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KCJohnny
12-31-2007, 03:04 PM
KK was in rare form today excoriating King Carl's failure to deliver on the main SB ingredient: a franchise QB.

Among KK's points (and I'm posting them for discussion, not neccessarily aggreeing with them): SB winning teams build around a franchise QB; not a TE (Gonzalez) or OLT Denver built its team around Elway; result: 5 SBs Brady and 4 other Pats are the only constants since 2001; the other 48 players have all been imported to build around Brady The Colts have 7 #1 picks on their squad: QB, RB, TE, WRS and a CB - no OLT, no LBs/DTs, etc... Conventional wisdom: 3 of the top 10 draft prospects are QBs Brodie Croyle is not the QBotF; he is < Jake Plummer Paying LJ $19 mil was a colossal blunder Quality OLmen can be selected in the 3-7th rounds Carl's job might not be as safe as he is telling the media Herm may resign if he can't get sufficient control to turn things around; he will be hired again in the NFL if that happens Clark Hunt will address the media next week A major Chiefs announcement is pending (?) Solari is as good as gone (will not accept demotion to OL coach) Chiefs must draft a QB #1 or forget a SB; they may get another 11-5 early exit, but no SB w/o a franchise QB 15 of the last 19 years the Chiefs have had a SB-caliber OL but not the QB to go with it; 20 NFL teams currently have OLs good enough to win a SB but very few have the QBIt was rather disturbing to listen to KK's severe appraisal of young Mr. Croyle. He deplored Croyle's performance in every aspect, and said a strong arm is not enough. 0-6 was plenty of opportunity to see if the potential is there and it clearly is not. He identified Croyle's holding onto the ball, poor reads, missing open receivers, throwing behind the receiver, etc... as performance weaknesses and then he went into the usual riffing about Croyle's durability.

It was pretty compelling the way KK presented it. I agree with much but not sure Croyle can't improve. I was deeply disappointed with Brodie's performance yesterday but 2 things jumped out at me:

1. Gonzo and Bowe dropped about 7 passes between them;

2. Until Croyle learns the touch pass, he's never gonna make it in the NFL. Throwing lazer darts from 5 yards away is stupid.

Happy New Year,
KCJ
:arrow:

KC kid
12-31-2007, 03:09 PM
KK was in rare form today excoriating King Carl's failure to deliver on the main SB ingredient: a franchise QB.

Among KK's points (and I'm posting them for discussion, not neccessarily aggreeing with them): SB winning teams build around a franchise QB; not a TE (Gonzalez) or OLT Denver built its team around Elway; result: 5 SBs Brady and 4 other Pats are the only constants since 2001; the other 48 players have all been imported to build around Brady The Colts have 7 #1 picks on their squad: QB, RB, TE, WRS and a CB - no OLT, no LBs/DTs, etc... Conventional wisdom: 3 of the top 10 draft prospects are QBs Brodie Croyle is not the QBotF; he is < Jake Plummer Paying LJ $19 mil was a colossal blunder Quality OLmen can be selected in the 3-7th rounds Carl's job might not be as safe as he is telling the media Herm may resign if he can't get sufficient control to turn things around; he will be hired again in the NFL if that happens Clark Hunt will address the media next week A major Chiefs announcement is pending (?) Solari is as good as gone (will not accept demotion to OL coach) Chiefs must draft a QB #1 or forget a SB; they may get another 11-5 early exit, but no SB w/o a franchise QB 15 of the last 19 years the Chiefs have had a SB-caliber OL but not the QB to go with it; 20 NFL teams currently have OLs good enough to win a SB but very few have the QBIt was rather disturbing to listen to KK's severe appraisal of young Mr. Croyle. He deplored Croyle's performance in every aspect, and said a strong arm is not enough. 0-6 was plenty of opportunity to see if the potential is there and it clearly is not. He identified Croyle's holding onto the ball, poor reads, missing open receivers, throwing behind the receiver, etc... as performance weaknesses and then he went into the usual riffing about Croyle's durability.

It was pretty compelling the way KK presented it. I agree with much but not sure Croyle can't improve. I was deeply disappointed with Brodie's performance yesterday but 2 things jumped out at me:

1. Gonzo and Bowe dropped about 7 passes between them;

2. Until Croyle learns the touch pass, he's never gonna make it in the NFL. Throwing lazer darts from 5 yards away is stupid.

Happy New Year,
KCJ
:arrow:


I agree with this idiot and any individual with an ounce of common sense would

Woodrow Call
12-31-2007, 03:09 PM
Carl's job might not be as safe as he is telling the media

Herm may resign if he can't get sufficient control to turn things around; he will be hired again in the NFL if that happens

Clark Hunt will address the media next week

A major Chiefs announcement is pending (?)

Solari is as good as gone (will not accept demotion to OL coach)


I hope he's right.

Donger
12-31-2007, 03:11 PM
The entire premise is flawed. Winning a Super Bowl is not Peterson's goal.

Cochise
12-31-2007, 03:12 PM
Except for the Croyle bashing, he's probably right about all the other stuff.

The primary question an NFL team needs to answer if they want to win a super bowl is, "who is our franchise QB?". The primary question the Chiefs need to answer is, "Is Croyle our franchise QB?" If not - who is?

Unfortunately we elected this season to start Damon Huard and try to win now with one of the worst rosters in team history. It speaks to the incompetence of the front office that they thought this roster, which was lucky to win 4 games, could make the playoffs.

The primary purpose of this season should have been to answer the prime directive (tm) with respect to Croyle. Instead we chose to kid ourselves about not only the way the NFL works but the state of this team as well, and now we gained nothing the entire season besides watching our roster get older, watching Arrowhead empty on gameday, and prolonging the suffering of the fan base even further.

Why have we never won a Super Bowl? Because we have never developed a quarterback - indeed, we've rarely even tried.

KCJohnny
12-31-2007, 03:12 PM
I hope he's right.

KK intimated that there were a lot of things "swirling around" at One Arrowhead Drive. He scoffed at CP's announcement that he would serve the remained of his contract. Clark has not really spoken yet.

Silock
12-31-2007, 03:13 PM
I agree with him except the bits about Croyle. I can't think of a young QB off the top of my head that hasn't had the same kinds of problems that he has. If the best available athlete were a QB at our position, I'd still take him, but it's far too soon to know whether or not Croyle is the QBOTF or not.

dirk digler
12-31-2007, 03:13 PM
I have been listening to KK since he came on today and I agree with him now about Croyle. It is time for us to draft a franchise QB with the #5 pick and if we fail we fail but at least we tried.

Woodrow Call
12-31-2007, 03:14 PM
Except for the Croyle bashing, he's probably right about all the other stuff.

The primary question an NFL team needs to answer if they want to win a super bowl is, "who is our franchise QB?". The primary question the Chiefs need to answer is, "Is Croyle our franchise QB?" If not - who is?

Unfortunately we elected this season to start Damon Huard and try to win now with one of the worst rosters in team history.

The primary purpose of this season should have been to answer the prime directive (tm) with respect to Croyle. Instead we chose to kid ourselves about not only the way the NFL works but the state of this team as well, and now we gained nothing this entire season.

That decision will haunt the Chiefs for year to come.

xbarretx
12-31-2007, 03:14 PM
gosh, after reading that i think im on the QB w/ 4th or 5th pick bandwagon :clap:

seriously though, WE SHOULD have started the season with Brodie. if hes that bad we would have been picking first or at least 2nd. then we wouldnt have a giant ? hanging over the depth chart on QB position.

if we do that though, we get another good year or two of bad drafts which = high picks < 10

i think this year sucked fat :cuss: we were mislead by coaching, and shafted by not making a serious effort to begin the rebuilding until the very end. However, with that being said im ok with this year sucking providing we make something of this comming draft, and the team builds towards the future. if that happens correctly, the Cheifs could actually have a good chance at SB app.

..or, maybe my glass is just overflowing with half-full-ness ;)

Coach
12-31-2007, 03:16 PM
I agree with him except the bits about Croyle. I can't think of a young QB off the top of my head that hasn't had the same kinds of problems that he has. If the best available athlete were a QB at our position, I'd still take him, but it's far too soon to know whether or not Croyle is the QBOTF or not.

Well, how can someone get a good idea of a QB that can be a QBOTF behind this godawful line?

He got a raw deal. He got stuck with the worst o-line in football, and I can't tell how many poor decisions and injuries are to blame on that.

Hell, the line while he was in Alabama was better than this shit we're seeing right now.

And truthfully, the Chiefs screwed up not playing him the entire season. Croyle and the Chiefs really needed those early games to see more of what he could do.

Mecca
12-31-2007, 03:16 PM
I have been listening to KK since he came on today and I agree with him now about Croyle. It is time for us to draft a franchise QB with the #5 pick and if we fail we fail but at least we tried.

Yep you have to be willing to risk it and roll with it. The Raiders did.....both the Bengals and Colts got burned on top 5 QB's, when presented with the chance again they fired at the QB again. You have to respect that even teams like the Bengals and Raiders get it to make the risk and try, so I respect that..

Us on the other hand, we're unwilling to take that risk which is why we never win anything.

BigMeatballDave
12-31-2007, 03:17 PM
Well, let the Kevin Kietzman fellatio hour begin for the Brodie haters...

Coach
12-31-2007, 03:17 PM
Yep you have to be willing to risk it and roll with it. The Raiders did.....both the Bengals and Colts got burned on top 5 QB's, when presented with the chance again they fired at the QB again. You have to respect that even teams like the Bengals and Raiders get it to make the risk and try, so I respect that..

Us on the other hand, we're unwilling to take that risk which is why we never win anything.

Again, a QB can't do everything. The QB cannot throw it and catch it at the same time. The QB cannot throw it and block at the same time.

Look at Cleveland. They had a shitty line last year. They upgraded their line, and it was improved. The problem was obvious, which was Charlie Frye. They made the right choice of getting rid of him, and playing Derek Anderson.

Croyle is NOT the problem.

xbarretx
12-31-2007, 03:17 PM
The entire premise is flawed. Winning a Super Bowl is not Peterson's goal.

maybe he and the other GM's play "fantasy attendence" so by keeping the numbers high he makes it to the SB in his fantasy league :rolleyes:

KCJohnny
12-31-2007, 03:20 PM
Except for the Croyle bashing, he's probably right about all the other stuff.

The primary question an NFL team needs to answer if they want to win a super bowl is, "who is our franchise QB?". The primary question the Chiefs need to answer is, "Is Croyle our franchise QB?" If not - who is?

Unfortunately we elected this season to start Damon Huard and try to win now with one of the worst rosters in team history. It speaks to the incompetence of the front office that they thought this roster, which was lucky to win 4 games, could make the playoffs.

The primary purpose of this season should have been to answer the prime directive (tm) with respect to Croyle. Instead we chose to kid ourselves about not only the way the NFL works but the state of this team as well, and now we gained nothing this entire season.

Huard gave the team its best chance to win. Huard clearly outperformed Croyle in every measurable.

We were 4-3 1st in AFCW when the skid began. Then Croyle came and and after a solid showing at Indy began to show why he's either got a long way to develop or simply is not the QBotF.

The conventional wisdom is to take the BPA on the board which will probably be a QB unless McFadden is still there. We will probably not take McFadden. That creates a total 20-game preseason again next year with the objective being talent evaluation. That could spur a long, and from a business standpoint risky entrance into QB no-man's land. Looka the problems the past few seasons at QB for Dallas, Minny and TB for example. ATL is there now. We could be headed there.

I think if we do not draft a QB #1 we may go after Chad or McNabb. Then of course, there's a scenario where we don't draft a QB or sign one FA either.

Mecca
12-31-2007, 03:20 PM
Well, how can someone get a good idea of a QB that can be a QBOTF behind this godawful line?

He got a raw deal. He got stuck with the worst o-line in football, and I can't tell how many poor decisions and injuries are to blame on that.

Hell, the line while he was in Alabama was better than this shit we're seeing right now.

And truthfully, the Chiefs screwed up not playing him the entire season. Croyle and the Chiefs really needed those early games to see more of what he could do.

Do you think the Colts have an awesome line? It has no 1st round picks on it...Manning makes that line good, part of line play is the QB. Getting the ball out, making the right reads.

BigMeatballDave
12-31-2007, 03:20 PM
If we are drafting a QB #1, it better be Ryan, otherwise it will be a waste. I don't think Brohm or Woodson are worth a top 10 pick.

Micjones
12-31-2007, 03:20 PM
I agree with KK and that NEVER happens.

Croyle had an opportunity...
And he was no better yesterday than he was when the pre-season started. We need to draft a QB.

dirk digler
12-31-2007, 03:21 PM
Yep you have to be willing to risk it and roll with it. The Raiders did.....both the Bengals and Colts got burned on top 5 QB's, when presented with the chance again they fired at the QB again. You have to respect that even teams like the Bengals and Raiders get it to make the risk and try, so I respect that..

Us on the other hand, we're unwilling to take that risk which is why we never win anything.

Yep I agree. We are in position to take either Ryan or Woodson and we need to go for it

Mecca
12-31-2007, 03:21 PM
Again, a QB can't do everything. The QB cannot throw it and catch it at the same time. The QB cannot throw it and block at the same time.

Look at Cleveland. They had a shitty line last year. They upgraded their line, and it was improved. The problem was obvious, which was Charlie Frye. They made the right choice of getting rid of him, and playing Derek Anderson.

Croyle is NOT the problem.

I have a really hard time trusting a guy when with the same cast of players Damon Huard actually played better.....if Croyle had finished that Detroit game we'd have lost 40-3.

