least bit pissed right now, you need to check your sarcasm meter.

The Poz
01-01-2008, 07:50 AM
http://www.mercurynews.com/raidersheadlines/ci_7855735?nclick_check=1

Raiders win draft-pick tiebreaker over Kansas City

The Raiders might have won only four games this season but they gained some measure of consolation by edging the Kansas City Chiefs for a higher pick in the NFL draft in April.
The Miami Dolphins (1-15) earned the No. 1 pick, followed by the St. Louis Rams (3-13). The next four selections came down to a tie-breaking procedure among the Atlanta Falcons, New York Jets, Raiders and Chiefs - all 4-12.
Atlanta, Kansas City, and Oakland had the same strength-of-schedule (.516). The Raiders won a tiebreaker with the Chiefs because they had a worse record in common games. The Raiders were 2-12, the Chiefs 3-11.
Oakland will get the rights to a pick ahead of Kansas City. That pick will be either the No. 3 or No. 4, pending a coin flip between the Falcons and Raiders at the Scouting Combine in February.
The Falcons will pick third if they win the coin flip, the Raiders fourth and the Chiefs fifth. But if the Raiders win, the Falcons and Chiefs will have to flip again to determine the fourth and fifth slots.

eazyb81
01-01-2008, 08:55 AM
http://www.mercurynews.com/raidersheadlines/ci_7855735?nclick_check=1

Raiders win draft-pick tiebreaker over Kansas City

The Raiders might have won only four games this season but they gained some measure of consolation by edging the Kansas City Chiefs for a higher pick in the NFL draft in April.
The Miami Dolphins (1-15) earned the No. 1 pick, followed by the St. Louis Rams (3-13). The next four selections came down to a tie-breaking procedure among the Atlanta Falcons, New York Jets, Raiders and Chiefs - all 4-12.
Atlanta, Kansas City, and Oakland had the same strength-of-schedule (.516). The Raiders won a tiebreaker with the Chiefs because they had a worse record in common games. The Raiders were 2-12, the Chiefs 3-11.
Oakland will get the rights to a pick ahead of Kansas City. That pick will be either the No. 3 or No. 4, pending a coin flip between the Falcons and Raiders at the Scouting Combine in February.
The Falcons will pick third if they win the coin flip, the Raiders fourth and the Chiefs fifth. But if the Raiders win, the Falcons and Chiefs will have to flip again to determine the fourth and fifth slots.

So they only did one coin flip now, and are doing the rest at the combine?

WTF is the point of that?