Mr. Flopnuts
12-31-2007, 03:23 PM
I have a hard time understanding how people can back Croyle at this point. Everyone complained and whined when Huard was our starter. When he got yanked, how did Brodie do? What? 0-6? Seriously, I understand this team has plenty of issues besides the QB play. Croyle didn't give any indication that he could overcome 1 oz. of adversity. He's not the answer. It's time to try and find the right guy.

Micjones
12-31-2007, 03:23 PM
Huard's play last week laid the excuses to rest.

Coach
12-31-2007, 03:23 PM
Do you think the Colts have an awesome line? It has no 1st round picks on it...Manning makes that line good, part of line play is the QB. Getting the ball out, making the right reads.

Manning makes that line good, becuase of a excellent COACHING.

Our coaching staff really sucks. I wouldn't be surprised if they couldn't even get in a high school playoffs, if this same coaching staff was coaching a high school football team.

I should also point out that the Colts line is worlds better than the Chiefs line, it's hardly arguable. I should ALSO mention that Peyton Manning have been in the leage for quite awhile, while Croyle only have been here for 2 years.

Come on, let's not be disgenuios here.

BigMeatballDave
12-31-2007, 03:23 PM
Again, a QB can't do everything. The QB cannot throw it and catch it at the same time. The QB cannot throw it and block at the same time.

http://i.a.cnn.net/si/images/football/nfl/players/2365.jpg

old_geezer
12-31-2007, 03:24 PM
Herm may resign if he can't get sufficient control to turn things around; he will be hired again in the NFL if that happens

Ghod! I hope that is true; and I hope the next team stupid enough to hire Herm is in the AFC West (not us).

Coach
12-31-2007, 03:24 PM
I have a really hard time trusting a guy when with the same cast of players Damon Huard actually played better.....if Croyle had finished that Detroit game we'd have lost 40-3.

And I have a really hard time trusting a person when the same cast made Damon's numbers look terrible.

I should also point out that I'm beginning to have a hard time trusting a person who can't realize that the pass protection just got WORSE each passing game, except for ONE game.

siberian khatru
12-31-2007, 03:25 PM
I'm still unconvinced that any of these guys is a "franchise" QB. They could be franchise QBs like Alex Smith. The Niners needed a QB so they picked the best one out there, regardless of whether he truly was worthy of the No. 1 pick.

It's going to be an interesting offseason and combine, seeing how this QB class evolves as it gets poked and prodded. I'll keep an open mind for now.

Cochise
12-31-2007, 03:26 PM
Huard gave the team its best chance to win. Huard clearly outperformed Croyle in every measurable.

What the bloody hell does Huard giving us the best chance to go 4-3 have to do with winning a super bowl? How does playing Damon Huard help us find a franchise QB? What will we have 3 years from now because Huard won 4 games in 2007?

I can't believe people are still out there supporting "win now". The franchise is in shambles because of "win now".

Mecca
12-31-2007, 03:28 PM
Matt Ryan is a better prospect than Alex Smith, he at least plays in a pro style offense and has the size and intangibles for the position.

Woodrow Call
12-31-2007, 03:29 PM
Yep I agree. We are in position to take either Ryan or Woodson and we need to go for it

I'm starting to agree with you. If Ryan or Woodson is there I would make the pick and hit the OL in the 2nd.

Let Croyle start until the rookie is ready and see what happens. If Croyle pans out then the Chiefs have a nice trade chip down the road.

dirk digler
12-31-2007, 03:30 PM
Interesting question by KK would the Chiefs win yesterday with Damon Huard?

I think yes which says everything I need to know about Croyle

bowener
12-31-2007, 03:31 PM
The entire premise is flawed. Winning a Super Bowl is not Peterson's goal.
ROFL

As a student of philosophy, I love your summation.

KCJohnny
12-31-2007, 03:31 PM
Another variable no one is talking about is the offensive system next year. KK believes Solari is history. What if the new OC comes in here and wants to run a variation of the Left Coast Offense? Can Croyle run the LCO? That makes acquiring a tested QB like McNabb or Chad all the more attractive to the FO.

In my mind, Croyle's greatest weakness is his inability to see the deep receivers. His YPA average is awful - more than a yard less than Huard's whom most people on this forum (ignorantly) castigate as a checkdown QB. Huard is a reasonably complete, mature QB who did just about everything that could be done with this O.

If we go to the LCO in '08 then a short-range semi-mobile QB like Croyle may succeed. If we stay with the vertical attack-the-seams Coryell system, I'd rather have a crusty old Huard who can throw the 40 yd attempt a few times than a QB getting about 5.7 yards per attempt.

Mecca
12-31-2007, 03:32 PM
Interesting question by KK would the Chiefs win yesterday with Damon Huard?

I think yes which says everything I need to know about Croyle

That's kind of where I've gotten with it, it's not about wanting to play Huard, it's about seeing that Croyle is actually worse than he is...

I didn't think that when I watched other young QB's play. I didn't watch Carson Palmer and think "Jon Kitna would have won this game".

Cochise
12-31-2007, 03:34 PM
Another variable no one is talking about is the offensive system next year. KK believes Solari is history. What if the new OC comes in here and wants to run a variation of the Left Coast Offense? Can Croyle run the LCO? That makes acquiring a tested QB like McNabb or Chad all the more attractive to the FO.

What is your deal? 20 years of futility and washed up QBs and you want to try the same formula all over again? You actually WANT McNabb or Pennington?

Ughhhhhh this just makes me sick to even argue about. How many years do we have to fail doing things the same retarded way over and over while other teams win championships before people realize we ought to try it a different way?

FFFFFFOOCKKK

OnTheWarpath58
12-31-2007, 03:34 PM
Interesting question by KK would the Chiefs win yesterday with Damon Huard?

I think yes which says everything I need to know about Croyle

Then you didn't watch the game.

I don't know what the team sack record is for one game, but the Jets might have destroyed it yesterday had Huard played.

3 out of every 4 pass attempts, Croyle was running for his life.

Huard wouldn't have been able to avoid that pressure.

Sorry, it's not even debatable, IMO.

bowener
12-31-2007, 03:36 PM
I have a really hard time trusting a guy when with the same cast of players Damon Huard actually played better.....if Croyle had finished that Detroit game we'd have lost 40-3.

This makes me very sad... because it is true.

WilliamTheIrish
12-31-2007, 03:36 PM
If we go to the LCO in '08 then a short-range semi-mobile QB like Croyle may succeed. If we stay with the vertical attack-the-seams Coryell system, I'd rather have a crusty old Huard who can throw the 40 yd attempt a few times than a QB getting about 5.7 yards per attempt.

John,

We did not run an "attack the seams" Coryell offense. I'm not sure exactly what you'd call our offense. I mean I can think of several names unfit for print....

dirk digler
12-31-2007, 03:37 PM
Then you didn't watch the game.

I don't know what the team sack record is for one game, but the Jets might have destroyed it yesterday had Huard played.

3 out of every 4 pass attempts, Croyle was running for his life.

Huard wouldn't have been able to avoid that pressure.

Sorry, it's not even debatable, IMO.

I watched the game and I understand the line is horrible but Damon actually throws the ball down the field alot more than Brodie. Last week he came in and almost won the game for us even though Croyle was losing 16-0 when he got hurt

Donger
12-31-2007, 03:37 PM
What is your deal? 20 years of futility and washed up QBs and you want to try the same formula all over again? You actually WANT McNabb or Pennington?

Ughhhhhh this just makes me sick to even argue about. How many years do we have to fail doing things while other teams win championships before people realize we ought to try it a different way?

FFFFFFOOCKKK

A turd with a pretty ribbon wrapped around it is still a turd.

patteeu
12-31-2007, 03:37 PM
* SB winning teams build around a franchise QB; not a TE (Gonzalez) or OLT

I wonder what his basis for saying this is. The other day I looked up all 41 winning superbowl lineups and found more LTs who started their careers with and were developed by the winning team than there were QBs.

*Brady and 4 other Pats are the only constants since 2001

One of the other 4 players that have been constants for that team is Matt Light, LT.

* Quality OLmen can be selected in the 3-7th rounds

While true, out of something like 28 individuals who have started at LT for winning superbowl teams, 15 of them were taken in rounds 1 or 2.

bowener
12-31-2007, 03:38 PM
A major Chiefs announcement is pending (?)

Is it: we are trading for Pennington or McNabb? Because I can see that being the announcement if we keep Czar Carl on his throne.

KCJohnny
12-31-2007, 03:39 PM
What is your deal? 20 years of futility and washed up QBs and you want to try the same formula all over again? You actually WANT McNabb or Pennington?

Ughhhhhh this just makes me sick to even argue about. How many years do we have to fail doing things while other teams win championships before people realize we ought to try it a different way?

FFFFFFOOCKKK

Dude, relax. We all want the same thing - a sho 'nuff franchise QB who can be developed in 3 years or less.

My point was the new O/C (should Solari be released) may bring in a new system that will/won't fit the personnel we have now. Look no further than the 2000 Chiefs. We had a 4,000 yd PB QB and the #5 passing attack in the NFL. Vermiel came in and did not like Grbac for his Ramifization plan and had Trent Green in mind all along. The rest is history.

So the missing variable here is who will run the Chiefs offense and what kind of QB will fit that system? You're kidding yourself if you can't see Chad Pennington somewhere in that scenario...

Mecca
12-31-2007, 03:39 PM
Now I'm listening to Casey Weigman talk about how "all the good guys from this team are gone" and then mention people like Eric Hicks....

It's nice to hear how we need more character guys like Eric Hicks, bah.

Silock
12-31-2007, 03:40 PM
I watched the game and I understand the line is horrible but Damon actually throws the ball down the field alot more than Brodie. Last week he came in and almost won the game for us even though Croyle was losing 16-0 when he got hurt

And that couldn't possibly be because of adjustments made elsewhere, could it?

kcchiefsus
12-31-2007, 03:40 PM
If quality offensive linemen can be found in rounds 3-7 then why the hell are most starting left tackles taken in the first 2 rounds?

Joe Thomas, round 1
Tony Ugoh, round 2
Marcus McNeill, round 2
Matt Light, round 2
Orlando Pace, round 1
Walter Jones, round 1
Jonathan Ogden, round 1
D'Brickashaw Ferguson, round 1
Jammal Brown, round 1
Michael Roos, round 2
Vernon Carey, round 1
Bryant McKinnie, round 1
Levi Jones, round 1
Jeff Backus, round 1
Chris Samuels, round 1
Chad Clifton, round 2
Marvel Smith, round 2
John Tait, round 1
William Thomas, round 1
Wayne Gandy, round 1
Khalif Barnes, round 2
Flozell Adams, round 2
Luke Petitgout, round 1

23 of 32 starting left tackles in the NFL were drafted in the 1st or 2nd round. Then when you add in tackles drafted in the 3rd round (Jonas Jennings, Travell Wharton, Mike Gandy, and Damion McIntosh) the number jumps to 27 of 32 starting NFL left tackles that were drafted in the first 3 rounds. But sure, Kevin, let's just ignore that trend and draft our left tackle on the 2nd day. I'm sure we will have the same luck as those 5 teams who found their left tackle outside of the first day of the draft.

Valiant
12-31-2007, 03:41 PM
KK was in rare form today excoriating King Carl's failure to deliver on the main SB ingredient: a franchise QB.

Among KK's points (and I'm posting them for discussion, not neccessarily aggreeing with them): SB winning teams build around a franchise QB; not a TE (Gonzalez) or OLT Denver built its team around Elway; result: 5 SBs Brady and 4 other Pats are the only constants since 2001; the other 48 players have all been imported to build around Brady The Colts have 7 #1 picks on their squad: QB, RB, TE, WRS and a CB - no OLT, no LBs/DTs, etc... Conventional wisdom: 3 of the top 10 draft prospects are QBs Brodie Croyle is not the QBotF; he is < Jake Plummer Paying LJ $19 mil was a colossal blunder Quality OLmen can be selected in the 3-7th rounds Carl's job might not be as safe as he is telling the media Herm may resign if he can't get sufficient control to turn things around; he will be hired again in the NFL if that happens Clark Hunt will address the media next week A major Chiefs announcement is pending (?) Solari is as good as gone (will not accept demotion to OL coach) Chiefs must draft a QB #1 or forget a SB; they may get another 11-5 early exit, but no SB w/o a franchise QB 15 of the last 19 years the Chiefs have had a SB-caliber OL but not the QB to go with it; 20 NFL teams currently have OLs good enough to win a SB but very few have the QBIt was rather disturbing to listen to KK's severe appraisal of young Mr. Croyle. He deplored Croyle's performance in every aspect, and said a strong arm is not enough. 0-6 was plenty of opportunity to see if the potential is there and it clearly is not. He identified Croyle's holding onto the ball, poor reads, missing open receivers, throwing behind the receiver, etc... as performance weaknesses and then he went into the usual riffing about Croyle's durability.

It was pretty compelling the way KK presented it. I agree with much but not sure Croyle can't improve. I was deeply disappointed with Brodie's performance yesterday but 2 things jumped out at me:

1. Gonzo and Bowe dropped about 7 passes between them;

2. Until Croyle learns the touch pass, he's never gonna make it in the NFL. Throwing lazer darts from 5 yards away is stupid.

Happy New Year,
KCJ
:arrow:


2. Until Croyle learns the touch pass, he's never gonna make it in the NFL. Throwing lazer darts from 5 yards away is stupid.


I am not saying he is Favre, but Favre had those problems early on for a while.. So it is possible for him to adjust.. My only concern is his durability... So this year draft BPA at that spot unless we get a sick deal for a trade down and have Brodie play the whole year.. If he cannot make it the full year or we suck then look to draft a QB in the first next year.. Hopefully there will be more of a sure elite QBotf next year as Bhrom or none of the others impress enough to be selected with the 5th..

KCJohnny
12-31-2007, 03:41 PM
John,

We did not run an "attack the seams" Coryell offense. I'm not sure exactly what you'd call our offense. I mean I can think of several names unfit for print....

Bill, I was talking about the system, not necessarily our execution of it. FWIW, about week 8 or so Huard was in the top 5 in the NFL of completions of 20+ yards.

OnTheWarpath58
12-31-2007, 03:41 PM
I watched the game and I understand the line is horrible but Damon actually throws the ball down the field alot more than Brodie. Last week he came in and almost won the game for us even though Croyle was losing 16-0 when he got hurt

Dude, we were down by 3 scores.

What did you think we were going to do? Keep running the ball?

He wouldn't have had the time yesterday. Period.

It's moot point. This fanbase doesn;t deserve to pick Matt Ryan, because they won't give him the time necessary to develop.

If we're only giving Croyle 7 games, what are we giving a Top 5 pick who would be the cornerstone of the draft?

People would be expecting the next Roethlisberger.

bowener
12-31-2007, 03:41 PM
Now I'm listening to Casey Weigman talk about how "all the good guys from this team are gone" and then mention people like Eric Hicks....

It's nice to hear how we need more character guys like Eric Hicks, bah.

Is he talking about how all the talent is gone out of him?

Mecca
12-31-2007, 03:41 PM
They can be at other positions.......LT is likely going to require a pick in the first 2 rounds...the others especially the interior line can be had in any round.

Mecca
12-31-2007, 03:42 PM
Is he talking about how all the talent is gone out of him?

He basically sounded like he thought this team was full of no character pieces of shit while all the good guys who have character are gone.

OnTheWarpath58
12-31-2007, 03:43 PM
If quality offensive linemen can be found in rounds 3-7 then why the hell are most starting left tackles taken in the first 2 rounds?

Joe Thomas, round 1
Tony Ugoh, round 2
Marcus McNeill, round 2
Matt Light, round 2
Orlando Pace, round 1
Walter Jones, round 1
Jonathan Ogden, round 1
D'Brickashaw Ferguson, round 1
Jammal Brown, round 1
Michael Roos, round 2
Vernon Carey, round 1
Bryant McKinnie, round 1
Levi Jones, round 1
Jeff Backus, round 1
Chris Samuels, round 1
Chad Clifton, round 2
Marvel Smith, round 2
John Tait, round 1
William Thomas, round 1
Wayne Gandy, round 1
Khalif Barnes, round 2
Flozell Adams, round 2
Luke Petitgout, round 1

23 of 32 starting left tackles in the NFL were drafted in the 1st or 2nd round. Then when you add in tackles drafted in the 3rd round (Jonas Jennings, Travell Wharton, Mike Gandy, and Damion McIntosh) the number jumps to 27 of 32 starting NFL left tackles that were drafted in the first 3 rounds. But sure, Kevin, let's just ignore that trend and draft our left tackle on the 2nd day. I'm sure we will have the same luck as those 5 teams who found their left tackle outside of the first day of the draft.

Nice job cherry picking.

He didn't say LT. You did.

And he's right. You can get quality linemen later in the draft.

Go look up the Colts OL and get back to us on when they were drafted.

Cochise
12-31-2007, 03:44 PM
My point was the new O/C (should Solari be released) may bring in a new system that will/won't fit the personnel we have now.

The personnel don't fit any system. They stink. We have to replace most of them no matter what.


Look no further than the 2000 Chiefs. We had a 4,000 yd PB QB and the #5 passing attack in the NFL. Vermiel came in and did not like Grbac for his Ramifization plan and had Trent Green in mind all along. The rest is history.

What did Grbac get us that year... 9-7 or 7-9? What's the difference?

Even though Vermeil and Peterson did finally find someone who could play QB, they didn't care to fix the half of the roster on the other side of the ball


So the missing variable here is who will run the Chiefs offense and what kind of QB will fit that system? You're kidding yourself if you can't see Chad Pennington somewhere in that scenario...

The only person kidding themselves is you if you think some injury prone 33 year old, cast off from one of the worst teams in the league, is our franchise QB.

dirk digler
12-31-2007, 03:44 PM
Now I'm listening to Casey Weigman talk about how "all the good guys from this team are gone" and then mention people like Eric Hicks....

It's nice to hear how we need more character guys like Eric Hicks, bah.

Don't forget Richie Scanlon

bowener
12-31-2007, 03:44 PM
He basically sounded like he thought this team was full of no character pieces of shit while all the good guys who have character are gone.

Too bad it seems the character guys are all no-talent assclowns... is he hinting that he is a character type guy, because he has (after this season) fallen into the no-talent assclown category, and thus will follow up by being placed in the former Chiefs category as well.

WilliamTheIrish
12-31-2007, 03:45 PM
Bill, I was talking about the system, not necessarily our execution of it. FWIW, about week 8 or so Huard was in the top 5 in the NFL of completions of 20+ yards.

I know John. It's just finally...... over. I threw several shovels of dirt on the season yesterday. I'm hoping with some April rain it will grow us a 1st round QB.

Silock
12-31-2007, 03:45 PM
Okay, but we NEED a LT. Sure, we can fill out the line in other rounds, but the 1st rounder should be spent on LT, not QB.

OnTheWarpath58
12-31-2007, 03:45 PM
Now I'm listening to Casey Weigman talk about how "all the good guys from this team are gone" and then mention people like Eric Hicks....

It's nice to hear how we need more character guys like Eric Hicks, bah.

He really said that?

Attitudes like that are part of the problem.

Hope he ****ing retires.

Seriously.

We got rid of a bunch of the Vermeil-pampered whiners last year, let's finish the job this year.

I want FOOTBALL players, not candyasses.

patteeu
12-31-2007, 03:46 PM
Nice job cherry picking.

He didn't say LT. You did.

And he's right. You can get quality linemen later in the draft.

Go look up the Colts OL and get back to us on when they were drafted.

WTF? He said linemen, but you can't build a line without a LT. It's integral.

Mecca
12-31-2007, 03:46 PM
Don't forget Richie Scanlon

Roy was right, we suck because we don't have Rich Scanlon anymore.

dirk digler
12-31-2007, 03:46 PM
And that couldn't possibly be because of adjustments made elsewhere, could it?

Could be and I have been wondering if they call a different game when Damon is in there compared to Brodie. But they don't change out the O-line or the WR's so Huard is playing with the same crappy players

Woodrow Call
12-31-2007, 03:47 PM
He really said that?

Attitudes like that are part of the problem.

Hope he ****ing retires.

Seriously.

We got rid of a bunch of the Vermeil-pampered whiners last year, let's finish the job this year.

I want FOOTBALL players, not candyasses.

REP

Count Zarth
12-31-2007, 03:47 PM
Croyle's low yards per attempt has a lot more to do with the OC than anything Croyle does. You can clearly see they call a much more conservative offense with Croyle in the game, especially on the road. This was GLARING in Detroit, and makes no sense.

OnTheWarpath58
12-31-2007, 03:47 PM
Okay, but we NEED a LT. Sure, we can fill out the line in other rounds, but the 1st rounder should be spent on LT, not QB.

And when there isn't a LT worth of a Top 5 pick?

(God, please don't say Jake Long. I like you, I don't want to get angry with you.)

bowener
12-31-2007, 03:48 PM
He really said that?

Attitudes like that are part of the problem.

Hope he ****ing retires.

Seriously.

We got rid of a bunch of the Vermeil-pampered whiners last year, let's finish the job this year.

I want FOOTBALL players, not candyasses.
:clap:

dirk digler
12-31-2007, 03:49 PM
Dude, we were down by 3 scores.

What did you think we were going to do? Keep running the ball?

He wouldn't have had the time yesterday. Period.

It's moot point. This fanbase doesn;t deserve to pick Matt Ryan, because they won't give him the time necessary to develop.

If we're only giving Croyle 7 games, what are we giving a Top 5 pick who would be the cornerstone of the draft?

People would be expecting the next Roethlisberger.

I agree with Mecca if Croyle would have not been hurt we would have lost 40-3.

Listen I am not a Huard lover or a Croyle basher I just don't think he is a franchise QB.

It is time to draft one and if we fail we fail but at least we tried.

Silock
12-31-2007, 03:49 PM
And when there isn't a LT worth of a Top 5 pick?

(God, please don't say Jake Long. I like you, I don't want to get angry with you.)

If it's not there, you either trade down or take the BAA.

OnTheWarpath58
12-31-2007, 03:50 PM
WTF? He said linemen, but you can't build a line without a LT. It's integral.

But you don't use your Top 5 pick on a LT no matter what.

You can't reach on that pick based on need.

A move like that will only set the franchise back further.

This is really a moot point anyway, you know damn good and well they aren't going to move Mac to the other side.

Right or wrong, I guarantee they think they are set at LT for the next 5 years.

Mecca
12-31-2007, 03:51 PM
I agree with Mecca if Croyle would have not been hurt we would have lost 40-3.

Listen I am not a Huard lover or a Croyle basher I just don't think he is a franchise QB.

It is time to draft one and if we fail we fail but at least we tried.

Right now I feel like we have nothing, like we just wasted a year for nothing and have no future. At least if we were to draft Matt Ryan and failed we could go, at least we tried. I'd rather swing for the fences and try to win a championship instead of sitting here watching them build a mediocre team that even on it's best day isn't good enough.

cmh6476
12-31-2007, 03:52 PM
yeah because new england knew they struck gold when they drafted brady with an early draft pick

xbarretx
12-31-2007, 03:53 PM
Roy was right, we suck because we don't have Rich Scanlon anymore.
:Scanlon:

dirk digler
12-31-2007, 03:53 PM
Croyle's low yards per attempt has a lot more to do with the OC than anything Croyle does. You can clearly see they call a much more conservative offense with Croyle in the game, especially on the road. This was GLARING in Detroit, and makes no sense.

So why do you think they change the offense when Brodie is in?

Silock
12-31-2007, 03:53 PM
But you don't use your Top 5 pick on a LT no matter what.

I don't agree with that. If spending a top 5 pick on a LT will get us to a Super Bowl, or help get the pieces in place to do so, it's worth it.

bowener
12-31-2007, 03:54 PM
But you don't use your Top 5 pick on a LT no matter what.

You can't reach on that pick based on need.

A move like that will only set the franchise back further.

This is really a moot point anyway, you know damn good and well they aren't going to move Mac to the other side.

Right or wrong, I guarantee they think they are set at LT for the next 5 years.

God I hope this is wrong. If the coaching remains then yes this will no change, but if the coaches are gone and CP is as well, no more LT- DMac. Hell, he might be a pretty good RT, but I dobt Herm and Co. would ever try it t find ot... kinda like the Svitek RT thing.

el borracho
12-31-2007, 03:55 PM
a) You need a franchise QB to build a dynasty and have multiple SuperBowl appearances; you do not need a franchise QB to get to the SuperBowl.

b) There are no obvious franchise QBs in this draft, no Mannings or Palmers. This team has so many holes we might as well wait until next year (we will have a top ten pick, again) and give Croyle and Thigpen an extra year to flop while we pick up some talent.

OnTheWarpath58
12-31-2007, 03:55 PM
yeah because new england knew they struck gold when they drafted brady with an early draft pick


Yep.

KK should have left Brady out of the argument, it woul dhave been a much stronger one.

Brady fell into their laps, courtesy of Mo Lewis.

Without that hit on Bledsoe, Brady sits on the bench for another year or two and the Pats have at LEAST one less Lombardi trophy.

Mr. Laz
12-31-2007, 03:56 PM
that fact that somebody isn't already fired is a problem imo.


they have months of a completely stinky season to evaluate the situation and make decisions.


this tells me that Carl really is staying and that any changes made are going take place when Carl and Herm sit down and talk after the season.

Mecca
12-31-2007, 03:56 PM
yeah because new england knew they struck gold when they drafted brady with an early draft pick

Exception not the rule, you are much more likely go be the Colts and have taken your QB #1 than be the Pats...

Just like expecting a RB to be good after 400 carries is the exception not the rule. You play by the rules, not that you'll be the exception.

patteeu
12-31-2007, 03:56 PM
But you don't use your Top 5 pick on a LT no matter what.

You can't reach on that pick based on need.

A move like that will only set the franchise back further.

This is really a moot point anyway, you know damn good and well they aren't going to move Mac to the other side.

Right or wrong, I guarantee they think they are set at LT for the next 5 years.

Well I don't know about that last point at all, but I agree with you about not reaching. That goes for QB as well as LT though. I'm not smart enough (in this one narrow area ;) ) to evaluate which prospect is worthy of a #5 pick. Even professionals seem to get it wrong about as often as they get it right though so I'm not likely to take the word of the ChiefsPlanet draft gurus at this early juncture. I just hope whether they go QB or LT or DT or something else that they get it right.

My point in this thread was to criticize some of the logic that KK was using to support the idea that we should draft a QB. The same type of logic can be used to support the call for a LT. Neither is a solid argument. The only good argument has to do with the actual talent available. If all else is equal, then take the QB because it is the most important position on the team, but otherwise take the best guy available (preferably a lineman on either side of the ball or a QB).

kcfanXIII
12-31-2007, 03:57 PM
Another variable no one is talking about is the offensive system next year. KK believes Solari is history. What if the new OC comes in here and wants to run a variation of the Left Coast Offense? Can Croyle run the LCO? That makes acquiring a tested QB like McNabb or Chad all the more attractive to the FO.

In my mind, Croyle's greatest weakness is his inability to see the deep receivers. His YPA average is awful - more than a yard less than Huard's whom most people on this forum (ignorantly) castigate as a checkdown QB. Huard is a reasonably complete, mature QB who did just about everything that could be done with this O.

If we go to the LCO in '08 then a short-range semi-mobile QB like Croyle may succeed. If we stay with the vertical attack-the-seams Coryell system, I'd rather have a crusty old Huard who can throw the 40 yd attempt a few times than a QB getting about 5.7 yards per attempt.

LJ is not a receiving RB, therefore the west coast offense does not make sense here. mcnabb, although a proven winner, is the opposite of youth. this should make him LESS attractive to the FO. chad, is proven mediocre. i'm not going to beat the "hell no to chad" horse any more than it has already.

croyle may not be the answer, but don't sit here and act like huard is good. you say huard is a reasonably complete qb? he's immobile, quick to take a dive, his down field accuracy is terrible, his release is slow, and yes, he does check down way too often.

starting huard this season was the worst thing this franchise could have done. i called it in september. i said what would happen, i said with huard starting even 8 games, it still wouldn't be enough time to evaluate croyle, and going into the draft we still would have question marks.

because of the "win now" philosophy that HERL started the season with, instead of a true rebuilding mentality, we've wasted another season, and answered NONE of the question marks we had at QB.

now while i agree, croyle didn't show much improvement, i'm still not sold a qb is the right draft option for this draft. especially with the lack of a "can't miss" prospect.

OnTheWarpath58
12-31-2007, 03:57 PM
I don't agree with that. If spending a top 5 pick on a LT will get us to a Super Bowl, or help get the pieces in place to do so, it's worth it.

Hold on, lets make sure we're speaking about the same thing.

Are you saying that if the best LT in the upcoming draft was only the 15th best player on the board, you'd take the LT anyway based on need?

Mecca
12-31-2007, 03:58 PM
a) You need a franchise QB to build a dynasty and have multiple SuperBowl appearances; you do not need a franchise QB to get to the SuperBowl.

b) There are no obvious franchise QBs in this draft, no Mannings or Palmers. This team has so many holes we might as well wait until next year (we will have a top ten pick, again) and give Croyle and Thigpen an extra year to flop while we pick up some talent.

Go check the number of 1st round QB's that have made the bowl on the winning and losing side......the percentage is much greater than you'd expect if you count guys more than once since they went each time...

I think it's something like 70%.

WilliamTheIrish
12-31-2007, 03:59 PM
Yep.

KK should have left Brady out of the argument, it woul dhave been a much stronger one.

Brady fell into their laps, courtesy of Mo Lewis.

Without that hit on Bledsoe, Brady sits on the bench for another year or two and the Pats have at LEAST one less Lombardi trophy.

I'm not so sure you can just discount that (finding Brady late) so easily. When Bledsoe regained his health, the Pats didn't do what our franchise (most likely) would have done. They left Bledsoe on the bench and stayed with the guy that would lead them to 3 SB titles.

Baby Lee
12-31-2007, 03:59 PM
So it's straight for the premiere skill position advocates, versus the premiere LT advocates.

When we're talking about a 1st round selection, we're talking about a LT, and are evaluating the prospects ability to be a quality LT.

Pointing out the history of quality LTs and where they come from isn't cherry picking. Quite the opposite, trying to turn our position into 'every high pick for any O-lineman' is creating a straw man.

xbarretx
12-31-2007, 04:00 PM
Right now I feel like we have nothing, like we just wasted a year for nothing and have no future. At least if we were to draft Matt Ryan and failed we could go, at least we tried. I'd rather swing for the fences and try to win a championship instead of sitting here watching them build a mediocre team that even on it's best day isn't good enough.

true-dat, lets break from CP tradition !!!! :clap:

Mr. Laz
12-31-2007, 04:00 PM
switch Brody croyle and tom brady and people would be talking about how great Croyle was ....


the coaching and situation make or break most players .... especially at quarterback.


Herm/Solari would kill a young tom brady


not sure it matters who we draft unless we change coaches.

dirk digler
12-31-2007, 04:00 PM
that fact that somebody isn't already fired is a problem imo.


they have months of a completely stinky season to evaluate the situation and make decisions.


this tells me that Carl really is staying and that any changes made are going take place when Carl and Herm sit down and talk after the season.

Yep totally agree

Count Zarth
12-31-2007, 04:02 PM
LJ is not a receiving RB, therefore the west coast offense does not make sense here

LJ has fine receiving skills. He was much improved this year.

Mecca
12-31-2007, 04:02 PM
switch Brody croyle and tom brady and people would be talking about how great Croyle was ....


the coaching and situation make or break most players .... especially at quarterback.


Herm/Solari would kill a young tom brady


not sure it matters who we draft unless we change coaches.

I highly disagree with this, you take Brady off the Pats they aren't nearly as good...

Outside of Brady and Moss they really aren't that much more talented than any other team is. Watch Brady get them into the right play change plays all that the guy is the reason they go.

Right now in the salary cap era there are 2 things you need to win since all the teams talent is somewhat close...a great QB and great coaching, we have neither.

el borracho
12-31-2007, 04:03 PM
Go check the number of 1st round QB's that have made the bowl on the winning and losing side......the percentage is much greater than you'd expect if you count guys more than once since they went each time...

I think it's something like 70%.
Great! Hopefully, when we do that next year there will be a QB that merits our top ten pick.

OnTheWarpath58
12-31-2007, 04:04 PM
I'm not so sure you can just discount that (finding Brady late) so easily. When Bledsoe regained his health, the Pats didn't do what our franchise (most likely) would have done. They left Bledsoe on the bench and stayed with the guy that would lead them to 3 SB titles.


True, because they realized what they had.

If they had any clue Brady was that good, he would have played from the outset.

My point is that had Mo Lewis not re-arranged Drew Bledsoe's internal organs, the Patriots would have at least one fewer Lombardi's in the trophy case because they wouldn't have played Brady.

Silock
12-31-2007, 04:04 PM
Hold on, lets make sure we're speaking about the same thing.

Are you saying that if the best LT in the upcoming draft was only the 15th best player on the board, you'd take the LT anyway based on need?

Not if it was that far apart, but if he were the 6th or 7th best on my board, absolutely yes, provided that I was absolutely sure about him being able to excel on the NFL level.

The Chiefs have so many holes, though, I don't think we can go wrong drafting anything that's BAA in every round.

dirk digler
12-31-2007, 04:04 PM
Mitch Holthus is on 810 right now

Mr. Laz
12-31-2007, 04:05 PM
I highly disagree with this, you take Brady off the Pats they aren't nearly as good...

Outside of Brady and Moss they really aren't that much more talented than any other team is. Watch Brady get them into the right play change plays all that the guy is the reason they go.

Right now in the salary cap era there are 2 things you need to win since all the teams talent is somewhat close...a great QB and great coaching, we have neither.
i agree about Brady making the patriots great....


but i contend that Brady wouldn't be good enough to "make the patriots great" without the coaching and environment he was drafted and developed in.

Mecca
12-31-2007, 04:05 PM
Mitch is just gonna pull the line and say Croyle is the guy, he always does.

kcfanXIII
12-31-2007, 04:05 PM
LJ has fine receiving skills. He was much improved this year.


a west coast RB must be an exceptional receiver. LJ is not. sorry bout your man crush there gochiefs.

Mr. Laz
12-31-2007, 04:06 PM
Mitch Holthus is on 810 right now
another paid employee of the Kansas City Chiefs

dirk digler
12-31-2007, 04:06 PM
Holthus said the Chiefs are completely starting over of course it doesn't matter as long as Carl is here

Mecca
12-31-2007, 04:06 PM
Sometimes I wonder what Mitch really thinks.

Mr. Laz
12-31-2007, 04:07 PM
"clark won't speak for another week or 2"



too late then imo

Count Zarth
12-31-2007, 04:08 PM
a west coast RB must be an exceptional receiver. LJ is not. sorry bout your man crush there gochiefs.

LJ was on pace for 60 catches this year before he got hurt. He'd do fine in any system. He's too talented.

kcfanXIII
12-31-2007, 04:08 PM
"clark won't speak for another week or 2"



too late then imo

better then a YEAR or two, right?

dirk digler
12-31-2007, 04:08 PM
Changes are coming to the front office


I will believe it when I see it

Mecca
12-31-2007, 04:09 PM
LOL this thing Mitch is saying about Herm wanting to be explosive is making me laugh...

He's been a coach in the league what 7 years now? He's never once had an offense like that.

Deberg_1990
12-31-2007, 04:10 PM
"clark won't speak for another week or 2"





WTF??

Why wait so long??

Clark has had 17 weeks to evaluate...

dirk digler
12-31-2007, 04:10 PM
Next offense will be tough inside run team and be explosive on the outside.

Want to get a DBowe clone on the other side to free up Tony G

kcfanXIII
12-31-2007, 04:10 PM
LJ was on pace for 60 catches this year before he got hurt. He'd do fine in any system. He's too talented.

not talented enough to run behind a shitty o-line, with no passing game evidently.

Jim Jones
12-31-2007, 04:11 PM
5 of the starting QB's from the 12 playoff teams this season were first round picks. Although Eli Manning is one of them, so let's call it 4 since he sucks.

OnTheWarpath58
12-31-2007, 04:11 PM
"clark won't speak for another week or 2"



too late then imo


Too late for what?

It's already been established that Carl and Herm are safe.

What else do you want him to do?

Mr. Laz
12-31-2007, 04:12 PM
WTF??

Why wait so long??

Clark has had 17 weeks to evaluate...
because it's the status quo imo


if we were really making changes it would happen immediately imo

dirk digler
12-31-2007, 04:12 PM
I ****ing knew it.

They are going to build this team to be able to compete when the renovated stadium opens

ILChief
12-31-2007, 04:13 PM
If Jake Long is off the board and we stay at 4/5, I'd be alright with us taking Matt Ryan if he's there. He's the only QB in this class I want. Woodson and Brennan play in funky gimmick offenses and Brohm is just as if not more fragile than Croyle.

I would seriously call Cleveland and gauge their interest in trading Quinn. I haven't totally given up on Croyle, but I had hoped he would have improved more. Granted his line sucks and he's had alot of drops, but I thought he'd have at least one 250 yard, 2-3 TD game and he didn't sniff it.

kcfanXIII
12-31-2007, 04:13 PM
Too late for what?

It's already been established that Carl and Herm are safe.

What else do you want him to do?

i don't really believe their jobs are safe. if they were why wouldn't clark come out and say so?
IMO, he's waiting to find out who will be available before he decides to cut dumb and dumber loose.

OnTheWarpath58
12-31-2007, 04:13 PM
because it's the status quo imo


if we were really making changes it would happen immediately imo


The only changes he would make are Herm and/or Carl.

Since they are supposedly safe, the rest of the changes fall on Carl/Herm.

Those two will be doing the firing.

Deberg_1990
12-31-2007, 04:13 PM
because it's the status quo imo


if we were really making changes it would happen immediately imo

Agreed.

Look at Miami and Baltimore.

Mr. Laz
12-31-2007, 04:13 PM
Too late for what?

It's already been established that Carl and Herm are safe.

What else do you want him to do?
well i was still holding out hope that a big change might be made


also i'm a firm believer that you need to make any changes early.


example:

fire solari NOW so that if Cam Cameron becomes available you are on the phone the second he's released.



faster the changes the more choices you have for replacements

ChiefsCountry
12-31-2007, 04:14 PM
Cleveland is not going to trade Quinn. He is the future, I wouldnt be suprised to see him start next year for them.

Mecca
12-31-2007, 04:14 PM
I ****ing knew it.

They are going to build this team to be able to compete when the renovated stadium opens

If they think this team is gonna be ready in 2 years I got news for them...San Diego is still gonna be good and we may be behind the other 2 teams for that entire time.

Bob Dole
12-31-2007, 04:15 PM
The only changes he would make are Herm and/or Carl.

Since they are supposedly safe, the rest of the changes fall on Carl/Herm.

Those two will be doing the firing.

A new hope!

ILChief
12-31-2007, 04:15 PM
5 of the starting QB's from the 12 playoff teams this season were first round picks. Although Eli Manning is one of them, so let's call it 4 since he sucks.

and three of the others are Tom Brady, Tony Romo, and Brett Favre who were late round/undrafted miracles. I have no confidence in Carl finding that type of QB. If he ever does get a franchise QB, he'll have to draft one high and pray it's not a Ryan Leaf/Heath Shuler

ChiefsCountry
12-31-2007, 04:15 PM
and three of the others are Tom Brady, Tony Romo, and Brett Favre who were late round/undrafted miracles. I have no confidence in Carl finding that type of QB. If he ever does get a franchise QB, he'll have to draft one high and pray it's not a Ryan Leaf/Heath Shuler

Favre was a second round pick and the Pack gave up a first rounder to get him. Not a late rounder.

stevieray
12-31-2007, 04:16 PM
I ****ing knew it.

They are going to build this team to be able to compete when the renovated stadium opens


because that is sooooooooooo unrealistic.

just stop already. playing both sides of the fence is weak.

Mecca
12-31-2007, 04:16 PM
and three of the others are Tom Brady, Tony Romo, and Brett Favre who were late round/undrafted miracles. I have no confidence in Carl finding that type of QB. If he ever does get a franchise QB, he'll have to draft one high and pray it's not a Ryan Leaf/Heath Shuler

Brett Favre was a late round pick what? He was a 2nd rounder that spent 1 year in Atlanta that never played then Green Bay traded a 1st round pick for him.

OnTheWarpath58
12-31-2007, 04:16 PM
Jesus.

Even KK realizes that Herm didn't hire his coordinators.

Mr. Laz
12-31-2007, 04:17 PM
"offense is complicated and has no audible system"


jeebus farking chriss ....... this offense could be ran by a dammed high school team it's so basic.


holthus has bent over completely to receive Carl's member now. :shake:

Deberg_1990
12-31-2007, 04:17 PM
Brett Favre was a late round pick what? He was a 2nd rounder that spent 1 year in Atlanta that never played then Green Bay traded a 1st round pick for him.

The rumour is that Atlanta Traded Favre because he had a drinking problem back in those days...

KCJohnny
12-31-2007, 04:17 PM
.

croyle may not be the answer, but don't sit here and act like huard is good. you say huard is a reasonably complete qb? he's immobile, quick to take a dive, his down field accuracy is terrible, his release is slow, and yes, he does check down way too often.



Head to head, Huard outperformed Croyle. Look no further than the game last week when we were down 19-0 and Huard almost pulled it out.

ILChief
12-31-2007, 04:18 PM
Brett Favre was a late round pick what? He was a 2nd rounder that spent 1 year in Atlanta that never played then Green Bay traded a 1st round pick for him.

I thought he was later than that, my bad.

blueballs
12-31-2007, 04:19 PM
wasn't KK buried in his Bronco jacket
next to John Goodman

dirk digler
12-31-2007, 04:19 PM
because that is sooooooooooo unrealistic.

just stop already. playing both sides of the fence is weak.

Doesn't it bother you that everything this franchise is doing hinges on the renovations that is going on?

I have no idea what you are talking about playing both sides of the fence.

OnTheWarpath58
12-31-2007, 04:19 PM
I thought he was later than that, my bad.

That's OK.

You can replace Favre with Hasselbeck, who was a 6th round pick.

xbarretx
12-31-2007, 04:19 PM
Head to head, Huard outperformed Croyle. Look no further than the game last week when we were down 19-0 and Huard almost pulled it out.

close only counts in horseshoes and hand granades......

Huard is not the answer. Please Carl stop posting here!!! ;)

ottawa_chiefs_fan
12-31-2007, 04:20 PM
The rumour is that Atlanta Traded Favre because he had a drinking problem back in those days...
right - reference please?

KCJohnny
12-31-2007, 04:20 PM
Cleveland is not going to trade Quinn. He is the future, I wouldnt be suprised to see him start next year for them.

Great! Let's deal for Derrick Anderson then!

PBJ

blueballs
12-31-2007, 04:20 PM
HUTARD had Smith
Brokie had Battle

Mecca
12-31-2007, 04:21 PM
Mitch is now trying to say the QB's in the draft suck...and he's now going to bend over for Brodie.

ChiefsCountry
12-31-2007, 04:21 PM
Great! Let's deal for Derrick Anderson then!

PBJ

That would be dumber yet.

Mecca
12-31-2007, 04:21 PM
Boy if Mitch thinks Brodie's upside is Rich Gannon that isn't good enough....

Deberg_1990
12-31-2007, 04:22 PM
right - reference please?

Dont have one.

I think Jerry Glanville (the coach of the Falcons at the time) mentioned it in an interview earlier this year. I cant remember where i read it honestly.

xbarretx
12-31-2007, 04:22 PM
Great! Let's deal for Derrick Anderson then!

PBJ

scratch the Carl commment, thats what im talking about! :clap:

p.s. providing we didnt break the draft pick bank for him....:shake:

OnTheWarpath58
12-31-2007, 04:23 PM
right - reference please?

This article touches on his partying in Atlanta

http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=364891

stevieray
12-31-2007, 04:23 PM
Head to head, Huard outperformed Croyle. Look no further than the game last week when we were down 19-0 and Huard almost pulled it out.

and then we wonder why we never develop a QB....this is exactly why...he doesn't perform immediately...he's run out.

Just for once, I'm glad that we are sticking with developing our own QB, instead of always going to a washed up QB.

OnTheWarpath58
12-31-2007, 04:26 PM
and then we wonder why we never develop a QB....this is exactly why...he doesn't perform immediately...he's run out.

Just for once, I'm glad that we are sticking with developing our own QB, instead of always going to a washed up QB.

Just think about Ryan being drafted by KC.

If we only give a R3 pick 7 games, how many are we going to give a Top 5 pick that is expected to be the savior IMMEDIATELY?

blueballs
12-31-2007, 04:26 PM
HUTARD was a 1 year wonder too
some people never learn
Todd Collins is on fire give up a 2nd

OnTheWarpath58
12-31-2007, 04:27 PM
OK, Keitzman finally lost me with:

The Chiefs have drafted plenty of fine players.



ROFL ROFL ROFL

Deberg_1990
12-31-2007, 04:28 PM
If we only give a R3 pick 7 games, how many are we going to give a Top 5 pick that is expected to be the savior IMMEDIATELY?

Top 5 QB picks usually get 3 to prove themselves on average.

OnTheWarpath58
12-31-2007, 04:29 PM
Top 5 QB picks usually get 3 to prove themselves on average.

Not with this fanbase, that's my point.

People are going to assume that if we take a QB that high, it's because he's the next Peyton Manning.

Setting up for a HUGE disappointment.

Mecca
12-31-2007, 04:29 PM
Just think about Ryan being drafted by KC.

If we only give a R3 pick 7 games, how many are we going to give a Top 5 pick that is expected to be the savior IMMEDIATELY?

Depends on numerous factors, I don't think those guys are nearly as injury prone for one.

Also you are financially committed to that guy, I say 30 starts, 3 years for a top 10 QB....you can move on from Croyle quickly because you aren't financially committed to him..

dirk digler
12-31-2007, 04:31 PM
Holthus was talking about us drafting a WR with the 1st pick what was the guys name again?

Mecca
12-31-2007, 04:31 PM
OK, Keitzman finally lost me with:

The Chiefs have drafted plenty of fine players.



ROFL ROFL ROFL

I think his point is for all the Will Shields and Tony Gonzalez and players like that, if you don't get the QB they're great players that played for nothing their entire career.

Mecca
12-31-2007, 04:32 PM
Holthus was talking about us drafting a WR with the 1st pick what was the guys name again?

Limas Sweed, he's a big tall lanky guy that is injury prone...I don't feel there is a WR worth a top 15 pick let alone a top 10 pick.

xbarretx
12-31-2007, 04:33 PM
Depends on numerous factors, I don't think those guys are nearly as injury prone for one.

Also you are financially committed to that guy, I say 30 starts, 3 years for a top 10 QB....you can move on from Croyle quickly because you aren't financially committed to him..

and that is the brass tacks.

if we take a QB as our 4/5th pick.....providing its a good pick, id live with QB growing pains for the next few seasons. it builds toward the future of this team and thats what i want! not a dam back into the playoffs, not a dam getting embarrased in the first rd or in the AFC champ game. ((ignore bad spelling please ;)))

OnTheWarpath58
12-31-2007, 04:34 PM
Depends on numerous factors, I don't think those guys are nearly as injury prone for one.

Also you are financially committed to that guy, I say 30 starts, 3 years for a top 10 QB....you can move on from Croyle quickly because you aren't financially committed to him..

See, that's the difference with me.

If you're truly developing a QB, regardless of where you picked him, if you think he's the guy, you give him 3 years.

Period.

If you honestly think this fanbase is going to give Ryan 3 years after throwing Croyle under the bus after 7 starts you live in a fantasy world.

They'll expect more out of a guy we spend a Top 5 pick on, and they'll expect it IMMEDIATELY.

Count Zarth
12-31-2007, 04:34 PM
Sweed is supposed to be a late 1st/early 2nd pick if I'm not mistaken.

Who is the short guy that's the burner?

Stewie
12-31-2007, 04:34 PM
Rich Baldinger ripped the FO and coaches on Metro Sports. Watch it if you can because he says there's no leadership from the top down and it showed in the last few weeks of the season. He was not happy about what he's seen.

dirk digler
12-31-2007, 04:34 PM
Limas Sweed, he's a big tall lanky guy that is injury prone...I don't feel there is a WR worth a top 15 pick let alone a top 10 pick.

Thanks. That is not a good sign and I can't imagine the Chiefs drafting him but who knows

ChiefsCountry
12-31-2007, 04:35 PM
Sweed is supposed to be a late 1st/early 2nd pick if I'm not mistaken.

Who is the short guy that's the burner?

Jackson from Cal

Deberg_1990
12-31-2007, 04:35 PM
Actually, the only 1st round QB that i can remember that the Chiefs were is position to draft, that they passed on was Aaron Rodgers??

Most of the other highly touted ones in the past 19 years were drafted before we picked or they were busts anyways....

xbarretx
12-31-2007, 04:37 PM
See, that's the difference with me.

If you're truly developing a QB, regardless of where you picked him, if you think he's the guy, you give him 3 years.

Period.

If you honestly think this fanbase is going to give Ryan 3 years after throwing Croyle under the bus after 7 starts you live in a fantasy world.

They'll expect more out of a guy we spend a Top 5 pick on, and they'll expect it IMMEDIATELY.

no, this years bad b/c

--we didnt start Brodie from day 1.

--we gave Lazy-LJ a payday when we knew we had to rebuild

--CP's been here 19 years....not 17 or 18 but 19! :shake:

were rebuilding, lets do it right (assuming brodies not the man) lets stop with the half :cuss: and get it over with so we can break the ... no SB since #4 drought! (sp?)

kcfanXIII
12-31-2007, 04:38 PM
Head to head, Huard outperformed Croyle. Look no further than the game last week when we were down 19-0 and Huard almost pulled it out.
i said "don't act like huard is good." i said nothing about comparing him to croyle. which isn't a fair comparison anyways because croyle is still very young and inexperienced. continue to try and "win now" and you will be dead and buried before this team is good again.

Mecca
12-31-2007, 04:38 PM
See, that's the difference with me.

If you're truly developing a QB, regardless of where you picked him, if you think he's the guy, you give him 3 years.

Period.

If you honestly think this fanbase is going to give Ryan 3 years after throwing Croyle under the bus after 7 starts you live in a fantasy world.

They'll expect more out of a guy we spend a Top 5 pick on, and they'll expect it IMMEDIATELY.

Well my reasons are I don't think he'll ever last as far as being durable. I see to many red flags with Croyle, I see a lot of JP Losman in him, I just do.

You think the Browns were gonna give Anderson 3 years? If you weren't a first round pick you are probably going to have to be pretty impressive right away because a team is only gonna give you a short time to show you are the guy.

Mecca
12-31-2007, 04:39 PM
Actually, the only 1st round QB that i can remember that the Chiefs were is position to draft, that they passed on was Aaron Rodgers??

Most of the other highly touted ones in the past 19 years were drafted before we picked or they were busts anyways....

In the mediocre plan we employ you are never really high enough to draft a franchise QB, so that speaks to that.

Deberg_1990
12-31-2007, 04:42 PM
In the mediocre plan we employ you are never really high enough to draft a franchise QB, so that speaks to that.

Very true.

SDChief
12-31-2007, 04:45 PM
Not with this fanbase, that's my point.

People are going to assume that if we take a QB that high, it's because he's the next Peyton Manning.

Setting up for a HUGE disappointment.

And even Payton wasn't Payton Manning in his first year. People forget that the Colts LIVED in the celler for quite a while and dug themselves out. The Bengals, and the Chargers also were there for quite a while, and they both drafted the flavor of the month QB many years in a row. the Bengals finally found one, SD found one, and traded him away and have a mediocre one now. Just saying, no matter what, it isn't a guaranteed super bowl ticket to get a early first round qb. And the KC fans will expect one to perform immediatly and not give him time to grow. Cutler lost quite a few games last year (not sure of how many), but I know he didn't light it up right off the bat. I would give next year to Croyle. We have enough holes that we need the best player available when we pick in all the rounds. We need CBs in the worst way. a shut down CB would be nice.

Mecca
12-31-2007, 04:47 PM
Guess what, the fact that the Bengals and Colts fired on top 5 QB's more than once is testament that they know what you need to win.

Imagine what position the Colts would be in if they would have been scared to take Manning due to what happened to them with Jeff George.

kcgizmo
12-31-2007, 04:50 PM
I guess with all this logic the Cowboys should have thrown Troy Aikman to some other team after his first season, what was it - 1 and 15, Just pick a QB and coach the the kid I am not going to give up on Brodie right now, there is potential there. If all the QB'S were judge on there first season 90% of them would of never won a superbowl.

Mecca
12-31-2007, 04:51 PM
He was the #1 pick, big difference in that and a 3rd round pick with major questions coming out....

kcgizmo
12-31-2007, 04:52 PM
I guess I would need to ask, was there a QB coach devoted to him?

Donger
12-31-2007, 04:54 PM
As a football retard, it seems clear that the logical course of action is to take this Matt Ryan chap if he is available and still start Brodie next year, with the 2009 season being the deciding year.

Has any first round QB ever started for the team which drafted him the first year anyway?

King_Chief_Fan
12-31-2007, 04:54 PM
I agree with his assessment. Especially about Croyle. He might be a good back up. The Detroit game continues to stick out to me. 1 1/2 quarters of Croyle was absolute terrible. Huard throws for 305 yards the rest of the game. Croyle is a failed experiment....but his wife is hot.

Mecca
12-31-2007, 04:55 PM
As a football retard, it seems clear that the logical course of action is to take this Matt Ryan chap if he is available and still start Brodie next year, with the 2009 season being the deciding year.

Has any first round QB ever started for the team which drafted him the first year anyway?

We agree on this, so hey there ya go right?

jAZ
12-31-2007, 04:55 PM
0-6 was plenty of opportunity to see if the potential is there and it clearly is not.
Wrong.

King_Chief_Fan
12-31-2007, 04:56 PM
I agree with his assessment. Especially about Croyle. He might be a good back up. The Detroit game continues to stick out to me. 1 1/2 quarters of Croyle was absolute terrible. Huard throws for 305 yards the rest of the game. Croyle is a failed experiment....but his wife is hot.

on second thought, maybe a QB coach could help him. I forgot the culred dick is his coach.

Mecca
12-31-2007, 04:57 PM
Ok if you want Brodie Croyle, what QB would you compare him to? Name a QB he can be like, something where you see some sort of comparison in him...

Mr. Laz
12-31-2007, 04:58 PM
As a football retard, it seems clear that the logical course of action is to take this Matt Ryan chap if he is available and still start Brodie next year, with the 2009 season being the deciding year.

Has any first round QB ever started for the team which drafted him the first year anyway?
payton manning
eli manning
Tom Brady
Troy Aikman
Donovan McNabb
etc etc

Donger
12-31-2007, 04:59 PM
payton manning
eli manning
Tom Brady
Troy Aikman
Donovan McNabb
etc etc

Wow. Thanks. I didn't know that. From game one?

Messier
12-31-2007, 04:59 PM
Guess what, the fact that the Bengals and Colts fired on top 5 QB's more than once is testament that they know what you need to win.

Imagine what position the Colts would be in if they would have been scared to take Manning due to what happened to them with Jeff George.


The Bengals know what it takes to win?

xbarretx
12-31-2007, 04:59 PM
And even Payton wasn't Payton Manning in his first year. People forget that the Colts LIVED in the celler for quite a while and dug themselves out. The Bengals, and the Chargers also were there for quite a while, and they both drafted the flavor of the month QB many years in a row. the Bengals finally found one, SD found one, and traded him away and have a mediocre one now. Just saying, no matter what, it isn't a guaranteed super bowl ticket to get a early first round qb. And the KC fans will expect one to perform immediatly and not give him time to grow. Cutler lost quite a few games last year (not sure of how many), but I know he didn't light it up right off the bat. I would give next year to Croyle. We have enough holes that we need the best player available when we pick in all the rounds. We need CBs in the worst way. a shut down CB would be nice.

dude i like your logic but cutler is nothing more then mediocre. why must people constantly talk about him like he is the next Namith (sp?) or Unitas? (sp?) ...Montana, Elway, etc.

while its good to use cutler as a QB near to us do grow into there roles its safe to say Cutler still isnt "lighting it up"

jAZ
12-31-2007, 05:00 PM
SB winning teams build around a franchise QB
Brady and 4 other Pats are the only constants since 2001; the other 48 players have all been imported to build around Brady

I guess this means we should use one of our 6th rounders on the next Tom Brady, right?

jAZ
12-31-2007, 05:02 PM
Wow. Thanks. I didn't know that. From game one?
Are you asking the first year or the first game?

There are a lot more than that that started in their first year. John Beck did this season. JaMarcus Russell. Alex Smith last year.

Happens all the time during the first *season*.

Mecca
12-31-2007, 05:02 PM
The Bengals know what it takes to win?

More than we do right now......

Also for the constant Tom Brady shit, first of all he didn't play his first year, he got in his 2nd year.

2ndly he is an exception not a rule, you don't play to be the exception you play by the rules. Just like the LJ thing we didn't play by the rule there look what happened? Go look at the QB's that have won the Bowl or even made the Bowl...the vast majority of them were 1st round picks..

Say Tom Brady all you want fact is most teams get there by getting their 1st round QB.

You're more likely to build your team like the Colts did, than like the Pats did.

Mr. Laz
12-31-2007, 05:05 PM
Wow. Thanks. I didn't know that. From game one?
no ... just became the starter at some point in their 1st season

Donger
12-31-2007, 05:07 PM
Are you asking the first year or the first game?

There are a lot more than that that started in their first year. John Beck did this season. JaMarcus Russell. Alex Smith last year.

Happens all the time during the first *season*.

First game, first season.

Mr. Laz
12-31-2007, 05:09 PM
First game, first season.
oh ... no

those guys didn't take every snap their 1st season ... that's very rare.

Silock
12-31-2007, 05:10 PM
The Bengals know what it takes to win?

No kidding. They just said today that they wanted to blow up the whole thing and start over.

OnTheWarpath58
12-31-2007, 05:11 PM
I love the "we don't have anything invested in Croyle" talk.

Apparently, the Saints felt the same way about Marc Bulger.

The Ravens felt the same way about Derek Anderson.

The Packers felt the same way about Matt Hasselbeck.

Chargers - Brees

Packers - Rams- ??? - Kurt Warner

Niners - Garcia


Just to name a few.

The earliest pick out of that group is Brees at the end of R2. The rest were late or undrafted.

Other than the Packers, every one of those teams would be in much better shape had they not given up on these guys.

Messier
12-31-2007, 05:12 PM
More than we do right now......

Also for the constant Tom Brady shit, first of all he didn't play his first year, he got in his 2nd year.

2ndly he is an exception not a rule, you don't play to be the exception you play by the rules. Just like the LJ thing we didn't play by the rule there look what happened? Go look at the QB's that have won the Bowl or even made the Bowl...the vast majority of them were 1st round picks..

Say Tom Brady all you want fact is most teams get there by getting their 1st round QB.

You're more likely to build your team like the Colts did, than like the Pats did.


So like the Colts, or the Bengals, or even the Pats for that matter the key to becoming a super bowl team, or in the case of the Bengals, a team that can go to the playoffs once in, what, 20 years? is to be really really bad for, say ten years, as these teams were, get a lot of high draft picks, hope some of them are great, and when you have that many top five picks your bound to hit on some, then you're on your way. I actually don't disagree, being bad for a few years is a way to build a team, the chiefs have been trying hard not to do it this way, but they're trapped now, and have no choice.

DenverDanChiefsFan
12-31-2007, 05:12 PM
I wonder what his basis for saying this is. The other day I looked up all 41 winning superbowl lineups and found more LTs who started their careers with and were developed by the winning team than there were QBs.



One of the other 4 players that have been constants for that team is Matt Light, LT.



While true, out of something like 28 individuals who have started at LT for winning superbowl teams, 15 of them were taken in rounds 1 or 2.stop with the research - kk ranted so it's true. have to take it on faith.ROFL

Mecca
12-31-2007, 05:19 PM
No kidding. They just said today that they wanted to blow up the whole thing and start over.

Not at that position though...much easier to completely overhaul a team around a QB than to try to build a team without one.

Baby Lee
12-31-2007, 05:22 PM
You're more likely to build your team like the Colts did, than like the Pats did.
You're more likely to draft the next;

Jeff George
Andre Ware
Dan McGwire
David Klingler
Rick Mirer
Heath Shuler
Trent Dilfer
Kerry Collins
Jim Druckenmiller
Ryan Leaf
Tim Couch
Akili Smith
Cade McNown
Chad Pennington
David Carr
Joey Harrington
Kyle Boller

Than either.

and I'm not even counting Leftwich or Culpepper as busts, though they're long past being franchise QBs and did nothing to create a lasting foundation for their drafting team, or Vick, who's . . . you know.

Mecca
12-31-2007, 05:23 PM
I love the "we don't have anything invested in Croyle" talk.

Apparently, the Saints felt the same way about Marc Bulger.

The Ravens felt the same way about Derek Anderson.

The Packers felt the same way about Matt Hasselbeck.

Chargers - Brees

Packers - Rams- ??? - Kurt Warner

Niners - Garcia


Just to name a few.

The earliest pick out of that group is Brees at the end of R2. The rest were late or undrafted.

Other than the Packers, every one of those teams would be in much better shape had they not given up on these guys.

I don't think some of those guys would have done the same job with those teams they started on....it was time for the Niners to move from Garcia, he's alright but that's about it.

I also think there's some validity to Mike Martz offense just being QB friendly because they ran tons of guys in there and got performance.

To me the Chargers are the only team that you could really say made a bad choice but Rivers isn't finished at this point as a product either.

Mecca
12-31-2007, 05:25 PM
You're more likely to draft the next;

Jeff George
Andre Ware
Dan McGwire
David Klingler
Rick Mirer
Heath Shuler
Trent Dilfer
Kerry Collins
Jim Druckenmiller
Ryan Leaf
Tim Couch
Akili Smith
Cade McNown
Chad Pennington
David Carr
Joey Harrington
Kyle Boller

Than either.

and I'm not even counting Leftwich or Culpepper as busts, though they're long past being franchise QBs and did nothing to create a lasting foundation for their drafting team, or Vick, who's . . . you know.

Kerry Collins went to a SB but hey that doesn't count right?

But hey let's keep drafting on fear, so we can be mediocre and not win shit. Pull up the SB list look how many were first rounders, you have to be willing to take the risk to be a championship team, if you aren't you're the Carl Peterson 20 years of nothing Chiefs.

Messier
12-31-2007, 05:27 PM
You're more likely to draft the next;

Jeff George
Andre Ware
Dan McGwire
David Klingler
Rick Mirer
Heath Shuler
Trent Dilfer
Kerry Collins
Jim Druckenmiller
Ryan Leaf
Tim Couch
Akili Smith
Cade McNown
Chad Pennington
David Carr
Joey Harrington
Kyle Boller

Than either.

and I'm not even counting Leftwich or Culpepper as busts, though they're long past being franchise QBs and did nothing to create a lasting foundation for their drafting team, or Vick, who's . . . you know.


OB is the hardest position to evaluate. In some cases it's impossible.

dallaschiefsfan
12-31-2007, 05:28 PM
Ok...may have already been mentioned, but the most interesting part of KK's show was when Mitch chimed in. I didn't agree with his ideas that seemed to let Herm off the hook. But I completely agree with one thing. There is a law of averages at work when looking for your franchise QB.

Not only has this franchise failed to develop one guy...but they have refused to back up their QB's with potential franchise guys. In other words...you can downplay Ryan, Brohm and Woodson (who--by the way--has looked good today), but even if you draft one of these guys, you simply cannot have huard or other retreads being his backup.

I say keep Brodie...draft one of these three guys and take another "potential" guy in the 4th round. Heck...we have 10 freakin' picks. The law of averages now gives you a chance that one of these three might be a franchise QB . I think Holtus' point that the Chiefs have failed in this area (having backups that are potential franchise guys) was his most meaningful addition to some of KK's talking points

Baby Lee
12-31-2007, 05:35 PM
Kerry Collins went to a SB but hey that doesn't count right?
So did Shuler, but neither are the foundational type of player you're hyping.

But hey let's keep drafting on fear, so we can be mediocre and not win shit. Pull up the SB list look how many were first rounders, you have to be willing to take the risk to be a championship team, if you aren't you're the Carl Peterson 20 years of nothing Chiefs.
It's not fear, it's playing the numbers. First round QB busts outnumber QB franchise backs 3-1, and immense busts nearly 2-1.
That said, I'm not putting a kibosh on drafting a top pcik QB, I'm against taking a consensus 'can't miss' guybased on anything other than our own scouting department's assessment of how he fits the team they want to forge. I don't care how much Kiper screams that somebody's a sure-fire franchise back, they're never right.

siberian khatru
12-31-2007, 05:35 PM
Ok...may have already been mentioned, but the most interesting part of KK's show was when Mitch chimed in. I didn't agree with his ideas that seemed to let Herm off the hook. But I completely agree with one thing. There is a law of averages at work when looking for your franchise QB.

Not only has this franchise failed to develop one guy...but they have refused to back up their QB's with potential franchise guys. In other words...you can downplay Ryan, Brohm and Woodson (who--by the way--has looked good today), but even if you draft one of these guys, you simply cannot have huard or other retreads being his backup.

I say keep Brodie...draft one of these three guys and take another "potential" guy in the 4th round. Heck...we have 10 freakin' picks. The law of averages now gives you a chance that one of these three might be a franchise QB . I think Holtus' point that the Chiefs have failed in this area (having backups that are potential franchise guys) was his most meaningful addition to some of KK's talking points

That's a legit point.

Why can't Mecca be so lucid and persuasive? :p

stevieray
12-31-2007, 05:36 PM
Doesn't it bother you that everything this franchise is doing hinges on the renovations that is going on?

I have no idea what you are talking about playing both sides of the fence.

No, honestly I think that (or at least hoping) after knowing that Carl and Herm are here, he's already working on the trainwreck..

Carl has been spinning his wheels since Marty...Gunther was last minute because Vermiel turned him down, and when he did come back, it cost us picks(players)...coupled with a win now at all costs, paid for with a crappy D, poor drafts, relying on FA, and maintaining players past their worth(pride and loyalty)...I can't believe how so many knew this was coming and even being twenty years overdue, people act like it's watching their kid play basketball, knowing he can't shoot, then getting pissed off when he plays poorl...us almost hitting rock bottom is where we are and where we deserve to be, because it forces you to build from the ground up...

I think that the youth movement and homegrown Chiefs attitude is why Herm was brought here, and is forcing Carl's hand...until a few days ago, you never heard CP adamant about sticking with the commitment to youth...his last gasp win now elephant was in the room for the whole country to see when he squelched Herm trying to pull the trigger on Brodie during camp...biggest single mistake made this season, only because the growing anynomosity is so great and the choice carrying so much clout, now the same people who were willing to go through the rough times with him, are now declaring him a bust and trying to put us right back where we've been for twenty years...not developing our own qb..and no closer to a foundation....everbody knew the line sucked, and yet still expected him to excel, because eleventybilion year veteran Brett Favre would've...

I think Herm has three years to rebuild the team, and has certain goals to meet..I think he's expected to build a core and to be on the upswing by the third year, or someone else will take the reins, I think Carl is under more pressure than ever to produce a serious contender by the re-opening of the stadium....Carl might be known for helping Lamar reach his dream with the remodeling, but he's not going to be there other than the first year.

BigMeatballDave
12-31-2007, 05:38 PM
Great! Let's deal for Derrick Anderson then!

PBJPlease stop. NO. Overrated.

BigMeatballDave
12-31-2007, 05:39 PM
scratch the Carl commment, thats what im talking about! :clap:

p.s. providing we didnt break the draft pick bank for him....:shake:Overrated.

ChiefsCountry
12-31-2007, 05:42 PM
No, honestly I think that (or at least hoping) after knowing that Carl and Herm are here, he's already working on the trainwreck..

Carl has been spinning his wheels since Marty...Gunther was last minute because Vermiel turned him down, and when he did come back, it cost us picks(players)...coupled with a win now at all costs, paid for with a crappy D, poor drafts, relying on FA, and maintaining players past their worth(pride and loyalty)...I can't believe how so many knew this was coming and even being twenty years overdue, people act like it's watching their kid play basketball, knowing he can't shoot, then getting pissed off when he plays poorlyHello - commatard on the loose.,us almost hitting rock bottom is where we are and where we deserve to be, because it forces you to build from the ground up...

I think that the youth movement and homegrown Chiefs attitude is why Herm was brought here, and is forcing Carl's hand...until a few days ago, you never heard CP adamant about sticking with the commitment to youth...his last gasp win now elephant was in the room for the whole country to see when he squelched Herm trying to pull the trigger on Brodie during camp...biggest single mistake made this season, only because the growing anynomosity is so great and the choice carrying so much clout, now the same people who were willing to go through the rough times with him, are now declaring him a bust and trying to put us right back where we've been for twenty years...not developing our own qb..and no closer to a foundation....everbody knew the line sucked, and yet still expected him to excel, because eleventybilion year veteran Brett Favre would've...

I think Herm has three years to rebuild the team, and has certain goals to meet..I think he's expected to build a core and to be on the upswing by the third year, or someone else will take the reins, I think Carl is under more pressure than ever to produce a serious contender by the re-opening of the stadium....Carl might be known for helping Lamar reach his dream with the remodeling, but he's not going to be there other than the first year.

Great post FDE, finally some voice of reason behind a post.

Mecca
12-31-2007, 05:42 PM
So did Shuler, but neither are the foundational type of player you're hyping.


It's not fear, it's playing the numbers. First round QB busts outnumber QB franchise backs 3-1, and immense busts nearly 2-1.
That said, I'm not putting a kibosh on drafting a top pcik QB, I'm against taking a consensus 'can't miss' guybased on anything other than our own scouting department's assessment of how he fits the team they want to forge. I don't care how much Kiper screams that somebody's a sure-fire franchise back, they're never right.

And the amount of QB hits in the first round outnumber every other combined, how about that?

siberian khatru
12-31-2007, 05:45 PM
No, honestly I think that (or at least hoping) after knowing that Carl and Herm are here, he's already working on the trainwreck..

Carl has been spinning his wheels since Marty...Gunther was last minute because Vermiel turned him down, and when he did come back, it cost us picks(players)...coupled with a win now at all costs, paid for with a crappy D, poor drafts, relying on FA, and maintaining players past their worth(pride and loyalty)...I can't believe how so many knew this was coming and even being twenty years overdue, people act like it's watching their kid play basketball, knowing he can't shoot, then getting pissed off when he plays poorl...us almost hitting rock bottom is where we are and where we deserve to be, because it forces you to build from the ground up...

I think that the youth movement and homegrown Chiefs attitude is why Herm was brought here, and is forcing Carl's hand...until a few days ago, you never heard CP adamant about sticking with the commitment to youth...his last gasp win now elephant was in the room for the whole country to see when he squelched Herm trying to pull the trigger on Brodie during camp...biggest single mistake made this season, only because the growing anynomosity is so great and the choice carrying so much clout, now the same people who were willing to go through the rough times with him, are now declaring him a bust and trying to put us right back where we've been for twenty years...not developing our own qb..and no closer to a foundation....everbody knew the line sucked, and yet still expected him to excel, because eleventybilion year veteran Brett Favre would've...

I think Herm has three years to rebuild the team, and has certain goals to meet..I think he's expected to build a core and to be on the upswing by the third year, or someone else will take the reins, I think Carl is under more pressure than ever to produce a serious contender by the re-opening of the stadium....Carl might be known for helping Lamar reach his dream with the remodeling, but he's not going to be there other than the first year.

One of your finest posts ever, Stevie.

dirk digler
12-31-2007, 05:46 PM
No, honestly I think that (or at least hoping) after knowing that Carl and Herm are here, he's already working on the trainwreck..

Carl has been spinning his wheels since Marty...Gunther was last minute because Vermiel turned him down, and when he did come back, it cost us picks(players)...coupled with a win now at all costs, paid for with a crappy D, poor drafts, relying on FA, and maintaining players past their worth(pride and loyalty)...I can't believe how so many knew this was coming and even being twenty years overdue, people act like it's watching their kid play basketball, knowing he can't shoot, then getting pissed off when he plays poorlyHello - commatard on the loose.,us almost hitting rock bottom is where we are and where we deserve to be, because it forces you to build from the ground up...

I think that the youth movement and homegrown Chiefs attitude is why Herm was brought here, and is forcing Carl's hand...until a few days ago, you never heard CP adamant about sticking with the commitment to youth...his last gasp win now elephant was in the room for the whole country to see when he squelched Herm trying to pull the trigger on Brodie during camp...biggest single mistake made this season, only because the growing anynomosity is so great and the choice carrying so much clout, now the same people who were willing to go through the rough times with him, are now declaring him a bust and trying to put us right back where we've been for twenty years...not developing our own qb..and no closer to a foundation....everbody knew the line sucked, and yet still expected him to excel, because eleventybilion year veteran Brett Favre would've...

I think Herm has three years to rebuild the team, and has certain goals to meet..I think he's expected to build a core and to be on the upswing by the third year, or someone else will take the reins, I think Carl is under more pressure than ever to produce a serious contender by the re-opening of the stadium....Carl might be known for helping Lamar reach his dream with the remodeling, but he's not going to be there other than the first year.

Great post Stevie and I can't argue any part of that.

The only reason I and many others think drafting a QB this year is because we have alot of concerns about Brodie staying healthy for an entire season. I am of the opinion that if the Chiefs feel there is a franchise QB in the draft and they have chance to grab that guy then they have to do it because in order to win the SB your chances are alot better with a franchise QB. Also from Holthus comments today it appears they are completely starting over so now is the time to draft one if we are going to do it. But if they feel Brodie is the franchise QB then we need roll with him and see what happens.

Great post and I really appreciate your comments.

dallaschiefsfan
12-31-2007, 05:46 PM
That's a legit point.

Why can't Mecca be so lucid and persuasive? :p

I'll go further. It's only by my aforementioned philosophy that you can POTENTIALLY avert the 66% dud first round QB's, injury to your franchise QB (think Theisman) OR...God forbid...your QB pulls the Michael Vick equivalent. You always have to have 3 deep at QB that have the POTENTIAL to be a franchise QB. I'm completely done with the steady veteran backups. They aren't worth the long-term pain to a franchise. By the way...does Manning have Steve Deberg as his backup? NO! Jim freakin' Sorgi...a 4 year guy that's 27 and in no way a DeBerg type. He will probably never be a franchise QB in Indy...but he has more of a shot than Huard would have if he were their backup.

BigMeatballDave
12-31-2007, 05:47 PM
I love the "we don't have anything invested in Croyle" talk.

Apparently, the Saints felt the same way about Marc Bulger.

The Ravens felt the same way about Derek Anderson.

The Packers felt the same way about Matt Hasselbeck.

Chargers - Brees

Packers - Rams- ??? - Kurt Warner

Niners - Garcia


Just to name a few.

The earliest pick out of that group is Brees at the end of R2. The rest were late or undrafted.

Other than the Packers, every one of those teams would be in much better shape had they not given up on these guys.Overrated.

Mecca
12-31-2007, 05:47 PM
If you are truly starting over it then it all starts at QB...it starts there. You don't build the rest of your team and go "well we can get by with this QB"

OnTheWarpath58
12-31-2007, 05:48 PM
No, honestly I think that (or at least hoping) after knowing that Carl and Herm are here, he's already working on the trainwreck..

Carl has been spinning his wheels since Marty...Gunther was last minute because Vermiel turned him down, and when he did come back, it cost us picks(players)...coupled with a win now at all costs, paid for with a crappy D, poor drafts, relying on FA, and maintaining players past their worth(pride and loyalty)...I can't believe how so many knew this was coming and even being twenty years overdue, people act like it's watching their kid play basketball, knowing he can't shoot, then getting pissed off when he plays poorl...us almost hitting rock bottom is where we are and where we deserve to be, because it forces you to build from the ground up...

I think that the youth movement and homegrown Chiefs attitude is why Herm was brought here, and is forcing Carl's hand...until a few days ago, you never heard CP adamant about sticking with the commitment to youth...his last gasp win now elephant was in the room for the whole country to see when he squelched Herm trying to pull the trigger on Brodie during camp...biggest single mistake made this season, only because the growing anynomosity is so great and the choice carrying so much clout, now the same people who were willing to go through the rough times with him, are now declaring him a bust and trying to put us right back where we've been for twenty years...not developing our own qb..and no closer to a foundation....everbody knew the line sucked, and yet still expected him to excel, because eleventybilion year veteran Brett Favre would've...

I think Herm has three years to rebuild the team, and has certain goals to meet..I think he's expected to build a core and to be on the upswing by the third year, or someone else will take the reins, I think Carl is under more pressure than ever to produce a serious contender by the re-opening of the stadium....Carl might be known for helping Lamar reach his dream with the remodeling, but he's not going to be there other than the first year.


Great post to start my New Years celebration with.

Good job, Stevie. HNY.

ChiefsCountry
12-31-2007, 05:52 PM
If you are truly starting over it then it all starts at QB...it starts there. You don't build the rest of your team and go "well we can get by with this QB"

Other than the Dallas Cowboys of the 90's, the rest of the teams had the pieces in place then got the quarterback.

Colts had Glenn and Harrison already, then added Manning.
Patriots had thier team then Brady came in.
Steelers had their team in place besides Big Ben.

Heck the Bengals had Chad Johnson and Rudi Johnson in place.

Mecca
12-31-2007, 05:55 PM
Those teams were all bad enough even with those players to still be picking #1..other than the Pats who got truly lucky.

Hell you could say the Chiefs have Dwayne Bowe.

dallaschiefsfan
12-31-2007, 05:59 PM
Other than the Dallas Cowboys of the 90's, the rest of the teams had the pieces in place then got the quarterback.

Colts had Glenn and Harrison already, then added Manning.
Patriots had thier team then Brady came in.
Steelers had their team in place besides Big Ben.

Heck the Bengals had Chad Johnson and Rudi Johnson in place.

This is a little misleading. The colts roster turned over a ton before they actually went to the superbowl, Harrison being one of the exceptions.

The Patriots already had their franchise QB...his name was Drew Bledsoe. Brady came in AFTER they had already built a team AROUND Drew. They have since built the team AGAIN around Brady.

The Steelers might be your only legit example, except they tried to build around the insane idea that Kordell Stewart was their franchise guy for years.

The Bengals are a bad example...because they haven't even been to the Super Bowl...so if we're aiming for the superbowl, I don't want to yield to their approach. Besides, didn't Lovie say that they're about to "blow it all up" in Cinci? I bet they blow it up...but still build it around Palmer.

Deberg_1990
12-31-2007, 06:02 PM
You don't build the rest of your team and go "well we can get by with this QB"


Then you end up with past their primes Steve Deberg, Dave Krieg, Joe Montana or Steve Bono as your QB's.

xbarretx
12-31-2007, 06:04 PM
Overrated.

i'd take him over Damon

BigMeatballDave
12-31-2007, 06:04 PM
i'd take him over DamonLMAO

ChiefsCountry
12-31-2007, 06:05 PM
This is a little misleading. The colts roster turned over a ton before they actually went to the superbowl, Harrison being one of the exceptions.


They turned over their defense but the core of the team was Manning, Harrison, and Glenn.

OnTheWarpath58
12-31-2007, 06:06 PM
i'd take him over Damon

And Baltimore would sure as hell take him over Boller or McInjured.

dallaschiefsfan
12-31-2007, 06:18 PM
They turned over their defense but the core of the team was Manning, Harrison, and Glenn.

Still doesn't matter. If Manning isn't their QB (or similar), Glenn and Harrison's chance for the SB are severely downsized. We're arguing order here. They need a good LT...no doubt. I just happen to believe that the QB process needs to start first for the CHIEFS...because we don't have a good record on developing QB's while our record for developing good linemen is dramatically better.

Someone already said this...but we have a potential Harrison in Bowe. No need to revisit WR in the first round.

xbarretx
12-31-2007, 06:19 PM
And Baltimore would sure as hell take him over Boller or McInjured.

i agree, but no clue why bigchiefdave seems to think anyone over Huard is insanity :rolleyes:

dallaschiefsfan
12-31-2007, 06:23 PM
As an aside...while Jake Long might be attractive to some...he makes me nervous as a "can't miss" NFL LT. Many believe he's more suited for RT. The truth is that he might be solid at LT and exceptional at RT. This warrants more of a risk with our first pick then any of the three QB's do. If you're going to take a LT in the first five picks, he better be Willie Roaf II.

Al Bundy
12-31-2007, 06:24 PM
Again, a QB can't do everything. The QB cannot throw it and catch it at the same time. The QB cannot throw it and block at the same time.

Look at Cleveland. They had a shitty line last year. They upgraded their line, and it was improved. The problem was obvious, which was Charlie Frye. They made the right choice of getting rid of him, and playing Derek Anderson.

Croyle is NOT the problem.

Every superbowl winning team has that QB and by that I mean you win more than 1, you have THAT QB. Brodie Croyle is not that QB.

KC Tattoo
12-31-2007, 06:24 PM
I still like ya Brodie. I'm sure Brady Quinn would have done just fine behind this F***ING PATHETIC OLINE and no running back or running game or WRs that drop balls.



You're all insane if you don't think Brodie's got it. Bunch of dumb asses IMO. Give him a break and get him some help build the team around Brodie and he will be awesome I fn Know it. He makes good throws sure he makes mistakes BFD it's his first year GD playing BEHIND this O-line and SHIIT!!!

Brodie proved he is not made of glass or he would not have gotten up after being smacked down on his sacks and being hit. Brodie got back up and finneshed the game. He took some hard hits and still gets back up. He is going to have this off season to make himself better, study film of his delivery, so he can work on his touch too.

BigMeatballDave
12-31-2007, 06:28 PM
i agree, but no clue why bigchiefdave seems to think anyone over Huard is insanity :rolleyes:I don't care for Huard, I don't care for Anderson, either. Some think Anderson is great QB. I think he's overrated. Living in Ohio, I watch the Browns alot. Anderson is in a great situation. Put him on this team, and he would make Croyle look good.

dallaschiefsfan
12-31-2007, 06:34 PM
I still like ya Brodie. I'm sure Brady Quinn would have done just fine behind this F***ING PATHETIC OLINE and no running back or running game or WRs that drop balls.



You're all insane if you don't think Brodie's got it. Bunch of dumb asses IMO. Give him a break and get him some help build the team around Brodie and he will be awesome I fn Know it. He makes good throws sure he makes mistakes BFD it's his first year GD playing BEHIND this O-line and SHIIT!!!

Brodie proved he is not made of glass or he would not have gotten up after being smacked down on his sacks and being hit. Brodie got back up and finneshed the game. He took some hard hits and still gets back up. He is going to have this off season to make himself better, study film of his delivery, so he can work on his touch too.

Perhaps. I'd love to see him grow and develop. I just don't see how drafting a first round QB prevents this. If he can't compete with Brohm, Ryan or Woodson in training camp...then so be it. He'll need competition from other young QB's (besides the likes of Printers)...not old guys. You can't compare a veteran with young guys. Experience will always make the competition skewed. Let three young bucks fight it out...I'd love to see that sort of quarterback controversy.

Buehler445
12-31-2007, 06:37 PM
Good discussion, men.

A couple of points to consider before you read my comments:
I don't know shit about quarterbacks. I admit it. If you think I'm wrong, you're probably right.
I believe Herm and Carl et al. are terrible at their jobs and hindering the ability of the Chiefs to develop a winner.
When the team is this bad, I firmly believe you draft BPA.


I'll approch this a little differently. I have seen all of the big 3 QBs coming out this year, and frankly I haven't seen anyone that has been head and shoulders above Croyle. They have had more compitent offenses compared to the competition, but as far as their skills, I haven't seen anyone that looks like more of a lock than Croyle.

Croyle has made bonehead plays, stared down a receiver or two, and lacked touch on some balls. But so have Brohm, Woodson, and Ryan. As far as durability goes, I cannot refute your comments, but I guess I am suggesting that it is a risk that I am willing to take for at least a year.

If I'm wrong, and one of these dudes is worth a #5, then stick to BPA and take him. But don't take him because he is a QB and we are choosing 5. This team needs a lot of fixing, and I'm sure that there are lots of players at 5 that could help our rediculously bad team. From what I've seen these three dudes are not that much better than Croyle that we can't afford to wait a year to see if Croyle is legit. JMO.

Mecca
12-31-2007, 06:39 PM
And Baltimore would sure as hell take him over Boller or McInjured.

Croyle reminds me a lot of Kyle Boller.....they have basically the same skill set.

Calcountry
12-31-2007, 06:41 PM
The entire premise is flawed. Winning a Super Bowl is not Peterson's goal.Peterson tried to draft a franchise QB once, he passed up Dan Marino and settled for Todd Blackledge.

I believe the Peterson name is cursed. Look at all the Peterson's that are up on murder charges.

We got stuck with one for G.M.

snatch
12-31-2007, 06:43 PM
Croyle reminds me a lot of Kyle Boller.....they have basically the same skill set.Great comparison!

Mecca
12-31-2007, 06:45 PM
I wonder if Croyle can throw it from his knee threw the Goal post from the 50...

KC Tattoo
12-31-2007, 06:46 PM
Perhaps. I'd love to see him grow and develop. I just don't see how drafting a first round QB prevents this. If he can't compete with Brohm, Ryan or Woodson in training camp...then so be it. He'll need competition from other young QB's (besides the likes of Printers)...not old guys. You can't compare a veteran with young guys. Experience will always make the competition skewed. Let three young bucks fight it out...I'd love to see that sort of quarterback controversy.

I don't have a problem with drafting or finding a young QB for compitition but for people going on about Croyle is no good pisses me off becouse he is a good QB on a bad football team and he still needs to learn the game so he can make himself better that is all. How fair is it to Brodie if we draft a QB first and then playing catch up the rest of the day to find that O-lineman that is going to make everything better? How fair is it to put any QB behind the O-line that Huard and Brodie were put behind?

Build this O-line so that Brodie can be successfull and then If Brodie fails we will have a chance to get another QB with a O-line ready for the next guy. But I believe in Brodie that he can take us to the Super Bowl, it won't be next year or the year after that but he can be our QB to do it as soon as the Pats & Colts break down./ That could be awile but give Brodie the time and be patient he will become a Super Bowl winning QB.

Mecca
12-31-2007, 06:47 PM
What has he done to show he's "a good QB"? At best he's an unknown entity at QB.

dallaschiefsfan
12-31-2007, 06:48 PM
Good discussion, men.

A couple of points to consider before you read my comments:
I don't know shit about quarterbacks. I admit it. If you think I'm wrong, you're probably right.
I believe Herm and Carl et al. are terrible at their jobs and hindering the ability of the Chiefs to develop a winner.
When the team is this bad, I firmly believe you draft BPA.


I'll approch this a little differently. I have seen all of the big 3 QBs coming out this year, and frankly I haven't seen anyone that has been head and shoulders above Croyle. They have had more compitent offenses compared to the competition, but as far as their skills, I haven't seen anyone that looks like more of a lock than Croyle.

Croyle has made bonehead plays, stared down a receiver or two, and lacked touch on some balls. But so have Brohm, Woodson, and Ryan. As far as durability goes, I cannot refute your comments, but I guess I am suggesting that it is a risk that I am willing to take for at least a year.

If I'm wrong, and one of these dudes is worth a #5, then stick to BPA and take him. But don't take him because he is a QB and we are choosing 5. This team needs a lot of fixing, and I'm sure that there are lots of players at 5 that could help our rediculously bad team. From what I've seen these three dudes are not that much better than Croyle that we can't afford to wait a year to see if Croyle is legit. JMO.

I don't think you're as ignorant as you think. However, I simply think it is a percentage game at this point. Will we have 10 draft picks any time soon again? Well...while there's always the chance for a first round QB to be a bust, there is a probably a better chance of hitting on undervalued non-QB's in later rounds vs. finding a Brady or Romo. It's not a guarantee...just playing percentages. Plus...as I've said before, you can't have too many potential franchise QB's on this roster. Take one in the first AND in the fourth, unless someone thinks Thigpen needs a legit look.

Of course...all this is predicated on the fact that we could draft worth a darn in later rounds...which I have no confidence in.

xbarretx
12-31-2007, 06:49 PM
I don't care for Huard, I don't care for Anderson, either. Some think Anderson is great QB. I think he's overrated. Living in Ohio, I watch the Browns alot. Anderson is in a great situation. Put him on this team, and he would make Croyle look good.

true-dat, my bad. good call

dallaschiefsfan
12-31-2007, 06:49 PM
What has he done to show he's "a good QB"? At best he's an unknown entity at QB.

Agreed. This does not mean he could not become great...it just means that it's illogical to assume that a line is the only thing holding him back.

Mecca
12-31-2007, 06:50 PM
This late round QB stuff makes me laugh...so you think you are gonna be the exception right? For every 100 guys that get picked at QB in the 2nd day how many work out 1 or 2? For anyone who goes "look at all the first round busts" the percentages on the 2nd day get far worse.

dallaschiefsfan
12-31-2007, 06:52 PM
This late round QB stuff makes me laugh...so you think you are gonna be the exception right? For every 100 guys that get picked at QB in the 2nd day how many work out 1 or 2? For anyone who goes "look at all the first round busts" the percentages on the 2nd day get far worse.

You weren't referring to my above were you? If so, you read it wrong.

Mecca
12-31-2007, 06:57 PM
You weren't referring to my above were you? If so, you read it wrong.

Just a general comment, if it was really something that was common like Brady or Romo and how often it gets brought up when talking 1st round QB's....

Then why do so many franchises feel they must take them with #1 picks, that should tell you how lucky a team with a late round guy is.

KC Tattoo
12-31-2007, 06:57 PM
What has he done to show he's "a good QB"? At best he's an unknown entity at QB.


And so is all players in the draft.

Tony Gonzo didn't do so well his first year as a Chief, but he had opportunity to stick with it and now is the best TE in football ever.

Ha ha, so how is Matt Leineart (sp) doing for the Cardnells? He was a top prospect first rounder and apparently he sucks, his new head coach thought he sucked and did some QB tinkering and the Matt gets hurt. Matt Leinearat (sp) is now injury prone BTW. Didn't finesh the season. So you never know injuries are part of the game and Peyton Manning & Tom Brady aren't imune to "fluke" injuries. Brodie suffered some injuries but came back and is able to take the shots and sacks and gets right back up. Brodie needs to learn the game. That is what he lacks is experiense but he can learn. He did improve some he didn't throw an INT in his last game so he can have a complete game. Brodie has all the tallent he just needs to learn the game and he will make himself better this offseason by watching film and PRACTICE, he is going to have the opportunity to practice with D Bowe for the whole offseason and TC. How cool is that?

Adept Havelock
12-31-2007, 06:59 PM
Peterson tried to draft a franchise QB once, he passed up Dan Marino and settled for Todd Blackledge.

I believe the Peterson name is cursed. Look at all the Peterson's that are up on murder charges.

We got stuck with one for G.M.

Ah.....no.

Blackledge was drafter in '83...years before Carl arrived.

That said, I agree Carl Peterson is cursed. As my Grandfather used to say, he could find a way to f*** up a wet dream.

Mecca
12-31-2007, 07:01 PM
Matt Leinart has been hurt 1 time in 6 years...I'd say that's quite different than blowing both your ACL's and tearing up your shoulder....

I'd take Leinart over Croyle right now...I fully believe he will be good, given the time. He was also a much higher pick and will get his chance...

Your spelling of Leinart and Cardinals hurts my brain..you need a spell checker.

I also don't give a **** what a guy does in practice, it's about on the field.

KC Tattoo
12-31-2007, 07:05 PM
Matt Leinart has been hurt 1 time in 6 years...I'd say that's quite different than blowing both your ACL's and tearing up your shoulder....

I'd take Leinart over Croyle right now...I fully believe he will be good, given the time. He was also a much higher pick and will get his chance...

Your spelling of Leinart and Cardinals hurts my brain..you need a spell checker.

I also don't give a **** what a guy does in practice, it's about on the field.


At any given moment a player can get hurt no matter of history. I don't really care of the spelling of Matt Lionfart or "Cardinals" either.

Mecca
12-31-2007, 07:07 PM
If you really would take Brodie Croyle over Matt Leinart...ah well people would take him over Russell too, I guess Croyle is the greatest QB prospect of the last 3 years!

dallaschiefsfan
12-31-2007, 07:11 PM
Just a general comment, if it was really something that was common like Brady or Romo and how often it gets brought up when talking 1st round QB's....

Then why do so many franchises feel they must take them with #1 picks, that should tell you how lucky a team with a late round guy is.

Then it seems we agree. I mentioned Brady and Romo as the exceptions...not the rule. Non-QB late round pics seem to have a higher percentage of undervalue on some players. Thus, if we ere...it's better to ere on the side of drafting a QB early and use our late pics for undervalued talent at other positions.

DenverDanChiefsFan
12-31-2007, 07:11 PM
"clark won't speak for another week or 2"



too late then imoWhy is it too late?

Bob Dole
12-31-2007, 07:17 PM
Why is it too late?

Because nobody who is worth a shit is sitting at home thinking, "I sure hope Carl Peterson gives me a call!"?

KC Tattoo
12-31-2007, 07:18 PM
If you really would take Brodie Croyle over Matt Leinart...ah well people would take him over Russell too, I guess Croyle is the greatest QB prospect of the last 3 years!


I would have been happy to get (sp) (Mat) Leinart at the time of the draft. My point is that injuries can happen to anybody on any given play no matter how good you are. The players take a risk everytime they step on the field.

You can't go by, he wasn't drafted #1 so he must suck or think that becouse he wasn't a first rounder that he sucks. Carr for Houston didn't protect him with the O-line and he became one of the most (if not the most) sacked QBs in NFL history. Carr is deamed a bust. #1 pick. You can find players thoughout the draft, I agree that the odds of getting the best player go up with the higher pick but there is No guarentee that he is going to pan out.

Mecca
12-31-2007, 07:19 PM
If Leinart proceeds to get hurt again and not finish seasons then he's injury prone...

Croyle gets hurt basically every single year going back to high school.

Joe Seahawk
12-31-2007, 07:47 PM
Can you picture Brodie hoisting the lombardi?

when Kitna was our QB I could never imagine him actually being good enough to win the superbowl. So i was happy when we got Hass even though he struggled for a year or two. I can definitaly see him someday winning a superbowl.

Tribal Warfare
12-31-2007, 07:50 PM
Can you picture Brodie hoisting the lombardi?




Yes, under the right situation but with the current dipshits in charge it would take a godly effort to overcome that

Mecca
12-31-2007, 07:51 PM
I can't, not at all.